##debian-offtopic (was: Debian's Freenode IRC channels)
also sprach Michael Banck [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008.01.13.0842 +1100]: It has been decided to rename the current #debian-offtopic channel to ##debian-offtopic and keep #debian-offtopic around for people being off-topic in #debian to be directed there. Is the newcomer aware of the meaning of ##, given that s/he does not (even) know that freenode is not Debian's official IRC network? (sorry for the late reply to this thread) -- .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : proud Debian developer, author, administrator, and user `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck - http://debiansystem.info `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems william blake, you're a dead man! -- nobody digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/)
Re: Debian's Freenode IRC channels
Greetings, First and foremost, I want to apologise for the tone of my original post, and how it came across. It was rather uncharacteristic of me but I should have known better than to write such a post on 3hrs sleep in the middle of a heatwave. However, I am not apologetic for raising the issue, and wholeheartedly thank Jordi and Michael for appreciating my point of view. Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso wrote: Ronin, please remain calm and respectful. Melissa had at least one perfectly valid point, and perhaps others. Her valid point is that there is a channel that by its own admission is a pigsty, and it's using the Debian name in a popular IRC network. Channel moved, we get to keep our pigsty, and newcomers don't immediately find a hostile channel with Debian's name in it. I for one am happy that the pigsty remains, because sometimes I like to wallow around in mud just as much as you do. Problem solved all around. I would like to point out that after I was directed to the channel, I was never informed that it was a intentionally pigsty channel. The nearest I got was to be called an advocacy troll for inquiring why the channel was set +s. Regardless, I would have been equally disappointed and embarrassed that such a channel was preventably under the name of an otherwise respectable FOSS project. On 12/01/2008, Pebcak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nice use of misquoting and taking things out of context there Melissa. She quoted some channel logs with context, and the ones with fewer context were grepped. Maybe she should have used -C in her grep, but the grepped logs do show an overwhelming amount of sexual content whenever women were mentioned. I think that was context enough to attempt to make a point, with which you may agree or not. I suggest you slither over to Efnets #debian. Freenode however is a widely respected representative community for FOSS. Anyone would be hard pressed to convince me that Efnet was a respected anything. One other thing I want to comment on is this notion (because it is a pet peeve): Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: Hell, #debian-offtopic was started by a woman, and the tone was set by a crowd with a healthy proportion of women. That does not in any way make the content of that channel. If this were the case, there would be situations such as parents everywhere submitting to their children's peers behaviour because the other child's parent's recklessly allow it (think: But Daaddeee, $name's parents let them!), or (mandatory automotive example) everyone driving at insane speeds because emergency services and professional drivers do. Once again, I am sorry for how I came across. -- Sincerely Melissa Draper http://www.meldraweb.com Phone: 0404 595 395 (intl): +61 404 595 395 P.O Box 1412 Lavington, NSW 2641 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian's Freenode IRC channels
On Jan 12, 2008 12:34 PM, Melissa Draper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As part of my NY Resolutions, I decided it was time to get more involved in Debian, which involves hanging out in Debian channels more. Apart from rejoining the OFTC Debian channels, I also joined the Freenode ones since they are still the more populous. The channels I joined included #debian-offtopic - a 'secret' channel which they freely redirect offtopic conversation to if they are asked for an offtopic channel. Its better to stick to the debian servers. Freenode is well freenode. Even Linuxchix had a similar problem years ago, its practically not possible to stop folks from creating channels. At best educate people where the correct resources lie, in this case : redirect folks to the debian servers. -- Vid || http://www.svaksha.com || -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian's Freenode IRC channels
* Melissa Draper [Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:04:16 +1100]: because D-W have had more success with the overall Debian community. Hum ho. I've always thought that this success referred, mostly, to *inside* the developer/collaborator community, and I *think* it was the (at least) initial aim for DW. I can't talk about #debian on OFTC since I'm not there, but I think it'd be pretty much impossible to attain the same in a place full of people who, purposedly, flee out from the official channels. My opinion anyway, and I'm sorry for your bad experience. -- Adeodato Simó dato at net.com.org.es Debian Developer adeodato at debian.org Listening to: Javier Álvarez - Love business -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian's Freenode IRC channels
2008/1/12, Melissa Draper [EMAIL PROTECTED]: As an active Ubuntu-Women member, I've many times been told to come to Debian and the Debian-Women project whenever someone in Ubuntu slips up, because D-W have had more success with the overall Debian community. Quite frankly, I'm at a loss for what to think, because I'm not really seeing it :( None of the nicks named there ring a bell for me, who are they? Most probaby they're not involved with Debian development at all, are they? The DW project has really changed a lot of things _inside_ Debian, but if you hang around users comunities or users who have nothing at all to do with the project but using it, it might not be that way. It depends on whatever channel or bulletin board you are going to. I guess it could be impossible to handle users in any way. DW is about Women in Debian development, it has never been about Debian users. I don't get in touch too much with Debian users myself apart from the BTS and some mail reports about my packages anyway, so I cannot say anything about them. I know some Debian related channels that are very women-friendly, and some others that are totally hostile, as well as I know them about Linux in general. If a nodody user is hostile against us, well, that's something that cannot be controlled, is there any way you're trying to cope with that in Ubuntu? I mean, have you had any improvements in controlling the non-official communities of users? On the development part, I can tell you that all the Development teams inside Debian, and most of DDs I get in touch with, are very supportive of us. Kisses, Miry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian's Freenode IRC channels
Hi Melissa, On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 08:18:48PM +1100, Melissa Draper wrote: Vid Ayer wrote: On Jan 12, 2008 12:34 PM, Melissa Draper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As part of my NY Resolutions, I decided it was time to get more involved in Debian, which involves hanging out in Debian channels more. Apart from rejoining the OFTC Debian channels, I also joined the Freenode ones since they are still the more populous. The channels I joined included #debian-offtopic - a 'secret' channel which they freely redirect offtopic conversation to if they are asked for an offtopic channel. Its better to stick to the debian servers. Freenode is well freenode. Even Linuxchix had a similar problem years ago, its practically not possible to stop folks from creating channels. At best educate people where the correct resources lie, in this case : redirect folks to the debian servers. The Debian community extends beyond OFTC and is in fact 2.5x larger on Freenode than OFTC. I really wonder what kind of an answer you're looking to get from anyone about this. irc.debian.org points to OFTC. All of the Debian development channels are on OFTC. Debian as a whole has effectively zero oversight on the #debian-* channels on freenode. Debian is a free OS, which means anyone is allowed to use it, including jerks of all shapes and sizes. So I don't know what you would expect Debian to do about this. Surely no one promised you that there are no Debian-using jerks on IRC? For that matter, I can't imagine anyone making assurances about [EMAIL PROTECTED], let alone #debian-offtopic. Maybe the freenode channel has more people in it, but er, evidently this is a case where more != better; and I don't know about anyone else, but speaking for myself I don't feel any great need to either rise to the defense of Debian users on an IRC channel I don't frequent, or attempt to enforce behavior standards on an IRC network that isn't affiliated with Debian. I mean, I'm sorry that you had a bad experience, but whoever the people on those channels are, by and large they're not /my/ Debian community -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian's Freenode IRC channels
Steve Langasek wrote: Hi Melissa, On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 08:18:48PM +1100, Melissa Draper wrote: Vid Ayer wrote: On Jan 12, 2008 12:34 PM, Melissa Draper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As part of my NY Resolutions, I decided it was time to get more involved in Debian, which involves hanging out in Debian channels more. Apart from rejoining the OFTC Debian channels, I also joined the Freenode ones since they are still the more populous. The channels I joined included #debian-offtopic - a 'secret' channel which they freely redirect offtopic conversation to if they are asked for an offtopic channel. Its better to stick to the debian servers. Freenode is well freenode. Even Linuxchix had a similar problem years ago, its practically not possible to stop folks from creating channels. At best educate people where the correct resources lie, in this case : redirect folks to the debian servers. The Debian community extends beyond OFTC and is in fact 2.5x larger on Freenode than OFTC. I really wonder what kind of an answer you're looking to get from anyone about this. Something more positive and less dismissive, that's for sure. irc.debian.org points to OFTC. All of the Debian development channels are on OFTC. Debian as a whole has effectively zero oversight on the #debian-* channels on freenode. I object to this. Debian as a whole includes the ordinary users, whichever IRC network they prefer. I am not a developer, packager, documenter or anything of the sort. 99% of my FOSS work is done directly at the user level. Debian is a free OS, which means anyone is allowed to use it, including jerks of all shapes and sizes. So I don't know what you would expect Debian to do about this. Surely no one promised you that there are no Debian-using jerks on IRC? I don't recall claiming that I was promised that there were no jerks. I was not promised anything to that degree. It was merely indicated to me often that Debian-Women had achieved what Ubuntu-Women had not. To me, Ubuntu-Women has achieved a far further reach than the inner circles. For that matter, I can't imagine anyone making assurances about [EMAIL PROTECTED], let alone #debian-offtopic. Maybe the freenode channel has more people in it, but er, evidently this is a case where more != better; and I don't know about anyone else, but speaking for myself I don't feel any great need to either rise to the defense of Debian users on an IRC channel I don't frequent, or attempt to enforce behavior standards on an IRC network that isn't affiliated with Debian. I was not asking anyone to defend their sexist behaviour. I was merely noting an observation about it, from the POV of a relative newcomer to the community. I mean, I'm sorry that you had a bad experience, but whoever the people on those channels are, by and large they're not /my/ Debian community Sorry, but the parts of the Debian community you don't care about, do reflect on /your/ Debian community. -- Sincerely Melissa Draper http://www.meldraweb.com Phone: 0404 595 395 (intl): +61 404 595 395 P.O Box 1412 Lavington, NSW 2641 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian's Freenode IRC channels
Quoting Melissa Draper ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): One must be a developer or packager to be entitled to feel comfortable? Certainly not. However, as many already explained, d-w never focused on the user community. I understand that can sound as disappointing ot you and, frankly, I'd also really like to see the user community evolve the way the developers and contributors community did. I'm not entirely convinced that projects such as d-w or ubunto-w can really change things in very wide communities. As many already said, we probably have to accept that the jerk ratio in user communities will never be close to zero (in that matter, I very seriously doubt that things are better or worse in Ubuntu users communities compared to Debian users). That does not prevent anyone to try, indeed. In that matter, d-w is probably not different from any other floss-related projects: things that are done are those for which at least one person is motivated to work on them. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian's Freenode IRC channels
On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 06:04:16PM +1100, Melissa Draper wrote: I'm primarily an Ubuntu user, but I've run Debian in various places on my home network for over a year, and what is currently my home server has been exclusively Debian for about a year now. As part of my NY Resolutions, I decided it was time to get more involved in Debian, which involves hanging out in Debian channels more. Note that #debian is a support channel, not a community or development channel. Apart from rejoining the OFTC Debian channels, I also joined the Freenode ones since they are still the more populous. The channels I joined included #debian-offtopic - a 'secret' channel which they freely redirect offtopic conversation to if they are asked for an offtopic channel. I am starting to wish I had not. Aside from the channels in general being more hostile which I knew to expect, I find a complete disregard for decency towards women. From just a week in #debian on freenode, greps for 'girl' and 'women have some really degrading comments: http://pastebin.ca/LfFsZYkV (encrypted post, password: debian) I've only been in the offtopic channel since the 8th, but already I have collected: http://pastebin.ca/RiF2KwdQ (encrypted post, password: offtopic) So I'm hanging around #debian-offtopic without really monitoring the channel much, but I can immediately see how it might not be a very nice channel. I am mostly in there because we tell people who are constantly off-topic in #debian to go there, and it makes for a bit more authority if you're idling in a chan you tell people to use. The above problem involves quite some historics and this is my personal take on it, others might disagree slightly or completely: Some years ago some (if not a lot) of the people in #debian-offtopic used to talk sort of like that in #debian, giving #debian quite a bad reputation. Over time we managed to keep these kinds of conversations (general off-topic blabber, talking about drug abuse, being denigrating to women or gay people, etc.) out of the channel by either warning, ban/kicking the offenders or (in the general off-topic case) telling them to go to #debian-offtopic. So while #debian slowly became a nicer and more useful place, #debian-offtopic became the opposite. In a way, it's a place were the regulars can vent of steam if they are too frustrated with doing support in #debian. If we'd close down #debian-offtopic or otherwise regulate it, we'd have to find them another chan probably. I agree that this is a problem, but personally, I am not willing to spend more of my Debian time to tame #debian-offtopic as well, a huge chunk of the time I invest for Debian goes into having #debian on both networks be sensible. One solution would be to officially declare that #debian is the only official Debian channel on irc.freenode.net. The bottom 3 lines in the offtopic pastebin are pertaining to a conversation I tried to have just before (http://pastebin.ca/BewJbhLq encrypted, password: convo), after seeing simonrvn @be $1 barbie is replyW! $1 is too HARD! let's go shopping! ravenbird simonrvn: okay simonrvn w00t simonrvn @be ssh barbie ravenbird W! ssh is too HARD! let's go shopping! Ok, this is an issue with the original #debian bot as well, which should probably by removed. As an active Ubuntu-Women member, I've many times been told to come to Debian and the Debian-Women project whenever someone in Ubuntu slips up, because D-W have had more success with the overall Debian community. Quite frankly, I'm at a loss for what to think, because I'm not really seeing it :( See above for a potential solution. Not sure what this would mean for all the local non-english language channels still on irc.freenode.net though, we did not really yet put any QA into them (but we hear about trouble from time to time). Well, that's a more general question anyway. sorry for your experience, Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian's Freenode IRC channels
* Michael Banck [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008:01:12 12:15 +0100]: On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 02:08:16AM -0800, Erinn Clark wrote: Anyway, time passed, we changed our official servers, and a lot of users did not follow from freenode. Well, it should be said that also most of the operators decided to care for both channels or stay on freenode. Yeah, I knew a lot of the ops stuck around on freenode. I always wondered what kind of coverage it got. (Just to be clear, I don't expect you to stick around and monitor all of these channels all the time!) So that's the history, but since you're concerned with the present and future... I don't know what to tell you. As Vid says, anyone can create channels for anything there -- they are not officially sanctioned in any way, they are not officially supported, and very few official Debian types hang around there. Well, out of the 40 people on #debian-offtopic, around 10% are DDs, and another 10-20% are known members of the Debian community. So maybe the problem is that having those people around there gives the channel some sort of credibility it should not have (given that most of those people in there just idle). Huh, I didn't know that. I agree that their presence is possibly giving it some credibility (or at least makes it difficult/impossible for us to wash our hands of the situation and declare no relation to it). So what's up? Are any other #d-o patrons? Why y'all misbehavin'? Michael, do you think we need more (new) ops on freenode? It's been a while since we appointed new people... -- off the chain like a rebellious guanine nucleotide -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian's Freenode IRC channels
On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 03:34:40AM -0800, Erinn Clark wrote: * Michael Banck [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008:01:12 12:15 +0100]: On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 02:08:16AM -0800, Erinn Clark wrote: Anyway, time passed, we changed our official servers, and a lot of users did not follow from freenode. Well, it should be said that also most of the operators decided to care for both channels or stay on freenode. Yeah, I knew a lot of the ops stuck around on freenode. I always wondered what kind of coverage it got. (Just to be clear, I don't expect you to stick around and monitor all of these channels all the time!) I think #debian on freenode is doing just fine. Usually, when I'm remotely monitoring IRC and see somebody called the !ops factoid in #debian, the abuse would've been klined already by one of the staffers who hang around there. So that's the history, but since you're concerned with the present and future... I don't know what to tell you. As Vid says, anyone can create channels for anything there -- they are not officially sanctioned in any way, they are not officially supported, and very few official Debian types hang around there. Well, out of the 40 people on #debian-offtopic, around 10% are DDs, and another 10-20% are known members of the Debian community. So maybe the problem is that having those people around there gives the channel some sort of credibility it should not have (given that most of those people in there just idle). Huh, I didn't know that. I agree that their presence is possibly giving it some credibility (or at least makes it difficult/impossible for us to wash our hands of the situation and declare no relation to it). So what's up? Are any other #d-o patrons? Why y'all misbehavin'? Well, there are Debian people, #debian regulars, former #debian regulars and other people in #debian-offtopic. As I said before, I don't really follow the channel, so I cannot say a lot, but I think most of the misbehaving is from some of the former or current #debian regulars or recent additions. Michael, do you think we need more (new) ops on freenode? It's been a while since we appointed new people... As I said above, I think #debian on freenode is fine currently. If somebody wants to tame #debian-offtopic we could support them, but it might be neither easy nor worth it. Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian's Freenode IRC channels
On Jan 12, 2008 8:36 AM, Melissa Draper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't recall claiming that I was promised that there were no jerks. I was not promised anything to that degree. It was merely indicated to me often that Debian-Women had achieved what Ubuntu-Women had not. To me, Ubuntu-Women has achieved a far further reach than the inner circles. Before Debian-Women started, there were only 3 female DDs and the atmosphere at #debian-devel and at the debian-devel mailing list was not friendly towards women. After a few years of Debian-Women we have about 10 female DDs, and others in the making, and the atmosphere at most developers places is welcoming towards females. These results are what we have achieved. We changed Debian (well, at least, I feel we did). You might feel that this is not much compared to Ubuntu-Women (I have no idea what Ubuntu-Women has achieved, can you tell us?), but I feel that since many UD are DDs, the influence of Debian-Women on the DDs/UDs has allowed Ubuntu-Women to focus on other areas, since the developing areas had already been fixed by Debian-Women. Also the inner circles as you call it, involve quite a lot of people. It might not reach towards the full user community, nobody denies that, but I really feel that Debian-Women has made a big change in the whole Debian Developer community, not only in an elite circle, but in all people related to development. As was already stated, we don't oppose to making this effort broader, and reaching user communities as well, but for doing that, we would have to have a lot of time and put a lot of effort into it, which we currently don't have, and it was never one of our priority aims. If it's your priority, you have the time and the will to do it, then you are more than welcome to do it. But I don't think it's fair to come here demanding that we should do something that we never claimed we would do. -- Besos, Marga -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian's Freenode IRC channels
On Jan 12, 2008 8:25 PM, Margarita Manterola [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: After a few years of Debian-Women we have about 10 female DDs, and others in the making, and the atmosphere at most developers places is welcoming towards females. These results are what we have achieved. We changed Debian (well, at least, I feel we did). Yes, DW did it and that was my motivation for founding UW all along. compared to Ubuntu-Women (I have no idea what Ubuntu-Women has achieved, can you tell us?), but I feel Technically speaking, no DD-like situation, but that i feel is a distant dream when there is still confusion[0] about about what UW is about. If I sound disappointed, well i am :( [0] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-women/2008-January/001242.html that since many UD are DDs, the influence of Debian-Women on the DDs/UDs has allowed Ubuntu-Women to focus on other areas, since the developing areas had already been fixed by Debian-Women. True, is not something one can specifically point at but DW influence is there. Also the Ubuntu CoC plays a huge role in Ubuntu, which Debian does not have, but each to its own. As was already stated, we don't oppose to making this effort broader, and reaching user communities as well, but for doing that, we would have to have a lot of time and put a lot of effort into it, which we currently don't have, and it was never one of our priority aims. If it's your priority, you have the time and the will to do it, then you are more than welcome to do it. But I don't think it's fair to come here demanding that we should do something that we never claimed we would do. right, I guess that is true for any situation, not just Debian. -- Vid || http://www.svaksha.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian's Freenode IRC channels
(It seems I have to be subscribed for my message to reach the lists. Having subscribed, I'm resending. If it is not the case, apologees for the duplicate posting.) On Jan 12, 2008 12:34 PM, Melissa Draper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: simonrvn @be $1 barbie is replyW! $1 is too HARD! let's go shopping! ravenbird simonrvn: okay simonrvn w00t simonrvn @be ssh barbie ravenbird W! ssh is too HARD! let's go shopping! Are you equating making fun of Barbie with making fun of women in general? Now *I'm* offended. I should think that most people in debian-women would be among the people most eager to make fun of Barbie! Your logs are also in my (and also others') opinion misleadingly edited. http://www.pastebin.ca/852059 contain the full logs of the channel for that period. Hell, #debian-offtopic was started by a woman, and the tone was set by a crowd with a healthy proportion of women. Calling the channel sexist or accusing us of degrading women simply doesn't have any base in reality, *whatsoever*. One might say we reject decency equally - man, or women. :) Melissa Draper has demonstrated no interest in making the channel more woman-friendly (it has got one of the highest female populations of any distro-related channel) - it seems to me that she is only interested in making the channel meet her own personal morality criteria. Regards, -Tore :) AKA toresbe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian's Freenode IRC channels
On Jan 12, 2008 12:34 PM, Melissa Draper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: simonrvn @be $1 barbie is replyW! $1 is too HARD! let's go shopping! ravenbird simonrvn: okay simonrvn w00t simonrvn @be ssh barbie ravenbird W! ssh is too HARD! let's go shopping! Are you equating making fun of Barbie with making fun of women in general? Now *I'm* offended. I should think that most people in debian-women would be among the people most eager to make fun of Barbie! Your logs are also in my (and also others') opinion misleadingly edited. http://www.pastebin.ca/852059 contain the full logs of the channel for that period. Hell, #debian-offtopic was started by a woman, and the tone was set by a crowd with a healthy proportion of women. Calling the channel sexist or accusing us of degrading women simply doesn't have any base in reality, *whatsoever*. One might say we reject decency equally - man, or women. :) Melissa Draper has demonstrated no interest in making the channel more woman-friendly (it has got one of the highest female populations of any distro-related channel) - it seems to me that she is only interested in making the channel meet her own personal morality criteria. -Tore AKA toresbe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian's Freenode IRC channels
On Jan 12, 2008 5:04 AM, Melissa Draper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As part of my NY Resolutions, I decided it was time to get more involved in Debian, which involves hanging out in Debian channels more. Apart from rejoining the OFTC Debian channels, I also joined the Freenode ones since they are still the more populous. The channels I joined included #debian-offtopic - a 'secret' channel which they freely redirect offtopic conversation to if they are asked for an offtopic channel. Ok, so, after a small bit of research I found out something interesting. It turns out that #ubuntu-offtopic on freenode is an official community channel for Ubuntu. So, *newsflash*, not all similarly named channels are for the same thing. The fact that there is a #debian-offtopic should NOT lead you to believe that people on that channel are expected to behave as people on #ubuntu-offtopic. Debian's official servers are at irc.oftc.net. Debian's community channels are #debian and the localized #debian-fr, #debian-br, etc. If you are going to come with any complaints about irc channels, and come claiming that _we_ are not doing enough, then please give some grounds to your claims. Speaking about random channels on random networks does NOT give grounds to your claim. It was merely indicated to me often that Debian-Women had achieved what Ubuntu-Women had not. To me, Ubuntu-Women has achieved a far further reach than the inner circles. Comparing how much UW has done against how much DW has done seems to have no grounds at all. Since the first one is a user support group, and the other is a developer encouraging group. So, whatever, you do great user support, we do not. But we've increased the amount of female developers and you have not. Who wins? Just to be clear, I'll spell it out: I don't think anybody wins, we are two groups who have two very different aims, and I don't think it's useful AT ALL to demand the other group to change their aim. Please, until you learn to value other people's work, do refrain from demanding that we do random stuff that only interests you. -- Besos, Marga PS (for the rest of d-w list): I'm sorry if this comes as too aggresive, but after a whole re-reading of IRC backlogs and mailing list threads, and talking with #debian-offtopic people, I can't but express my opinion on this matter. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian's Freenode IRC channels
On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 12:03:23PM +0100, Christian Perrier wrote: Quoting Melissa Draper ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): One must be a developer or packager to be entitled to feel comfortable? I'm not entirely convinced that projects such as d-w or ubunto-w can really change things in very wide communities. As many already said, we probably have to accept that the jerk ratio in user communities will never be close to zero (in that matter, I very seriously doubt that things are better or worse in Ubuntu users communities compared to Debian users). This is probably especially true of Debian where pretty much everything is done in a very loose, ad hoc fashion. There is very little pressure to officially affiliate with Debian or do any particular kind of organisation so you end up with lots of overlapping groups with differing levels of awareness of each other and often with differing ideas about how things should be done. -- You grabbed my hand and we fell into it, like a daydream - or a fever.
Re: Debian's Freenode IRC channels
On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 07:51:43PM +, Benjamin A'Lee wrote: While I see your point, the fact that the channel has debian in the name suggests that the channel has something to do with the Debian Project. If I set up a website at debian-offtopic.com and filled it with sexist jokes, Nazi propaganda, or anything of the sort, people would rightly be offended. While many/most people here may know that Freenode is not the official Debian IRC network, who's to say that a newcomer will realise that (after all, there's a #debian etc. there too)? While I realise that it's not possible to police every single network, Freenode is a very large and popular one, and I think Debian would be completely justified in preventing people using its name. The behaviour in the channel, from what I've heard, is not something that should be associated with Debian. It has been decided to rename the current #debian-offtopic channel to ##debian-offtopic and keep #debian-offtopic around for people being off-topic in #debian to be directed there. So this is hopefully the end of this episode, Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian's Freenode IRC channels
Nice use of misquoting and taking things out of context there Melissa. If you really want to be offended, and from what I've seen offending you isn't really all that hard, oops I said hard, now don't go and get offended, I suggest you slither over to Efnets #debian. Then you'll have something to complain about. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian's Freenode IRC channels
* Michael Banck [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008:01:12 22:42 +0100]: It has been decided to rename the current #debian-offtopic channel to ##debian-offtopic and keep #debian-offtopic around for people being off-topic in #debian to be directed there. Thanks Michael (and everyone else involved)! -- off the chain like a rebellious guanine nucleotide -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian's Freenode IRC channels
On 12/01/2008, Erinn Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008:01:12 08:29 -0600]: followed by discussion of and links to NSFW stuff. [...] Also, regarding porn in general, which you seem to have mentioned... minefield, and something I'm very ambivalent about. Just as a note: NSFW does not necessarily imply porn, IMO, so a discussion of the ethics of porn is out of place here. In this particular instance, in one of the channel logs that Melissa posted she sarcastically said is this a smut channel? by which I thought she meant sexually explicit material. That's why I said that she seemed to have mentioned porn... - Jordi G. H.
Re: Debian's Freenode IRC channels
Ronin, please remain calm and respectful. Melissa had at least one perfectly valid point, and perhaps others. Her valid point is that there is a channel that by its own admission is a pigsty, and it's using the Debian name in a popular IRC network. Channel moved, we get to keep our pigsty, and newcomers don't immediately find a hostile channel with Debian's name in it. I for one am happy that the pigsty remains, because sometimes I like to wallow around in mud just as much as you do. Problem solved all around. On 12/01/2008, Pebcak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nice use of misquoting and taking things out of context there Melissa. She quoted some channel logs with context, and the ones with fewer context were grepped. Maybe she should have used -C in her grep, but the grepped logs do show an overwhelming amount of sexual content whenever women were mentioned. I think that was context enough to attempt to make a point, with which you may agree or not. I suggest you slither over to Efnets #debian. You could have used better word choice here than slither. Cheers, - Jordi G. H. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Debian's Freenode IRC channels
Greetings, I'm primarily an Ubuntu user, but I've run Debian in various places on my home network for over a year, and what is currently my home server has been exclusively Debian for about a year now. As part of my NY Resolutions, I decided it was time to get more involved in Debian, which involves hanging out in Debian channels more. Apart from rejoining the OFTC Debian channels, I also joined the Freenode ones since they are still the more populous. The channels I joined included #debian-offtopic - a 'secret' channel which they freely redirect offtopic conversation to if they are asked for an offtopic channel. I am starting to wish I had not. Aside from the channels in general being more hostile which I knew to expect, I find a complete disregard for decency towards women. From just a week in #debian on freenode, greps for 'girl' and 'women have some really degrading comments: http://pastebin.ca/LfFsZYkV (encrypted post, password: debian) I've only been in the offtopic channel since the 8th, but already I have collected: http://pastebin.ca/RiF2KwdQ (encrypted post, password: offtopic) The bottom 3 lines in the offtopic pastebin are pertaining to a conversation I tried to have just before (http://pastebin.ca/BewJbhLq encrypted, password: convo), after seeing simonrvn @be $1 barbie is replyW! $1 is too HARD! let's go shopping! ravenbird simonrvn: okay simonrvn w00t simonrvn @be ssh barbie ravenbird W! ssh is too HARD! let's go shopping! followed by discussion of and links to NSFW stuff. As an active Ubuntu-Women member, I've many times been told to come to Debian and the Debian-Women project whenever someone in Ubuntu slips up, because D-W have had more success with the overall Debian community. Quite frankly, I'm at a loss for what to think, because I'm not really seeing it :( -- Sincerely Melissa Draper http://www.meldraweb.com Phone: 0404 595 395 (intl): +61 404 595 395 P.O Box 1412 Lavington, NSW 2641 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
