Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[kainz.a]

First I don't think we need a default cause default is the standard
toolbars and all others aren't default arranged in a list.

If one should be preferred I go with tabbed toolbar cause the concept is
well known since 10 years and it scale pretty well. Groupedbar is for my
workflow better but I use a 24" uhdpi office screen on the 12" laptop I
would use tabbedbar or tabbed compact.

In the end the main question is how we guarantee that new features get
implemented in the different implementations.

Cheers
Andreas_k

jan  schrieb am Do., 29. März 2018, 19:33:

> I would go with the tabbed bar.
>
> * It is somewhat scalable (e.g. for potential addons ) by adding tabs if
> really needed.
> * It is similar to the MS office style
> ** It makes it easier for people who want to switch from MSO
> ** It can be a good argument for decision makers that it is like
> applications people know.
> ** I assume MS made quite some effort to get the ribbon concept right so
> doing something similar is likely to be a good idea.
>
> All this might be better estimated with a usability test comparing the
> alternatives in depth, but as long as we did not do this, I would
> suggest above reasoning.
>
> Jan
>
> Am 29.03.2018 um 18:23 schrieb Heiko Tietze:
> > On 29.03.2018 18:02, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
> >> IMO, the Groupedbar should be the chosen one.
> >> Here are the reasons why I think it is the most suited one:
> >> 1 - *It has a unique look among Office suites
> >> 2 - It's distinctive from the Ribbon UI
> >
> > That was my question. Personally I wouldn't go with the Groupedbar
> because it has no advantage over classic toolbars, there is a lot of
> unclear movement, and I doubt that Benjamin find his way easily through the
> options. Not saying it's bad design.
> >
> > And your reasons are different from the originally discussed idea to
> make it easy to switch from other programs: "It's encouraged to have
> Notebookbars that simulate alternative programs but "crazy" ideas with
> completely new UI approaches are also welcome."
> >
> > But it's up to the community, which is first the design team. So more
> opinions please.
> >
> >
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[jan]

I would go with the tabbed bar.

* It is somewhat scalable (e.g. for potential addons ) by adding tabs if
really needed.
* It is similar to the MS office style
** It makes it easier for people who want to switch from MSO
** It can be a good argument for decision makers that it is like
applications people know.
** I assume MS made quite some effort to get the ribbon concept right so
doing something similar is likely to be a good idea.

All this might be better estimated with a usability test comparing the
alternatives in depth, but as long as we did not do this, I would
suggest above reasoning.

Jan

Am 29.03.2018 um 18:23 schrieb Heiko Tietze:
> On 29.03.2018 18:02, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
>> IMO, the Groupedbar should be the chosen one.
>> Here are the reasons why I think it is the most suited one:
>> 1 - *It has a unique look among Office suites
>> 2 - It's distinctive from the Ribbon UI
> 
> That was my question. Personally I wouldn't go with the Groupedbar because it 
> has no advantage over classic toolbars, there is a lot of unclear movement, 
> and I doubt that Benjamin find his way easily through the options. Not saying 
> it's bad design.
> 
> And your reasons are different from the originally discussed idea to make it 
> easy to switch from other programs: "It's encouraged to have Notebookbars 
> that simulate alternative programs but "crazy" ideas with completely new UI 
> approaches are also welcome."
> 
> But it's up to the community, which is first the design team. So more 
> opinions please.
> 
> 

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

To me it unites the best of the classic toolbars (access to drop down
menus) and the best of the Ribbon UI.

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 5:23 PM, Heiko Tietze 
wrote:

> On 29.03.2018 18:02, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
> > IMO, the Groupedbar should be the chosen one.
> > Here are the reasons why I think it is the most suited one:
> > 1 - *It has a unique look among Office suites
> > 2 - It's distinctive from the Ribbon UI
>
> That was my question. Personally I wouldn't go with the Groupedbar because
> it has no advantage over classic toolbars, there is a lot of unclear
> movement, and I doubt that Benjamin find his way easily through the
> options. Not saying it's bad design.
>
> And your reasons are different from the originally discussed idea to make
> it easy to switch from other programs: "It's encouraged to have
> Notebookbars that simulate alternative programs but "crazy" ideas with
> completely new UI approaches are also welcome."
>
> But it's up to the community, which is first the design team. So more
> opinions please.
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[Heiko Tietze]

On 29.03.2018 18:02, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
> IMO, the Groupedbar should be the chosen one.
> Here are the reasons why I think it is the most suited one:
> 1 - *It has a unique look among Office suites
> 2 - It's distinctive from the Ribbon UI

That was my question. Personally I wouldn't go with the Groupedbar because it 
has no advantage over classic toolbars, there is a lot of unclear movement, and 
I doubt that Benjamin find his way easily through the options. Not saying it's 
bad design.

And your reasons are different from the originally discussed idea to make it 
easy to switch from other programs: "It's encouraged to have Notebookbars that 
simulate alternative programs but "crazy" ideas with completely new UI 
approaches are also welcome."

But it's up to the community, which is first the design team. So more opinions 
please.


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

I gave it a bit of thought but I didn't write down all possible reasons why
it would be a good idea.
Right now there are 4 or 5 variants, and all of them have issues. Instead
of packing more and more variants, just create a section in the extension
website and just include two Notebookbars by default and focus work of
everyone in polishing those (and hence Bugzilla reports would be focused in
just those two variants).

As Jan said, this decreases the complexity of usability checks, and the
team doesn't have to consider 5 or 6 variants when enacting changes.
Also by focusing on just two variants, we can "market" those as being the
Libre Office look.


IMO, LO should just include one of the Notebookbar variants (with a Full
and Compact option) by default and the other should be moved to the
extensions website.

IMO, the Groupedbar should be the chosen one.
Here are the reasons why I think it is the most suited one:
1 - *It has a unique look among Office suites, thus it allows Libre Office
to adopt a distinctive look among its competitors.*
2 - It's distinctive from the Ribbon UI, and it's not a traditional toolbar,
3 - *It allows users to still access drop down menus.* This is one of the
main issues that people point out when using the Ribbon UI in MSO. It's
also a downside of the Tabbed Bar,
4 - In a time where every Office suite follow the Ribbon UI, the Groupedbar
still is familiar enough for users that grew up using it but retains the
advantages of the toolbar (easy access to drop-down menus).
5 - It already got some positive spin in sites like OMG Ubuntu.
6 - It looks functional in the 3 modules (in the 6.1 dev).
I think Andreas K. struck gold when creating it.

I would rebrand it to something more unique about Libre Office (if Andreas
agrees). Why not call it Colibre Bar? To keep with the name of the new icon
set? That way we would have an entire Colibre UI (notebookbar+icon set) and
Marketing could run with it when releasing the 6.1 version ("try the
all-new Colibre UI in LO 6.1!").

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 4:30 PM, jan  wrote:

> I agree – while it may be not possible to guarantee that a "official"
> variant will be fixed in time, it would make sense to have one version
> which is the "standard" so that efforts can be focused.
>
> – It might be hard to consider all variants all the time when doing
> changes, same would go for usability tests.
> – And if the notbookbar becomes standard or at least LO gets a "switch
> to notebookbar" button, there needs to be a version that appears.
> Otherwise we let the user make a decision hard to take (what does each
> option do?). We are in a better position to at least determine what is
> most useful most of the time.
>
> Jan
>
> Am 29.03.2018 um 15:36 schrieb Pedro Rosmaninho:
> > Considering that the Notebookbar is maturing and reaching a maturity
> point
> > where it is stable, it would be interesting if there was an official UX
> > team variant developed and improved upon by everyone here. It wouldn't
> have
> > to be the default UI, but something that the UX team would answer to bugs
> > and fix them.
> >
> > The variants included by default with LO should be supported and fixed by
> > the UI team. Otherwise there'll be a bunch of bug reports about something
> > that is not officially supported.
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 2:27 PM, Heiko Tietze 
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On 29.03.2018 15:04, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
> >>> Can I just ask one small thing that I have doubts on?
> >>> Is there no "official" UI design team Notebookbar option?
> >>
> >> The contextual group variant has a foundation [1] but there is nothing
> >> specific for the other variants, which is bad for transparency and
> >> testability. And I have no other idea how to tackle the "official"
> aspect.
> >>
> >> [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/ToolBar
> >>
> >>
> >> (Removed project from x-post)
> >>
> >>
> >
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[jan]

The reason may got lost in the mail –

> …Otherwise we let the user make a decision hard to take
> (what does each option do?).
> We are in a better position to at least determine
> what is most useful most of the time.

Jan

Am 29.03.2018 um 17:52 schrieb Heiko Tietze:
> On 29.03.2018 17:30, jan wrote:
>> ... it would make sense to have one version which is the "standard" ...
> 
> Not opposing the idea but what variant should become the standard and why?
> 
> Btw: There will be no switch but the menu "User interface" (replacing the 
> current "Toolbar Layout" and "Notebookbar" items) with submenu items Standard 
> Toolbar, Single Toolbar, Sidebar... and all variants of the Notebookbar after 
> a separator. 
> 
> 

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[Heiko Tietze]

On 29.03.2018 17:30, jan wrote:
> ... it would make sense to have one version which is the "standard" ...

Not opposing the idea but what variant should become the standard and why?

Btw: There will be no switch but the menu "User interface" (replacing the 
current "Toolbar Layout" and "Notebookbar" items) with submenu items Standard 
Toolbar, Single Toolbar, Sidebar... and all variants of the Notebookbar after a 
separator. 


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[jan]

I agree – while it may be not possible to guarantee that a "official"
variant will be fixed in time, it would make sense to have one version
which is the "standard" so that efforts can be focused.

– It might be hard to consider all variants all the time when doing
changes, same would go for usability tests.
– And if the notbookbar becomes standard or at least LO gets a "switch
to notebookbar" button, there needs to be a version that appears.
Otherwise we let the user make a decision hard to take (what does each
option do?). We are in a better position to at least determine what is
most useful most of the time.

Jan

Am 29.03.2018 um 15:36 schrieb Pedro Rosmaninho:
> Considering that the Notebookbar is maturing and reaching a maturity point
> where it is stable, it would be interesting if there was an official UX
> team variant developed and improved upon by everyone here. It wouldn't have
> to be the default UI, but something that the UX team would answer to bugs
> and fix them.
> 
> The variants included by default with LO should be supported and fixed by
> the UI team. Otherwise there'll be a bunch of bug reports about something
> that is not officially supported.
> 
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 2:27 PM, Heiko Tietze 
> wrote:
> 
>>
>> On 29.03.2018 15:04, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
>>> Can I just ask one small thing that I have doubts on?
>>> Is there no "official" UI design team Notebookbar option?
>>
>> The contextual group variant has a foundation [1] but there is nothing
>> specific for the other variants, which is bad for transparency and
>> testability. And I have no other idea how to tackle the "official" aspect.
>>
>> [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/ToolBar
>>
>>
>> (Removed project from x-post)
>>
>>
> 

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Pedro,

Pedro Rosmaninho wrote on 29-03-18 15:36:

> The variants included by default with LO should be supported and fixed by
> the UI team. Otherwise there'll be a bunch of bug reports about something
> that is not officially supported.

There is no such 'official supported' thing that holds the promise that
team 'X' will fix any issue.
However, anyone can be part of the UI team (and any other) to support
features, improve and fix issues.

Cheers,
Cor

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Plus to keep up with the new Colibre icon set (what a great idea to use a
colibri as the symbol) it would be really cool to have a Colibre
Notebookbar to go with it in 6.1.


On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 2:36 PM, Pedro Rosmaninho 
wrote:

> Considering that the Notebookbar is maturing and reaching a maturity point
> where it is stable, it would be interesting if there was an official UX
> team variant developed and improved upon by everyone here. It wouldn't have
> to be the default UI, but something that the UX team would answer to bugs
> and fix them.
>
> The variants included by default with LO should be supported and fixed by
> the UI team. Otherwise there'll be a bunch of bug reports about something
> that is not officially supported.
>
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 2:27 PM, Heiko Tietze 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 29.03.2018 15:04, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
>> > Can I just ask one small thing that I have doubts on?
>> > Is there no "official" UI design team Notebookbar option?
>>
>> The contextual group variant has a foundation [1] but there is nothing
>> specific for the other variants, which is bad for transparency and
>> testability. And I have no other idea how to tackle the "official" aspect.
>>
>> [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/ToolBar
>>
>>
>> (Removed project from x-post)
>>
>>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Considering that the Notebookbar is maturing and reaching a maturity point
where it is stable, it would be interesting if there was an official UX
team variant developed and improved upon by everyone here. It wouldn't have
to be the default UI, but something that the UX team would answer to bugs
and fix them.

The variants included by default with LO should be supported and fixed by
the UI team. Otherwise there'll be a bunch of bug reports about something
that is not officially supported.

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 2:27 PM, Heiko Tietze 
wrote:

>
> On 29.03.2018 15:04, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
> > Can I just ask one small thing that I have doubts on?
> > Is there no "official" UI design team Notebookbar option?
>
> The contextual group variant has a foundation [1] but there is nothing
> specific for the other variants, which is bad for transparency and
> testability. And I have no other idea how to tackle the "official" aspect.
>
> [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/ToolBar
>
>
> (Removed project from x-post)
>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[Heiko Tietze]

On 29.03.2018 15:04, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
> Can I just ask one small thing that I have doubts on?
> Is there no "official" UI design team Notebookbar option?

The contextual group variant has a foundation [1] but there is nothing specific 
for the other variants, which is bad for transparency and testability. And I 
have no other idea how to tackle the "official" aspect.

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/ToolBar


(Removed project from x-post)


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Can I just ask one small thing that I have doubts on?
Is there no "official" UI design team Notebookbar option?

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 8:06 PM, Heiko Tietze 
wrote:

> Present: Thomas, Heiko
>
>  * Colibre
>+ controversially discussed on the patch; Colibre on Windows merged
>+ please file tickets to make Elementary the default for Gnome and Sifr
> on macOS
>+ tbd: the future of Tango, Tango_testing, Industrial, Galaxy, and
> Crystal
>+ please file tickets to remove these themes (or rather make it an
> extension)
>=> to be continued
>
>  * Combined Toolbar/Notebookbar
>+ http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Merged-Toolbar-Notebookbar-menu-
> tt4236326.html
>+ UI Layout (Pedro)
>  + Standard, Minimal, Sidebar
>  - separator -
>  + Contextual groups, Contextual Minimal, Tabbed, Grouped bar
> Full/Minimal
>(maybe come up with a new name instead of Groupedbar?
>=> User Interface: Standard Toolbar, Single Toolbar, Sidebar, [Sep]
>   Contextual Groups, Contextual Single, Tabbed Compact, Groupedbar,
> Groupedbar Compact
>
>  * Option AutoSpellCheck colour should apply to spelling dialog too
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116566
>+ go with the suggestion (Heiko)
>=> no other opinions, so agreed with the change:
>   background and foreground color should respect user settings
>
>  * Fill Cells commands in button menu too short
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115485
>+ "Move" up/down/left/right (boring repetition though)
>+ the function is "Fill" (up/down...)
>+ also avail per Sheet > Fill Cells > Up/Down... (acceptable here)
>=> Better we remove the fill commands from the toolbar menu (Thomas,
> Heiko)
>
>  * Checkbox for zero values to be handled like missing values in plot
> options
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115513
>+ Extra option or respect Tools > Options > Calc > View
>=> postponed
>
>  * Shortcut to open/close the side bar
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85850
>+ ctrl+F5?
>+ apparently there is no function to programmatically expand the sidebar
>=> postponed
>
>
>
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[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[Heiko Tietze]

Present: Thomas, Heiko

 * Colibre 
   + controversially discussed on the patch; Colibre on Windows merged
   + please file tickets to make Elementary the default for Gnome and Sifr on 
macOS
   + tbd: the future of Tango, Tango_testing, Industrial, Galaxy, and Crystal
   + please file tickets to remove these themes (or rather make it an extension)
   => to be continued

 * Combined Toolbar/Notebookbar
   + 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Merged-Toolbar-Notebookbar-menu-tt4236326.html
   + UI Layout (Pedro)
 + Standard, Minimal, Sidebar
 - separator -
 + Contextual groups, Contextual Minimal, Tabbed, Grouped bar Full/Minimal
   (maybe come up with a new name instead of Groupedbar?
   => User Interface: Standard Toolbar, Single Toolbar, Sidebar, [Sep]
  Contextual Groups, Contextual Single, Tabbed Compact, Groupedbar, 
Groupedbar Compact

 * Option AutoSpellCheck colour should apply to spelling dialog too
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116566
   + go with the suggestion (Heiko)
   => no other opinions, so agreed with the change:
  background and foreground color should respect user settings

 * Fill Cells commands in button menu too short
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115485
   + "Move" up/down/left/right (boring repetition though)
   + the function is "Fill" (up/down...)
   + also avail per Sheet > Fill Cells > Up/Down... (acceptable here)
   => Better we remove the fill commands from the toolbar menu (Thomas, Heiko)

 * Checkbox for zero values to be handled like missing values in plot options
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115513
   + Extra option or respect Tools > Options > Calc > View
   => postponed

 * Shortcut to open/close the side bar
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85850
   + ctrl+F5?
   + apparently there is no function to programmatically expand the sidebar
   => postponed



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