Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[Dave Blanchard]

On Sun, 21 May 2023 20:27:54 +0300
Greg Minshall  wrote:

> 40+ years ago (working on the Illiac-IV!), i blew up at a co-worker,
> accused him of being a thief, etc.  i was livid.
> 
> my boss, whom i respected a lot, called me in and basically said, "You
> don't have to like so-and-so.  But, here at work, I expect you to treat
> him with respect."
> 
> i changed my behavior.  and, that advice of my former boss has always
> stayed with me, has always seemed very valuable.
> 

If the coworker is a fucking thief, not only will I not like him, I will not 
treat him with respect either. Nor should I be expected to. Jesus did not 
"treat with respect" the fucking thieves who took over the temple; he flipped 
over their tables and chased them out with a whip. Your boss is/was an idiot.

Re: Offtopic ranting | was: (Re: [Mail style feedback] ]Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives [w/ bonus oneliner])

[fossy]

Well said, Sagar.

GNU is great and all... except.. it's not.
It has flaws in it's core philosophies or well.. just practices.

> Large free software is not real free software. To customize one's
software to one's needs, one has to understand it, tweak it and improve
it. Bloated large free software does none.
>
> Almost all GNU software is like that. It is unfortunate but one of the
key reasons why GNU software survives is because it makes users
dependent on it without allowing to shift to other software. Like gcc
and linux.
>
>
> Thanking you
> Sagar Acharya
> https://humaaraartha.in
>
>
>
> 1 Jul 2023, 12:05 by dormo...@plch.xyz:
>
> > On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 03:50:20PM -0400, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
> >
> >> > On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 11:14:56AM -0400, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
> >> > > > Hey, Fossy,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > please be mindful of how you style your e-mails, when there is
a quoted
> >> > > > text, it is necessary to have an 'arrow' [>] at the start of
each line,
> >> > > > otherwise it is not considered a quoted text. For example, this
part:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > > I don't think anyone is shocked by your messages. They just
come
> >> off as
> >> > > > > crass. Imagine going to a conference in real life and one of the
> >> > > > > speakers goes on a 10 min rant filled with swearing and
irrelevant
> >> > > > > material halfway through his talk. Some people might be
offended.
> >> Most
> >> > > > > would be thinking "why am I wasting my time on this idiot?".
> >> > > >
> >> > > > means that only the first line is from the e-mail you have
responded
> >> to,
> >> > > > the other four are from your very own keyboard (quoted in this
case
> >> > > > because I am responding to that text).
> >> > > >
> >> > > > It's not a super huge deal, but it can mess up for example my
> >> highliting
> >> > > > in neomutt and could confuse some threading in different mailing
> >> clients.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > To see the messed up highlight, see attached image.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Have a good one.
> >> > > > --
> >> > > > # Marcel Plch
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
> >> > > > /\- against proprietary attachments
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ## What is that .asc attachment on my e-mails?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > * https://gnupg.org/
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ## Contact:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > * Website: https://plch.xyz
> >> > > > * Gitea: https://gitea.plch.xyz/dormouse
> >> > > > * Matrix: @dormouse:matrix.org
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Hi!
> >> > >
> >> > > Alright..
> >> > > I did know it looked weird, but I thought it was fine because I
use a
> >> dodgy
> >> > > "dark-net" e-mail provider anyways, so the lining looked weird..
> >> > >
> >> > > So how I do it is download the file (don't bother copy-pasting,
new-line
> >> > > doesn't get included so everything just gets joined in one line),
and
> >> then
> >> > > do a
> >> > > pipe to `sed 's/^/> /'`.
> >> > > I format my lines to 79c if it matters.
> >> > >
> >> > > But I think everything breaks on the e-mail client in the browser...
> >> after
> >> > > all,
> >> > > I don't support ShitScripts in browsers, not have it enabled.
> >> > >
> >> > > I'll play a bit with e-mail web-site settings and see if that helps.
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks for pointing it out, I do care how I look (starting from
yesterday
> >> > > :P).
> >> > >
> >> > > EDIT: Ah, I know what happens.. I need to somehow get sed to
split lines
> >> > > into multiple ones before appending the '> '.. because the e-mail
client
> >> > > also splits them above 76 or something like that.. cool client,
but fucks
> >> > > up shit like this.
> >> > >
> >> > > Any command or rather utility to do that? I'm looking at either
sed with
> >> > > brackets somehow, or probably something like `split`, `tr`? :/
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > Just get a better e-mail provider. dnmx is cool when you need
top-notch
> >> > anonymity, but this is just a regular dev forum.
> >>
> >> I deny non-top-notch anonymity not only because I consider it
> >> immoral/unfair to
> >> myself, but also because my life depends on it.
> >> I've said/made/shared things with solid logic/linked evidence that puts
> >> governments and/or corporations in ugliest/darkest/evilest of lights,
if that
> >> makes sense.. as well as done a few fun things such as denying the law
> >> manipulation over my life :).
> >>
> > Haha, understandable. Thanks for everyone affected by the ugly stuff.
> >
> >> > I host my own and stuff works fine. (Dovecot, fetchmail, neomutt)
> >>
> >> I am considering running my own suckless e-mail server, but only and
only
> >> after
> >> I make my computers go trough a router/firewall rules to be 100% sure
> >> there are
> >> no clear-net leaks possible :-).
> >>
> >> I heard that e-mail software is usually ultra-complex?
> >> How hard can it be?
> >> suckless.org has 'Mail clients', but I see no 'Mail servers'. What is
> >> recommended?
> >>
> > Dovecot is nice, not sure if 

Re: Offtopic ranting | was: (Re: [Mail style feedback] ]Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives [w/ bonus oneliner])

[fossy]

> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 03:50:20PM -0400, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
> > > On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 11:14:56AM -0400, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
> > > > > Hey, Fossy,
> > > > >
> > > > > please be mindful of how you style your e-mails, when there is a
quoted
> > > > > text, it is necessary to have an 'arrow' [>] at the start of
each line,
> > > > > otherwise it is not considered a quoted text. For example, this
part:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > I don't think anyone is shocked by your messages. They just
come
> > off as
> > > > > > crass. Imagine going to a conference in real life and one of the
> > > > > > speakers goes on a 10 min rant filled with swearing and
irrelevant
> > > > > > material halfway through his talk. Some people might be offended.
> > Most
> > > > > > would be thinking "why am I wasting my time on this idiot?".
> > > > >
> > > > > means that only the first line is from the e-mail you have
responded
> > to,
> > > > > the other four are from your very own keyboard (quoted in this case
> > > > > because I am responding to that text).
> > > > >
> > > > > It's not a super huge deal, but it can mess up for example my
> > highliting
> > > > > in neomutt and could confuse some threading in different mailing
> > clients.
> > > > >
> > > > > To see the messed up highlight, see attached image.
> > > > >
> > > > > Have a good one.
> > > > > --
> > > > > # Marcel Plch
> > > > >
> > > > > ()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
> > > > > /\- against proprietary attachments
> > > > >
> > > > > ## What is that .asc attachment on my e-mails?
> > > > >
> > > > > * https://gnupg.org/
> > > > >
> > > > > ## Contact:
> > > > >
> > > > > * Website: https://plch.xyz
> > > > > * Gitea: https://gitea.plch.xyz/dormouse
> > > > > * Matrix: @dormouse:matrix.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi!
> > > >
> > > > Alright..
> > > > I did know it looked weird, but I thought it was fine because I use a
> > dodgy
> > > > "dark-net" e-mail provider anyways, so the lining looked weird..
> > > >
> > > > So how I do it is download the file (don't bother copy-pasting,
new-line
> > > > doesn't get included so everything just gets joined in one line), and
> > then
> > > > do a
> > > > pipe to `sed 's/^/> /'`.
> > > > I format my lines to 79c if it matters.
> > > >
> > > > But I think everything breaks on the e-mail client in the browser...
> > after
> > > > all,
> > > > I don't support ShitScripts in browsers, not have it enabled.
> > > >
> > > > I'll play a bit with e-mail web-site settings and see if that helps.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for pointing it out, I do care how I look (starting from
yesterday
> > > > :P).
> > > >
> > > > EDIT: Ah, I know what happens.. I need to somehow get sed to split
lines
> > > > into multiple ones before appending the '> '.. because the e-mail
client
> > > > also splits them above 76 or something like that.. cool client,
but fucks
> > > > up shit like this.
> > > >
> > > > Any command or rather utility to do that? I'm looking at either
sed with
> > > > brackets somehow, or probably something like `split`, `tr`? :/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Just get a better e-mail provider. dnmx is cool when you need top-notch
> > > anonymity, but this is just a regular dev forum.
> >
> > I deny non-top-notch anonymity not only because I consider it
> > immoral/unfair to
> > myself, but also because my life depends on it.
> > I've said/made/shared things with solid logic/linked evidence that puts
> > governments and/or corporations in ugliest/darkest/evilest of lights,
if that
> > makes sense.. as well as done a few fun things such as denying the law
> > manipulation over my life :).
> >
> >
> Haha, understandable. Thanks for everyone affected by the ugly stuff.
>
> > > I host my own and stuff works fine. (Dovecot, fetchmail, neomutt)
> >
> > I am considering running my own suckless e-mail server, but only and only
> > after
> > I make my computers go trough a router/firewall rules to be 100% sure
> > there are
> > no clear-net leaks possible :-).
> >
> > I heard that e-mail software is usually ultra-complex?
> > How hard can it be?
> > suckless.org has 'Mail clients', but I see no 'Mail servers'. What is
> > recommended?
> >
> >
> Dovecot is nice, not sure if suckless. I love suckless philosophy, but
> don't solely rely on it, I just don't mind larger 'bloated' programs if
> they do one job well with little footprint. Dovecot's rather easy to
> configure with TLS enforcing, open-DKIM, stuff like that. That's clear web
> tho but you always need a clear web exit-node if you really want to reach
> people.

I rely on minimalism for security, anonymity and other things.
I heard OpenMTPD or whatever it's called, from OpenBSD.. I'll probably use
that since I am already familiar with OpenBSD, thanks.


> > > Vim has a nice feature for formatting text, you just visually select
block
> > > of text, press Gq and all text is <80c per line. Neomutt even passes
some
> > > argument to vim so that it trims lines 

Re: [Mail style feedback] ]Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives [w/ bonus oneliner]

[fossy]

OpenSMTPD?
Let me guess, it's included within OpenBSD? :P
Well.. I'll need like 3 things from it..
1st be minimal - which I bet OpenSMTPD is.
2nd be written in C - I hope it is.
3rd be anonymous-friendly.. like I suppose pledge and unveil.. so since we're
on OpenBSD, that's a check as well.

Sounds good, I'll check it out someday, thanks.

Nano? Ew! haha
Yeah, same here basic features but in Vim I really found a few stuff great
such
as highlighting (could be done with ANSI escape codes such as \033[31m), then
indenting and appending lines to the entire file easily, like doing a `sed
's/^/> ' FILE`.
There are other things, I just forgot about them, but one of them would
also be
highlighted search.. like FreeBSD can have in `less`..  too bad OpenBSD
doesn't
have colors in `less` :d


> OpenSMTPD, the only sanely configurable mailserver.
>
> I use nano and mousepad. They are extremely minimal and fantastic! I
need just some basic features in an editor like syntax highlighting,
block indent and it's reverse, ability to edit :P , and nothing more!
> Thanking you
> Sagar Acharya
> https://humaaraartha.in
>
>
>
> 1 Jul 2023, 01:20 by fo...@dnmx.org:
>
> >> On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 11:14:56AM -0400, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
> >> > > Hey, Fossy,
> >> > >
> >> > > please be mindful of how you style your e-mails, when there is a
quoted
> >> > > text, it is necessary to have an 'arrow' [>] at the start of each
line,
> >> > > otherwise it is not considered a quoted text. For example, this
part:
> >> > >
> >> > > > > I don't think anyone is shocked by your messages. They just come
> >>
> > off as
> >
> >> > > > crass. Imagine going to a conference in real life and one of the
> >> > > > speakers goes on a 10 min rant filled with swearing and irrelevant
> >> > > > material halfway through his talk. Some people might be offended.
> >>
> > Most
> >
> >> > > > would be thinking "why am I wasting my time on this idiot?".
> >> > >
> >> > > means that only the first line is from the e-mail you have responded
> >>
> > to,
> >
> >> > > the other four are from your very own keyboard (quoted in this case
> >> > > because I am responding to that text).
> >> > >
> >> > > It's not a super huge deal, but it can mess up for example my
> >>
> > highliting
> >
> >> > > in neomutt and could confuse some threading in different mailing
> >>
> > clients.
> >
> >> > >
> >> > > To see the messed up highlight, see attached image.
> >> > >
> >> > > Have a good one.
> >> > > --
> >> > > # Marcel Plch
> >> > >
> >> > > ()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
> >> > > /\- against proprietary attachments
> >> > >
> >> > > ## What is that .asc attachment on my e-mails?
> >> > >
> >> > > * https://gnupg.org/
> >> > >
> >> > > ## Contact:
> >> > >
> >> > > * Website: https://plch.xyz
> >> > > * Gitea: https://gitea.plch.xyz/dormouse
> >> > > * Matrix: @dormouse:matrix.org
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hi!
> >> >
> >> > Alright..
> >> > I did know it looked weird, but I thought it was fine because I use a
> >>
> > dodgy
> >
> >> > "dark-net" e-mail provider anyways, so the lining looked weird..
> >> >
> >> > So how I do it is download the file (don't bother copy-pasting,
new-line
> >> > doesn't get included so everything just gets joined in one line), and
> >>
> > then
> >
> >> > do a
> >> > pipe to `sed 's/^/> /'`.
> >> > I format my lines to 79c if it matters.
> >> >
> >> > But I think everything breaks on the e-mail client in the browser...
> >>
> > after
> >
> >> > all,
> >> > I don't support ShitScripts in browsers, not have it enabled.
> >> >
> >> > I'll play a bit with e-mail web-site settings and see if that helps.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks for pointing it out, I do care how I look (starting from
yesterday
> >> > :P).
> >> >
> >> > EDIT: Ah, I know what happens.. I need to somehow get sed to split
lines
> >> > into multiple ones before appending the '> '.. because the e-mail
client
> >> > also splits them above 76 or something like that.. cool client, but
fucks
> >> > up shit like this.
> >> >
> >> > Any command or rather utility to do that? I'm looking at either sed
with
> >> > brackets somehow, or probably something like `split`, `tr`? :/
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Just get a better e-mail provider. dnmx is cool when you need top-notch
> >> anonymity, but this is just a regular dev forum.
> >>
> >
> > I deny non-top-notch anonymity not only because I consider it
> > immoral/unfair to
> > myself, but also because my life depends on it.
> > I've said/made/shared things with solid logic/linked evidence that puts
> > governments and/or corporations in ugliest/darkest/evilest of lights,
if that
> > makes sense.. as well as done a few fun things such as denying the law
> > manipulation over my life :).
> >
> >
> >> I host my own and stuff works fine. (Dovecot, fetchmail, neomutt)
> >>
> >
> > I am considering running my own suckless e-mail server, but only and only
> > after
> > I make my computers go trough a router/firewall rules to be 

Re: [Mail style feedback] ]Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives [w/ bonus oneliner]

[fossy]

> On 1 July 2023 7:50:20 am NZST, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
> >Vim is also bloated as hell at over 70 SLOC (including comments and
> >everything, wc -l).. I'd rather just use pre-installed `vi`..
> >I did use Vim in the past. I do miss it, that's why I started my own text
> >editor that will be (I hope) as minimalistic as Vi, but as functional
as Vim.
> >I seen there's vim-tiny or something? But I don't trust it to be suckless.
>
> Don't take the "bloat" meme too far.  Not all large
>  programs are bad and not all small programs are
>  good.

What meme? I am an extremist-wanna-be.
I want in the future to not even use X11/Wayland, and do stuff in tty while
also using graphics such as mpv, Links with graphics and say games or
something, directly displayed to screen.
I got mpv to play directly, but I forgot how/where, recently.
It was either FreeBSD or OpenBSD.
On GNU/Linux it's quite easy, yada yada yada some framebuffer stuff.

Getting of topic, but basically, with lesser code-based comes easy audits for
security reasons, anonymity reasons as well as changing the code to one's own
will.

There is 100% ZERO excuse for Vim being that huge.
even 50SLOC would be too much for me.
Yes it can be done.
No, I do not need 100% of Vim's patches.

I know what I want, and so should you, if you wanna know what you use,
want to
understand the program, etc.
Old-school support that Vi and Vim might have? That should be optional, in my
opinion.. not sure what I'm exactly referring to, but I'm sure that they have
something like X11 has - legacy code.


>  Vim is a great editor, it is large because
>  editing is a pretty comprehensive activity. You
>  couldn't fit the functionality of vim in a smaller
>  package

I disagree, and time will show if I am right or not, once.. perhaps IF, I
"finish" my text editor project 'stte'.
But like I said: I do not require 100% of Vim features ;)
I can't remember 50% of them, let alone use them all.


>  and I don't think you could build it out of
>  separate Unix-y pieces.

What do you mean?


> You can also compile out a lot of the bloat
>  features like the terminal emulator.
>
> Cheers,
> Miles

Yeah, like I mentioned already: vim-tiny.
No fucking clue how much SLOC it is then, couldn't find in the README file.

Re: Offtopic ranting | was: (Re: [Mail style feedback] ]Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives [w/ bonus oneliner])

[Sagar Acharya]

Large free software is not real free software. To customize one's software to 
one's needs, one has to understand it, tweak it and improve it. Bloated large 
free software does none.

Almost all GNU software is like that. It is unfortunate but one of the key 
reasons why GNU software survives is because it makes users dependent on it 
without allowing to shift to other software. Like gcc and linux.


Thanking you
Sagar Acharya
https://humaaraartha.in



1 Jul 2023, 12:05 by dormo...@plch.xyz:

> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 03:50:20PM -0400, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
>
>> > On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 11:14:56AM -0400, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
>> > > > Hey, Fossy,
>> > > >
>> > > > please be mindful of how you style your e-mails, when there is a quoted
>> > > > text, it is necessary to have an 'arrow' [>] at the start of each line,
>> > > > otherwise it is not considered a quoted text. For example, this part:
>> > > >
>> > > > > > I don't think anyone is shocked by your messages. They just come
>> off as
>> > > > > crass. Imagine going to a conference in real life and one of the
>> > > > > speakers goes on a 10 min rant filled with swearing and irrelevant
>> > > > > material halfway through his talk. Some people might be offended.
>> Most
>> > > > > would be thinking "why am I wasting my time on this idiot?".
>> > > >
>> > > > means that only the first line is from the e-mail you have responded
>> to,
>> > > > the other four are from your very own keyboard (quoted in this case
>> > > > because I am responding to that text).
>> > > >
>> > > > It's not a super huge deal, but it can mess up for example my
>> highliting
>> > > > in neomutt and could confuse some threading in different mailing
>> clients.
>> > > >
>> > > > To see the messed up highlight, see attached image.
>> > > >
>> > > > Have a good one.
>> > > > --
>> > > > # Marcel Plch
>> > > >
>> > > > ()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
>> > > > /\- against proprietary attachments
>> > > >
>> > > > ## What is that .asc attachment on my e-mails?
>> > > >
>> > > > * https://gnupg.org/
>> > > >
>> > > > ## Contact:
>> > > >
>> > > > * Website: https://plch.xyz
>> > > > * Gitea: https://gitea.plch.xyz/dormouse
>> > > > * Matrix: @dormouse:matrix.org
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Hi!
>> > >
>> > > Alright..
>> > > I did know it looked weird, but I thought it was fine because I use a
>> dodgy
>> > > "dark-net" e-mail provider anyways, so the lining looked weird..
>> > >
>> > > So how I do it is download the file (don't bother copy-pasting, new-line
>> > > doesn't get included so everything just gets joined in one line), and
>> then
>> > > do a
>> > > pipe to `sed 's/^/> /'`.
>> > > I format my lines to 79c if it matters.
>> > >
>> > > But I think everything breaks on the e-mail client in the browser...
>> after
>> > > all,
>> > > I don't support ShitScripts in browsers, not have it enabled.
>> > >
>> > > I'll play a bit with e-mail web-site settings and see if that helps.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks for pointing it out, I do care how I look (starting from yesterday
>> > > :P).
>> > >
>> > > EDIT: Ah, I know what happens.. I need to somehow get sed to split lines
>> > > into multiple ones before appending the '> '.. because the e-mail client
>> > > also splits them above 76 or something like that.. cool client, but fucks
>> > > up shit like this.
>> > >
>> > > Any command or rather utility to do that? I'm looking at either sed with
>> > > brackets somehow, or probably something like `split`, `tr`? :/
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > Just get a better e-mail provider. dnmx is cool when you need top-notch
>> > anonymity, but this is just a regular dev forum.
>>
>> I deny non-top-notch anonymity not only because I consider it
>> immoral/unfair to
>> myself, but also because my life depends on it.
>> I've said/made/shared things with solid logic/linked evidence that puts
>> governments and/or corporations in ugliest/darkest/evilest of lights, if that
>> makes sense.. as well as done a few fun things such as denying the law
>> manipulation over my life :).
>>
> Haha, understandable. Thanks for everyone affected by the ugly stuff.
>
>> > I host my own and stuff works fine. (Dovecot, fetchmail, neomutt)
>>
>> I am considering running my own suckless e-mail server, but only and only
>> after
>> I make my computers go trough a router/firewall rules to be 100% sure
>> there are
>> no clear-net leaks possible :-).
>>
>> I heard that e-mail software is usually ultra-complex?
>> How hard can it be?
>> suckless.org has 'Mail clients', but I see no 'Mail servers'. What is
>> recommended?
>>
> Dovecot is nice, not sure if suckless. I love suckless philosophy, but
> don't solely rely on it, I just don't mind larger 'bloated' programs if
> they do one job well with little footprint. Dovecot's rather easy to
> configure with TLS enforcing, open-DKIM, stuff like that. That's clear web
> tho but you always need a clear web exit-node if you really want to reach
> people.
>
>> > Vim 

Offtopic ranting | was: (Re: [Mail style feedback] ]Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives [w/ bonus oneliner])

[Marcel Plch]

On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 03:50:20PM -0400, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 11:14:56AM -0400, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
> > > > Hey, Fossy,
> > > >
> > > > please be mindful of how you style your e-mails, when there is a quoted
> > > > text, it is necessary to have an 'arrow' [>] at the start of each line,
> > > > otherwise it is not considered a quoted text. For example, this part:
> > > >
> > > > > > I don't think anyone is shocked by your messages. They just come
> off as
> > > > > crass. Imagine going to a conference in real life and one of the
> > > > > speakers goes on a 10 min rant filled with swearing and irrelevant
> > > > > material halfway through his talk. Some people might be offended.
> Most
> > > > > would be thinking "why am I wasting my time on this idiot?".
> > > >
> > > > means that only the first line is from the e-mail you have responded
> to,
> > > > the other four are from your very own keyboard (quoted in this case
> > > > because I am responding to that text).
> > > >
> > > > It's not a super huge deal, but it can mess up for example my
> highliting
> > > > in neomutt and could confuse some threading in different mailing
> clients.
> > > >
> > > > To see the messed up highlight, see attached image.
> > > >
> > > > Have a good one.
> > > > --
> > > > # Marcel Plch
> > > >
> > > > ()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
> > > > /\- against proprietary attachments
> > > >
> > > > ## What is that .asc attachment on my e-mails?
> > > >
> > > > * https://gnupg.org/
> > > >
> > > > ## Contact:
> > > >
> > > > * Website: https://plch.xyz
> > > > * Gitea: https://gitea.plch.xyz/dormouse
> > > > * Matrix: @dormouse:matrix.org
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi!
> > >
> > > Alright..
> > > I did know it looked weird, but I thought it was fine because I use a
> dodgy
> > > "dark-net" e-mail provider anyways, so the lining looked weird..
> > >
> > > So how I do it is download the file (don't bother copy-pasting, new-line
> > > doesn't get included so everything just gets joined in one line), and
> then
> > > do a
> > > pipe to `sed 's/^/> /'`.
> > > I format my lines to 79c if it matters.
> > >
> > > But I think everything breaks on the e-mail client in the browser...
> after
> > > all,
> > > I don't support ShitScripts in browsers, not have it enabled.
> > >
> > > I'll play a bit with e-mail web-site settings and see if that helps.
> > >
> > > Thanks for pointing it out, I do care how I look (starting from yesterday
> > > :P).
> > >
> > > EDIT: Ah, I know what happens.. I need to somehow get sed to split lines
> > > into multiple ones before appending the '> '.. because the e-mail client
> > > also splits them above 76 or something like that.. cool client, but fucks
> > > up shit like this.
> > >
> > > Any command or rather utility to do that? I'm looking at either sed with
> > > brackets somehow, or probably something like `split`, `tr`? :/
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Just get a better e-mail provider. dnmx is cool when you need top-notch
> > anonymity, but this is just a regular dev forum.
> 
> I deny non-top-notch anonymity not only because I consider it
> immoral/unfair to
> myself, but also because my life depends on it.
> I've said/made/shared things with solid logic/linked evidence that puts
> governments and/or corporations in ugliest/darkest/evilest of lights, if that
> makes sense.. as well as done a few fun things such as denying the law
> manipulation over my life :).
> 
> 
Haha, understandable. Thanks for everyone affected by the ugly stuff.

> > I host my own and stuff works fine. (Dovecot, fetchmail, neomutt)
> 
> I am considering running my own suckless e-mail server, but only and only
> after
> I make my computers go trough a router/firewall rules to be 100% sure
> there are
> no clear-net leaks possible :-).
> 
> I heard that e-mail software is usually ultra-complex?
> How hard can it be?
> suckless.org has 'Mail clients', but I see no 'Mail servers'. What is
> recommended?
> 
> 
Dovecot is nice, not sure if suckless. I love suckless philosophy, but
don't solely rely on it, I just don't mind larger 'bloated' programs if
they do one job well with little footprint. Dovecot's rather easy to
configure with TLS enforcing, open-DKIM, stuff like that. That's clear web
tho but you always need a clear web exit-node if you really want to reach
people.

> > Vim has a nice feature for formatting text, you just visually select block
> > of text, press Gq and all text is <80c per line. Neomutt even passes some
> > argument to vim so that it trims lines automatically.
> 
> Vim is also bloated as hell at over 70 SLOC (including comments and
> everything, wc -l).. I'd rather just use pre-installed `vi`..
> I did use Vim in the past. I do miss it, that's why I started my own text
> editor that will be (I hope) as minimalistic as Vi, but as functional as Vim.
> I seen there's vim-tiny or something? But I don't trust it to be suckless.
> 
> 
> > It's fairly easy to get 

Re: [Mail style feedback] ]Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives [w/ bonus oneliner]

[Sagar Acharya]

OpenSMTPD, the only sanely configurable mailserver.

I use nano and mousepad. They are extremely minimal and fantastic! I need just 
some basic features in an editor like syntax highlighting, block indent and 
it's reverse, ability to edit :P , and nothing more!
Thanking you
Sagar Acharya
https://humaaraartha.in



1 Jul 2023, 01:20 by fo...@dnmx.org:

>> On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 11:14:56AM -0400, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
>> > > Hey, Fossy,
>> > >
>> > > please be mindful of how you style your e-mails, when there is a quoted
>> > > text, it is necessary to have an 'arrow' [>] at the start of each line,
>> > > otherwise it is not considered a quoted text. For example, this part:
>> > >
>> > > > > I don't think anyone is shocked by your messages. They just come
>>
> off as
>
>> > > > crass. Imagine going to a conference in real life and one of the
>> > > > speakers goes on a 10 min rant filled with swearing and irrelevant
>> > > > material halfway through his talk. Some people might be offended.
>>
> Most
>
>> > > > would be thinking "why am I wasting my time on this idiot?".
>> > >
>> > > means that only the first line is from the e-mail you have responded
>>
> to,
>
>> > > the other four are from your very own keyboard (quoted in this case
>> > > because I am responding to that text).
>> > >
>> > > It's not a super huge deal, but it can mess up for example my
>>
> highliting
>
>> > > in neomutt and could confuse some threading in different mailing
>>
> clients.
>
>> > >
>> > > To see the messed up highlight, see attached image.
>> > >
>> > > Have a good one.
>> > > --
>> > > # Marcel Plch
>> > >
>> > > ()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
>> > > /\- against proprietary attachments
>> > >
>> > > ## What is that .asc attachment on my e-mails?
>> > >
>> > > * https://gnupg.org/
>> > >
>> > > ## Contact:
>> > >
>> > > * Website: https://plch.xyz
>> > > * Gitea: https://gitea.plch.xyz/dormouse
>> > > * Matrix: @dormouse:matrix.org
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi!
>> >
>> > Alright..
>> > I did know it looked weird, but I thought it was fine because I use a
>>
> dodgy
>
>> > "dark-net" e-mail provider anyways, so the lining looked weird..
>> >
>> > So how I do it is download the file (don't bother copy-pasting, new-line
>> > doesn't get included so everything just gets joined in one line), and
>>
> then
>
>> > do a
>> > pipe to `sed 's/^/> /'`.
>> > I format my lines to 79c if it matters.
>> >
>> > But I think everything breaks on the e-mail client in the browser...
>>
> after
>
>> > all,
>> > I don't support ShitScripts in browsers, not have it enabled.
>> >
>> > I'll play a bit with e-mail web-site settings and see if that helps.
>> >
>> > Thanks for pointing it out, I do care how I look (starting from yesterday
>> > :P).
>> >
>> > EDIT: Ah, I know what happens.. I need to somehow get sed to split lines
>> > into multiple ones before appending the '> '.. because the e-mail client
>> > also splits them above 76 or something like that.. cool client, but fucks
>> > up shit like this.
>> >
>> > Any command or rather utility to do that? I'm looking at either sed with
>> > brackets somehow, or probably something like `split`, `tr`? :/
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Just get a better e-mail provider. dnmx is cool when you need top-notch
>> anonymity, but this is just a regular dev forum.
>>
>
> I deny non-top-notch anonymity not only because I consider it
> immoral/unfair to
> myself, but also because my life depends on it.
> I've said/made/shared things with solid logic/linked evidence that puts
> governments and/or corporations in ugliest/darkest/evilest of lights, if that
> makes sense.. as well as done a few fun things such as denying the law
> manipulation over my life :).
>
>
>> I host my own and stuff works fine. (Dovecot, fetchmail, neomutt)
>>
>
> I am considering running my own suckless e-mail server, but only and only
> after
> I make my computers go trough a router/firewall rules to be 100% sure
> there are
> no clear-net leaks possible :-).
>
> I heard that e-mail software is usually ultra-complex?
> How hard can it be?
> suckless.org has 'Mail clients', but I see no 'Mail servers'. What is
> recommended?
>
>
>> Vim has a nice feature for formatting text, you just visually select block
>> of text, press Gq and all text is <80c per line. Neomutt even passes some
>> argument to vim so that it trims lines automatically.
>>
>
> Vim is also bloated as hell at over 70 SLOC (including comments and
> everything, wc -l).. I'd rather just use pre-installed `vi`..
> I did use Vim in the past. I do miss it, that's why I started my own text
> editor that will be (I hope) as minimalistic as Vi, but as functional as Vim.
> I seen there's vim-tiny or something? But I don't trust it to be suckless.
>
>
>> It's fairly easy to get really frustrated without even realizing it if
>> things just don't work and you keep to work around them all the time.
>>
>
> Pretty much my life :) (there eye problem I have for >1year).

Re: [Mail style feedback] ]Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives [w/ bonus oneliner]

[Miles Rout]

On 1 July 2023 7:50:20 am NZST, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
>Vim is also bloated as hell at over 70 SLOC (including comments and
>everything, wc -l).. I'd rather just use pre-installed `vi`..
>I did use Vim in the past. I do miss it, that's why I started my own text
>editor that will be (I hope) as minimalistic as Vi, but as functional as Vim.
>I seen there's vim-tiny or something? But I don't trust it to be suckless.

Don't take the "bloat" meme too far.  Not all large
 programs are bad and not all small programs are
 good. Vim is a great editor, it is large because
 editing is a pretty comprehensive activity. You
 couldn't fit the functionality of vim in a smaller
 package and I don't think you could build it out of
 separate Unix-y pieces.

You can also compile out a lot of the bloat 
 features like the terminal emulator.

Cheers,
Miles

Re: [Mail style feedback] ]Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives [w/ bonus oneliner]

[fossy]

> On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 11:14:56AM -0400, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
> > > Hey, Fossy,
> > >
> > > please be mindful of how you style your e-mails, when there is a quoted
> > > text, it is necessary to have an 'arrow' [>] at the start of each line,
> > > otherwise it is not considered a quoted text. For example, this part:
> > >
> > > > > I don't think anyone is shocked by your messages. They just come
off as
> > > > crass. Imagine going to a conference in real life and one of the
> > > > speakers goes on a 10 min rant filled with swearing and irrelevant
> > > > material halfway through his talk. Some people might be offended.
Most
> > > > would be thinking "why am I wasting my time on this idiot?".
> > >
> > > means that only the first line is from the e-mail you have responded
to,
> > > the other four are from your very own keyboard (quoted in this case
> > > because I am responding to that text).
> > >
> > > It's not a super huge deal, but it can mess up for example my
highliting
> > > in neomutt and could confuse some threading in different mailing
clients.
> > >
> > > To see the messed up highlight, see attached image.
> > >
> > > Have a good one.
> > > --
> > > # Marcel Plch
> > >
> > > ()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
> > > /\- against proprietary attachments
> > >
> > > ## What is that .asc attachment on my e-mails?
> > >
> > > * https://gnupg.org/
> > >
> > > ## Contact:
> > >
> > > * Website: https://plch.xyz
> > > * Gitea: https://gitea.plch.xyz/dormouse
> > > * Matrix: @dormouse:matrix.org
> >
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> > Alright..
> > I did know it looked weird, but I thought it was fine because I use a
dodgy
> > "dark-net" e-mail provider anyways, so the lining looked weird..
> >
> > So how I do it is download the file (don't bother copy-pasting, new-line
> > doesn't get included so everything just gets joined in one line), and
then
> > do a
> > pipe to `sed 's/^/> /'`.
> > I format my lines to 79c if it matters.
> >
> > But I think everything breaks on the e-mail client in the browser...
after
> > all,
> > I don't support ShitScripts in browsers, not have it enabled.
> >
> > I'll play a bit with e-mail web-site settings and see if that helps.
> >
> > Thanks for pointing it out, I do care how I look (starting from yesterday
> > :P).
> >
> > EDIT: Ah, I know what happens.. I need to somehow get sed to split lines
> > into multiple ones before appending the '> '.. because the e-mail client
> > also splits them above 76 or something like that.. cool client, but fucks
> > up shit like this.
> >
> > Any command or rather utility to do that? I'm looking at either sed with
> > brackets somehow, or probably something like `split`, `tr`? :/
> >
> >
>
> Just get a better e-mail provider. dnmx is cool when you need top-notch
> anonymity, but this is just a regular dev forum.

I deny non-top-notch anonymity not only because I consider it
immoral/unfair to
myself, but also because my life depends on it.
I've said/made/shared things with solid logic/linked evidence that puts
governments and/or corporations in ugliest/darkest/evilest of lights, if that
makes sense.. as well as done a few fun things such as denying the law
manipulation over my life :).


> I host my own and stuff works fine. (Dovecot, fetchmail, neomutt)

I am considering running my own suckless e-mail server, but only and only
after
I make my computers go trough a router/firewall rules to be 100% sure
there are
no clear-net leaks possible :-).

I heard that e-mail software is usually ultra-complex?
How hard can it be?
suckless.org has 'Mail clients', but I see no 'Mail servers'. What is
recommended?


> Vim has a nice feature for formatting text, you just visually select block
> of text, press Gq and all text is <80c per line. Neomutt even passes some
> argument to vim so that it trims lines automatically.

Vim is also bloated as hell at over 70 SLOC (including comments and
everything, wc -l).. I'd rather just use pre-installed `vi`..
I did use Vim in the past. I do miss it, that's why I started my own text
editor that will be (I hope) as minimalistic as Vi, but as functional as Vim.
I seen there's vim-tiny or something? But I don't trust it to be suckless.


> It's fairly easy to get really frustrated without even realizing it if
> things just don't work and you keep to work around them all the time.

Pretty much my life :) (there eye problem I have for >1year).
I miss programming and feeling like a god creating my little, meaningful
universe.


> * Website: https://plch.xyz

Damn, you look chill. Share that calmness immediately!
I love people having their own web-sites, especially when they self-host,
especiallyx2 if it's over a holy-net(such as I2P)

Re: [Mail style feedback] ]Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives [w/ bonus oneliner]

[Marcel Plch]

On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 11:14:56AM -0400, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
> > Hey, Fossy,
> >
> > please be mindful of how you style your e-mails, when there is a quoted
> > text, it is necessary to have an 'arrow' [>] at the start of each line,
> > otherwise it is not considered a quoted text. For example, this part:
> >
> > > > I don't think anyone is shocked by your messages. They just come off as
> > > crass. Imagine going to a conference in real life and one of the
> > > speakers goes on a 10 min rant filled with swearing and irrelevant
> > > material halfway through his talk. Some people might be offended. Most
> > > would be thinking "why am I wasting my time on this idiot?".
> >
> > means that only the first line is from the e-mail you have responded to,
> > the other four are from your very own keyboard (quoted in this case
> > because I am responding to that text).
> >
> > It's not a super huge deal, but it can mess up for example my highliting
> > in neomutt and could confuse some threading in different mailing clients.
> >
> > To see the messed up highlight, see attached image.
> >
> > Have a good one.
> > --
> > # Marcel Plch
> >
> > ()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
> > /\- against proprietary attachments
> >
> > ## What is that .asc attachment on my e-mails?
> >
> > * https://gnupg.org/
> >
> > ## Contact:
> >
> > * Website: https://plch.xyz
> > * Gitea: https://gitea.plch.xyz/dormouse
> > * Matrix: @dormouse:matrix.org
> 
> 
> Hi!
> 
> Alright..
> I did know it looked weird, but I thought it was fine because I use a dodgy
> "dark-net" e-mail provider anyways, so the lining looked weird..
> 
> So how I do it is download the file (don't bother copy-pasting, new-line
> doesn't get included so everything just gets joined in one line), and then
> do a
> pipe to `sed 's/^/> /'`.
> I format my lines to 79c if it matters.
> 
> But I think everything breaks on the e-mail client in the browser... after
> all,
> I don't support ShitScripts in browsers, not have it enabled.
> 
> I'll play a bit with e-mail web-site settings and see if that helps.
> 
> Thanks for pointing it out, I do care how I look (starting from yesterday
> :P).
> 
> EDIT: Ah, I know what happens.. I need to somehow get sed to split lines
> into multiple ones before appending the '> '.. because the e-mail client
> also splits them above 76 or something like that.. cool client, but fucks
> up shit like this.
> 
> Any command or rather utility to do that? I'm looking at either sed with
> brackets somehow, or probably something like `split`, `tr`? :/
> 
> 

Just get a better e-mail provider. dnmx is cool when you need top-notch
anonymity, but this is just a regular dev forum.

I host my own and stuff works fine. (Dovecot, fetchmail, neomutt)

Vim has a nice feature for formatting text, you just visually select block
of text, press Gq and all text is <80c per line. Neomutt even passes some
argument to vim so that it trims lines automatically.

It's a difficult mindset to get into, but you just want to use the proper
tool for proper environment. All of us in this community tend to not do
that and just use the 'best by test' tools, but it really is important to
look for other solutions.

It's fairly easy to get really frustrated without even realizing it if
things just don't work and you keep to work around them all the time.

Check out this cool neomutt guide [0] and an RFC mail style guide [1] they host:
[0] - https://neomutt.org/
[1] - https://neomutt.org/rfc/1855
-- 
# Marcel Plch

()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\- against proprietary attachments

## What is that .asc attachment on my e-mails?

* https://gnupg.org/

## Contact:

* Website: https://plch.xyz
* Gitea: https://gitea.plch.xyz/dormouse
* Matrix: @dormouse:matrix.org


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: [Mail style feedback] ]Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives [w/ bonus oneliner]

[fossy]

> Hey, Fossy,
>
> please be mindful of how you style your e-mails, when there is a quoted
> text, it is necessary to have an 'arrow' [>] at the start of each line,
> otherwise it is not considered a quoted text. For example, this part:
>
> > > I don't think anyone is shocked by your messages. They just come off as
> > crass. Imagine going to a conference in real life and one of the
> > speakers goes on a 10 min rant filled with swearing and irrelevant
> > material halfway through his talk. Some people might be offended. Most
> > would be thinking "why am I wasting my time on this idiot?".
>
> means that only the first line is from the e-mail you have responded to,
> the other four are from your very own keyboard (quoted in this case
> because I am responding to that text).
>
> It's not a super huge deal, but it can mess up for example my highliting
> in neomutt and could confuse some threading in different mailing clients.
>
> To see the messed up highlight, see attached image.
>
> Have a good one.
> --
> # Marcel Plch
>
> ()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
> /\- against proprietary attachments
>
> ## What is that .asc attachment on my e-mails?
>
> * https://gnupg.org/
>
> ## Contact:
>
> * Website: https://plch.xyz
> * Gitea: https://gitea.plch.xyz/dormouse
> * Matrix: @dormouse:matrix.org


Hi!

Alright..
I did know it looked weird, but I thought it was fine because I use a dodgy
"dark-net" e-mail provider anyways, so the lining looked weird..

So how I do it is download the file (don't bother copy-pasting, new-line
doesn't get included so everything just gets joined in one line), and then
do a
pipe to `sed 's/^/> /'`.
I format my lines to 79c if it matters.

But I think everything breaks on the e-mail client in the browser... after
all,
I don't support ShitScripts in browsers, not have it enabled.

I'll play a bit with e-mail web-site settings and see if that helps.

Thanks for pointing it out, I do care how I look (starting from yesterday
:P).

EDIT: Ah, I know what happens.. I need to somehow get sed to split lines
into multiple ones before appending the '> '.. because the e-mail client
also splits them above 76 or something like that.. cool client, but fucks
up shit like this.

Any command or rather utility to do that? I'm looking at either sed with
brackets somehow, or probably something like `split`, `tr`? :/

[Mail style feedback] ]Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives [w/ bonus oneliner]

[Marcel Plch]

On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 12:22:16PM -0400, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
> > On 24 June 2023 7:13:48 am NZST, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
> > >I understand what you are talking about... I once told someone "go kill
> > >yourself" or "I you die", never again..
> > >
> > >I do understand that there are sensitive souls out there, but they are
> > >coal of
> > >a fire which gets started by governments and corporations with their
> > >"moderation tools"..
> >
> > This has nothing to do with governments or censorship. Governments don't
> care about swearing. They don't care about meandering, low quality
> messages. They like them. Look at the "big platforms" that are heavily
> censored. There is no lack of swearing. There is a lot of low quality
> off-topic trolling.
> >
> > You aren't doing anything anti-censorship by swearing every second word
> or posting messages without carefully thinking them through. You're just
> annoying others on the list. You're lowering the quality of the
> discussion - both with what you say and how you say it. You make broad
> suggestions about things without giving them any real thought and you
> present ideas in this meandering way, often full of profanity.
> >
> > The governments of this world are, if anything, in favour of people
> swearing every second word. They strongly oppose any attempts to create
> a child-safe internet or subset of the internet away from porn, groomers
> and foul language. They sometimes seem to want us all to be mindless
> consumers incapable of serious inquiry.
> >
> > >I suppose my goal was and is to lower their sensitivity, so far, from
> > >personal
> > >experience, I found out that putting the blade straight into the fire
> for a
> > >prolonged period of time can really harden it.
> >
> > >What I perhaps failed to realize is that not all blades are equal.
> > >Yes, I don't want to be censored on here, and I don't want sensitive
> > >people in
> > >here, but I do want people, so goal should be to somehow change people
> from
> > >sensitive to insensitive, tolerant.
> >
> > I don't think anyone is shocked by your messages. They just come off as
> crass. Imagine going to a conference in real life and one of the
> speakers goes on a 10 min rant filled with swearing and irrelevant
> material halfway through his talk. Some people might be offended. Most
> would be thinking "why am I wasting my time on this idiot?".
> >
> > People aren't being "sensitive". They are just adults with time-waster
> detectors. When every second word is F this and F that, it suggests that
> you lack the vocabulary and grammar to express yourself properly. That
> might not always be true, but it is true enough of the time that most
> people in this world will make that presumption until it has been
> disproven.
> >
> > >I got a feeling like you and I are somehow connected, like you are me
> in past
> > >life or something.. perhaps we are all just 1 split consciousness.
> >
> > This sort of stuff adds nothing and just makes you seem weird.
> >
> > >I feel, myself, like I'm at my limit, been for many many months..  due
> to my
> > >never-ending eye problem..
> > >Sensitive or not, computers seemed to heal me mentally.
> >
> > Perhaps you should take a bit of a break from the internet. Go outside,
> breathe the winter/summer air, etc.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> > Miles.
> 
> 
> I was planning a new personality anyways, thanks for the heads up.. sometimes
> self-judging can be difficult and you helped in that way.
> I guess I liked being childish, but I do not like all of consequences of
> that.
> 
> I guess swearing is cool, regardless: I agree that my vocabulary is
> limited, or
> at least my usage of it, I also planned on dramaticaly expanding it, but
> that'd
> significantly increase my body's CPU usage when composing sentences, so I'll
> have to see that trough to the end.
> 
> I liked acting like a monkey, but not being treated like one.. I guess stupid
> of me, huh?
> Perhaps that's one of ways I let out my stress/anger out without even
> realizing
> it.. so irresponsable!
> 
> Because of you, I grow, so I thank you deeply.
> 
> I apologize to everyone not who got offended, but to whom I was just a waste
> of time.
> 
> P.S. I like some of vocabulary that the Christian bibles use such as 'thy',
> 'thereforth', 'whom', etc.
> I guess a suckless bonus for those who read: I use a homemade one-liner to
> browse trough words be it for a grammar check or just to remember the word
> itself:
> 
> /* Output the list of words to dmenu, and after the user choose one, output
>  * that to xclip and remove the last newline character(if exists) */
> static const char dmenudict[] =
>   "cat /usr/share/dict/words | dmenu -c -l 40 -i -p 'Word:' -nb '#22'
> -nf \
> '#bb' -sb '#FF' -sf '#00' | xclip -i -r";
> 
> I like how one could do just a couple of letters at the start, end and the
> middle and it will give you the word you were looking for, which is
> perfect for
> grammar-checking, for 

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives [w/ bonus oneliner]

[fossy]

> On 24 June 2023 7:13:48 am NZST, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
> >I understand what you are talking about... I once told someone "go kill
> >yourself" or "I you die", never again..
> >
> >I do understand that there are sensitive souls out there, but they are
> >coal of
> >a fire which gets started by governments and corporations with their
> >"moderation tools"..
>
> This has nothing to do with governments or censorship. Governments don't
care about swearing. They don't care about meandering, low quality
messages. They like them. Look at the "big platforms" that are heavily
censored. There is no lack of swearing. There is a lot of low quality
off-topic trolling.
>
> You aren't doing anything anti-censorship by swearing every second word
or posting messages without carefully thinking them through. You're just
annoying others on the list. You're lowering the quality of the
discussion - both with what you say and how you say it. You make broad
suggestions about things without giving them any real thought and you
present ideas in this meandering way, often full of profanity.
>
> The governments of this world are, if anything, in favour of people
swearing every second word. They strongly oppose any attempts to create
a child-safe internet or subset of the internet away from porn, groomers
and foul language. They sometimes seem to want us all to be mindless
consumers incapable of serious inquiry.
>
> >I suppose my goal was and is to lower their sensitivity, so far, from
> >personal
> >experience, I found out that putting the blade straight into the fire
for a
> >prolonged period of time can really harden it.
>
> >What I perhaps failed to realize is that not all blades are equal.
> >Yes, I don't want to be censored on here, and I don't want sensitive
> >people in
> >here, but I do want people, so goal should be to somehow change people
from
> >sensitive to insensitive, tolerant.
>
> I don't think anyone is shocked by your messages. They just come off as
crass. Imagine going to a conference in real life and one of the
speakers goes on a 10 min rant filled with swearing and irrelevant
material halfway through his talk. Some people might be offended. Most
would be thinking "why am I wasting my time on this idiot?".
>
> People aren't being "sensitive". They are just adults with time-waster
detectors. When every second word is F this and F that, it suggests that
you lack the vocabulary and grammar to express yourself properly. That
might not always be true, but it is true enough of the time that most
people in this world will make that presumption until it has been
disproven.
>
> >I got a feeling like you and I are somehow connected, like you are me
in past
> >life or something.. perhaps we are all just 1 split consciousness.
>
> This sort of stuff adds nothing and just makes you seem weird.
>
> >I feel, myself, like I'm at my limit, been for many many months..  due
to my
> >never-ending eye problem..
> >Sensitive or not, computers seemed to heal me mentally.
>
> Perhaps you should take a bit of a break from the internet. Go outside,
breathe the winter/summer air, etc.
>
> Kind regards,
> Miles.


I was planning a new personality anyways, thanks for the heads up.. sometimes
self-judging can be difficult and you helped in that way.
I guess I liked being childish, but I do not like all of consequences of
that.

I guess swearing is cool, regardless: I agree that my vocabulary is
limited, or
at least my usage of it, I also planned on dramaticaly expanding it, but
that'd
significantly increase my body's CPU usage when composing sentences, so I'll
have to see that trough to the end.

I liked acting like a monkey, but not being treated like one.. I guess stupid
of me, huh?
Perhaps that's one of ways I let out my stress/anger out without even
realizing
it.. so irresponsable!

Because of you, I grow, so I thank you deeply.

I apologize to everyone not who got offended, but to whom I was just a waste
of time.

P.S. I like some of vocabulary that the Christian bibles use such as 'thy',
'thereforth', 'whom', etc.
I guess a suckless bonus for those who read: I use a homemade one-liner to
browse trough words be it for a grammar check or just to remember the word
itself:

/* Output the list of words to dmenu, and after the user choose one, output
 * that to xclip and remove the last newline character(if exists) */
static const char dmenudict[] =
  "cat /usr/share/dict/words | dmenu -c -l 40 -i -p 'Word:' -nb '#22'
-nf \
'#bb' -sb '#FF' -sf '#00' | xclip -i -r";

I like how one could do just a couple of letters at the start, end and the
middle and it will give you the word you were looking for, which is
perfect for
grammar-checking, for example searching for "po s ble" when wanting to
know how
"possible" is spelled, etc.
The /usr/share/dict/words file might be in another path if it exist on the OS
you use.

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[Miles Rout]

On 24 June 2023 7:13:48 am NZST, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
>I understand what you are talking about... I once told someone "go kill
>yourself" or "I you die", never again..
>
>I do understand that there are sensitive souls out there, but they are
>coal of
>a fire which gets started by governments and corporations with their
>"moderation tools"..

This has nothing to do with governments or censorship. Governments don't care 
about swearing. They don't care about meandering, low quality messages. They 
like them. Look at the "big platforms" that are heavily censored. There is no 
lack of swearing. There is a lot of low quality off-topic trolling.

You aren't doing anything anti-censorship by swearing every second word or 
posting messages without carefully thinking them through. You're just annoying 
others on the list. You're lowering the quality of the discussion - both with 
what you say and how you say it. You make broad suggestions about things 
without giving them any real thought and you present ideas in this meandering 
way, often full of profanity.

The governments of this world are, if anything, in favour of people swearing 
every second word. They strongly oppose any attempts to create a child-safe 
internet or subset of the internet away from porn, groomers and foul language. 
They sometimes seem to want us all to be mindless consumers incapable of 
serious inquiry.

>I suppose my goal was and is to lower their sensitivity, so far, from
>personal
>experience, I found out that putting the blade straight into the fire for a
>prolonged period of time can really harden it.

>What I perhaps failed to realize is that not all blades are equal.
>Yes, I don't want to be censored on here, and I don't want sensitive
>people in
>here, but I do want people, so goal should be to somehow change people from
>sensitive to insensitive, tolerant.

I don't think anyone is shocked by your messages. They just come off as crass. 
Imagine going to a conference in real life and one of the speakers goes on a 10 
min rant filled with swearing and irrelevant material halfway through his talk. 
Some people might be offended. Most would be thinking "why am I wasting my time 
on this idiot?".

People aren't being "sensitive". They are just adults with time-waster 
detectors. When every second word is F this and F that, it suggests that you 
lack the vocabulary and grammar to express yourself properly. That might not 
always be true, but it is true enough of the time that most people in this 
world will make that presumption until it has been disproven.

>I got a feeling like you and I are somehow connected, like you are me in past
>life or something.. perhaps we are all just 1 split consciousness.

This sort of stuff adds nothing and just makes you seem weird.

>I feel, myself, like I'm at my limit, been for many many months..  due to my
>never-ending eye problem..
>Sensitive or not, computers seemed to heal me mentally.

Perhaps you should take a bit of a break from the internet. Go outside, breathe 
the winter/summer air, etc.

Kind regards,
Miles.

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[fossy]

> Greetings fossy and friends,
>
> Please consider reading the ancient RFC1855 on Netiquitte and saving it
> to your bookmarks. Many great ideas that should be obvious have been
> forgotten thanks to the profit-driven anti-privacy Zeitgeist.
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855.html
>
> Also, ESR's How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
>
> https://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>
> I also suggest How To Become A Hacker:
>
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html
>
> I remain Your Most Humble and Obedient Servant,
> --
> CAEE B377 FC82 BAF9 102C  D22F C5CE D003 1AA8 E281
> Spenser Truexhttps://equwal.com

Thanks, those seem full of information, I might one day take a look at it,
especially the Hacker one seems interesting and might help in personal
identification per-say.

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[fossy]

> On May 21, 2023 4:19:06 PM UTC, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
> >> Not sure I understand this correctly, but I think it's similar to what I
> >> wanted to add to the thread; let me phrase it differently: abusing the
> >> free speech argument to justify tone and style is just as harmful as
> >> (self-)censorship. Freedom of speach is about ideas and messages.
> >>
> >> cheers
> >> --s
> >
> >I don't know why, but I was presented with this aggressive behavior and I
> >liked
> >it, it seemed cool to me, it seemed powerful in some ways.. and given how
> >deeply I can get into moral and other topics they can enrage me and
keep me
> >that way for a long time..
> >
> >Being polite for some reason seems too unmanly to me.. too against
freedom of
> >speech. If I don't mistake, I think I explained why being rude can help
> >people. The part about snowflakes and why we got censorship.. people
didn't
> >handle this and this, then they were for some time used to it, so now they
> >feel
> >too insulted for most fucking shit, it's insane!
> >
> >
> >
> Hello, fossy.
>
> I've been seing your messages around.
> I'm not sure if I'm gonna see your reply. I din't think I'm gonna be
stuck in this world for too long.
>
> Just wanted to let you know to be a bit easier on people.
>
> I used to be just like this and it brought me far.
>
> All it took was one blow from life for everything to be taken away from me.
>
> Don't make the same mistake.
>
> Make good friends and commit to them.
>
> Those words don't mean anything to me anymore. And they should to you.
Otherwise, and I hope this isn't the case, you might suffer from a
similar fate.
>
> Consider this a warning from a dead man walking.
>
> I don't demand anything from you.
>
> I want you to be happy. Make people around you feel happy.
>
> I wasn't strong enough to do it.


I understand what you are talking about... I once told someone "go kill
yourself" or "I you die", never again..

I do understand that there are sensitive souls out there, but they are
coal of
a fire which gets started by governments and corporations with their
"moderation tools"..
I suppose my goal was and is to lower their sensitivity, so far, from
personal
experience, I found out that putting the blade straight into the fire for a
prolonged period of time can really harden it.

What I perhaps failed to realize is that not all blades are equal.
Yes, I don't want to be censored on here, and I don't want sensitive
people in
here, but I do want people, so goal should be to somehow change people from
sensitive to insensitive, tolerant.

I got a feeling like you and I are somehow connected, like you are me in past
life or something.. perhaps we are all just 1 split consciousness.

I feel, myself, like I'm at my limit, been for many many months..  due to my
never-ending eye problem..
Sensitive or not, computers seemed to heal me mentally.

I hope you live.. you never know what tomorrow might bring it might even
bring dead back alive... I sure hope so for myself, as I feel similar, I
suppose..

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[Spenser Truex]

Greetings fossy and friends,

Please consider reading the ancient RFC1855 on Netiquitte and saving it
to your bookmarks. Many great ideas that should be obvious have been
forgotten thanks to the profit-driven anti-privacy Zeitgeist.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855.html

Also, ESR's How To Ask Questions The Smart Way

https://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

I also suggest How To Become A Hacker:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html

I remain Your Most Humble and Obedient Servant,
--
CAEE B377 FC82 BAF9 102C  D22F C5CE D003 1AA8 E281
Spenser Truexhttps://equwal.com


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[Delete]

On May 21, 2023 4:19:06 PM UTC, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
>> Not sure I understand this correctly, but I think it's similar to what I
>> wanted to add to the thread; let me phrase it differently: abusing the
>> free speech argument to justify tone and style is just as harmful as
>> (self-)censorship. Freedom of speach is about ideas and messages.
>>
>> cheers
>> --s
>
>I don't know why, but I was presented with this aggressive behavior and I
>liked
>it, it seemed cool to me, it seemed powerful in some ways.. and given how
>deeply I can get into moral and other topics they can enrage me and keep me
>that way for a long time..
>
>Being polite for some reason seems too unmanly to me.. too against freedom of
>speech. If I don't mistake, I think I explained why being rude can help
>people. The part about snowflakes and why we got censorship.. people didn't
>handle this and this, then they were for some time used to it, so now they
>feel
>too insulted for most fucking shit, it's insane!
>
>
>
Hello, fossy.

I've been seing your messages around.
I'm not sure if I'm gonna see your reply. I din't think I'm gonna be stuck in 
this world for too long.

Just wanted to let you know to be a bit easier on people.

I used to be just like this and it brought me far.

All it took was one blow from life for everything to be taken away from me.

Don't make the same mistake.

Make good friends and commit to them.

Those words don't mean anything to me anymore. And they should to you. 
Otherwise, and I hope this isn't the case, you might suffer from a similar fate.

Consider this a warning from a dead man walking.

I don't demand anything from you.

I want you to be happy. Make people around you feel happy.

I wasn't strong enough to do it.

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[Greg Minshall]

40+ years ago (working on the Illiac-IV!), i blew up at a co-worker,
accused him of being a thief, etc.  i was livid.

my boss, whom i respected a lot, called me in and basically said, "You
don't have to like so-and-so.  But, here at work, I expect you to treat
him with respect."

i changed my behavior.  and, that advice of my former boss has always
stayed with me, has always seemed very valuable.

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[fossy]

> Not sure I understand this correctly, but I think it's similar to what I
> wanted to add to the thread; let me phrase it differently: abusing the
> free speech argument to justify tone and style is just as harmful as
> (self-)censorship. Freedom of speach is about ideas and messages.
>
> cheers
> --s

I don't know why, but I was presented with this aggressive behavior and I
liked
it, it seemed cool to me, it seemed powerful in some ways.. and given how
deeply I can get into moral and other topics they can enrage me and keep me
that way for a long time..

Being polite for some reason seems too unmanly to me.. too against freedom of
speech. If I don't mistake, I think I explained why being rude can help
people. The part about snowflakes and why we got censorship.. people didn't
handle this and this, then they were for some time used to it, so now they
feel
too insulted for most fucking shit, it's insane!

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[fossy]

> Hi there,
>
> On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 1:04 PM  wrote:
> > DISCLAIMER: a shittily-put rant which should be useful, hopefully.
Sorry, my
> > eyes hurt a lot already.. god fucking dammit :(
> >
> > You wanted a simple reply? You got a fucking storm lmao, enjoy.
>
> Talk to your green supplier, that they should double check their
> operation, it seems that some ingredients are causing heavy side
> effects...

If you read all that I've written, you'd understand my reasoning by now and
might even consider them good.


> And please don't abuse this list too hard. Treat others like you want
> to be treated; or do us a favor and unsubscribe voluntarily.
>
> Thanks,
> Anselm

I do treat others how I want to be treated, again: I talked about freedom
speech and consequences and explained everything in fucking detail.
You seem to be incapable of reading.

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[syg]

Hi,

> Yep. That is true. I didn't think of that at all! But then, why do
> current WiFi, etc. work at 2.4GHz, if device speeds aren't at those
> levels?
I am not an expert but my understanding is that chips really don't
bother with sampling radio signals at those speeds, it would be
extremely costly and overkill (this is what digital oscilloscopes to,
look at their price...).

In fact, you'll have some analog pre-processing that consists in
multiplying the signal by a fundamental frequency, the carrier, to
extract a usable signal at a frequency that can actually be handled by a
general-purpose chip (simplifying massively here).

Look up IQ streams and OFDM (modulation used for wifi signals).

In short you will need some specialised hardware no matter what, the
average ADC can't handle those speeds.

> I'll try wireless transmissions of files at 10MHz then in the lower
> frequency regions. Then by replacing hardware, maybe I'll just have to
> change a single number!
Uhh... Not really, WiFi is very complex, at the GHz speed, if you don't
factor in reverberations and work around it with very complex maths and
error correction, you'll have a range of a few centimeters. That was
solved in the 90s with a very lucrative patent from CSIRO:
https://csiropedia.csiro.au/wireless-lans/

Hope that brings in some perspective.

- syg

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[Josuah Demangeon]

To anyone who was genuinely interested in the topic:

Since Arduino was pointed out, something on that level that is very widely used 
is the ESP32:
https://docs.espressif.com/projects/esp-idf/en/latest/esp32/hw-reference/esp32/get-started-ethernet-kit.html

It happens that WiFi is cheap: a piece of PCB trace does an antenna, and a tiny 
inductor acts as a balun, that's it, you mostly have your WiFi transceiver.

The other way around is also possible: An MCU supporting Ethernet, and adding 
WiFi to it:

https://community.st.com/s/question/0D53W05qaHySAI/adding-wifi-to-stm32

Maybe some MCU with both Ethernet and a WiFi interface would work too:

https://www.nxp.com/products/wireless/wi-fi-plus-bluetooth-plus-802-15-4/wireless-mcu-with-integrated-radiobr-1x1-wi-fi-6-plus-bluetooth-low-energy-5-3-radios:RW610

Ultimately, looking at what an existing product has could be insightful:

https://mikrotik.com/product/RB911-5HnD

> These days even embedded systems will likely use an RTOS which may
> include an existing protocol stack, e.g. RTEMS [2] uses a port of the
> FreeBSD stack.

RTEMS is doing great work! Never tried it though.

Zephyr is getting a lot of contributions/popularity.
Possibly because it got a fancy website and is having the Linux Foundation logo 
on it.
Possibly because a few vendors (Nordic in particular) dropped their own 
proprietary
RTOS in favor of it.

There might eventually be examples on how to plug things together and get 
something like that working.

Last but not least, it is always possible to try to find a part with both 
ethernet and wifi support:

https://octopart.com/electronic-parts/integrated-circuits-ics/embedded-processors-and-controllers/microcontrollers
https://octopart.com/electronic-parts/integrated-circuits-ics/embedded-processors-and-controllers/microprocessors


Sagar Acharya  wrote:
> Yep. That is true. I didn't think of that at all! But then, why do current 
> WiFi, etc. work at 2.4GHz, if device speeds aren't at those levels?
> 
> I'll try wireless transmissions of files at 10MHz then in the lower frequency 
> regions. Then by replacing hardware, maybe I'll just have to change a single 
> number!
> 
> I already use just wired connections but today's extreme use of mobile phones 
> has made securing wireless networks a compulsion!
> Thanking you
> Sagar Acharya
> http://humaaraartha.in 
> 
> 
> 
> 13 May 2023, 15:20 by d...@dbrooke.me.uk:
> 
> > A simpler alternative to WiFi is to use wires 8-)
> >
> > Seriously, the radio frequency techniques necessary to provide
> > sufficient throughput for today's applications are inevitably complex.
> >
> > On Fri, May 12, 2023 at 05:43:04PM +0200, Sagar Acharya wrote:
> >
> >> What I'm trying to find is a simple C program which can be run on Arduino 
> >> and analog pins connected to an antenna.
> >>
> >
> > The lowest frequency at which WiFi operates is the 2.4GHz band, an
> > Arduino (there are many variants, of which some will be faster) is
> > likely to be clocked at 10s of MHz so will be unable to generate
> > suitable radio frequency signals at its analogue pins.
> >
> > Back in the '90s I was running TCP/IP over amateur radio at low data
> > rates (9600 bps) using KA9Q NOS [1] which was a single C program for
> > DOS. It's probably close to the minimum needed for a router, although it
> > does typically include some application level features.
> >
> > These days even embedded systems will likely use an RTOS which may
> > include an existing protocol stack, e.g. RTEMS [2] uses a port of the
> > FreeBSD stack.
> >
> > David
> >
> > [1] http://www.ka9q.net/code/ka9qnos/
> > [2] https://www.rtems.org/

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[David Brooke]

On Sat, May 13, 2023 at 05:18:53PM +0200, Sagar Acharya wrote:
> Yep. That is true. I didn't think of that at all! But then, why do current 
> WiFi, etc. work at 2.4GHz, if device speeds aren't at those levels?

The choice of radio frequency will be based on suitability (available
bandwidth, propagation characteristics etc.) and regulatory matters
(world-wide availability etc.). The 5GHz band is also widely used now.

Typically the lower layers of the protocol stack (including the radio
for wireless and the electrical interface for wired) will use a
dedicated chip set, so the microprocessor device need only concern
itself with higher level data. For low speed systems there are even chip
sets (e.g. WIZnet [1]) which offload as high as the TCP layer, though
these are less flexible than handling TCP/IP in software.

David

[1] https://www.wiznet.io/

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[Sagar Acharya]

Yep. That is true. I didn't think of that at all! But then, why do current 
WiFi, etc. work at 2.4GHz, if device speeds aren't at those levels?

I'll try wireless transmissions of files at 10MHz then in the lower frequency 
regions. Then by replacing hardware, maybe I'll just have to change a single 
number!

I already use just wired connections but today's extreme use of mobile phones 
has made securing wireless networks a compulsion!
Thanking you
Sagar Acharya
http://humaaraartha.in 



13 May 2023, 15:20 by d...@dbrooke.me.uk:

> A simpler alternative to WiFi is to use wires 8-)
>
> Seriously, the radio frequency techniques necessary to provide
> sufficient throughput for today's applications are inevitably complex.
>
> On Fri, May 12, 2023 at 05:43:04PM +0200, Sagar Acharya wrote:
>
>> What I'm trying to find is a simple C program which can be run on Arduino 
>> and analog pins connected to an antenna.
>>
>
> The lowest frequency at which WiFi operates is the 2.4GHz band, an
> Arduino (there are many variants, of which some will be faster) is
> likely to be clocked at 10s of MHz so will be unable to generate
> suitable radio frequency signals at its analogue pins.
>
> Back in the '90s I was running TCP/IP over amateur radio at low data
> rates (9600 bps) using KA9Q NOS [1] which was a single C program for
> DOS. It's probably close to the minimum needed for a router, although it
> does typically include some application level features.
>
> These days even embedded systems will likely use an RTOS which may
> include an existing protocol stack, e.g. RTEMS [2] uses a port of the
> FreeBSD stack.
>
> David
>
> [1] http://www.ka9q.net/code/ka9qnos/
> [2] https://www.rtems.org/
>

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[David Brooke]

A simpler alternative to WiFi is to use wires 8-)

Seriously, the radio frequency techniques necessary to provide
sufficient throughput for today's applications are inevitably complex.

On Fri, May 12, 2023 at 05:43:04PM +0200, Sagar Acharya wrote:
> What I'm trying to find is a simple C program which can be run on Arduino and 
> analog pins connected to an antenna.

The lowest frequency at which WiFi operates is the 2.4GHz band, an
Arduino (there are many variants, of which some will be faster) is
likely to be clocked at 10s of MHz so will be unable to generate
suitable radio frequency signals at its analogue pins.

Back in the '90s I was running TCP/IP over amateur radio at low data
rates (9600 bps) using KA9Q NOS [1] which was a single C program for
DOS. It's probably close to the minimum needed for a router, although it
does typically include some application level features.

These days even embedded systems will likely use an RTOS which may
include an existing protocol stack, e.g. RTEMS [2] uses a port of the
FreeBSD stack.

David

[1] http://www.ka9q.net/code/ka9qnos/
[2] https://www.rtems.org/

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[ssd]

Hi,

* Laslo Hunhold 2023-05-13 09:51

Even though I absolutely am for free speech and against censorship,
especially self-censorship due to "political correctness" (slippery
slope), what good is free speech when nobody listens? This happens both
when there's little signal over noise and the thread becomes hostile,
because people just check out.


Can't agree more. 


Suckless has always strived to be apolitical in terms of current
societal debates, and it's the only hacker community of that kind that
I know of in Germany. There are enough places to discuss the
current heated politial topics on the web, this is not it.


Everything is political, so is suckless, too, but I agree that it has
been a place where the "hot" politics have been avoided. This is good,
IMO, not because it's good to be apolitical, but because the
polarisation in hot societal debates, doesn't really enable an useful
discourse that contributes to developing better ideas or advance
understanding. The knowledge gain is close to zero.


Freedom isn't free, and in regard to free speech, I think the
responsibility of each individual is to make use of it only as much as
necessary.


Not sure I understand this correctly, but I think it's similar to what I
wanted to add to the thread; let me phrase it differently: abusing the
free speech argument to justify tone and style is just as harmful as
(self-)censorship. Freedom of speach is about ideas and messages.

cheers
--s

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[Hiltjo Posthuma]

On Sat, May 13, 2023 at 12:05:24AM -0700, Jeremy wrote:
> On 05/13/23 10:55AM, NRK wrote:
> > On Fri, May 12, 2023 at 10:10:31PM +0200, Yan Doroshenko wrote:
> > > Hello everyone,
> > > 
> > > I'd like to take a moment and thank everyone for an extremely polite,
> > > respectful and to the point discussion regarding the topic at hand. I was
> > > immensely pleased to have witnessed such a splendid display of a real
> > > community spirit as well as an immense level of professionalism. No doubt
> > > everyone involved is absolutely content with himself as well as his 
> > > actions
> > > and would have no doubt conducted the same way were it a face to face
> > > discussion.
> > 
> > It is true that this thread has been a massive cesspool. But
> > passive-aggressive replies like this does not help the situation - it
> > only contributes more to the cesspool.
> > 
> > - NRK
> > 
> 
> Have a look at the comment which Mr. Doroshenko was replying to. 
> 
> Personally, I couldn't agree more with Yan. It may seem passive-agressive
> but I believe English is not Mr. Doroshenko's first language, so I
> wouldn't be surprised by the "over-the-top" language.
> (your English is very good, by the way, Mr. Doroshenko)
> 
> Anselm & Hiltjo, suckless veterens(or at least the ones I see most often
> in the suckless threads), kept a cool head & have always refused to engage
> divisive rhetoric(name calling, all-caps, appeals to 1940s facism, etc).
> 

Speaking for myself.  I haven't always keep a cool head.  We're not robots and
only a human bean after all.

> The name-calling does make me a little sad("troll", "loser", "Nazi"),
> along with the characterizations of people's contributions to this
> thread("troll post", "garbage").
> 
> I'd like to think that there are feds(the "glow-in-the-dark" variety) or
> "competitors" sent to this mailing-list to try to trigger our insecurities
> & cause suckless to fragment, but that suckless is already inoculated &
> preoccupied with its own inner-self-criticism to be affected by outside
> forces.
> 
> Moderation in this mailing list is highly disciplined & I'm unironically
> impressed. Thank you.
> 

I don't remember the last time suckless ever banned someone on the mailinglist,
but it's not impossible.

> Jeremy
> 

-- 
Kind regards,
Hiltjo

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[Jeremy]

On 05/13/23 10:55AM, NRK wrote:
> On Fri, May 12, 2023 at 10:10:31PM +0200, Yan Doroshenko wrote:
> > Hello everyone,
> > 
> > I'd like to take a moment and thank everyone for an extremely polite,
> > respectful and to the point discussion regarding the topic at hand. I was
> > immensely pleased to have witnessed such a splendid display of a real
> > community spirit as well as an immense level of professionalism. No doubt
> > everyone involved is absolutely content with himself as well as his actions
> > and would have no doubt conducted the same way were it a face to face
> > discussion.
> 
> It is true that this thread has been a massive cesspool. But
> passive-aggressive replies like this does not help the situation - it
> only contributes more to the cesspool.
> 
> - NRK
> 

Have a look at the comment which Mr. Doroshenko was replying to. 

Personally, I couldn't agree more with Yan. It may seem passive-agressive
but I believe English is not Mr. Doroshenko's first language, so I
wouldn't be surprised by the "over-the-top" language.
(your English is very good, by the way, Mr. Doroshenko)

Anselm & Hiltjo, suckless veterens(or at least the ones I see most often
in the suckless threads), kept a cool head & have always refused to engage
divisive rhetoric(name calling, all-caps, appeals to 1940s facism, etc).

The name-calling does make me a little sad("troll", "loser", "Nazi"),
along with the characterizations of people's contributions to this
thread("troll post", "garbage").

I'd like to think that there are feds(the "glow-in-the-dark" variety) or
"competitors" sent to this mailing-list to try to trigger our insecurities
& cause suckless to fragment, but that suckless is already inoculated &
preoccupied with its own inner-self-criticism to be affected by outside
forces.

Moderation in this mailing list is highly disciplined & I'm unironically
impressed. Thank you.

Jeremy

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[NRK]

On Fri, May 12, 2023 at 10:10:31PM +0200, Yan Doroshenko wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I'd like to take a moment and thank everyone for an extremely polite,
> respectful and to the point discussion regarding the topic at hand. I was
> immensely pleased to have witnessed such a splendid display of a real
> community spirit as well as an immense level of professionalism. No doubt
> everyone involved is absolutely content with himself as well as his actions
> and would have no doubt conducted the same way were it a face to face
> discussion.

It is true that this thread has been a massive cesspool. But
passive-aggressive replies like this does not help the situation - it
only contributes more to the cesspool.

- NRK

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[Anselm Garbe]

Hi there,

On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 1:04 PM  wrote:
> DISCLAIMER: a shittily-put rant which should be useful, hopefully. Sorry, my
> eyes hurt a lot already.. god fucking dammit :(
>
> You wanted a simple reply? You got a fucking storm lmao, enjoy.

Talk to your green supplier, that they should double check their
operation, it seems that some ingredients are causing heavy side
effects...

And please don't abuse this list too hard. Treat others like you want
to be treated; or do us a favor and unsubscribe voluntarily.

Thanks,
Anselm

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[Yan Doroshenko]

Hello everyone,

I'd like to take a moment and thank everyone for an extremely polite, 
respectful and to the point discussion regarding the topic at hand. I 
was immensely pleased to have witnessed such a splendid display of a 
real community spirit as well as an immense level of professionalism. No 
doubt everyone involved is absolutely content with himself as well as 
his actions and would have no doubt conducted the same way were it a 
face to face discussion.


Regards,

Yan



On 5/12/23 22:02, Hiltjo Posthuma wrote:

On Fri, May 12, 2023 at 11:39:43AM -0700, Jeremy wrote:

On 05/12/23 08:27AM, Lee Phillips wrote:

Since the administrators of this list are unable or unwilling to block access 
to this loser, I'm unsubscribing. I don't need this kind of garbage in my 
inbox. I have plenty of other kinds of garbage already.


Lee

[...]

Even if we agreed that Fossy has nothing to contribute here, I believe
they are physically unable to block Mr. Fossy, simply because this kind
of moderation is costly.


Just for your info.  The message was only posted a few hours ago and I was
doing other things this day.

I think most people know whats an effective/good/"acceptable" way to
communicate.

Treat others how you want to be treated (very woke and uncool, I know).



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[Hiltjo Posthuma]

On Fri, May 12, 2023 at 11:39:43AM -0700, Jeremy wrote:
> On 05/12/23 08:27AM, Lee Phillips wrote:
> > Since the administrators of this list are unable or unwilling to block 
> > access to this loser, I'm unsubscribing. I don't need this kind of garbage 
> > in my inbox. I have plenty of other kinds of garbage already.
> > 
> > 
> > Lee
> 
> [...]
> 
> Even if we agreed that Fossy has nothing to contribute here, I believe
> they are physically unable to block Mr. Fossy, simply because this kind
> of moderation is costly.
> 

Just for your info.  The message was only posted a few hours ago and I was
doing other things this day.

I think most people know whats an effective/good/"acceptable" way to
communicate.

Treat others how you want to be treated (very woke and uncool, I know).

-- 
Kind regards,
Hiltjo

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[Jeremy]

On 05/12/23 08:27AM, Lee Phillips wrote:
> Since the administrators of this list are unable or unwilling to block access 
> to this loser, I'm unsubscribing. I don't need this kind of garbage in my 
> inbox. I have plenty of other kinds of garbage already.
> 
> 
> Lee

Though I don't appreciate Mr. Fossy sexualizing children, I wouldn't
call him a loser. Tough to argue he contributes less to this mailing
list than some of the patches that come through(my own, included).

Even if we agreed that Fossy has nothing to contribute here, I believe
they are physically unable to block Mr. Fossy, simply because this kind
of moderation is costly.

You can always donate to suckless through PayPal using their teasurer's
address: fina...@suckless.org

Jeremy

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[fossy]

> On Fri, 12 May 2023 08:27:07 -0600
> Lee Phillips  wrote:
>
> > Since the administrators of this list are unable or unwilling to block
access to this loser, I'm unsubscribing. I don't need this kind of
garbage in my inbox. I have plenty of other kinds of garbage already.
>
> Good. Fuck off back to your safe space, LOSER.
>
> Fucking sick of whiny FAGS like you who have absolutely ruined the
internet with your bitching and whining and complaining about anything
that isn't politically correct. Go back to Germany where you belong,
Nazi.
>
> Dave

Are you by any chance gay? Because I love you.

I fucking love how you ended him with a 'Dave' hah.

People will end with the "you know what? I changed my mind, I DO want freedom
of speech", and freedom of speech doesn't mean only speech that one likes.
It is crucial to toughen our minds and prepare for the revolution.

The internet will get a revolution.. well.. at least the "dark-net" side
of it
will... well.. it is the revolution in-it-self, actually.

I don't know about Jews and Nazi and Hitler, but what I do know, is this:
Someone so powerful that their power matches that of a god, on Earth, is
messing with our lives. Is it Jews? I don't know, but Cahlen:0 on Lbry/Odysee
calls them demons.. and well, they are.
Who is? The most powerful entities on Earth, alongside those politicians who
mention children and exploit normies (the norm of societies) via their
emotional SOFTNESS and stupidity.


"Encryption is bad because child pussy can be shared because of math I mean
encryption. So to combat that, you agree to give us ABSOLUTE CONTROL and we
pwomise to be fair and lessen the child pussy ont he internet."

Meanwhile they do this and that on the Epstein island, fucking hypocrits.

But yeah, perhaps we should have a [rant], or you might be interested in
unbanning me on #suckless lol.

Did I push too far with child pussy? No, beacuse you aren't a fucking
child, so
I don't have to watch out for your feelings by saying something like 'CSAM'.
Oh, wait, mentally you are a child? dammit.. grow up.

No, seriously, social media and shit-shot(toktok) does make people
younger
in their brain. I might call them 'patients' since they're all sick, affected
with dopamine addiction similar if not worse than porn.

Alright, at least I'm not the only free-speech fellow here. I feel even
better
now.

Fucking live long, Dave! What a fucking legend.

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[fossy]

> am not one of them (I have a banana IQ), but assume whoever is choose to
work
> with people not insulting them.

You're damn right about the banana IQ part.

Snowflake attitudes leads to censorship which leads to unfairness, anger,
rage,
and ultimately, among other things: shootings on wrong people, because
there's
like 0.0001% of places ont he internet where one can truly say whatever
they want, without being abused.
I've been abused however you can imagine, and I am fucking sick of it.

You don't want me and my freedom of speech? Goodbye (me getting banned on the
mailing list), and I'll start my own thing, separately.

Swearing and insulting/offending people and collaborating together with other
developers can be done; it's done so with I2Pd.
Orignal seems to work every.fucking.day. on I2Pd and even has time to
answer to
insults and trolls.
Swear-words and the norm there, if you were to come in-ther, you'd be
swearing
with your nice-talk.

I am not your mother, and you aren't mine, no reason to be nice and
"respective".

If a bunch wants to get shit done, they'll get shit done, and not whine
and cry
over a tiny insignificant insult.

Grow the fuck up, together with the rest of the internet addicts.

I don't care what happens afterwards on the mailing list, I did my part of
advocating freedom of speech among other things, and I.am.fucking.proud.
of it.

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[fossy]

> why would he interleave every sentense with swearing.

Because I believe in freedom of speech, and well - I just want to be whoever
the fuck I am, and what I am is what was presented (except for the "draft"
which was explained and is below.

> {1} does not work well with {2}... how about rewriting this draft sent too
early into a document that you can present to the firmware, hardware,
software,
and gateware developers, and antenna designers (essential if you want a
bit of
range, you talked about kilometers) you'd need to team-up with to get such a
project done?

You obviously did not read the fucking disclaimer, you piece of shit.
Stop wasting my health when I'm trying to help, even if by information that
might not be 100% what you were looking for.


And I could die tomorrow, so I thought I'd share little that I could, which
might be helpful, directly or sideways.

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[fossy]

> It's pretty clear that you don't know enough about the internet, its
protocols
> and how communication and addressing works. It's a complex mess and what
> you're trying to do won't work. You should acquire basic knowledge in order
> to ask more precise questions or, more importantly, answer them yourself.
> Start to inform yourself about networking and the inner workings of
networking
> devices instead of spamming this list with the same stuff over and over
again.
> As someone prior to me said, you act like you're on reddit.
>
> --
> Best Regards,
> Tom Schwindl

Or at least use IRC, right?
Where everyone uninterested can just ignore thon.

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[Dave Blanchard]

On Fri, 12 May 2023 08:27:07 -0600
Lee Phillips  wrote:

> Since the administrators of this list are unable or unwilling to block access 
> to this loser, I'm unsubscribing. I don't need this kind of garbage in my 
> inbox. I have plenty of other kinds of garbage already.

Good. Fuck off back to your safe space, LOSER.

Fucking sick of whiny FAGS like you who have absolutely ruined the internet 
with your bitching and whining and complaining about anything that isn't 
politically correct. Go back to Germany where you belong, Nazi.

Dave

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[Josuah Demangeon]

fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
> > On 23/05/11 04:03PM, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
> > 
> 
> How am I a troll, and more importantly: so what if you don't like
> swearwords? I
> also don't like many things about you, for example you being a little
> worthless
> snowflake.
> 
> Sweardwords is literally just a list of words that are taboo-ed by the
> majority.
> I see no valid reason for me to stop swearing, unless this is like
> Facebook or
> some shit, otherwise get the fuck off, or ignore me.
> 
> 
> > This list needs moderation ASAP, otherwise it risks turning into another
> Reddit (which, for those who might not know, is a veritable cesspool).
> 
> Moderation is literally why Reddit sucks ;).
> I said I was horny as a child, and I got banned for 'sexualizing children'.
> If you think that is a valid reason, then you are seriously mentally demented
> and a banana has higher IQ than you.
> 
> Because of people like you YouTube is the way it is.. or at least for
> people like you* ;)
> If you think that YouTube is all nice and cool and "wow so for me", then
> you need to stop wasting my time and go consoome ShitTube until you die,
> censorship addict!

People able to implement routers and willing to work on unpaid open
source projects is a scarce resource.

I am not one of them (I have a banana IQ), but assume whoever is
choose to work with people not insulting them.

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[Sagar Acharya]

Let us get back this conversation on track. What I'm trying to find is a simple 
C program which can be run on Arduino and analog pins connected to an antenna.

I did read this book "IPv6 essentials". What I want is a single C programs 
which distributed packets to say, 5 connected devices. The logic sounds pretty 
easy. Tag each request with an id, send, recieve and send it back to that 
device. Initially, handshakes would connect such devices.

Josuah's takes were interesting. I suggest you don't mind going along the 
tangent a bit. It adds to fun of life. I'm looking for low-range within home 
router.

Thanking you
Sagar Acharya
http://humaaraartha.in 



12 May 2023, 18:01 by m...@josuah.net:

> Страхиња Радић  wrote:
>
>> On 23/05/11 04:03PM, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
>> 
>>
>
> Good point: if the author cares about the project presented,
> why would he interleave every sentense with swearing.
>
>> This list needs moderation ASAP, otherwise it risks turning into another
>> Reddit (which, for those who might not know, is a veritable cesspool).
>>
>
> Agreed, [dev] is not [rant]. This was not pleasant to read.
>
>> [shittily-put rant]{1} which [should be useful]{2}
>>
>
> {1} does not work well with {2}... how about rewriting this draft
> sent too early into a document that you can present to the firmware,
> hardware, software, and gateware developers, and antenna designers
> (essential if you want a bit of range, you talked about kilometers)
> you'd need to team-up with to get such a project done?
>
> Eventually on its own repo to synthesize the infirmation about it.
>
> Even if you end-up finding a device that matches, the research about
> it can then be useful to people interested in it.
>

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[Lee Phillips]

Since the administrators of this list are unable or unwilling to block access 
to this loser, I'm unsubscribing. I don't need this kind of garbage in my 
inbox. I have plenty of other kinds of garbage already.


Lee

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[fossy]

> On 23/05/11 04:03PM, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
> 

How am I a troll, and more importantly: so what if you don't like
swearwords? I
also don't like many things about you, for example you being a little
worthless
snowflake.

Sweardwords is literally just a list of words that are taboo-ed by the
majority.
I see no valid reason for me to stop swearing, unless this is like
Facebook or
some shit, otherwise get the fuck off, or ignore me.


> This list needs moderation ASAP, otherwise it risks turning into another
Reddit (which, for those who might not know, is a veritable cesspool).

Moderation is literally why Reddit sucks ;).
I said I was horny as a child, and I got banned for 'sexualizing children'.
If you think that is a valid reason, then you are seriously mentally demented
and a banana has higher IQ than you.

Because of people like you YouTube is the way it is.. or at least for
people like you* ;)
If you think that YouTube is all nice and cool and "wow so for me", then
you need to stop wasting my time and go consoome ShitTube until you die,
censorship addict!

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[Josuah Demangeon]

Страхиња Радић  wrote:
> On 23/05/11 04:03PM, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:
> 

Good point: if the author cares about the project presented,
why would he interleave every sentense with swearing.

> This list needs moderation ASAP, otherwise it risks turning into another 
> Reddit (which, for those who might not know, is a veritable cesspool).

Agreed, [dev] is not [rant]. This was not pleasant to read.

> [shittily-put rant]{1} which [should be useful]{2}

{1} does not work well with {2}... how about rewriting this draft
sent too early into a document that you can present to the firmware,
hardware, software, and gateware developers, and antenna designers
(essential if you want a bit of range, you talked about kilometers)
you'd need to team-up with to get such a project done?

Eventually on its own repo to synthesize the infirmation about it.

Even if you end-up finding a device that matches, the research about
it can then be useful to people interested in it.

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[Tom Schwindl]

Hi Sagar,

On Wed May 10, 2023 at 8:38 PM CEST, Sagar Acharya wrote:
> I think routers ought to be way simpler than they currently are. I wonder if 
> y'all can recommend me some minimal C code which can be used as a router.
>
> I think that if the analog pins of arduino are connected to an antenna, and a 
> C code similar to,
>
> while 1
>     If (switch_1==1)        create_connection_with_handshake()
>     else if (switch_1==0)        send_packet_to_isp()
>         receive_packet_from_isp()
>         
> Something like that. Are there some existent projects like that? I really 
> don't think a router requires LibreCMC or OpenWRT like gigantic OSes.
>
>
> Thanking you
> Sagar Acharya
> http://humaaraartha.in 

It's pretty clear that you don't know enough about the internet, its protocols
and how communication and addressing works. It's a complex mess and what
you're trying to do won't work. You should acquire basic knowledge in order
to ask more precise questions or, more importantly, answer them yourself.
Start to inform yourself about networking and the inner workings of networking
devices instead of spamming this list with the same stuff over and over again.
As someone prior to me said, you act like you're on reddit.

-- 
Best Regards,
Tom Schwindl

Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[Страхиња Радић]

On 23/05/11 04:03PM, fo...@dnmx.org wrote:


This list needs moderation ASAP, otherwise it risks turning into another 
Reddit (which, for those who might not know, is a veritable cesspool).


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Re: [dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[fossy]

NOTE: verify by research, I not only cannot be arsed to provide 100% sure
information, but you shouldn't trust me, and frankly - I am in no health..
doing more than I should already :(

DISCLAIMER: a shittily-put rant which should be useful, hopefully. Sorry, my
eyes hurt a lot already.. god fucking dammit :(

You wanted a simple reply? You got a fucking storm lmao, enjoy.


A router is software (Linus Tech Tips made a video called 'Routers suck, make
your own"), but can be ASICs that are built specifically to perform best at
this and that (say enforcing firewall rules, etc.).


I know almost nothing on the matter (other than what I previously said),
but I
know this one thing for sure: it's not suckless enough :D.

And there are alternatives to WiFi(althogh you only mentioned it in the
title?).

A couple of them, but I think that you need to choose your target:
- short-range
- middle-range
- high-range

If I went with anything, I'd go with high-range, because I think that the
internet as a whole network is getting shittier and shittier, partially
because
of worse and worse laws.
Meaning all access more-less, to the internet is right now shit, and
pro-capitalism, pro-dependence, imagine it in 10 years: all 6G, only 10
meters
range for 1T speeds for all of your bloated ShitScripts and 8k movies on a
fucking phone (not yours, but theirs) and you walking on the Amazon walk
thing
that has WiFi lmao.

A few high-range (I'd say alternatives, but I don't think there's anything
but
radio at that range, on a higher scale) protocols, I guess.

One of them, although shitty, is god dammit what is it called LoRaWAN I
think.
But it's proprietary, that's the shitty part.. something something patents
something.. patented I think.
I took fucking notes SOMEWHERE about this, but cannot remember.. searching
for
them for a while.. fuck them.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LoRaWAN
LoRaWAN is like up to >10km with perfect clearing, but throw a tree here and
there, and what do you get? even if 1km, that's fucking awesome, in my
opinion!

There's an alternative to the super-cool LoRaWAN, here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LoRaWAN#See_also
I think last time I looked at this, the best seemed to be DASH7.

They even compare them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DASH7
DASH7 is 0-5km, etc.
Also LoRaWAN has that high range with low power, which is a) suprising and 2)
important.. not sure about DASH7.


And when I was figuring out networking and shit, I thought to myself: what if
most of networking was wireless (say a mesh network over something like
Yggdrasil, without ISPs, without internet, 100% free except hardware and
electricity.

I wasn't sure how it worked, but then again: you don't connect to 100
routers when using I2Pd, right? This means there'll be a limit, so then
everything in my head just clicked together except how the fuck do you
connect
to all peers necessary oh well have maybe 10 antennas? But what, you want
high-range? Doesn't that also mean narrow-band or whatever I want to say
narrow
signal? Like would do only 1 degree out of 360 or something lol, but a high
high distance..

H


Perhaps this is not what you wanted, and I'm a little wasting my time, again:
title confusing with e-mail body.


WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS
> "Ground breaking world record! LoRaWAN packet received at 702 km (436
miles)
distance"

In LoRaWAN references.. HOLY SHIT!


Anyways..
If you gonna build anything, having it suckless would be cool.
What would also be cool is the following things:
Can I have shit like firewall?
Like I want to deny/allow access STRICTLY to say shit like I2P/Tor, perhaps
have that optional?

What about hardware, though? I think we should be moving more towards FPGAs
because of hardware verification utopia:
Open Source is Insufficient to Solve Trust Problems in Hardware:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Hzb37RyagCQ




I agree that routers shouldn't be a whole OS like OpenWRT, but then again:
should it instead be machine assembly?
If you gonna write C, you are probably going to have some sort of embedded
system, no? Hmmm
I'd like to see a tiny thing, like RPI, doing say 1G networking, 3-5 ethernet
ports and like 1-5 antennas.
Would I buy one? Hell no, de-anon :(. That's one of fucking curses of
remaining
anonymous.


Holy shit, who makes something on GNU/Linux anymore? Phew, asking for
security
problems, I tell you!
At least use like FreeBSD or preferably OpenBSD, stupid routers!
HAHAHA OpenWRT is written in Lua?


But yeah.. not sure if I'd like buy one, but putting it together myself on a
breadboard? I could 100% do that.
Not sure how I'd fucking do that if 1000 components, but if <50, I could
do it,
after a few shows of alcohol to calm hands (if we talking CMR or whatever
those
small things are).

what about a RPI project? I have them, and many people have them, as well as
they could be already very familiar to some people.
Someone I think hosted a fucking website on a Raspberry Pi pico or something,
like 100M of RAM! hah!

[dev] Simpler WiFi alternatives

[Sagar Acharya]

I think routers ought to be way simpler than they currently are. I wonder if 
y'all can recommend me some minimal C code which can be used as a router.

I think that if the analog pins of arduino are connected to an antenna, and a C 
code similar to,

while 1
    If (switch_1==1)        create_connection_with_handshake()
    else if (switch_1==0)        send_packet_to_isp()
        receive_packet_from_isp()
        
Something like that. Are there some existent projects like that? I really don't 
think a router requires LibreCMC or OpenWRT like gigantic OSes.


Thanking you
Sagar Acharya
http://humaaraartha.in