Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Dan Purgert]

On Apr 05, 2020, Celejar wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 07:18:04 -0400
> Dan Purgert  wrote:
>> On Apr 05, 2020, Celejar wrote:
>>> Well, you don't name your ISPs, but I'm pretty sure the big ones
>>> generally forbid running servers (for anything beyond "personal" use) on
>>> residential connections. E.g.:
>> 
>> Oops, must have pulled them out on accident.
>> 
>> Old-old -> cox
> 
> Cox's current AUP explicitly forbids servers (at least without "express
> authorization"):

Yeah, it was 10ish years ago that I had them.  I recall having to call
and ask for ports 80 and 25 to be opened.  Similar conversation I had
with AT 
  
  CS -> "You acknowledge you're responsible, and if you're spamming,
you're in for a world of hurt?"
  Me -> "Yep!"
  CS -> "Okay, just give me a minute here ... (hold music) ... 
you're all set!"

>> Old -> Time Warner (now Spectrum; good thing I got off before their AUP
>> went insane)
>> Current -> AT (although i did have to call their tech support to open
>> port 25, and authorize "if I run an open relay, I'm the one at fault"
> 
> Yes, ISTR running into this on the homelab reddit, that AT is one of
> the few major ISPs to allow servers on residential connections. In
> their AUP, they prettly clearly only forbid them on dial-up accounts:
> 
> https://www.att.com/legal/terms.aup.html

Yeah, with AT, it's basically "you'll only get a static IP with a biz
account ... ".  Their service is good, but the corporate methodology is
stupid.

L1 techs can't do anything, and if it's outside their area of expertise,
it basically goes to a service call (which may run you a fee ...
although the only time I've had to really call out for a tech was a dead
ONT -- so free, because it's their kit).

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Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Celejar]

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 07:18:04 -0400
Dan Purgert  wrote:

> On Apr 05, 2020, Celejar wrote:
> > On Fri, 3 Apr 2020 21:11:33 -0400
> > Dan Purgert  wrote:
> > 
> > > On Apr 03, 2020, Celejar wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 3 Apr 2020 12:46:00 -0400
> > > > Dan Purgert  wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > On Apr 03, 2020, Celejar wrote:

...

> > > > well it would perform over my home internet connection (besides for the
> > > > fact that it would certainly violate the TOS of pretty much any
> > > > residential ISP service).
> > > 
> > > It actually doesn't violate any ToS here (least not my ISP, and the
> > > previous two that I've had).  Granted the previous ones (DSL and low-end
> > > cable) wouldn't have been able to host it.  
> > > 
> > > Current ISP is FTTH, so I've got bandwidth to spare.
> > 
> > Well, you don't name your ISPs, but I'm pretty sure the big ones
> > generally forbid running servers (for anything beyond "personal" use) on
> > residential connections. E.g.:
> 
> Oops, must have pulled them out on accident.
> 
> Old-old -> cox

Cox's current AUP explicitly forbids servers (at least without "express
authorization"):

"You may not operate, or allow others to operate, servers of any type
or any other device, equipment, and/or software providing server-like
functionality in connection with the Service, unless expressly
authorized by Cox."

https://www.cox.com/aboutus/policies/acceptable-use-policy.html

> Old -> Time Warner (now Spectrum; good thing I got off before their AUP
> went insane)
> Current -> AT (although i did have to call their tech support to open
> port 25, and authorize "if I run an open relay, I'm the one at fault"

Yes, ISTR running into this on the homelab reddit, that AT is one of
the few major ISPs to allow servers on residential connections. In
their AUP, they prettly clearly only forbid them on dial-up accounts:

https://www.att.com/legal/terms.aup.html

Celejar

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Dan Purgert]

On Apr 05, 2020, Celejar wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Apr 2020 21:11:33 -0400
> Dan Purgert  wrote:
> 
> > On Apr 03, 2020, Celejar wrote:
> > > On Fri, 3 Apr 2020 12:46:00 -0400
> > > Dan Purgert  wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On Apr 03, 2020, Celejar wrote:
> > > > >  [...]
> > > > > Fair enough - but has anyone looked into, say, Jitsi Meet's default
> > > > > settings? Do they block non-hosts from screen sharing?
> > > > 
> > > > IIRC, jit.si (their web-client) defaults to needing a passphrase to even
> > > > get in.  But I only ever took a cursory glance before "everyone(tm)"
> > > > decided to use Zoom (i.e. good luck to me ever getting teh missus, etc.
> > > > off that platform).
> > > 
> > > I did a quick test run at their hosted instance, at meet.jit.si I
> > > created a meeting (using one of their generated semi-random phrases for
> > > the URL / ID) on one computer, and then logged on to the same url from
> > > another computer. No passphrase was required, which is apparently the
> > > same as what Zoom was doing.
> > 
> > Oh, right - You have to click the "Add Password" button in the big popup
> > that shows the dial-in information.  It's pretty prominent on the
> > screen, and you kind of have to make an effort to get rid of it (or at
> > least I did - there wasn't much contrast between the 'x' and the rest of
> > that popup).
> > 
> > > 
> > > > On the other hand, I think some of what Jitsi has going for it is that
> > > > it's somewhat decentralized -- if "my" server's settings are daft, it's
> > > > *my* problem, not Jitsi's (same for any other service I run myself).
> > > 
> > > Exactly - your hardware, your network. Under your control, but you need
> > > to bring the bandwidth and horsepower. I'm a little skeptical as to how
> > > well it would perform over my home internet connection (besides for the
> > > fact that it would certainly violate the TOS of pretty much any
> > > residential ISP service).
> > 
> > It actually doesn't violate any ToS here (least not my ISP, and the
> > previous two that I've had).  Granted the previous ones (DSL and low-end
> > cable) wouldn't have been able to host it.  
> > 
> > Current ISP is FTTH, so I've got bandwidth to spare.
> 
> Well, you don't name your ISPs, but I'm pretty sure the big ones
> generally forbid running servers (for anything beyond "personal" use) on
> residential connections. E.g.:

Oops, must have pulled them out on accident.

Old-old -> cox
Old -> Time Warner (now Spectrum; good thing I got off before their AUP
went insane)
Current -> AT (although i did have to call their tech support to open
port 25, and authorize "if I run an open relay, I'm the one at fault"


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Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[dalios]

Hi all,

The links below contain many suggestions (of which a percentage has
already been mentioned in this thread). However I am putting the links
here because there are a few more options inside. I guess there are many
recent similar threads in many FLOSS lists/forums/other discussion
platforms and similar posts/articles by many news
sites/organizations/individuals.

Maybe this is an opportunity for FLOSS and privacy concerned solutions
to be pushed to the wider public (though I doubt).


https://anarc.at/blog/2020-03-15-remote-tools/
https://www.systemli.org/en/2020/03/15/solidarity-as-infrastructure.html
https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2020/mar/17/remotetools/
https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/better-than-zoom-try-these-free-software-tools-for-staying-in-touch
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fediverse

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Celejar]

On Fri, 3 Apr 2020 21:11:33 -0400
Dan Purgert  wrote:

> On Apr 03, 2020, Celejar wrote:
> > On Fri, 3 Apr 2020 12:46:00 -0400
> > Dan Purgert  wrote:
> > 
> > > On Apr 03, 2020, Celejar wrote:
> > > >  [...]
> > > > Fair enough - but has anyone looked into, say, Jitsi Meet's default
> > > > settings? Do they block non-hosts from screen sharing?
> > > 
> > > IIRC, jit.si (their web-client) defaults to needing a passphrase to even
> > > get in.  But I only ever took a cursory glance before "everyone(tm)"
> > > decided to use Zoom (i.e. good luck to me ever getting teh missus, etc.
> > > off that platform).
> > 
> > I did a quick test run at their hosted instance, at meet.jit.si I
> > created a meeting (using one of their generated semi-random phrases for
> > the URL / ID) on one computer, and then logged on to the same url from
> > another computer. No passphrase was required, which is apparently the
> > same as what Zoom was doing.
> 
> Oh, right - You have to click the "Add Password" button in the big popup
> that shows the dial-in information.  It's pretty prominent on the
> screen, and you kind of have to make an effort to get rid of it (or at
> least I did - there wasn't much contrast between the 'x' and the rest of
> that popup).
> 
> > 
> > > On the other hand, I think some of what Jitsi has going for it is that
> > > it's somewhat decentralized -- if "my" server's settings are daft, it's
> > > *my* problem, not Jitsi's (same for any other service I run myself).
> > 
> > Exactly - your hardware, your network. Under your control, but you need
> > to bring the bandwidth and horsepower. I'm a little skeptical as to how
> > well it would perform over my home internet connection (besides for the
> > fact that it would certainly violate the TOS of pretty much any
> > residential ISP service).
> 
> It actually doesn't violate any ToS here (least not my ISP, and the
> previous two that I've had).  Granted the previous ones (DSL and low-end
> cable) wouldn't have been able to host it.  
> 
> Current ISP is FTTH, so I've got bandwidth to spare.

Well, you don't name your ISPs, but I'm pretty sure the big ones
generally forbid running servers (for anything beyond "personal" use) on
residential connections. E.g.:

Verizon:
https://www.verizon.com/about/terms-conditions/verizon-online

Comcast (a little less clear):
https://www.xfinity.com/Corporate/Customers/Policies/HighSpeedInternetAUP

Charter / Spectrum:
https://www.spectrum.com/policies/residential-aup.html

I suppose we (or our lawyers) can debate whether hosting video
conferencing servers for small groups of friends or business associates
constitutes "personal" use.

Celejar

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Keith Bainbridge]

On 2/4/20 3:27 am, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

It could be a manpower issue and/or upstream wants more flexibility than
allowed by Debian policies.


I use autokey. Until earlier this year the latest version available in 
debian was 0.90.odd. Version 0.95.10 is now available in testing thanks 
to some emailing from some of the user group.


It was a person-power thing 7 and only needed a prompt somewhere to be 
noticed by somebody who used and wasn't that a newer version was 
available. It went in to sid very quickly, and followed through to 
testing almost overnight (i know, it takes a few days, but there was no 
obvious delay).



It followed into current ubuntu (19.10) as well - quickly.


Somebody here knows the process, right?   If not I could go back and 
check it out.


--
Keith Bainbridge

ke1th3...@zoho.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Dan Purgert]

On Apr 03, 2020, Celejar wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Apr 2020 12:46:00 -0400
> Dan Purgert  wrote:
> 
> > On Apr 03, 2020, Celejar wrote:
> > >  [...]
> > > Fair enough - but has anyone looked into, say, Jitsi Meet's default
> > > settings? Do they block non-hosts from screen sharing?
> > 
> > IIRC, jit.si (their web-client) defaults to needing a passphrase to even
> > get in.  But I only ever took a cursory glance before "everyone(tm)"
> > decided to use Zoom (i.e. good luck to me ever getting teh missus, etc.
> > off that platform).
> 
> I did a quick test run at their hosted instance, at meet.jit.si I
> created a meeting (using one of their generated semi-random phrases for
> the URL / ID) on one computer, and then logged on to the same url from
> another computer. No passphrase was required, which is apparently the
> same as what Zoom was doing.

Oh, right - You have to click the "Add Password" button in the big popup
that shows the dial-in information.  It's pretty prominent on the
screen, and you kind of have to make an effort to get rid of it (or at
least I did - there wasn't much contrast between the 'x' and the rest of
that popup).

> 
> > On the other hand, I think some of what Jitsi has going for it is that
> > it's somewhat decentralized -- if "my" server's settings are daft, it's
> > *my* problem, not Jitsi's (same for any other service I run myself).
> 
> Exactly - your hardware, your network. Under your control, but you need
> to bring the bandwidth and horsepower. I'm a little skeptical as to how
> well it would perform over my home internet connection (besides for the
> fact that it would certainly violate the TOS of pretty much any
> residential ISP service).

It actually doesn't violate any ToS here (least not my ISP, and the
previous two that I've had).  Granted the previous ones (DSL and low-end
cable) wouldn't have been able to host it.  

Current ISP is FTTH, so I've got bandwidth to spare.


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Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Tom Dial]

On 4/2/20 02:56, Curt wrote:
> On 2020-03-31, n...@dismail.de  wrote:
>> On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 08:17:56PM +0200, deloptes wrote:
>>> […] Recently I was looking at zoom.us - seems to be in
>>> hype now - can be installed in debian and can be used as video conferencing
>>> tool.
>>
>> Based on zoom's "privacy" policy and everything I've herad so far about it,
>> I would not recommend using zoom. Some examples:
>> - Just a week or so ago it was exposed that zoom was sharing data with 
>> facebook
>>   without informing the user about it or giving any choice on that. 
>> Alledgedly
>>   they stopped it now [1]

They've done a public mea culpa about this and promised to stop (or by
now, maybe, have stopped) doing that. And as reported in [1] it was
peculiar to iOS, although I can't think of a reason they would do only
that one unless it came with a third party iOS library they used.

>> - Zoom created Security-Holes with it's Mac-Client, that persisted even after
>>   deinstalling zoom on OSX. [2]  Personally I wouldn't trust their other 
>> clients 
>>   either.

I don't have a Mac, and may be off the mark here. After reading a couple
of the reports about this one, I was not sure whether the defect was
with zoom, MacOS, or somehow shared between the two. It was presented as
specific to Mac, so maybe for Debian it's mostly a cautionary tale.
Still, following the link described in [2] on Debian 10 opened a
meeting, somewhat as described, although the camera was not on.

>> - Zoom can collect more data about you then you might think and share this 
>> with 
>>   the meeting-creator. [3]
>>

Depending on the specifics of an organization and meeting, that might
not be much of a problem, or might be thought a feature rather than a
problem. What the EFF article mentions, within a business conferencing
environment at least, are things that administrators or meeting
organizers generally are authorized to know and may have a legitimate
interest in. As a supervisor holding a branch meeting I would want, and
consider it well within my authority, to know if one of my employees
changed focus to another application (maybe a game?), and as a (former)
US DoD manager, would be entitled to know, and obligated to take
corrective action, if they used equipment not provided and managed by my
agency.

> 
> I was just reading this little item about zoom from the G-men (actually,
> Kristen is a Boston G-woman, apparently):
> 
> https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/boston/news/press-releases/fbi-warns-of-teleconferencing-and-online-classroom-hijacking-during-covid-19-pandemic

The events reported here are very suggestive of pranks by one or more
students in the classes or their acquaintances who obtained meeting
details from them. That also seems possible in the case of the PhD
candidate whose disrupted dissertation defense Zoom meeting was reported
3 April on NPR, although that one indicated far more, and more personal,
malice.

There also are potential issues with Zoom's security of stored meetings,
both during the meeting and optionally after it is finished.

All that said, Ms. Setera's recommendations are appropriate and
reasonable and apply as applicable to any conferencing application.

For several specific reasons rooted in the apparent fact that Zoom
appears to be the conferencing tool of the day, and despite the various
caveats, I have installed and plan to use it - carefully - to compensate
partly for isolation dictated by prudence in the face of a rather nasty
epidemic. So far, it installed cleanly and seems likely to be functional
and generally fit for purpose.
> 

Regards
Tom Dial

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Celejar]

On Fri, 3 Apr 2020 12:46:00 -0400
Dan Purgert  wrote:

> On Apr 03, 2020, Celejar wrote:
> >  [...]
> > Fair enough - but has anyone looked into, say, Jitsi Meet's default
> > settings? Do they block non-hosts from screen sharing?
> 
> IIRC, jit.si (their web-client) defaults to needing a passphrase to even
> get in.  But I only ever took a cursory glance before "everyone(tm)"
> decided to use Zoom (i.e. good luck to me ever getting teh missus, etc.
> off that platform).

I did a quick test run at their hosted instance, at meet.jit.si I
created a meeting (using one of their generated semi-random phrases for
the URL / ID) on one computer, and then logged on to the same url from
another computer. No passphrase was required, which is apparently the
same as what Zoom was doing.

> On the other hand, I think some of what Jitsi has going for it is that
> it's somewhat decentralized -- if "my" server's settings are daft, it's
> *my* problem, not Jitsi's (same for any other service I run myself).

Exactly - your hardware, your network. Under your control, but you need
to bring the bandwidth and horsepower. I'm a little skeptical as to how
well it would perform over my home internet connection (besides for the
fact that it would certainly violate the TOS of pretty much any
residential ISP service).

Celejar

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Dan Purgert]

On Apr 03, 2020, Celejar wrote:
>  [...]
> Fair enough - but has anyone looked into, say, Jitsi Meet's default
> settings? Do they block non-hosts from screen sharing?

IIRC, jit.si (their web-client) defaults to needing a passphrase to even
get in.  But I only ever took a cursory glance before "everyone(tm)"
decided to use Zoom (i.e. good luck to me ever getting teh missus, etc.
off that platform).

On the other hand, I think some of what Jitsi has going for it is that
it's somewhat decentralized -- if "my" server's settings are daft, it's
*my* problem, not Jitsi's (same for any other service I run myself).


-- 
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Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Celejar]

On Fri, 3 Apr 2020 16:14:26 - (UTC)
Curt  wrote:

> On 2020-04-02, Celejar  wrote:
> >> 
> >> I was just reading this little item about zoom from the G-men (actually,
> >> Kristen is a Boston G-woman, apparently):
> >> 
> >> https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/boston/news/press-releases/fbi-warns-of-teleconferencing-and-online-classroom-hijacking-during-covid-19-pandemic
> >
> > To be fair, at least this particular piece is not really about Zoom
> > security or privacy failings, but about users failing to take advantage
> > of the provided privacy and access controls.
> 
> To be exhaustive (and what are we here if not exhaustive), the piece
> does address at least one of Zoom's default settings, which they've
> recently changed because indeed it wasn't too sane and so might be
> considered a security or privacy "failing" of sorts (screen sharing
> settings now default to "Host Only" for *Education accounts*).
> 
> https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/360041591671-March-2020-Update-to-sharing-settings-for-Education-accounts

Fair enough - but has anyone looked into, say, Jitsi Meet's default
settings? Do they block non-hosts from screen sharing?

Celejar

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Curt]

On 2020-04-02, Celejar  wrote:
>> 
>> I was just reading this little item about zoom from the G-men (actually,
>> Kristen is a Boston G-woman, apparently):
>> 
>> https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/boston/news/press-releases/fbi-warns-of-teleconferencing-and-online-classroom-hijacking-during-covid-19-pandemic
>
> To be fair, at least this particular piece is not really about Zoom
> security or privacy failings, but about users failing to take advantage
> of the provided privacy and access controls.

To be exhaustive (and what are we here if not exhaustive), the piece
does address at least one of Zoom's default settings, which they've
recently changed because indeed it wasn't too sane and so might be
considered a security or privacy "failing" of sorts (screen sharing
settings now default to "Host Only" for *Education accounts*).

https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/360041591671-March-2020-Update-to-sharing-settings-for-Education-accounts


> Celejar
>
>


-- 
"When we encounter computer output that looks like what we produce by thinking,
we are liable to credit the computer with thought... By that rule of inference,
there would have to be an orchestra somewhere inside your CD player and a farm
in your refrigerator."  --David Halpern

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Celejar]

On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 08:16:43 +0200
Erwan David  wrote:

> Le 31/03/2020 à 22:27, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit :
> > On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 03:09:47PM -0500, Anil Felipe Duggirala wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> >> I second Zoom. You can install it via flatpak, which might make you feel 
> >> better. I tried jitsi some time ago, I think that will require a bit more 
> >> setup for sure. 
> > 
> > It's proprietary, right?
> > 
> > -- t
> > 
> 
> And with many privacy concerns :
> https://yro.slashdot.org/story/20/03/31/201237/zoom-is-leaking-peoples-email-addresses-and-photos-to-strangers
> 
> https://theintercept.com/2020/03/31/zoom-meeting-encryption/
> 
> https://yro.slashdot.org/story/20/03/28/0457212/doc-searls-zoom-needs-to-clean-up-its-privacy-act
> 
> That makes a lot of concerns

Looks like it's not just techies and privacy nerds who are concerned - the 
financial markets have taken notice:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/guid/b7c418b4-7433-11ea-8a54-63f9ee54c9d9

Celejar

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Celejar]

On Thu, 2 Apr 2020 14:56:26 +0200
 wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 02, 2020 at 12:13:24PM -, Curt wrote:
> > On 2020-04-01, Celejar  wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > This thread isn't too encouraging (though I'm uncertain about the exact
> > nature of the participants):
> > 
> > https://github.com/bigbluebutton/bigbluebutton/issues/8861
> 
> LWN has a currently a topic on that (with, as usual, high quality
> discussion):
> 
>   https://lwn.net/Articles/815751/

As I suspected, the fact that it isn't in the official Debian repos has
its consequences (or is a symptom of underlying problems: even the LWN
editors, presumably fairly competent linux admins, had a fair amount of
trouble with the setup.

Celejar

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Celejar]

On Thu, 2 Apr 2020 12:13:24 - (UTC)
Curt  wrote:

> On 2020-04-01, Celejar  wrote:
> >
> > How easy is it in practice to install on Debian? The following statement
> > in the FAQ scared me off:
> >
> > *
> >
> > BigBlueButton requires Ubuntu 16.04 64-bit. See Install BigBlueButton.
> >
> > We (the core developers) have not installed BigBlueButton on any other
> > version of Ubuntu. It probably won’t work.
> >
> > *
> >
> > https://docs.bigbluebutton.org/support/faq.html
> >
> > If the core developers are skeptical that it'll work on even other
> > versions of Ubuntu, that doesn't sound all that promising for Debian ...
> 
> This thread isn't too encouraging (though I'm uncertain about the exact
> nature of the participants):
> 
> https://github.com/bigbluebutton/bigbluebutton/issues/8861

:|

It may be great software, but the fact that the devs don't provide
generic instructions for installing on arbitrary *nix systems rubs me
the wrong way.

Celejar

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Celejar]

On Thu, 2 Apr 2020 08:56:18 - (UTC)
Curt  wrote:

> On 2020-03-31, n...@dismail.de  wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 08:17:56PM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> >> […] Recently I was looking at zoom.us - seems to be in
> >> hype now - can be installed in debian and can be used as video conferencing
> >> tool.
> >
> > Based on zoom's "privacy" policy and everything I've herad so far about it,
> > I would not recommend using zoom. Some examples:
> > - Just a week or so ago it was exposed that zoom was sharing data with 
> > facebook
> >   without informing the user about it or giving any choice on that. 
> > Alledgedly
> >   they stopped it now [1]
> > - Zoom created Security-Holes with it's Mac-Client, that persisted even 
> > after
> >   deinstalling zoom on OSX. [2]  Personally I wouldn't trust their other 
> > clients 
> >   either.
> > - Zoom can collect more data about you then you might think and share this 
> > with 
> >   the meeting-creator. [3]
> >   
> 
> I was just reading this little item about zoom from the G-men (actually,
> Kristen is a Boston G-woman, apparently):
> 
> https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/boston/news/press-releases/fbi-warns-of-teleconferencing-and-online-classroom-hijacking-during-covid-19-pandemic

To be fair, at least this particular piece is not really about Zoom
security or privacy failings, but about users failing to take advantage
of the provided privacy and access controls.

Celejar

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Celejar]

On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 14:50:40 +
"Russell L. Harris"  wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 08:58:16AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> >I am indeed strongly tempted to try that. I suppose I'm just spoiled by
> >Debian - I almost always install stuff from the repos, and I tend to
> >assume (probably somewhat unreasonably) that if something isn't there,
> >there's a good reason for it,
> 
> Understood.
> 
> >and that installing manually from upstream is going to be more
> >trouble than it's worth (at least for me with my limited sysadmin
> >skills).
> 
> Jitsi has a short video which steps you through the installation.
> Perhaps it was not quite as easy as installing with Synaptic, but I
> had no difficulty following it.

Thanks

Celejar

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[tomas]

On Thu, Apr 02, 2020 at 12:13:24PM -, Curt wrote:
> On 2020-04-01, Celejar  wrote:

[...]

> This thread isn't too encouraging (though I'm uncertain about the exact
> nature of the participants):
> 
> https://github.com/bigbluebutton/bigbluebutton/issues/8861

LWN has a currently a topic on that (with, as usual, high quality
discussion):

  https://lwn.net/Articles/815751/

cheers
-- t


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Description: Digital signature

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Curt]

On 2020-04-01, Celejar  wrote:
>
> How easy is it in practice to install on Debian? The following statement
> in the FAQ scared me off:
>
> *
>
> BigBlueButton requires Ubuntu 16.04 64-bit. See Install BigBlueButton.
>
> We (the core developers) have not installed BigBlueButton on any other
> version of Ubuntu. It probably won’t work.
>
> *
>
> https://docs.bigbluebutton.org/support/faq.html
>
> If the core developers are skeptical that it'll work on even other
> versions of Ubuntu, that doesn't sound all that promising for Debian ...

This thread isn't too encouraging (though I'm uncertain about the exact
nature of the participants):

https://github.com/bigbluebutton/bigbluebutton/issues/8861

> Celejar
>
>


-- 
"When we encounter computer output that looks like what we produce by thinking,
we are liable to credit the computer with thought... By that rule of inference,
there would have to be an orchestra somewhere inside your CD player and a farm
in your refrigerator."  --David Halpern

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Curt]

On 2020-03-31, n...@dismail.de  wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 08:17:56PM +0200, deloptes wrote:
>> […] Recently I was looking at zoom.us - seems to be in
>> hype now - can be installed in debian and can be used as video conferencing
>> tool.
>
> Based on zoom's "privacy" policy and everything I've herad so far about it,
> I would not recommend using zoom. Some examples:
> - Just a week or so ago it was exposed that zoom was sharing data with 
> facebook
>   without informing the user about it or giving any choice on that. Alledgedly
>   they stopped it now [1]
> - Zoom created Security-Holes with it's Mac-Client, that persisted even after
>   deinstalling zoom on OSX. [2]  Personally I wouldn't trust their other 
> clients 
>   either.
> - Zoom can collect more data about you then you might think and share this 
> with 
>   the meeting-creator. [3]
>   

I was just reading this little item about zoom from the G-men (actually,
Kristen is a Boston G-woman, apparently):

https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/boston/news/press-releases/fbi-warns-of-teleconferencing-and-online-classroom-hijacking-during-covid-19-pandemic

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Celejar]

On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 19:27:37 +0300
Andrei POPESCU  wrote:

> On Mi, 01 apr 20, 08:58:16, Celejar wrote:
> > On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 03:57:17 +
> > "Russell L. Harris"  wrote:
> > 
> > > server.  And Jitsi is open source.  What more could you ask?
> > 
> > I am indeed strongly tempted to try that. I suppose I'm just spoiled by
> > Debian - I almost always install stuff from the repos, and I tend to
> > assume (probably somewhat unreasonably) that if something isn't there,
> > there's a good reason for it, and that installing manually from
> > upstream is going to be more trouble than it's worth (at least for me
> > with my limited sysadmin skills). I acknowledge that this is an overly
> > narrow and pessimistic attitude ...
> 
> On a quick research I couldn't find any particular reason why the 
> package is not available also from Debian repositories.
> 
> There used to be a package maintained by two persons with @jitsi.org 
> e-mail addresses. At some point they just stopped uploading it, though 
> one of those persons is still maintaining the upstream packages.
> 
> It could be a manpower issue and/or upstream wants more flexibility than 
> allowed by Debian policies.
> 
> E.g. in many cases upstream projects don't have a "stable", "long term 
> support", "ESR", etc. branch (they may have valid reasons for that). 
> This makes it very difficult to provide security support for the package 
> in Debian.

All good points - thanks.

Celejar

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Markos]

Em 31-03-2020 13:44, Markos escreveu:


Hi Friends,

My wife is a teacher and is trying to teach remote lessons using only 
WhatsApp video calls.


To help her I am looking for a package in the Debian repository to 
organize virtual classes for small groups, 5 or 6 students maximum.


Any suggestion of an open-source program easy-to-configure and 
easy-to-use for this?


Preferably a Debian package?

Thank you,

Markos



Hi Friends,

I didn't know Jitsi and BigBlueButton.

Really enjoyed Jitsi.

I will start using Jitsi, and test the server installation later.

And also know more about BigBlueButton.

And stay away from zoom.us. ;-)

Thank you very much for the tips.

Best Regards,

Markos

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Mi, 01 apr 20, 08:58:16, Celejar wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 03:57:17 +
> "Russell L. Harris"  wrote:
> 
> > server.  And Jitsi is open source.  What more could you ask?
> 
> I am indeed strongly tempted to try that. I suppose I'm just spoiled by
> Debian - I almost always install stuff from the repos, and I tend to
> assume (probably somewhat unreasonably) that if something isn't there,
> there's a good reason for it, and that installing manually from
> upstream is going to be more trouble than it's worth (at least for me
> with my limited sysadmin skills). I acknowledge that this is an overly
> narrow and pessimistic attitude ...

On a quick research I couldn't find any particular reason why the 
package is not available also from Debian repositories.

There used to be a package maintained by two persons with @jitsi.org 
e-mail addresses. At some point they just stopped uploading it, though 
one of those persons is still maintaining the upstream packages.

It could be a manpower issue and/or upstream wants more flexibility than 
allowed by Debian policies.

E.g. in many cases upstream projects don't have a "stable", "long term 
support", "ESR", etc. branch (they may have valid reasons for that). 
This makes it very difficult to provide security support for the package 
in Debian.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Description: PGP signature

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Russell L. Harris]

On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 08:58:16AM -0400, Celejar wrote:

I am indeed strongly tempted to try that. I suppose I'm just spoiled by
Debian - I almost always install stuff from the repos, and I tend to
assume (probably somewhat unreasonably) that if something isn't there,
there's a good reason for it,


Understood.


and that installing manually from upstream is going to be more
trouble than it's worth (at least for me with my limited sysadmin
skills).


Jitsi has a short video which steps you through the installation.
Perhaps it was not quite as easy as installing with Synaptic, but I
had no difficulty following it.

RLH

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Celejar]

On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 09:11:55 +0200
juh  wrote:

> Am 01.04.20 um 01:09 schrieb Celejar:
> > I spend some time today trying to find a libre alternative to Zoom,
> > preferably one in the Debian repos, but came up empty. The closest I
> > found were indeed Jitsi Meet (a part of the much larger Jitsi project),
> > and BigBlueButton, libre but designed to be installed on a Ubuntu
> > system. I'm actually puzzled by why there doesn't seem to be any easy,
> > solid libre alternative to Zoom.
> 
> My hosting cooperative Hostsharing runs BigBlueButton on Debian
> machines. We recently made a stress test with 47 participants to see
> what requirements are needed in reality.
> 
> BBB is running pretty stable on the server side. Participants should
> have a decent internet connection as bandwith is paramount especially if
> many participants stream video and audio.
> 
> We wrote a report about our test in German.
> 
> https://www.hostsharing.net/blog/2020/03/30/bigbluebutton-im-lasttest/
> 
> Use a translation server if you want to read it all but the figures
> should be clear enough.
> 
> Don't feed the next big corp that spies on us. ;-)

Thanks - I'd love to avoid feeding them to the extent that I can
reasonably do so ;)

How easy is it in practice to install on Debian? The following statement
in the FAQ scared me off:

*

BigBlueButton requires Ubuntu 16.04 64-bit. See Install BigBlueButton.

We (the core developers) have not installed BigBlueButton on any other
version of Ubuntu. It probably won’t work.

*

https://docs.bigbluebutton.org/support/faq.html

If the core developers are skeptical that it'll work on even other
versions of Ubuntu, that doesn't sound all that promising for Debian ...

Celejar

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Celejar]

On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 03:57:17 +
"Russell L. Harris"  wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 07:09:35PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> >Actually, *no* official Debian repository currently contains Jitsi. It
> >was removed in 2017, apparently due to QA issues, although I don't know
> >the whole story:
> 
> Perhaps the problem was nothing more than a conflict with another
> package in the Debian distribution.  Besides, that was three years
> ago.  And Jitsi has a Debian package which I have installed on Debian
> 9; it is running properly.  

Yes, a Debian package prepared (and maintained) by upstream. My point
was that it isn't in *Debian's* repositories (even three years later).

> >I spent some time today trying to find a libre alternative to Zoom,
> >preferably one in the Debian repos, but came up empty. The closest I
> >found were indeed Jitsi Meet (a part of the much larger Jitsi
> >project)...
> 
> It appears to me that Jitsi has something for everyone.  With nothing
> more than a headset and a camera (camera optional) you can conference
> via WebRTC on Jitsi.  Are you concerned about bandwith?  Log in
> and give it a try; it is free.  Or you can install Jitsi and run your own

I did try the hosted instance (meet.jit.si) ;) It worked perfectly,
although I have no idea how well it would scale to dozens of users, and
how reliable / usable it would be in production use.

> server.  And Jitsi is open source.  What more could you ask?

I am indeed strongly tempted to try that. I suppose I'm just spoiled by
Debian - I almost always install stuff from the repos, and I tend to
assume (probably somewhat unreasonably) that if something isn't there,
there's a good reason for it, and that installing manually from
upstream is going to be more trouble than it's worth (at least for me
with my limited sysadmin skills). I acknowledge that this is an overly
narrow and pessimistic attitude ...

> >I'm actually puzzled by why there doesn't seem to be any easy, solid
> >libre alternative to Zoom.
> 
> Jitsi is easy.  Do you have reason to say that the current release of
> Jitsi is not "solid"?  And is Zoom worthy of consideration?

Only the fact that Jitsi has been booted from Debian due to quality (or
compatibility) problems and hasn't made it back in three years. I'm
currently using Zoom since

a) Everyone in my social and professional circles are using it and
b) It just works.

As above, 'b' is satisfied by the hosted instance at meet.jit.si, so
assuming it scales well and works in production, I'd definitely prefer
that, at least for cases where I'm not dependent on the preferences of
others.

Celejar

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[mick crane]

On 2020-03-31 21:30, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 10:27:28PM +0200, n...@dismail.de wrote:

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 08:17:56PM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> […] Recently I was looking at zoom.us - seems to be in
> hype now - can be installed in debian and can be used as video conferencing
> tool.

Based on zoom's "privacy" policy and everything I've herad so far 
about it,

I would not recommend using zoom. Some examples:


[...]

Shudder. OK, for me (and my customers) it's toast. Thanks for
pointing that out.

Cheers
-- t


Good job UK Cabinet isn't using it for teleconferencing.
Oh.

mick
--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[juh]

Am 01.04.20 um 13:14 schrieb deloptes:
> juh wrote:
> 
>> My hosting cooperative Hostsharing runs BigBlueButton on Debian
>> machines. We recently made a stress test with 47 participants to see
>> what requirements are needed in reality.
> 
> very good - as far as I see theoretically it should be possible to run it on
> windows, but no one tried ... so it automatically disqualifies
> 
> You know the market share of linux desktops?

It is a web solution. Clients only need a browser. Chrome is recommended.

juh

-- 
Software-Dokumentation mit Sphinx
Zweite überarbeitete Auflage (Sphinx 2.0)
https://www.amazon.de/dp/1793008779
Paperback: 282 Seiten

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[deloptes]

juh wrote:

> My hosting cooperative Hostsharing runs BigBlueButton on Debian
> machines. We recently made a stress test with 47 participants to see
> what requirements are needed in reality.

very good - as far as I see theoretically it should be possible to run it on
windows, but no one tried ... so it automatically disqualifies

You know the market share of linux desktops?

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Richard Hector]

On 1/04/20 8:11 pm, juh wrote:
> Use a translation server if you want to read it all but the figures
> should be clear enough.

Commas are useful :-)

> Use a translation server if you want to read it all, but the figures
> should be clear enough.

> Use a translation server if you want to read it, all but the figures
> should be clear enough.

Those are very different meanings :-)

I suspect the first one is the intended one, but the second is what I
saw first.

Richard

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[deloptes]

juh wrote:

> We wrote a report about our test in German.
> 
> https://www.hostsharing.net/blog/2020/03/30/bigbluebutton-im-lasttest/
> 
> Use a translation server if you want to read it all but the figures
> should be clear enough.

What is the ratio for the bandwidth - up/down?

For example I have 8Mbit 6/2.

 

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[tomas]

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 09:14:00PM +, Russell L. Harris wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 10:27:59PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> >On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 03:09:47PM -0500, Anil Felipe Duggirala wrote:
> 
> >>I second Zoom. You can install it via flatpak, which might make you
> >>feel better. I tried jitsi some time ago, I think that will require
> >>a bit more setup for sure.
> 
> >It's proprietary, right?
> 
> According to the jitsi.org web site, Jitsi provides "Multi-platform
> open-source video conferencing".

Heh. That's the problem with "it". I was referring to Zoom, not Jitsi.

Cheers
-- t


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Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[juh]

Am 01.04.20 um 01:09 schrieb Celejar:
> I spend some time today trying to find a libre alternative to Zoom,
> preferably one in the Debian repos, but came up empty. The closest I
> found were indeed Jitsi Meet (a part of the much larger Jitsi project),
> and BigBlueButton, libre but designed to be installed on a Ubuntu
> system. I'm actually puzzled by why there doesn't seem to be any easy,
> solid libre alternative to Zoom.

My hosting cooperative Hostsharing runs BigBlueButton on Debian
machines. We recently made a stress test with 47 participants to see
what requirements are needed in reality.

BBB is running pretty stable on the server side. Participants should
have a decent internet connection as bandwith is paramount especially if
many participants stream video and audio.

We wrote a report about our test in German.

https://www.hostsharing.net/blog/2020/03/30/bigbluebutton-im-lasttest/

Use a translation server if you want to read it all but the figures
should be clear enough.

Don't feed the next big corp that spies on us. ;-)

juh

-- 
Software-Dokumentation mit Sphinx
Zweite überarbeitete Auflage (Sphinx 2.0)
https://www.amazon.de/dp/1793008779
Paperback: 282 Seiten

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Erwan David]

Le 31/03/2020 à 22:27, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit :
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 03:09:47PM -0500, Anil Felipe Duggirala wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> I second Zoom. You can install it via flatpak, which might make you feel 
>> better. I tried jitsi some time ago, I think that will require a bit more 
>> setup for sure. 
> 
> It's proprietary, right?
> 
> -- t
> 

And with many privacy concerns :
https://yro.slashdot.org/story/20/03/31/201237/zoom-is-leaking-peoples-email-addresses-and-photos-to-strangers

https://theintercept.com/2020/03/31/zoom-meeting-encryption/

https://yro.slashdot.org/story/20/03/28/0457212/doc-searls-zoom-needs-to-clean-up-its-privacy-act

That makes a lot of concerns

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Russell L. Harris]

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 07:09:35PM -0400, Celejar wrote:

Actually, *no* official Debian repository currently contains Jitsi. It
was removed in 2017, apparently due to QA issues, although I don't know
the whole story:


Perhaps the problem was nothing more than a conflict with another
package in the Debian distribution.  Besides, that was three years
ago.  And Jitsi has a Debian package which I have installed on Debian
9; it is running properly.  


I spent some time today trying to find a libre alternative to Zoom,
preferably one in the Debian repos, but came up empty. The closest I
found were indeed Jitsi Meet (a part of the much larger Jitsi
project)...


It appears to me that Jitsi has something for everyone.  With nothing
more than a headset and a camera (camera optional) you can conference
via WebRTC on Jitsi.  Are you concerned about bandwith?  Log in
and give it a try; it is free.  Or you can install Jitsi and run your own
server.  And Jitsi is open source.  What more could you ask?


I'm actually puzzled by why there doesn't seem to be any easy, solid
libre alternative to Zoom.


Jitsi is easy.  Do you have reason to say that the current release of
Jitsi is not "solid"?  And is Zoom worthy of consideration?

RLH

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Celejar]

On Tue, 31 Mar 2020 19:05:47 -0400
Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Tuesday 31 March 2020 18:24:30 deloptes wrote:
> 
> > Russell L. Harris wrote:
> > > You can conference through a server at jitsi.org, or you can
> > > download a jitsi package (a Debian package is available) which you
> > > can install on your own server and run with complete independence
> > > from jitsi.org.
> >
> > well, if you had the bandwidth.
> > 1:1 works @home, but conferencing needs a much better connection that
> > costs respectively
> 
> Since many of us are on an adsl rated at 10 megabit now, fast enough to 
> watch youtube etc, what would you estimate is the minimum upload 
> bandwidth needed to take the pain for others away?

Here's a detailed analysis of this from the BigBlueButton FAQ -
different product, but some of the logic should carry over:

http://docs.bigbluebutton.org/support/faq.html#what-are-the-bandwidth-requirements-for-running-a-bigbluebutton-server

Celejar

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Celejar]

On Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:14:00 +
"Russell L. Harris"  wrote:

> At the moment, the Debian STABLE repository contains no Jitsi package.

Actually, *no* official Debian repository currently contains Jitsi. It
was removed in 2017, apparently due to QA issues, although I don't know
the whole story:

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=870990

> Inasmuch as I make it a rule never to install on my primary machine
> Debian packages other than those which downloaded from the Debian
> repository, I installed Debian on a spare machine, and installed on
> that machine the Debian package from jitsi.org.  jitsi worked nicely
> for me.

I spend some time today trying to find a libre alternative to Zoom,
preferably one in the Debian repos, but came up empty. The closest I
found were indeed Jitsi Meet (a part of the much larger Jitsi project),
and BigBlueButton, libre but designed to be installed on a Ubuntu
system. I'm actually puzzled by why there doesn't seem to be any easy,
solid libre alternative to Zoom.

Celejar

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 31 March 2020 18:24:30 deloptes wrote:

> Russell L. Harris wrote:
> > You can conference through a server at jitsi.org, or you can
> > download a jitsi package (a Debian package is available) which you
> > can install on your own server and run with complete independence
> > from jitsi.org.
>
> well, if you had the bandwidth.
> 1:1 works @home, but conferencing needs a much better connection that
> costs respectively

Since many of us are on an adsl rated at 10 megabit now, fast enough to 
watch youtube etc, what would you estimate is the minimum upload 
bandwidth needed to take the pain for others away?

Thanks deloptes.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[deloptes]

Russell L. Harris wrote:

> You can conference through a server at jitsi.org, or you can download
> a jitsi package (a Debian package is available) which you can install
> on your own server and run with complete independence from jitsi.org.

well, if you had the bandwidth.
1:1 works @home, but conferencing needs a much better connection that costs
respectively

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[deloptes]

n...@dismail.de wrote:

> Based on zoom's "privacy" policy and everything I've herad so far about
> it, I would not recommend using zoom. Some examples:
> - Just a week or so ago it was exposed that zoom was sharing data with
> facebook without informing the user about it or giving any choice on that.
> Alledgedly they stopped it now [1]
> - Zoom created Security-Holes with it's Mac-Client, that persisted even
> after deinstalling zoom on OSX. [2]  Personally I wouldn't trust their
> other clients either.
> - Zoom can collect more data about you then you might think and share this
> with the meeting-creator. [3]
> 
> [1] https://www.komando.com/security-privacy/zoom-ios-app-facebook/732681/
> [2]
>
[https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8xzjj4/zoom-video-conferencing-vulnerability-lets-hackers-turn-on-your-webcam
> [3]
>
[https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/03/what-you-should-know-about-online-tools-during-covid-19-crisis

Good point. I did not install it for the reason, but still it is easy to
use - the target group has most probably all iPhone or Android and Facebook
etc. Right - so in the context, it is not a bigger issue than the one that
already exists

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Russell L. Harris]

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 10:27:59PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 03:09:47PM -0500, Anil Felipe Duggirala wrote:



I second Zoom. You can install it via flatpak, which might make you
feel better. I tried jitsi some time ago, I think that will require
a bit more setup for sure.



It's proprietary, right?


According to the jitsi.org web site, Jitsi provides "Multi-platform
open-source video conferencing".

You can conference through a server at jitsi.org, or you can download
a jitsi package (a Debian package is available) which you can install
on your own server and run with complete independence from jitsi.org.

At the moment, the Debian STABLE repository contains no Jitsi package.
Inasmuch as I make it a rule never to install on my primary machine
Debian packages other than those which downloaded from the Debian
repository, I installed Debian on a spare machine, and installed on
that machine the Debian package from jitsi.org.  jitsi worked nicely
for me.

RLH

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Yvan Masson]

I definitely recommend Jitsi Meet: there is nothing to install on both 
sides, and many companies/people already provide free servers you can 
use for any purpose without registration, for example:

- https://meet.jit.si
- https://suricate.tv (french server/company)

I know teachers that are using it these days with many students (30+) 
and it works (at least with webcam / and mic switched off for students. 
You can easily share your entire screen or just a window.


If you need more free servers, I can provide a few others (french only).

Yvan


Le 31/03/2020 à 21:56, Reco a écrit :

Hi.

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 01:44:14PM -0300, Markos wrote:

Hi Friends,

My wife is a teacher and is trying to teach remote lessons using only WhatsApp 
video calls.

To help her I am looking for a package in the Debian repository to organize 
virtual classes for small groups, 5 or 6 students maximum.

Any suggestion of an open-source program easy-to-configure and easy-to-use for 
this?


https://openmeetings.apache.org/

Not in Debian, but relatively easy to install and use.
Requires 100Mbps symmetric connection, about 4Gb of RAM.

Reco

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[tomas]

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 10:27:28PM +0200, n...@dismail.de wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 08:17:56PM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> > […] Recently I was looking at zoom.us - seems to be in
> > hype now - can be installed in debian and can be used as video conferencing
> > tool.
> 
> Based on zoom's "privacy" policy and everything I've herad so far about it,
> I would not recommend using zoom. Some examples:

[...]

Shudder. OK, for me (and my customers) it's toast. Thanks for
pointing that out.

Cheers
-- t


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Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[nito]

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 08:17:56PM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> […] Recently I was looking at zoom.us - seems to be in
> hype now - can be installed in debian and can be used as video conferencing
> tool.

Based on zoom's "privacy" policy and everything I've herad so far about it,
I would not recommend using zoom. Some examples:
- Just a week or so ago it was exposed that zoom was sharing data with facebook
  without informing the user about it or giving any choice on that. Alledgedly
  they stopped it now [1]
- Zoom created Security-Holes with it's Mac-Client, that persisted even after
  deinstalling zoom on OSX. [2]  Personally I wouldn't trust their other 
clients 
  either.
- Zoom can collect more data about you then you might think and share this with 
  the meeting-creator. [3]
  
[1] https://www.komando.com/security-privacy/zoom-ios-app-facebook/732681/
[2] 
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8xzjj4/zoom-video-conferencing-vulnerability-lets-hackers-turn-on-your-webcam
[3] 
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/03/what-you-should-know-about-online-tools-during-covid-19-crisis

Jitsi has already been mentioned and while I only ever used it for smaller 
groups, from what I've heard it can also handle larger groups, though in that 
case you might need to host your own instance on a server with enough bandwith.
That's if just a simple video conference is enough for this use case.

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[tomas]

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 03:09:47PM -0500, Anil Felipe Duggirala wrote:

[...]

> I second Zoom. You can install it via flatpak, which might make you feel 
> better. I tried jitsi some time ago, I think that will require a bit more 
> setup for sure. 

It's proprietary, right?

-- t


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Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Anil Felipe Duggirala]

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020, at 1:17 PM, deloptes wrote:
> Bob Weber wrote:
> 
> > > Also think of administrative overhead. I would look into web tools 
> > > instead.
> Years ago we were doing few things with moodle - but it is huge and mostly
> pays off only at institutional level. Since then I have not looked into
> what is available, but I am sure there are plenty of open source free web
> tools that can be used. Recently I was looking at zoom.us - seems to be in
> hype now - can be installed in debian and can be used as video conferencing
> tool.
> 
I second Zoom. You can install it via flatpak, which might make you feel 
better. I tried jitsi some time ago, I think that will require a bit more setup 
for sure. 

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Reco]

Hi.

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 01:44:14PM -0300, Markos wrote:
> Hi Friends,
> 
> My wife is a teacher and is trying to teach remote lessons using only 
> WhatsApp video calls.
> 
> To help her I am looking for a package in the Debian repository to organize 
> virtual classes for small groups, 5 or 6 students maximum.
> 
> Any suggestion of an open-source program easy-to-configure and easy-to-use 
> for this?

https://openmeetings.apache.org/

Not in Debian, but relatively easy to install and use.
Requires 100Mbps symmetric connection, about 4Gb of RAM.

Reco

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Berkhan Berkdemir]

I would highly recommend to check Jitsi [0]. Offers *almost* the same features 
that Zoom has.

[0]: https://jitsi.org

On March 31, 2020 9:44:14 AM PDT, Markos  wrote:
>Hi Friends,
>
>My wife is a teacher and is trying to teach remote lessons using only 
>WhatsApp video calls.
>
>To help her I am looking for a package in the Debian repository to 
>organize virtual classes for small groups, 5 or 6 students maximum.
>
>Any suggestion of an open-source program easy-to-configure and 
>easy-to-use for this?
>
>Preferably a Debian package?
>
>Thank you,
>
>Markos

--
Please excuse any tpyos as it was sent from my K-9.

Berkhan Berkdemir
www.berkhanberkdemir.com

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Jude DaShiell]

barnard for command line users and mumble for graphical users can
connect to the same channel and the interface will be video not just
text.

On Tue, 31 Mar 2020, Markos wrote:

> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 12:44:14
> From: Markos 
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Small Open Source Digital Classroom
> Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 17:08:49 + (UTC)
> Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>
> Hi Friends,
>
> My wife is a teacher and is trying to teach remote lessons using only WhatsApp
> video calls.
>
> To help her I am looking for a package in the Debian repository to organize
> virtual classes for small groups, 5 or 6 students maximum.
>
> Any suggestion of an open-source program easy-to-configure and easy-to-use for
> this?
>
> Preferably a Debian package?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Markos
>
>

-- 

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[deloptes]

Bob Weber wrote:

> Have you seen Debian education? Start here and see if there are any
> programs that your wife could use.  They probably would need the students
> to have Debian on their computers or you could use vnc so they could all
> see what the teacher is doing on her computer (possible security problems
> maybe make students only view without write).
> 
> https://blends.debian.org/edu/tasks/
> 

Sorry to make this comment, but for professional use, please, recommend
something that _is_ working. Most of the damage done to linux desktop is of
things not fully working or not working at all

Also think of administrative overhead. I would look into web tools instead.
Years ago we were doing few things with moodle - but it is huge and mostly
pays off only at institutional level. Since then I have not looked into
what is available, but I am sure there are plenty of open source free web
tools that can be used. Recently I was looking at zoom.us - seems to be in
hype now - can be installed in debian and can be used as video conferencing
tool.

Don't waste time on VNC - what a BS idea! If I were the teacher I would be
ashamed if my students had to use it.

On the fly google "linux free class room software" says

https://www.goodfirms.co/blog/the-9-best-free-and-open-source-digital-classroom-management-software
https://www.linux.com/news/best-linux-tools-teachers-and-students/
https://blog.capterra.com/the-top-free-digital-classroom-management-software-and-classroom-collaboration-tools/

Re: Small Open Source Digital Classroom

[Bob Weber]

On 3/31/20 12:44 PM, Markos wrote:


Hi Friends,

My wife is a teacher and is trying to teach remote lessons using only WhatsApp 
video calls.


To help her I am looking for a package in the Debian repository to organize 
virtual classes for small groups, 5 or 6 students maximum.


Any suggestion of an open-source program easy-to-configure and easy-to-use for 
this?


Preferably a Debian package?

Thank you,

Markos

Have you seen Debian education? Start here and see if there are any programs 
that your wife could use.  They probably would need the students to have Debian 
on their computers or you could use vnc so they could all see what the teacher 
is doing on her computer (possible security problems maybe make students only 
view without write).


https://blends.debian.org/edu/tasks/ 


--


*...Bob*