subject:"google to pull support for firefox 3,5"

i'm just curious, is there any chance to bring iceweasel 4.0 to
stable before google ends support for 3,5? i got 4.0 on my
second computer with squeeze, but i had to mess a bit to get
it working, and it's not performing as well as i've expected.


http://techcrunch.com/2011/06/01/google-apps-to-pull-support-for-firefox-3-5-internet-explorer-7-and-safari-3/

/t


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Re: google to pull support for firefox 3,5

On 06/02/11 at 08:15pm, tadziu wrote:
 i'm just curious, is there any chance to bring iceweasel 4.0 to
 stable before google ends support for 3,5? i got 4.0 on my
 second computer with squeeze, but i had to mess a bit to get
 it working, and it's not performing as well as i've expected.
 
 
 http://techcrunch.com/2011/06/01/google-apps-to-pull-support-for-firefox-3-5-internet-explorer-7-and-safari-3/

How awful! Google has brought browsers to the PC hardware game: upgrade or get 
left behind.
I only upgrade browsers for security reasons, as I use noscript and 
requestpolicy and my browsing experience is essentially similar to my browsing 
experience in 1999. I am willing to bet gmail et al will continue to work for 
as long as you can use them without the fancy features (google does try their 
hand at requiring javascript now and then, such as the recent google images 
fiasco).

OK rambling aside, you can use iceweasel 4.0 from experimental. Also given that 
it exists there, I'm sure there are plans to bring it forward to unstable and 
testing (and probably backports). 

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Re: google to pull support for firefox 3,5

2011-06-02 Thread Nuno Magalhães

If their excuse was lack of standards' compliance maybe it'd kinda
make sense. If. There's something called graceful degradation and it
does force people to buy newer hardware. How green of Google Inc.
Reminds me to start migrating away from their products and start
treating them as Microsoft's. Guess i'll learn exim et al :)
/rant

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Re: google to pull support for firefox 3,5

On Thu, 2011-06-02 at 20:34 +0100, Nuno Magalhães wrote:
 If their excuse was lack of standards' compliance maybe it'd kinda
 make sense. If. There's something called graceful degradation and it
 does force people to buy newer hardware. How green of Google Inc.
 Reminds me to start migrating away from their products and start
 treating them as Microsoft's. Guess i'll learn exim et al :)
 /rant

Unfortunately there seems to be no search engine able to replace
Google's search engine.

E.g.
http://www.ixquick.com/
and
http://www.scroogle.org/cgi-bin/scraper.htm
can't replace Google for my needs.

Btw. I talk homepages down that use trackers, such as Google analytics.



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Re: google to pull support for firefox 3,5

2011-06-02 Thread shawn wilson

On Jun 2, 2011 3:35 PM, Nuno Magalhães nunomagalh...@eu.ipp.pt wrote:

 If their excuse was lack of standards' compliance maybe it'd kinda
 make sense. If. There's something called graceful degradation and it
 does force people to buy newer hardware. How green of Google Inc.
 Reminds me to start migrating away from their products and start
 treating them as Microsoft's. Guess i'll learn exim et al :)
 /rant


Politics aside, I actually wish more companies would do this. I've told
people for about a year now that I'll make web sites work for ie9 and
everything else or it'll just be tested for a certain version of ie. Not
supporting ff3.5 is a bit radical imo but I can understand.

However, its probably because (IIRC) firefox is going to stop supporting it
and force upgrades as much as possible. IIRC, they're tired of writing
security patches for 3.5 when they've changed their code base do much.

Re: google to pull support for firefox 3,5

On 06/02/11 at 03:56pm, shawn wilson wrote:
 On Jun 2, 2011 3:35 PM, Nuno Magalhães nunomagalh...@eu.ipp.pt wrote:
 
  If their excuse was lack of standards' compliance maybe it'd kinda
  make sense. If. There's something called graceful degradation and it
  does force people to buy newer hardware. How green of Google Inc.
  Reminds me to start migrating away from their products and start
  treating them as Microsoft's. Guess i'll learn exim et al :)
  /rant
 
 
 Politics aside, I actually wish more companies would do this. I've told
 people for about a year now that I'll make web sites work for ie9 and
 everything else or it'll just be tested for a certain version of ie. Not
 supporting ff3.5 is a bit radical imo but I can understand.
 
 However, its probably because (IIRC) firefox is going to stop supporting it
 and force upgrades as much as possible. IIRC, they're tired of writing
 security patches for 3.5 when they've changed their code base do much.

Whether mozilla stops supporting firefox 3.5 or not should have no bearing on 
whether a given website should work in it. 
Perhaps gmail desktop alerts shouldn't work, and you would be advised to 
upgrade if you wanted them, but gmail as a whole should continue working.
...as should all other google 'apps'...

Hell, I can use gmail in ie5. Why not ff3.5?


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Re: google to pull support for firefox 3,5

On 06/02/11 at 09:49pm, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
 Unfortunately there seems to be no search engine able to replace
 Google's search engine.
 
 E.g.
 http://www.ixquick.com/
 and
 http://www.scroogle.org/cgi-bin/scraper.htm
 can't replace Google for my needs.

Scroogle IS google. So.. not a great example?
 
 Btw. I talk homepages down that use trackers, such as Google analytics.

noscript and requestpolicy do a fair job at blocking such things. 

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Re: google to pull support for firefox 3,5

 Perhaps gmail desktop alerts shouldn't work, and you would be advised to 
 upgrade if you wanted them, but gmail as a whole should continue working.
 ...as should all other google 'apps'...


i doubt that. i failed to change google account settings with ff3,5. just got
information that my browser is no longer supported. i rather expect to get same
information when loggin to gmail soon. or maybe i just failed to find
workaround?

/t


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Re: google to pull support for firefox 3,5

On Thu, 2011-06-02 at 16:06 -0400, William Hopkins wrote:
 On 06/02/11 at 09:49pm, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
  Unfortunately there seems to be no search engine able to replace
  Google's search engine.
  
  E.g.
  http://www.ixquick.com/
  and
  http://www.scroogle.org/cgi-bin/scraper.htm
  can't replace Google for my needs.
 
 Scroogle IS google. So.. not a great example?

The 'hacked' Google don't need plugins to ensure that Google doesn't
collect your data. Not everybody is using Firefox.
But Scroogle for the German language isn't really a German Google, hits
very often are terrible translated English sides, when using Scroogle.
Other search engines, such as Clusty became untrustworthy.

  
  Btw. I talk homepages down that use trackers, such as Google analytics.
 
 noscript and requestpolicy do a fair job at blocking such things. 

There are a lot more that can do this I know, but to be secure I don't
like to leave the house armed with a Colt. If I would need a Colt to
leave my home, I wouldn't feel comfortable. Analogies might be a little
bit inappropriate, but IMO it's a similar situation.



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Re: google to pull support for firefox 3,5

2011-06-02 Thread Jeff Grossman

On Thu, 02 Jun 2011 21:49:18 +0200, Ralf Mardorf
ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote:

On Thu, 2011-06-02 at 20:34 +0100, Nuno Magalhães wrote:
 If their excuse was lack of standards' compliance maybe it'd kinda
 make sense. If. There's something called graceful degradation and it
 does force people to buy newer hardware. How green of Google Inc.
 Reminds me to start migrating away from their products and start
 treating them as Microsoft's. Guess i'll learn exim et al :)
 /rant

Unfortunately there seems to be no search engine able to replace
Google's search engine.

E.g.
http://www.ixquick.com/
and
http://www.scroogle.org/cgi-bin/scraper.htm
can't replace Google for my needs.

Btw. I talk homepages down that use trackers, such as Google analytics.


Google will stop supporting older browsers for their Google Apps
application, not their search engine.  I am sure you will be able to
continue using any old browser you can find to use Google Search.

Jeff


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Re: google to pull support for firefox 3,5

On 06/02/11 at 10:17pm, tadziu wrote:
  Perhaps gmail desktop alerts shouldn't work, and you would be advised to 
  upgrade if you wanted them, but gmail as a whole should continue working.
  ...as should all other google 'apps'...
 
 
 i doubt that. i failed to change google account settings with ff3,5. just got
 information that my browser is no longer supported. i rather expect to get 
 same
 information when loggin to gmail soon. or maybe i just failed to find
 workaround?
 

As I said, it works even in IE5. I just lie and say I'm using a 'supported' 
browser. the js-free version of gmail is a simple site.


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Re: google to pull support for firefox 3,5

On Thu, 2011-06-02 at 13:21 -0700, Jeff Grossman wrote:
 On Thu, 02 Jun 2011 21:49:18 +0200, Ralf Mardorf
 ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote:
 
 On Thu, 2011-06-02 at 20:34 +0100, Nuno Magalhães wrote:
  If their excuse was lack of standards' compliance maybe it'd kinda
  make sense. If. There's something called graceful degradation and it
  does force people to buy newer hardware. How green of Google Inc.
  Reminds me to start migrating away from their products and start
  treating them as Microsoft's. Guess i'll learn exim et al :)
  /rant
 
 Unfortunately there seems to be no search engine able to replace
 Google's search engine.
 
 E.g.
 http://www.ixquick.com/
 and
 http://www.scroogle.org/cgi-bin/scraper.htm
 can't replace Google for my needs.
 
 Btw. I talk homepages down that use trackers, such as Google analytics.
 
 
 Google will stop supporting older browsers for their Google Apps
 application, not their search engine.  I am sure you will be able to
 continue using any old browser you can find to use Google Search.
 
 Jeff
 
 

My reply was regarding to reminds me to start migrating away from their
products and start treating them as Microsoft's, regarding to Google's
behaviour in general.



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Re: google to pull support for firefox 3,5

On 06/02/11 at 10:21pm, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
 On Thu, 2011-06-02 at 16:06 -0400, William Hopkins wrote:
  On 06/02/11 at 09:49pm, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
   Unfortunately there seems to be no search engine able to replace
   Google's search engine.
   
   E.g.
   http://www.ixquick.com/
   and
   http://www.scroogle.org/cgi-bin/scraper.htm
   can't replace Google for my needs.
  
  Scroogle IS google. So.. not a great example?
 
 The 'hacked' Google don't need plugins to ensure that Google doesn't
 collect your data. Not everybody is using Firefox.
 But Scroogle for the German language isn't really a German Google, hits
 very often are terrible translated English sides, when using Scroogle.
 Other search engines, such as Clusty became untrustworthy.

I don't follow your meaning of 'hacked'.
I wasn't aware scroogle didn't localize, sorry. But it IS still google. 

   
   Btw. I talk homepages down that use trackers, such as Google analytics.
  
  noscript and requestpolicy do a fair job at blocking such things. 
 
 There are a lot more that can do this I know, but to be secure I don't
 like to leave the house armed with a Colt. If I would need a Colt to
 leave my home, I wouldn't feel comfortable. Analogies might be a little
 bit inappropriate, but IMO it's a similar situation.

I have no idea what you are talking about. 1) these addons are for privacy more 
than security 2) your analogy is awkward, if you lived in some dangerous area 
and had to carry a gun... what? Are you suggesting not to do so for 'comfort'?
I really am lost here. What's your proposed alternative?



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Re: google to pull support for firefox 3,5


 As I said, it works even in IE5. I just lie and say I'm using a 'supported' 
 browser. the js-free version of gmail is a simple site.



implying that i'd like to use gmail in plain html, but i dont. are you
shure that
i'll preserve my current gmail functionality when i'll use your
workaround after
ff3,5 becomes obsolete?


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Re: google to pull support for firefox 3,5

On 06/02/11 at 10:54pm, tadziu wrote:
 
  As I said, it works even in IE5. I just lie and say I'm using a 'supported' 
  browser. the js-free version of gmail is a simple site.
 
 
 
 implying that i'd like to use gmail in plain html, but i dont. are you
 shure that
 i'll preserve my current gmail functionality when i'll use your
 workaround after
 ff3,5 becomes obsolete?

I explicitly stated that I use plain HTML. I'm sure none of the fancy 
javascript crap will keep working, which points out the foolishness of treating 
a web page like an application.

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Re: google to pull support for firefox 3,5

2011-06-02 Thread shawn wilson

On Jun 2, 2011 4:54 PM, tadziu tadzi...@gmail.com wrote:

 
  As I said, it works even in IE5. I just lie and say I'm using a
'supported' browser. the js-free version of gmail is a simple site.
 
 

 implying that i'd like to use gmail in plain html, but i dont. are you
 shure that
 i'll preserve my current gmail functionality when i'll use your
 workaround after
 ff3,5 becomes obsolete?


Tried chromium? ;)

Re: google to pull support for firefox 3,5


 I explicitly stated that I use plain HTML. I'm sure none of the fancy 
 javascript crap will keep working, which points out the foolishness of 
 treating a web page like an application.


i fully understand your point aswell as atitude towards web apps. but
mind two cases:
first: (not particular google case) i came to a point where i simply
can't avoid
using javascript based web applications. i'm a librarian and i just HAVE to work
on web based databases (vtls)- with ajax interfaces. you can call it
foolishness,
but there are points where you just can't choose for yourself.
second: google tries to force people to use new standarts, and it's not cool.
but functionality of gmail embeded chat has its advantage of being portable
(including logs). again you can call it crap, but i find it usefull in many
situations.

i'll manage to upgrade ff in squeeze or force myself to use pidgin. but in
my opion stable branch is a little bit to 'conservative' especially for
persons like my wife, who is not interested all of the software intricacies
(i know i should have installed her ubuntu insted of debian ;) ).

cheers,

/t


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Re: google to pull support for firefox 3,5

2011-06-02 Thread Javier Barroso

On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 8:27 PM, William Hopkins we.hopk...@gmail.com wrote:
On 06/02/11 at 08:15pm, tadziu wrote:
i'm just curious, is there any chance to bring iceweasel 4.0 to
stable before google ends support for 3,5? i got 4.0 on my
second computer with squeeze, but i had to mess a bit to get
it working, and it's not performing as well as i've expected.

http://techcrunch.com/2011/06/01/google-apps-to-pull-support-for-firefox-3-5-internet-explorer-7-and-safari-3/

OK rambling aside, you can use iceweasel 4.0 from experimental. Also given
that it exists there, I'm sure there are plans to bring it forward to
unstable and testing (and probably backports).
Yes, better from backports :)

See: http://mozilla.debian.net/

But you won't have two iceweasel installed at the same time, but I'm
sure 4.0 run fine ...

Regards,

Re: google to pull support for firefox 3,5

On Thu, 2011-06-02 at 16:32 -0400, William Hopkins wrote:
 On 06/02/11 at 10:21pm, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
  On Thu, 2011-06-02 at 16:06 -0400, William Hopkins wrote:
   On 06/02/11 at 09:49pm, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
Unfortunately there seems to be no search engine able to replace
Google's search engine.

E.g.
http://www.ixquick.com/
and
http://www.scroogle.org/cgi-bin/scraper.htm
can't replace Google for my needs.
   
   Scroogle IS google. So.. not a great example?
  
  The 'hacked' Google don't need plugins to ensure that Google doesn't
  collect your data. Not everybody is using Firefox.
  But Scroogle for the German language isn't really a German Google, hits
  very often are terrible translated English sides, when using Scroogle.
  Other search engines, such as Clusty became untrustworthy.
 
 I don't follow your meaning of 'hacked'.
 I wasn't aware scroogle didn't localize, sorry. But it IS still google. 
 

Btw. I talk homepages down that use trackers, such as Google analytics.
   
   noscript and requestpolicy do a fair job at blocking such things. 
  
  There are a lot more that can do this I know, but to be secure I don't
  like to leave the house armed with a Colt. If I would need a Colt to
  leave my home, I wouldn't feel comfortable. Analogies might be a little
  bit inappropriate, but IMO it's a similar situation.
 
 I have no idea what you are talking about. 1) these addons are for privacy 
 more than security 2) your analogy is awkward, if you lived in some dangerous 
 area and had to carry a gun... what? Are you suggesting not to do so for 
 'comfort'?
 I really am lost here. What's your proposed alternative?

(If we have the choice) we should ban everything that is doubtful. A
quixotic project ;).



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Re: google to pull support for firefox 3,5

2011-06-02 Thread Arno Schuring

This is almost getting O/T, but anyways...

Ralf Mardorf (ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net on 2011-06-02 21:49 +0200):
 Unfortunately there seems to be no search engine able to replace
 Google's search engine.
Like you said, it depends on what you use it for. I find DDG
(http://duckduckgo.com/Duck_Duck_Go) satisfies my needs perfectly. I've
been using ever since Google decided to start showing site thumbnails
on mouseover events.

To get slightly back on-topic: it also has a Firefox search plugin.
Check the Goodies link in the top bar.


Regards,
Arno


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Re: google to pull support for firefox 3,5

2011-06-02 Thread John Hasler

Arno Schuring writes:
 I find DDG (http://duckduckgo.com/Duck_Duck_Go) satisfies my needs
 perfectly.

Requires Javascript.  Google doesn't.

 I've been using ever since Google decided to start showing site
 thumbnails on mouseover events.

I've never seen those.
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Re: google to pull support for firefox 3,5