Re: X - window manager - desktop
From: Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: X - window manager - desktop Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 23:06:00 -0800 On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 01:35:33AM -0500, Bruce Park wrote: the X? What exactly is a window manager? twm, enlightment, sawfish ... I The window manager handles things like window title bars, resizing, and other basic window elements. You can run X without a window manager, though you won't be able to manipulate windows easy or as extensively as you can with a window manager. So window manager is optional but not really necessary? Then there is the desktop like gnome or kde which are just desktops. Can anyone explain this to me? Desktop environments sit above the window manager similar to how window managers sit above X. The desktop environment provides things like iconic drag and drop representation of your filesystem, usually a Windows/Macish toolbelt, etc., oriented towards being a replacement to actually using the command line. Some people find desktop environments useful, I find them slow, bloated and a shiny, chrome waste of space. YMMV. Paul, I too find having a desktop unnecessary. I do prefer using the command line most of the time because it's quicker. By the time I reach for my mouse, I've already wasted a good second when I could have type 5 or more characters. The reason why I want a desktop is purely for its looks. other times, I may use nautilus to peek at a page with 2 files and I dont' know which is which. Sure I can use a UNIX command to do this but sometimes this is easier and neater. Another reason why I like to have it is because I love having multiple emacs windows open. I usually open 2 files in one window and have about 2 more windows open when I'm developing software. Here, the mouse comes in handy but thats because I haven't gotten used using the alt-tab key yet. Now for my next question, do desktops such as gnome and kde require a specific version of window manager? bp -- .''`. Baloo Ursidae [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than to fix a system attach3 _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: X - window manager - desktop
-- Bruce Park [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote (on Friday, 08 November 2002, 01:01 PM -0500): From: Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: X - window manager - desktop Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 23:06:00 -0800 On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 01:35:33AM -0500, Bruce Park wrote: the X? What exactly is a window manager? twm, enlightment, sawfish ... I The window manager handles things like window title bars, resizing, and other basic window elements. You can run X without a window manager, though you won't be able to manipulate windows easy or as extensively as you can with a window manager. So window manager is optional but not really necessary? Yes, optional... but only marginally so. It's pretty difficult to manipulate windows otherwise. Then there is the desktop like gnome or kde which are just desktops. Can anyone explain this to me? Desktop environments sit above the window manager similar to how window managers sit above X. The desktop environment provides things like iconic drag and drop representation of your filesystem, usually a Windows/Macish toolbelt, etc., oriented towards being a replacement to actually using the command line. Some people find desktop environments useful, I find them slow, bloated and a shiny, chrome waste of space. YMMV. Paul, I too find having a desktop unnecessary. I do prefer using the command line most of the time because it's quicker. By the time I reach for my mouse, I've already wasted a good second when I could have type 5 or more characters. The reason why I want a desktop is purely for its looks. other times, I may use nautilus to peek at a page with 2 files and I dont' know which is which. Sure I can use a UNIX command to do this but sometimes this is easier and neater. Another reason why I like to have it is because I love having multiple emacs windows open. I usually open 2 files in one window and have about 2 more windows open when I'm developing software. Here, the mouse comes in handy but thats because I haven't gotten used using the alt-tab key yet. So, if you find most items on a desktop unnecessary and don't use them... use *just* a window manager. I operate pretty similarly to you, from what you describe. I use blackbox as a window manager. I utilize a file manager called ROX-filer (http://rox.sourceforge.net) that runs in a minimal amount of memory, loads *very* quickly, and can even display small thumbnails of images (it can also place icons on your desktop, if you're so inclined). I have gkrellm running along the left side of my screen, and it tells me when I have new mail, allows me to set alarms, and can control the volume from my soundcard when I listen to music. I have a pager, mainly so I can see which desktop I'm on and relative locations of windows. And I utilize aterm a *lot*, including one large, decoration-less and transparent aterm in one workspace that runs screen (which allows me to do most of my work in a single term, including mail reading, news reading, midnight commander, and vim). Basically, you get a window manager, and then decide which applications you want to use and get them, instead of grabbing an entire desktop environment and its related applications. Many, if not most, window managers are capable of utilizing gnome and kde apps *without* loading gnome or kde over themselves. It's a nice way to reduce the number of applications you have on your system as well as memory overhead. Now for my next question, do desktops such as gnome and kde require a specific version of window manager? So, I'm obviously prejudiced here -- I don't think you need gnome and kde -- just the libraries necessary to run whatever apps from these desktop environments you find necessary. BUT, if you decide to go the desktop environment route... It depends largely on which version of either you choose to use. The more recent versions of each require (or prefer) a netwm enabled window manager -- netwm is a newer standard for how window managers accept commands from applications and desktop environments. From what I remember, both have configuration tools that detect compatible window managers on your system and allow you to both enable and configure them. If you need a list of window managers, do an apt-cache search 'window manager' and weed through the list; there are also places on the web that have reviews of different ones (can't tell you any off the top of my head, though). -- Matthew Weier O'Phinney [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: X - window manager - desktop
On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 01:01:46PM -0500, Bruce Park wrote: So window manager is optional but not really necessary? Optional but rather necissary. Now for my next question, do desktops such as gnome and kde require a specific version of window manager? Not that I know of. -- .''`. Baloo Ursidae [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than to fix a system msg11854/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: X - window manager - desktop
Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 01:01:46PM -0500, Bruce Park wrote: Now for my next question, do desktops such as gnome and kde require a specific version of window manager? Not that I know of. I've heard rumors that KDE only really works well with kwm, but this could be rather old FUD. I know GNOME publishes a set of window manager standards, and any window manager that meets these standards will work fine. Pretty much every window manager these days does, excepting really old things like twm. (fvwm might only have partial support; windowmaker, enlightenment, sawfish, etc. all have the necessary bits.) -- David Maze [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://people.debian.org/~dmaze/ Theoretical politics is interesting. Politicking should be illegal. -- Abra Mitchell -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: X - window manager - desktop
On Friday 08 November 2002 19:08, David Z Maze wrote: Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 01:01:46PM -0500, Bruce Park wrote: Now for my next question, do desktops such as gnome and kde require a specific version of window manager? Not that I know of. I've heard rumors that KDE only really works well with kwm, but this could be rather old FUD. I know GNOME publishes a set of window manager standards, and any window manager that meets these standards will work fine. Pretty much every window manager these days does, excepting really old things like twm. (fvwm might only have partial support; windowmaker, enlightenment, sawfish, etc. all have the necessary bits.) KDE follows the ewmh spec which is the same spec that GNOME 2 uses. sawfish should work just fine with KDE and kwm should work just fine with GNOME. If you do not use the panel or the desktop icons you can get away with using just about any window manager. If you do want to use either of those programs though you really need a compliant wm. last I checked window maker was not ewmh compliant but did support the old GNOME 1 spec. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: X - window manager - desktop
On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 01:01:46PM -0500, Bruce Park wrote:
Paul, I too find having a desktop unnecessary. I do prefer using the
command line most of the time because it's quicker. By the time I reach for
my mouse, I've already wasted a good second when I could have type 5 or
more characters. The reason why I want a desktop is purely for its looks.
other times, I may use nautilus to peek at a page with 2 files and I dont'
know which is which. Sure I can use a UNIX command to do this but sometimes
this is easier and neater. Another reason why I like to have it is because
I love having multiple emacs windows open. I usually open 2 files in one
window and have about 2 more windows open when I'm developing software.
Here, the mouse comes in handy but thats because I haven't gotten used
using the alt-tab key yet.
I would suggest you have a look at sawfish then. It's scriptable using
a lisp dialect (rep) which isn't as scary as it sounds. I've set it up
so I hardly ever need to touch my mouse:
* shift+f1 opens up a new Eterm
* ctrl-meta-{z,x,c,v,b} controls XMMS from anywhere in X
* ctrl-meta-kp{7,9,1,3,5} moves the current window to the desired corner
(5 moves it into the centre of the screen)
* ctrl-meta-kp{4,8,6,2} moves the window in the desired direction until
it hits something
* ctrl-meta-[cursor key] moves the window focus in that direction
* ctrl-alt-[cursor key] moves the window a little in the desired
direction
* alt-f{5,6,7} maximises the window in both directions, horizontally and
vertically, respectively.
* shift-alt-f{5,6,7} does the same, but will only fill in free space
Combined with things like winner-mode in emacs and 8 separate virtual
workspaces (ctrl-f{1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8}), I hardly ever have to touch the
mouse. Web browsing is the big one, but the scroll wheel makes it
almost bearable.
-rob
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