Re: Re: Re: Maven plugin naming pattern

2014-10-10 Thread Michael Osipov
If you do a quick search on Central, you'll that even other Apache project
don't adhere to this convention. Should they receive a CD too?

Michael

 We just need to show best effort to defend our trademark... if we *see*
 anyone doing that then we have to send them CD letters...
 
 Note: my understanding is that we only have to send CD letters when we
 know somebody is abusing our mark... we don't necessarily have to go
 actively looking for people abusing our mark... just if we went looking and
 found any then we have to send them CDs quite quickly
 
 On 10 October 2014 12:45, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:42 AM, Stephen Connolly
  stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com wrote:
   We, the PMC, agreed to allow permitted usage of the form ___-maven-plugin
   as that clarified that the plugin was a plugin for maven not one produced
   by maven
 
  Yea, I know, and I'm not opposed to making the tooling more
  obstreperous. I'm just warning people not to have high hopes of
  enforcement for anyone who chooses to hack the tooling and not
  cooperate.
 
  
   On 10 October 2014 12:40, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
   Keep in mind that what we have here is almost certainly a
   _convention_, not a point of trademark law. As I understand it, we'd
   as likely be laughed at for the suggestion that reversing the order of
   the components of a name leads to 'marketplace confusion' at the level
   at which trademarks can be enforced.
  
   On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:25 AM, Michael Osipov 1983-01...@gmx.net
   wrote:
They should rename going forward.
   
At some point (probably we could do so now) we will turn on
  enforcement
   in
the maven-plugin-plugin.
   
This will of course piss of a lot of people. Wouldn't it?
   
There are, of course, several reasons why people can't:
   
1. Popularity of the old name
2. Technical reasons
3. Name collisions
   
etc.
   
Even if we enforce this, this should not happen before Maven 4 and
   should be added to the plugin dev center.
   
Michael
   
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Re: Re: Re: Maven plugin naming pattern

2014-10-10 Thread Stephen Connolly
Yes

On 10 October 2014 13:12, Michael Osipov 1983-01...@gmx.net wrote:

 If you do a quick search on Central, you'll that even other Apache project
 don't adhere to this convention. Should they receive a CD too?

 Michael

  We just need to show best effort to defend our trademark... if we *see*
  anyone doing that then we have to send them CD letters...
 
  Note: my understanding is that we only have to send CD letters when we
  know somebody is abusing our mark... we don't necessarily have to go
  actively looking for people abusing our mark... just if we went looking
 and
  found any then we have to send them CDs quite quickly
 
  On 10 October 2014 12:45, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
   On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:42 AM, Stephen Connolly
   stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com wrote:
We, the PMC, agreed to allow permitted usage of the form
 ___-maven-plugin
as that clarified that the plugin was a plugin for maven not one
 produced
by maven
  
   Yea, I know, and I'm not opposed to making the tooling more
   obstreperous. I'm just warning people not to have high hopes of
   enforcement for anyone who chooses to hack the tooling and not
   cooperate.
  
   
On 10 October 2014 12:40, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   
Keep in mind that what we have here is almost certainly a
_convention_, not a point of trademark law. As I understand it, we'd
as likely be laughed at for the suggestion that reversing the order
 of
the components of a name leads to 'marketplace confusion' at the
 level
at which trademarks can be enforced.
   
On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:25 AM, Michael Osipov 1983-01...@gmx.net
 
wrote:
 They should rename going forward.

 At some point (probably we could do so now) we will turn on
   enforcement
in
 the maven-plugin-plugin.

 This will of course piss of a lot of people. Wouldn't it?

 There are, of course, several reasons why people can't:

 1. Popularity of the old name
 2. Technical reasons
 3. Name collisions

 etc.

 Even if we enforce this, this should not happen before Maven 4 and
should be added to the plugin dev center.

 Michael


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Re: Re: Re: Maven plugin naming pattern

2014-10-10 Thread Stephen Connolly
Thankfully for you, you are not on the PMC... if you were on the PMC and
you did such a search you would then have to go and send CDs.

/me runs away from this thread in case I happen to be made aware of any
trademark misuse ;-)

On 10 October 2014 13:39, Stephen Connolly stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Yes

 On 10 October 2014 13:12, Michael Osipov 1983-01...@gmx.net wrote:

 If you do a quick search on Central, you'll that even other Apache project
 don't adhere to this convention. Should they receive a CD too?

 Michael

  We just need to show best effort to defend our trademark... if we *see*
  anyone doing that then we have to send them CD letters...
 
  Note: my understanding is that we only have to send CD letters when we
  know somebody is abusing our mark... we don't necessarily have to go
  actively looking for people abusing our mark... just if we went looking
 and
  found any then we have to send them CDs quite quickly
 
  On 10 October 2014 12:45, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
   On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:42 AM, Stephen Connolly
   stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com wrote:
We, the PMC, agreed to allow permitted usage of the form
 ___-maven-plugin
as that clarified that the plugin was a plugin for maven not one
 produced
by maven
  
   Yea, I know, and I'm not opposed to making the tooling more
   obstreperous. I'm just warning people not to have high hopes of
   enforcement for anyone who chooses to hack the tooling and not
   cooperate.
  
   
On 10 October 2014 12:40, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   
Keep in mind that what we have here is almost certainly a
_convention_, not a point of trademark law. As I understand it,
 we'd
as likely be laughed at for the suggestion that reversing the
 order of
the components of a name leads to 'marketplace confusion' at the
 level
at which trademarks can be enforced.
   
On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:25 AM, Michael Osipov 
 1983-01...@gmx.net
wrote:
 They should rename going forward.

 At some point (probably we could do so now) we will turn on
   enforcement
in
 the maven-plugin-plugin.

 This will of course piss of a lot of people. Wouldn't it?

 There are, of course, several reasons why people can't:

 1. Popularity of the old name
 2. Technical reasons
 3. Name collisions

 etc.

 Even if we enforce this, this should not happen before Maven 4
 and
should be added to the plugin dev center.

 Michael


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Re: Re: Re: Re: Maven plugin naming pattern

2014-10-10 Thread Michael Osipov
Yes, resposibility isn't always good.

Shouldn't simply make the build fail instead of log when such a collision 
happens?

Michael

 Thankfully for you, you are not on the PMC... if you were on the PMC and
 you did such a search you would then have to go and send CDs.
 
 /me runs away from this thread in case I happen to be made aware of any
 trademark misuse ;-)
 
 On 10 October 2014 13:39, Stephen Connolly stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  Yes
 
  On 10 October 2014 13:12, Michael Osipov 1983-01...@gmx.net wrote:
 
  If you do a quick search on Central, you'll that even other Apache project
  don't adhere to this convention. Should they receive a CD too?
 
  Michael
 
   We just need to show best effort to defend our trademark... if we *see*
   anyone doing that then we have to send them CD letters...
  
   Note: my understanding is that we only have to send CD letters when we
   know somebody is abusing our mark... we don't necessarily have to go
   actively looking for people abusing our mark... just if we went looking
  and
   found any then we have to send them CDs quite quickly
  
   On 10 October 2014 12:45, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:42 AM, Stephen Connolly
stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com wrote:
 We, the PMC, agreed to allow permitted usage of the form
  ___-maven-plugin
 as that clarified that the plugin was a plugin for maven not one
  produced
 by maven
   
Yea, I know, and I'm not opposed to making the tooling more
obstreperous. I'm just warning people not to have high hopes of
enforcement for anyone who chooses to hack the tooling and not
cooperate.
   

 On 10 October 2014 12:40, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Keep in mind that what we have here is almost certainly a
 _convention_, not a point of trademark law. As I understand it,
  we'd
 as likely be laughed at for the suggestion that reversing the
  order of
 the components of a name leads to 'marketplace confusion' at the
  level
 at which trademarks can be enforced.

 On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:25 AM, Michael Osipov 
  1983-01...@gmx.net
 wrote:
  They should rename going forward.
 
  At some point (probably we could do so now) we will turn on
enforcement
 in
  the maven-plugin-plugin.
 
  This will of course piss of a lot of people. Wouldn't it?
 
  There are, of course, several reasons why people can't:
 
  1. Popularity of the old name
  2. Technical reasons
  3. Name collisions
 
  etc.
 
  Even if we enforce this, this should not happen before Maven 4
  and
 should be added to the plugin dev center.
 
  Michael
 
 
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Maven plugin naming pattern

2014-10-10 Thread Stephen Connolly
That was the plan 3 years ago we decided to warn first and then switch
on failing after a while... now is a good time, perhaps you could commit
the change to fail the build?

On 10 October 2014 13:48, Michael Osipov 1983-01...@gmx.net wrote:

 Yes, resposibility isn't always good.

 Shouldn't simply make the build fail instead of log when such a collision
 happens?

 Michael

  Thankfully for you, you are not on the PMC... if you were on the PMC and
  you did such a search you would then have to go and send CDs.
 
  /me runs away from this thread in case I happen to be made aware of any
  trademark misuse ;-)
 
  On 10 October 2014 13:39, Stephen Connolly 
 stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
   Yes
  
   On 10 October 2014 13:12, Michael Osipov 1983-01...@gmx.net wrote:
  
   If you do a quick search on Central, you'll that even other Apache
 project
   don't adhere to this convention. Should they receive a CD too?
  
   Michael
  
We just need to show best effort to defend our trademark... if we
 *see*
anyone doing that then we have to send them CD letters...
   
Note: my understanding is that we only have to send CD letters
 when we
know somebody is abusing our mark... we don't necessarily have to go
actively looking for people abusing our mark... just if we went
 looking
   and
found any then we have to send them CDs quite quickly
   
On 10 October 2014 12:45, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   
 On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:42 AM, Stephen Connolly
 stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com wrote:
  We, the PMC, agreed to allow permitted usage of the form
   ___-maven-plugin
  as that clarified that the plugin was a plugin for maven not one
   produced
  by maven

 Yea, I know, and I'm not opposed to making the tooling more
 obstreperous. I'm just warning people not to have high hopes of
 enforcement for anyone who chooses to hack the tooling and not
 cooperate.

 
  On 10 October 2014 12:40, Benson Margulies 
 bimargul...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  Keep in mind that what we have here is almost certainly a
  _convention_, not a point of trademark law. As I understand it,
   we'd
  as likely be laughed at for the suggestion that reversing the
   order of
  the components of a name leads to 'marketplace confusion' at
 the
   level
  at which trademarks can be enforced.
 
  On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:25 AM, Michael Osipov 
   1983-01...@gmx.net
  wrote:
   They should rename going forward.
  
   At some point (probably we could do so now) we will turn on
 enforcement
  in
   the maven-plugin-plugin.
  
   This will of course piss of a lot of people. Wouldn't it?
  
   There are, of course, several reasons why people can't:
  
   1. Popularity of the old name
   2. Technical reasons
   3. Name collisions
  
   etc.
  
   Even if we enforce this, this should not happen before Maven
 4
   and
  should be added to the plugin dev center.
  
   Michael
  
  
   -
   To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org
   For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@maven.apache.org
  
 
 
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maven plugin naming pattern

2014-10-10 Thread Michael Osipov
Fine, I'd like to note that first:

1. Shouldn't we announce this publically on the users mailing list?
2. I think that this deserves a major bump in plugin version. WDYT?

Michael

 Gesendet: Freitag, 10. Oktober 2014 um 15:23 Uhr
 Von: Stephen Connolly stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com
 An: Maven Developers List dev@maven.apache.org
 Betreff: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maven plugin naming pattern

 That was the plan 3 years ago we decided to warn first and then switch
 on failing after a while... now is a good time, perhaps you could commit
 the change to fail the build?
 
 On 10 October 2014 13:48, Michael Osipov 1983-01...@gmx.net wrote:
 
  Yes, resposibility isn't always good.
 
  Shouldn't simply make the build fail instead of log when such a collision
  happens?
 
  Michael
 
   Thankfully for you, you are not on the PMC... if you were on the PMC and
   you did such a search you would then have to go and send CDs.
  
   /me runs away from this thread in case I happen to be made aware of any
   trademark misuse ;-)
  
   On 10 October 2014 13:39, Stephen Connolly 
  stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com
   wrote:
  
Yes
   
On 10 October 2014 13:12, Michael Osipov 1983-01...@gmx.net wrote:
   
If you do a quick search on Central, you'll that even other Apache
  project
don't adhere to this convention. Should they receive a CD too?
   
Michael
   
 We just need to show best effort to defend our trademark... if we
  *see*
 anyone doing that then we have to send them CD letters...

 Note: my understanding is that we only have to send CD letters
  when we
 know somebody is abusing our mark... we don't necessarily have to go
 actively looking for people abusing our mark... just if we went
  looking
and
 found any then we have to send them CDs quite quickly

 On 10 October 2014 12:45, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com
wrote:

  On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:42 AM, Stephen Connolly
  stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com wrote:
   We, the PMC, agreed to allow permitted usage of the form
___-maven-plugin
   as that clarified that the plugin was a plugin for maven not one
produced
   by maven
 
  Yea, I know, and I'm not opposed to making the tooling more
  obstreperous. I'm just warning people not to have high hopes of
  enforcement for anyone who chooses to hack the tooling and not
  cooperate.
 
  
   On 10 October 2014 12:40, Benson Margulies 
  bimargul...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
   Keep in mind that what we have here is almost certainly a
   _convention_, not a point of trademark law. As I understand it,
we'd
   as likely be laughed at for the suggestion that reversing the
order of
   the components of a name leads to 'marketplace confusion' at
  the
level
   at which trademarks can be enforced.
  
   On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:25 AM, Michael Osipov 
1983-01...@gmx.net
   wrote:
They should rename going forward.
   
At some point (probably we could do so now) we will turn on
  enforcement
   in
the maven-plugin-plugin.
   
This will of course piss of a lot of people. Wouldn't it?
   
There are, of course, several reasons why people can't:
   
1. Popularity of the old name
2. Technical reasons
3. Name collisions
   
etc.
   
Even if we enforce this, this should not happen before Maven
  4
and
   should be added to the plugin dev center.
   
Michael
   
   
-
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maven plugin naming pattern

2014-10-10 Thread Paul Benedict
I would prefer this should be part of Maven Core's warning system. If the
plugin starts with maven- and it's not an org.apache.maven.plugins group,
then we should spit out the error. I am not sure enforcer is the right
place for this rule; this is more of a global problem than a suggestion for
good practice.


Cheers,
Paul

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 8:30 AM, Michael Osipov 1983-01...@gmx.net wrote:

 Fine, I'd like to note that first:

 1. Shouldn't we announce this publically on the users mailing list?
 2. I think that this deserves a major bump in plugin version. WDYT?

 Michael

  Gesendet: Freitag, 10. Oktober 2014 um 15:23 Uhr
  Von: Stephen Connolly stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com
  An: Maven Developers List dev@maven.apache.org
  Betreff: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maven plugin naming pattern
 
  That was the plan 3 years ago we decided to warn first and then
 switch
  on failing after a while... now is a good time, perhaps you could commit
  the change to fail the build?
 
  On 10 October 2014 13:48, Michael Osipov 1983-01...@gmx.net wrote:
 
   Yes, resposibility isn't always good.
  
   Shouldn't simply make the build fail instead of log when such a
 collision
   happens?
  
   Michael
  
Thankfully for you, you are not on the PMC... if you were on the PMC
 and
you did such a search you would then have to go and send CDs.
   
/me runs away from this thread in case I happen to be made aware of
 any
trademark misuse ;-)
   
On 10 October 2014 13:39, Stephen Connolly 
   stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com
wrote:
   
 Yes

 On 10 October 2014 13:12, Michael Osipov 1983-01...@gmx.net
 wrote:

 If you do a quick search on Central, you'll that even other Apache
   project
 don't adhere to this convention. Should they receive a CD too?

 Michael

  We just need to show best effort to defend our trademark... if
 we
   *see*
  anyone doing that then we have to send them CD letters...
 
  Note: my understanding is that we only have to send CD letters
   when we
  know somebody is abusing our mark... we don't necessarily have
 to go
  actively looking for people abusing our mark... just if we went
   looking
 and
  found any then we have to send them CDs quite quickly
 
  On 10 October 2014 12:45, Benson Margulies 
 bimargul...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
   On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:42 AM, Stephen Connolly
   stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com wrote:
We, the PMC, agreed to allow permitted usage of the form
 ___-maven-plugin
as that clarified that the plugin was a plugin for maven
 not one
 produced
by maven
  
   Yea, I know, and I'm not opposed to making the tooling more
   obstreperous. I'm just warning people not to have high hopes
 of
   enforcement for anyone who chooses to hack the tooling and not
   cooperate.
  
   
On 10 October 2014 12:40, Benson Margulies 
   bimargul...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   
Keep in mind that what we have here is almost certainly a
_convention_, not a point of trademark law. As I
 understand it,
 we'd
as likely be laughed at for the suggestion that reversing
 the
 order of
the components of a name leads to 'marketplace confusion'
 at
   the
 level
at which trademarks can be enforced.
   
On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 7:25 AM, Michael Osipov 
 1983-01...@gmx.net
wrote:
 They should rename going forward.

 At some point (probably we could do so now) we will
 turn on
   enforcement
in
 the maven-plugin-plugin.

 This will of course piss of a lot of people. Wouldn't it?

 There are, of course, several reasons why people can't:

 1. Popularity of the old name
 2. Technical reasons
 3. Name collisions

 etc.

 Even if we enforce this, this should not happen before
 Maven
   4
 and
should be added to the plugin dev center.

 Michael



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