Re: [dev] What do you guys think about competitive programming?

[Ben Woolley]

> On Aug 12, 2016, at 1:13 PM, Mattias Andrée  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2016 22:05:26 +0200
> Martin Kühne  wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 9:58 PM, Mattias Andrée
>>  wrote:
>>> Programming contests can be fun, but it depends on the
>>> competition, some barely have a focus on programming
>>> but mathematics instead. I don't see them as promoting
>>> bad practices, you are under extraordinary pressure so
>>> this should not influence your programming practices
>>> under normal conditions. I don't think the skills, that
>>> are generally useful for programming contests, are
>>> generally useful in other contexts. I hope recruiters
>>> realise the differences in programming competitions and
>>> what the employee will be doing, but that has merits
>>> similar to any other contests, mathematics skills, and
>>> other problem solving skills such as solving puzzles.
>>> It shows competitive attitude and cognitive
>>> capabilities.
>> 
>> 
>> I even see programming skills wrt free / open source
>> projects different to those an employer would expect. An
>> employer sooner says they're disappointed of somebody's
>> performance, while my personally growing patchset may
>> never actually ripen to be submitted to upstream for all
>> the various reasons. Maybe it's my own code that sucks,
>> but maybe it's the project's design decisions or upstream
>> maintainer's understanding which is incompatible with the
>> work. Nobody has to be loyal to anybody else in these
>> matters, which I see as a core feature of these things.
>> 
>> cheers!
>> mar77i
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> Noone should be fooled to thinking that hobby programming,
> which free software and open source projects often are,
> is representative of a typical programming job. And because
> of the time pressure in programming contests, programming
> contests are closer (although not that much) to a normal
> programming job than hobby programming.

The collaborative environment of open source projects is very important for a 
typical programming job, and shows ability across a wide variety of challenges 
and conditions. 

Also, I typically find that I am needing my juniors to slow down and my seniors 
to speed up. So if a junior is going fast, I likely won't like the result. 

But if someone is winning contest after contest, surely they probably have 
something of value. I would then ask to see their open source work to get a 
more complete picture. 

Re: [dev] What do you guys think about competitive programming?

[Mattias Andrée]

On Fri, 12 Aug 2016 22:05:26 +0200
Martin Kühne  wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 9:58 PM, Mattias Andrée
>  wrote:
> > Programming contests can be fun, but it depends on the
> > competition, some barely have a focus on programming
> > but mathematics instead. I don't see them as promoting
> > bad practices, you are under extraordinary pressure so
> > this should not influence your programming practices
> > under normal conditions. I don't think the skills, that
> > are generally useful for programming contests, are
> > generally useful in other contexts. I hope recruiters
> > realise the differences in programming competitions and
> > what the employee will be doing, but that has merits
> > similar to any other contests, mathematics skills, and
> > other problem solving skills such as solving puzzles.
> > It shows competitive attitude and cognitive
> > capabilities. 
> 
> 
> I even see programming skills wrt free / open source
> projects different to those an employer would expect. An
> employer sooner says they're disappointed of somebody's
> performance, while my personally growing patchset may
> never actually ripen to be submitted to upstream for all
> the various reasons. Maybe it's my own code that sucks,
> but maybe it's the project's design decisions or upstream
> maintainer's understanding which is incompatible with the
> work. Nobody has to be loyal to anybody else in these
> matters, which I see as a core feature of these things.
> 
> cheers!
> mar77i
> 

Agreed.

Noone should be fooled to thinking that hobby programming,
which free software and open source projects often are,
is representative of a typical programming job. And because
of the time pressure in programming contests, programming
contests are closer (although not that much) to a normal
programming job than hobby programming.


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Re: [dev] What do you guys think about competitive programming?

[Martin Kühne]

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 9:58 PM, Mattias Andrée  wrote:
> Programming contests can be fun, but it depends on the
> competition, some barely have a focus on programming
> but mathematics instead. I don't see them as promoting
> bad practices, you are under extraordinary pressure so
> this should not influence your programming practices
> under normal conditions. I don't think the skills, that
> are generally useful for programming contests, are
> generally useful in other contexts. I hope recruiters
> realise the differences in programming competitions and
> what the employee will be doing, but that has merits
> similar to any other contests, mathematics skills, and
> other problem solving skills such as solving puzzles.
> It shows competitive attitude and cognitive capabilities.
>


I even see programming skills wrt free / open source projects
different to those an employer would expect. An employer sooner says
they're disappointed of somebody's performance, while my personally
growing patchset may never actually ripen to be submitted to upstream
for all the various reasons. Maybe it's my own code that sucks, but
maybe it's the project's design decisions or upstream maintainer's
understanding which is incompatible with the work. Nobody has to be
loyal to anybody else in these matters, which I see as a core feature
of these things.

cheers!
mar77i

Re: [dev] What do you guys think about competitive programming?

[Mattias Andrée]

Programming contests can be fun, but it depends on the
competition, some barely have a focus on programming
but mathematics instead. I don't see them as promoting
bad practices, you are under extraordinary pressure so
this should not influence your programming practices
under normal conditions. I don't think the skills, that
are generally useful for programming contests, are
generally useful in other contexts. I hope recruiters
realise the differences in programming competitions and
what the employee will be doing, but that has merits
similar to any other contests, mathematics skills, and
other problem solving skills such as solving puzzles.
It shows competitive attitude and cognitive capabilities.

On Fri, 12 Aug 2016 21:44:48 +0200
Kevin Michael Frick  wrote:

> Hello suckless.org fellows!
> 
> I find myself competing in the national selection for the
> IOI[0] and was wondering: what does the suckless.org
> community think about competitive programming contests?
> 
> They certainly promote bad practices such as namespace
> pollution, non-descriptive naming of variables, lack of
> comments and most of all the use of C++[1], however they
> also really help in expanding one's knowledge about
> algorithms and well-known computer science problems,
> which in turn means better chances of getting a job in
> the CS field, and they also draw the attention of a lot
> of students towards CS and motivate us to be better
> programmers.
> 
> So, what do you think?
> 
> [0] http://www.olimpiadi-informatica.it (national
> selection), http://www.ioinformatics.org/index.shtml (IOI)
> [1] (you could implement whatever data structure you need
> in C, of course, but since you can't bring templates with
> you on an USB drive, writing std::set is 100x faster
> than implementing a bug-free red-black BST in pure C when
> you have 3 hrs to solve 3 problems)
> 



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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

[dev] What do you guys think about competitive programming?

[Kevin Michael Frick]

Hello suckless.org fellows!

I find myself competing in the national selection for the IOI[0] and
was wondering: what does the suckless.org community think about
competitive programming contests?

They certainly promote bad practices such as namespace pollution,
non-descriptive naming of variables, lack of comments and most of all
the use of C++[1], however they also really help in expanding one's
knowledge about algorithms and well-known computer science problems,
which in turn means better chances of getting a job in the CS field,
and they also draw the attention of a lot of students towards CS and
motivate us to be better programmers.

So, what do you think?

[0] http://www.olimpiadi-informatica.it (national selection),
http://www.ioinformatics.org/index.shtml (IOI)
[1] (you could implement whatever data structure you need in C, of
course, but since you can't bring templates with you on an USB drive,
writing std::set is 100x faster than implementing a bug-free
red-black BST in pure C when you have 3 hrs to solve 3 problems)