Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
"0...@caiway.net" writes: > On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 16:40:52 +0100 > Alberto Luaces wrote: > >> "0...@caiway.net" writes: >> >> > But I do like systemd-container very much. >> >> What is that thing? Another name for systemd-nspawn? >> > > package systemd-container provides systemd's tools for nspawn and > container/VM management: > * systemd-nspawn > * systemd-machined and machinectl > * systemd-importd Thanks for the pointer! -- Alberto
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
On 12/15/19 11:45 PM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: Quoting Jimmy Johnson (2019-12-16 02:13:08) On 12/14/19 5:29 AM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: Hi Alessandro, Quoting Alessandro Vesely (2019-12-14 13:23:14) On Sat 14/Dec/2019 03:18:39 +0100 Kenneth Parker wrote: I use Devuan, especially on older hardware. Works well. Good to know. For the time being, I see SysV is working. I'm on old-stable Debian. As, in a few months, it will be time to migrate, I'll have to decide on Devuan (current) vs. Buster. Any recommendation on that? Will the voted resolution shred any light on migration strategies? Since this is a Debian list, I recommend to discuss Debian here, and consult Devuan mailinglist for details of what they can offer. The vote currently in Debian will affect _future_ releases of Debian, not the current stable release, Buster. For Debian Buster (regardless of the outcome of the vote) SysV is a supported init system: Please do report any flaws you may encounter! Kde5 on buster without systemd don't work, True, and also what I wrote (and even mentioned KDE explicitly): Depends on which kind of system you need and how much of systemd must be gone. In case you missed, here it is again: Beware in discussions here and elsewhere to distinguish between these: a) running a system with SysV as init system b) running a system without systemd installed c) running a system without libsystemd0 installed If you need a), then quite likely Debian Buster is fine for you. If you need b) and don't need a complex¹ X11/Wayland desktop environment, then Debian Buster is likely fine as well. If you need c) and/or a complex¹ X11/Wayland desktop environment, then Debian Buster is most likely no fun for you - might be possible, but you will feel alone and bugreports will be harder to debug due to your complex setup (in particular your suppressing package recommendations). ¹ In this context, "complex" desktop environments include GNOME, KDE, Cinnamon, MATE and more - as a rule of thumb anything which directly or indirectly recommends dbus-user-session. It's nice to see that you agree. blessings, -- Jimmy Johnson Slackware64 11.19.KDE5 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda7 Registered Linux User #380263
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 16:40:52 +0100 Alberto Luaces wrote: > "0...@caiway.net" writes: > > > But I do like systemd-container very much. > > What is that thing? Another name for systemd-nspawn? > package systemd-container provides systemd's tools for nspawn and container/VM management: * systemd-nspawn * systemd-machined and machinectl * systemd-importd
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
"0...@caiway.net" writes: > But I do like systemd-container very much. What is that thing? Another name for systemd-nspawn? -- Alberto
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
Quoting Jimmy Johnson (2019-12-16 02:13:08) > On 12/14/19 5:29 AM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: > > Hi Alessandro, > > > > Quoting Alessandro Vesely (2019-12-14 13:23:14) > >> On Sat 14/Dec/2019 03:18:39 +0100 Kenneth Parker wrote: > >>> > >>> I use Devuan, especially on older hardware. Works well. > >> > >> > >> Good to know. For the time being, I see SysV is working. I'm on > >> old-stable Debian. As, in a few months, it will be time to > >> migrate, I'll have to decide on Devuan (current) vs. Buster. Any > >> recommendation on that? Will the voted resolution shred any light > >> on migration strategies? > > > > Since this is a Debian list, I recommend to discuss Debian here, and > > consult Devuan mailinglist for details of what they can offer. > > > > The vote currently in Debian will affect _future_ releases of > > Debian, not the current stable release, Buster. > > > > For Debian Buster (regardless of the outcome of the vote) SysV is a > > supported init system: Please do report any flaws you may encounter! > > Kde5 on buster without systemd don't work, True, and also what I wrote (and even mentioned KDE explicitly): Depends on which kind of system you need and how much of systemd must be gone. In case you missed, here it is again: > Beware in discussions here and elsewhere to distinguish between these: > > a) running a system with SysV as init system > b) running a system without systemd installed > c) running a system without libsystemd0 installed > > If you need a), then quite likely Debian Buster is fine for you. > > If you need b) and don't need a complex¹ X11/Wayland desktop > environment, then Debian Buster is likely fine as well. > > If you need c) and/or a complex¹ X11/Wayland desktop environment, then > Debian Buster is most likely no fun for you - might be possible, but > you will feel alone and bugreports will be harder to debug due to your > complex setup (in particular your suppressing package > recommendations). > > ¹ In this context, "complex" desktop environments include GNOME, KDE, > Cinnamon, MATE and more - as a rule of thumb anything which directly > or indirectly recommends dbus-user-session. Kind regards - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 15:36:00 -0800 Peter Ehlert wrote: > drama queen much? > I did not like the idea of systemd. But I do like systemd-container very much. I am using it for years now. Run services in a container, easy backup, easy migrate, reboot in 3 seconds. So nowadays I tolerate systemd in my systems.
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
On 12/14/19 5:29 AM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: Hi Alessandro, Quoting Alessandro Vesely (2019-12-14 13:23:14) On Sat 14/Dec/2019 03:18:39 +0100 Kenneth Parker wrote: I use Devuan, especially on older hardware. Works well. Good to know. For the time being, I see SysV is working. I'm on old-stable Debian. As, in a few months, it will be time to migrate, I'll have to decide on Devuan (current) vs. Buster. Any recommendation on that? Will the voted resolution shred any light on migration strategies? Since this is a Debian list, I recommend to discuss Debian here, and consult Devuan mailinglist for details of what they can offer. The vote currently in Debian will affect _future_ releases of Debian, not the current stable release, Buster. For Debian Buster (regardless of the outcome of the vote) SysV is a supported init system: Please do report any flaws you may encounter! Kde5 on buster without systemd don't work, all kde5 is config for systemd, screen settings and pluseaudio will not save settings, to bad, so sad. Give it a try and see for yourself. -- Jimmy Johnson Slackware64 14.2 - KDE 4.14.32 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda5 Registered Linux User #380263
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
On 12/13/19 1:55 PM, Britton Kerin wrote: I see from below vote that we're working on dumping other init systems now as expected. Luckily I've given up on debian since systemd in the first place and am in long process of finding a replacement. Some options are slackware it comes with xfce and kde4, slackware live with kde5, another is mxlinux for xfce, it's real nice, probably the best xfce desktop I've seen if you like xfce and it's using debian, and another is pclinuxos it has xfce and kde5. I'm running pclos kde5, slackware 14.2, slackware current and slackware live kde5 and I'm still testing debian but I don't think it's linux anymore than windows10 is, just another mainstream backdoor. Already mentioned are bsd and devuan and devuan has some forks to look at too. -- Jimmy Johnson Slackware64 14.2 - KDE 4.14.32 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda5 Registered Linux User #380263
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
On 15/12/19 7:53 am, ghe wrote: >> On Fri, Dec 13, 2019, 17:12 Britton Kerin wrote: >> >>> I see from below vote that we're working on dumping other init systems >>> now as expected. Luckily I've given up on debian since systemd in the >>> first place and am in long process of finding a replacement. > > Might want to take a look at the BSDs too, if you'd like to learn some > new stuff. > > I tried a while back (the 'ballot' on the Debian site says not to > badmouth systemd), and freeBsd was the one I came closest to getting to > run. Very nice people, and I know a couple admins who swear by it. Yes, it is so bad and pointless (other than for which has been said about making it ripe as a corporate alternative to RHEL); it wouldn't surprise me if there was a lot more to Ian Murdock's demise. He would be turning in his grave right now, I was him, I sure would be. A. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
On 12/14/19 2:35 PM, Darac Marjal wrote: > Why do people get so het up about Ethernet names in Linux? They're > renamable quite easily. So you can have "eth0" or "ens92" or "wlp0s41" > or "internet" or "Local Area Connection 1" if you like. Well, perhaps > not the last one. I'm not sure about spaces. I didn't know it was possible to change them back then. And Linux does all kinds of 'interesting' things with spaces :-) -- Glenn English
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
On 14/12/2019 20:53, ghe wrote: >> On Fri, Dec 13, 2019, 17:12 Britton Kerin wrote: >> >>> I see from below vote that we're working on dumping other init systems >>> now as expected. Luckily I've given up on debian since systemd in the >>> first place and am in long process of finding a replacement. > Might want to take a look at the BSDs too, if you'd like to learn some > new stuff. > > I tried a while back (the 'ballot' on the Debian site says not to > badmouth systemd), and freeBsd was the one I came closest to getting to > run. Very nice people, and I know a couple admins who swear by it. > > I came back to Linux because the disk and Ethernet names in /dev were so > much easier to deal with in Linux. I see Linux has fixed that now... > Why do people get so het up about Ethernet names in Linux? They're renamable quite easily. So you can have "eth0" or "ens92" or "wlp0s41" or "internet" or "Local Area Connection 1" if you like. Well, perhaps not the last one. I'm not sure about spaces.
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
> On Fri, Dec 13, 2019, 17:12 Britton Kerin wrote: > >> I see from below vote that we're working on dumping other init systems >> now as expected. Luckily I've given up on debian since systemd in the >> first place and am in long process of finding a replacement. Might want to take a look at the BSDs too, if you'd like to learn some new stuff. I tried a while back (the 'ballot' on the Debian site says not to badmouth systemd), and freeBsd was the one I came closest to getting to run. Very nice people, and I know a couple admins who swear by it. I came back to Linux because the disk and Ethernet names in /dev were so much easier to deal with in Linux. I see Linux has fixed that now... -- Glenn English
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 14:05:43 + Jonathan Dowland wrote: Hello Jonathan, >The disassociation between the population of debian-user and the >project itself, Is (inevitable|a fact of life). It's Debian's ball. It's Debian's game. They make the rules. >who's it was), is still eye-opening to me. Not a good thing IMHO. All distros exercise some degree of separation between users and creators. For example, developers (AFAIAA) aren't _required_ to subscribe to any of the user lists. Separation. -- Regards _ / ) "The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent" I'll tell you something, I think that you should know Rich Kids - Rich Kids pgppQQ9yJBk6Q.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
On Sb, 14 dec 19, 14:05:43, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 08:46:55AM -0500, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: > > Discussions have been taking place on debian-vote (specific to this > > vote), but also debian-project, debian-devel, and various other Debian > > mailing lists. For. A. Long. Time. > > The disassociation between the population of debian-user and the project > itself, as evidenced by the puzzling over that ballot (I wonder who's it > was), is still eye-opening to me. Not a good thing IMHO. The subscribers of debian-user are not necessarily representative of the entire Debian user community. Additionally - as you are surely aware - interested Debian users (whether subscribers of debian-user or not) are free to follow other lists, such as debian-devel-announce: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2019/10/msg2.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2019/11/msg1.html In my opinion it was probably better that only a few non-Debian Members got involved. The discussions were difficult enough. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 01:23:14PM +0100, Alessandro Vesely wrote: > On Sat 14/Dec/2019 03:18:39 +0100 Kenneth Parker wrote: > > > > I use Devuan, especially on older hardware. Works well. > > > Good to know. For the time being, I see SysV is working. I'm on old-stable > Debian. As, in a few months, it will be time to migrate, I'll have to decide > on Devuan (current) vs. Buster. Any recommendation on that? Will the voted > resolution shred any light on migration strategies? Buster here. No systemd. Works a charm. Some specific packages depend on systemd. Maybe with the time they become more and more. Maybe not. Cheers -- tomás signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 08:46:55AM -0500, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: Discussions have been taking place on debian-vote (specific to this vote), but also debian-project, debian-devel, and various other Debian mailing lists. For. A. Long. Time. The disassociation between the population of debian-user and the project itself, as evidenced by the puzzling over that ballot (I wonder who's it was), is still eye-opening to me. Not a good thing IMHO. -- Jonathan Dowland
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 07:58:59AM -0500, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: > Where was this survey / vote? What was the question? Not very many voters, > and the meanings of some of the choices are not very clear to me -- maybe > they > would be with the added context of knowing the question and/or source of the > survey. > > E.g. : "Support portability, without blocking progress" -- support > portability > of what, and in what way? And without blocking progress of what? > The vote is ongoing: https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002 The voters are official Debian Developers. Voting is open for two more weeks. Discussions have been taking place on debian-vote (specific to this vote), but also debian-project, debian-devel, and various other Debian mailing lists. For. A. Long. Time. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sánchez
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 07:58:59 -0500 rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: Hello rhkra...@gmail.com, >Where was this survey / vote? What was the question? Not very many Voting closes 27 Dec 2019. Only Debian Developers are eligible to vote. -- Regards _ / ) "The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent" Only the wounded remain, the generals have all left the game Generals - The Damned pgp8y3yYI35dV.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
Hi Alessandro, Quoting Alessandro Vesely (2019-12-14 13:23:14) > On Sat 14/Dec/2019 03:18:39 +0100 Kenneth Parker wrote: > > > > I use Devuan, especially on older hardware. Works well. > > > Good to know. For the time being, I see SysV is working. I'm on > old-stable Debian. As, in a few months, it will be time to migrate, > I'll have to decide on Devuan (current) vs. Buster. Any > recommendation on that? Will the voted resolution shred any light on > migration strategies? Since this is a Debian list, I recommend to discuss Debian here, and consult Devuan mailinglist for details of what they can offer. The vote currently in Debian will affect _future_ releases of Debian, not the current stable release, Buster. For Debian Buster (regardless of the outcome of the vote) SysV is a supported init system: Please do report any flaws you may encounter! Beware in discussions here and elsewhere to distinguish between these: a) running a system with SysV as init system b) running a system without systemd installed c) running a system without libsystemd0 installed If you need a), then quite likely Debian Buster is fine for you. If you need b) and don't need a complex¹ X11/Wayland desktop environment, then Debian Buster is likely fine as well. If you need c) and/or a complex¹ X11/Wayland desktop environment, then Debian Buster is most likely no fun for you - might be possible, but you will feel alone and bugreports will be harder to debug due to your complex setup (in particular your suppressing package recommendations). ¹ In this context, "complex" desktop environments include GNOME, KDE, Cinnamon, MATE and more - as a rule of thumb anything which directly or indirectly recommends dbus-user-session. Kind regards, - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
Where was this survey / vote? What was the question? Not very many voters, and the meanings of some of the choices are not very clear to me -- maybe they would be with the added context of knowing the question and/or source of the survey. E.g. : "Support portability, without blocking progress" -- support portability of what, and in what way? And without blocking progress of what? On Friday, December 13, 2019 04:55:17 PM Britton Kerin wrote: > I see from below vote that we're working on dumping other init systems > now as expected. Luckily I've given up on debian since systemd in the > first place and am in long process of finding a replacement. > > Britton > > > - - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 7b77e0f2-4ff9-4adb-85e4-af249191f27a > > [ 3 ] Choice 1: F: Focus on systemd > > [ 1 ] Choice 2: B: Systemd but we support exploring alternatives > > [ ] Choice 3: A: Support for multiple init systems is Important > > [ ] Choice 4: D: Support non-systemd systems, without blocking progress > > [ 2 ] Choice 5: H: Support portability, without blocking progress > > [ ] Choice 6: E: Support for multiple init systems is Required > > [ ] Choice 7: G: Support portability and multiple implementations > > [ 4 ] Choice 8: Further Discussion > > - - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
On Sat 14/Dec/2019 03:18:39 +0100 Kenneth Parker wrote: > > I use Devuan, especially on older hardware. Works well. Good to know. For the time being, I see SysV is working. I'm on old-stable Debian. As, in a few months, it will be time to migrate, I'll have to decide on Devuan (current) vs. Buster. Any recommendation on that? Will the voted resolution shred any light on migration strategies? Best Ale
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
On Dec 13, 2019 8:00 PM, "Default User" wrote: On Fri, Dec 13, 2019, 17:12 Britton Kerin wrote: > I see from below vote that we're working on dumping other init systems > now as expected. Luckily I've given up on debian since systemd in the > first place and am in long process of finding a replacement. > > Britton > > > - - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > 7b77e0f2-4ff9-4adb-85e4-af249191f27a > > [ 3 ] Choice 1: F: Focus on systemd > > [ 1 ] Choice 2: B: Systemd but we support exploring alternatives > > [ ] Choice 3: A: Support for multiple init systems is Important > > [ ] Choice 4: D: Support non-systemd systems, without blocking progress > > [ 2 ] Choice 5: H: Support portability, without blocking progress > > [ ] Choice 6: E: Support for multiple init systems is Required > > [ ] Choice 7: G: Support portability and multiple implementations > > [ 4 ] Choice 8: Further Discussion > > - - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Britton, if you like Debian, but not systemd, you might want to check out Devuan. It has much of the Debian goodness, and you don't have to put up with the systemd [ insert one or more derogatory terms here ]. + I use Devuan, especially on older hardware. Works well. Kenneth Parker
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
On Fri, Dec 13, 2019, 17:12 Britton Kerin wrote: > I see from below vote that we're working on dumping other init systems > now as expected. Luckily I've given up on debian since systemd in the > first place and am in long process of finding a replacement. > > Britton > > > - - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > 7b77e0f2-4ff9-4adb-85e4-af249191f27a > > [ 3 ] Choice 1: F: Focus on systemd > > [ 1 ] Choice 2: B: Systemd but we support exploring alternatives > > [ ] Choice 3: A: Support for multiple init systems is Important > > [ ] Choice 4: D: Support non-systemd systems, without blocking progress > > [ 2 ] Choice 5: H: Support portability, without blocking progress > > [ ] Choice 6: E: Support for multiple init systems is Required > > [ ] Choice 7: G: Support portability and multiple implementations > > [ 4 ] Choice 8: Further Discussion > > - - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Britton, if you like Debian, but not systemd, you might want to check out Devuan. It has much of the Debian goodness, and you don't have to put up with the systemd [ insert one or more derogatory terms here ].
Re: looking for a replacement for debian since systemd
drama queen much? On 12/13/19 1:55 PM, Britton Kerin wrote: I see from below vote that we're working on dumping other init systems now as expected. Luckily I've given up on debian since systemd in the first place and am in long process of finding a replacement. Britton - - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 7b77e0f2-4ff9-4adb-85e4-af249191f27a [ 3 ] Choice 1: F: Focus on systemd [ 1 ] Choice 2: B: Systemd but we support exploring alternatives [ ] Choice 3: A: Support for multiple init systems is Important [ ] Choice 4: D: Support non-systemd systems, without blocking progress [ 2 ] Choice 5: H: Support portability, without blocking progress [ ] Choice 6: E: Support for multiple init systems is Required [ ] Choice 7: G: Support portability and multiple implementations [ 4 ] Choice 8: Further Discussion - - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
