Ric, was Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 07:24:37 Lisi Reisz wrote: Lisi, your gmail account is bouncing msgs from me. My server may be on a blacklist gmail watches I guess. Anyway, PM relayed to another list that cares, thanks for the heads up. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201508051224.16585.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Sunday 05 April 2015 09:03:08 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 17:57:02 Gene Heskett wrote: The film show seems to be the only way I can present what I've done in a manner that should not generate a 6 week long thread arguing about what I did or did not do to cause my own headache if indeed it is my mistake. If you would like help, then please DON'T do a film show. Just a series of still shots, the equivalent of screenshots, showing each step you take. Preferably before taking the next one. That is my intention. Tell us by email what you want to do next, with a hyperlink to the picture, and we'll try to help you do it. That won't fly, its this machine that does the serving and its this machine that I will be doing the install on. So the email per pix taken isn't possible. Pix yes, but they will be after the fact, wether I succeed or not, and likely put up after I swap back to this drive boot to it, upload the pix to this machine and process them. Do a step, send the email, wait for a reply instructing next step for each step isn't possible on the same machine, and none of the others are even close to being setup to do that. Lisi Cheers Lisi, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504050942.55255.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Sunday 05 April 2015 14:42:55 Gene Heskett wrote: On Sunday 05 April 2015 09:03:08 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 17:57:02 Gene Heskett wrote: The film show seems to be the only way I can present what I've done in a manner that should not generate a 6 week long thread arguing about what I did or did not do to cause my own headache if indeed it is my mistake. If you would like help, then please DON'T do a film show. Just a series of still shots, the equivalent of screenshots, showing each step you take. Preferably before taking the next one. That is my intention. Tell us by email what you want to do next, with a hyperlink to the picture, and we'll try to help you do it. That won't fly, its this machine that does the serving and its this machine that I will be doing the install on. So the email per pix taken isn't possible. Pix yes, but they will be after the fact, wether I succeed or not, and likely put up after I swap back to this drive boot to it, upload the pix to this machine and process them. Oh, well. Needs must. We must do the best with what is possible. Yes, you have said that you only have the one machine. My bad. Lisi Do a step, send the email, wait for a reply instructing next step for each step isn't possible on the same machine, and none of the others are even close to being setup to do that. Lisi Cheers Lisi, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504051457.41808.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 17:57:02 Gene Heskett wrote: The film show seems to be the only way I can present what I've done in a manner that should not generate a 6 week long thread arguing about what I did or did not do to cause my own headache if indeed it is my mistake. If you would like help, then please DON'T do a film show. Just a series of still shots, the equivalent of screenshots, showing each step you take. Preferably before taking the next one. Tell us by email what you want to do next, with a hyperlink to the picture, and we'll try to help you do it. If, on the other hand, you just what to show off your camera and don't want any help with the installer, go ahead and do a film show. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504051403.08456.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Fri, 03 Apr 2015 12:30:45 -0400 The Wanderer wande...@fastmail.fm wrote: Not necessarily as easy as you might think. You'd need to be careful to make sure that nothing got autostarted (or left running on logout) which would try to access files under /home/*/ - and though I don't know of anything offhand which would necessarily do that, I wouldn't want to assume that nothing would. If you are running Jessie, you can use loginctl terminate-user USER, and if there is anything left, loginctl kill-user USER. For Wheezy I don't know, though. Just my 2 cents :) Petter -- I'm ionized Are you sure? I'm positive. pgpxhrxAv2Ut8.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 00:34:53 Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 18:09:38 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 22:39:32 Gene Heskett wrote: Sorry Brian, that is ***generally*** shorthand for equivalent (my stars) No - it is another Gene special. Lisi Two great countries, Lisi, separated by a common language. The abbreviation 'equ' has been in common use on this side of the pond in **technical literature* such as service manuals for at least 65 years that I personally know of. That is NOT common language. That is specialist language! A Common Language indeed. :) Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504040940.02081.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On 04/03/2015 10:52 AM, David Wright wrote: Quoting Gene Heskett (ghesk...@wdtv.com): On Thursday 02 April 2015 19:20:50 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Thursday 02 April 2015 22:35:29 Gene Heskett wrote: /home is just a directory on / here since the broken installer will not do it any other way. I know that it has been said before, but there may be people new to the list reading this. I used the same broken installer, and my /home is separate from /. Lisi I appreciate that you have done that Lisi, but this hybrid.iso from linuxcnc.org, downloadable from a link right one on the front page, and using the wheezy repos for updates, simply cannot be beaten into submission to do that. Regardless of the mechinations I have tried, it plain and simply loops back to the partition drive screen if you do not just let it do what it wants to do, which is two real partitions, one for /, and one for swap at 2x the memory it finds in the machine. ANYTHING else you try to do and it loops back to restart the drive partitioning again. I even tried to prepartition the drive with other tools, but none of those settups were recognized by the installers partitioner. This hybrid install iso, can also function when written to a usb key, but this now elderly Asus M2N-SLI Deluxe mobo's latest #1701 bios cannot be booted from usb. WHAT? Are you telling us that the Broken Installer that was the subject of long discussions from 20th January to 9th February, the installer that you've been badmouthing on the slightest provocation ever since, is *not* the Debian installer? When he mentioned drives in a hot swap cage, isn't that RAID?? Then didn't the installer made the correct call? :/ Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/551f8781.4020...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 20:44:46 David Wright wrote: Quoting Gene Heskett (ghesk...@wdtv.com): On Friday 03 April 2015 18:09:38 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 22:39:32 Gene Heskett wrote: Sorry Brian, that is ***generally*** shorthand for equivalent (my stars) No - it is another Gene special. Lisi Two great countries, Lisi, separated by a common language. The abbreviation 'equ' has been in common use on this side of the pond in technical literature such as service manuals for at least 65 years that I personally know of. A Common Language indeed. :) I must admit I'm getting fed up with having to keep http://www.acronymfinder.com/ open all the time for the likes of swag, a Scientific Wild Assed Guess, usually somewhat more valid than a WAG, but its still a Guess. ;-) sob, has 2 aliases, signed off by full name on the linux kernel mailing list's or more commonly son of a female dog tbe, To Be Exact pima, same as PITA but its My instead of The vswr, Voltage Standing Wave Ratio, mathematically describes the ratio of power going out verses the amount of power coming back as measured in the voltage domain, usually refered to in the scenario of an antenna or tramsmission line or both combined. The ideal but virtually never accomplished ratio would be 1/1. In broadcasting scenarios, a 1.05/1 ratio usually initiates a protective shutdown. In Ultra High Frequency broadcasting on channel 19, thats not good enough because of transmission line loses, which make it look better than it is on the ground where the measuring facilities are. In bad weather, with 30 kilowatts of power at the bottom of a 1000 foot run of 6.125 inch diameter rigid coaxial transmission line, that has started a fire inside the line at the top of the tower, and burned up all the teflon in 660 feet of transmission line before it tripped. By the time the tower crew has cleaned it up, replaced the burned up teflon and packed up to go home, it can be north of $50,000 AND 3 weeks off the air. cf, cluster f--k. No idea where it originated, but common in these here parts for decades. idk, I Don't Know C.E.T., Certified Electronics Technician, I am one, registered as NEB-118. That card, dropped on the HR department desk when the department is looking to hire an electronics technician, raises eyebrows AND the salary that will be offered, considerably as it says the carrier of that card does know what he is talking about and can do the job. ADAT, brand name and format for a very high quality digital audio tape recorder, used in mastering music for the final recording and editing before making the audio cd's by the millions. 4.5 digit pricy, so you won't find one in the average home recording studio. With the availability of DAW's, Digital Audio Workstation's for a $200 or $300 card in your computer and a planetccrm linux install that costs 10% of the price of the ADAT, the ADAT is now quite old rare technology. to quote a few. (And often there are *too many* matches for convenience.) English is my mother tongue, which helps, but there are people here for whom that is not the case. Also very true, so I will attempt to reduce my use of the jargon of the trade. On this list... Cheers, David. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504040301.30544.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
Hi. On Sat, 4 Apr 2015 09:04:53 +0200 Petter Adsen pet...@synth.no wrote: On Fri, 03 Apr 2015 12:30:45 -0400 The Wanderer wande...@fastmail.fm wrote: Not necessarily as easy as you might think. You'd need to be careful to make sure that nothing got autostarted (or left running on logout) which would try to access files under /home/*/ - and though I don't know of anything offhand which would necessarily do that, I wouldn't want to assume that nothing would. If you are running Jessie, you can use loginctl terminate-user USER, and if there is anything left, loginctl kill-user USER. For Wheezy I don't know, though. pgrep -lU $USER pkill -TERM -U $USER pgrep -lU $USER pkill -KILL -U $USER Be universal. Don't depend on systemd for such easy task. Reco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150404120609.e9b15ae02a536e3bef714...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 08:01:30 Gene Heskett wrote: C.E.T., Certified Electronics Technician, I am one, registered as NEB-118. That card, dropped on the HR department desk when the department is looking to hire an electronics technician, raises eyebrows AND the salary that will be offered, considerably as it says the carrier of that card does know what he is talking about and can do the job. Sorry, Gene. What you say here may be true, but it means absolutely nothing to most of us on this list. It still means nothing to me, I'm afraid. You have the qualification required for the job you do. So, I would think, have most of us. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504041005.43026.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 05:06:09 Reco wrote: Hi. On Sat, 4 Apr 2015 09:04:53 +0200 Petter Adsen pet...@synth.no wrote: On Fri, 03 Apr 2015 12:30:45 -0400 The Wanderer wande...@fastmail.fm wrote: Not necessarily as easy as you might think. You'd need to be careful to make sure that nothing got autostarted (or left running on logout) which would try to access files under /home/*/ - and though I don't know of anything offhand which would necessarily do that, I wouldn't want to assume that nothing would. If you are running Jessie, you can use loginctl terminate-user USER, and if there is anything left, loginctl kill-user USER. For Wheezy I don't know, though. pgrep -lU $USER pkill -TERM -U $USER pgrep -lU $USER pkill -KILL -U $USER Be universal. Don't depend on systemd for such easy task. Reco Here is one such message I'll mark, Reco, but I'll mark it because I am not familiar with the p as a prefix to what I know as common commands. It turns out that the man page(s) are interesting reading. Thank you for showing its use and making me curious. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504040745.58630.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 02:41:05 Ric Moore wrote: On 04/03/2015 10:52 AM, David Wright wrote: Quoting Gene Heskett (ghesk...@wdtv.com): [...] When he mentioned drives in a hot swap cage, isn't that RAID?? Then didn't the installer made the correct call? :/ Ric No raid involved Ric, just 3 drives in a hot swap cage, tigerdirect.com did have them, about a $70 bill when I bought this one after Jim showed me that was what he was using in all his new builds at the tv station. Here, sda is the drive I am booted from, sdb is a previous install in case I need something that wasn't copied over sdc is the virtual tape drive, playing like its 30 big backup tapes for amanda, the Advanced Maryland Automatic Network Disk Archiver, the backup program. If I Recall Correctly, available up to 6 drives wide in case you want a boot drive and a 5 drive raid. Truely excellent drive cooling too. Mine stay under 100F full time. If you'd like one, I suggest getting it now as the advent of Solid State Drives is probably making them obsolete in the Chinese makers view. But the hot swap has never been tested, I always power down. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504040332.02538.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 02:43:47 Petter Adsen wrote: On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 20:29:04 -0400 Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: snip Does this server take 2.5 megabyte pictures? I'll take them with my Nikon L100 camera as I go. Thats the size of its usual jpeg output, per picture. Gene, Please don't post a number of 2.5M pictures here if you can avoid it, even if the server allows it. Some people are on metered connections and such evils. It would be much better if you could use a pastebin-like service to upload them to, and then post the links. I believe imgur.com will let you do this, or you can use Dropbox if you have an account there. Petter True, but then I also have my own web page (physically on this machine, last line of the signature) and can post them there far easier than some commercial service. The disadvantage is the uplink speed. Small, 2.5 megabaud pipe. Even the front page pix of me the better half is smunched to give the impression of speed. I'll use jigl to make a slide show thats well compressed. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504040341.04577.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 05:05:43 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 08:01:30 Gene Heskett wrote: C.E.T., Certified Electronics Technician, I am one, registered as NEB-118. That card, dropped on the HR department desk when the department is looking to hire an electronics technician, raises eyebrows AND the salary that will be offered, considerably as it says the carrier of that card does know what he is talking about and can do the job. Sorry, Gene. What you say here may be true, but it means absolutely nothing to most of us on this list. That particular item is an American-ism. OTOH, I'd expect that there are similar programs for professionals that are fairly widely spread. Shysters in the business have caused a demand for some sort of a testing program and certifications for those that pass. In some states you cannot get a business and tax license for your business without it by state law. California was one such early adopter, and opening a fly by night shop without the certification has been felony there since before I was last there when the '70's were wearing down. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that the British (and the EU by inference) have a similar program, but probably under an obviously British name locally to Britain, and one I might not recognize in print or spoken. It still means nothing to me, I'm afraid. You have the qualification required for the job you do. So, I would think, have most of us. Lisi Absolutely Lisi. No one knows better than I that there is no one on the planet who knows everything. But collectively, these lists, this one included, where everyone knows something, there are enough somebodies that the collective IQ is mind boggling. Way above me, thats for sure. I am sorry if I don't say so often enough. A message that contains a tidbit of information I might find useful at some point in the future, gets marked as important just so kmail doesn't expire it. Since I didn't join until early February this year, there are at least 25 such messages saved probably ought to be a hundred more because I didn't recognize the importance of it at the time. That is 100% my problem if I let something go by without recognizing it. That happens, more frequently than I like to admit, but there it is. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504040740.29248.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 08:01:30 Gene Heskett wrote: cf, cluster f--k. No idea where it originated, but common in these here parts for decades. I couldn't find that one on the acronym site!! Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504041120.24474.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Sat, Apr 04, 2015 at 11:20:24AM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 08:01:30 Gene Heskett wrote: cf, cluster f--k. No idea where it originated, but common in these here parts for decades. I couldn't find that one on the acronym site!! I thought cf. was compare[d] with, or something like that. -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150404103153.GA2664@tal
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 20:29:04 -0400 Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: snip Does this server take 2.5 megabyte pictures? I'll take them with my Nikon L100 camera as I go. Thats the size of its usual jpeg output, per picture. Gene, Please don't post a number of 2.5M pictures here if you can avoid it, even if the server allows it. Some people are on metered connections and such evils. It would be much better if you could use a pastebin-like service to upload them to, and then post the links. I believe imgur.com will let you do this, or you can use Dropbox if you have an account there. Petter -- I'm ionized Are you sure? I'm positive. pgpLJFkdtSPtv.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 13:39:46 -0400 Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 12:25:01 Chris Bannister wrote: I vaguely recall fighting with the partitioning stage at one point in the past but I think the 7.7 netinst I tried recently was much improved. There might be one particular step which is tripping Gene up, and once the oh! duh! slaps forehead moment passes, he'll be right. I would welcome that moment. I just need to ask, Gene, as you mentioned something about running a patched version of Wheezy for your machines - is it possible that they have somehow (badly) patched the installer to get a certain partition setup, and doesn't allow anything else? Petter -- I'm ionized Are you sure? I'm positive. pgpvBMWYYZKo4.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 03:15:15 Petter Adsen wrote: On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 13:39:46 -0400 Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 12:25:01 Chris Bannister wrote: I vaguely recall fighting with the partitioning stage at one point in the past but I think the 7.7 netinst I tried recently was much improved. There might be one particular step which is tripping Gene up, and once the oh! duh! slaps forehead moment passes, he'll be right. I would welcome that moment. I just need to ask, Gene, as you mentioned something about running a patched version of Wheezy for your machines - is it possible that they have somehow (badly) patched the installer to get a certain partition setup, and doesn't allow anything else? Petter I'd have real serious doubts about that Petter, no reason to as LinuxCNC, other than needing the RTAI patched kernel for its I/O, can live happily with any common drive setup I have ever done over better than the last decade. These guys, while fairly savvy with computers, are for the most part, Machinists first as thats what pays the bills. Given their druthers spare time, or an itch to scratch, they would put their efforts into a better gui to run it with. Or running down bugs and fixing them. Generally speaking, its been years since I have encountered a show stopper bug. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504040359.38511.ghesk...@wdtv.com
[OT] Use of language on this list was: Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 01:44:46 David Wright wrote: Quoting Gene Heskett (ghesk...@wdtv.com): On Friday 03 April 2015 18:09:38 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 22:39:32 Gene Heskett wrote: Sorry Brian, that is ***generally*** shorthand for equivalent (my stars) No - it is another Gene special. Lisi Two great countries, Lisi, separated by a common language. The abbreviation 'equ' has been in common use on this side of the pond in technical literature such as service manuals for at least 65 years that I personally know of. A Common Language indeed. :) I must admit I'm getting fed up with having to keep http://www.acronymfinder.com/ open all the time for the likes of swag sob tbe pima vswr cf idk cet adat to quote a few. (And often there are *too many* matches for convenience.) I failed on some of that!! English is my mother tongue, which helps, No, I think it is a hindrance where Gene is concerned. He simply refuses to communucate in the English that the rest of us talk. And because it is our native tongue we expect to understand it. A non-native speaker who couldn't understand, would accept it and (erroneously) put it down to his/her lack of knowledge of the language. I think he takes some sort of pride in knowing all this abstruse language, and he certainly doesn't actually want to communicate. I have to look vast amounts up in his emails, and I too am a native speaker. Even after looking up, I often don't understand - or pick what he later claims was the wrong expansion of an acronym. I too am fed up with it. Why can't he actually type out these awful jargon acronyms? And avoid this extra abstruse vocabulary? Because we might actually understand if he did, and writing stuff we can't understand seems to make him feel superior. But this is the English language list, Perhaps we should insist on a known dialect of English, that is spoken by more than one person. Lisi but there are people here for whom that is not the case. Cheers, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504040959.22661.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 08:41:04 Gene Heskett wrote: I'll use jigl to make a slide show thats well compressed. Please don't. Some of us have visual impairments. Just post the pictures. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504041008.02466.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: [OT] Use of language on this list was: Re: firefox-37, where to put
On 04/04/15 10:59, Lisi Reisz wrote: Why can't he actually type out these awful jargon acronyms? And avoid this extra abstruse vocabulary? Because we might actually understand if he did, and writing stuff we can't understand seems to make him feel superior. But this is the English language list, Perhaps we should insist on a known dialect of English, that is spoken by more than one person. I believe the solution is quite simple: If I don't understand (part of) a message, I'll just ignore it. If the originator of that message is asking for help, he's unlikely to get it from me. -- Tony van der Hoff | mailto:t...@vanderhoff.org Ariège, France | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/551faa0d.9020...@vanderhoff.org
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 11:31:53 Chris Bannister wrote: On Sat, Apr 04, 2015 at 11:20:24AM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 08:01:30 Gene Heskett wrote: cf, cluster f--k. No idea where it originated, but common in these here parts for decades. I couldn't find that one on the acronym site!! I thought cf. was compare[d] with, or something like that. yes. But I couldn't find cluster f--k or anything like it, and context (and Gene) suggested that it didn't there mean confer (compare). Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504041139.57330.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 04:40:02 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 00:34:53 Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 18:09:38 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 22:39:32 Gene Heskett wrote: Sorry Brian, that is ***generally*** shorthand for equivalent (my stars) No - it is another Gene special. Lisi Two great countries, Lisi, separated by a common language. The abbreviation 'equ' has been in common use on this side of the pond in **technical literature* such as service manuals for at least 65 years that I personally know of. That is NOT common language. That is specialist language! Oh oh, did I miss the memo that revoked the specialist status of all linux users? Not a windoze sheeple, never have been (except after I bought an HP laptop with xp on it which 2 days later had the windows partition shrunk and ManDrake installed, so I'd have something I could take on the road when I was consulting) and never will be a winderz slave. I could sworn that makes everybody on these lists a specialist. So I must have missed the memo. Can someone please send me a copy of it? A Common Language indeed. :) Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504040655.18501.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
* Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com [2015-04-01 22:54 -0400]: Greetings all; [...] So I just dl'd firefox-37 tarball for 64 bit linux and unpacked it into my home dirs bin subdir. But thats likely not going to be great as it probably looks someplace else for its libraries such. So where is the std place it would normally live? If it can still find the old iceweasel password cache, that would be a huge plus. Did you checked out: http://mozilla.debian.net/ http://mozilla.debian.net/pool/iceweasel-release/i/iceweasel/ ? -- Alles was viel bedacht wird ist bedenklich!;-) Friedrich Nietzsche -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150404111001.ga24...@galadriel.home.lxtec.de
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 11:55:18 Gene Heskett wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 04:40:02 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 00:34:53 Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 18:09:38 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 22:39:32 Gene Heskett wrote: Sorry Brian, that is ***generally*** shorthand for equivalent (my stars) No - it is another Gene special. Lisi Two great countries, Lisi, separated by a common language. The abbreviation 'equ' has been in common use on this side of the pond in **technical literature* such as service manuals for at least 65 years that I personally know of. That is NOT common language. That is specialist language! Oh oh, did I miss the memo that revoked the specialist status of all linux users? Not a windoze sheeple, never have been (except after I bought an HP laptop with xp on it which 2 days later had the windows partition shrunk and ManDrake installed, so I'd have something I could take on the road when I was consulting) and never will be a winderz slave. I could sworn that makes everybody on these lists a specialist. So I must have missed the memo. Can someone please send me a copy of it? https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ Support for Debian users who speak English. You are meant to speak English, not specialist jargon. The idea, for most people anyway, is to be understood. You seem to take delight in being as incomprehensible as possible. No-one is requiring you to be a Windows slave. But you cannot call very specialist languge common. At least, since you clearly can and do, you cannot do so rationally. If you want to speak in technical jargon, then do so on the cnc list. At least most of them might understand it. Or the electrical technicians list or something. I would remind you of the Wiktionary definition of jargon: jargon A technical terminology unique to a particular subject. Language characteristic of a particular group. Speech or language that is incomprehensible or unintelligible; gibberish. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jargon Talking gibberish is annoying and unhelpful. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504041232.08682.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 07:10:01 Elimar Riesebieter wrote: * Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com [2015-04-01 22:54 -0400]: Greetings all; [...] So I just dl'd firefox-37 tarball for 64 bit linux and unpacked it into my home dirs bin subdir. But thats likely not going to be great as it probably looks someplace else for its libraries such. So where is the std place it would normally live? If it can still find the old iceweasel password cache, that would be a huge plus. Did you checked out: http://mozilla.debian.net/ http://mozilla.debian.net/pool/iceweasel-release/i/iceweasel/ ? Can't say as I have Elimer. In the meantime iceweasel seems to have recovered and is working about as expected with no flashplayer. Thank you. -- Alles was viel bedacht wird ist bedenklich!;-) Friedrich Nietzsche Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504040843.36904.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 06:31:53 Chris Bannister wrote: On Sat, Apr 04, 2015 at 11:20:24AM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 08:01:30 Gene Heskett wrote: cf, cluster f--k. No idea where it originated, but common in these here parts for decades. I couldn't find that one on the acronym site!! I thought cf. was compare[d] with, or something like that. I think, now that you mention it Chris, I have seen it used in that context. Quite a few times on my watch in fact. -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504040836.40738.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Fri 03 Apr 2015 at 20:29:04 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 18:38:06 Brian wrote: Your turn now for some gauntlet picking up and a keystroke by keystroke account. :) There is no significant space available on the disk to install to. The only way to get an OS on it is to use the existing partition(s). Scuse me? Certainly. Every other partitioning tool on the planet, from fdisk on is capable of creating a blank partition table in memory, letting you add new partitions to it etc etc. And when you are done, they will blindly write this newly composed table to the disk, no questions asked. And yet you _all_ are telling me this tool is incapable of doing that? I said nothing of the sort. All my responses have been in the context of using d-i. That goes for others too. What is the difference between deleting all existing partitions and creating new ones in the now blank table? and just making a new table and writing it. There should be no difference because in each case it is overwriting what was originally there. FWIW I did try that once, with exactly the same results. None, I think. But it didn't work for you; where you placed the blame then I've forgotten. I rest my case. In any event were are doing nothing but argueing until the drives that will give me some toys to play with get here late next week. I'll have lost the will to live by then. Reciprocation rather than a film show would have speeded things up. :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/04042015165402.76573dccc...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 09:04:33 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 13:18:15 Gene Heskett wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 05:08:02 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 08:41:04 Gene Heskett wrote: I'll use jigl to make a slide show thats well compressed. Please don't. Some of us have visual impairments. Just post the pictures. Lisi jigl has the advantage of allowing the viewer to select how the slide is displayed. As you can see on several of the sublinks on my pages, the view opens with an array of thumbnails. Clicking on one of them brings it to about 1/4 screen view, and a further click on that image makes it full screen and another click then gives you the raw 10 megapixel image.jpeg as the camera spit it out, and you can scroll around to look at the finest details, even seeing both lens and imager abberations in the camera I used at the time. The back button on the browser will back you out of coarse. Some of that may be browser dependent but I just checked with chromium and it seems to work there also. Is that suitable? Fine for me! In fact, great. I didn't know that one could do that. It was the idea of a _moving_ slide show that produced the reaction. :-( Great my dear girl. It does have one glaring weakness though, it has no facilities to link a caption to the image, something that would be most helpfull. Someone adept at Java? should remedy that. But thats not me, I just drink the stuff. ;-) By the largest cup in the cupboard usually. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504041225.41479.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 13:18:15 Gene Heskett wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 05:08:02 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 08:41:04 Gene Heskett wrote: I'll use jigl to make a slide show thats well compressed. Please don't. Some of us have visual impairments. Just post the pictures. Lisi jigl has the advantage of allowing the viewer to select how the slide is displayed. As you can see on several of the sublinks on my pages, the view opens with an array of thumbnails. Clicking on one of them brings it to about 1/4 screen view, and a further click on that image makes it full screen and another click then gives you the raw 10 megapixel image.jpeg as the camera spit it out, and you can scroll around to look at the finest details, even seeing both lens and imager abberations in the camera I used at the time. The back button on the browser will back you out of coarse. Some of that may be browser dependent but I just checked with chromium and it seems to work there also. Is that suitable? Fine for me! In fact, great. I didn't know that one could do that. It was the idea of a _moving_ slide show that produced the reaction. :-( -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504041404.33954.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 05:08:02 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 08:41:04 Gene Heskett wrote: I'll use jigl to make a slide show thats well compressed. Please don't. Some of us have visual impairments. Just post the pictures. Lisi jigl has the advantage of allowing the viewer to select how the slide is displayed. As you can see on several of the sublinks on my pages, the view opens with an array of thumbnails. Clicking on one of them brings it to about 1/4 screen view, and a further click on that image makes it full screen and another click then gives you the raw 10 megapixel image.jpeg as the camera spit it out, and you can scroll around to look at the finest details, even seeing both lens and imager abberations in the camera I used at the time. The back button on the browser will back you out of coarse. Some of that may be browser dependent but I just checked with chromium and it seems to work there also. Is that suitable? Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504040818.15256.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 06:20:24 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 08:01:30 Gene Heskett wrote: cf, cluster f--k. No idea where it originated, but common in these here parts for decades. I couldn't find that one on the acronym site!! The general meaning seems to that whatever it was, was an epic, even legendary failure. A complete wreck, no salvage value left. The usual pa announcement in the department or grocery store of cleanup in aisle 3 does not adequately describe it. Lisi Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504040834.19669.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 13:43:14 David Wright wrote: Quoting Reco (recovery...@gmail.com): On Sat, 4 Apr 2015 09:04:53 +0200 Petter Adsen pet...@synth.no wrote: On Fri, 03 Apr 2015 12:30:45 -0400 The Wanderer wande...@fastmail.fm wrote: Not necessarily as easy as you might think. You'd need to be careful to make sure that nothing got autostarted (or left running on logout) which would try to access files under /home/*/ - and though I don't know of anything offhand which would necessarily do that, I wouldn't want to assume that nothing would. If you are running Jessie, you can use loginctl terminate-user USER, and if there is anything left, loginctl kill-user USER. For Wheezy I don't know, though. pgrep -lU $USER pkill -TERM -U $USER pgrep -lU $USER pkill -KILL -U $USER Be universal. Don't depend on systemd for such easy task. But that still doesn't address The Wanderer's point. For example, on one of my machines, a cron job pops up every minute, day and night, to see whether to record music off the radio. It just seems sensible to me to use single for what it's for, rather than try to fly-swat a number of corner cases (to mix metaphors). (Particularly if others, like gene, might archive this method.) Cheers, David. This business of using cron to drive much of my stuff amply illustrates this problem. But there are several other things that cron runs on my behalf, most of which have been running so long that the only time I notice them is when I realise, finally, that they have stopped. The above stuff would not prevent an attempt to execute some of them unless cron itself has been killed. Since this could be a valid concern, is that easily done? Possibly by, if systemd isn't running the show, making sure cron is not running in the single runlevel mode? Or is that already done. Time for a chkconfig session I think. Which runlevel is single? I get this from chkconfig --list cron 0:off 1:off 2:on 3:on 4:on 5:on 6:off And I also see this, which is why I had to hand start networking on the last reboot after expunging Network-Manager. networking0:off 1:off 2:off 3:off 4:off 5:off 6:off S:on So it looks as if I need to consult the manpage to see how to enable that. Thanks David, for bring up the subject. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504041414.21808.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
Hi. On Sat, 4 Apr 2015 12:43:14 -0500 David Wright deb...@lionunicorn.co.uk wrote: Quoting Reco (recovery...@gmail.com): On Sat, 4 Apr 2015 09:04:53 +0200 Petter Adsen pet...@synth.no wrote: On Fri, 03 Apr 2015 12:30:45 -0400 The Wanderer wande...@fastmail.fm wrote: Not necessarily as easy as you might think. You'd need to be careful to make sure that nothing got autostarted (or left running on logout) which would try to access files under /home/*/ - and though I don't know of anything offhand which would necessarily do that, I wouldn't want to assume that nothing would. If you are running Jessie, you can use loginctl terminate-user USER, and if there is anything left, loginctl kill-user USER. For Wheezy I don't know, though. pgrep -lU $USER pkill -TERM -U $USER pgrep -lU $USER pkill -KILL -U $USER Be universal. Don't depend on systemd for such easy task. But that still doesn't address The Wanderer's point. For example, on one of my machines, a cron job pops up every minute, day and night, to see whether to record music off the radio. There's nothing in that cannot be fixed with stopping cron, isn't it? But for the sake of completeness I'd like to add that fiddling with logind does not prevent cron jobs from starting either. It just seems sensible to me to use single for what it's for, rather than try to fly-swat a number of corner cases (to mix metaphors). (Particularly if others, like gene, might archive this method.) Single-user is a bulletproof way to be sure, but it requires a console access (which is not always available or is convenient). Killing all user processes *and* renaming /home is much simpler and almost correct way to accomplish the needed task. Reco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150404212459.6623307f1c1cb2d0ec9dc...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
Hi. On Sat, 4 Apr 2015 14:14:21 -0400 Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: Not necessarily as easy as you might think. You'd need to be careful to make sure that nothing got autostarted (or left running on logout) which would try to access files under /home/*/ - and though I don't know of anything offhand which would necessarily do that, I wouldn't want to assume that nothing would. If you are running Jessie, you can use loginctl terminate-user USER, and if there is anything left, loginctl kill-user USER. For Wheezy I don't know, though. pgrep -lU $USER pkill -TERM -U $USER pgrep -lU $USER pkill -KILL -U $USER Be universal. Don't depend on systemd for such easy task. But that still doesn't address The Wanderer's point. For example, on one of my machines, a cron job pops up every minute, day and night, to see whether to record music off the radio. It just seems sensible to me to use single for what it's for, rather than try to fly-swat a number of corner cases (to mix metaphors). (Particularly if others, like gene, might archive this method.) Cheers, David. This business of using cron to drive much of my stuff amply illustrates this problem. But there are several other things that cron runs on my behalf, most of which have been running so long that the only time I notice them is when I realise, finally, that they have stopped. The above stuff would not prevent an attempt to execute some of them unless cron itself has been killed. Since this could be a valid concern, is that easily done? Possibly by, if systemd isn't running the show, making sure cron is not running in the single runlevel mode? Or is that already done. Time for a chkconfig session I think. Unless you install badly-written third-party software - there should be small amount of processes running in single-user. From the top of my head - init, root's bash, iscsi daemon, nfs-client and dhcp-client. Nothing that writes in /home or /opt, that's for sure. Which runlevel is single? The one that is marked with '1'. I get this from chkconfig --list cron 0:off 1:off 2:on 3:on 4:on 5:on 6:off And as expected, cron should not run in single-user. And I also see this, which is why I had to hand start networking on the last reboot after expunging Network-Manager. networking0:off 1:off 2:off 3:off 4:off 5:off 6:off S:on update-rc.d networking enable Reco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150404213302.d096168b3fa7577dfddef...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 12:05:55 Brian wrote: On Fri 03 Apr 2015 at 20:29:04 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 18:38:06 Brian wrote: Your turn now for some gauntlet picking up and a keystroke by keystroke account. :) There is no significant space available on the disk to install to. The only way to get an OS on it is to use the existing partition(s). Scuse me? Certainly. Every other partitioning tool on the planet, from fdisk on is capable of creating a blank partition table in memory, letting you add new partitions to it etc etc. And when you are done, they will blindly write this newly composed table to the disk, no questions asked. And yet you _all_ are telling me this tool is incapable of doing that? I said nothing of the sort. All my responses have been in the context of using d-i. That goes for others too. d-i? expand please. What is the difference between deleting all existing partitions and creating new ones in the now blank table? and just making a new table and writing it. There should be no difference because in each case it is overwriting what was originally there. FWIW I did try that once, with exactly the same results. None, I think. But it didn't work for you; where you placed the blame then I've forgotten. I rest my case. In any event were are doing nothing but argueing until the drives that will give me some toys to play with get here late next week. I'll have lost the will to live by then. Aww, Gee. I hate it when that happens. :( Reciprocation rather than a film show would have speeded things up. :) I repeat, I did not keep a paper trail, and if I try to recall what I did, by the time I got done I was so frustrated I'd remember it wrong anyway. So there is no use broadcasting a sequence missing half the steps I did, it wastes time for all. Until the new pair of drives arrive (shipped UPS Friday), I haven't a drive to play with, and obviously I am not going to blow away this install to get that requested trace since its taken me this long to get it working as well as it is. The film show seems to be the only way I can present what I've done in a manner that should not generate a 6 week long thread arguing about what I did or did not do to cause my own headache if indeed it is my mistake. I will let the images speak for me since no one believes me. This drive will be safely laying on the table, to be inserted for recovery after the next install is tried. And I am tempted to do one wheezy install as a test, and then, running this one, wait for the final Jessie on April 25th, if its on time. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504041257.02649.ghesk...@wdtv.com
[OT] Re: firefox-37, where to put
Quoting Gene Heskett (ghesk...@wdtv.com): tbe, To Be Exact Even with a tested IQ of 147, the wet ram is now having problems of the short term memory variety, TBE when its 80 years old. Parses, but fails semantic analysis. Apologies for not adding OT earlier. Cheers, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150404165949.ga8...@alum.home
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On 04/04/2015 06:55 AM, Gene Heskett wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 04:40:02 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 00:34:53 Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 18:09:38 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 22:39:32 Gene Heskett wrote: Sorry Brian, that is ***generally*** shorthand for equivalent (my stars) No - it is another Gene special. Lisi Two great countries, Lisi, separated by a common language. The abbreviation 'equ' has been in common use on this side of the pond in **technical literature* such as service manuals for at least 65 years that I personally know of. That is NOT common language. That is specialist language! Aren't we roaming way way off-topic here? Can we pull this plug and take it to G+? :/ Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55202d62.7060...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Sat 04 Apr 2015 at 12:57:02 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 12:05:55 Brian wrote: I said nothing of the sort. All my responses have been in the context of using d-i. That goes for others too. d-i? expand please. Debian installer. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/04042015181722.d8288ec64...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On 04/04/2015 03:32 AM, Gene Heskett wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 02:41:05 Ric Moore wrote: On 04/03/2015 10:52 AM, David Wright wrote: Quoting Gene Heskett (ghesk...@wdtv.com): [...] When he mentioned drives in a hot swap cage, isn't that RAID?? Then didn't the installer made the correct call? :/ Ric No raid involved Ric, just 3 drives in a hot swap cage, tigerdirect.com did have them, about a $70 bill when I bought this one after Jim showed me that was what he was using in all his new builds at the tv station. Here, sda is the drive I am booted from, Is sda the hotplug cage of drives?? I BET you have raid. If so, then the installer wouldn't let you mess with it, which accounts for much. :) Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55202c5f.2000...@gmail.com
Re: [OT] Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 12:59:49 David Wright wrote: Quoting Gene Heskett (ghesk...@wdtv.com): tbe, To Be Exact Even with a tested IQ of 147, the wet ram is now having problems of the short term memory variety, TBE when its 80 years old. Parses, but fails semantic analysis. Ahh, I had to re-read that 3 or 4 times because I used TBE for To Be Expected in that case, my bad, no biscuit. I'd go to my room, but I'm already there. :( Apologies for not adding OT earlier. Cheers, David. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504041328.54992.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 13:19:52 Brian wrote: On Sat 04 Apr 2015 at 12:57:02 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 12:05:55 Brian wrote: I said nothing of the sort. All my responses have been in the context of using d-i. That goes for others too. d-i? expand please. Debian installer. Ahh so, thanks Brian. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504041331.41538.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
Quoting Reco (recovery...@gmail.com): On Sat, 4 Apr 2015 09:04:53 +0200 Petter Adsen pet...@synth.no wrote: On Fri, 03 Apr 2015 12:30:45 -0400 The Wanderer wande...@fastmail.fm wrote: Not necessarily as easy as you might think. You'd need to be careful to make sure that nothing got autostarted (or left running on logout) which would try to access files under /home/*/ - and though I don't know of anything offhand which would necessarily do that, I wouldn't want to assume that nothing would. If you are running Jessie, you can use loginctl terminate-user USER, and if there is anything left, loginctl kill-user USER. For Wheezy I don't know, though. pgrep -lU $USER pkill -TERM -U $USER pgrep -lU $USER pkill -KILL -U $USER Be universal. Don't depend on systemd for such easy task. But that still doesn't address The Wanderer's point. For example, on one of my machines, a cron job pops up every minute, day and night, to see whether to record music off the radio. It just seems sensible to me to use single for what it's for, rather than try to fly-swat a number of corner cases (to mix metaphors). (Particularly if others, like gene, might archive this method.) Cheers, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150404174314.gb8...@alum.home
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On 04/04/2015 03:31 PM, Gene Heskett wrote: df currently reports: Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on rootfs 944923028 128755476 768168168 15% / udev10240 0 10240 0% /dev tmpfs 819968 868 819100 1% /run /dev/disk/by-uuid/9fe9e68d-9827-4c8b-af4a-0753996f5e04 944923028 128755476 768168168 15% / tmpfs5120 0 5120 0% /run/lock tmpfs 4994340 0 4994340 0% /run/shm /dev/sdb2 960929128 607842648 304274040 67% /amandatapes shop.coyote.den:/ 234470400 7254784 215305216 4% /net/shop lathe.coyote.den:/ 1917316096 3143680 1816778496 1% /net/lathe shop:/home/gene 234470400 7254784 215305216 4% /net/shop/home/gene lathe:/home1917316096 3143680 1816778496 1% /net/lathe/home What do you have in fstab? Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5520406b.8030...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 15:50:03 Ric Moore wrote: On 04/04/2015 03:31 PM, Gene Heskett wrote: df currently reports: Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on rootfs 944923028 128755476 768168168 15% / udev 10240 0 10240 0% /dev tmpfs 819968 868 819100 1% /run /dev/disk/by-uuid/9fe9e68d-9827-4c8b-af4a-0753996f5e04 944923028 128755476 768168168 15% / tmpfs 5120 0 5120 0% /run/lock tmpfs 4994340 0 4994340 0% /run/shm /dev/sdb2 960929128 607842648 304274040 67% /amandatapes shop.coyote.den:/ 234470400 7254784 215305216 4% /net/shop lathe.coyote.den:/ 1917316096 3143680 1816778496 1% /net/lathe shop:/home/gene 234470400 7254784 215305216 4% /net/shop/home/gene lathe:/home 1917316096 3143680 1816778496 1% /net/lathe/home What do you have in fstab? Ric UUID=9fe9e68d-9827-4c8b-af4a-0753996f5e04 / ext4 errors=remount-ro 0 1 UUID=e03b6db9-47ff-4c59-9956-b5f69e3c5957 none swap sw 0 0 /dev/sr0/media/cdrom0 udf,iso9660 user,noauto0 0 shop.coyote.den:/ /net/shop nfs defaults 0 2 lathe.coyote.den:/ /net/lathe nfs defaults 0 2 UUID=b7657920-d9a2-4379-ae21-08a0651b65cc /amandatapes ext3 defaults 0 2 -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504041558.07504.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Saturday 04 April 2015 14:24:31 Ric Moore wrote: On 04/04/2015 03:32 AM, Gene Heskett wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2015 02:41:05 Ric Moore wrote: On 04/03/2015 10:52 AM, David Wright wrote: Quoting Gene Heskett (ghesk...@wdtv.com): [...] When he mentioned drives in a hot swap cage, isn't that RAID?? Then didn't the installer made the correct call? :/ Ric No raid involved Ric, just 3 drives in a hot swap cage, tigerdirect.com did have them, about a $70 bill when I bought this one after Jim showed me that was what he was using in all his new builds at the tv station. Here, sda is the drive I am booted from, Is sda the hotplug cage of drives?? Its in there yes, but there is no electronics in the cage other than the bldc commutation stuff in the fan motor. Each pocket has its own sata cable socket, connected to the corresponding sata socket on the motherboard. All individually connect and mounted in /etc/fstab. I BET you have raid. Pay up Ric! Uhh, what was the bet? :) If so, then the installer wouldn't let you mess with it, which accounts for much. :) Ric You might want to go dry off your theory before it gets all mushy, as its all wet. ;-) The motherboard manual says it has a both an nvidia nforce controller and jmicron, which can do raid up to 5 for the nvidia, and only 0/1 on the jmicron, and both do JBOD, but its never been configured as anything but individual drives. df currently reports: Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on rootfs 944923028 128755476 768168168 15% / udev10240 0 10240 0% /dev tmpfs 819968 868 819100 1% /run /dev/disk/by-uuid/9fe9e68d-9827-4c8b-af4a-0753996f5e04 944923028 128755476 768168168 15% / tmpfs5120 0 5120 0% /run/lock tmpfs 4994340 0 4994340 0% /run/shm /dev/sdb2 960929128 607842648 304274040 67% /amandatapes shop.coyote.den:/ 234470400 7254784 215305216 4% /net/shop lathe.coyote.den:/ 1917316096 3143680 1816778496 1% /net/lathe shop:/home/gene 234470400 7254784 215305216 4% /net/shop/home/gene lathe:/home1917316096 3143680 1816778496 1% /net/lathe/home Humm, never paid any attention to the drive size in the lathes box till now. No wonder they were hesitant to sell me that student special when I went to buy the 2nd one 4 months later. They actually had to, because the 250Gb drives were gone, to put a 2Tb drive in that machine in order to ship the full kit! And despite running the exact same installs, the lathe gives me a login for an ssh -Y session at least 5x faster than on the original. They are both ARK shoeboxes with an Intel D525MW atom based motherboard, a gig of ram, r-w optical drive. $265 with a throwaway keyboard, matching mouse, both wired, and mouse pad + a boom mic headset, sitting on my front deck after the brown truck was gone. -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504041531.27058.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 02:22:52 Reco wrote: Hi. On Thu, 2 Apr 2015 20:37:18 -0400 Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: On Thursday 02 April 2015 19:20:50 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Thursday 02 April 2015 22:35:29 Gene Heskett wrote: /home is just a directory on / here since the broken installer will not do it any other way. I know that it has been said before, but there may be people new to the list reading this. I used the same broken installer, and my /home is separate from /. Lisi I appreciate that you have done that Lisi, but this hybrid.iso from linuxcnc.org, downloadable from a link right one on the front page, and using the wheezy repos for updates, simply cannot be beaten into submission to do that. So, um, don't use this image, or something? The real debian installer lives here anyway: That install media installs a special RTAI patched 2.6.32 kernel, patched to do close to microsecond accurate realtime control over lathes and milling machines and other such machining centers with as many as 9 axis's to control. Even stopping some of these machines in the event of an error can take several milliseconds, but must be done as quickly as possible, it might be a human getting chewed up. One over in Cincinnati even gets recorded on the uni's seizmograph when it does an emergency stop. The work table itself is 26 feet long and weighs IIRC 44,000 lbs. Heap big fellow IOW. My stuff is hobby sized less than 250 lbs, but the principles are the same. Precise control if you want the work to be done precisely. http://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/stable/main/installer-amd64/current /images/ I'll get that when the new drives arrive. Besides, nobody forbids you to create a separate filesystem for /home after the install. I assume only by mounting a new drive at some temporary location, copying all the installed data from /home to it, then fixing fstab to mount that drive on top of the existing /home directory? I have done that in the past, but not in the last half decade as drives are outrageously big now. This also I think assumes the use of a LABEL=wheezyhome or some such non-confusing name. While blkid's are generally good too, I have actually had the ID string change by having a new drive already in service that was running on crutches, and a firmware update to fix the drive foobared its blkid. That makes me a bit wary of using the blkid's to mount stuff. Reco Thanks Reco. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504030316.15821.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
Hi. On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 03:16:15 -0400 Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 02:22:52 Reco wrote: Hi. On Thu, 2 Apr 2015 20:37:18 -0400 Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: On Thursday 02 April 2015 19:20:50 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Thursday 02 April 2015 22:35:29 Gene Heskett wrote: /home is just a directory on / here since the broken installer will not do it any other way. I know that it has been said before, but there may be people new to the list reading this. I used the same broken installer, and my /home is separate from /. Lisi I appreciate that you have done that Lisi, but this hybrid.iso from linuxcnc.org, downloadable from a link right one on the front page, and using the wheezy repos for updates, simply cannot be beaten into submission to do that. So, um, don't use this image, or something? The real debian installer lives here anyway: That install media installs a special RTAI patched 2.6.32 kernel, patched to do close to microsecond accurate realtime control over lathes and milling machines and other such machining centers with as many as 9 axis's to control. Even stopping some of these machines in the event of an error can take several milliseconds, but must be done as quickly as possible, it might be a human getting chewed up. One over in Cincinnati even gets recorded on the uni's seizmograph when it does an emergency stop. The work table itself is 26 feet long and weighs IIRC 44,000 lbs. Heap big fellow IOW. My stuff is hobby sized less than 250 lbs, but the principles are the same. Precise control if you want the work to be done precisely. Don't blame Debian installer then. I suspect those RTAI guys didn't stop at replacing kernel ;) http://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/stable/main/installer-amd64/current /images/ I'll get that when the new drives arrive. Besides, nobody forbids you to create a separate filesystem for /home after the install. I assume only by mounting a new drive at some temporary location, copying all the installed data from /home to it, then fixing fstab to mount that drive on top of the existing /home directory? I have done that in the past, but not in the last half decade as drives are outrageously big now. More-or-less yes. You forgot to mention emptying old home, but all needed stuff is there. This also I think assumes the use of a LABEL=wheezyhome or some such non-confusing name. That's one way of doing this. You can also use UUID, plain-old device names (/dev/sdb1, or something), or /dev/disk/by-id if you want to be on the safe side. While blkid's are generally good too, I have actually had the ID string change by having a new drive already in service that was running on crutches, and a firmware update to fix the drive foobared its blkid. That makes me a bit wary of using the blkid's to mount stuff. Yup, UUIDs are clunky :) Reco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150403104711.8674a5dec254c6fa27dc1...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 08:47:11 Reco wrote: I assume only by mounting a new drive at some temporary location, copying all the installed data from /home to it, then fixing fstab to mount that drive on top of the existing /home directory? I have done that in the past, but not in the last half decade as drives are outrageously big now. More-or-less yes. You forgot to mention emptying old home, but all needed stuff is there. I would say *instead of*, not *on top of*. And copying over is easy, when your new home is mounted via fstab. mkdir /oldhome mnt oldhome /oldhome cp -Rpu /oldhome/. /home/ Though you could, of course, do it in the other order, mounting oldhome as /home. But it would still be easy. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031001.43728.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 11:43:31AM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: Is mnt an alias to 'mv'? Or 'mount -o bind'? Or something else? No, mnt is mnt $ man mnt I've tried it before writing my last e-mail. And, there's a reason I asked. That reason is: $ man mnt No manual entry for mnt Moreover, [1] finds only /usr/lib/noweb/mnt as the only canditate to that executable. And chances are - you talk about a *different* mnt. So, no arguing here, mnt is *definitely* mnt. But *what* is that mnt of yours? [1] https://packages.debian.org/search?searchon=contentskeywords=mntmode=pathsuite=stablearch=any Reco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150403110945.gf10...@d1696.int.rdtex.ru
CORRECTION Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 10:01:43 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 08:47:11 Reco wrote: I assume only by mounting a new drive at some temporary location, copying all the installed data from /home to it, then fixing fstab to mount that drive on top of the existing /home directory? I have done that in the past, but not in the last half decade as drives are outrageously big now. More-or-less yes. You forgot to mention emptying old home, but all needed stuff is there. I would say *instead of*, not *on top of*. And copying over is easy, when your new home is mounted via fstab. mkdir /oldhome mnt oldhome /oldhome SHOULD BE: mount oldhome /oldhome My thanks to Reco for drawing this to my attention. Lisi cp -Rpu /oldhome/. /home/ Though you could, of course, do it in the other order, mounting oldhome as /home. But it would still be easy. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031227.16963.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
Hi. On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 10:01:43AM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 08:47:11 Reco wrote: I assume only by mounting a new drive at some temporary location, copying all the installed data from /home to it, then fixing fstab to mount that drive on top of the existing /home directory? I have done that in the past, but not in the last half decade as drives are outrageously big now. More-or-less yes. You forgot to mention emptying old home, but all needed stuff is there. I would say *instead of*, not *on top of*. And copying over is easy, when your new home is mounted via fstab. Clarification needed (see below): mkdir /oldhome mnt oldhome /oldhome Is mnt an alias to 'mv'? Or 'mount -o bind'? Or something else? cp -Rpu /oldhome/. /home/ Though you could, of course, do it in the other order, mounting oldhome as /home. But it would still be easy. I see at least one (minor) complication in such approach, and that is the user who uses such home right now. I mean, copying files that are being written to right now is kind of … unpredictable as far as results are concerned. But doing it correct way would probably require using LVM (snapshots), and LVM is one of those things that are either used from the start, or not used at all. Reco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150403093547.ga6...@d1696.int.rdtex.ru
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 10:35:49 Reco wrote: Hi. On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 10:01:43AM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 08:47:11 Reco wrote: I assume only by mounting a new drive at some temporary location, copying all the installed data from /home to it, then fixing fstab to mount that drive on top of the existing /home directory? I have done that in the past, but not in the last half decade as drives are outrageously big now. More-or-less yes. You forgot to mention emptying old home, but all needed stuff is there. I would say *instead of*, not *on top of*. And copying over is easy, when your new home is mounted via fstab. Clarification needed (see below): No, it isn't. mkdir /oldhome mnt oldhome /oldhome Is mnt an alias to 'mv'? Or 'mount -o bind'? Or something else? No, mnt is mnt $ man mnt cp -Rpu /oldhome/. /home/ Though you could, of course, do it in the other order, mounting oldhome as /home. But it would still be easy. I see at least one (minor) complication in such approach, and that is the user who uses such home right now. I mean, copying files that are being written to right now is kind of … unpredictable as far as results are concerned. For goodness sake! Of course you don't use your /home while you are copying it. As far as possible, anyway. There may be all sorts of theoretical problems, but this works. I have done it. Of course, if you are really worried you can use a live CD to do the copying. But doing it correct way would probably require using LVM (snapshots), and LVM is one of those things that are either used from the start, or not used at all. That is not what we were discussing. Read the thread. The idea is simply to add a separate /home after installation. There may be flaws in my approach, and I may indeed have forgotten something. But these aren't they. You are just trying to complicate something simple. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031143.31995.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 12:09:47 Reco wrote: On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 11:43:31AM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: Is mnt an alias to 'mv'? Or 'mount -o bind'? Or something else? No, mnt is mnt $ man mnt I've tried it before writing my last e-mail. And, there's a reason I asked. That reason is: $ man mnt No manual entry for mnt Ah! I stand corrected. Moreover, [1] finds only /usr/lib/noweb/mnt as the only canditate to that executable. And chances are - you talk about a *different* mnt. So, no arguing here, mnt is *definitely* mnt. But *what* is that mnt of yours? You are right and I am wrong. I meant, of course, mount. And man mount. And all the rest of it. But no aliases. Just a senior moment. Or two. Sorry. So substitute mount for mnt in what I said: mount oldhome /oldhome Lisi Lisi [1] https://packages.debian.org/search?searchon=contentskeywords=mntmode=path suite=stablearch=any Reco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031224.37567.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
Hi. On Thu, 2 Apr 2015 20:37:18 -0400 Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: On Thursday 02 April 2015 19:20:50 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Thursday 02 April 2015 22:35:29 Gene Heskett wrote: /home is just a directory on / here since the broken installer will not do it any other way. I know that it has been said before, but there may be people new to the list reading this. I used the same broken installer, and my /home is separate from /. Lisi I appreciate that you have done that Lisi, but this hybrid.iso from linuxcnc.org, downloadable from a link right one on the front page, and using the wheezy repos for updates, simply cannot be beaten into submission to do that. So, um, don't use this image, or something? The real debian installer lives here anyway: http://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/stable/main/installer-amd64/current/images/ Besides, nobody forbids you to create a separate filesystem for /home after the install. Reco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150403092252.dcc435948dbf0e93f519d...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 03:47:11 Reco wrote: Hi. On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 03:16:15 -0400 Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 02:22:52 Reco wrote: Hi. On Thu, 2 Apr 2015 20:37:18 -0400 Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: On Thursday 02 April 2015 19:20:50 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Thursday 02 April 2015 22:35:29 Gene Heskett wrote: /home is just a directory on / here since the broken installer will not do it any other way. I know that it has been said before, but there may be people new to the list reading this. I used the same broken installer, and my /home is separate from /. Lisi I appreciate that you have done that Lisi, but this hybrid.iso from linuxcnc.org, downloadable from a link right one on the front page, and using the wheezy repos for updates, simply cannot be beaten into submission to do that. So, um, don't use this image, or something? The real debian installer lives here anyway: That install media installs a special RTAI patched 2.6.32 kernel, patched to do close to microsecond accurate realtime control over lathes and milling machines and other such machining centers with as many as 9 axis's to control. Even stopping some of these machines in the event of an error can take several milliseconds, but must be done as quickly as possible, it might be a human getting chewed up. One over in Cincinnati even gets recorded on the uni's seizmograph when it does an emergency stop. The work table itself is 26 feet long and weighs IIRC 44,000 lbs. Heap big fellow IOW. My stuff is hobby sized less than 250 lbs, but the principles are the same. Precise control if you want the work to be done precisely. Don't blame Debian installer then. I suspect those RTAI guys didn't stop at replacing kernel ;) Not that they'll admit to. The RTAI guys only publish the patch, its difficult to apply get configured right, and when they do get one that works, its pinned. The LCNC guys are the ones doing the patching, and if Paola M. even knows were using his patches, we are just a murmer in the background. They've made quite a few attempts to make RTAI patches and PAE play well but PAE hasn't worked yet, it still sees and uses only 3G of the 8G in this machine. With all the stuff running here that is not running on one of the real machines out in the shop, its doomed to need a swapoff, swapon cycle a couple times a day. The atom based machines with 2G in them, have no such problems. They can run from power failure to power failure, very stable. http://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/stable/main/installer-amd64/cur rent /images/ I'll get that when the new drives arrive. Besides, nobody forbids you to create a separate filesystem for /home after the install. I assume only by mounting a new drive at some temporary location, copying all the installed data from /home to it, then fixing fstab to mount that drive on top of the existing /home directory? I have done that in the past, but not in the last half decade as drives are outrageously big now. More-or-less yes. You forgot to mention emptying old home, but all needed stuff is there. This also I think assumes the use of a LABEL=wheezyhome or some such non-confusing name. That's one way of doing this. You can also use UUID, plain-old device names (/dev/sdb1, or something), or /dev/disk/by-id if you want to be on the safe side. Device names are out on this machine as 3 of its drives are in a hot swap cage. The device name stays with the slot. So its best I just search the rack for the LABEL= when mounting stuff. But you mentioned cleaning out /home when mounting another partition over it, but I'd need a tutorial on how to do that since the .home dir, once the 2nd drive is mounted oin top of it, isn't accessible. FWIW, I've large boatload of stuff in /opt that I'd like to treat the same way. Same problem with /opt. But I figure I'd do that too as it sure would save days of copying stuff when upodateing an install. There is one other problem when putting in and running new kernels, true of any distro. Wheezy's X is so old that the improvements in the new kernels nouveau driver are not recognized by X, ditto pulse/alsa, that if I boot a 3.16.7 kernel, also installed here, the video and audio performance goes straight in the crapper. 1/4 second of each, half second frozen for the audio, may go frozen video for 20 seconds, then play catchup at 5000fps. A 30 second geico commercial in front of the news story takes 2+ minutes of wall time to play. I am on the X list, but questions about what I would have to pull in and build to get that compatibility back are totally ignored. So I haven't tried. Staying with an older kernel, of an age that somewhat matches the X seems to be the best alternative. Hence the 3.2.0-4amd64 currently running.
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Thu 02 Apr 2015 at 20:37:18 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: On Thursday 02 April 2015 19:20:50 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Thursday 02 April 2015 22:35:29 Gene Heskett wrote: /home is just a directory on / here since the broken installer will not do it any other way. I know that it has been said before, but there may be people new to the list reading this. I used the same broken installer, and my /home is separate from /. Lisi I appreciate that you have done that Lisi, but this hybrid.iso from linuxcnc.org, downloadable from a link right one on the front page, and using the wheezy repos for updates, simply cannot be beaten into submission to do that. It needs to be spoken to softly and caressed into submission. No one doubts your experience but everyone wonders how you have managed to turn a happy and co-operative installer into a martinet. Regardless of the mechinations I have tried, it plain and simply loops back to the partition drive screen if you do not just let it do what it wants to do, which is two real partitions, one for /, and one for swap at 2x the memory it finds in the machine. ANYTHING else you try to do and it loops back to restart the drive partitioning again. I even tried to prepartition the drive with other tools, but none of those settups Been there; done that. A text install with manual partitioning. /home and / on separate partitions were formatted and the install carried on to a successful conclusion. were recognized by the installers partitioner. This hybrid install iso, can also function when written to a usb key, but this now elderly Asus M2N-SLI Deluxe mobo's latest #1701 bios cannot be booted from usb. The installer manual has a paragraph or two on installing from a USB stick in such circumstances. It's not the only way. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150403122856.gg22...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 05:01:43 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 08:47:11 Reco wrote: I assume only by mounting a new drive at some temporary location, copying all the installed data from /home to it, then fixing fstab to mount that drive on top of the existing /home directory? I have done that in the past, but not in the last half decade as drives are outrageously big now. More-or-less yes. You forgot to mention emptying old home, but all needed stuff is there. I would say *instead of*, not *on top of*. And copying over is easy, when your new home is mounted via fstab. mkdir /oldhome mnt oldhome /oldhome cp -Rpu /oldhome/. /home/ Though you could, of course, do it in the other order, mounting oldhome as /home. But it would still be easy. Lisi When I get to that point, I may bug you for details. ;-) Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504030909.37970.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 10:52:06 David Wright wrote: Quoting Gene Heskett (ghesk...@wdtv.com): On Thursday 02 April 2015 19:20:50 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Thursday 02 April 2015 22:35:29 Gene Heskett wrote: /home is just a directory on / here since the broken installer will not do it any other way. I know that it has been said before, but there may be people new to the list reading this. I used the same broken installer, and my /home is separate from /. Lisi I appreciate that you have done that Lisi, but this hybrid.iso from linuxcnc.org, downloadable from a link right one on the front page, and using the wheezy repos for updates, simply cannot be beaten into submission to do that. Regardless of the mechinations I have tried, it plain and simply loops back to the partition drive screen if you do not just let it do what it wants to do, which is two real partitions, one for /, and one for swap at 2x the memory it finds in the machine. ANYTHING else you try to do and it loops back to restart the drive partitioning again. I even tried to prepartition the drive with other tools, but none of those settups were recognized by the installers partitioner. This hybrid install iso, can also function when written to a usb key, but this now elderly Asus M2N-SLI Deluxe mobo's latest #1701 bios cannot be booted from usb. WHAT? Are you telling us that the Broken Installer that was the subject of long discussions from 20th January to 9th February, the installer that you've been badmouthing on the slightest provocation ever since, is *not* the Debian installer? I knew it would degenerate to this. Back then I asked for howto's, got and printed several, all of which failed to produce the desired results, I assume because steps done were not all recorded. Not a different installer to my knowledge, the actions and end results match regardless. Since an installer isn't exactly a trivial thing, I would fully expect that since it uses wheezy repo's, the installer itself is also wheezy's. Other than the identical results obtained I can't prove it as neither iso has a normal file system, its all squashfs, and only the installer knows how to unpack it. I don't build squashfs support into any of the kernels I have built. Adequate disk space is far cheaper than the time wasted unpacking everytime I wanted to launch a browser/session of openoffice/whathaveyou. So please David, don't defend what I call a broken installer by saying it can be done, instead write the tutorial telling us how it can be done to do it the way we want it done. So prove it by making the howto public knowledge. Anything else is a waste of server bandwitdh. I want a separate /home PARTITION, and a separate /opt PARTITION. And I cannot understand why that is not possible with this installer. So prove me wrong, I'll be waiting right here, with apologies loaded. Cheers, David. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031131.02633.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: LVM/btrfs - Was: Re: firefox-37, where to put
Hi. On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 04:31:22PM +0200, Petter Adsen wrote: Resizing just works, as long as you don't forget the correct order for changing the filesystem and the volume. I.e. 1) Enlarge - volume first, filesystem last. 2) Reduce - filesystem first, volume last. I expect the combination of ext4 and LVM is so common that ext4 would be a good choice of filesystem if I ever get the need to resize? The *best* choice IMO. Others may tell you wonders about jfs2 or xfs, but for me ext4 (or its older predecessor) is the only filesystem that managed to survive several unplanned power outages in a row. Without damaging anything, which counts. The alternative to LVM would be btrfs, which would give me RAID1 and snapshots, plus subvolumes. I am familiar with mdadm, but I am *not* familiar with LVM or btrfs in any way. I'd stay clear of brtfs if I were you until jessie+1 (I forget whatever its called) enters freeze. Then you install backported kernel and *maybe* btrfs would be so kind and would not eat your data. That was what I was afraid of. Wait for the several years - btrfs will be OK. Ext4 didn't became a no-brainer choice immediately after it was implemented. There were bugs, complications even controverisies. But once (2.6.22 IIRC) the dust had settle - ext4 became the way to go, just as ext3 before it. What would the experts here recommend? I've been searching for a while now, but I haven't found anything recent that applies to both LVM and btrfs. I know btrfs is a moving target, is it stable enough to use for both it's RAID functionality and the rest? Or would I be better off with mdadm and LVM? Which is better to work with? You have mdadm. Add LVM on top of it. Make sure you have an non-LVM EFI partition in case of using UEFI (does not apply to BIOS). Don't forget to add busybox into initrd just in case. Enjoy. No EFI, just BIOS. Old machine. :) From what I understand, is it recommended to create a separate /boot that is not on LVM, or is that no longer the case? If you prefer using lilo or grub1 - such partition is mandatory. If you're using grub2 - such partition is merely a custom. Grub2 can boot the system from an LVM. Reco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150403145100.gk10...@d1696.int.rdtex.ru
Re: firefox-37, where to put
Quoting Gene Heskett (ghesk...@wdtv.com): On Thursday 02 April 2015 19:20:50 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Thursday 02 April 2015 22:35:29 Gene Heskett wrote: /home is just a directory on / here since the broken installer will not do it any other way. I know that it has been said before, but there may be people new to the list reading this. I used the same broken installer, and my /home is separate from /. Lisi I appreciate that you have done that Lisi, but this hybrid.iso from linuxcnc.org, downloadable from a link right one on the front page, and using the wheezy repos for updates, simply cannot be beaten into submission to do that. Regardless of the mechinations I have tried, it plain and simply loops back to the partition drive screen if you do not just let it do what it wants to do, which is two real partitions, one for /, and one for swap at 2x the memory it finds in the machine. ANYTHING else you try to do and it loops back to restart the drive partitioning again. I even tried to prepartition the drive with other tools, but none of those settups were recognized by the installers partitioner. This hybrid install iso, can also function when written to a usb key, but this now elderly Asus M2N-SLI Deluxe mobo's latest #1701 bios cannot be booted from usb. WHAT? Are you telling us that the Broken Installer that was the subject of long discussions from 20th January to 9th February, the installer that you've been badmouthing on the slightest provocation ever since, is *not* the Debian installer? Cheers, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150403145206.gc5...@alum.home
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 10:23:58 Brian wrote: [...] Here we go again... Why bother? The ISO from LinuxCNC installs within 15 minutes and will provide separate / and /home partitions and a swap partition of any chosen size. That's when done properly, of course. Compare that with the convolutions which are being planned and the time they will occupy. If its so darned easy, write us up a tutorial on how to do it properly, text mode so we can print it and follow along to make sure we don't wind up in partitioner hell when there is no network access to ask questions, where I have been about 10 times while trying to install the hybride.iso from that site. Ditto for my orginial attempts to install wheezy from the Debian site before I installed the hybride.iso. IIRC I made 3 tries with it, never did get it past the partitioner with anything more than / and swap defined. Yeah, thats my gauntlet laying there, pick it up and answer the challenge. Keystroke by keystroke starting with a powerup with the install disk in the optical drive. Or, go fix the installer, I don't care which, but empty brags like this do nothing to alleviate the headache that the broken installer with its inability to recognize any partition but / forces on us. I have personally tried evey disk partitioner tool we have trying to make a disk this POS installer would accept. So we fight with it, 2, 3 hours or more, and finally give up and let it use its defaults, getting a / and a swap. Go ahead Brian, I'll wait right here while you do that. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031101.05849.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Fri 03 Apr 2015 at 11:01:05 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: Go ahead Brian, I'll wait right here while you do that. It is only the partitioning which is giving a problem. 1. Choose 'Manual' on the 'Partition disks' page. 2. Choose a disk and hightlight 'FREE SPACE'. Press the ENTER key. 3. Create a new partition. ENTER. Specify size. ENTER. Choose 'Logical'. ENTER. 'Beginning' ENTER. 4. Highlight 'Mount point:'. ENTER. Highlight '/home'. ENTER. Choose 'Done setting up the partition'. ENTER. 5 We are now back at the page in 2. Repeat 2, 3 and 4 but choose / as the mount point. 6. Repeat 2 and 3. At 4 highlight 'Use as:' and choose 'swap area'. Then 'Done setting up the partition'. 7. 'Finish partitioning and write changes to disk' is the final step in partitioning on this page. But before doing it carry out step 8. Then ENTER and agree to write the changes to disk on the next page. 8. Switch to tty2 with ALT-F2 and do cp /var/log/syslog /var/log/syslog-part1 /var/log/syslog If there is any failure at step 7 (or before) you should have a record in syslog which can be viewed with 'more /var/log/syslog'. syslog-part1 will contain information on disk detection. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150403163247.gi22...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: firefox-37, where to put
Quoting Gene Heskett (ghesk...@wdtv.com): I knew it would degenerate to this. Back then I asked for howto's, got and printed several, all of which failed to produce the desired results, I assume because steps done were not all recorded. https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00153.html So please David, don't defend what I call a broken installer by saying it can be done, instead write the tutorial telling us how it can be done to do it the way we want it done. So prove it by making the howto public knowledge. Anything else is a waste of server bandwitdh. I keep notes of what I do where it varies from what's considered standard and documented. I'm not going to waste my time merging those notes with the installation manual. I want a separate /home PARTITION, and a separate /opt PARTITION. And I cannot understand why that is not possible with this installer. So prove me wrong, I'll be waiting right here, with apologies loaded. I used to put /usr on a separate partition and /var, /tmp and /home shared another. Now only /home. Here's how I remembered what to do: $ ls -l pc/configure/out-of-date/installation-bo -rw-r- 1 david david 11264 Sep 18 1998 pc/configure/out-of-date/installation-bo $ head -59 pc/configure/out-of-date/installation-bo Installation of Debian 1.3 (bo) on 1199469 (kilt). Switched IDE from secondary to primary, releasing IRQ 15. Booted to CMOS and set to boot from floppy. Booted DOS from boot floppy, inserted EtherDisk and ran PNPDSABL. This runs 3C5X9CFG /PNPRST 3C5X9CFG CONFIGURE /PNP:DISABLED Then ran 3c5x9cfg again and made sure IRQ was 15. Booted to W95 and named the partitions so I delete the right one. Booted with Debian 1.3.0 rescue disk: 1997-05-30/resc1440.bin 4June 05:10 Color Kbd UK Old partition scheme /dev/sdb 73heads 63sectors 1020cylinders cyl sectors MB /dev/sdb1 Primary Win95 FAT32 (0B) 1020 4690980 2290.52 I don't know why the geometry changed when I deleted the partition. Partition disk /dev/sdb 74heads 62sectors 1022cylinders cyl sectors MB /dev/sdb1 Primary Linux swap (82) 54 247752 120.98 /dev/sdb2 Boot Primary Linux (83) 14 64232 31.37 /dev/sdb3 Primary Linux 268 1229584 600.39 /dev/sdb4 Primary Linux 686 3147368 1536.81 which was, when empty,1022 4688936 2289.52 Write, quit. Initialise and activate swap /dev/sdb1 Scan, sure (if this has to be repeated at any stage, then I don't scan) Initialise linux partition /dev/sdb2 Scan, sure, / Initialise linux partition /dev/sdb3 Scan, sure, /usr (creates /target/usr). Initialise linux partition /dev/sdb4 Scan, sure, /kilt (creates /target/kilt). Switched to console 2, pressed return and typed: mkdir /target/kilt/var mkdir /target/kilt/tmp mkdir /target/kilt/home cd /target ln -s kilt/var var ln -s kilt/tmp tmp ln -s kilt/home home ^D and back to 1. Install Operating System Kernel and Modules Verify Filesystem Choice /dev/sdb1 /, 3 /usr, 4 /kilt, all ext2 (rw): yes Medium for installation /dev/fd0 Insert rescue disk (already there). Insert drivers disk. Configure Device Driver Modules: $ ... and another 300 lines of what seems like drivel now but was stuff I thought I might forget at the time. Nowadays, only /home is separate. Cheers, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150403173553.gb10...@alum.home
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On 04/03/2015 at 02:25 PM, Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 12:32:47 Brian wrote: 1. Choose 'Manual' on the 'Partition disks' page. 2. Choose a disk and hightlight 'FREE SPACE'. Press the ENTER key. 3. Create a new partition. ENTER. Specify size. ENTER. Choose 'Logical'. ENTER. 'Beginning' ENTER. 4. Highlight 'Mount point:'. ENTER. Highlight '/home'. ENTER. Choose 'Done setting up the partition'. ENTER. Humm, it just occured to me that I was defining a gig small change as /boot first, then /,then /home, then /opt, then the remainder as swap. No separate /var or /tmp? I thought it was best practice to keep those separate, so that logfiles and tmpfiles don't have the chance to fill up the root partition. Can I infer from this that all other partitions must be defined first and then the last defined partition s/b / and that is the only way it will work? That would put / on an extended partition, but IIRC I had that condition once before, several years back without any excitement. No, that is not required. I usually define / as the second or third out of 4-to-6 partitions, and it always works fine. I had always assumed that partitions s/b defined and reserved from the outside in. From the beginning of the disk, rather, which is presumably the outside but not necessarily. I generally define partitions in order from needs fastest access down, but that's a less relevant consideration nowadays than it used to be. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 13:26:32 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 17:41:05 Gene Heskett wrote: If that isn't broken, its a matter for you and me to argue about over a couple hand coolers, on me of course. :) No, it isn't broken. You have trouble with it. So you need help. I have no problem with that. But accept help. Answer questions. Or just irritate people. But what do you actually achieve by deliberately provoking them? Lisi Well, Brian just posted another step by step that may contain a clue as to what I was doing wrong. When the drives get here, and Jessie is sicced out the door in about 2.5 weeks, I will find out. Brian defined /home first, then /, and lastly swap, whereas I was defining /boot, /, /home, /opt and swap in that order. But I am not at all convinced that the first partition should not be /boot. If boot then winds up as a directory on /, and its 1.9 Tb into the drive from from cylinder 1, I'd have reservations about the bios's ability to find its boot files. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031449.46941.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 17:58:39 Gene Heskett wrote: The installer IS NOT BROKEN. And someone did give you step by step instructions, which you ignored. No, they were printed and followed to the letter, at least twice. Also ask you for step by step information on what you had done so that we could try to help. Which you ignored. Because I was following the instructions, I did not write down keystroke by keystroke. Youi could and should have kept notes on what didn't work and why to feed back. If my yelping incessantly about it has caused it to be improved, It won't have made any difference at all. All the yelping has done is annoy people. It has achieved nothing constructive. They have a proper report procedure for new installers. I'll give the obligatory 3 cheers and a tip of my 5 gallon hat. Even a 21 gun salute if the ammo shortage eases. And I thought that you said that you worried about your language because of the ladies present. What language, hell isn't a swear word, its a place. POS? Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031830.29735.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 12:32:47 Brian wrote: On Fri 03 Apr 2015 at 11:01:05 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: Go ahead Brian, I'll wait right here while you do that. It is only the partitioning which is giving a problem. 1. Choose 'Manual' on the 'Partition disks' page. Check 2. Choose a disk and hightlight 'FREE SPACE'. Press the ENTER key. Check, unless the disk is used, then you need to use whole disk 3. Create a new partition. ENTER. Specify size. ENTER. Choose 'Logical'. ENTER. 'Beginning' ENTER. Check 4. Highlight 'Mount point:'. ENTER. Highlight '/home'. ENTER. Choose 'Done setting up the partition'. ENTER. Check,,, 5 We are now back at the page in 2. Repeat 2, 3 and 4 but choose / as the mount point. Check, for /opt 6. Repeat 2 and 3. At 4 highlight 'Use as:' and choose 'swap area'. Then 'Done setting up the partition'. Check, 17 gigabytes worth. 7. 'Finish partitioning and write changes to disk' is the final step in partitioning on this page. But before doing it carry out step 8. I wasn't doing that step 8. Then ENTER and agree to write the changes to disk on the next page. And this is where it looped back. 100% of the time, and apparently not writing to the disk the partition table so composed. So you highlight the disk by its sda designation and restart, never getting a successfuil step 7. 8. Switch to tty2 with ALT-F2 and do cp /var/log/syslog /var/log/syslog-part1 /var/log/syslog If there is any failure at step 7 (or before) you should have a record in syslog which can be viewed with 'more /var/log/syslog'. syslog-part1 will contain information on disk detection. Thank you Brian. This log I assume is readable from tty2? I don't recall it was available that early in the install previously, so I hadn't even tried. Printed FFR. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031352.02937.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 01:39:46PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 12:25:01 Chris Bannister wrote: Is there a local Linux User Group in your area? You could mention this, and I bet there would be someone who would be keen to see what the trouble is, i.e. sort it out in a hand holding manner or confirm that there is some peculiarity with what you are trying to achieve. I have a friend up the interstate about 10 miles running it, but he is still running Fedora 6 the last time I checked on his main machine, and one of the planetccrm setups on a couple more rigs as he also has a for hire music production studio. He doesn't fix what isn't broken. OK, but he *might* be interested in this particular problem you're having and you could maybe look at over a couple of cold ones or a steer on spit one weekend, *wink* *wink*, know what I mean. Of course, you are going to have to set up an install ready to say, Oh while you're here, you wouldn't know what might be the trouble with this ... and volia, before you know it you've got his inquisitive nature overtaking him. :) But, there are usually Linux User Groups in most areas. -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150403183004.GA31598@tal
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 17:41:05 Gene Heskett wrote: If that isn't broken, its a matter for you and me to argue about over a couple hand coolers, on me of course. :) No, it isn't broken. You have trouble with it. So you need help. I have no problem with that. But accept help. Answer questions. Or just irritate people. But what do you actually achieve by deliberately provoking them? Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031826.32346.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 15:35:37 Gene Heskett wrote: It's not quite this simple if /home isn't a separate partition to begin with, but is just a directory under the root partition, which I believe Gene stated is the case he's dealing with. That is correct, the installers partitioner would not allow it any other way. Please, Gene. *Must* you deliberately provoke with every mail? Why not just use non contentious language and upset no-one. Not even yourself. You know what they say about sleeping dogs - and cobras? ;-) Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031703.37027.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 16:01:05 Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 10:23:58 Brian wrote: [...] Here we go again... Why bother? The ISO from LinuxCNC installs within 15 minutes and will provide separate / and /home partitions and a swap partition of any chosen size. That's when done properly, of course. Compare that with the convolutions which are being planned and the time they will occupy. If its so darned easy, write us up a tutorial on how to do it properly, text mode so we can print it and follow along to make sure we don't wind up in partitioner hell when there is no network access to ask questions, where I have been about 10 times while trying to install the hybride.iso from that site. Ditto for my orginial attempts to install wheezy from the Debian site before I installed the hybride.iso. IIRC I made 3 tries with it, never did get it past the partitioner with anything more than / and swap defined. Yeah, thats my gauntlet laying there, pick it up and answer the challenge. Keystroke by keystroke starting with a powerup with the install disk in the optical drive. Or, go fix the installer, I don't care which, but empty brags like this do nothing to alleviate the headache that the broken installer with its inability to recognize any partition but / forces on us. I have personally tried evey disk partitioner tool we have trying to make a disk this POS installer would accept. So we fight with it, 2, 3 hours or more, and finally give up and let it use its defaults, getting a / and a swap. Go ahead Brian, I'll wait right here while you do that. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene The installer IS NOT BROKEN. And someone did give you step by step instructions, which you ignored. Also ask you for step by step information on what you had done so that we could try to help. Which you ignored. YOU couldn't use it correctly. That is for sure. BUT THE INSTALLER IS NOT BROKEN. Anyway, it is soon to be laid to rest. Perhaps you'll like the Jessie installer better. And I thought that you said that you worried about your language because of the ladies present. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031716.33062.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 01:28:56PM +0100, Brian wrote: On Thu 02 Apr 2015 at 20:37:18 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: On Thursday 02 April 2015 19:20:50 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Thursday 02 April 2015 22:35:29 Gene Heskett wrote: /home is just a directory on / here since the broken installer will not do it any other way. I know that it has been said before, but there may be people new to the list reading this. I used the same broken installer, and my /home is separate from /. Lisi I appreciate that you have done that Lisi, but this hybrid.iso from linuxcnc.org, downloadable from a link right one on the front page, and using the wheezy repos for updates, simply cannot be beaten into submission to do that. It needs to be spoken to softly and caressed into submission. No one doubts your experience but everyone wonders how you have managed to turn a happy and co-operative installer into a martinet. I vaguely recall fighting with the partitioning stage at one point in the past but I think the 7.7 netinst I tried recently was much improved. There might be one particular step which is tripping Gene up, and once the oh! duh! slaps forehead moment passes, he'll be right. Is there a local Linux User Group in your area? You could mention this, and I bet there would be someone who would be keen to see what the trouble is, i.e. sort it out in a hand holding manner or confirm that there is some peculiarity with what you are trying to achieve. -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150403162500.GA29781@tal
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Fri 03 Apr 2015 at 13:52:02 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 12:32:47 Brian wrote: On Fri 03 Apr 2015 at 11:01:05 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: Go ahead Brian, I'll wait right here while you do that. It is only the partitioning which is giving a problem. 1. Choose 'Manual' on the 'Partition disks' page. Check Ok 2. Choose a disk and hightlight 'FREE SPACE'. Press the ENTER key. Check, unless the disk is used, then you need to use whole disk Either there is FREE SPACE or there isn't. If there is none you cannot install anything to that disk. What did you get? You didn't say, so now we are left wondering how you dealt with that situation. If it were me and there was no free space, I would delete that partition and go from there. 3. Create a new partition. ENTER. Specify size. ENTER. Choose 'Logical'. ENTER. 'Beginning' ENTER. Check Ok. 4. Highlight 'Mount point:'. ENTER. Highlight '/home'. ENTER. Choose 'Done setting up the partition'. ENTER. Check,,, Ok. 5 We are now back at the page in 2. Repeat 2, 3 and 4 but choose / as the mount point. Check, for /opt It should not make any difference but you have now decided to deviate from the instructions. We are now not in step. 6. Repeat 2 and 3. At 4 highlight 'Use as:' and choose 'swap area'. Then 'Done setting up the partition'. Check, 17 gigabytes worth. I do not quite understand that. Did you specify 17 G of swap? Why a prime number? :) 7. 'Finish partitioning and write changes to disk' is the final step in partitioning on this page. But before doing it carry out step 8. I wasn't doing that step 8. You **must** do it. It is obligatory. Then ENTER and agree to write the changes to disk on the next page. And this is where it looped back. 100% of the time, and apparently not writing to the disk the partition table so composed. So you highlight the disk by its sda designation and restart, never getting a successfuil step 7. Something before step 7 is surely the cause. You have the syslog; we don't. Free space was there on the disk, wasn't it? 8. Switch to tty2 with ALT-F2 and do cp /var/log/syslog /var/log/syslog-part1 /var/log/syslog If there is any failure at step 7 (or before) you should have a record in syslog which can be viewed with 'more /var/log/syslog'. syslog-part1 will contain information on disk detection. Thank you Brian. This log I assume is readable from tty2? I don't recall it was available that early in the install previously, so I hadn't even tried. Of course it is readable; I gave you the command to do it. syslog is available throughout the install. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150403185004.gj22...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 12:25:01 Chris Bannister wrote: [...] I know that it has been said before, but there may be people new to the list reading this. I used the same broken installer, and my /home is separate from /. Lisi I appreciate that you have done that Lisi, but this hybrid.iso from linuxcnc.org, downloadable from a link right one on the front page, and using the wheezy repos for updates, simply cannot be beaten into submission to do that. It needs to be spoken to softly and caressed into submission. No one doubts your experience but everyone wonders how you have managed to turn a happy and co-operative installer into a martinet. I vaguely recall fighting with the partitioning stage at one point in the past but I think the 7.7 netinst I tried recently was much improved. There might be one particular step which is tripping Gene up, and once the oh! duh! slaps forehead moment passes, he'll be right. I would welcome that moment. Is there a local Linux User Group in your area? You could mention this, and I bet there would be someone who would be keen to see what the trouble is, i.e. sort it out in a hand holding manner or confirm that there is some peculiarity with what you are trying to achieve. I have a friend up the interstate about 10 miles running it, but he is still running Fedora 6 the last time I checked on his main machine, and one of the planetccrm setups on a couple more rigs as he also has a for hire music production studio. He doesn't fix what isn't broken. And we use a dozen or more linux installs at the tv station, generally an older Centos 5.5 or 5.6 IIRC. Jim is like Karl, he doesn't fix whats not broken, but he does patch for hacks quite religiously. And he is resourcefull in that when we went digital in 2008, we bought 4 of the recommended rack mount Apple video servers for our video recording and playback, one per channel. All of which had been replaced 6 years ago now by centos servers that are 3-5x more capable than the Apple stuff, none of which lasted for more than a year before being destroyed by an internal fire at $5995 each. We learned to keep several fire extinguishers handy around them. And Jim built all the Centos servers from boxes of parts and rack mount cages with 20x the cooling the apples had. One little 1.625 fan failing anyplace in one of the apples = internal fire essentially down for the count, non-repairable. Warranty or not, apple wouldn't touch them after the first one. So his Centos (and he is fluent in windows too) knowledge isn't terribly applicable here. I wish it was. Part of the Centos speed comes from a 2nd local 10 gigabit network just for Operations Control, where the apples were gigabit only. It is not bridged to the outside. And I am hearing rumors of that being replaced by fiber if and when fiber routers at 100Gb or more become affordable. Affordable has not been $defined in front of me though. :) Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031339.46716.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 12:16:33 Lisi Reisz wrote: [...] The installer IS NOT BROKEN. And someone did give you step by step instructions, which you ignored. No, they were printed and followed to the letter, at least twice. Also ask you for step by step information on what you had done so that we could try to help. Which you ignored. Because I was following the instructions, I did not write down keystroke by keystroke. Anything I would recall later would probably be incomplete and out of order. And thats even worse because its miss-leading everyone. Possibly, very probably even me. YOU couldn't use it correctly. That is for sure. BUT THE INSTALLER IS NOT BROKEN. Anyway, it is soon to be laid to rest. Perhaps you'll like the Jessie installer better. If my yelping incessantly about it has caused it to be improved, I'll give the obligatory 3 cheers and a tip of my 5 gallon hat. Even a 21 gun salute if the ammo shortage eases. And I thought that you said that you worried about your language because of the ladies present. What language, hell isn't a swear word, its a place. At least according to the Praise the Lord but send Me the money crowd. ;-) Cheers Lisi, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031258.39831.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On 04/03/2015 at 10:35 AM, Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 09:36:33 The Wanderer wrote: On 04/03/2015 at 09:25 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote: /home is a mount point, not a partition. You don't mount anything over it, you mount something on it. So you mount your new home partition on the /home mount point. You then mount your old home partition on another mount point and copy the data from it to your new home partition. It's not quite this simple if /home isn't a separate partition to begin with, but is just a directory under the root partition, which I believe Gene stated is the case he's dealing with. It can still be done, with the slightly different set of steps Reco described (mount new elsewhere, move existing into new, unmount new from elsewhere, mount new to /home and modify fstab) - but being sure you're doing it cleanly requires either making _certain_ no one other than root is logged in Thats easy, I'm it. :) Not necessarily as easy as you might think. You'd need to be careful to make sure that nothing got autostarted (or left running on logout) which would try to access files under /home/*/ - and though I don't know of anything offhand which would necessarily do that, I wouldn't want to assume that nothing would. during the move process or using a LiveCD (to make sure that, effectively, no user on the affected system is logged in _at all_ during that process). Is booting with the single option on the kernels command line insufficient for this scenario? That (single-user mode) _should_ be sufficient, but if I were doing it myself I'd still take the extra steps to verify, just in case. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 12:03:37 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 15:35:37 Gene Heskett wrote: It's not quite this simple if /home isn't a separate partition to begin with, but is just a directory under the root partition, which I believe Gene stated is the case he's dealing with. That is correct, the installers partitioner would not allow it any other way. Please, Gene. *Must* you deliberately provoke with every mail? Why not just use non contentious language and upset no-one. Not even yourself. You know what they say about sleeping dogs - and cobras? ;-) Lisi I'm sorry you take it that way Lisi, but I have beat my head against this seemingly impervious wall for 10+ install attempts without getting past it. At this point, its obvious the only way toward progress is to provoke all the protectors of this difficult if not impossible to use installer by challenging them to actually write a tutorial that works for a 1 partition setup. Several were offered and printed and followed at one point or another back when this thread drew its first breath, none got me out of the partitioner imposed jail. Davids last post is quite helpful, but its in the form of an after the fact workaround. We need a printable tut/proceedure so it can be consulted during the install when no network is available, one that gets us the results we need DURING the install. Then everyone could benefit from that. In the winter of 97-98, when I installed RedHat 5.0 the first time with a k6-II at the them unherard of 400 Mhz clocking, 320 megs of dram, on a 30Gb IDE hard drive, I could partition the disk any way I wanted except moving /etc off /, and it Just Worked(TM). The present situation is to me, a huge regression. If that isn't broken, its a matter for you and me to argue about over a couple hand coolers, on me of course. :) Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031241.05090.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 12:32:47 Brian wrote: On Fri 03 Apr 2015 at 11:01:05 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: Go ahead Brian, I'll wait right here while you do that. It is only the partitioning which is giving a problem. Re-reading this again... 1. Choose 'Manual' on the 'Partition disks' page. 2. Choose a disk and hightlight 'FREE SPACE'. Press the ENTER key. 3. Create a new partition. ENTER. Specify size. ENTER. Choose 'Logical'. ENTER. 'Beginning' ENTER. 4. Highlight 'Mount point:'. ENTER. Highlight '/home'. ENTER. Choose 'Done setting up the partition'. ENTER. Humm, it just occured to me that I was defining a gig small change as /boot first, then /,then /home, then /opt, then the remainder as swap. Can I infer from this that all other partitions must be defined first and then the last defined partition s/b / and that is the only way it will work? That would put / on an extended partition, but IIRC I had that condition once before, several years back without any excitement. I had always assumed that partitions s/b defined and reserved from the outside in. 5 We are now back at the page in 2. Repeat 2, 3 and 4 but choose / as the mount point. 6. Repeat 2 and 3. At 4 highlight 'Use as:' and choose 'swap area'. Then 'Done setting up the partition'. 7. 'Finish partitioning and write changes to disk' is the final step in partitioning on this page. But before doing it carry out step 8. Then ENTER and agree to write the changes to disk on the next page. I should also relate that at this step, when it looped, it had erased the original partition table of a previously used disk, so it did write to the drive enough to clear the old table, but had not written a new one. Verified by bailing out and rebooting to a recent gparted cd, and finding the existing partition table had indeed been wiped. 8. Switch to tty2 with ALT-F2 and do cp /var/log/syslog /var/log/syslog-part1 /var/log/syslog If there is any failure at step 7 (or before) you should have a record in syslog which can be viewed with 'more /var/log/syslog'. syslog-part1 will contain information on disk detection. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031425.55886.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 15:31:38 Gene Heskett wrote: And don't forget, that when the cp is done, to look at it with an ls -l to make sure I still own my stuff. That is the point of the p in -Rpu. It preserves permissions. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031701.18991.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 16:53:53 Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 11:38:02 David Wright wrote: Quoting The Wanderer (wande...@fastmail.fm): On 04/03/2015 at 09:25 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 14:03:38 Gene Heskett wrote: But you mentioned cleaning out /home when mounting another partition over it, but I'd need a tutorial on how to do that since the .home dir, once the 2nd drive is mounted oin top of it, isn't accessible. FWIW, Quite right. If you mount a partition over a directory with files in it, then those files are (a) inaccessible while the mount is there and (b) taking up space (in / in your case). /home is a mount point, not a partition. You don't mount anything over it, you mount something on it. So you mount your new home partition on the /home mount point. You then mount your old home partition on another mount point and copy the data from it to your new home partition. It's not quite this simple if /home isn't a separate partition to begin with, but is just a directory under the root partition, which I believe Gene stated is the case he's dealing with. It can still be done, with the slightly different set of steps Reco described (mount new elsewhere, move existing into new, unmount new from elsewhere, mount new to /home and modify fstab) I would do it slightly differently. There's no virtue in using the original /home directory as the mount point for the new home partition. Boot into single Mount new partition fred on /mnt (which is what it's for) Copy the files. (I use find | cpio -damp myself, which is capable of cloning a running root filesystem) Rename /home to /oldhome (or whatever) mkdir /home unmount fred from /mnt and mount it on /home Add fred to fstab Back to normal runlevel Archive/compare/check/prune/remove /oldhome at leisure. fred stands for whatever name you know the new partition by, be it kernel device, LABEL, UUID or whatever. Please don't actually call it wheezyhome, though. That's doubly overloaded. This makes far more sense for an after the fact setup. Agreed - where everything is in one partition. Thanks from me too, David. Lisi Thanks David. Cheers, David. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031708.55151.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 12:01:18 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 15:31:38 Gene Heskett wrote: And don't forget, that when the cp is done, to look at it with an ls -l to make sure I still own my stuff. That is the point of the p in -Rpu. It preserves permissions. I'll plead to not having read that man page this side of 1997 or 98. My bad thanks Lisi. Lisi Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031210.15846.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 13:30:29 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 17:58:39 Gene Heskett wrote: The installer IS NOT BROKEN. And someone did give you step by step instructions, which you ignored. No, they were printed and followed to the letter, at least twice. Also ask you for step by step information on what you had done so that we could try to help. Which you ignored. Because I was following the instructions, I did not write down keystroke by keystroke. Youi could and should have kept notes on what didn't work and why to feed back. If my yelping incessantly about it has caused it to be improved, It won't have made any difference at all. All the yelping has done is annoy people. It has achieved nothing constructive. They have a proper report procedure for new installers. I'll give the obligatory 3 cheers and a tip of my 5 gallon hat. Even a 21 gun salute if the ammo shortage eases. And I thought that you said that you worried about your language because of the ladies present. What language, hell isn't a swear word, its a place. POS? Point of sale? Doesn't grok. :) Lisi Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031451.45694.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 16:31:02 Gene Heskett wrote: And I cannot understand why that is not possible with this installer. It is. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031718.35235.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 14:30:05 Chris Bannister wrote: On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 01:39:46PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 12:25:01 Chris Bannister wrote: Is there a local Linux User Group in your area? You could mention this, and I bet there would be someone who would be keen to see what the trouble is, i.e. sort it out in a hand holding manner or confirm that there is some peculiarity with what you are trying to achieve. I have a friend up the interstate about 10 miles running it, but he is still running Fedora 6 the last time I checked on his main machine, and one of the planetccrm setups on a couple more rigs as he also has a for hire music production studio. He doesn't fix what isn't broken. OK, but he *might* be interested in this particular problem you're having and you could maybe look at over a couple of cold ones or a steer on spit one weekend, *wink* *wink*, know what I mean. Of course, you are going to have to set up an install ready to say, Oh while you're here, you wouldn't know what might be the trouble with this ... and volia, before you know it you've got his inquisitive nature overtaking him. :) Gotta get him to come, he is part of the states Libertarian party crew, and is generally committed to somewhere else when he has the time separate from a friday night jam session of mostly hard rock with 6 or so guys picking and grinning in his little studio. Occasionally they'll get one good enough to start the ADAT's redo one or 2 songs. But, there are usually Linux User Groups in most areas. Yeah, but this IS West Virginia, and 100 miles out in the boonies from star city, aka Charleston. In this county seat town of about 7,000, there are likely 100 linux machines running, but maybe 5 people who actually know the ncurses screen they are ringing up the groceries on while you are unloading the cart onto the belt is actually running linux. They don't know, don't care, as long as it works. No clue what that teeny little penguin in one corner of the screen means. When you try to educate them by pointing it out, and that its free, you get a dumb look and a what version of windows is that?. Sigh. The local school board will not allow anything but windows (it has support is their defense) on the premises, so the kids that ought to be exposed to it are instead insulated from it. Needless to say this upsets me no end because of the loss of potential coding talent to the area in general. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031535.18142.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 16:37:51 Brian wrote: On Fri 03 Apr 2015 at 15:37:07 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 14:50:04 Brian wrote: Either there is FREE SPACE or there isn't. If there is none you cannot install anything to that disk. What did you get? You didn't say, so now we are left wondering how you dealt with that situation. Since when did disks become one time use devices? None that I have are. If its already full, you just tell the partitioner to use it all, problem solved. If it were me and there was no free space, I would delete that partition and go from there. Isn't use whole disk the equ? I do not understand 'equ' Sorry Brian, that is generally shorthand for equivalent, aka the same thing. IOW nothing precious on this disk, over write whats already there. You didn't answer the What did you get? question in my previous mail quoted above. On the 'Partition disks' page there is a list of the disks on your system. SCSI1 etc. What does it say for 'FREE SPACE' in the fourth column for the disk you are installing to? Usually less than 4 megabytes of free space left at the end of the disk with a used 4k per sector disk on the cable, but could be zero for a 512 byte per sector used disk since there is not normally an alignment problem with the old 512 byte per sector formatting. I have 1Tb disks that look alike at first glance. The 512 byte per sector pair is heavier and a wee bit thicker because it likely has two platters in it, while the 4k version pair is a bit lighter and thinner, I presume because there is only one platter in those two disks. The commodity drives I have coming will be, at 2Tb, 4096 bytes per sector, and linux must align its writes with a Read-Modify-Write cycle updating the whole 4k just to change one byte if things don't start on a sector boundary. There's a pretty good speed penalty for doing that. A disk that can write at 120+ megs a second when aligned can be turned into a 20 megs a second slowpoke. if miss-aligned. Ain't technology wonderful when it advances faster than ones legs can walk? Before you know it, it will be Sir Arther C. Clarks definition of magic. ;-) Thanks Brian. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031739.32319.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 16:42:56 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 20:41:38 Gene Heskett wrote: but this now leaves me wondering just what it was that I did wrong, at least 10 times in a row with 2 different wheezy install images. Now that is progress. If you really want another go we could perhaps get somewhere from there. Lisi We will indeed Lisi, when the new disks get here. I am currently out of play stocks. Middle or late next week time frame. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031742.00985.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 20:41:38 Gene Heskett wrote: but this now leaves me wondering just what it was that I did wrong, at least 10 times in a row with 2 different wheezy install images. Now that is progress. If you really want another go we could perhaps get somewhere from there. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504032142.56739.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 22:39:32 Gene Heskett wrote: Sorry Brian, that is ***generally*** shorthand for equivalent (my stars) No - it is another Gene special. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504032309.38854.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Fri 03 Apr 2015 at 15:37:07 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 14:50:04 Brian wrote: Either there is FREE SPACE or there isn't. If there is none you cannot install anything to that disk. What did you get? You didn't say, so now we are left wondering how you dealt with that situation. If it were me and there was no free space, I would delete that partition and go from there. Isn't use whole disk the equ? I do not understand 'equ'. You didn't answer the What did you get? question in my previous mail quoted above. On the 'Partition disks' page there is a list of the disks on your system. SCSI1 etc. What does it say for 'FREE SPACE' in the fourth column for the disk you are installing to? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/03042015212703.affec07c5...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On 04/03/2015 at 05:39 PM, Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 16:37:51 Brian wrote: On Fri 03 Apr 2015 at 15:37:07 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 14:50:04 Brian wrote: If it were me and there was no free space, I would delete that partition and go from there. Isn't use whole disk the equ? I do not understand 'equ' Sorry Brian, that is generally shorthand for equivalent, aka the same thing. IOW nothing precious on this disk, over write whats already there. No, it's not equivalent. If you tell the installer to Use whole disk, it will - unless I'm very much mistaken - create _one_ partition, the size of the entire disk, and install into that. If you want to have multiple partitions, and you don't have free space to create them in, then - as Brian said - you need to specify which existing partitions to delete, and then create the needed partitions (or let let the installer create them) in the newly-available free space. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 19:51:45 Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 13:30:29 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 17:58:39 Gene Heskett wrote: The installer IS NOT BROKEN. And someone did give you step by step instructions, which you ignored. No, they were printed and followed to the letter, at least twice. Also ask you for step by step information on what you had done so that we could try to help. Which you ignored. Because I was following the instructions, I did not write down keystroke by keystroke. Youi could and should have kept notes on what didn't work and why to feed back. If my yelping incessantly about it has caused it to be improved, It won't have made any difference at all. All the yelping has done is annoy people. It has achieved nothing constructive. They have a proper report procedure for new installers. I'll give the obligatory 3 cheers and a tip of my 5 gallon hat. Even a 21 gun salute if the ammo shortage eases. And I thought that you said that you worried about your language because of the ladies present. What language, hell isn't a swear word, its a place. POS? Point of sale? Doesn't grok. :) OK. I misunderstood it. Sorry. But I often have difficulty with your text. Perahps stick to clear English? Lisi Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504032014.51044.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 15:19:26 Brian wrote: On Fri 03 Apr 2015 at 14:49:46 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 13:26:32 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 17:41:05 Gene Heskett wrote: If that isn't broken, its a matter for you and me to argue about over a couple hand coolers, on me of course. :) No, it isn't broken. You have trouble with it. So you need help. I have no problem with that. But accept help. Answer questions. Or just irritate people. But what do you actually achieve by deliberately provoking them? Lisi Well, Brian just posted another step by step that may contain a clue as to what I was doing wrong. When the drives get here, and Jessie is sicced out the door in about 2.5 weeks, I will find out. Brian defined /home first, then /, and lastly swap, That was only to ensure we were doing exactly the same thing. The order doesn't matter. That was something I latched onto, but this now leaves me wondering just what it was that I did wrong, at least 10 times in a row with 2 different wheezy install images. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031541.38372.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Friday 03 April 2015 15:14:51 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 19:51:45 Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 13:30:29 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 17:58:39 Gene Heskett wrote: The installer IS NOT BROKEN. And someone did give you step by step instructions, which you ignored. No, they were printed and followed to the letter, at least twice. Also ask you for step by step information on what you had done so that we could try to help. Which you ignored. Because I was following the instructions, I did not write down keystroke by keystroke. Youi could and should have kept notes on what didn't work and why to feed back. If my yelping incessantly about it has caused it to be improved, It won't have made any difference at all. All the yelping has done is annoy people. It has achieved nothing constructive. They have a proper report procedure for new installers. I'll give the obligatory 3 cheers and a tip of my 5 gallon hat. Even a 21 gun salute if the ammo shortage eases. And I thought that you said that you worried about your language because of the ladies present. What language, hell isn't a swear word, its a place. POS? Point of sale? Doesn't grok. :) OK. I misunderstood it. Sorry. But I often have difficulty with your text. Perahps stick to clear English? Well, it does have another connotation, but we all know that one by heart. :) Lisi Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201504031539.23355.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Fri 03 Apr 2015 at 17:39:32 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 16:37:51 Brian wrote: On Fri 03 Apr 2015 at 15:37:07 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 14:50:04 Brian wrote: Either there is FREE SPACE or there isn't. If there is none you cannot install anything to that disk. What did you get? You didn't say, so now we are left wondering how you dealt with that situation. [Snip] On the 'Partition disks' page there is a list of the disks on your system. SCSI1 etc. What does it say for 'FREE SPACE' in the fourth column for the disk you are installing to? Usually less than 4 megabytes of free space left at the end of the disk with a used 4k per sector disk on the cable, but could be zero for a 512 byte per sector used disk since there is not normally an alignment Your turn now for some gauntlet picking up and a keystroke by keystroke account. :) There is no significant space available on the disk to install to. The only way to get an OS on it is to use the existing partition(s). Please detail what you see on the screen when the 'Partition disks' page comes up. Now describe how you go about getting a / and /home partition (swap is of no importance here). A framework which might help you in an adequate description was posted earlier. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/03042015232612.5232d32cc...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On Fri 03 Apr 2015 at 14:49:46 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 13:26:32 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 03 April 2015 17:41:05 Gene Heskett wrote: If that isn't broken, its a matter for you and me to argue about over a couple hand coolers, on me of course. :) No, it isn't broken. You have trouble with it. So you need help. I have no problem with that. But accept help. Answer questions. Or just irritate people. But what do you actually achieve by deliberately provoking them? Lisi Well, Brian just posted another step by step that may contain a clue as to what I was doing wrong. When the drives get here, and Jessie is sicced out the door in about 2.5 weeks, I will find out. Brian defined /home first, then /, and lastly swap, That was only to ensure we were doing exactly the same thing. The order doesn't matter. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/03042015201349.64ae89d06...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: LVM/btrfs - Was: Re: firefox-37, where to put
Reco wrote: Petter Adsen wrote: Resizing just works, as long as you don't forget the correct order for changing the filesystem and the volume. I.e. 1) Enlarge - volume first, filesystem last. 2) Reduce - filesystem first, volume last. I am compelled to note that resizing for increasing works great. But resizing for shrinking is very, very, very slow. Shrinking isn't a very well used path. It works. If you have ten days to let it complete with out power failure. Avoid every shrinking a file system. If you must shrink it is much better to backup, create new of smaller size, restore from backup. I expect the combination of ext4 and LVM is so common that ext4 would be a good choice of filesystem if I ever get the need to resize? I pretty much agreed with everything Reco said. I set up my own machines with mdadm RAID1. On top of that is LVM. On top of that is ext4. I always use a separate /boot on mdadm RAID1 without LVM using ext2 simply to avoid the wasted space of a journal on that file system. I RAID1 everything including swap. This may not be an exciting combination but the combination works reliably. You mention wanting to use snapshots so I must suggest spending some time researching blog articles on lvm snapshots. I have heard of issues concerning race conditions in the code path leading to corruption. I have heard some bad things about LVM at that intersection. Sorry I can't recall specifics but it had to do with continuous build systems that were exercising the path all of the time and tripping over problems with it. I wish I had a URL to reference. I would be very happy if someone countered this with information saying the opposite. Bob signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: firefox-37, where to put
Gene Heskett wrote: Brian wrote: Gene Heskett wrote: Brian wrote: Either there is FREE SPACE or there isn't. If there is none you cannot install anything to that disk. What did you get? You didn't say, so now we are left wondering how you dealt with that situation. Since when did disks become one time use devices? None that I have are. If its already full, you just tell the partitioner to use it all, problem solved. **That is the problem!** If you tell the installer to use the entire disk and to set it up in a standard configuration then it will not create a /home for you since that is not the default configuration. But it is doing this because *YOU* have told it to do this. If you want a /home then delete all of the partitions and *create your own*. As a pilot I have this to say. Fly the airplane. Don't let the airplane fly you. If it were me and there was no free space, I would delete that partition and go from there. Isn't use whole disk the equ? I do not understand 'equ' Sorry Brian, that is generally shorthand for equivalent, aka the same thing. IOW nothing precious on this disk, over write whats already there. I didn't understand the equ shorthand either. Let's put this another way. It is election time in my town. I am voting by mail today. I have a ballot. I research the choices and make all of my own decisions and vote each of the items. All good. That is not equivalent to me handing my ballot to someone else and telling them to vote the entire ballot as they want. When you tell the installer to use the entire disk and partition it as it has been preprogrammed to do that is what you are doing. You are giving up your decisions and handing them off to another. Bob signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: firefox-37, where to put
On 04/03/2015 at 06:32 PM, The Wanderer wrote: If you want to have multiple partitions, and you don't have free space to create them in, then - as Brian said - you need to specify which existing partitions to delete, and then create the needed partitions (or let let the installer create them) in the newly-available free space. Correction: Bob. I was in a bit too much of a hurry, and only saw a B name. My apologies. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
