Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Sun, 2014-03-16 at 13:05 +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: (Also as a reminder to self:) Please refer to offtopic list rather than bog down debian-user. Thanks Ralph for pointing me at o-t list. Apologies for raising this non-technical issue on d-u. Zenaan For those who don't know the OT list: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1394950696.9232.28.camel@archlinux
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 10:35:03AM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: On 3/15/14, John L. Ries jr...@salford-systems.com wrote: On Fri, 14 Mar 2014, Tom H wrote: On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 3:42 AM, Jonathan Dowland j...@debian.org wrote: On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 01:10:11PM +1100, Charlie Schroeder wrote: Life isn't about second guessing if you write or speak to someone if they will take offence surely? Isn't it so that you say your piece and people can take it or leave it. It's up to them. Life and the Debian user mailing list are not the same thing. You can make your own rules as to how you life and act within your own life, but within a community one must abide the community rules. At the moment, there's nothing explicitly written that dictates that one should be polite, respectful, avoid causing offence, etc., for the Debian community nor this mailing list. This is a bug which should be fixed and the project is considering the adoption of a 'code of conduct' which will replace the existing mailing list CoC. The text of the proposal is here[1]. Of particular relevance here is, I think, a community in which people feel threatened is not a healthy community. [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2014/02/msg00069.html It's sad that Debian's demeaning itself with this politically-correct rubbish. Would politically correct in this context be a perjorative for polite? It's one thing to complain about efforts to accomodate the political sensibilities of others and to hide one's own, but quite a few people now seem to regard courtesy itself as a vice. ..snip.. I think that in the long term, as the debian community (developers) formalise things like this, there are certain definite potential problems (in the long term), and frankly, I think it will be a very good thing for the community to go through those problems, because evidently it is only in the hindsight of actually experiencing such problems that many people can realise those problems, or see the folly of the things they do now - like formalising politeness into legislation (Debian policy) and formalising and condoning activities such as clandestine censorship (sorry, 'moderation') in the name of not offending the person who has apparently so offended the community that they ought be not offended by any public record of the moderation of them or their post(s). I predict the following, and mark my words: future and greater problems will arise directly from this policy (if this policy gets voted in by the developers) which future problems will only be seen by many through the experience of those problems (as in, bigger problems than the ones supposedly being 'solved' today). +1 I remember reading some advice to a new internet user: grow a thick skin. Don't remember but it remains damned good advice. In any event I strongly suggest reading/rereading http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html before rushing the publication of anything formal. Perhaps citing that to problem posters might help, perhaps not. In any event, in my not so humble opinion, thin skinned people have no business on the internet. -- Bob Holtzman Your mail is being read by tight lipped NSA agents who fail to see humor in Doctor Strangelove Key ID 8D549279 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Fri, 2014-03-14 at 23:07 -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 10:35:03AM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: [snip] +1 I remember reading some advice to a new internet user: grow a thick skin. +1 But that doesn't solve some serious issues Zenaan, some others and I dislike, where ever we live on that planet. For good reason's some of us are talking about it off-list, by a group of people from this list and also between you and me and the gatepost, sometimes using the annoying openPGP. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1394875670.3587.76.camel@archlinux
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
(Also as a reminder to self:) Please refer to offtopic list rather than bog down debian-user. Thanks Ralph for pointing me at o-t list. Apologies for raising this non-technical issue on d-u. Zenaan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAOsGNSRQ1=xdkrksde0htazkfmioh-ey6zenyoq7fsgjnrt...@mail.gmail.com
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 3:42 AM, Jonathan Dowland j...@debian.org wrote: On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 01:10:11PM +1100, Charlie Schroeder wrote: Life isn't about second guessing if you write or speak to someone if they will take offence surely? Isn't it so that you say your piece and people can take it or leave it. It's up to them. Life and the Debian user mailing list are not the same thing. You can make your own rules as to how you life and act within your own life, but within a community one must abide the community rules. At the moment, there's nothing explicitly written that dictates that one should be polite, respectful, avoid causing offence, etc., for the Debian community nor this mailing list. This is a bug which should be fixed and the project is considering the adoption of a 'code of conduct' which will replace the existing mailing list CoC. The text of the proposal is here[1]. Of particular relevance here is, I think, a community in which people feel threatened is not a healthy community. [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2014/02/msg00069.html It's sad that Debian's demeaning itself with this politically-correct rubbish. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=szjb25ftvsfnejvxlv3d_9yprys-bjdqipedk8xsvi...@mail.gmail.com
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Fri, 14 Mar 2014, Tom H wrote: On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 3:42 AM, Jonathan Dowland j...@debian.org wrote: On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 01:10:11PM +1100, Charlie Schroeder wrote: Life isn't about second guessing if you write or speak to someone if they will take offence surely? Isn't it so that you say your piece and people can take it or leave it. It's up to them. Life and the Debian user mailing list are not the same thing. You can make your own rules as to how you life and act within your own life, but within a community one must abide the community rules. At the moment, there's nothing explicitly written that dictates that one should be polite, respectful, avoid causing offence, etc., for the Debian community nor this mailing list. This is a bug which should be fixed and the project is considering the adoption of a 'code of conduct' which will replace the existing mailing list CoC. The text of the proposal is here[1]. Of particular relevance here is, I think, a community in which people feel threatened is not a healthy community. [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2014/02/msg00069.html It's sad that Debian's demeaning itself with this politically-correct rubbish. Would politically correct in this context be a perjorative for polite? It's one thing to complain about efforts to accomodate the political sensibilities of others and to hide one's own, but quite a few people now seem to regard courtesy itself as a vice. --| John L. Ries | Salford Systems | Phone: (619)543-8880 x107 | or (435)867-8885 | --| -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/alpine.LSU.2.11.1403141038300.15242@falcor.salford.riesenhaus.local
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On 3/15/14, John L. Ries jr...@salford-systems.com wrote: On Fri, 14 Mar 2014, Tom H wrote: On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 3:42 AM, Jonathan Dowland j...@debian.org wrote: On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 01:10:11PM +1100, Charlie Schroeder wrote: Life isn't about second guessing if you write or speak to someone if they will take offence surely? Isn't it so that you say your piece and people can take it or leave it. It's up to them. Life and the Debian user mailing list are not the same thing. You can make your own rules as to how you life and act within your own life, but within a community one must abide the community rules. At the moment, there's nothing explicitly written that dictates that one should be polite, respectful, avoid causing offence, etc., for the Debian community nor this mailing list. This is a bug which should be fixed and the project is considering the adoption of a 'code of conduct' which will replace the existing mailing list CoC. The text of the proposal is here[1]. Of particular relevance here is, I think, a community in which people feel threatened is not a healthy community. [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2014/02/msg00069.html It's sad that Debian's demeaning itself with this politically-correct rubbish. Would politically correct in this context be a perjorative for polite? It's one thing to complain about efforts to accomodate the political sensibilities of others and to hide one's own, but quite a few people now seem to regard courtesy itself as a vice. I can't speak for Tom, but I wouldn't say it's anything to do with just being polite, nor the expectation and encouragement of people on the list to be polite. That is a misunderstanding on your part of what someone means when they say 'this is political correctness gone too far'. I say the problem is the formalisation of politeness, and the formalisation of sanctions. In addition, in this case, clandestine moderation (fancy word for those who find censorship to be politically-incorrect) of our mailing lists has come to light, and is now being formalised. In the wake of some intensely objectionable posts to various lists (including this one, debian-user), it is hard to argue against such 'politically correct' reactions, and I myself have no simple or easy answer. There is a saying I don't remember from whom or from where, perhaps Rudolph Steiner, 'the increase in laws that a society creates is proportional to the degeneration of the internal morals of those in that society' - of course I am paraphrasing heavily. I think that in the long term, as the debian community (developers) formalise things like this, there are certain definite potential problems (in the long term), and frankly, I think it will be a very good thing for the community to go through those problems, because evidently it is only in the hindsight of actually experiencing such problems that many people can realise those problems, or see the folly of the things they do now - like formalising politeness into legislation (Debian policy) and formalising and condoning activities such as clandestine censorship (sorry, 'moderation') in the name of not offending the person who has apparently so offended the community that they ought be not offended by any public record of the moderation of them or their post(s). I predict the following, and mark my words: future and greater problems will arise directly from this policy (if this policy gets voted in by the developers) which future problems will only be seen by many through the experience of those problems (as in, bigger problems than the ones supposedly being 'solved' today). Keep well, Zenaan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAOsGNSShjh7bF3_jFjM7pa_n3=jr+0105nsor-ikpddlj+q...@mail.gmail.com
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 01:10:11PM +1100, Charlie Schroeder wrote: Life isn't about second guessing if you write or speak to someone if they will take offence surely? Isn't it so that you say your piece and people can take it or leave it. It's up to them. Life and the Debian user mailing list are not the same thing. You can make your own rules as to how you life and act within your own life, but within a community one must abide the community rules. At the moment, there's nothing explicitly written that dictates that one should be polite, respectful, avoid causing offence, etc., for the Debian community nor this mailing list. This is a bug which should be fixed and the project is considering the adoption of a 'code of conduct' which will replace the existing mailing list CoC. The text of the proposal is here[1]. Of particular relevance here is, I think, a community in which people feel threatened is not a healthy community. [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2014/02/msg00069.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140311074200.ga14...@bryant.redmars.org
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 13:10:11 +1100 (EST) Charlie Schroeder aries...@ipstarmail.com.au wrote: On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 20:14:26 -0400 Steve Litt of Troubleshooters.Com litt...@gmail.com suggested this: But as Dave said, yelling at first-time poster for a non-repeated minor mistake is just going to drive him over to Apple or back to Microsoft, and once we've driven away a few million, don't come crying to me when hardware vendors ignore Linux because almost nobody's there. The more hyperbole you use doesn't make it so. Yeah, the horse is dead, I'm going to quit beating it. [clip] Be well, Charlie Yes. I think I found a solution so everyone can be well. Although I'd hoped my newer than newbie friends would move to Debian because of its consistently stable performance, today I changed my recommendation to Xubuntu, which will doubtlessly please the tough love crowd at Debian-user, and will certainly be preferable for my friends, under the circumstances. Converting to Linux will be tough enough for my friends without their factual queries being countered with, well, you know. I don't want my friends to end up associating Linux with that kind of noise. Of course, I'm still using Debian Stable on my laptop, because it performs so darn well. And so I can communicate constructively on this list, I filtered Stan and a couple of his most ardent supporters. So, the tough love crowd wins, my friends win, and I win. Pretty cool, huh? SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140311040018.43d3208b@mydesk
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On 2014-03-11, Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote: On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 07:38:01PM -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote: Everyone is new at sometime or other. A helping hand is always welcome. Remember that honey attracts more flies than vinegar. Actually, you attract more fruit flies with vinegar than honey. Who wants to attract flies, anyway? So in this analogy Stan is Raid or something, killing flies, a pesticide. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnlhtjd8.2gv.cu...@einstein.electron.org
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Tuesday 11 March 2014 07:42:00 Jonathan Dowland wrote: On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 01:10:11PM +1100, Charlie Schroeder wrote: Life isn't about second guessing if you write or speak to someone if they will take offence surely? Isn't it so that you say your piece and people can take it or leave it. It's up to them. Life and the Debian user mailing list are not the same thing. You can make your own rules as to how you life and act within your own life, but within a community one must abide the community rules. At the moment, there's nothing explicitly written that dictates that one should be polite, respectful, avoid causing offence, etc., for the Debian community nor this mailing list. This is a bug which should be fixed and the project is considering the adoption of a 'code of conduct' which will replace the existing mailing list CoC. The text of the proposal is here[1]. Of particular relevance here is, I think, a community in which people feel threatened is not a healthy community. [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2014/02/msg00069.html What happened to: Assume good faith? Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201403110911.57910.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On 03/11/2014 03:42 AM, Jonathan Dowland wrote: snip ...the project is considering the adoption of a 'code of conduct' which will replace the existing mailing list CoC. The text of the proposal is here[1]. Of particular relevance here is, I think, a community in which people feel threatened is not a healthy community. feel threatened? Puh-leez! Cry me a river, then grow a pair. Jeff Bauer Winsted CT USA -- hangout: ##b0rked on irc.freenode.net diversion: http://alienjeff.net - visit The Fringe quote: The foundation of authority is based upon the consent of the people. - Thomas Hooker -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/531eea81.7030...@charter.net
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 09:11:57AM +, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Tuesday 11 March 2014 07:42:00 Jonathan Dowland wrote: [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2014/02/msg00069.html What happened to: Assume good faith? It's the second part of the CoC proposal that I linked to, immediately after the 'be respectful' section that I quoted. If you are interested I'd suggest reading the proposal in its entirety, feedback is probably best sent to the debian-project list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140311133006.gc25...@bryant.redmars.org
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Tuesday 11 March 2014 13:30:06 Jonathan Dowland wrote: On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 09:11:57AM +, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Tuesday 11 March 2014 07:42:00 Jonathan Dowland wrote: [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2014/02/msg00069.html What happened to: Assume good faith? It's the second part of the CoC proposal that I linked to, immediately after the 'be respectful' section that I quoted. If you are interested I'd suggest reading the proposal in its entirety, feedback is probably best sent to the debian-project list. I did read it. Where did you think that I got the quotation from? (Note the quotation marks.) I was asking why you quoted one part of the CoC proposal to suit yourself and your thesis, and ignored the the part that said Assume good faith. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201403111850.6.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 06:50:11PM +, Lisi Reisz wrote: I did read it. Where did you think that I got the quotation from? (Note the quotation marks.) OK, your point wasn't clear to me, I interpreted it as wondering whether assume good faith was absent from the proposed CoC. I was asking why you quoted one part of the CoC proposal to suit yourself and your thesis, and ignored the the part that said Assume good faith. I quoted the part that suited my point because that's what one does when trying to support a point - I didn't quote the next part because I didn't think it relevant (I don't see how it refutes the point I was trying to make). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140311201643.ga...@bryant.redmars.org
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
Note: My use of you/your etc is plural, singling out no individual Note: To everyone. Don your Kevlar and CBRN suits ;) I've been avoiding engaging this juvenile nonsense, but given some of you whiny thin skinned PC police simply will not drop this bone, apparently it's up to me to lay down the law. I'm blunt, I'm curt, I'm brash, I'm confident. I often ruffle the feathers of thin skinned users, mostly new but on occasion old hands. I make no apologies because I get things done for people on this list, and on occasion am the only member here who can get them the information they need, at the level of technical depth required. Constantly worrying about the thickness of others' skin during the process is not my responsibility, *especially* thin skinned whiny children who aren't even the recipient of an incorrectly perceived insult. Mission, project, task oriented people tend be singularly focused on the matter at hand. We don't stand around the water cooler half the day complimenting each other on our pretty new shoes and hairdos to boost each others' self esteem. We practice tough love when needed, and we don't coddle people. We enable them. We may be perceived as abrasive or insulting because we are focused on the mission and not focused on worrying about other people's fragile feelings. Their fragility is their problem, not mine. Some might describe this as akin to a military mindset, where emotions are expressly ignored, trained out of a person. I am apparently the only person on this list who practices tough love, and I'm not one bit shy about it. Posts like the OP's demand tough love, otherwise people will EXPECT to be coddled every time they have a problem. I refuse coddle people. That's giving a heroin addict free heroin. It's a disservice to them because it trains them to NOT learn and perform problem solving on their own. The give a man a fish or teach him to fish adage. It's a disservice to myself because it unnecessarily wastes valuable time, just like the need to spank people here for this childish behavior. If you want to coddle users, that's your choice. I never complain about your style do I? Likewise, if I choose to be blunt, brash, and practice tough love, which benefits myself and the other user, no one has the right to complain about my style. But the fact is, many are complaining, whining like a bunch of children. Mommy! Mommy! The bully at school called another kid a nub! Wa-wa-wa-wa-wa! This is absolutely ridiculous behavior, and it's exactly what you've been engaged in. On 3/9/2014 7:15 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: ... Really, calling the OP a nub ( whatever the hell he means by that) isn't an insult? And you think there was no condescending insulting tone overall? Dave, every aspect of life exists in a context, not a vacuum. Re-read this paragraph and explain how the context of my use of nub is an intention to levy an insult, not simply use of the phonetic shorthand for newb. On 3/8/2014 11:35 PM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: In fact, given he assumes everyone knows why he's punching the function keys, it's pretty certain he's a nub. And that's fine. But we need to know his knowledge level in order to best assist him. Do you notice the sentence And that's fine. directly after nub? And the sentence directly after that? Is this the context of an insult? Clearly not. If I was using nub as an insult, why would I immediately qualify that with And that's fine.? I wouldn't, and neither would anyone else. The context here is clear. I am using nub as a general description of knowledge level, and then stating we need to ascertain where in that range his knowledge level is in order to tailor our responses. The context of nub as an insult is simple: You're a f--king nub! It's hard to miss the difference between the two contexts is it not? So how on earth did you confuse the contexts? Tunnel vision bias? I've been using the phonetic abbreviation nub for over 15 years. Just because some urban dictionary, or some segment of the net populous decided in the last 5 years, 8 years, etc, that this is not equivalent to newb, is categorically an insult, no matter who uses it, or in any context, doesn't not make it so, just as I can declare red and blue are now swapped, which doesn't make it so. It's pretty damn sad that a 'certain' type of new users join this list, and the first post they see from me is one of my rare tough love posts such as in this thread. And even though said new users are not the recipient of the comment, they nonetheless instantly overreact, blow their top, and try to rally the list to tackle the bully. What thoughtful people do is create mail filters, without uttering a peep on or off list. I know I've been extremely vague, apologetic, and politically correct here, keeping my opinions so close to the vest. So I apologize if it has been difficult for you to decipher my cryptic comments. Cheers, -- Stan -- To
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On 3/10/2014 4:45 AM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: Note: My use of you/your etc is plural, singling out no individual Note: To everyone. Don your Kevlar and CBRN suits ;) I've been avoiding engaging this juvenile nonsense, but given some of you whiny thin skinned PC police simply will not drop this bone, apparently it's up to me to lay down the law. I'm blunt, I'm curt, I'm brash, I'm confident. I often ruffle the feathers of thin skinned users, mostly new but on occasion old hands. I make no apologies because I get things done for people on this list, and on occasion am the only member here who can get them the information they need, at the level of technical depth required. Constantly worrying about the thickness of others' skin during the process is not my responsibility, *especially* thin skinned whiny children who aren't even the recipient of an incorrectly perceived insult. Mission, project, task oriented people tend be singularly focused on the matter at hand. We don't stand around the water cooler half the day complimenting each other on our pretty new shoes and hairdos to boost each others' self esteem. We practice tough love when needed, and we don't coddle people. We enable them. We may be perceived as abrasive or insulting because we are focused on the mission and not focused on worrying about other people's fragile feelings. Their fragility is their problem, not mine. Some might describe this as akin to a military mindset, where emotions are expressly ignored, trained out of a person. I am apparently the only person on this list who practices tough love, and I'm not one bit shy about it. Posts like the OP's demand tough love, otherwise people will EXPECT to be coddled every time they have a problem. I refuse coddle people. That's giving a heroin addict free heroin. It's a disservice to them because it trains them to NOT learn and perform problem solving on their own. The give a man a fish or teach him to fish adage. It's a disservice to myself because it unnecessarily wastes valuable time, just like the need to spank people here for this childish behavior. If you want to coddle users, that's your choice. I never complain about your style do I? Likewise, if I choose to be blunt, brash, and practice tough love, which benefits myself and the other user, no one has the right to complain about my style. But the fact is, many are complaining, whining like a bunch of children. Mommy! Mommy! The bully at school called another kid a nub! Wa-wa-wa-wa-wa! This is absolutely ridiculous behavior, and it's exactly what you've been engaged in. On 3/9/2014 7:15 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: ... Really, calling the OP a nub ( whatever the hell he means by that) isn't an insult? And you think there was no condescending insulting tone overall? Dave, every aspect of life exists in a context, not a vacuum. Re-read this paragraph and explain how the context of my use of nub is an intention to levy an insult, not simply use of the phonetic shorthand for newb. On 3/8/2014 11:35 PM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: In fact, given he assumes everyone knows why he's punching the function keys, it's pretty certain he's a nub. And that's fine. But we need to know his knowledge level in order to best assist him. Do you notice the sentence And that's fine. directly after nub? And the sentence directly after that? Is this the context of an insult? Clearly not. If I was using nub as an insult, why would I immediately qualify that with And that's fine.? I wouldn't, and neither would anyone else. The context here is clear. I am using nub as a general description of knowledge level, and then stating we need to ascertain where in that range his knowledge level is in order to tailor our responses. The context of nub as an insult is simple: You're a f--king nub! It's hard to miss the difference between the two contexts is it not? So how on earth did you confuse the contexts? Tunnel vision bias? I've been using the phonetic abbreviation nub for over 15 years. Just because some urban dictionary, or some segment of the net populous decided in the last 5 years, 8 years, etc, that this is not equivalent to newb, is categorically an insult, no matter who uses it, or in any context, doesn't not make it so, just as I can declare red and blue are now swapped, which doesn't make it so. It's pretty damn sad that a 'certain' type of new users join this list, and the first post they see from me is one of my rare tough love posts such as in this thread. And even though said new users are not the recipient of the comment, they nonetheless instantly overreact, blow their top, and try to rally the list to tackle the bully. What thoughtful people do is create mail filters, without uttering a peep on or off list. I know I've been extremely vague, apologetic, and politically correct here, keeping my opinions so close to the vest. So I apologize if it has been difficult for you to decipher my cryptic
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 01:42:09AM +, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Monday 10 March 2014 00:15:18 Dave Woyciesjes wrote: Really, calling the OP a nub ( whatever the hell he means by that) isn't an insult? nub, short for newbie, i.e. new user. And no, it is not an insult. Lisi In the British war film Triple Cross, the comment Anfänger (beginner) was considered the insult of his life by a German colonel (Gert Fröbe). ;-) Wilko Education is a man's going from cocksure ignorance to thoughtful uncertainty. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140310133357.ga4...@fok01.laje.edewe.de
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On 03/09/2014 09:42 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Monday 10 March 2014 00:15:18 Dave Woyciesjes wrote: Really, calling the OP a nub ( whatever the hell he means by that) isn't an insult? nub, short for newbie, i.e. new user. And no, it is not an insult. Lisi Ahh, thanks. In my travels, when one wanted to refer to a new user, they just used newbie. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 Computers have lots of memory but no imagination. The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back. - from some guy on the internet. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/531dc682.8080...@sbcglobal.net
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On 03/09/2014 11:05 PM, Scott Ferguson wrote: On 10/03/14 11:15, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: On 03/09/2014 06:09 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Du, 09 mar 14, 01:39:56, Steve Litt of Troubleshooters.Com wrote: snipped Really, calling the OP a nub ( whatever the hell he means by that) isn't an insult? And you think there was no condescending insulting tone overall? If you don't know what the word means how did you determine it was an insult? (or was that the insult?). Reading comprehension skills. You sound like it offended you personally - which um, seems misplaced. No, not personally offended; just irritated at the near holier-than-thou attitude that seem to come up all too often in support mailing lists. Personally I believed these sort of personal criticisms belonged off-line, but I'll make an exception in this case - in deference to your extensively qualified authority. Regards P.S. Please wrap you lines at 78 characters or less (72 is common), if nothing else it may mitigate your critique on how things should be done. Set at 72 for a while now. Now sure how it'll mitigate my critique, but I'll trust you on that. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 Computers have lots of memory but no imagination. The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back. - from some guy on the internet. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/531dc84c.7010...@sbcglobal.net
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On 03/10/2014 04:45 AM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: Note: My use of you/your etc is plural, singling out no individual Note: To everyone. Don your Kevlar and CBRN suits ;) I've been avoiding engaging this juvenile nonsense, but given some of you whiny thin skinned PC police simply will not drop this bone, apparently it's up to me to lay down the law. I'm blunt, I'm curt, I'm brash, I'm confident. I often ruffle the feathers of thin skinned users, mostly new but on occasion old hands. I make no apologies because I get things done for people on this list, and on occasion am the only member here who can get them the information they need, at the level of technical depth required. Constantly worrying about the thickness of others' skin during the process is not my responsibility, *especially* thin skinned whiny children who aren't even the recipient of an incorrectly perceived insult. Mission, project, task oriented people tend be singularly focused on the matter at hand. We don't stand around the water cooler half the day complimenting each other on our pretty new shoes and hairdos to boost each others' self esteem. We practice tough love when needed, and we don't coddle people. We enable them. We may be perceived as abrasive or insulting because we are focused on the mission and not focused on worrying about other people's fragile feelings. Their fragility is their problem, not mine. Some might describe this as akin to a military mindset, where emotions are expressly ignored, trained out of a person. I am apparently the only person on this list who practices tough love, and I'm not one bit shy about it. Posts like the OP's demand tough love, otherwise people will EXPECT to be coddled every time they have a problem. I refuse coddle people. That's giving a heroin addict free heroin. It's a disservice to them because it trains them to NOT learn and perform problem solving on their own. The give a man a fish or teach him to fish adage. It's a disservice to myself because it unnecessarily wastes valuable time, just like the need to spank people here for this childish behavior. If you want to coddle users, that's your choice. I never complain about your style do I? Likewise, if I choose to be blunt, brash, and practice tough love, which benefits myself and the other user, no one has the right to complain about my style. But the fact is, many are complaining, whining like a bunch of children. Mommy! Mommy! The bully at school called another kid a nub! Wa-wa-wa-wa-wa! This is absolutely ridiculous behavior, and it's exactly what you've been engaged in. On 3/9/2014 7:15 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: ... Really, calling the OP a nub ( whatever the hell he means by that) isn't an insult? And you think there was no condescending insulting tone overall? Dave, every aspect of life exists in a context, not a vacuum. Re-read this paragraph and explain how the context of my use of nub is an intention to levy an insult, not simply use of the phonetic shorthand for newb. Words depend on context, yes. But there is also the overall tone of a message. A more subtle part of communication. The phoentic would be noob. Which is part of my confusion. That and having never seen the word nub used in the context like you had On 3/8/2014 11:35 PM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: In fact, given he assumes everyone knows why he's punching the function keys, it's pretty certain he's a nub. And that's fine. But we need to know his knowledge level in order to best assist him. Do you notice the sentence And that's fine. directly after nub? And the sentence directly after that? Is this the context of an insult? Clearly not. If I was using nub as an insult, why would I immediately qualify that with And that's fine.? I wouldn't, and neither would anyone else. The context here is clear. I am using nub as a general description of knowledge level, and then stating we need to ascertain where in that range his knowledge level is in order to tailor our responses. The context of nub as an insult is simple: You're a f--king nub! It's hard to miss the difference between the two contexts is it not? So how on earth did you confuse the contexts? Tunnel vision bias? I've been using the phonetic abbreviation nub for over 15 years. Just because some urban dictionary, or some segment of the net populous decided in the last 5 years, 8 years, etc, that this is not equivalent to newb, is categorically an insult, no matter who uses it, or in any context, doesn't not make it so, just as I can declare red and blue are now swapped, which doesn't make it so. It's pretty damn sad that a 'certain' type of new users join this list, and the first post they see from me is one of my rare tough love posts such as in this thread. And even though said new users are not the recipient of the comment, they nonetheless instantly overreact, blow their top, and try to rally the list to tackle the bully. What thoughtful people do
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On 03/10/2014 08:29 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 3/10/2014 4:45 AM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: I've been using the phonetic abbreviation nub for over 15 years Knowledge is not an excuse for being an anal orifice. And just because you've been using something wrong for over 15 years does not make it any better. You can define something any way you want. It's how the rest of the world defines it that counts. And if anyone is being childish about this, it is you. Now, I'm not saying he was using nub wrong; just stated that I never heard of it used in that context. Now that it was explained to me, I understand his intent. His tone delivery, however, was about as smooth as a porcupine wearing 80 grit sandpaper underwear. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 Computers have lots of memory but no imagination. The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back. - from some guy on the internet. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/531dcf2a.8020...@sbcglobal.net
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Monday 10 March 2014 14:34:43 Dave Woyciesjes wrote: It's pretty damn sad that a 'certain' type of new users join this list, and the first post they see from me is one of my rare tough love posts such as in this thread. And even though said new users are not the recipient of the comment, they nonetheless instantly overreact, blow their top, and try to rally the list to tackle the bully. What thoughtful people do is create mail filters, without uttering a peep on or off list. Nah, I haven't gotten anywhere close to blowing my top. And I'm not trying to rally anyone. If the cap fits?? Your name wasn't mentioned! Tho' I agree that it is not too difficult sometimes to know if one was meant. Stan may be abrasive, as he would be the first to admit. But he is very knowledgeable and very ready to use this knowledge to help others. If he upsets you as much as he appears to do, why don't you just null-file him? Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201403101447.04913.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Mon, 10 Mar 2014, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: On 03/10/2014 04:45 AM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: Note: My use of you/your etc is plural, singling out no individual Note: To everyone. Don your Kevlar and CBRN suits ;) I've been avoiding engaging this juvenile nonsense, but given some of you whiny thin skinned PC police simply will not drop this bone, apparently it's up to me to lay down the law. I'm blunt, I'm curt, I'm brash, I'm confident. I often ruffle the feathers of thin skinned users, mostly new but on occasion old hands. I make no apologies because I get things done for people on this list, and on occasion am the only member here who can get them the information they need, at the level of technical depth required. Constantly worrying about the thickness of others' skin during the process is not my responsibility, *especially* thin skinned whiny children who aren't even the recipient of an incorrectly perceived insult. As difficult as it is for some people to believe, tact and courtesy are virtues, not vices. I've been doing tech support for at least 15 years and firmly believe that there is no such thing as a stupid question (what's obvious to one person isn't necessarily obvious to anyone else). And people can be tactfully told to RTM (to include reading FAQs) when it's appropriate to do so. In my case, I'll cite the manual when the answer is there. --| John L. Ries | Salford Systems | Phone: (619)543-8880 x107 | or (435)867-8885 | --| -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/alpine.LSU.2.11.1403100842300.21668@falcor.salford.riesenhaus.local
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On 03/10/2014 10:47 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Monday 10 March 2014 14:34:43 Dave Woyciesjes wrote: It's pretty damn sad that a 'certain' type of new users join this list, and the first post they see from me is one of my rare tough love posts such as in this thread. And even though said new users are not the recipient of the comment, they nonetheless instantly overreact, blow their top, and try to rally the list to tackle the bully. What thoughtful people do is create mail filters, without uttering a peep on or off list. Nah, I haven't gotten anywhere close to blowing my top. And I'm not trying to rally anyone. If the cap fits?? Your name wasn't mentioned! Tho' I agree that it is not too difficult sometimes to know if one was meant. :) True, point taken. He did say it was not directed at any one person; but given the way he wrote it, it certainly came across as directed for me. Stan may be abrasive, as he would be the first to admit. But he is very knowledgeable and very ready to use this knowledge to help others. If he upsets you as much as he appears to do, why don't you just null-file him? He didn't upset me that much; just irritated at his less than friendly response. It's attitudes like that that keep people away from Debian Linux. As for ignoring his messages, that is a catch-22. I can't knock his knowledge (seems he does know Debian very well, and I have no idea on the rest of his resume); and if I'm following a thread that he responds to; it'd be irritating to have a hole in the conversation. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 Computers have lots of memory but no imagination. The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back. - from some guy on the internet. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/531dd6ff.2090...@sbcglobal.net
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Mon, 2014-03-10 at 10:34 -0400, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: . . . The phoentic would be noob. Which is part of my confusion. That and having never seen the word nub used in the context like you had When I first read the sentence with nub in it I was completely confused because I was reading it to rhyme with the English words cub, rub and tub. Two common meanings for that pronunciation are 1) a knob or stub, as in the nub of a cut-off finger, and 2) the heart or core of something, as in the nub of the problem (I'd guess the second meaning is the root of the Haskell function 'nub' which returns the list of elements of a list with all duplicates removed). Anyway after reading the post more carefully I guessed that nub was being used for newb, and I conjectured that the writer was such a newb he didn't know how to spell newb; obviously I was very wrong about that, sorry! So perhaps the International Committee for the Preservation of the One True Jargon will call a plenary session and vote to change the spelling to nube, in analogy with the English words cube, rube and tube, all rhyming with newb. *sigh* Probably not. -- Bill Wood -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1394481628.9425.4.camel@bills-debian
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 11:15:11 -0400 Dave Woyciesjes sent: It's attitudes like that that keep people away from Debian Linux. Do you think so? Or is it that people are accustomed to having it all done for them, just turn the key and the engine fires up? That attitude should be ignored if one is interested in the assistance required to do what they want. But if not, it rather prepares a new user for the RTFM remark and that they have to take a few knocks and get back up again. Isn't that what life is all about? Be well, Charlie -- Registered Linux User:- 329524 *** Judge of a man by his questions rather than by his answers. ...Voltaire *** Debian GNU/Linux - just the best way to create magic - -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140311081612.6f341a1f@taogypsy.wildlife
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On 3/10/2014 5:16 PM, Charlie wrote: On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 11:15:11 -0400 Dave Woyciesjes sent: It's attitudes like that that keep people away from Debian Linux. Do you think so? Or is it that people are accustomed to having it all done for them, just turn the key and the engine fires up? That attitude should be ignored if one is interested in the assistance required to do what they want. But if not, it rather prepares a new user for the RTFM remark and that they have to take a few knocks and get back up again. Isn't that what life is all about? Be well, Charlie The problem is, new users don't necessarily know what questions to ask, must less what manual to look in. I started with Unix back in the early 90's (actually used it long before that - but that was only a user on a remote terminal). There weren't that many books on it at that time, and the WWW didn't exist yet. Fortunately, I had a couple of good friends who knew Unix. I probably drove them crazy with all of my questions. Everyone is new at sometime or other. A helping hand is always welcome. Remember that honey attracts more flies than vinegar. Jerry Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/531e4cd9.1090...@attglobal.net
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 08:16:12 +1100 Charlie aries...@ipstarmail.com.au wrote: On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 11:15:11 -0400 Dave Woyciesjes sent: It's attitudes like that that keep people away from Debian Linux. Do you think so? I definitely think so. And if we ever want our OS of choice to have sufficient market share and mindshare that hardware vendors make their goods Linux compatible, we'd better quit blowing away potential Linux people by insulting them (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nub) when they make a minor mistake. Or is it that people are accustomed to having it all done for them, just turn the key and the engine fires up? Mailing list participants aren't digital. They all don't fall into the guru category or the having it all done for them category. Those with dumb symptom descriptions, civilly let them know about How to ask questions the smart way, or, if there are just one or two unclarities, ask clarifying questions. Or ignore their questions and let other answer. The few who continually ask dumb questions, just filter them out -- procmail's easy and life's too short. But as Dave said, yelling at first-time poster for a non-repeated minor mistake is just going to drive him over to Apple or back to Microsoft, and once we've driven away a few million, don't come crying to me when hardware vendors ignore Linux because almost nobody's there. That attitude should be ignored if one is interested in the assistance required to do what they want. But if not, it rather prepares a new user for the RTFM remark and that they have to take a few knocks and get back up again. Isn't that what life is all about? I don't think that's what life's about, nor do I think it prepares the new user for anything. If I forget my turn signal in traffic and the guy behind me gets out of his car yelling and screaming at me, he has a problem. If a guy posts about wifi and function keys and someone calls him a total nub (see Urban Dictionary definition), then the nub-caller has a problem. Which is fine, except one of those problems leads to road rage, and the other loses yet another Linux user and gives the hardware vendors even more reason to ignore Linux compatibility. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140310201426.7bdadc7d@mydesk
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
Hi Stan, There is no denying you can be abrupt at times, nor can it be denied you're quite helpful. Bravo and keep up the good work. Mike On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 03:45:37AM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: Note: My use of you/your etc is plural, singling out no individual Note: To everyone. Don your Kevlar and CBRN suits ;) snip Cheers, -- Stan -- Goodness will be rewarded with goodness. - Chinese proverb -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140310165622.GA8529@playground
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 07:38:01PM -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote: Everyone is new at sometime or other. A helping hand is always welcome. Remember that honey attracts more flies than vinegar. Actually, you attract more fruit flies with vinegar than honey. -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140311011050.GA8148@tal
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 20:14:26 -0400 Steve Litt of Troubleshooters.Com litt...@gmail.com suggested this: But as Dave said, yelling at first-time poster for a non-repeated minor mistake is just going to drive him over to Apple or back to Microsoft, and once we've driven away a few million, don't come crying to me when hardware vendors ignore Linux because almost nobody's there. The more hyperbole you use doesn't make it so. I'm not even certain there was yelling? But I don't recall; were capitals used? Anyway, I won't. Come crying to you I mean. Like the man said, if you talk to someone in any way, or use a word that they haven't asked to be clarified, you don't know if you're going to offend them. Life isn't about second guessing if you write or speak to someone if they will take offence surely? Isn't it so that you say your piece and people can take it or leave it. It's up to them. Yes, It's up to them and if they're children, maybe their Mum. Did the OP take offence, and if they did, it's their fault. You only take what you can handle. But your opinion is not lesser than any other. Be well, Charlie -- ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** Registered Linux User:- 329524 *** People imagine enlightenment will make them incredibly powerful. And it does. It makes you the most powerful being in all the universe—but usually no one else notices. -BRAD WARNER *** Debian GNU/Linux - just the best way to create magic ___ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/32319565.181181394503811959.javamail.r...@mail.goipstar.com
On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Du, 09 mar 14, 01:39:56, Steve Litt of Troubleshooters.Com wrote: [big snip] Everyone, The least you could do when you hijack a thread would be to change the subject, otherwise you'll be swamping the OP with OT chatter that doesn't even help him (quite the contrary). Doesn't it seem that, on every list and IRC channel, there's always that guy? The defender of the perfect symptom description, who has completely memorized every portion of How To Ask Questions The Smart Way except for the portion on how to answer questions in a helpful way. The vigilante who just has to jump on every less than perfectly clued-in post and insult the guy. I'm not talking about insulting the dweeb who asks, then doesn't even read the answers, and asks again. I'm not talking about insulting the guy asking the question that a two minute web search can find the answer to. I'm talking about the guy who insults people like the original poster, whose symptom description wasn't all that bad, at least for a first stab at it. A symptom description that others felt was good enough to suggest diagnostic processes. Nope, pretty much everyone was stabbing in the dark due to lack of information. Now, there's a good chance one of these stabs actually hits the target (my money is on firmware), but pretty much everyone assumed the OP is able to identify the correct firmware package and install it by himself (if his WiFi is not working he might not even have easy access to the internet). The angry and insulting behavior of the defenders of the perfect symptom description does nothing but cut down on technical communication, raise the noise level, and often raise the heat level. Why do that? I mean really, is it too much to ask that these guys simply ignore posts they think are bogus? Or if the thread bothers them, filter the thread? The list will be better for it. Stan has helped a lot of people with his expertise, especially when it comes to hardware. His style is definitely blunt and can often be perceived as insulting, but I read his initial reply several times and in my very humble opinion there was no insult. As far as I'm concerned the take home message is: The lack of detail in your problem report suggests you have never used Linux, or that you've never participated in a technical forum. Please tell us your Linux skill level so we can reply with appropriate level of instruction. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On 03/09/2014 06:09 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Du, 09 mar 14, 01:39:56, Steve Litt of Troubleshooters.Com wrote: [big snip] Everyone, The least you could do when you hijack a thread would be to change the subject, otherwise you'll be swamping the OP with OT chatter that doesn't even help him (quite the contrary). Doesn't it seem that, on every list and IRC channel, there's always that guy? The defender of the perfect symptom description, who has completely memorized every portion of How To Ask Questions The Smart Way except for the portion on how to answer questions in a helpful way. The vigilante who just has to jump on every less than perfectly clued-in post and insult the guy. I'm not talking about insulting the dweeb who asks, then doesn't even read the answers, and asks again. I'm not talking about insulting the guy asking the question that a two minute web search can find the answer to. I'm talking about the guy who insults people like the original poster, whose symptom description wasn't all that bad, at least for a first stab at it. A symptom description that others felt was good enough to suggest diagnostic processes. Nope, pretty much everyone was stabbing in the dark due to lack of information. Now, there's a good chance one of these stabs actually hits the target (my money is on firmware), but pretty much everyone assumed the OP is able to identify the correct firmware package and install it by himself (if his WiFi is not working he might not even have easy access to the internet). The angry and insulting behavior of the defenders of the perfect symptom description does nothing but cut down on technical communication, raise the noise level, and often raise the heat level. Why do that? I mean really, is it too much to ask that these guys simply ignore posts they think are bogus? Or if the thread bothers them, filter the thread? The list will be better for it. Stan has helped a lot of people with his expertise, especially when it comes to hardware. His style is definitely blunt and can often be perceived as insulting, but I read his initial reply several times and in my very humble opinion there was no insult. As far as I'm concerned the take home message is: The lack of detail in your problem report suggests you have never used Linux, or that you've never participated in a technical forum. Please tell us your Linux skill level so we can reply with appropriate level of instruction. Kind regards, Andrei Really, calling the OP a nub ( whatever the hell he means by that) isn't an insult? And you think there was no condescending insulting tone overall? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 Computers have lots of memory but no imagination. The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back. - from some guy on the internet. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/531d0416.1070...@sbcglobal.net
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic TIA, Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1394411067.7776.110.camel@archlinux
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Monday 10 March 2014 00:15:18 Dave Woyciesjes wrote: Really, calling the OP a nub ( whatever the hell he means by that) isn't an insult? nub, short for newbie, i.e. new user. And no, it is not an insult. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201403100142.09311.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On 3/9/2014 9:42 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Monday 10 March 2014 00:15:18 Dave Woyciesjes wrote: Really, calling the OP a nub ( whatever the hell he means by that) isn't an insult? nub, short for newbie, i.e. new user. And no, it is not an insult. Lisi Maybe not where you are. But here in the United States it is considered quite derogatory. Newbie is the term we use here for a new user. Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/531d1b79.5050...@attglobal.net
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 21:55:05 -0400 Jerry Stuckle jstuc...@attglobal.net wrote: On 3/9/2014 9:42 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Monday 10 March 2014 00:15:18 Dave Woyciesjes wrote: Really, calling the OP a nub ( whatever the hell he means by that) isn't an insult? nub, short for newbie, i.e. new user. And no, it is not an insult. Lisi Maybe not where you are. But here in the United States it is considered quite derogatory. Newbie is the term we use here for a new user. Jerry True. I've seen noob referring to newbie, but not nub. So I looked it up on UrbanDictionary.Com, the authoritative reference on all things slang, and it appears that nub is not merely noob, it's much more insulting: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nub Also, consider the context in which it was said. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140309230455.38f7f6d6@mydesk
Re: On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]
On 10/03/14 11:15, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: On 03/09/2014 06:09 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Du, 09 mar 14, 01:39:56, Steve Litt of Troubleshooters.Com wrote: snipped Really, calling the OP a nub ( whatever the hell he means by that) isn't an insult? And you think there was no condescending insulting tone overall? If you don't know what the word means how did you determine it was an insult? (or was that the insult?). You sound like it offended you personally - which um, seems misplaced. Personally I believed these sort of personal criticisms belonged off-line, but I'll make an exception in this case - in deference to your extensively qualified authority. Regards P.S. Please wrap you lines at 78 characters or less (72 is common), if nothing else it may mitigate your critique on how things should be done. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/531d2c08.9070...@gmail.com
