Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: ODF spec for hiding a shape or group

[Regina Henschel]

Hi all,

Taylor Jenkins schrieb:

*See comments inline.*

On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Yousuf 'Jay' Philips 
wrote:


Regarding z-index, what does it mean to change the z-index on a group if

With my limited knowledge of ODF, groups dont have z-index only shapes do,
so though you can pretend to move a group's z-index, you are actually
moving the z-index of the shapes.



*In ODF (LO 5.1), groups do have a z-index.


We need to distinguish between ODF and LO. In ODF a group may indeed 
have a z-index. On opening the document, LO interprets the z-index. But 
LO does not store any z-index.




*For example take the following array of shapes: [a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h].*
*Here is the result after grouping shapes b, d, and f: [a,c,e, [b, d, f],
g, h].*
*The group now has the index of 3, and the index for h changed from 7 to 5.
The rendering order is now a, c, e, b, d, f, g, h.*


You describe the stacking order in LibreOffice.

I think, that LibreOffice cannot show all ways to stack elements, which 
would be possible with the draw:z-index element. I think, that ODF needs 
an addition, how to work with groups. Imagine the following structure 
(It is from the attached file, not relevant parts are replaced with ~~~)



/>


draw:z-index="8">
draw:z-index="3">



draw:z-index="6">
draw:z-index="5">


/>



What stacking order do you expect?
(a)
OneLine
ThreeRectangle
FiveCircle
SixRectangle
SevenLine
EightCircle

(b)
OneLine
FiveCircle
SixRectangle
ThreeRectangle
EightCircle
SevenLine

I would expect (a) from the text of the specification. But LO uses (b), 
which means, that it does not respect the z-index crossing groups. LO 
interprets z-index only for stack order of objects of the same level. So 
LO works as

(b)
OneLine
[TwoGroup, not visible as itself]
FiveCircle
SixRectangle
[FourGroup, not visible as itself]
ThreeRectangle
EightCircle
SevenLine

So it has on first level the order OneLine, TwoGroup, FourGroup, 
SevenLine. And on second level, inside a group FiveCircle, SixRectangle 
and in the other group ThreeRectangle, EightCircle. I see the same stack 
order in Calligra-Karbon, although Callibra preserves the z-index value.


Because LO determines the stack order by the order in which the objects 
appear in the file, it is not able to handle mixing group and stacking 
order.


Jos, Thorsten, should we adapt the specification to the way LibreOffice 
and Calligra do it? It would implicate, that the z-index need not be 
unique over the whole document, but only locally on the level.


Kind regards
Regina



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[libreoffice-design] Logo for crash report website

[Yousuf 'Jay' Philips]

Hi all,

I was asked to mention to the design mailing list that a logo would 
likely be needed for the crash report website, so if anyone wants to 
take this up that would be great. A favicon would also be appreciated.


http://crashreport.libreoffice.org/stats/

Yousuf

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Home for the breeze icon theme

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

It's just that LO has so many great icon sets that people spent so many
hours working on, that it just dissapoints me that this work is mostly
ignored by the majority of users that won't ever change the default icon
set from Tango, which has existed for ages and looks dated (even with the
current improvements).

Heck, Tango is starting to not even look integrated in Gnome 3 since, the
design paradigm of gnome has changed as well. Breeze is a much more modern
icon set, just as Sifr is, and they were both the result of work from LO
contributors and not a legacy icon set adopted from AOO (even if Tango also
received multiple improvements along the way).

And I mean, with the amazing work that all of you did in the past few years
on the UI of LO, the building blocks to present new default UIs and give
users the option between default UIs adjusted to their preferences in
workflow are all there.

The Sidebar has been vastly improved. The single toolbar mode was
integrated. There is a bunch of different icon sets that adjust to old OSes
or to new OSes...
And the Notebookbar is coming along.

The KDE DE has an option of "themes" that changes a few presets. Something
similar could be presented to LO users at first boot.

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 10:42 AM, Pedro Rosmaninho 
wrote:

> ​Well, in that Welcome dialog I would probably just put some preset UI
> options (simple toolbar, traditional toolbar, toolbar+Sidebar) along with
> that. A bit like Kingsoft Office does.​
>
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Yousuf 'Jay' Philips 
> wrote:
>
>> On 08/01/2016 06:51 PM, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
>>
>>> I thought it was possible to discriminate the Windows version to present
>>> a distinct icon set per version.
>>>
>>
>> I'm not sure if it is possible as i dont know how the installer works.
>>
>> Since Tango doesn't look native to Windows I think using another icon
>>> set with a more native feel would fit better, even for previous versions
>>> of Windows. For example, Office 13 and 16 also adopt a different design
>>> language than Aero but they don't look out of place in Windows 7.
>>>
>>
>> Most apps on windows dont have native looking icons in their interface
>> similar to the windows OS. Here are screenshots from 2 of the top 10
>> downloaded apps on windows.
>>
>> http://images.six.betanews.com/screenshots/1100194579-1.png
>>
>> http://antivirus-freedownload.com/proimg/avast.jpg
>>
>> And barely anyone is using previous versions of Wnidows to 7 after the
>>> end-of-life for XP.
>>>
>>
>> Yes Vista pretty much disappeared once 7 arrived, but XP is still holding
>> in there with 7 to 10 percent, which is quite close to what Win8 has today.
>> Win 7 is king with ~45% and Win 10 is ~22% thanks to the the 1-year upgrade
>> giveaway that just ended, and many users were automatically upgraded. But
>> now that that free upgrade is over, i dont see Win10 going over 30% for the
>> forseeable future, especially when Win7 will be supported for atleast
>> another 3.5 years and users can still buy Win7 laptops today. Also the year
>> of the linux desktop seems to be near. ;D
>>
>> I also think that Sifr looks better on MacOS than Breeze. A lot of work
>>> was done in these icon sets that look native in these two OSes. It is a
>>> waste not to put them front and center to the LibreOffice users on those
>>> OSes.
>>>
>>> Much like Tango is perfect for Gnome and Breeze also for KDE.
>>>
>>
>> Might be a useful thing to ask users in the proposed welcome dialog
>> (tdf#91441) so that they can make this choice after they install LO.
>>
>> Yousuf.
>>
>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Home for the breeze icon theme

[kainz.a]

KDE implement something like a look and feel package. the idea is that you
don't have to select I'd like to use this icons with that color scheme and
this widget layout.

So maybe you can have in the dialogue a preview of different layouts.
simple tollbar with tango icons e.g. for xp users, toolbar + sidebar with
breeze icons and dark theme, ... you can change everything in the settings
dialogue but in the start selection you say I'd like to have this.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Home for the breeze icon theme

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

​Well, in that Welcome dialog I would probably just put some preset UI
options (simple toolbar, traditional toolbar, toolbar+Sidebar) along with
that. A bit like Kingsoft Office does.​

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Yousuf 'Jay' Philips 
wrote:

> On 08/01/2016 06:51 PM, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
>
>> I thought it was possible to discriminate the Windows version to present
>> a distinct icon set per version.
>>
>
> I'm not sure if it is possible as i dont know how the installer works.
>
> Since Tango doesn't look native to Windows I think using another icon
>> set with a more native feel would fit better, even for previous versions
>> of Windows. For example, Office 13 and 16 also adopt a different design
>> language than Aero but they don't look out of place in Windows 7.
>>
>
> Most apps on windows dont have native looking icons in their interface
> similar to the windows OS. Here are screenshots from 2 of the top 10
> downloaded apps on windows.
>
> http://images.six.betanews.com/screenshots/1100194579-1.png
>
> http://antivirus-freedownload.com/proimg/avast.jpg
>
> And barely anyone is using previous versions of Wnidows to 7 after the
>> end-of-life for XP.
>>
>
> Yes Vista pretty much disappeared once 7 arrived, but XP is still holding
> in there with 7 to 10 percent, which is quite close to what Win8 has today.
> Win 7 is king with ~45% and Win 10 is ~22% thanks to the the 1-year upgrade
> giveaway that just ended, and many users were automatically upgraded. But
> now that that free upgrade is over, i dont see Win10 going over 30% for the
> forseeable future, especially when Win7 will be supported for atleast
> another 3.5 years and users can still buy Win7 laptops today. Also the year
> of the linux desktop seems to be near. ;D
>
> I also think that Sifr looks better on MacOS than Breeze. A lot of work
>> was done in these icon sets that look native in these two OSes. It is a
>> waste not to put them front and center to the LibreOffice users on those
>> OSes.
>>
>> Much like Tango is perfect for Gnome and Breeze also for KDE.
>>
>
> Might be a useful thing to ask users in the proposed welcome dialog
> (tdf#91441) so that they can make this choice after they install LO.
>
> Yousuf.
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Home for the breeze icon theme

[Yousuf 'Jay' Philips]

On 08/01/2016 06:51 PM, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:

I thought it was possible to discriminate the Windows version to present
a distinct icon set per version.


I'm not sure if it is possible as i dont know how the installer works.


Since Tango doesn't look native to Windows I think using another icon
set with a more native feel would fit better, even for previous versions
of Windows. For example, Office 13 and 16 also adopt a different design
language than Aero but they don't look out of place in Windows 7.


Most apps on windows dont have native looking icons in their interface 
similar to the windows OS. Here are screenshots from 2 of the top 10 
downloaded apps on windows.


http://images.six.betanews.com/screenshots/1100194579-1.png

http://antivirus-freedownload.com/proimg/avast.jpg


And barely anyone is using previous versions of Wnidows to 7 after the
end-of-life for XP.


Yes Vista pretty much disappeared once 7 arrived, but XP is still 
holding in there with 7 to 10 percent, which is quite close to what Win8 
has today. Win 7 is king with ~45% and Win 10 is ~22% thanks to the the 
1-year upgrade giveaway that just ended, and many users were 
automatically upgraded. But now that that free upgrade is over, i dont 
see Win10 going over 30% for the forseeable future, especially when Win7 
will be supported for atleast another 3.5 years and users can still buy 
Win7 laptops today. Also the year of the linux desktop seems to be near. ;D



I also think that Sifr looks better on MacOS than Breeze. A lot of work
was done in these icon sets that look native in these two OSes. It is a
waste not to put them front and center to the LibreOffice users on those
OSes.

Much like Tango is perfect for Gnome and Breeze also for KDE.


Might be a useful thing to ask users in the proposed welcome dialog 
(tdf#91441) so that they can make this choice after they install LO.


Yousuf.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: ODF spec for hiding a shape or group

[Yousuf 'Jay' Philips]

On 08/03/2016 09:36 AM, Taylor Jenkins wrote:

*See comments inline.*

*In ODF (LO 5.1), groups do have a z-index. When a group is created, it
is created as a new shape and assigned a z index. The sub shapes are
assigned new z indices starting from the lowest z index, in order of the
shapes contained within the group, but referenced to the group shape.
Think of a sub array within an array.*
*The ODF Specification also defines a group element  which has
the attribute . Here is the reference: *
*http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part1.html#element-draw_g
 *
*
*
*All shapes with z indices greater than the lowest z index to be
included in the group, but less than the highest z index of the shapes
to be included in the group are reassigned indices, in the order they
were before the grouping, beginning at the index of the lowest shape to
be included in the group. The group is then assigned the next z index to
follow. All remaining shapes with z indices higher than the index of the
last shape to be included are then reassigned in order beginning with
the first index following the group.*
*
*
*For example take the following array of shapes: [a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h].*
*Here is the result after grouping shapes b, d, and f: [a,c,e, [b, d,
f], g, h].*
*The group now has the index of 3, and the index for h changed from 7 to
5. The rendering order is now a, c, e, b, d, f, g, h.*


Thanks for the clarification as this simplifies everything.


*While this is a good workaround, I don't know that it is entirely
necessary. I think both layering schemes could easily be incorporated
with a change in UI terminology and an LO specific layer feature that
also manages z-index. Since the existing layers are essentially nothing
more than visibility layers, I suggest renaming them as such in the UI,
or perhaps V-Layers for short. The LO specific layers could be called
Z-Layers. Unlike a V-Layer which only has attributes: draw:display,
draw:name, and draw:protected, and does not change draw:z-index, a
Z-Layer could have V-Layers as child elements, and also manage the
draw:z-index of its child elements, simply by assigning the values of
both attributes: draw:layer, and draw:z-index for each drawing object
that is a child element. *
*
*
*Each drawing object has the attributes  and . *
*
*
*http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part1.html#element-draw_layer-set
*
*http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part1.html#attribute-draw_z-index
*
*
*
* Using your workaround example, I could import the first ODF structure
like so:*
*
*
*[Z-Layer] Default*
*  [V-Layer] Mobile
 [Object] iPhone (z-index: 1)
 [Object] Nexus (z-index: 3)
  [V-Layer] Tablet
 [Object] iPad (z-index: 2)
*
*
*
*I could then add objects and layers, while maintaining and ODF readable
document like so:*
*
*
*
[Z-Layer] Default
  [V-Layer] Mobile
 [Object] iPhone (z-index: 1)
 [Object] Nexus (z-index: 3)
  [V-Layer] Tablet
 [Object] iPad (z-index: 2)
 [Object] Galaxy Tab(z-index: 4)
  [V-Layer] PC
 [Object] Laptop (z-index: 5)
[Z-Layer] New
  [V-Layer] Data
 [Object] Specs (z-index: 6)*
*
*
*Since Z-Layers are LO specific, they are ignored by ODF, but since we
structured it like this the resulting ODF document opened in another
application would maintain the same structure and appearance, as shown
below:*
*
*
*
  [V-Layer] Mobile
 [Object] iPhone (z-index: 1)
 [Object] Nexus (z-index: 3)
  [V-Layer] Tablet
 [Object] iPad (z-index: 2)
 [Object] Galaxy Tab(z-index: 4)
  [V-Layer] PC
 [Object] Laptop (z-index: 5)
  [V-Layer] Data
 [Object] Specs (z-index: 6)
*


Now with the clarity that groups have z-index, the Z-Layer concept isnt 
needed as groups can easily take its place, and V-Layer is actually an 
attribute of objects so shouldnt be placed above objects in a hierarchy.


[Group] Default (z-index: 8)
  [Object] iPhone (z-index: 7, layer: Mobile)
  [Object] iPad (z-index: 6, layer: Tablet)
  [Object] Nexus (z-index: 5, layer: Mobile)
  [Object] Galaxy Tab (z-index: 4, layer: Tablet)
  [Object] Laptop (z-index: 3, layer: PC)
[Group] New (z-index: 2)
  [Object] Specs (z-index: 1, layer: Data)

Note: i could be mistaken with the z-index numbering and the numbers go 
in the opposite direction. :D



* isn't an attribute of layers or groups, but it appears
that it can be used to modify the opacity of a layer or group, since
layers and groups are graphical objects. Ref:
http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part1.html#__RefHeading__1415788_253892949
Even if by chance layers and groups can't be directly modified by
, then it can be used to modify the list of elements
contained therein.*


Seems i incorrectly gave the  tag when i meant to give the 
draw:opacity attribute, which states "The draw:opacity attribute 
specifies the opacity for an image or graphic object. The defined value 
range for the draw:opacity attribute