Re: [libreoffice-design] Survey about Libreoffice Draw

[Heiko Tietze]

To conclude the replies so far: Andrea's and Jan-Marek's approach to Draw is 
vector drawing in terms of flow charts like MS Visio, or yed [1]. Regina adds 
many more aspects so it would be more like Inkscape. With the competitor 
Calligra/Krita in mind we could also aim to address art work. And my idea was 
to offer the alternative of simplicity and "drop Draw as standalone tool" 
(read this as: put effort in the integration of drawing features into the 
primary apps). That was the reason for the most controversial question for 
"Simple outlines" and "embed drawings...". 

[1] https://www.yworks.com/products/yed

On Tuesday, 2 February 2016 18:58:57 CET Regina Henschel wrote:
> "Simple outlines": The word "outline" is used for "document structure"
> in Writer and is confusing here.

On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 12:18:58 CET kainz.a wrote:
> It's an drawing programm for an office suite so the focus would be what do
> you do in your office.

On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 11:54:49 CET Jan-Marek Glogowski wrote:
> 1. Bug 83360, which effected the result of our converted output
> 2. A much larger standard symbol set in Flow for technical diagrams
> 
> From my personal POV, which is of a non-user of these tool, LO probably
> just needs an additional interface preset for Flow charts, ...

On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 06:36:51 CET Steve Edmonds wrote:
> the survey goes to ... 
Well spotted. It forwards now to the LibO Design blog.
> Is the question "What do you expect from Libreoffice Draw in the
> future?" meant to cover "Where would you like to see improvements".
Yes, added for clarification.
-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Survey about Libreoffice Draw

[Jan-Marek Glogowski]

Hi,

just as an other data point I want to give you some information, why  we
(as City of Munich) added Calligra Flow to edit flowcharts / ODG based
flow diagrams.

We originally used Kivio in KDE3 and 1 1/2 years ago we were faced with
the problem, that users had a lot of Kivio files, which weren't readable
by any other program then Kivio, As Kivio was part of KOffice, it wasn't
available for KDE4 and long dead.

In the end we wrote a converter to convert kivio to odg. This works
great for us, but we saw two main problems with Draw:

1. Bug 83360, which effected the result of our converted output
2. A much larger standard symbol set in Flow for technical diagrams

From my personal POV, which is of a non-user of these tool, LO probably
just needs an additional interface preset for Flow charts, and a new
"new filetype", just like the special wizards for labels, business cards
etc., and save this custom setting in the odg file.

Just defaulting to an open gallery side bar and enabling the grid makes
Draw look much like known Flow charting programs like MS Visio or Kivio,
which people feel already familiar with.

I didn't check the licenses of dia and calligra flow clip art galleries.
That even may be a good collaboration point and is probably easily fixable.

HTH

Jan-Marek

P.S. I don't see the online searchable, extension based openclipart
gallery as an alternative to a well defined, integrated flowchart
gallery set.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Survey about Libreoffice Draw

[Heiko Tietze]

>I'm a Draw power user.
Obviously :-)

>Tools besides Layer
Your approach to Draw is clearly the vector drawing features as kind of an
alternative to Inkscape. But what if most people understand it (or want it
to evolve into) rather as a tool for pixel manipulation? Or if the majority
does not care about those features at all?
And depending on how people see the tool it has to offer the right tooling
features. Your examples are good ideas to improve UX when it develops as a
vectoring tool. So I'd drop those questions from the current survey. But
I'm open to more opinions.

>Import and export
Added for both vector as well as raster graphics

>Size
Good idea, added.

>target medium
Sounds interesting but does it reveal any actionable outcome?

>another application
Should we ask freely or give some options like Inkscape, Gimp, Krita, Adobe
Foo and Bar? Would it be good to ask for "graphics manipulation tools" or
do we split the question into raster and vector graphics?

>outlines, wireframes, flowchart
How about just the free question "For what purpose do you apply Draw"? Is
the average user able to answer it?

Thanks a lot for your comments. Survey begins to take off.

Cheers,
Heiko

2016-02-02 18:58 GMT+01:00 Regina Henschel :

> Hallo Heiko,
>
> some aspects are missing:
>
> * Tools besides Layer. They are essential for me. E.g.: Duplicate, Point
> manipulation, interactive gradient, various kind of transparency,
> 3D-Scenes, several snap features, alignment, position,
> transformations, 3000% zoom, text along path, raster to vector converter,
> master page elements.
>
> * Import and export, e.g. I use Draw for export to svg and to import svg
> and do not use Inkscape.
>
> * What size of drawings are used?
>
> * What is the target medium? usual (home-) printer, print on large paper
> (Din A0) or to plotter, making postcards, prepare for external book
> printing, produce ebooks, prepare drawings for websites,...
>
> * How often does the user need help to perform a task; where does he get
> help.
>
> * What does the user miss in Draw? (e.g. real CMKY, full featured text
> incl. Math formula, easier handling of ...)
>
> * Does the user use another application similar to Draw instead of Draw?
>
>
>
> In the current questions there are some terms, which I think should be
> improved:
>
> "Simple outlines": The word "outline" is used for "document structure" in
> Writer and is confusing here.
>
> "wireframes" and "form controls" do not fit together, so the question is
> unclear.
>
> "Flowchart": I would add "organigram" and delete "hierarchical".
>
> "Freeform curves": That is only a very special kind of curve and not the
> most important one. Important are paths and Bezier curves.
>
>
>
> I would enumerate the questions in kind k/n (k-th question of n questions
> total)
>
>
>
> I'm a Draw power user.
>
> Kind regards
> Regina
>
>
> Heiko Tietze schrieb:
>
> Hi folks,
>>
>> some time ago we talked about dogfooding. Unfortunately it never comes to
>> a
>> publication but we realized that Draw is kind of a strange beast.
>>
>> To understand how users understand the tool and what they expect in the
>> future I prepared a blog post and a survey. And I'd ask you to check both.
>> Is there anything to improve? Do you have any other question that fit into
>> the current topic (not too detailed stuff)?
>>
>> The draft for the text can be found at
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1W6aIpZhQo7j33f8W3p_nXLAd6tamwjtUxZFx77jArcU/edit#
>> and the survey running in test mode (data will not be counted for the
>> result) here
>> http://user-weave.com/survey/83bc38b278fe4d25be035bb5ae42fa01?27
>>
>> Would be great when we can decide on Friday about the publication.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Heiko
>>
>>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Survey about Libreoffice Draw

[Steve Edmonds]

Hi.
Very good Heiko. At the end after the last click (Next tab on page 3) 
the survey goes to http://www.user-weave.net/start.html. I don't know 
how much control you have but https://www.libreoffice.org/ would be better.


Is the question "What do you expect from Libreoffice Draw in the 
future?" meant to cover "Where would you like to see improvements".


steve

On 3/02/16 5:24 AM, Heiko Tietze wrote:

Hi folks,

some time ago we talked about dogfooding. Unfortunately it never comes to a
publication but we realized that Draw is kind of a strange beast.

To understand how users understand the tool and what they expect in the
future I prepared a blog post and a survey. And I'd ask you to check both.
Is there anything to improve? Do you have any other question that fit into
the current topic (not too detailed stuff)?

The draft for the text can be found at
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1W6aIpZhQo7j33f8W3p_nXLAd6tamwjtUxZFx77jArcU/edit#
and the survey running in test mode (data will not be counted for the
result) here
http://user-weave.com/survey/83bc38b278fe4d25be035bb5ae42fa01?27

Would be great when we can decide on Friday about the publication.

Cheers,
Heiko




--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-design] Survey about Libreoffice Draw

[Regina Henschel]

Hallo Heiko,

some aspects are missing:

* Tools besides Layer. They are essential for me. E.g.: Duplicate, Point 
manipulation, interactive gradient, various kind of transparency, 
3D-Scenes, several snap features, alignment, position, 
transformations, 3000% zoom, text along path, raster to vector 
converter, master page elements.


* Import and export, e.g. I use Draw for export to svg and to import svg 
and do not use Inkscape.


* What size of drawings are used?

* What is the target medium? usual (home-) printer, print on large paper 
(Din A0) or to plotter, making postcards, prepare for external book 
printing, produce ebooks, prepare drawings for websites,...


* How often does the user need help to perform a task; where does he get 
help.


* What does the user miss in Draw? (e.g. real CMKY, full featured text 
incl. Math formula, easier handling of ...)


* Does the user use another application similar to Draw instead of Draw?



In the current questions there are some terms, which I think should be 
improved:


"Simple outlines": The word "outline" is used for "document structure" 
in Writer and is confusing here.


"wireframes" and "form controls" do not fit together, so the question is 
unclear.


"Flowchart": I would add "organigram" and delete "hierarchical".

"Freeform curves": That is only a very special kind of curve and not the 
most important one. Important are paths and Bezier curves.




I would enumerate the questions in kind k/n (k-th question of n 
questions total)




I'm a Draw power user.

Kind regards
Regina


Heiko Tietze schrieb:

Hi folks,

some time ago we talked about dogfooding. Unfortunately it never comes to a
publication but we realized that Draw is kind of a strange beast.

To understand how users understand the tool and what they expect in the
future I prepared a blog post and a survey. And I'd ask you to check both.
Is there anything to improve? Do you have any other question that fit into
the current topic (not too detailed stuff)?

The draft for the text can be found at
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1W6aIpZhQo7j33f8W3p_nXLAd6tamwjtUxZFx77jArcU/edit#
and the survey running in test mode (data will not be counted for the
result) here
http://user-weave.com/survey/83bc38b278fe4d25be035bb5ae42fa01?27

Would be great when we can decide on Friday about the publication.

Cheers,
Heiko




--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted