Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread hiro 
On 6/13/17, Cág  wrote:
> So, to summarise:
>
> Browsers suck because web sucks
> C++ sucks
> Android sucks
> Python sucks
> Java sucks
> Javascript sucks
>
> In other news the sky is blue, water is wet and snow is white.

No, you suck.

Re: Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread hiro 
> Now I reallize that I deeply lacked tact: that question was highly
> unapropriate.

You are unappropriate.

Re: Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread Josuah Demangeon 


sylvain.bertr...@gmail.com:
> worst: it is an obvious troll.
> 
> going to shorten it:
> 
> He's right, computer systems are ultra-secure: viruses and hacks (software and
> hardware) are a very rare thing, they do not happen all the time, at best this
> is an illuminaty conspiracy to make us believe the privilege escalation
> is a fallacy. Java is secure as all web browsers are. Ransomware is vaporware.

Now I reallize that I deeply lacked tact: that question was highly unapropriate.

Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread Hiltjo Posthuma 
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 07:56:46PM +0100, Cág wrote:
> So, to summarise:
> 
> Browsers suck because web sucks
> C++ sucks
> Android sucks
> Python sucks
> Java sucks
> Javascript sucks
> 
> In other news the sky is blue, water is wet and snow is white.
> 

This is not obvious to many, especially if you don't give any reasoning.

It's too bad each thread about HTTP / HTML evolves into a huge trollfest.

-- 
Kind regards,
Hiltjo

Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread lukáš Hozda 
>They both suck in their own, unique, horrible ways. Comparing them is
>like comparing turds and vomits.

It gets even worse when they are combined.

For example Android System WebView is almost 170mb of Java and C++
bloat used to run web bloat from the comfort of other bloated apps

[dev] [sbase] Changing BUFSIZ

2017-06-13 Thread Mattias Andrée 
On Linux, the performance of cat(1) can be doubled
when cat(1):ing from one pipe to another, by compiling
with -DBUFSIZ=(1<<16) (the default pipe capacity).
This is close to optimial for a read(3)/write(3)
implementation.


pgpKj3MyxJW0x.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread Cág 
So, to summarise:

Browsers suck because web sucks
C++ sucks
Android sucks
Python sucks
Java sucks
Javascript sucks

In other news the sky is blue, water is wet and snow is white.

-- 
caóc

Re: Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread sylvain . bertrand 
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 07:39:28PM +0200, hiro wrote:
> this is not a philosophy list, go back to school please.

worst: it is an obvious troll.

going to shorten it:

He's right, computer systems are ultra-secure: viruses and hacks (software and
hardware) are a very rare thing, they do not happen all the time, at best this
is an illuminaty conspiracy to make us believe the privilege escalation
is a fallacy. Java is secure as all web browsers are. Ransomware is vaporware.

-- 
Sylvain

Re: Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread Josuah Demangeon 


On June 13, 2017 7:39:28 PM GMT+02:00, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> this is not a philosophy list, go back to school please.

You are right.  I fooled myself into believing it was for some technical 
reasons.

Re: Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread hiro 
this is not a philosophy list, go back to school please.

On 6/13/17, Josuah Demangeon  wrote:
>
>
> On June 13, 2017 7:29:14 PM GMT+02:00, sylvain.bertr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Only fools believe in computer security.
>> I'm not one of them.
>
> I am curious about the reasons as I am a total beginner
> in that domain.  Do you mind to develop about it ?
>
>

Re: Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread Josuah Demangeon 


On June 13, 2017 7:29:14 PM GMT+02:00, sylvain.bertr...@gmail.com wrote:
> Only fools believe in computer security.
> I'm not one of them.

I am curious about the reasons as I am a total beginner
in that domain.  Do you mind to develop about it ?

Re: Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread sylvain . bertrand 
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 07:12:59PM +0200, Kamil Cholewiński wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2017, sylvain.bertr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > You are being unreasonable here: you are presuming that "computer security"
> > does exist...  but it does not.
> 
> Software does not exist either for that matter, it's just a pattern of
> arbitrarily encoded 0's and 1's.
> 
> "Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy
> condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness
> experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life
> is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom
> with the Weather."


Only fools believe in computer security.
I'm not one of them.

-- 
Sylvain

Re: Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread Kamil Cholewiński 
On Tue, 13 Jun 2017, sylvain.bertr...@gmail.com wrote:
> You are being unreasonable here: you are presuming that "computer security"
> does exist...  but it does not.

Software does not exist either for that matter, it's just a pattern of
arbitrarily encoded 0's and 1's.

"Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy
condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness
experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life
is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom
with the Weather."

Re: Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread sylvain . bertrand 
https://rg3.github.io/youtube-dl/
https://you-get.org/

Since when python3 is suckless?

To run those, you need that pile of sh*t which is python. Why not ruby? lua?
perl? js? php? haskell? squirel? etc... while we are it.

-- 
Sylvain

Re: Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread sylvain . bertrand 
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 05:17:54PM +0200, Kamil Cholewiński wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2017, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > [...] android is doing the right thing: it separates processes by
> > running them as separate users. [...]
> 
> Every respectable OS/distro packages daemons to run as separate users.
> Every respectable piece of software separates privileges and uses
> sandboxing / hardening techniques, like chroot, pledge, yadda yadda.

You are being unreasonable here: you are presuming that "computer security"
does exist...  but it does not.

"Security" is not what matters here. The real matter is a model to partition
the system ressources (cpu/gpu/ram/network/file system ops/etc) a model to
allocate them. You have different levels of partition and allocation:
 - file system modes.
 - sid/uid/gid.
 - control groups.
 - namespaces.
 - etc.

-- 
Sylvain

Re: Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread sylvain . bertrand 
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 10:57:16AM -0400, Calvin Morrison wrote:
> Android is a moving target but this is 'suck-less' right?

Is this a joke? A basic troll attempt?

-- 
Sylvain

Re: Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread Kamil Cholewiński 
On Tue, 13 Jun 2017, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...] android is doing the right thing: it separates processes by
> running them as separate users. [...]

Every respectable OS/distro packages daemons to run as separate users.
Every respectable piece of software separates privileges and uses
sandboxing / hardening techniques, like chroot, pledge, yadda yadda.

Linux the kernel sucks in a lot of ways, but it also does get a lot of
things right. There is a notion of sub-uids and sub-gids, so that
different programs run by ordinary users can each get their own,
separate, unprivileged UID and GID: https://www.mankier.com/1/newuidmap

> Android apps objectively sucks less than webapps.
> [...]
> No, android apps suck even more than webapps, and you lack of objectivity.

They both suck in their own, unique, horrible ways. Comparing them is
like comparing turds and vomits.

If you want a suckless phone TODAY, go get a Nokia 3310, or DIY one
using an Arduino kit. If you want suckless web TODAY, disable
JavaScript.

<3,K.

Re: Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread hiro 
this is stupid. the reason i brought this up is to make clear that
android and linux don't need to be so different, you got it the wrong
way around, i.e. android is doing the right thing: it separates
processes by running them as separate users. the semantic was always
there, but it's something linux retards forgot how to do it seems.

No, android apps suck even more than webapps, and you lack of objectivity.

On 6/13/17, Calvin Morrison  wrote:
> On 13 June 2017 at 09:29, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> linux supports multiple users for permission management.
>
> A hassle at best, quirky at worst. I'd rather have per process permissions.
>
>> on android nothing works either. apps often require random libraries
>> like google play services to be installed and are generally written by
>> comparatively incompetent programmers.
>> android is a moving target.
>
> I uninstalled google play, uninstalled google services, and now use
> f-droid. It has the basic programs I need and is pretty quick. f-droid
> is all open source programs.
>
> Android is a moving target but this is 'suck-less' right? the current
> design philosophy of the internet sucks, I want it to suck less.
> Android apps objectively sucks less than webapps.
>
>

Re: Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread Calvin Morrison 
On 13 June 2017 at 09:29, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> linux supports multiple users for permission management.

A hassle at best, quirky at worst. I'd rather have per process permissions.

> on android nothing works either. apps often require random libraries
> like google play services to be installed and are generally written by
> comparatively incompetent programmers.
> android is a moving target.

I uninstalled google play, uninstalled google services, and now use
f-droid. It has the basic programs I need and is pretty quick. f-droid
is all open source programs.

Android is a moving target but this is 'suck-less' right? the current
design philosophy of the internet sucks, I want it to suck less.
Android apps objectively sucks less than webapps.

Re: Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread hiro 
linux supports multiple users for permission management.
on android nothing works either. apps often require random libraries
like google play services to be installed and are generally written by
comparatively incompetent programmers.
android is a moving target.

On 6/13/17, Calvin Morrison  wrote:
>>> > For youtube, we agree 100%, but it seems that the javascript/modern web
>>> > engine
>>> > combo is used as a kind of DRM... namely the dependency by complexity
>>> > is _on
>>> > purpose_ (see the user agreement of youtube: you MUST use the
>>> > javascript/modern
>>> > web engine video player. [...]
>
> I view it more similarly to the whole Java phenomenon from about 10-15
> years ago. Look we can write once run anywhere, isn't it amazing!
> (it's not).
>
> The sad part is Java does solve many of these problems that HTML/JS
> are resolving, namely complex user dialogs and interfaces being
> portable and easy to access.
>
> That's why I am a proponent of Android. Pull down a native app in 30
> seconds that "just works" on any android, with full features and it
> doesn't rely on some crazy display engine or javascript backend.
>
> The opposite of this, which sucks even more is seeing the pervasion of
> things like JS into projects such as GNOME, and the whole node-js
> thing.
>
> I think having boxed portable apps is actually quite good, and running
> them in their own chroot, or some sort of security container like
> android provides  gives users the ability to limit permissions in a
> hard way.
>
> I don't particuarly like the app interfaces, I don't particularly like
> writing apps for Android, but I think it's a damn sight better than
> the latest and greatest webapp(tm)
>
> Calvin
>
>

Re: Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread Calvin Morrison 
>> > For youtube, we agree 100%, but it seems that the javascript/modern web 
>> > engine
>> > combo is used as a kind of DRM... namely the dependency by complexity is 
>> > _on
>> > purpose_ (see the user agreement of youtube: you MUST use the 
>> > javascript/modern
>> > web engine video player. [...]

I view it more similarly to the whole Java phenomenon from about 10-15
years ago. Look we can write once run anywhere, isn't it amazing!
(it's not).

The sad part is Java does solve many of these problems that HTML/JS
are resolving, namely complex user dialogs and interfaces being
portable and easy to access.

That's why I am a proponent of Android. Pull down a native app in 30
seconds that "just works" on any android, with full features and it
doesn't rely on some crazy display engine or javascript backend.

The opposite of this, which sucks even more is seeing the pervasion of
things like JS into projects such as GNOME, and the whole node-js
thing.

I think having boxed portable apps is actually quite good, and running
them in their own chroot, or some sort of security container like
android provides  gives users the ability to limit permissions in a
hard way.

I don't particuarly like the app interfaces, I don't particularly like
writing apps for Android, but I think it's a damn sight better than
the latest and greatest webapp(tm)

Calvin

Re: Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread Ivan Tham 
Kamil Cholewiński  wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Jun 2017, sylvain.bertr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > When mentioning souldcloud, I usually refer to the "sound editing" feature.
> 
> As a person that does most of his music making in plain old analog
> (including a tape recorder), I miss the point of having a web service
> doing audio stuff, i.e. what can SC do in the browser that I couldn't do
> with a desktop app?
> 
> > For youtube, we agree 100%, but it seems that the javascript/modern web 
> > engine
> > combo is used as a kind of DRM... namely the dependency by complexity is _on
> > purpose_ (see the user agreement of youtube: you MUST use the 
> > javascript/modern
> > web engine video player. [...]
> 
> In principle, in practice youtube-dl[1] still works pretty well ;)
> However not without labor on the part of the developer.
> I suspect there will be a way, as long as YT allows watching videos
> without logging in - which would get a lot of people upset.
> 
> [1]: https://rg3.github.io/youtube-dl/

youtube-dl is quite fat, I prefer you-get which is simpler and smaller.

https://you-get.org/

Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread hiro 
> However not without labor on the part of the developer.

check the script i posted on this mailing list before that doesn't
require any labor on part of the developer since i posted it.

On 6/13/17, Kamil Cholewiński  wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2017, sylvain.bertr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> When mentioning souldcloud, I usually refer to the "sound editing"
>> feature.
>
> As a person that does most of his music making in plain old analog
> (including a tape recorder), I miss the point of having a web service
> doing audio stuff, i.e. what can SC do in the browser that I couldn't do
> with a desktop app?
>
>> For youtube, we agree 100%, but it seems that the javascript/modern web
>> engine
>> combo is used as a kind of DRM... namely the dependency by complexity is
>> _on
>> purpose_ (see the user agreement of youtube: you MUST use the
>> javascript/modern
>> web engine video player. [...]
>
> In principle, in practice youtube-dl[1] still works pretty well ;)
> However not without labor on the part of the developer.
> I suspect there will be a way, as long as YT allows watching videos
> without logging in - which would get a lot of people upset.
>
> [1]: https://rg3.github.io/youtube-dl/
>
>

Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread Kamil Cholewiński 
On Tue, 13 Jun 2017, sylvain.bertr...@gmail.com wrote:
> When mentioning souldcloud, I usually refer to the "sound editing" feature.

As a person that does most of his music making in plain old analog
(including a tape recorder), I miss the point of having a web service
doing audio stuff, i.e. what can SC do in the browser that I couldn't do
with a desktop app?

> For youtube, we agree 100%, but it seems that the javascript/modern web engine
> combo is used as a kind of DRM... namely the dependency by complexity is _on
> purpose_ (see the user agreement of youtube: you MUST use the 
> javascript/modern
> web engine video player. [...]

In principle, in practice youtube-dl[1] still works pretty well ;)
However not without labor on the part of the developer.
I suspect there will be a way, as long as YT allows watching videos
without logging in - which would get a lot of people upset.

[1]: https://rg3.github.io/youtube-dl/

Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread sylvain . bertrand 
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 12:06:38PM +0200, Kamil Cholewiński wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2017, sylvain.bertr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Ofc, some internet sites do provide services which are hard dependent
> > on a rich GUI (I usually mention soundcloud).
> 
> Actually audio and video playback these days can be done with pure HTML
> markup, which is sufficient for a completely bare-bones SoundCloud or
> YouTube replacement, no JS needed.

When mentioning souldcloud, I usually refer to the "sound editing" feature.
They have a web API, but I cannot tell if the mobile app auth web page is
noscript... and even with that, I cannot create an account without a
modern web engine or even log in using an existing user account...

For youtube, we agree 100%, but it seems that the javascript/modern web engine
combo is used as a kind of DRM... namely the dependency by complexity is _on
purpose_ (see the user agreement of youtube: you MUST use the javascript/modern
web engine video player. That's of course is abusive and massively evil).
 and  pointing to a simple dash manifest is enough.

BTW, some of the fast degenerating internet sites are those from google. For
instance, some critical account operations cannot be done without the
javascript/modern web engine combo.

cheers,

-- 
Sylvain

Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread Kamil Cholewiński 
On Tue, 13 Jun 2017, sylvain.bertr...@gmail.com wrote:
> Ofc, some internet sites do provide services which are hard dependent
> on a rich GUI (I usually mention soundcloud).

Actually audio and video playback these days can be done with pure HTML
markup, which is sufficient for a completely bare-bones SoundCloud or
YouTube replacement, no JS needed.

Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread sylvain . bertrand 
On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 02:19:08PM +0200, Hiltjo Posthuma wrote:
> Coming back to the real practical world: until then I try to keep my 
> (personal)
> HTML pages simple[5] and use as little Javascript as possible (no jQuery!).

A noscript web portal should be mandatory for the web sites which the services
they implement are reasonable to be provided through such web portal (at least,
the sites which provide critical services over internet).

If an essential aspect of your web portal is hard-dependent on only 1 line of
javascript driving a modern web engine, game over (a.k.a. you are f*cked).



basic xhtml with basic forms and file upload/download ensure the technical cost 
of
client programs stays in "reasonable" boundaries.
The real "hard" stuff in the web stack is in http and TLS where we have
openssl/libressl/gnutls/nettle/NaCl/etc.



Ofc, some internet sites do provide services which are hard dependent on a rich
GUI (I usually mention soundcloud). Those internet sites should provide a
minimal and simple web API, that to lower the cost of client program
implementation (and to foster credible alternatives, which is a _good_ thing).
But careful... many internet sites using OAuth as their auth API mandates often
the use of a modern web engine which defeats the whole purpose of having a web
API, namely to have platforms free of any modern web engine.



As I stated here before, fixing this hardly can be done in a "nice and gentle 
way":
  - either you contact the web devs, they understand and fix the issue (most of 
the time it's dirt cheap).
  - or they send you to hell and you have to go legal if the service is 
critical.

-- 
Sylvain
P.S. make the line size 80 chars :))

Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread sylvain . bertrand 
On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 01:30:12PM -0700, Louis Santillan wrote:
> base, I disagree with the choice of nodejs & Qt), could make web
> browsing . . . better, safer, more performant.

c++ only based components: it's not suckless then, by definition.
It's already game over before it even starts.

-- 
Sylvain

Re: [dev] Interesting Web Browser Decoupling Concept

2017-06-13 Thread hiro 
i will so install you guy's facebook app