Re: Openness (Was: Re: Module Proposal: Zeitgeist)
On Sun, 2012-04-22 at 20:45 +0300, Rūdolfs Mazurs wrote: Does design team use anything like meetbot? http://meetbot.debian.net/Manual.html As far as I know still no bots are used for managing and logging any GNOME IRC meetings. Also see the short discussion here: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2011-May/msg00072.html On a related note I once started a draft to list teams and meetings on a central wikipage as an attempt to make collaboration and contribution slightly more accessible and transparent for interested parties: https://live.gnome.org/AndreKlapper/IrcMeetings If you or anybody else feels like pushing this goal, please go ahead as I don't plan to pick this up soon again (busy with other stuff). Thanks, andre -- mailto:ak...@gmx.net | failed http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Openness (Was: Re: Module Proposal: Zeitgeist)
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:54 PM, Andre Klapper ak...@gmx.net wrote: On Sun, 2012-04-22 at 20:45 +0300, Rūdolfs Mazurs wrote: Does design team use anything like meetbot? http://meetbot.debian.net/Manual.html The A11y team has a meetbot for logging meetings. They are the only team I know of that does. https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings Meg Ford As far as I know still no bots are used for managing and logging any GNOME IRC meetings. Also see the short discussion here: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2011-May/msg00072.html On a related note I once started a draft to list teams and meetings on a central wikipage as an attempt to make collaboration and contribution slightly more accessible and transparent for interested parties: https://live.gnome.org/AndreKlapper/IrcMeetings If you or anybody else feels like pushing this goal, please go ahead as I don't plan to pick this up soon again (busy with other stuff). Thanks, andre -- mailto:ak...@gmx.net | failed http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Openness (Was: Re: Module Proposal: Zeitgeist)
On Sun, 2012-04-22 at 18:21 +0200, Florian Max wrote: Which brings us to the matter of openness: the results of everything the design team does ends up on the GNOME wiki under live.gnome.org/Design. I think people are more concerned about being able to have input on the process, not on seeing the results published on the wiki. I'm on #gnome-design all day. I often skim the backlog. I don't really see the discussion that leads to the results. Sometimes I see mention of meetings. I don't know where those meetings happen. Of course it would be really fancy if the wiki also contained the reasoning behind decisions, but let's face it - none of us does anything like that (I doubt you are adding comments like Using a full-blown GObject rather than a boxed type here because ... or This variable is a double and not an integer because ... to your code - I certainly don't. Still, wouldn't that be helpful for newcomers?). That sounds like exactly the sort of thing I write in my git commit messages. I hope you do too. -- Shaun ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Openness (Was: Re: Module Proposal: Zeitgeist)
Sv, 2012-04-22 12:36 -0400, Shaun McCance rakstīja: On Sun, 2012-04-22 at 18:21 +0200, Florian Max wrote: Which brings us to the matter of openness: the results of everything the design team does ends up on the GNOME wiki under live.gnome.org/Design. I think people are more concerned about being able to have input on the process, not on seeing the results published on the wiki. I'm on #gnome-design all day. I often skim the backlog. I don't really see the discussion that leads to the results. Sometimes I see mention of meetings. I don't know where those meetings happen. Does design team use anything like meetbot? http://meetbot.debian.net/Manual.html ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Openness (Was: Re: Module Proposal: Zeitgeist)
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Shaun McCance sha...@gnome.org wrote: On Sun, 2012-04-22 at 18:21 +0200, Florian Max wrote: Which brings us to the matter of openness: the results of everything the design team does ends up on the GNOME wiki under live.gnome.org/Design. I think people are more concerned about being able to have input on the process, not on seeing the results published on the wiki. I'm on #gnome-design all day. I often skim the backlog. I don't really see the discussion that leads to the results. Sometimes I see mention of meetings. I don't know where those meetings happen. Exactly. Non-designers want to be part of the process. Reasons behind decisions need to be written somewhere, but that is not enough. If a new a developer comes and asks for reasons behind a decisions, I doubt that the designers, who are already as busy as it gets, can take time to explain each one who comes over what problem is being solved via the design and how. So having design decisions and their reasoning documented would help. But also as designers it is their responsibility to communicate with those who still doubt these decisions, starting with those willing to implement or help out directly. Because if they can explain to those nearest to them, those can then jump in to help others. So I think my point here is. Documenting is important but communication is key. I get it when designers think that they can spend your whole time trying to convince people of a vision, but at some point something needs to be done. I agree to a certain extent. But who will do it? The paid developers. Well this would make us lose the community on the long run. We need to work on communication between designers and developers. Build trust. Designers have to take time and push themselves to be patient with developers and explain to them seems to them to be trivial facts. Once developers understand how hard a designers job is they will respect it and trust in the decisions and vision, even if they don't agree in the beginning. But also designers need to work on growing they base. The entry level is not that easy I guess. We need to work on basics. If someone comes with designs that are not suitable for us, we can't just pus him away. The fact that he/she came over to discuss designs with us shows initiative to contribute. So some slight wording like You know that is really good, I am not sure how it can fit in our designs but would you try taking this view out and show me etc... We are not selling GNOME to consumers only. We are selling the community too. I like the subject of this thread, because openness does not only reflect on the decisions making process but also on the openness to accept new contributors. Cheers Seif Of course it would be really fancy if the wiki also contained the reasoning behind decisions, but let's face it - none of us does anything like that (I doubt you are adding comments like Using a full-blown GObject rather than a boxed type here because ... or This variable is a double and not an integer because ... to your code - I certainly don't. Still, wouldn't that be helpful for newcomers?). That sounds like exactly the sort of thing I write in my git commit messages. I hope you do too. -- Shaun ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Openness (Was: Re: Module Proposal: Zeitgeist)
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Seif Lotfy s...@lotfy.com wrote: On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Shaun McCance sha...@gnome.org wrote: On Sun, 2012-04-22 at 18:21 +0200, Florian Max wrote: Which brings us to the matter of openness: the results of everything the design team does ends up on the GNOME wiki under live.gnome.org/Design. I think people are more concerned about being able to have input on the process, not on seeing the results published on the wiki. I'm on #gnome-design all day. I often skim the backlog. I don't really see the discussion that leads to the results. Sometimes I see mention of meetings. I don't know where those meetings happen. Exactly. Non-designers want to be part of the process. Reasons behind decisions need to be written somewhere, but that is not enough. If a new a developer comes and asks for reasons behind a decisions, I doubt that the designers, who are already as busy as it gets, can take time to explain each one who comes over what problem is being solved via the design and how. So having design decisions and their reasoning documented would help. But also as designers it is their responsibility to communicate with those who still doubt these decisions, starting with those willing to implement or help out directly. Because if they can explain to those nearest to them, those can then jump in to help others. No, you get volunteer community managers to communicate those design decisions. A community manager should be able to get a general feel of what design decisions are having issues with the community. At some point maybe sucha person can opt for a conversation with specific individuals but otherwise you know there are a lot of unreasonable people out here and the internet makes them more unreasonable than they would be usually. Luckily for us, we do have a number of people who couldu do that kind of community management, Olav for one has already been doing some of it. I do it more externally. Big projects like Mozilla have a community managers. It's definitely something this project should do more of. sri ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Openness (Was: Re: Module Proposal: Zeitgeist)
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 10:18 PM, Sriram Ramkrishna s...@ramkrishna.me wrote: On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Seif Lotfy s...@lotfy.com wrote: On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Shaun McCance sha...@gnome.org wrote: On Sun, 2012-04-22 at 18:21 +0200, Florian Max wrote: Which brings us to the matter of openness: the results of everything the design team does ends up on the GNOME wiki under live.gnome.org/Design. I think people are more concerned about being able to have input on the process, not on seeing the results published on the wiki. I'm on #gnome-design all day. I often skim the backlog. I don't really see the discussion that leads to the results. Sometimes I see mention of meetings. I don't know where those meetings happen. Exactly. Non-designers want to be part of the process. Reasons behind decisions need to be written somewhere, but that is not enough. If a new a developer comes and asks for reasons behind a decisions, I doubt that the designers, who are already as busy as it gets, can take time to explain each one who comes over what problem is being solved via the design and how. So having design decisions and their reasoning documented would help. But also as designers it is their responsibility to communicate with those who still doubt these decisions, starting with those willing to implement or help out directly. Because if they can explain to those nearest to them, those can then jump in to help others. No, you get volunteer community managers to communicate those design decisions. A community manager should be able to get a general feel of what design decisions are having issues with the community. At some point maybe sucha person can opt for a conversation with specific individuals but otherwise you know there are a lot of unreasonable people out here and the internet makes them more unreasonable than they would be usually. Good point. With community managers, designers can focus more. Still I think a minimal interaction with the community from the designers side is required. I think going with some kind of liaison is a good direction. Luckily for us, we do have a number of people who couldu do that kind of community management, Olav for one has already been doing some of it. I do it more externally. Are you talking about Olav Bacon :P (bad joke, trying to lighten the mood a bit) Big projects like Mozilla have a community managers. It's definitely something this project should do more of. Dave Eaves who is a Mozilla Community manager has a very nice talk I encourage everybody to watch it. http://blip.tv/djangocon/keynote-david-eaves-5571777 sri Seif ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
