Re: Proposed ballot for the GR: Deciding on the effect of GR 2004_003
On Mon, 17 May 2004 09:56:52 +0200, Michael Banck [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Sun, May 16, 2004 at 10:32:50PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: It is belabouring the obvious. How can anyone think that 40 characters is the full text of the proposal? And are there really debian developers who do not understand this? Yeah, let's just try it out. Three's a charm anyway, right? Oh, I think at some point people would be ashamed of their lack of due diligence, and stop making everyone else work harder to redo their own lack of a modicum of effort to educate themselves on issues that rate a GR. On the other hand, I may be massively underestimating the gall. manoj -- The IBM purchase of ROLM gives new meaning to the term twisted pair. Howard Anderson, Yankee Group Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Proposed ballot for the GR: Deciding on the effect of GR 2004_003
On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 03:02:10PM +0100, Andrew Suffield wrote: I think we got into this mess because of a sudden and unanticipated bout of morality on the part of the release manager. Andrew, go fuck yourself. If you want to say that I've been acting immorally up until last month, have the guts to say it outright, rather than snide little remarks like the above. Regards, aj -- Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/ Don't assume I speak for anyone but myself. GPG signed mail preferred. ``Like the ski resort of girls looking for husbands and husbands looking for girls, the situation is not as symmetrical as it might seem.'' signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Proposed ballot for the GR: Deciding on the effect of GR 2004_003
On Sun, May 16, 2004 at 10:32:50PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: It is belabouring the obvious. How can anyone think that 40 characters is the full text of the proposal? And are there really debian developers who do not understand this? Yeah, let's just try it out. Three's a charm anyway, right? Michael -- Michael Banck Debian Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.advogato.org/person/mbanck/diary.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Proposed ballot for the GR: Deciding on the effect of GR 2004_003
On Sun, May 16, 2004 at 10:42:07PM -0400, Duncan Findlay wrote: Why do developers have to be told this? In theory, they don't. In theory, the options on the ballot are self-explanatory, and developers should know where to find more information. However, in practice, it is clear that developers often don't take care to inform themselves adequately before voting (how do you think we got in this mess in the first place?) I think we got into this mess because of a sudden and unanticipated bout of morality on the part of the release manager. I think that responding to a result you didn't like with anything that reduces to Oh, they didn't really *mean* that rather speaks for itself. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Proposed ballot for the GR: Deciding on the effect of GR 2004_003
On Sat, 15 May 2004 01:27:13 +0200, Osamu Aoki [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Is there any reason why choices are indexed as 1,2,3,... while the proposal themselves are always indexed as A,B,C,... on vote.debian.org. Just curious and somewhat confused. Apart from the fact that devotee kinda wants the choices to be numerical, there is also merit in decoupling the order on the web page to the order on the ballot (in the past, we have randomized ballots for impartiality). Since my draft does not change the order, this should not be an issue, neh? manoj -- He who laughs has not yet heard the bad news. Bertolt Brecht Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Proposed ballot for the GR: Deciding on the effect of GR 2004_003
On 15 May 2004 21:11:02 +0100, Henning Makholm [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Scripsit Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] The details of the general resolution can be found at: http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_004 I think this reference is too weak. The link should jump out and bite any hypothetical reader who has been vacationing on a desert island for the last month. How about: Any such DD should be actively looking to educate themselves before exercising their franchise. The full texts of the proposals being voted on can be found on http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_004 They have been been omitted here due to their (combined) length. Please go to the above URL and read the actual proposals before voting. Why do developers have to be told this? manoj -- While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping, As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. Edgar Allan Poe, The Raven [Quoted in VMS Internals and Data Structures, V4.4, when referring to hardware interrupts.] And now I see with eye serene The very pulse of the machine. William Wordsworth, She Was a Phantom of Delight [Quoted in VMS Internals and Data Structures, V4.4, when referring to software interrupts.] Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Proposed ballot for the GR: Deciding on the effect of GR 2004_003
On Sun, May 16, 2004 at 10:25:34AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Sat, 15 May 2004 01:27:13 +0200, Osamu Aoki [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Is there any reason why choices are indexed as 1,2,3,... while the proposal themselves are always indexed as A,B,C,... on vote.debian.org. Just curious and somewhat confused. Apart from the fact that devotee kinda wants the choices to be numerical, there is also merit in decoupling the order on the web page to the order on the ballot (in the past, we have randomized ballots for impartiality). Since my draft does not change the order, this should not be an issue, neh? Not a problem for me. (Henning answered my curiosity. Thanks.) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Proposed ballot for the GR: Deciding on the effect of GR 2004_003
On Sun, May 16, 2004 at 10:27:49AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On 15 May 2004 21:11:02 +0100, Henning Makholm [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Scripsit Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] The details of the general resolution can be found at: http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_004 I think this reference is too weak. The link should jump out and bite any hypothetical reader who has been vacationing on a desert island for the last month. How about: Any such DD should be actively looking to educate themselves before exercising their franchise. True. However, is there any problem with trying to make this stand out? The full texts of the proposals being voted on can be found on http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_004 They have been been omitted here due to their (combined) length. Please go to the above URL and read the actual proposals before voting. Why do developers have to be told this? Again, is there any problem making this verbose? -- gram -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Proposed ballot for the GR: Deciding on the effect of GR 2004_003
On Sun, May 16, 2004 at 10:27:49AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On 15 May 2004 21:11:02 +0100, Henning Makholm [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: The full texts of the proposals being voted on can be found on http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_004 They have been been omitted here due to their (combined) length. Please go to the above URL and read the actual proposals before voting. Why do developers have to be told this? Let me turn the question around. Is there any harm in doing this? Apart from that, yes, I think developers have to be told. Their curiosity has to be tickled, to avoid that people who aren't really interested just say oh, postponing doesn't sound really good, because I want to release now. Let's not postpone. Having more information is a good thing; and while I could understand reasoning for not wanting the full rationales in this mail, I second that the ballot should either contain those full rationales, or verbosely say it doesn't. -- EARTH smog | bricks AIR -- mud -- FIRE soda water | tequila WATER -- with thanks to fortune signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Proposed ballot for the GR: Deciding on the effect of GR 2004_003
On Sun, 16 May 2004 13:22:20 -0500, Graham Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Sun, May 16, 2004 at 10:27:49AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On 15 May 2004 21:11:02 +0100, Henning Makholm [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Scripsit Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] The details of the general resolution can be found at: http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_004 I think this reference is too weak. The link should jump out and bite any hypothetical reader who has been vacationing on a desert island for the last month. How about: Any such DD should be actively looking to educate themselves before exercising their franchise. True. However, is there any problem with trying to make this stand out? Seems like it already stands out: anyone paying the least bit of attention shall otice that there are no details in the ballot, and this URL is the only thing that points to where one may get more information. manoj -- The best that we can do is to be kindly and helpful toward our friends and fellow passengers who are clinging to the same speck of dirt while we are drifting side by side to our common doom. Clarence Darrow Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Proposed ballot for the GR: Deciding on the effect of GR 2004_003
On Sun, May 16, 2004 at 06:03:34PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Sun, 16 May 2004 22:09:01 +0200, Wouter Verhelst [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Sun, May 16, 2004 at 10:27:49AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On 15 May 2004 21:11:02 +0100, Henning Makholm [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: The full texts of the proposals being voted on can be found on http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_004 They have been been omitted here due to their (combined) length. Please go to the above URL and read the actual proposals before voting. Why do developers have to be told this? Let me turn the question around. Is there any harm in doing this? Perhaps. Perhaps there is harm in noting that the full text of the proposals have been left out, and is available on the web? What harm is that? -- gram -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Proposed ballot for the GR: Deciding on the effect of GR 2004_003
On Sun, May 16, 2004 at 06:03:34PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Sun, 16 May 2004 22:09:01 +0200, Wouter Verhelst [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Sun, May 16, 2004 at 10:27:49AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On 15 May 2004 21:11:02 +0100, Henning Makholm [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: The full texts of the proposals being voted on can be found on http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_004 They have been been omitted here due to their (combined) length. Please go to the above URL and read the actual proposals before voting. Why do developers have to be told this? In theory, they don't. In theory, the options on the ballot are self-explanatory, and developers should know where to find more information. However, in practice, it is clear that developers often don't take care to inform themselves adequately before voting (how do you think we got in this mess in the first place?) Let me turn the question around. Is there any harm in doing this? Perhaps. Excuse me. What??!!?!?? There is harm in reminding developers how to inform themselves before voting??? You claim to want an informed electorate yet you object to making it more obvious how to inform themselves? Apart from that, yes, I think developers have to be told. Their curiosity has to be tickled, to avoid that people who aren't really interested just say oh, postponing doesn't sound really good, because I want to release now. Let's not postpone. Having more The point of this exercise is not to count as many uninformed hands as possible. The point is to get a measure of a reasoned decision from an informed electorate -- I can use srand to generate random votes quite easily. So, what you are saying is that in order to have more informed votes, we should make it less clear to voters how to become informed. That's nonsense. Instead of getting more informed voters, you will get more people voting based on the one line summaries listed. Furthermore, this may be a bias against new developers who are a little unfamiliar with the way votes work. Are you trying to say that their opinion is irrelevant? That they shouldn't get a vote? information is a good thing; and while I could understand reasoning for not wanting the full rationales in this mail, I second that the ballot should either contain those full rationales, or verbosely say it doesn't. I am not sure I want the input from people who can't immediately determine that the actual contents of the GR were not on the ballot. Debian is not about mindless participation; we are trying, after all, to create the best possible distribution; and GR's represent the most significant collective decisions we make as a body. I am not sure that spoon feeding people and coaxing them, like pup[pies, tocome to the polling station is the best thing to do. As project Secretary, you are obliged to take into account the will of _all_ Debian developers, regardless of how competent *you* feel they are. In my eyes, statements like this undermine your suitability to be Secretary. It certainly isn't unlikely that a (fully competent) developer, a little pressed for time, misses the link and votes based on the summaries rather than the full proposals. Deliberately making the link less visible is similar to an attempt to mislead voters into thinking they are voting for something different than they really are. (Sound familiar anyone?) -- Duncan Findlay signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Proposed ballot for the GR: Deciding on the effect of GR 2004_003
On Sun, 16 May 2004 19:59:48 -0500, Graham Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Sun, May 16, 2004 at 06:03:34PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Sun, 16 May 2004 22:09:01 +0200, Wouter Verhelst [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Sun, May 16, 2004 at 10:27:49AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On 15 May 2004 21:11:02 +0100, Henning Makholm [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: The full texts of the proposals being voted on can be found on http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_004 They have been been omitted here due to their (combined) length. Please go to the above URL and read the actual proposals before voting. Why do developers have to be told this? Let me turn the question around. Is there any harm in doing this? Perhaps. Perhaps there is harm in noting that the full text of the proposals have been left out, and is available on the web? What harm is that? It is belabouring the obvious. How can anyone think that 40 characters is the full text of the proposal? And are there really debian developers who do not understand this? == The details of the general resolution can be found at: http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_004 == manoj -- The things to do are: the things that need doing: that /you/ see need to be done, and that no one else seems to see need to be done. Then you will conceive your own way of doing that which needs to be done -- that no one else has told you to do or how to do it. This will bring out the real you that often gets buried inside a character that has acquired a superficial array of behaviors induced or imposed by others on the individual. --- R. Buckminster Fuller Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Proposed ballot for the GR: Deciding on the effect of GR 2004_003
On Sun, 16 May 2004 22:42:07 -0400, Duncan Findlay [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Sun, May 16, 2004 at 06:03:34PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Sun, 16 May 2004 22:09:01 +0200, Wouter Verhelst [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Sun, May 16, 2004 at 10:27:49AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On 15 May 2004 21:11:02 +0100, Henning Makholm [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: The full texts of the proposals being voted on can be found on http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_004 They have been been omitted here due to their (combined) length. Please go to the above URL and read the actual proposals before voting. Why do developers have to be told this? In theory, they don't. In theory, the options on the ballot are self-explanatory, and developers should know where to find more information. However, in practice, it is clear that developers often don't take care to inform themselves adequately before voting (how do you think we got in this mess in the first place?) Let me turn the question around. Is there any harm in doing this? Perhaps. Excuse me. What??!!?!?? I see. Perhaps you can't read -- which kinda explains your view point. There is harm in reminding developers how to inform themselves before voting??? You claim to want an informed electorate yet you object to making it more obvious how to inform themselves? Shall I tell them to breathe in, breathe out, too? Or to make sure they eat? Or remind them they should generally sleep, perhaps once every 24 hours as well? Apart from that, yes, I think developers have to be told. Their curiosity has to be tickled, to avoid that people who aren't really interested just say oh, postponing doesn't sound really good, because I want to release now. Let's not postpone. Having more The point of this exercise is not to count as many uninformed hands as possible. The point is to get a measure of a reasoned decision from an informed electorate -- I can use srand to generate random votes quite easily. So, what you are saying is that in order to have more informed votes, we should make it less clear to voters how to become informed. That's nonsense. Instead of getting more informed voters, you will get more people voting based on the one line summaries listed. If there are people who find this less clear: == The details of the general resolution can be found at: http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_004 == Perhaps they should consider resigning. Furthermore, this may be a bias against new developers who are a little unfamiliar with the way votes work. Are you trying to say that their opinion is irrelevant? That they shouldn't get a vote? If they are not competent enough to follow the instructions above, hell yes. information is a good thing; and while I could understand reasoning for not wanting the full rationales in this mail, I second that the ballot should either contain those full rationales, or verbosely say it doesn't. I am not sure I want the input from people who can't immediately determine that the actual contents of the GR were not on the ballot. Debian is not about mindless participation; we are trying, after all, to create the best possible distribution; and GR's represent the most significant collective decisions we make as a body. I am not sure that spoon feeding people and coaxing them, like pup[pies, tocome to the polling station is the best thing to do. As project Secretary, you are obliged to take into account the will of _all_ Debian developers, regardless of how competent *you* feel they are. In my eyes, statements like this undermine your suitability to be Secretary. Bullshit. I am obligated to follow the constitution, and decide, as do all developers, what is best for the project. Pampering people who do not take time to do due diligence before voting is not something I plan on doing. It certainly isn't unlikely that a (fully competent) developer, a little pressed for time, misses the link and votes based on the summaries rather than the full proposals. Deliberately making the What fucking summaries? You really think that a 40 char title is a bloody summary of a GR proposal? And you would vote on something compressed into 40 chars? The mind boggles. link less visible is similar to an attempt to mislead voters into thinking they are voting for something different than they really are. (Sound familiar anyone?) Yes. Sounds like we are getting a lot of incompetent. lazy people itching to blame everyone else for their lack of due diligence. manoj -- You need more time; and you probably always will. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27
Re: Proposed ballot for the GR: Deciding on the effect of GR 2004_003
Hi folks, I think, (in a cooler vien), that one can't please everyone. I have looked at the issues raised, and it is my considered opinion that combined with the fact that the ballot only contains 40 char titles for each proposal, and has the following lines: == The details of the general resolution can be found at: http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_004 == it should be clear to any reasonable voter where information about the GR can be found. The vote page not only contains the text of the proposals, it also links in to ancilliary and supporting documents, and I think that this deep linking is important when considering the merits of each of the proposals. It would be difficult, if not impossible, to include that rich set of additional information on the ballot, so I have decided not to do a half hearted job. manoj -- Sic transit discus mundi From the System Administrator's Guide, by Lars Wirzenius Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Proposed ballot for the GR: Deciding on the effect of GR 2004_003
On Sun, May 16, 2004 at 10:38:32PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Sun, 16 May 2004 22:42:07 -0400, Duncan Findlay [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: There is harm in reminding developers how to inform themselves before voting??? You claim to want an informed electorate yet you object to making it more obvious how to inform themselves? Shall I tell them to breathe in, breathe out, too? Or to make sure they eat? Or remind them they should generally sleep, perhaps once every 24 hours as well? That's outside your portfolio as Secretary. If there are people who find this less clear: == The details of the general resolution can be found at: http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_004 == Perhaps they should consider resigning. Even if you add the 's, it stands out a lot more and is easier to notice when skimming through the otherwise boilerplate ballot. I don't see any reason to not implement Henning's suggestions. Sure, it is (or at least should be?) a little unnecessary, but it's not going to hurt. Furthermore, this may be a bias against new developers who are a little unfamiliar with the way votes work. Are you trying to say that their opinion is irrelevant? That they shouldn't get a vote? If they are not competent enough to follow the instructions above, hell yes. Do you read every word in everything ever put in front of you? Most of the ballot is pretty standard, so people are likely to skip over it. Making the link a little more obvious is a good thing. Bullshit. I am obligated to follow the constitution, and decide, as do all developers, what is best for the project. Pampering people who do not take time to do due diligence before voting is not something I plan on doing. Nobody said anything about pampering. We're talking about making a link a little more obvious. How could that possibly be a bad thing? What fucking summaries? You really think that a 40 char title is a bloody summary of a GR proposal? And you would vote on something compressed into 40 chars? The mind boggles. Personally, I wouldn't vote on a 40 character summary. But some might find the titles sufficiently self-explanatory. I don't see how encouraging people to read the full summaries is a bad thing. link less visible is similar to an attempt to mislead voters into thinking they are voting for something different than they really are. (Sound familiar anyone?) Yes. Sounds like we are getting a lot of incompetent. lazy people itching to blame everyone else for their lack of due diligence. Please, just make the link a little clearer and more obvious. Is that really too much to ask? I assume by sending out a draft, you were asking for suggestions on how to improve it (an incorrect assumption?). People have responded, and you have proceeded to jump all over these suggestions. -- Duncan Findlay signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Proposed ballot for the GR: Deciding on the effect of GR 2004_003
On Mon, 17 May 2004 00:02:26 -0400, Duncan Findlay [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Sun, May 16, 2004 at 10:38:32PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Sun, 16 May 2004 22:42:07 -0400, Duncan Findlay [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: If there are people who find this less clear: == The details of the general resolution can be found at: http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_004 == Perhaps they should consider resigning. Even if you add the 's, it stands out a lot more and is easier to notice when skimming through the otherwise boilerplate ballot. That seems reasonable. don't see any reason to not implement Henning's suggestions. Sure, it is (or at least should be?) a little unnecessary, but it's not going to hurt. The point is that you can't ever please every possible person. And there comes a time when the nit picking gets silly, as I think it has, in this case. Furthermore, this may be a bias against new developers who are a little unfamiliar with the way votes work. Are you trying to say that their opinion is irrelevant? That they shouldn't get a vote? If they are not competent enough to follow the instructions above, hell yes. Do you read every word in everything ever put in front of you? Most When it comes to a GR, yes. Note to the public: GR's are big deals. These are the most significant decisions that the developer community takes as a whole, and these can fundamentally change the very nature of the project. GR's that modify Foundation documents are even more critical; and you should not be skimming through the ballot. of the ballot is pretty standard, so people are likely to skip over it. Making the link a little more obvious is a good thing. And then they realize that they do not know what the ballot is all about, so they go back and read it. Really. Nobody said anything about pampering. We're talking about making a link a little more obvious. How could that possibly be a bad thing? Cause there will always be someone out there who wants a little bit more. A little more obvious. A little more spoon feeding. And when he material being spoon fed is not obvious enough, they have the gall to come back and call it deceptive practice and delibratelyt misleading. What fucking summaries? You really think that a 40 char title is a bloody summary of a GR proposal? And you would vote on something compressed into 40 chars? The mind boggles. Personally, I wouldn't vote on a 40 character summary. But some might find the titles sufficiently self-explanatory. I don't see how encouraging people to read the full summaries is a bad thing. I would rather trust in the sensibility of the developer body. You say you won't vote on a 40 char title, but you think so little of your fellow developers to believe they shall? link less visible is similar to an attempt to mislead voters into thinking they are voting for something different than they really are. (Sound familiar anyone?) Yes. Sounds like we are getting a lot of incompetent. lazy people itching to blame everyone else for their lack of due diligence. Please, just make the link a little clearer and more obvious. Is that really too much to ask? I assume by sending out a draft, you were asking for suggestions on how to improve it (an incorrect assumption?). People have responded, and you have proceeded to jump all over these suggestions. I listen to suggestion. I do not follow everyone. Adding gobs and gobs of disclaimers about the obvious is not, in my opinion, a reasonable suggestion. I may add a line of '='s around it, though. That did sound reasonable. manoj -- Once the toothpaste is out of the tube, it's hard to get it back in. H.R. Haldeman Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Proposed ballot for the GR: Deciding on the effect of GR 2004_003
Scripsit Osamu Aoki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is there any reason why choices are indexed as 1,2,3,... while the proposal themselves are always indexed as A,B,C,... on vote.debian.org. It turned out that the vote-tallying software has a hard-coded assumption that the options are identified by numbers. Easier and less risky to change the ballot than the software. I see that the overview on vote.debian.org now does say (choice N on the ballot) in the heading for each specific proposal text. I think it would be clearer if the entire A/B/C/D/E nomenclature had been replaced by numbers. But it's a minor point. -- Henning Makholm Jeg kunne ikke undgå at bemærke at han gik på hænder. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Proposed ballot for the GR: Deciding on the effect of GR 2004_003
Scripsit Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] The details of the general resolution can be found at: http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_004 I think this reference is too weak. The link should jump out and bite any hypothetical reader who has been vacationing on a desert island for the last month. How about: The full texts of the proposals being voted on can be found on http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_004 They have been been omitted here due to their (combined) length. Please go to the above URL and read the actual proposals before voting. -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [ ] Choice 1: Postpone changes until September 2004 [needs 3:1] [ ] Choice 2: Postpone changes until Sarge releases [needs 3:1] [ ] Choice 3: Add apology to Social Contract [needs 3:1] [ ] Choice 4: Revert to old wording of SC[needs 3:1] [ ] Choice 5: Transition Guide foundation document [needs 3:1] [ ] Choice 6: Further discussion -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- I'm tempted to propose guarding these lines with a torrent of disclaimers saying that the descriptions are not attempts to describe the full impact of each option, but in reality this will probably be evident to any reader who genuinely does not know what this is about (Postpone changes? Which changes?). -- Henning Makholm We will discuss your youth another time. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Proposed ballot for the GR: Deciding on the effect of GR 2004_003
Hi, This is a draft. manoj Voting starts on Votes must be received by The following ballot is for voting on a General Resolution to address the effect of the previous general resolution, titled Editorial changes to the Social Contract, on the release schedule of Sarge. The vote is being conducted in accordance with the policy delineated in Section A, Standard Resolution Procedure, of the Debian Constitution. The details of the general resolution can be found at: http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_004 HOW TO VOTE Do not erase anything between the lines below and do not change the choice names. In the brackets next to your most preferred choice, place a 1. Place a 2 in the brackets next to your next most preferred choice. Do not enter a number smaller than 1 or larger than 6. You may rank options equally (as long as all choices X you make fall in the range 1= X = 6). To vote no, no matter what rank Further Discussion as more desirable than the unacceptable choices, or you may rank the Further Discussion choice, and leave choices you consider unacceptable blank. Unranked choices are considered equally least desired choices, and ranked below all ranked choices. (Note: if the Further Discussion choice is unranked, then it is equal to all other unranked choices, if any -- no special consideration is given to the Further Discussion choice by the voting software). Then mail the ballot to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Don't worry about spacing of the columns or any quote characters () that your reply inserts. NOTE: The vote must be GPG signed (or PGP signed) with your key that is in the Debian keyring. Do _NOT_ encrypt your ballot; the voting mechanism shall not be able to decrypt your message. -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [ ] Choice 1: Postpone changes until September 2004 [needs 3:1] [ ] Choice 2: Postpone changes until Sarge releases [needs 3:1] [ ] Choice 3: Add apology to Social Contract [needs 3:1] [ ] Choice 4: Revert to old wording of SC[needs 3:1] [ ] Choice 5: Transition Guide foundation document [needs 3:1] [ ] Choice 6: Further discussion -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- The responses to a valid vote shall be signed by the vote key created for this vote. The public key for the vote, signed by the Project secretary, is appended below. -- -BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) mQGiBEClGZsRBAD2BRBPIafw4N5Fc/hyuzAiFio6wc2mqqx/dV7+r3r04nMVAOw2 lOPD/N2HZu3d3MTY7f/9OHgN2fszagN5vOX7g6dvzHnr0xcir6pNSFWebZ68+EnI 6fjhzMFNaHN+LCcRmnAxhRF/R+5lvTREJ1OolMvduHzJoSsFAnO9WTTOawCg44mb U5OadGp78r/TjNPpz6yn+V0D+gNJ1d4mAlHdw3r8U+Rxj0INc6tF1VETpGHrpKjJ 7bTT3ZqK6z9S1qGdQcG3ekWjgpZBRDeEocLFuTOpxGq4LrowP8g5CDlk9imiptAo 3Lw2xVWB1ftGVyjl1wbQCCY5699Ssz8xcqIktCNrF1VyIPepiJVu/Wk8tUFNTkw7 MaXPBACPcoc9PbEUIpDlarpqthN1IOZVoEa0dA5cQorqI+mxVnszpBezNAbEz3So 3GTkgEBZrXYaGeTJdz6DJGsKP3q/Oc14wH1Toc51vSpmyEt90Ug4iRYmOIrWIo5t bUDRiw8oBrf12sznU64+66tZta9YCM++znKiZOAg8AzmXLrUDbY8R1IgU2Fy Z2UgVm90ZSBrZXkgKFRlbXBvcmFyeSBrZXkpIDxncl9zYXJnZUB2b3RlLmRlYmlh bi5vcmc+iGQEExECACQFAkClGZsCGwMFCQBPGgAGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgEC F4AACgkQVxAJuhvkDPnO4QCgvWYsbtIAn7FLlZV3uy8CEG5z038AniJG5vMUrTNg UfRwJ1Qb+lahxWr9iEwEEBECAAwFAkClGgkFgwBPGZIACgkQIbrau78kQkz49wCf X8sJl3iiJ6BhQJw+zDtZSD06R5AAnRFtQgYxtGdtpiuAmOHtn7IhC1y7uQENBECl GZ0QBACAFHQcsufyE9q7sn1e+xf5GDjYhRCyNkC/o4YS4/FzcPiPuC5Z2Xq9dvya FLWLyX6hOsRGnclVRniC2pj+S6J7guE9Yn6tMFxDkv1KnZQtA+YkorXa40vAmTGQ JxPB4IYUz6mH0jynoDFoFf0keANz2ypgogzdQLQRkoNpDhhDUwADBgP+MO4c5B3U 15m+3svQtbYr4bNywsDY5zO/WpOzhux/Fbe8vwYgznH5eKHusaGc0MHduhkK+Zih H+e0EsmpuRytMuNulBl+0YQ0H1lSK/U7BMFgmWe/Kyih8WUOEK3/GpWOKsjPAWGn et2iZj0+5SAA2P7/RVTt8pc+NQ96ZeMf/SKITwQYEQIADwUCQKUZnQIbDAUJAE8a AAAKCRBXEAm6G+QM+aLsAKCzDucqbvvDxs7YbWv+CB4CGbkYcQCgpQnHY//7xrwC 5Bttf62SqJzXlT0= =xRmW -END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK- -- If I didn't have a Unix machine, I'd feel naked. Guess Who Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Proposed ballot for the GR: Deciding on the effect of GR 2004_003
On Fri, May 14, 2004 at 02:40:33PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [ ] Choice 1: Postpone changes until September 2004 [needs 3:1] [ ] Choice 2: Postpone changes until Sarge releases [needs 3:1] [ ] Choice 3: Add apology to Social Contract [needs 3:1] [ ] Choice 4: Revert to old wording of SC[needs 3:1] [ ] Choice 5: Transition Guide foundation document [needs 3:1] [ ] Choice 6: Further discussion -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Is there any reason why choices are indexed as 1,2,3,... while the proposal themselves are always indexed as A,B,C,... on vote.debian.org. Just curious and somewhat confused. Osamu signature.asc Description: Digital signature
