Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 10:05, Erik Steffl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and while we're at it - netherlands is really holland. No, it's not, actually. Holland is only part of the Netherlands. well, yes. but: in slovakia the name for the country is holandsko (slovak spelling for holland). maybe it insults some people in netherlands but that's how it is. so for me it makes perfect sense to call that country holland, I didn't even knew it's called netherlands until I learned english... People from the Netherlands (spelt Nederland in the local language) who incidentally are referred to as Dutch in all English speaking countries generally don't tend to get offended by such things. North Holland (Noord Holland) and South Holland (Zuid Holland) are two provinces of the Netherlands, the people in those provinces tend to not mind the entire country being mis-named, while people who live in other provinces are more interested in correcting it. Below is a URL containing a map of the provinces of the Netherlands, it was the first result that google returned... http://www.coffeeshop.freeuk.com/General/Provinces.html Nederland means low land. The Slovak term for low land would be another possible name for the country. I am sure that is not the only example where the name of the country is confused or country has completely different names in different languages. In the case of an installer or any other software which offers a selection of languages the right thing to do is to display every name in it's local form. So refer to Germany as Deutschland, South Africa as Zuid Africa, etc. When someone is installing software you can assume that they know the local form of their country's name and the representation of their language's name in that language, they can not be expected to know other forms. I expect that most people here don't know what language Anglais is, or what country is referred to as VS. -- http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/ My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/ Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/ My home page -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
John Hasler escribió: OK, then I vote that we replace United States of America with America. It's also universally understood. America is ambiguous. United States of America is not a controversial political statement at variance with common usage. I agree. America is more than US ( i.e. South America). Regards. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
On Fri, Apr 09, 2004 at 03:29:34PM +, Pedro M. (Morphix User) wrote: John Hasler escribió: OK, then I vote that we replace United States of America with America. It's also universally understood. America is ambiguous. United States of America is not a controversial political statement at variance with common usage. I agree. America is more than US ( i.e. South America). You need to define your terms carefully. America describes two things: a continent and a country. The only country containing the word America is the USA. We are not discussing lists of continents in Debian, only countries. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Miles Bader wrote: On Tue, Apr 06, 2004 at 05:42:00PM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote: Furthermore, doesn't Hong Kong use Traditional Chinese? In this case, the issue of writing style is rather independent of the status of Taiwan. Yup. I wonder whether there's any pressure on them these days to change, since ... you know. [Interestingly I've heard that they're still used reasonably often on the mainland, for things like signs c.] Probably not. The two main dialects are Mandarin and Cantonese. After the revolution, there was a move to supplant the original northern Mandarin with Pinyin, the new, improved, culturally approved version, but it didn't make much in the way of inroads after the original fashionable period was over. Most northerners still speak the original Mandarin. But it doesn't stop there. After the Han, which is the group that make up approx. 46% of the population, you have about 52 different minority groups, all with their own separate dialect, if not language. Most of my Chinese friends speak about five different dialects each. Then, you have another level, of strange intermixtures like a settlement of Moslems left over from the Turkoman Empire, and even a settlement of Chinese Jews. All of this must have some reflection in the pictorially-based characters that make up the writing that formed the basis for the Japanese structures as well. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
* Miles Bader ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [040407 03:25]: Andreas Barth [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: These names are[3] those chosen by the respective countries -- _that_ is something I thing ought to be respected (so if Taiwan were to suddenly start calling itself [in English] `Province of China Taiwan', well then the argument is over I guess :-). Well, but we even don't name other countries like they call themself - but rather they are normally called within that country. (Well, at least I hope that we don't have Federal Republic of Germany in the installer list ;) I suppose it's more accurate to say that the names used for most countries are those that are at least _acceptable_ by the country's people. [Actually given the comma-prefix notation, it would be quite reasonable to use Germany, Federal Republic of -- indeed it fits well -- but I'd guess most germans probably don't care a great deal one way or another.] I'm a german and I prefer definitly Germany. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Katipo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
But it doesn't stop there. After the Han,
which is the group that make up approx. 46% of the population,
Han makes up 92% of the population, not 46%.
--
Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 is out! ( http://www.debian.org/ )
Email: Herbert Xu ~{PmVHI~} [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Home Page: http://gondor.apana.org.au/~herbert/
PGP Key: http://gondor.apana.org.au/~herbert/pubkey.txt
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Herbert Xu wrote: Katipo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But it doesn't stop there. After the Han, which is the group that make up approx. 46% of the population, Han makes up 92% of the population, not 46%. Yes, you're quite right. My source was quite dated, and must have been inaccurate even then, and reinforced since then by a friend from Tian Jin also (Han, incidentally). Oh well, we live and learn. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Miles Bader [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb/wrote: Anthony Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: certainly it is NOT a bug. Anyone with half a brain can see that. So how do you justify the brokenness of the Taiwan entry -- which unlike every other entry, doesn't properly yield the name of the country? Given that the People's Republic of China is a UN member state whereas the Republic of China/Taiwan is not, is is only /consequent/ to label Taiwan that way. That does not mean Debian -- or everyone else -- has to follow. BTW, there are a lot of other names from ISO 3166 that IMO should be changed for everyday use: Short name contains unnecessary parts from the full official name (probably for political hyper-correctness): IRAN, ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF;IR= IRAN LAO PEOPLE'S DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC;LA = LAOS MICRONESIA, FEDERATED STATES OF;FM = MICRONESIA MOLDOVA, REPUBLIC OF;MD = MOLDOVA TANZANIA, UNITED REPUBLIC OF;TZ = TANZANIA A different short name is more common (again, the UN name was probably chosen for political correctness): KOREA, DEMOCRATIC PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF;KP = KOREA, NORTH KOREA, REPUBLIC OF;KR = KOREA, SOUTH Other strange entries: HOLY SEE (VATICAN CITY STATE);VA= VATICAN The country is Vatican City State. The Holy See is the Pope. The Vatican is not a UN member, whereas the Holy See is a (permanent IIRC) observer. So again, it's logical for the UN to use the name of the entity that has closer relations to the UN. For non-UN bodies, the use of the country name Vatican (City State) is more logical. PALESTINIAN TERRITORY, OCCUPIED;PS = PALESTINIAN TERRITORY This is actually the most problematic entry. Leaving out the occupied is not a big problem, though. It might be controversial whether to use just PALESTINE, however. ^ Claus -- http://www.faerber.muc.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
* Claus Färber [EMAIL PROTECTED] [040407 16:14]: Other strange entries: HOLY SEE (VATICAN CITY STATE);VA= VATICAN The country is Vatican City State. The Holy See is the Pope. A see is the seat within a bishop's diocese where his cathedral is located. A see is not a person. Vatican City is the Holy See. -- Lance Simmons signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Joey Hess wrote: Erik Steffl wrote: well, yes. but: in slovakia the name for the country is holandsko (slovak spelling for holland). maybe it insults some people in netherlands but that's how it is. so for me it makes perfect sense to call that country holland, I didn't even knew it's called netherlands until I learned english... The Debian installer is fully localised, this includes translations of all the country names in the installer, into all the languages supported by the installer. what does that have to do with the point? the point being that it's not that easy to figure out what to call the country and it's IMO better to leave it to some standard body instead of making statements one way or another (e.g. for/against china/taiwan). [i.e. my point wasn't about whether I get Holandsko if I choose slovak language] Please don't cause needless traffic by crossposting to debian-boot if you are unfamiliar with and have never used the Deban installer. well, I doubt the localization can kick in before user makes a choice (for which there is a need to make a list of offered choices, i.e. list of countries and languages, which is what we were discussing, I believe). [of course, the choice can either be at the run time or by choosing localized boot disks in the first place] erik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Erik Steffl wrote: Joey Hess wrote: Erik Steffl wrote: well, yes. but: in slovakia the name for the country is holandsko (slovak spelling for holland). maybe it insults some people in netherlands but that's how it is. so for me it makes perfect sense to call that country holland, I didn't even knew it's called netherlands until I learned english... The Debian installer is fully localised, this includes translations of all the country names in the installer, into all the languages supported by the installer. what does that have to do with the point? the point being that it's not that easy to figure out what to call the country and it's IMO better to leave it to some standard body instead of making statements one way or another (e.g. for/against china/taiwan). [i.e. my point wasn't about whether I get Holandsko if I choose slovak language] I wrote my response to correct misperceptions in the text to which I responded. Please don't cause needless traffic by crossposting to debian-boot if you are unfamiliar with and have never used the Deban installer. well, I doubt the localization can kick in before user makes a choice (for which there is a need to make a list of offered choices, i.e. list of countries and languages, which is what we were discussing, I believe). [of course, the choice can either be at the run time or by choosing localized boot disks in the first place] Again you're making incorrect assumptions about how the installer works without having tried it. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
John Hasler wrote: Erik Steffl writes: so you're going to call germany deutschland? Is Deutschland being labeled Germany to appease a powerful neighbor despite the objections of the inhabitants? I thought we're not into political disputes. that could make the list of countries quite incomprehensible for general public (different alphabets and all that). Which is no doubt why the Germans, being reasonable people, are willing to have their nation labeled Germany. that's not really up to us to decide (provided we don't want to get into politics). That's why I think it is better to use standard names, even though some of them might be objectionable from certain perspectives. As soon as you start deciding what some people like or not you're deep in smelly matter. Now if debian decides to make a political statement and call taiwan taiwan I am kinda for it, but let's not pretend that it's not a political statement, that it's neutral. erik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Erik Steffl wrote: That's why I think it is better to use standard names, even though some of them might be objectionable from certain perspectives. But that's the point! The name is objectionable from a technical perspective: it's unnecessarily long and bulky. We are not writing Germany (Federal Republic of), so why write Taiwan (Province of China)? Just because some piece of paper says it? Now if debian decides to make a political statement and call taiwan taiwan I am kinda for it, but let's not pretend that it's not a political statement, that it's neutral. The ISO standard is the thing that's being a political statement, not the other way round. Technically, we should just call Taiwan Taiwan. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Julian Mehnle wrote: Erik Steffl wrote: That's why I think it is better to use standard names, even though some of them might be objectionable from certain perspectives. But that's the point! The name is objectionable from a technical perspective: it's unnecessarily long and bulky. We are not writing well, perhaps if you'd fix _all_ of them...then again - if the countries have an official name and you abbreviate it to only contain what you think is neccessary... doesn't sound right... Germany (Federal Republic of), so why write Taiwan (Province of China)? Just because some piece of paper says it? there is number of names there that are of same form. if you are changing taiwan but not the other ones your are making political statement. what good is it to mask as technical issue? Now if debian decides to make a political statement and call taiwan taiwan I am kinda for it, but let's not pretend that it's not a political statement, that it's neutral. The ISO standard is the thing that's being a political statement, not the other way round. Technically, we should just call Taiwan Taiwan. how exactly is it _technically_ supposed to be called taiwan? use the official name or say that you are going to use some other name to make a statement (and taiwan is not official name in any way - not in iso standard, it's not what taiwan officially calls itself and it's not what china wants to call it, it's just an informal compromise). I am not saying taiwan shouldn't be used. but pretending it's not a political statement is dishonest. erik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm just a naïve gaijin[1], but I'm not sure you're right about that. Written zh_CN and zh_TW look very similar to Western eyes. I've seen a comparison of the two in some Sun documentation, and they really just looked like the exact same glyphs in two different fonts. Like look at English lettering in bold versus normal weight. (Not *exactly* like that, but close). I'm not sure what this has to do with the original question, but the simplified chinese characters used in the PRC can look _very_ different from the traditional forms used in Taiwan (anyway, it's not accurate to say the difference is `close to bold-versus-normal'). [One easy way to see an example if you use emacs is to view the `hello' buffer (C-h h), and look at the section `Difference among chinese characters' (you need a lot of fonts installed to see them all of course).] -Miles -- Would you like fries with that?
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Miles Bader wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Claus Färber) writes: BTW, there are a lot of other names from ISO 3166 that IMO should be changed for everyday use: Short name contains unnecessary parts from the full official name (probably for political hyper-correctness): IRAN, ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF;IR= IRAN LAO PEOPLE'S DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC;LA = LAOS MICRONESIA, FEDERATED STATES OF;FM = MICRONESIA MOLDOVA, REPUBLIC OF;MD = MOLDOVA TANZANIA, UNITED REPUBLIC OF;TZ = TANZANIA In all of these cases, a consistent form is followed: The part after the comma forms a proper prefix of the `common' name, and when used gives you the country's self-declared official name; taking the part before the comma gives you the common name[1]. This makes automatic processing easy. Removing the part after the comma from the database for the above countries yields no benefit. also note that this is only used if the proper name is not the first word in formal name (e.g. there's syrian arab republic, russian federation but tanzania, united republic of), so if the part after comma is removed then _all_ the parts related to form of government etc. shoul be removed, right? why should united republic of tanzania become tanzania but russian federation stay russian federation? I mean everybody knows what russia means. and while we're at it - netherlands is really holland. and... it's quite silly argument... It's only Taiwan that's weird, because (1) the resulting long name isn't a real name at all, but the rather awkward construct: Province of China Taiwan and obviously (2) that isn't the self-declared name of the country[2]. there's also SLOVAKIA (Slovak republic). so we have two names. so what. do we have to give up one? A different short name is more common (again, the UN name was probably chosen for political correctness): KOREA, DEMOCRATIC PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF;KP = KOREA, NORTH KOREA, REPUBLIC OF;KR = KOREA, SOUTH These names are[3] those chosen by the respective countries -- _that_ is something I thing ought to be respected (so if Taiwan were to suddenly start calling itself [in English] `Province of China Taiwan', well then the argument is over I guess :-). [1] The exceptions seem to be Laos, where the most common english name used isn't present, and perhaps North/South Korea, as discussed above. [2] Which as far as I can figure is Republic of China (Taiwan); I'm not sure how one would actually fit this into the comma-separated-prefix scheme... :-/ changing the names of countries is in some cases making a political statement, in other cases it's just rude (why not call the country whatever it wants to be called) btw funny that there' united states, not united states of america (I thought the latter is the official name) erik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Erik Steffl [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It's only Taiwan that's weird, because (1) the resulting long name isn't a real name at all, but the rather awkward construct: Province of China Taiwan and obviously (2) that isn't the self-declared name of the country[2]. there's also SLOVAKIA (Slovak republic). so we have two names. so what. do we have to give up one? No, why do you ask? I never said that. I presume in this case, the first word is the common name, and the parenthesized part is the official name, but both are presumably forms acceptable to Slovakia. [The use of parentheses seems pretty random though.] [2] Which as far as I can figure is Republic of China (Taiwan); I'm not sure how one would actually fit this into the comma-separated-prefix scheme... :-/ changing the names of countries is in some cases making a political statement, in other cases it's just rude (why not call the country whatever it wants to be called) Yeah, it's rude, and it's what the current text does: it calls Taiwan something they don't want to be called. btw funny that there' united states, not united states of america (I thought the latter is the official name) No idea about that; could be a bug... :-) -Miles -- Fast, small, soon; pick any 2. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Branden Robinson wrote: We have nothing to gain by taking sides political conflicts like this. [...] If some governmental interest needs to bowdlerize our distribution to satisify their political sensibilities, they can go ahead. IMO, this is really not about taking sides, and I think it's not about bowdlerization either. It's about providing a list of countries (technically speaking, localities on the country level that officially have distinct names) for the user to choose his own one. It helps neither the Chinese nor the Taiwanese in any way we should care about to call Taiwan Taiwan, Province of China in that list, it just makes the name longer and bulkier. It's not as if human users needed an accurate transcription of the ISO country names list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Hi Erik! You wrote: and while we're at it - netherlands is really holland. No, it's not, actually. Holland is only part of the Netherlands. -- Kind regards, ++ | Bas Zoetekouw | GPG key: 0644fab7 | || Fingerprint: c1f5 f24c d514 3fec 8bf6 | | [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] | a2b1 2bae e41f 0644 fab7 | ++ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Miles Bader wrote: I'm not sure what this has to do with the original question, but the simplified chinese characters used in the PRC can look _very_ different from the traditional forms used in Taiwan (anyway, it's not accurate to say the difference is `close to bold-versus-normal'). It's even quite obvious when you pick the right examples. Furthermore, doesn't Hong Kong use Traditional Chinese? In this case, the issue of writing style is rather independent of the status of Taiwan. -- Current mail filters: many dial-up/DSL/cable modem hosts, and the following domains: postino.it, tiscali.co.uk, tiscali.cz, tiscali.it, voila.fr. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
* Miles Bader ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [040406 07:25]: These names are[3] those chosen by the respective countries -- _that_ is something I thing ought to be respected (so if Taiwan were to suddenly start calling itself [in English] `Province of China Taiwan', well then the argument is over I guess :-). Well, but we even don't name other countries like they call themself - but rather they are normally called within that country. (Well, at least I hope that we don't have Federal Republic of Germany in the installer list ;) Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
* John Hasler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [040405 04:55]: Anthony Johnson writes: Yes, you love living in China Taiwan. Will you stand on the other side when you live in China mainland? The people who live on the island call it Taiwan. What's wrong with using the name they choose? Nothing. I consider it most appropriate if we use the name for any country in the way the people itself prefer to call it (except of course, if the name would be non-unique). Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
* Branden Robinson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [040406 07:40]: If some governmental interest needs to bowdlerize our distribution to satisify their political sensibilities, they can go ahead. Agreed. As anyone _can_ change any code in Debian, _we_ should stick as a default to the names that the people who it applies to like, and not to names who others have fixed on them. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
At 2004-04-06T20:37:43Z, Andreas Barth [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Agreed. As anyone _can_ change any code in Debian, _we_ should stick as a default to the names that the people who it applies to like, and not to names who others have fixed on them. Excellent! Now, how's that Unicode installer coming along? -- Kirk Strauser In Googlis non est, ergo non est. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
On Tue, Apr 06, 2004 at 05:42:00PM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote: Furthermore, doesn't Hong Kong use Traditional Chinese? In this case, the issue of writing style is rather independent of the status of Taiwan. Yup. I wonder whether there's any pressure on them these days to change, since ... you know. [Interestingly I've heard that they're still used reasonably often on the mainland, for things like signs c.] -Miles -- `Suppose Korea goes to the World Cup final against Japan and wins,' Moon said. `All the past could be forgiven.' [NYT] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Andreas Barth wrote: * John Hasler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [040405 04:55]: Anthony Johnson writes: Yes, you love living in China Taiwan. Will you stand on the other side when you live in China mainland? The people who live on the island call it Taiwan. What's wrong with using the name they choose? Nothing. I consider it most appropriate if we use the name for any country in the way the people itself prefer to call it (except of course, if the name would be non-unique). so you're going to call germany deutschland? etc. that could make the list of countries quite incomprehensible for general public (different alphabets and all that). erik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Bas Zoetekouw wrote: Hi Erik! You wrote: and while we're at it - netherlands is really holland. No, it's not, actually. Holland is only part of the Netherlands. well, yes. but: in slovakia the name for the country is holandsko (slovak spelling for holland). maybe it insults some people in netherlands but that's how it is. so for me it makes perfect sense to call that country holland, I didn't even knew it's called netherlands until I learned english... I am sure that is not the only example where the name of the country is confused or country has completely different names in different languages. so it makes sense to stick with _some_ standard. adjusting the names based on personal preference of one or another person (or group of people) doesn't make much sense - you're getting into issues that cannot be satisfactorily resolved. erik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Erik Steffl wrote: well, yes. but: in slovakia the name for the country is holandsko (slovak spelling for holland). maybe it insults some people in netherlands but that's how it is. so for me it makes perfect sense to call that country holland, I didn't even knew it's called netherlands until I learned english... The Debian installer is fully localised, this includes translations of all the country names in the installer, into all the languages supported by the installer. Please don't cause needless traffic by crossposting to debian-boot if you are unfamiliar with and have never used the Deban installer. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Erik Steffl writes: so you're going to call germany deutschland? Is Deutschland being labeled Germany to appease a powerful neighbor despite the objections of the inhabitants? that could make the list of countries quite incomprehensible for general public (different alphabets and all that). Which is no doubt why the Germans, being reasonable people, are willing to have their nation labeled Germany. -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler) Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Andreas Barth [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: These names are[3] those chosen by the respective countries -- _that_ is something I thing ought to be respected (so if Taiwan were to suddenly start calling itself [in English] `Province of China Taiwan', well then the argument is over I guess :-). Well, but we even don't name other countries like they call themself - but rather they are normally called within that country. (Well, at least I hope that we don't have Federal Republic of Germany in the installer list ;) I suppose it's more accurate to say that the names used for most countries are those that are at least _acceptable_ by the country's people. [Actually given the comma-prefix notation, it would be quite reasonable to use Germany, Federal Republic of -- indeed it fits well -- but I'd guess most germans probably don't care a great deal one way or another.] -Miles -- Run away! Run away! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Kirk Strauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Agreed. As anyone _can_ change any code in Debian, _we_ should stick as a default to the names that the people who it applies to like, and not to names who others have fixed on them. Excellent! Now, how's that Unicode installer coming along? As Joey pointed out, the language used is usually orthogonal to whether a name is acceptable to the country or not (and the former can be catered to by existing i18n mechanisms). -Miles --
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
On Tue, 2004-04-06 at 18:58, Erik Steffl wrote: Andreas Barth wrote: * John Hasler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [040405 04:55]: Anthony Johnson writes: Yes, you love living in China Taiwan. Will you stand on the other side when you live in China mainland? The people who live on the island call it Taiwan. What's wrong with using the name they choose? Nothing. I consider it most appropriate if we use the name for any country in the way the people itself prefer to call it (except of course, if the name would be non-unique). so you're going to call germany deutschland? etc. that could make the list of countries quite incomprehensible for general public (different alphabets and all that). Actually, yes. I believe that, whenever possible, country names (especially for the selection of language and locale) should be written in their native language. Of course, this would not apply if two English speakers are discussing Japan, for example, but when asking someone to choose their native country, the name of country should be written in their native tongue. After all, if I can't read Japanese, for example, I probably shouldn't be selecting Japanese as my installation language anyway. :) (Coincidentally, take a look at the various languages available on debian.org, fsf.org, gnu.org, google, etc.) -- Alex Malinovich Support Free Software, delete your Windows partition TODAY! Encrypted mail preferred. You can get my public key from any of the pgp.net keyservers. Key ID: A6D24837 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
RE: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
-Original Message- From: dircha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 5 April 2004 1:54 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China? Bruce Miller wrote: It is perfectly reasonable of Debian to adopt an international standard. It raises Debian above the debate which is taking place here. I protest. It is not perfectly reasonable. This is not a political issue for me. I have no established opinion as to whether or not Taiwan is properly a Province of China. Debian does not obtain neutrality by selecting an existing political compromise and simply saying, That's it, we don't want to get involved. Simply saying something does not make it so. As I explained at length, Province of China serves no legitimate purpose in the selection of a locale. Its sole purpose is to convey a political statement (a relation of political authority of a part to a whole) beyond this single purpose, a statement which is highly controversial. Debian can not hide behind it is a standard. As I have thoroughly explained previously, selecting Taiwan, Province of China is a choice (a selection made without necessity), and is not a choice warranted by any practical consideration. The perfectly reasonable option is to remove the political commentary, Province of China and to stop hiding behind it is a standard, an appeal to authority, as if that could legitimize the inclusion of an assertion of a political relation, where there ought not to be one. Even now, selecting Taiwan is not to select, not Province of China. Rather, it is to de-politicize the statement altogether. Taiwan does not mean, Taiwan, not Province of China. It is neutral on the issue. Publications around the world and in China itself employ Taiwan independently of Taiwan, Province of China. Neither is the act itself of now removing Province of China a political act. It is an act by a party that wishes to remain neutral to de-politicize the a representation of a locale. Further, no practical value is lost by de-politicizing this representation, for Province of China served no practical or non-political end to begin with. dircha Microsoft Server 2003 uses Taiwan. I can't work out what OSX uses as each country in the country list is shown in the alphabet/font/language of the country. Presumably it's one of the ones with dots and squiggles. (yes, the're all dot and sqiggles to someone, I know)
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Bruce Miller wrote: Joey Hess was on the mark to criticize members of this list for rising to flamebait. This far exceeds flamebait. It is a serious issue. I, myself, feel that we should have all been advised of this. By using Debian, we endorse it, and everything it represents. To be placed in the position of taking a political stance, without prior knowledge and consultation is odious. International technical fora are adamant that they discuss only technical issues and leave politics to the politicians. Exactly right. Get the politicians out of Debian. To help this international technical forum --- a mailing list about an operating system --- to do the same, let us remember what the politicians of the national government of most of the participants in this debate have done on this issue: The International Standards Organizations operates by consensus. The flip-side of consensus is that everyone has a veto. The ISO standard would not have happened without the 100% agreement of the United States Government. What the hell has this to do with the U.S. govt? The United Nations' usage is one which the United States Government agreed to of its own free will over 30 years ago and from which no subsequent Administration, neither Republican nor Democratic, has wavered since. If the U.N. had any balls at all, it would have stepped between the U.S., Britain, and Iraq before it even started. What has any of this got to do with Debian? Far be it from any of us outside the USA to criticize the right of Americans to criticize their government's policy, or for any other nationality to criticize its government's policy, but an international technical forum is not the place to do it. Please stay on topic. This thread concerns Debian involvement in the political arena, and not blind adherence to some corporate/political manipulation of an international standard. It is perfectly reasonable of Debian to adopt an international standard. As long as the standard is reasonable. It raises Debian above the debate which is taking place here. Not anymore. It's down in the mud, and it's looking dirty. What exactly is going on here? Is this pandering to a factor that represents over a quarter of the worlds' population, and what the inclusion of that factor could contribute to an open source project? And the devil takes Taiwan? Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Anthony Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anyone with half a brain can see what moronic thing the `Taiwan, Province of China' is. It's the _only_ `editorial comment' in the entire list (all other comma-separated entries are simple prefixes which when used result in each country's full official name; the Taiwan entry doesn't really fit). ... Debian shouldn't _make_ editorial comments like this, but they shouldn't dumbly stand by and mirror those made by others with fewer scruples. I wouldn't say Debian _made_ that editorial comment, they used it as it was proposed by some standard. If you don't like it, go against that one but not against Debian. I don't think it's a good idea to have everybody make a standard of its own, because then, there is no standard at all and anybody who wanted to, would be free to use even _really_ discriminating names. Yes, people around the world may influence politics and they may change such naming issues, but I don't think they can do so by urging some developers to change it and thus not conform to the standard. Finally, this is not a political list, this is not a political piece of software. Debian has chosen some worldwide standard and now they should adhere to it. Herewith I'll get out of this discussion again... Stefan -- +++ NEU bei GMX und erstmalig in Deutschland: TÜV-geprüfter Virenschutz +++ 100% Virenerkennung nach Wildlist. Infos: http://www.gmx.net/virenschutz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Stefan Tibus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Debian shouldn't _make_ editorial comments like this, but they shouldn't dumbly stand by and mirror those made by others with fewer scruples. I wouldn't say Debian _made_ that editorial comment, they used it as it was proposed by some standard. I didn't say they made it, indeed I said they _shouldn't_ do such a thing. If you don't like it, go against that one Of course, but ... but not against Debian. It's someone else's fault is a copout. Debian is not known for copping out, it's known for doing the right thing and damn the consequences. Think of it this way: It's a bug from upstream. The text in question doesn't fit the format of the file, it's a lone exception added purely for selfish political reasons by a bully. Deleting it will make the file more self-consistent. If a technical standard has a bug -- describes something hard or impossible to implement, or extremely inconvenient for users -- there may be grumbling and flamewars about it, but in many cases I would say debian would err on the side of `reasonableness' over slavish adherence to the standard (one possible example would be things affected by the POSIX_ME_HARDER, er, I mean, POSIXLY_CORRECT environment variable). Is this particular part of the standard crucial for proper operation? E.g., will someone lookup stuff in that file using the exact country description as an index? I don't know, but I'd say it's pretty unlikely -- much more probable is that they'll look for the country name (the part preceding the comma), or use other fields as index to find the country name. Humans of course can cope either way. -Miles -- Is it true that nothing can be known? If so how do we know this? -Woody Allen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
This is exactly the reason for which I suggested the name change for Taiwan in iso-codes. As far as I know and as far as I have understood, the Taiwan, province of China name is accepted by both People Republic of China and Republic of China (Taiwan). I'm sorry, Christian, but the above statement is radically wrong. The preferred viewpoint on the mainland is, that in time, the past kuomintang stronghold of Taiwan, R.O.C., would become incorporated into China. In emphasis of this, the preferred mailand political appellation of Taiwan is,'Taiwan, Province of China.' This concept is anathema to the Taiwanese. The post by 'Tetralet' is an honest expression and appraisal of the situation. I should further note that this adherence to 'official' standards is liable to offend others, also. Macedonia (contrary to popular belief, the 'c' is a hard, 'k' sound), was not just yugoslav territory, it is still claimed by the Greeks. Alexander, his father Phillip, and Bucephalus, remember? Both sides, Greek and Yugoslav, are offended, and some even outraged by the others' proprietary stamp. If you want something to work, keep it simple. Macedonia. Taiwan, R.O.C. Don't complicate things. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 03:21:42PM +0800, Katipo wrote: Bruce Miller wrote: Joey Hess was on the mark to criticize members of this list for rising to flamebait. This far exceeds flamebait. It is a serious issue. I, myself, feel that we should have all been advised of this. Que? If you're interested in something, subscribe to the *relevant* mailing list. Nobody in Debian has an obligation to personally knock on your door and advise you of everything. Bye, -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Weaver writes: Taiwan, R.O.C. Just Taiwan. -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler) Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Colin Watson wrote: On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 03:21:42PM +0800, Katipo wrote: Bruce Miller wrote: Joey Hess was on the mark to criticize members of this list for rising to flamebait. This far exceeds flamebait. It is a serious issue. I, myself, feel that we should have all been advised of this. Que? If you're interested in something, subscribe to the *relevant* mailing list. Subscribe to all of them so that nothing slips through? I followed the link to the *relevant* mailing list, and made note of the *relevant* illogical inconsistency in another post. Nobody in Debian has an obligation to personally knock on your door and advise you of everything. Where and when was that requested? Do I have to overly stress the word *ALL* so that it isn't ignored completely in the mad scramble for philosophy of convenience? I love the way in which some people quote out of context, and conveniently disregard the rest. The emphatic statement hidden in the silent omission. Bye, -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Bruce Miller writes: International technical fora are adamant that they discuss only technical issues and leave politics to the politicians. If that were true the subject of this discussion would not exist. The International Standards Organizations operates by consensus. The flip-side of consensus is that everyone has a veto. Wrong. Taiwan not only has no veto, it has no vote. The ISO standard would not have happened without the 100% agreement of the United States Government. Many things would not have happened without the 100% agreement of the United States Government. So what? Far be it from any of us outside the USA to criticize the right of Americans to criticize their government's policy, or for any other nationality to criticize its government's policy, but an international technical forum is not the place to do it. We are not discussing government policy. We are discussing Debian policy. It is perfectly reasonable of Debian to adopt an international standard. It raises Debian above the debate which is taking place here. Adopting an international standard that includes a gratuitous political statement is an endorsement of that statement. The added clause serves no technical purpose. Throw it out. -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler) Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 08:02:31 -0500 John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Adopting an international standard that includes a gratuitous political statement is an endorsement of that statement. The added clause serves no technical purpose. Throw it out. *plonk* -- Chris Metzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (remove snip-me. to email) As a child I understood how to give; I have forgotten this grace since I have become civilized. - Chief Luther Standing Bear pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
At 2004-04-05T07:21:42Z, Katipo [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To be placed in the position of taking a political stance, without prior knowledge and consultation is odious. Let's try this from the other direction. ISO says that Taiwan's name is really Taiwain, R.O.C.. If Debian accepts every other ISO name from that list, but rejects Taiwan, R.O.C., isn't *that* also a political stance? Namely, that Debian is officially protesting ISO's description of Taiwan as a R.O.C.? So, would you suggest taking this stance without informing and consulting the rest of the Debian users who have no opinion on Taiwan's sovereign status? -- Kirk Strauser In Googlis non est, ergo non est. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 11:52:43AM +0900, Miles Bader wrote: Anyone with half a brain can see what moronic thing the `Taiwan, Province of China' is. It's the _only_ `editorial comment' in the entire list (all other comma-separated entries are simple prefixes which when used result in each country's full official name; the Taiwan entry doesn't really fit). snip There's a solution which angers no one except those who have already have abused the process: just keep `Taiwan'. Debian can even make a standard if they want: editorial comments will be deleted. Thus in the future, if Israel and Iran get tagged as `Israel, illegitimate zionist running dogs', and `Iran, dictatorship of evil' (and given the horse-trading that these standards reflect, I wouldn't be at all surprised), Debian's course will be clear. What Miles says is the Right Thing. Standards can be abused. There are many standards. With the name Taiwan anyone can find the intended land mass on a map of the Earth, and can infer what language setting are to be used. -- Mike Moving forward in pushing back the envelope of the corporate paradigm. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Kirk Strauser writes: ISO says that Taiwan's name is really Taiwain, R.O.C.. If Debian accepts every other ISO name from that list, but rejects Taiwan, R.O.C., isn't *that* also a political stance? Taiwan, Republic of China is as much a political statement as is Taiwan, Province of China. Taiwan is just a place name. So, would you suggest taking this stance without informing and consulting the rest of the Debian users who have no opinion on Taiwan's sovereign status? I note that you refer to the place as simply Taiwan. Why shouldn't Debian do likewise? -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler) Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
At 2004-04-05T15:12:28Z, John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Taiwan, Republic of China is as much a political statement as is Taiwan, Province of China. Taiwan is just a place name. ...and a political statement that you don't recognize China's claim. Again, I have no stance on the issue, so I am not disagreeing with your beliefs in this matter. However, your opinion is just as political as the opposing view. I note that you refer to the place as simply Taiwan. Why shouldn't Debian do likewise? I am not an authority on the matter, and my naming of an entity isn't a good enough reason to declare it a fact. I typically refer to the name of my country as America, but that's not its official name. Frankly, I don't think that it's Debian's place to take the political stance that it disagrees with the name that one particular standards organization has given a geographical reason, particularly since it does accept the other assigned names from that list. -- Kirk Strauser In Googlis non est, ergo non est. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
I wrote: Taiwan, Republic of China is as much a political statement as is Taiwan, Province of China. Taiwan is just a place name. Kirk Strauser writes: ...and a political statement that you don't recognize China's claim. Taiwan, Republic of China is a political statement that you don't recognize China's claim. Taiwan is neutral. Failure to parrot the Chinese government's political statement is not opposing it: it's ignoring it. I am not an authority on the matter, and my naming of an entity isn't a good enough reason to declare it a fact. I typically refer to the name of my country as America, but that's not its official name. Why does official matter? Taiwan is unambiguous and universally understood. Frankly, I don't think that it's Debian's place to take the political stance that it disagrees with the name that one particular standards organization has given a geographical [region]... That standards organization is a political organization which has assigned that name for a political purpose. Debian need not further that purpose. ...particularly since it does accept the other assigned names from that list. The other names are reasonable. -- John Hasler You may treat this work as if it [EMAIL PROTECTED] were in the public domain. Dancing Horse HillI waive all rights. Elmwood, Wisconsin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
At 2004-04-05T16:18:47Z, John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Taiwan, Republic of China is a political statement that you don't recognize China's claim. I don't follow the Taiwan situation that closely, but don't you mean it the other way around? Taiwan is neutral. Failure to parrot the Chinese government's political statement is not opposing it: it's ignoring it. Same thing. Why does official matter? Taiwan is unambiguous and universally understood. OK, then I vote that we replace United States of America with America. It's also universally understood. You have to pick a name from somewhere, and Debian adopted the ISO list of country names. Either use it, or don't, but Debian should *not* just randomly pick the entries that it will use and replace the others at a whim for purely political reasons. And yes, choosing to disregard an established standard because you disagree with the politics of how it was established *is* a political decision. That standards organization is a political organization which has assigned that name for a political purpose. Debian need not further that purpose. Which standards organization would you accept as authoritative, then? Surely Debian isn't in the business of defining its own set of standards, is it? The other names are reasonable. I'm sure that at least a few people would disagree. -- Kirk Strauser In Googlis non est, ergo non est. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
I wrote: Taiwan, Republic of China is a political statement that you don't recognize China's claim. Kirk Strauser writes: I don't follow the Taiwan situation that closely, but don't you mean it the other way around? No. Republic of China comes from the days when the KMT ruled the island and pretended to be the rightful government of China. The Chinese government calls itself the People's Republic of China. OK, then I vote that we replace United States of America with America. It's also universally understood. America is ambiguous. United States of America is not a controversial political statement at variance with common usage. -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler) Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Miles Bader [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Think of it this way: It's a bug from upstream. The text in question certainly it is NOT a bug. Anyone with half a brain can see that. You think it is wrong only because you don't like it, even it is a standard. doesn't fit the format of the file, it's a lone exception added purelyfor selfish political reasons by a bully. Deleting it will make thefile more self-consistent.If a technical standard has a bug -- describes something hard orimpossible to implement, or extremely inconvenient for users -- theremay be grumbling and flamewars about it, but in many cases I would saydebian would err on the side of `reasonableness' over slavish adherenceto the standard (one possible example would be things affected by thePOSIX_ME_HARDER, er, I mean, POSIXLY_CORRECT environment variable).Is this particular part of the standard crucial for proper operation?E.g., will someone lookup stuff in that file using the exact countrydescription as an index? I don't know, but I'd say it's pretty unlikely-- much more probable is that they'll look for the country name (thepart preceding the comma), or use other fields as index to find thecountry name. Humans of course can cope either way.-Miles-- Is it true that nothing can be known? If so how do we know this? -Woody AllenDo you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Kirk Strauser wrote: At 2004-04-05T07:21:42Z, Katipo [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To be placed in the position of taking a political stance, without prior knowledge and consultation is odious. Let's try this from the other direction. ISO says that Taiwan's name is really Taiwain, R.O.C.. If Debian accepts every other ISO name from that list, but rejects Taiwan, R.O.C., isn't *that* also a political stance? Namely, that Debian is officially protesting ISO's description of Taiwan as a R.O.C.? I'm afraid you have confused something. Taiwan, R.O.C., which stands for Republic of China, is the appellation that the Taiwanese have chosen for themselves, and in no way interferes with the concept of self-determination. 'Province of China' on the other hand is a totally different proposition. It is the imposition of a political stamp applied by mainland China, a completely separate nation, who insist that Taiwan is part of greater China. By assuming this stance, and therefore endorsing it, Debians' position is itself compromised, and everybody associated with it. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
On Tue, Apr 06, 2004 at 06:05:27AM +0800, Katipo wrote: 'Province of China' on the other hand is a totally different proposition. It is the imposition of a political stamp applied by mainland China, a completely separate nation, who insist that Taiwan is part of greater China. By assuming this stance, and therefore endorsing it, Debians' position is itself compromised, and everybody associated with it. Regards, How do you express this with a C compiler? You don't. I suggest dropping Taiwan from the list entirely until they make up their minds. Software development is the wrong place to argue politics. (note, I *DO* have my own opinion on this matter, and it's probably not what you're guessing from my conservative approach here... but software development is the wrong place to argue these sorts of things so I keep my opinions to mailing lists which care about this topic!) -- Joe Rhett Chief Geek [EMAIL PROTECTED] Isite Services, Inc. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
At 2004-04-05T22:05:27Z, Katipo [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm afraid you have confused something. Taiwan, R.O.C., which stands for Republic of China, [...] 'Province of China' on the other hand is a totally different proposition. You're right. I thought that ROC was the label that *China* had applied to Taiwan. Please substitute PoC for ROC in my previous statements. By assuming this stance, and therefore endorsing it, Debians' position is itself compromised, and everybody associated with it. By assuming the stance that Debian is uniquely ignoring one single line of an ISO spec to endorse the position that Taiwan is advocating, then Debian's position is itself compromised, and everybody associated with it. Seriously, if enough people don't like the ISO list, then pick another officially recognized list to use. *Anything* else is choosing political sides. I keep hearing that Debian should avoid taking sides by taking Taiwan's side, and I just don't get it. Followup to /dev/null, it appears that this conversation is hopelessly deadlocked. -- Kirk Strauser In Googlis non est, ergo non est. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Yea, verily, I say unto you that on this date (Sun, 04 Apr 2004 22:54:01 -0500) dircha [EMAIL PROTECTED] didst appear within my Magick Viewing Screen and, being somewhat pleasantly supplicatory, did polemicize thusly: I protest. It is not perfectly reasonable. This is not a political issue for me... snip rehash While I agree with your stance I feel that I must point out that when you /take/ a stance on a political issue, it /is/ a political issue for you. Later in your post you say, Its sole purpose is to convey a political statement... Therefore, in order for you to be so adamantly opposed, it's a political issue for you. Cybe R. Wizard -still, one with which I agree -- Unofficial Wizard of Odds, A.H.P. Original PORG Water Wizard, R.P. Wize(ned) Wizard, A.P.F-P-Y. Barely Tolerated Wizard, A.J.L A.A.L -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Joe Rhett writes: I suggest dropping Taiwan from the list entirely until they make up their minds. What makes you think the Taiwanese have not made up their minds? -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler) Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
I'm not even going to dignify this with a reply other than Who cares? Nobody on the debian list, while reading the debian list. They might care when reading another list, but this offtopic crap. On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 05:49:40PM -0500, John Hasler wrote: Joe Rhett writes: I suggest dropping Taiwan from the list entirely until they make up their minds. What makes you think the Taiwanese have not made up their minds? -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler) Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Joe Rhett Chief Geek [EMAIL PROTECTED] Isite Services, Inc. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
On Sun, Apr 04, 2004 at 07:28:49PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote: We have both. We are inclusive. Inclusive is PC. PC is good. No, PC is a box of kludges that has managed to dominate the market by being inclusive. The original Mac was much saner and had a nicer processor but was too exclusive, so it lost out. Bummer. Debian, of course, supports loads of different architectures. :-) -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Anthony Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: certainly it is NOT a bug. Anyone with half a brain can see that. So how do you justify the brokenness of the Taiwan entry -- which unlike every other entry, doesn't properly yield the name of the country? Can you? [BTW, you included my entire message, but failed to use any quoting, which makes it very hard to read your reply. Oh wait, you're posting in mixed html; gah, don't do that...] -Miles -- Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it. Mahatma Gandhi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
On Sun, Apr 04, 2004 at 07:28:49PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote: Given what I understand of the politics and history of Taiwan/China, I think it is unlikely that the two use the same language *in every detail*. Particularly, I doubt that their usage of technical language jargon is the same. I'm just a naïve gaijin[1], but I'm not sure you're right about that. Written zh_CN and zh_TW look very similar to Western eyes. I've seen a comparison of the two in some Sun documentation, and they really just looked like the exact same glyphs in two different fonts. Like look at English lettering in bold versus normal weight. (Not *exactly* like that, but close). Sun Microsystems has a lot of expertise in this area. We have nothing to gain by taking sides political conflicts like this. The Debian OS can be customized by regional interests if needed. Beijing and Taipei can each make their own politically-correct forks of Debian if they need to, deleting offensive nomenclature about the other country. Similarly, Kurds in Iraq or Turkey may create Kurdistan GNU/Linux, to the irritation of the Turkish government and the U.S. occupation force in Iraq. Chechen rebels or Basque separatists could fork Debian, too. IMO, we should neither try to take a strong position on these politically explosive issues, nor should we try to walk on eggshells. I think we should take a similar approach as we do to package management. If we have developer(s) willing to vouch for legitimacy of a locale, and willing to maintain support for it, we should include it. If some governmental interest needs to bowdlerize our distribution to satisify their political sensibilities, they can go ahead. I think it says a lot about Debian success that we've come as far as we have -- we're a long way from worrying about fortunes-off and the Purity Test. Now we're worried about pissing off governments. :) If any Chinese would like to offer me some education on this subject in private mail, please feel free. I have read the Wikipedia article on the Republic of China[3] already, though. [1] Yes, I know that's not a Chinese word. [2] At the same time, from my modest knowledge of Chinese history since 1949, it's hard to find neutral terminology. Neutral terms about this issue seem to get perverted over time into euphemisms for either unificiation or independence, and then become political footballs. [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China -- G. Branden Robinson|I reverse the phrase of Voltaire, Debian GNU/Linux |and say that if God really existed, [EMAIL PROTECTED] |it would be necessary to abolish http://people.debian.org/~branden/ |him. -- Mikhail Bakunin signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Claus Färber) writes: BTW, there are a lot of other names from ISO 3166 that IMO should be changed for everyday use: Short name contains unnecessary parts from the full official name (probably for political hyper-correctness): IRAN, ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF;IR= IRAN LAO PEOPLE'S DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC;LA = LAOS MICRONESIA, FEDERATED STATES OF;FM = MICRONESIA MOLDOVA, REPUBLIC OF;MD = MOLDOVA TANZANIA, UNITED REPUBLIC OF;TZ = TANZANIA In all of these cases, a consistent form is followed: The part after the comma forms a proper prefix of the `common' name, and when used gives you the country's self-declared official name; taking the part before the comma gives you the common name[1]. This makes automatic processing easy. Removing the part after the comma from the database for the above countries yields no benefit. It's only Taiwan that's weird, because (1) the resulting long name isn't a real name at all, but the rather awkward construct: Province of China Taiwan and obviously (2) that isn't the self-declared name of the country[2]. A different short name is more common (again, the UN name was probably chosen for political correctness): KOREA, DEMOCRATIC PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF;KP = KOREA, NORTH KOREA, REPUBLIC OF;KR = KOREA, SOUTH These names are[3] those chosen by the respective countries -- _that_ is something I thing ought to be respected (so if Taiwan were to suddenly start calling itself [in English] `Province of China Taiwan', well then the argument is over I guess :-). [1] The exceptions seem to be Laos, where the most common english name used isn't present, and perhaps North/South Korea, as discussed above. [2] Which as far as I can figure is Republic of China (Taiwan); I'm not sure how one would actually fit this into the comma-separated-prefix scheme... :-/ [3] Again, as far as I can figure -Miles -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
On Sun, 2004-04-04 at 16:25, Dan Jacobson wrote: Why why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China? Why can't it just stick with a neutral Taiwan. Why single out a geographical name and append a political statement to it? Sticks out and looks kind of silly. Who cares what the two governments' official names for Taiwan are. Why thrust Debian into politics, where there was no big problem before? Anything more neutral than just Taiwan? I'm all ears. Oh great, poison energetic free software enthusiasts with politics. How am I going to explain to folks here in Taiwan that that is just a superficial or temporary part of Debian, or doesn't represent the view of all of Debian? Oh great, just after we moved everybody over from Redhat because of the flag issue. If you look at the debian-boot thread in question, you'll see that the reason is because of standards. The problem is that we have to use some STANDARDIZED source of country names. In this case, ISO-3166. That's a list of short country names as specified by the UN. (short is rather a joke in the case of many country names in the list) According to the UN listing, the country name of the location called Taiwan, is Taiwan, Province of China. Pretty much every argument that is likely to be brought up here because of this has ALREADY been discussed on debian-boot, so I'd suggest people take a look at that thread first to prevent duplicate discussions. http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2004/debian-boot-200404/msg00284.html Note that none of the above is a statement of my personal beliefs or opinions on the issue, but just a statement of facts that have already been presented elsewhere. I would much rather focus on free software than politics myself. :) -- Alex Malinovich Support Free Software, delete your Windows partition TODAY! Encrypted mail preferred. You can get my public key from any of the pgp.net keyservers. Key ID: A6D24837 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Alex Malinovich writes: The problem is that we have to use some STANDARDIZED source of country names. Why? According to the UN listing, the country name of the location called Taiwan, is Taiwan, Province of China. Screw the UN. Shorten it to Taiwan. -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler) Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
John Hasler wrote: The problem is that we have to use some STANDARDIZED source of country names. Why? First, the purpose of Debian in selecting and presenting a locale name is not to make a political statement or political value judgment. What is the purpose of Debian in selecting and presenting a locale name? The purpose is to best facilitate the selection of the appropriate locale by those who may need to select it. In this case, both Taiwan and Taiwan, Province of China are adequate to this purpose. But what additional information does, Province of China convey? Does it serve to disambiguate between two otherwise ambiguous locales? What then, is a Province, and what does it mean to be a Province of? Of the definitions before me, the gist of those most plausible in this context is that it is to stand in a relation of a part to a whole in which the latter has political authority over the former. Unless for those who may need to make an unambiguous locale selection there is a legitimate disambiguating purpose served by appending, Province of China, then it is clear that the sole informative effect of appending Province of China is to express that Taiwan stands in a relation of political authority to China, in which the latter has political authority over the former. No legitimate disambiguating purpose is served by appending Province of China. Possibly in the case that there are two distinct locales possibly referred to as Taiwan, one which is a province of China and one which is not a province of China, there may be a legitimate disambiguating purpose served. But this is not the case. In this case, both Taiwan and Taiwan, Province of China as commonly employed do not refer to distinct locales, or even distinct geographic locations. When I say Taiwan in the context of a locale, no one is confused as to what I refer. The only informative effect of appending Province of China, therefore, is to convey information about a political relation. Conveying information of this political relation does not legitimately serve the purpose of selecting a locale - a currency, encoding, etc. Texas, State of the Union. India, colony of the Royal British Empire. (or whatever was the historically accurate term; you get the idea). According to the UN listing, the country name of the location called Taiwan, is Taiwan, Province of China. Screw the UN. Shorten it to Taiwan. This doesn't need to be a political choice at all. dircha -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Joey Hess was on the mark to criticize members of this list for rising to flamebait. International technical fora are adamant that they discuss only technical issues and leave politics to the politicians. To help this international technical forum --- a mailing list about an operating system --- to do the same, let us remember what the politicians of the national government of most of the participants in this debate have done on this issue: The International Standards Organizations operates by consensus. The flip-side of consensus is that everyone has a veto. The ISO standard would not have happened without the 100% agreement of the United States Government. The United Nations' usage is one which the United States Government agreed to of its own free will over 30 years ago and from which no subsequent Administration, neither Republican nor Democratic, has wavered since. Far be it from any of us outside the USA to criticize the right of Americans to criticize their government's policy, or for any other nationality to criticize its government's policy, but an international technical forum is not the place to do it. It is perfectly reasonable of Debian to adopt an international standard. It raises Debian above the debate which is taking place here. - -- Bruce Miller Ottawa, ON K1M 2H9 CANADA GPG key ID 0x1B9200FC. Public key available from keyservers -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAcNsUEWQpHhuSAPwRAmaMAKCQe6YckvrpDP0DYF9SlzD3SHABzQCg05Er FV/FbMIyNHgXjtlzBcoDSfc= =LEgx -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Bruce Miller wrote: It is perfectly reasonable of Debian to adopt an international standard. It raises Debian above the debate which is taking place here. I protest. It is not perfectly reasonable. This is not a political issue for me. I have no established opinion as to whether or not Taiwan is properly a Province of China. Debian does not obtain neutrality by selecting an existing political compromise and simply saying, That's it, we don't want to get involved. Simply saying something does not make it so. As I explained at length, Province of China serves no legitimate purpose in the selection of a locale. Its sole purpose is to convey a political statement (a relation of political authority of a part to a whole) beyond this single purpose, a statement which is highly controversial. Debian can not hide behind it is a standard. As I have thoroughly explained previously, selecting Taiwan, Province of China is a choice (a selection made without necessity), and is not a choice warranted by any practical consideration. The perfectly reasonable option is to remove the political commentary, Province of China and to stop hiding behind it is a standard, an appeal to authority, as if that could legitimize the inclusion of an assertion of a political relation, where there ought not to be one. Even now, selecting Taiwan is not to select, not Province of China. Rather, it is to de-politicize the statement altogether. Taiwan does not mean, Taiwan, not Province of China. It is neutral on the issue. Publications around the world and in China itself employ Taiwan independently of Taiwan, Province of China. Neither is the act itself of now removing Province of China a political act. It is an act by a party that wishes to remain neutral to de-politicize the a representation of a locale. Further, no practical value is lost by de-politicizing this representation, for Province of China served no practical or non-political end to begin with. dircha -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Why why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China? Why can't it just stick with a neutral Taiwan. Why single out a geographical name and append a political statement to it? Sticks out and looks kind of silly. Who cares what the two governments' official names for Taiwan are. Why thrust Debian into politics, where there was no big problem before? Anything more neutral than just Taiwan? I'm all ears. Oh great, poison energetic free software enthusiasts with politics. How am I going to explain to folks here in Taiwan that that is just a superficial or temporary part of Debian, or doesn't represent the view of all of Debian? Oh great, just after we moved everybody over from Redhat because of the flag issue. Anyway, my buddy Andrew Lee sent me this for me to proofread, but instead I felt I'll just post it more widely for him, (naturally before researching the issue further :-)) Hi Dan, I don't know have you heard about the Debian-installer use China replace Taiwan for the menu of language chooser, I felt it's such a Discrimination Against us. Here I want to speak up on the Debian list, before I speak up, I hope you can readjust my point of view to be more fairly to both side. Thanks in advance. Here is the mail: Hi Herbert Xu, I read your message from: http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2004/debian-boot-200404/msg00342.html Please do not say it'd be much better if you didn't use Debian at all to anybody. Debian is a free software and it is likely everyone can use it with freedom. It would be in doubt if Debian is not allowed to be use at all. As we all in the group of Debian developer and understand how it was been use for all this days. Debian is free for everyone, and it should be No Discrimination Against Persons or Groups. I respect you are a Debian developer, but I am wishing you have same equally respect to other Debian users, contributers and developers. However, there is no rules against us to continue us using Debian software for such uncertain law. I heard of that Debian-installer choose a list of ISO-3166 codes for list contry names during installation, I felt the decision are quite wrong, even you guys calling it's most official and don't want to face to the truth, the truth are always still only one there. My dad and my mum are both migrate from mainland China a half century ago, and I was born in Taiwan, and I am living in Taiwan, my country is officially naming Republic of China however it was and however it will, I can not change it myself how could you a foreigner do? [ Taiwan Linux Users Group ] Andrew Leehttp://wiki.debian.org.tw Winkler Partners http://www.winklerpartners.com My [EMAIL PROTECTED]: +886 2 2311 2345cell: +886 968749 055 Wild at Heart Legal Defense Association http://ecosophy.org More from me, Dan Jacobson: next thing you know, we'll need a non-China in addition to non-US. I'm big on standards: http://jidanni.org/lang/pinyin/ , but what if Debian appended statements to each land like that? What, will Debian lose some contracts? Maybe there could be a political-correctness package that could adjust Debian for use in each country as needed. But apparently they are talking about names one sees before even installing. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Dan Jacobson writes: Why why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China? Why can't it just stick with a neutral Taiwan. No reason I can think of. -- John Hasler You may treat this work as if it [EMAIL PROTECTED] were in the public domain. Dancing Horse HillI waive all rights. Elmwood, Wisconsin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Dan Jacobson wrote: Why why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China? If this is true, it is an gross understatement to call it a political faux pas. The chinese nationalist movement left China and took over Taiwan (Formosa) during the red campaign. To remove all 'face' from them in this rude, ignorant, arrogant manner, virtually ensures that Debian never establishes itself in Taiwan. This is not over statement, this is how it is seen from the perspective of the chinese mentality. Mainland China persists in labeling Taiwan as 'Taiwan Province,' but I see no good reason as to why Debian needs to become involved in this aspect. To censure an entire country in this manner, and in doing so isolate them, would appear to be the anti-thesis of open source. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Please don't crosspost flamebait to multiple debian mailing lists. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 08:04:23AM +0800, Katipo wrote: Dan Jacobson wrote: Why why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China? [snip] Three thoughts: 1. The UN is not the final arbiter of names of political entities. e.g. except for US veto, Isreal would have ceased to have standing long ago. 2. Mainland China needs OpenSource more thant OpenSource needs mainland China. 3. Catalan is not the official language of a member state of the UN, but it is a language that is supported in Debian. I conclude that language and sovereign country is not a unique one-to-one mapping. Given what I understand of the politics and history of Taiwan/China, I think it is unlikely that the two use the same language *in every detail*. Particularly, I doubt that their usage of technical language jargon is the same. If Debian has a Chinese language version for which the final arbiter of language usage is a Mainlander, the name in Debian should also be of that person's choosing. If the final arbiter is a resident/citizen of Taiwan, his(her) choise of name should also apply. If we have both, good. We have both. We are inclusive. Inclusive is PC. PC is good. Just my 2cents. -- Paul E Condon [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Incoming from Paul E Condon: We have both. We are inclusive. Inclusive is PC. PC is good. ...^^ Please, don't drag that into this. This was a fairly civilized discussion before that happened. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling - - -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
--- Dan Jacobson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China? Why can't it just stick with a neutral Taiwan. Why single out a geographical name and append a political statement to it? Sticks out and looks kind of silly. Debian cannot win this argument and should not participate in it. We have to choose names from some standards body somewhere, and no matter what we do somebody will disagree. Why thrust Debian into politics, where there was no big problem It is people like you who thrust Debian into politics, even not enough in debian-boot. Yes, you love living in China Taiwan. Will you stand on the other side when you live in China mainland? __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
On Sun, Apr 04, 2004 at 07:28:49PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote: same. If Debian has a Chinese language version for which the final arbiter of language usage is a Mainlander, the name in Debian should also be of that person's choosing. If the final arbiter is a resident/citizen of Here's a wacky, and probably distasteful, but pragmatic suggestion: Use whatever name Microsoft used for Taiwan in Windows Server 2003. As a former employee I know Microsoft has an entire wing of the internalization superstructure devoted to hunting and killing politically sensitive terms, in PARTICULAR the Taiwan/China issue. They have a tool called PoliticsCheck or something which scans code blocks looking for sensitive terms. The reason I would suggesting just blindly imitating them is they have professionals who spent 40 hours a week all year long investigating this, and they are super DUPER scared of being sued, so you can bet they at least have an acceptable solution. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Anthony Johnson writes: We have to choose names from some standards body somewhere... The standards body in question is the UN, which has labeled the place Taiwan, a province of China for purely political purposes. In normal conversation the place is referred to simply as Taiwan. Tacking on a province of China is making a political statement. There is no non-political reason to do it. Yes, you love living in China Taiwan. Will you stand on the other side when you live in China mainland? The people who live on the island call it Taiwan. What's wrong with using the name they choose? -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler) Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China?
Anthony Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why why must Debian call Taiwan a Province of China? Why can't it just stick with a neutral Taiwan. Why single out a geographical name and append a political statement to it? Sticks out and looks kind of silly. Debian cannot win this argument and should not participate in it. We have to choose names from some standards body somewhere, and no matter what we do somebody will disagree. Anyone with half a brain can see what moronic thing the `Taiwan, Province of China' is. It's the _only_ `editorial comment' in the entire list (all other comma-separated entries are simple prefixes which when used result in each country's full official name; the Taiwan entry doesn't really fit). It's clear that the PRC threw its weight around, threw a tantrum, whatever, to get this kind of crap embedded in a standard, as unnecessary and awkward as it is. There's a solution which angers no one except those who have already have abused the process: just keep `Taiwan'. Debian can even make a standard if they want: editorial comments will be deleted. Thus in the future, if Israel and Iran get tagged as `Israel, illegitimate zionist running dogs', and `Iran, dictatorship of evil' (and given the horse-trading that these standards reflect, I wouldn't be at all surprised), Debian's course will be clear. Why thrust Debian into politics, where there was no big problem It is people like you who thrust Debian into politics, even not enough in debian-boot. Yes, you love living in China Taiwan. Will you stand on the other side when you live in China mainland? Debian shouldn't _make_ editorial comments like this, but they shouldn't dumbly stand by and mirror those made by others with fewer scruples. -Miles -- Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. -- Jerry Garcia -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
