Re: Debian Lenny Based SimplyMEPIS 8.0 is Released
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:58:35 -0800, Jimmy Johnson wrote: [...] I agree with what you say, but is not the case with Debian-Live it only covers amd64 and i386. Great for a desktop system Jimmy, however, Debian is for more than just desktop systems. You have stated a preference for live CDs and in a limited and closed situation like that, the one click solution is easier to implement. On an installed system where a sys admin may even have compiled some of the software and, possibly, put it in a non-standard location, it can be a non-trivial task to make a one click solution. Perhaps the 1000+ devs of Debian are not as intelligent as Warren or perhaps they collaborate on decisions, consensus isn't reached easily in a large group and democratic vote almost always means some people don't get their way. Referring to another comment you made: Some of them Debian devs are old dogs too, I suspect the inability to work well with others has more to do with personality than age. Our world view is often affected by our experience and emotion, even our mental state at the time. Please don't flame me with another of your personal emails, reply to the list for peer review. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian Lenny Based SimplyMEPIS 8.0 is Released
Jimmy Johnson field.engin...@gmail.com writes: H.S. wrote: Jimmy Johnson wrote: Neil Ellwood wrote: Personally I haven't found anything easier than Debian and it is more reliable than anything else I have tried. Why use a derivative when the original is marvellous? Hi Neil, I'm along time Debian user (7 years) and if there was something wrong with Mepis I would not suggest you trying it, saying that, Mepis has one click tools that Debian don't have, like it will repair grub for you with a click or reinstall a working x-configuration for you with a Wonderful! Repairing grub and X with a click seems to be very useful to desktop users. Can't Mepis give back to Debian by providing these packages to Debian repos? Other such GUI conveniences too. Mepis (Warren Woodford) has given plenty to the community Mepis was the first non-Windows distro that I used, and it is indeed a fine product. However, I eventually moved on to Debian, in part because Mepis was a (wonderful) one-man show, and not a community project, and the unique software elements that distinguished it from other distros (the one-click config tools you refer too) were subject to proprietary licensing. Has Warren since changed his position on licensing his own programs? If he has, all Debian needs is someone to package them up, and I'm not sure why the failure of one individual Debian maintainer to do so is a show-stopper here. If the tools are good (which I suspect they are) and are available as Free Software, there is no barrier to any debian maintainer picking them up. But I think you need to dig into your documentation and see if you can find the licenses that apply to the tools you're talking about. I couldn't find anything on the Mepis website. Last I looked, they were not Free Software. If Warren still hasn't released his tools under a Free license, I would question the statement that Warren has given plenty to the community. But the idea of community seems to mean two very different things in this context. In the Debian system, the community includes hundreds of developers who collaborate to produce the distro, and thousands of users who collaborate to provide support in various fora. In Mepis, the community appears to be only the latter: the very supportive user community. Development is still pretty much restricted to Warren and a small team of helpers. As I said, it's been years since I used Mepis, so I'm admittedly out of touch. But at the time I left, there were barriers on the Mepis side that would prevent the adoption of any of the great tools developed there for inclusion in Debian. I would be happy to be corrected on these points, though. Cheers, Tyler -- Only YOU can stop forest fires. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian Lenny Based SimplyMEPIS 8.0 is Released
tyler tyler.sm...@mail.mcgill.ca writes: Has Warren since changed his position on licensing his own programs? Apologies for replying to my own post, but I did some more digging, and apparently the Mepis tools have indeed been released under a Free Software license: http://mepislovers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=17736highlight=license+apache So now the Mepis-specific tools are available to Debian users as well, potentially. That's good news! Cheers, Tyler -- Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely. --Edward Tufte http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/ppt2.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian Lenny Based SimplyMEPIS 8.0 is Released
tyler wrote: Jimmy Johnson writes: If Warren still hasn't released his tools under a Free license, I would question the statement that Warren has given plenty to the community. He gave his life savings to the development of Mepis and is now living hand to mouth, what else do you want, maybe he should bleed for you. What have you done but judge others? I didn't mean to imply that there was anything wrong with what Warren has accomplished with Mepis. It's a fantastic distro, without question, and without it I may not have been able to switch from Windows to Linux. But for a long time, it was impossible for the developers of any other distro to build on his work because of the license he was using. That meant that he had created a new community of Mepis users (Mepis lovers, more accurately!), and for those people he did indeed provide a great service. But until he released his code under an Apache license, which I now understand he did last year, he was not contributing to the Debian or Ubuntu communities. He tried, but maybe he don't work well with others or others don't work well with him, things like that can be hard for an old dog. :) Tyler, the tools are hardly more than a scripts that have been wrapped in a GUI, I think you blow this thing way out of proportion and you are not very constructive. The issue I was addressing was why Debian has not incorporated these tools. In that instance, it doesn't matter at all if they are simple scripts or massive binaries. The only thing that matters is if they are available under a free software license. When I last used Mepis, they weren't. I did some more searching, and I see that Warren has indeed released his tools under an Apache license. That's fantastic news, and I hope his work does make it's way into Debian. Cheers, Tyler -- Jimmy Johnson Bakersfield, CA. U.S.A. Registered Linux User #380263 K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple stupid) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian Lenny Based SimplyMEPIS 8.0 is Released
Neil Ellwood wrote: Personally I haven't found anything easier than Debian and it is more reliable than anything else I have tried. Why use a derivative when the original is marvellous? Hi Neil, I'm along time Debian user (7 years) and if there was something wrong with Mepis I would not suggest you trying it, saying that, Mepis has one click tools that Debian don't have, like it will repair grub for you with a click or reinstall a working x-configuration for you with a click, install and save /home with a click, add and remove users with a click, check file-systems with a click, the list goes on... Sure these things can be done without One Click Linux, but why? One day the Debian Live CD Project may create such a live cd but not today. :) -- Jimmy Johnson Bakersfield, CA. U.S.A. Registered Linux User #380263 K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple stupid) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian Lenny Based SimplyMEPIS 8.0 is Released
On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 10:01 PM, Jimmy Johnson field.engin...@gmail.comwrote: Neil Ellwood wrote: Personally I haven't found anything easier than Debian and it is more reliable than anything else I have tried. Why use a derivative when the original is marvellous? Hi Neil, I'm along time Debian user (7 years) and if there was something wrong with Mepis I would not suggest you trying it, saying that, Mepis has one click tools that Debian don't have, like it will repair grub for you with a click or reinstall a working x-configuration for you with a click, install and save /home with a click, add and remove users with a click, check file-systems with a click, the list goes on... Sure these things can be done without One Click Linux, but why? Sure all these apps would be welcome to debian. I don't know, but should be greateful to see collaboration efforts (and not only forks). Best applications from debian derivates should be on debian too. Regards,
Re: Debian Lenny Based SimplyMEPIS 8.0 is Released
Jimmy Johnson wrote: Neil Ellwood wrote: Personally I haven't found anything easier than Debian and it is more reliable than anything else I have tried. Why use a derivative when the original is marvellous? Hi Neil, I'm along time Debian user (7 years) and if there was something wrong with Mepis I would not suggest you trying it, saying that, Mepis has one click tools that Debian don't have, like it will repair grub for you with a click or reinstall a working x-configuration for you with a Wonderful! Repairing grub and X with a click seems to be very useful to desktop users. Can't Mepis give back to Debian by providing these packages to Debian repos? Other such GUI conveniences too. -- Please reply to this list only. I read this list on its corresponding newsgroup on gmane.org. Replies sent to my email address are just filtered to a folder in my mailbox and get periodically deleted without ever having been read. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian Lenny Based SimplyMEPIS 8.0 is Released
Wonderful! Repairing grub and X with a click seems to be very useful to desktop users. Can't Mepis give back to Debian by providing these packages to Debian repos? Other such GUI conveniences too. Not all of these GUI packages might be GPL, or free, so may not be possible to be in the Debian repos. I could be wrong of course. Kelly -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian Lenny Based SimplyMEPIS 8.0 is Released
Jimmy Johnson wrote: Hi Neil, I'm along time Debian user (7 years) and if there was something wrong with Mepis I would not suggest you trying it, saying that, Mepis has one click tools that Debian don't have, like it will repair grub for you with a click or reinstall a working x-configuration for you with a click, install and save /home with a click, add and remove users with a click, check file-systems with a click, the list goes on... Sure these things can be done without One Click Linux, but why? One day the Debian Live CD Project may create such a live cd but not today. :) I do love Debian, even as frustrating as it may be at times. I would hope one of the projects goals is to make using it easier and easier with each release. I do agree with Jimmy, what is wrong with One Click Linux? Being able to prove that your above it? Regardless those in the know would be able to tinker away to their hearts desire, while defaulting to and making available an easier generally user wide system. Sometimes I'm reminded of the scene in Indiana Jones when Jones is faced with the sword carrying-spinning-putting on a huge show enemy, Jones stands there for a second in appreciation of this mans skill, pulls out a pistol, shoots him then moves on. I'd love to see some of these tools make it to Debian. http://www.xkcd.com/530/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian Lenny Based SimplyMEPIS 8.0 is Released
H.S. wrote: Jimmy Johnson wrote: Neil Ellwood wrote: Personally I haven't found anything easier than Debian and it is more reliable than anything else I have tried. Why use a derivative when the original is marvellous? Hi Neil, I'm along time Debian user (7 years) and if there was something wrong with Mepis I would not suggest you trying it, saying that, Mepis has one click tools that Debian don't have, like it will repair grub for you with a click or reinstall a working x-configuration for you with a Wonderful! Repairing grub and X with a click seems to be very useful to desktop users. Can't Mepis give back to Debian by providing these packages to Debian repos? Other such GUI conveniences too. Mepis (Warren Woodford) has given plenty to the community and he is not untouchable, it's Debian that needs to take the initiative, I contacted Daniel Baumann (Debian Live) about trying Mepis and he said he wanted to and would give Mepis a try, but in the time he said he would, he did not. I think Daniel has the same mind as Klaus Knopper and that is that the live cd is a tool and not meant to be installed. So if you guys want tools in Debian you need to talk to the Debian Dev's or KDE Dev's or Gnome Dev's, but I think it's best as a Live CD and Daniel is the Dev for that. -- Jimmy Johnson Bakersfield, CA. U.S.A. Registered Linux User #380263 K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple stupid) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian Lenny Based SimplyMEPIS 8.0 is Released
Daryl Styrk wrote: Jimmy Johnson wrote: Hi Neil, I'm along time Debian user (7 years) and if there was something wrong with Mepis I would not suggest you trying it, saying that, Mepis has one click tools that Debian don't have, like it will repair grub for you with a click or reinstall a working x-configuration for you with a click, install and save /home with a click, add and remove users with a click, check file-systems with a click, the list goes on... Sure these things can be done without One Click Linux, but why? One day the Debian Live CD Project may create such a live cd but not today. :) I do love Debian, even as frustrating as it may be at times. I would hope one of the projects goals is to make using it easier and easier with each release. I do agree with Jimmy, what is wrong with One Click Linux? Being able to prove that your above it? Regardless those in the know would be able to tinker away to their hearts desire, while defaulting to and making available an easier generally user wide system. I'm just guessing here about whether or not this issue applies to these specific tools people are talking about, but one issue that has often prevented quick uptake of some tools/implementations/ideas from Debian derivatives into Debian proper is that Debian proper supports a much wider range of architectures than any Debian derivative I know of. Mepis, for example, just supports x86 hardware. Ubuntu is the same. Ubuntu used to support PPC, but I'm pretty sure they dropped it. Debian supports those plus SPARC, ARM, MIPS, IA-64 (different from x86-64, or amd64), and others I've never heard of let alone ever seen. They don't call it the universal operating system for nothing. I think only NetBSD, 'the operating system you can run on your toaster,' supports more architectures, but my impressions may be outdated. Anyway, the advantage for computer users the world over is that Debian is an option available to them when other distros are not. The disadvantage from the perspective of JoeBlow-x86-home-user is that Debian development can be slower and lag behind other distros in some areas because Debian has to port what it incorporates to so many architectures, and that takes time and developers, each of whom have their own particular priorities and special problems unique to their architectures. So I think it's incumbent upon Debian users to decide whether one of these more targeted distros, like Mepis or Ubuntu, might be better options for them, and one of them very well might be. As for me, I've tried many other distros (Debian derivatives and otherwise), and I keep coming back to Debian. Michael M. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian Lenny Based SimplyMEPIS 8.0 is Released
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:09:38 -0800 Michael M. Moore mich...@writemoore.net wrote: ... They don't call it the universal operating system for nothing. I think only NetBSD, 'the operating system you can run on your toaster,' supports more architectures, but my impressions may be outdated. And now it runs on wall warts! http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS9634061300.html Hat tip: ./ and LWN.net Celejar -- mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian Lenny Based SimplyMEPIS 8.0 is Released
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 16:20:07 -0800 Jimmy Johnson field.engin...@gmail.com wrote: H.S. wrote: Jimmy Johnson wrote: Neil Ellwood wrote: Personally I haven't found anything easier than Debian and it is more reliable than anything else I have tried. Why use a derivative when the original is marvellous? Hi Neil, I'm along time Debian user (7 years) and if there was something wrong with Mepis I would not suggest you trying it, saying that, Mepis has one click tools that Debian don't have, like it will repair grub for you with a click or reinstall a working x-configuration for you with a Wonderful! Repairing grub and X with a click seems to be very useful to desktop users. Can't Mepis give back to Debian by providing these packages to Debian repos? Other such GUI conveniences too. Mepis (Warren Woodford) has given plenty to the community and he is not untouchable, it's Debian that needs to take the initiative, I contacted Daniel Baumann (Debian Live) about trying Mepis and he said he wanted to and would give Mepis a try, but in the time he said he would, he did not. I think Daniel has the same mind as Klaus Knopper and that is that the live cd is a tool and not meant to be installed. So if you guys want tools in Debian you need to talk to the Debian Dev's or KDE Dev's or Gnome Dev's, but I think it's best as a Live CD and Daniel is the Dev for that. I don't know Daniel, and I have no idea what's going through his head. I just want to point out that he contributes a great deal to Debian, and quite likely spends a great deal of time doing it: ~$ grep-available -F maintainer Baumann -s Package Package: libpth20 Package: libdvdread3 Package: libdvdread4 Package: dwm-tools Package: ncurses-base Package: expect Package: dvd+rw-tools Package: libglib1.2 Package: ncurses-bin Package: libungif4g Package: libgif4 Package: libmagic1 Package: iftop Package: ttf-bitstream-vera Package: file Package: traceroute Package: libncurses5-dev Package: thttpd-util Package: librsync1 Package: libncurses5 Package: unclutter Package: dwm Package: cdrdao Package: kqemu-source Package: libkeyutils1 Package: iceweasel-l10n-he Package: gqview Package: wmii-doc Package: kqemu-common Package: bsdmainutils Package: hostname Package: libglib1.2ldbl Package: acct Package: thttpd Package: dosfstools Package: ncurses-term Package: libncursesw5 Package: wmii Package: libdvdnav4 Package: rdiff-backup Package: libcdparanoia0 Celejar -- mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian Lenny Based SimplyMEPIS 8.0 is Released
Michael M. Moore wrote: Daryl Styrk wrote: Jimmy Johnson wrote: Hi Neil, I'm along time Debian user (7 years) and if there was something wrong with Mepis I would not suggest you trying it, saying that, Mepis has one click tools that Debian don't have, like it will repair grub for you with a click or reinstall a working x-configuration for you with a click, install and save /home with a click, add and remove users with a click, check file-systems with a click, the list goes on... Sure these things can be done without One Click Linux, but why? One day the Debian Live CD Project may create such a live cd but not today. :) I do love Debian, even as frustrating as it may be at times. I would hope one of the projects goals is to make using it easier and easier with each release. I do agree with Jimmy, what is wrong with One Click Linux? Being able to prove that your above it? Regardless those in the know would be able to tinker away to their hearts desire, while defaulting to and making available an easier generally user wide system. I'm just guessing here about whether or not this issue applies to these specific tools people are talking about, but one issue that has often prevented quick uptake of some tools/implementations/ideas from Debian derivatives into Debian proper is that Debian proper supports a much wider range of architectures than any Debian derivative I know of. Mepis, for example, just supports x86 hardware. Ubuntu is the same. Ubuntu used to support PPC, but I'm pretty sure they dropped it. Debian supports those plus SPARC, ARM, MIPS, IA-64 (different from x86-64, or amd64), and others I've never heard of let alone ever seen. They don't call it the universal operating system for nothing. I think only NetBSD, 'the operating system you can run on your toaster,' supports more architectures, but my impressions may be outdated. Anyway, the advantage for computer users the world over is that Debian is an option available to them when other distros are not. The disadvantage from the perspective of JoeBlow-x86-home-user is that Debian development can be slower and lag behind other distros in some areas because Debian has to port what it incorporates to so many architectures, and that takes time and developers, each of whom have their own particular priorities and special problems unique to their architectures. So I think it's incumbent upon Debian users to decide whether one of these more targeted distros, like Mepis or Ubuntu, might be better options for them, and one of them very well might be. As for me, I've tried many other distros (Debian derivatives and otherwise), and I keep coming back to Debian. Michael M. I agree with what you say, but is not the case with Debian-Live it only covers amd64 and i386. -- Jimmy Johnson Bakersfield, CA. U.S.A. Registered Linux User #380263 K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple stupid) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
