Re: F42 Change Proposal: Fedora Plasma Workstation (System-Wide)

[Gerald B. Cox]

From what I've been reading it seems the path of least resistance is to just 
keep the Fedora Workstation branding and have two options:  GNOME or KDE 
Plasma.  I don't believe that it should be overly confusing to ask people to 
pick one.  I just asked Google Gemini to come up with a suggestion and here is 
the output.  Obviously, the AI output can be improved, but at least to me, it 
seems fairly straightforward:

<<>>

Here's how to communicate the option between GNOME and KDE on Fedora 
Workstation's webpage:

Headline:

Choice & Control: Choose Your Fedora Workstation Experience
Power Up Your Desktop: GNOME or KDE Plasma for Fedora

Body:

Fedora Workstation Now Offers a Choice: For the first time, you can choose 
between the streamlined GNOME desktop or the highly customizable KDE Plasma 
desktop during Fedora Workstation installation.

Find Your Perfect Fit: Whether you prefer a clean and user-friendly experience 
(GNOME) or a feature-rich and adaptable desktop (KDE Plasma), Fedora 
Workstation has you covered.

Seamless Switching (Optional): Briefly mention the ability to install both 
environments later, but emphasize the ease of choice during installation.

Icons/Visuals:
Use visuals that showcase the strengths of each desktop. A clean and modern 
image for GNOME and a feature-rich, customizable image for KDE Plasma.

Call to Action:

Download Fedora Workstation Now! (with clear links)

Learn More About GNOME & KDE Plasma (with links to informative pages)

Keep it Simple:
Avoid technical jargon. Focus on the user experience benefits of each desktop.
--
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FYI... yubioath-desktop is slated to be removed from F38 repository

[Gerald B. Cox]

yubioath-desktop and potentially yubikey-manager-qt will not be included in the 
F38 repository due to packaging issues. For additional information and 
suggested mitigations, please review:  
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f38-yubioath-desktop-yubikey-manager-qt-will-no-longer-be-available-in-fedora-repository/45921/6
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Re: F34 Change proposal: Wayland by Default for KDE Plasma Desktop (System-Wide Change)

[Gerald B. Cox]

I really don't see we have much of a choice here.  X11 is eventually going away 
and Wayland is the path forward.  That's already been decided, so at this point 
it isn't a matter for debate.  Human nature being what it is, people tend to 
procrastinate and not do anything until pressed up against a deadline - so here 
we are.  Wayland has been discussed for over a decade now, so this shouldn't be 
a surprise to anyone.  I've been opening bugs whenever I see issues, so 
upstream, packagers and end users are aware of the issue.  If I know of a 
workaround or alternative that works, I list it.  There is currently an open 
issue with a black screen and SDDM in conjunction with Radeon graphics.  In my 
opinion, if this isn't resolved, we should switch to GDM rather than delay 
making Wayland the default.  If a particular application doesn't work in 
Wayland, we should advise people of alternatives rather than holding this 
change hostage.  I've seen great improvements between 5.19 and 5.20 - and 5.2
 1 promises more.  So if you haven't tried wayland and plasma lately - you 
should try again.

If you notice issues, please open bugs.
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Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

[Gerald B. Cox]

> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 7:54 PM Gerald B. Cox  
> I'm wondering, how do you actually want to define a "production
> release" of a kernel module?
> Does being part of an upstream kernel release (not in staging modules)
> not qualify?
> Because that's already the case, and has been for years. The
> introduction of the btrfs module even predates all six currently
> maintained LTS branches.
> 
> Fabio

Hey Fabio,

No being part of an upstream kernel would be an important consideration for 
make a file system available for use (see F2FS) but default status requires a 
higher level of scrutiny.  Many people appear to be going straight to the weeds 
on this proposal without backing up and seeing the big picture.  It's the 
classic can't see the forest for the trees paradigm.  Under Matt's leadership 
and repeating his words "we've worked hard to get Fedora a reputation of being 
problem-free and something that leads without being "bleeding edge". It's a 
tricky balance."  I've posted my concerns and will wait until when and if there 
is a FESCo ticket to formally submit them.  
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Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

[Gerald B. Cox]

Thanks for the reply Justin, but that doesn't answer my two concerns which
I reposted earlier.  I don't believe the questions I asked were
unreasonable for something we're making a distribution default, regardless
of spin, and they shouldn't be hard questions to answer.  Everyone knows
that if BTRFS was in production status the headlines would be everywhere,
i.e.:  "After a Decade in Development BTRFS reaches Production Milestone"
but that's not the case because we all know it isn't.  Not to mention the
Redhat stance in all this.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:00 PM Justin Forbes  wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 5:17 PM Gerald B. Cox  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 2:30 PM Chris Murphy 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 2:53 PM Gerald B. Cox  wrote:
> >>
> >> > Why would we be installing something by default that has widely known
> broken functionality?
> >>
> >> Because the default configuration we're using isn't broken and is
> >> better than the alternatives being evaluated.
> >
> >
> > That raises the question of why RHEL deprecated BTRFS and why Fedora now
> apparently believes that BTRFS is better than XFS?
> >
>
> Please note the Workstation SIG is not all of Fedora, this is not
> being proposed for the server spin.
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Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

[Gerald B. Cox]

Thanks for the response, but you talked around my two main questions
without addressing them.  Chris asked to "state it clearly" so I put my
main questions after
the ===>.  I've reposted that initial reply in full, and then I responded
to your specific comments.

I have no problems with BTRFS being available in Fedora for people to use.
I have a huge problem with us making it the default... even for a subset of
users.  Making something default should be a huge lift, especially when
we're talking about a file system.  At a bare minimum there needs to be at
least 1 production release of BTRFS and you need to explain fully the
Redhat question.  The onus is on the people proposing the change, not the
other way around.

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 5:04 PM Chris Murphy 
wrote:

>
> But if you can state clearly why it isn't persuasive in a way anyone
> could possibly answer, I'm sure someone will try. And it would help
> improve the proposal.
>

Making something the default is a high bar to clear.  There needs to be a
compelling reason why?  The things listed in the proposal may be nice for
some people, but the uninformed masses don't care.  Further complicating
the matter is that Redhat deprecated BTRFS.  That to me raises a big red
flag that needs to be addressed.

===> You need to clearly identify what gave Redhat heartburn and identify
what has changed to make you believe those issues have been addressed.

Another thing that is particularly troubling is I can't find where it is
stated that there is a production release of BTRFS.  I've seen statements
that it is "testing in production" - whatever that means... and that it has
been deployed on "millions of servers" - but the only statement as to code
stability just says that "The Btrfs code base is under heavy development."
I can't find an official statement from the project that there has ever
been a production release.  This is concerning to me because when I
reported problems in the past I was told basically, "silly you... BTRFS
should only be used in non-critical systems - if you're concerned about
stability you shouldn't be running it."

===> If we are considering BTRFS as a default, at a bare minimum there
should be an official production release from the project.


On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 6:31 AM Michael Catanzaro 
wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 6:25 pm, Gerald B. Cox  wrote:
> > Making something the default is a high bar to clear.  There needs to
> > be a compelling reason why?  The things listed in the proposal may be
> > nice for some people, but the uninformed masses don't care.
>
> There is a large list of benefits, listed at
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/BtrfsByDefault#Benefit_to_Fedora.
> ...
>

That doesn't really address my point that most people don't care,
especially those in the supposedly narrow range it is claimed is the target
for this change.  Additionally, Redhat claimed in 2017:  "In the meantime,
many of the features that btrfs provides are now available via other more
mature and stable storage technologies like ext4, XFS, LVM, etc. We've put
considerable effort into improving these technologies to the point where
current Red Hat offerings already cover almost the entire btrfs feature
set."

Again, the elephant in the room is:
===> You need to clearly identify what gave Redhat heartburn and identify
what has changed to make you believe those issues have been addressed.


>
> > Another thing that is particularly troubling is I can't find where it
> > is stated that there is a production release of BTRFS. I've seen
> > statements that it is "testing in production" - whatever that
> > means... and that it has been deployed on "millions of servers" - but
> > the only statement as to code stability just says that "The Btrfs
> > code base is under heavy development." I can't find an official
> > statement from the project that there has ever been a production
> > release. This is concerning to me because when I reported problems in
> > the past I was told basically, "silly you... BTRFS should only be
> > used in non-critical systems - if you're concerned about stability
> > you shouldn't be running it."
>
> Josef has provided numerous statements in this thread regarding general
> stability. See https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Status for a
> detailed breakdown.
>

And?  I don't know about you, when dealing with file systems a chart with
OK, Mostly OK and Unstable doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies.
Especially when OK is defined as:  "should be safe to use, no known major
defficiencies" .  "Should" raises a red flag with me, especially given the
history of BTRFS.  Again, if we're going to be making something the
DEFAULT, it should have at least 1 production re

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 5:04 PM Chris Murphy 
wrote:

>
> But if you can state clearly why it isn't persuasive in a way anyone
> could possibly answer, I'm sure someone will try. And it would help
> improve the proposal.
>

Making something the default is a high bar to clear.  There needs to be a
compelling reason why?  The things listed in the proposal may be nice for
some people, but the uninformed masses don't care.  Further complicating
the matter is that Redhat deprecated BTRFS.  That to me raises a big red
flag that needs to be addressed.

===> You need to clearly identify what gave Redhat heartburn and identify
what has changed to make you believe those issues have been addressed.

Another thing that is particularly troubling is I can't find where it is
stated that there is a production release of BTRFS.  I've seen statements
that it is "testing in production" - whatever that means... and that it has
been deployed on "millions of servers" - but the only statement as to code
stability just says that "The Btrfs code base is under heavy development."
I can't find an official statement from the project that there has ever
been a production release.  This is concerning to me because when I
reported problems in the past I was told basically, "silly you... BTRFS
should only be used in non-critical systems - if you're concerned about
stability you shouldn't be running it."

===> If we are considering BTRFS as a default, at a bare minimum there
should be an official production release from the project.
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Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 2:30 PM Chris Murphy 
wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 2:53 PM Gerald B. Cox  wrote:
>
> > Why would we be installing something by default that has widely known
> broken functionality?
>
> Because the default configuration we're using isn't broken and is
> better than the alternatives being evaluated.
>

That raises the question of why RHEL deprecated BTRFS and why Fedora now
apparently believes that BTRFS is better than XFS?


> >  I would think it would be more appropriate to have people who
> specifically want to use BTRFS functionality and are aware and
> knowledgeable of the risks to seek it out rather than have it be some sort
> of selective default.  The target audience you're aiming at by making it
> the default doesn't know FAT from NTFS from EXT4 from XFS from BTRFS or do
> they care.   Neither are they aware or even care about purported benefits.
>
> And they're going to get into trouble with raid56 how? Are you going
> to tell them they should convert to raid56? How is it even relevant?
>

That's not what I said ... in fact, no where in the paragraph did I mention
raid56.  Re-read what I wrote.


> Literally none of this is correct.
>

Then BTRFS needs to clarify/correct their documentation.


> >> > Why are we not concentrating on Stratis and XFS?
> >>
> ...
> >
> > Ok, then why aren't we working on that?
>
> I don't know. Why aren't you working on that? By all means put
> together a competing proposal.
>
> I'm working on what I'm working on.
>

 That's an obvious dodge, Chris.  Stratis and XFS are Redhat
projects.  Many times Fedora demos technologies for RHEL.
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Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 2:01 PM Josef Bacik  wrote:

> On 6/27/20 4:53 PM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 1:23 PM Chris Murphy  > <mailto:li...@colorremedies.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > The proposal has nothing to do with raid56, let alone by default. The
> > installer doesn't offer it as an option. And it's not relevant to the
> > desktop. We're talking about single device btrfs file systems.
> >
> > Isn't the proposal talking about BTRFS as a default for workstations?
> Are you
> > saying that Anaconda is just going to check to see if a PC has only one
> hard
> > drive and then install BTRFS there, but if it has two devices use
> something
> > else?  Why would we be installing something by default that has widely
> known
> > broken functionality?  I would think it would be more appropriate to
> have people
> > who specifically want to use BTRFS functionality and are aware and
> knowledgeable
> > of the risks to seek it out rather than have it be some sort of
> selective
> > default.  The target audience you're aiming at by making it the default
> doesn't
> > know FAT from NTFS from EXT4 from XFS from BTRFS or do they care.
> Neither are
> > they aware or even care about purported benefits.
> >
> >
> >  > So, BTRFS is great, ready for prime time... many people are using
> it,
> > etc. etc. etc. until something goes wrong and then you get... well,
> it's
> > experimental and not intended for production.  Sucks to be you.
> >
> > The raid56 criticism is relevant to raid56 use cases. What you're
> > doing above is an association fallacy.
> >
> >
> > Actually no, this doesn't apply to just raid56.  I haven't seen where
> BTRFS has
> > been declared production ready.  It's always been this or that feature
> is OK,
> > another feature is mostly OK, or don't use this feature.  Then when
> something
> > goes wrong, the response is it's still experimental and not intended for
> > production workloads.  People then mention Facebook uses it... but my
> > understanding is that Facebook is "testing it in production".  They
> don't RELY
> > on it in production.  Why do we want to push something out like that as
> a default?
>
> Huh?  We absolutely rely on it in production, our whole container system
> is
> built around it.  It's literally the only thing that works with IO
> isolation
> with cgroups.  IDK where you're getting your information, but its wrong.
> It's
> deployed on millions of machines, most of our infrastructure is built
> around
> using multiple core features.  Thanks,
>
>

Actually, I got my information here:
https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Production_Users

Since you're responding here now, I'm assuming you're speaking officially
for the BTRFS project.  Could you
please either give the up-to-date official status or point me to some
project information that has been kept current?

So you're saying now that BTRFS is now officially production ready?
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Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 1:23 PM Chris Murphy 
wrote:

>
> The proposal has nothing to do with raid56, let alone by default. The
> installer doesn't offer it as an option. And it's not relevant to the
> desktop. We're talking about single device btrfs file systems.
>
>

Isn't the proposal talking about BTRFS as a default for workstations?  Are
you saying that Anaconda is just going to check to see if a PC has only one
hard drive and then install BTRFS there, but if it has two devices use
something else?  Why would we be installing something by default that has
widely known broken functionality?  I would think it would be more
appropriate to have people who specifically want to use BTRFS functionality
and are aware and knowledgeable of the risks to seek it out rather than
have it be some sort of selective default.  The target audience you're
aiming at by making it the default doesn't know FAT from NTFS from EXT4
from XFS from BTRFS or do they care.   Neither are they aware or even care
about purported benefits.


>
> > So, BTRFS is great, ready for prime time... many people are using it,
> etc. etc. etc. until something goes wrong and then you get... well, it's
> experimental and not intended for production.  Sucks to be you.
>
> The raid56 criticism is relevant to raid56 use cases. What you're
> doing above is an association fallacy.
>

Actually no, this doesn't apply to just raid56.  I haven't seen where BTRFS
has been declared production ready.  It's always been this or that feature
is OK, another feature is mostly OK, or don't use this feature.  Then when
something goes wrong, the response is it's still experimental and not
intended for production workloads.  People then mention Facebook uses it...
but my understanding is that Facebook is "testing it in production".  They
don't RELY on it in production.  Why do we want to push something out like
that as a default?

> Why are we not concentrating on Stratis and XFS?
>
> This is partly addressed in the device-mapper section of the proposal,
> as it depends on dm-thin. Integration with the desktop represents
> non-trivial work to get both CLI and GUI apps to report thin pool
> values, which is necessary because only it knows the truth of free and
> used space. There is no compression, integrity, or cgroup2-IO
> isolation support either, all of which are features we think are
> useful to users now and in the near future.
>
> Also, Stratis specifically it's not supported as system root, and has
> no installer support.
>

Ok, then why aren't we working on that?
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Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

[Gerald B. Cox]

I was an early adopter and used BTRFS for many years, singing its praises.
I was particularly interested in the RAID capabilities.  Then in 2016 the
bomb was dropped that:

"It turns out the RAID5 and RAID6 code for the Btrfs file-system's built-in
RAID support is faulty and users should not be making use of it if you care
about your data.

There has been this mailing list thread

since the end of July about Btrfs scrub recalculating the wrong parity in
RAID5. The wrong parity and unrecoverable errors has been confirmed by
multiple parties. The Btrfs RAID 5/6 code has been called as much as fatally
flawed
 --
"more or less fatally flawed, and a full scrap and rewrite to an entirely
different raid56 mode on-disk format may be necessary to fix it. And what's
even clearer is that people /really/ shouldn't be using raid56 mode for
anything but testing with throw-away data, at this point. Anything else is
simply irresponsible."

The current situation as I understand it is the problem is "mostly fixed" -
whatever that means.

So, BTRFS is great, ready for prime time... many people are using it, etc.
etc. etc. until something goes wrong and then you get... well, it's
experimental and not intended for production.  Sucks to be you.

At some point you have to fish or cut bait.  I was under the impression
that Redhat had done exactly that with the announcement and direction of
Stratis.

Why are we not concentrating on Stratis and XFS?  Seems to me after waiting
for almost a decade for the promise of BTRFS to be fulfilled and then
having so many
people be burned, we should be turning the page rather than continuing to
rehash the same old arguments.
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Re: New version of Copr

[Gerald B. Cox]

If I understand the discussion here:
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/can-the-copr-category-be-removed-from-the-latest-list/2420

Alot of the traffic can be dealt with using the "do not list this category
in latest" function - and there will be an RFE for the "new" category.  The
one
thing that I believe can and should be fixed by discourse as a bug would be
the fact that the COPR items are appearing in the RSS feeds, i.e.
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/latest.rss and most likely
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/new.rss


It just needs to be reported to discourse so it can be addressed.

On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 10:17 AM Kevin Fenzi  wrote:

> On 9/5/19 9:55 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 04, 2019 at 09:17:49AM -0700, John Harris wrote:
> >> Does the inefficiency of that feature outweigh its usefulness? Why does
> it
> >> rely on Discourse for that feature?
> >
> > I think it's pretty clearly a useful feature, although I won't speak to
> any
> > inefficiency. And I'm glad to see that it _does_ use Discourse -- better
> to
> > tie into something made for discussion than to home-brew a new thing.
>
> I wonder... perhaps it could make a thread per user/group instead of per
> project? That would reduce the traffic a lot, and I would expect that
> would capture the need for discussion with the owner?
>
> kevin
>
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Re: Debates/back and forths

[Gerald B. Cox]

You again mention that they are "exactly the same" and then mention their
differences.  If you want to use your storage space duplicating mailing
list archives, have at it - not everybody wants to do that.  Again, one is
active the other is passive.

On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 9:34 PM John Harris  wrote:

> On Sunday, September 1, 2019 6:22:04 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > John you're comparing apples and oranges.  One is active the other is
> > passive.  One uses your space allocation the other doesn't.
>
> Sorry, what? What space allocation? If you're talking about emails, my
> Maildir
> hasn't reached a size over 1 GiB in over two years of being on very high
> traffic mailing lists, including kernel lists.
>
> The two are *exactly the same*. Clicking on the button makes it so you
> don't
> receive notifications about that thread anymore. Additionally, and this
> covers
> lists other than Fedora hosted mailing lists, on most clients you can
> right
> click the thread and "Ignore", "Delete" or "Create Filter From Thread" and
> pipe that thread to the trash.
>
> --
> John M. Harris, Jr. 
> Splentity
> https://splentity.com/
>
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Re: Debates/back and forths

[Gerald B. Cox]

John you're comparing apples and oranges.  One is active the other is
passive.  One uses your space allocation the other doesn't.

On Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 19:07 John Harris  wrote:

> On Friday, August 30, 2019 5:40:22 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > You just explained exactly why it was different ;-)
>
> I'm sorry if you believe that to be the case, but it is not. I explained
> that
> you can mute on both platforms, if you choose to do so.
>
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Re: Debates/back and forths

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 6:55 AM Chris Peters  wrote:

>
> PS I won't take this thread any further. The irony of a back and forth in
> the back and forth thread doesn't escape me!
>
>
That's hilarious and true.  I was thinking the exact same thing...
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Re: Debates/back and forths

[Gerald B. Cox]

You just explained exactly why it was different ;-)

On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 9:23 PM John Harris  wrote:

> On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 5:09:23 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > It's somewhat ironic that Discourse would solve this issue.  As I
> > previously mentioned, I also don't like having my inbox flooded with
> forum
> > threads that don't interest me.  The mailing list solution requires you
> > setup filters or continuously delete dozens of emails.  Discourse however
> > allows you to select what you want to read without needing to clean up
> > afterwards.  As I also pointed out RSS would make HyperKitty a somewhat
> > acceptable alternative - or as Kevin K. pointed out, you could also use
> > NNTP.  I personally would rather not, but maybe that would fit your use
> > case until a good solution could be implemented.
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 4:42 AM Markus Larsson 
> wrote:
> > > On 28 August 2019 13:34:54 CEST, "Dan Čermák" <
> > >
> > > dan.cer...@cgc-instruments.com> wrote:
> > > >Hi Danni,
> > > >
> > > >Danny Lee  writes:
> > > >> Hi all,
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm new to the devel list and fedora in general, but i was wondering
> > > >
> > > >if
> > > >
> > > >> these kind of back and forths between a few people is a frequent
> > > >> occurrence.  I came to Fedora to volunteer what little spare time I
> > > >
> > > >have
> > > >
> > > >> to help the Fedora project in some little ways. I don't feel that
> > > >
> > > >should
> > > >
> > > >> include wading through dozens of emailed back and forths between
> > > >> individuals who seem to have strong, immovable opinions, I just
> don't
> > > >>
> > > >> have time for that.
> > > >
> > > >Welcome to the club of all the "silent" contributors!
> > > >
> > > >Usually I try to follow discussions if they appear relevant or
> > > >interesting to me, but once they "tip over", I mark that thread as
> > > >deleted and mercilessly nuke everything new that comes in.
> > > >Yeah, I might miss some important information, but it's unlikely tbh
> > > >once you are 20 replies deep into a thread.
> > > >On the other hand: I don't want to spend all my free time reading
> > > >emails.
> > > >
> > > >So, if you don't care about a specific topic: just ignore & delete it.
> > >
> > > This is how I think most do it. Just read the interesting parts.
> > >
> > > >Btw, this list is imho still pretty moderate, only the occasional
> > > >controversy causes a huge thread of replies (and people manage to stay
> > > >civilized and tend to bring in new arguments). There's other lists
> > > >(unnamed to protect the guilty) where the signal to noise ratio is
> > > >much,
> > > >much worse.
> > >
> > > The discourse debate and the fw debate are not the norm but the
> exception.
> > > We see a few of those from time to time. Most threads aren't like that
> > > though.
> > >
> > > >> Is there any chance there is a moderated list or discussion group
> > > >
> > > >about
> > > >
> > > >> current project tasks and issues rather than debates about how to do
> > > >> things?  Or perhaps, a way to turn off certain threads or block
> > > >
> > > >certain
> > > >
> > > >> posters?
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks for your time and info you can provide.
>
> Discourse is not much different from email here. You can see the threads,
> and
> you choose whether or not you want to read them. If you don't want them to
> hit
> your inbox or notifications, you can click a button on your client to stop
> receiving future emails or notifications from that thread.
>
> --
> John M. Harris, Jr. 
> Splentity
> https://splentity.com/
>
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Re: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

I use the gmail android app and on desktop I use the gmail web interface.

On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 3:19 PM Przemek Klosowski via devel <
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> On 8/27/19 8:36 PM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > Regarding NNTP I've haven't used newsreaders in years and to be honest
> dealing with yet another tool isn't something I would want to do
>
> I forgot what email client you use, but all clients I ever used (Emacs
> and Thunderbird) also do NNTP. After all, it's just another stream of
> messages.
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Re: Error with fedpkg update

[Gerald B. Cox]

Thanks all for the replies... I was under the impression from the previous
response I needed to submit to bodhi, but I believe I misinterpreted and
that was intended for future changes going forward.  Looking at bodhi now
it's a little confusing seeing f29, f30 and f32 there but no f31.

On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 12:52 PM Iñaki Ucar  wrote:

> On Thu, 29 Aug 2019 at 17:36, Gerald B. Cox  wrote:
> >
> > If I do that, I believe I get into a situation where the other builds
> f29, f30 and F32 are behind, which if I remember correctly causes other
> issues - and shouldn't we understand what is wrong with the system rather
> than just trying to hack around it?
>
> copyq was in the Fedora 31 compose report three days ago:
>
>
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/G5I2FHHMBBIGHCW4RZIUMBSXAKNNZHCW/
>
> Iñaki
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Re: Error with fedpkg update

[Gerald B. Cox]

If I do that, I believe I get into a situation where the other builds f29,
f30 and F32 are behind, which if I remember correctly causes other issues -
and shouldn't we understand what is wrong with the system rather than just
trying to hack around it?

On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 12:17 PM Adam Williamson 
wrote:

> On Thu, 2019-08-29 at 07:56 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > Guys, I'm still getting this message:
> > fedpkg update
> > Could not execute update: Could not generate update request: Cannot find
> > release associated with build: copyq-3.9.2-1.fc31, tags: ['f31']
> > A copy of the filled in template is saved as bodhi.template.last
>
> I mean, as a simple fix why not just bump it and do a -2 build and see
> if you can send an update for that?
> --
> Adam Williamson
> Fedora QA Community Monkey
> IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
> http://www.happyassassin.net
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Re: Error with fedpkg update

[Gerald B. Cox]

Guys, I'm still getting this message:
fedpkg update
Could not execute update: Could not generate update request: Cannot find
release associated with build: copyq-3.9.2-1.fc31, tags: ['f31']
A copy of the filled in template is saved as bodhi.template.last

I just checked bodhi and other packages are being accepted for testing for
f31.  What is going on?



On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:20 PM Kevin Fenzi  wrote:

> On 8/23/19 11:10 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> >
> > It won't appear in Bodhi at all, but it will get the koji tag 'f31' and
> > so appear in Fedora 31 composes.
> >
> > This is how Rawhide and Branched-pre-Bodhi-enablement *always* worked -
> > it just feels a bit odd now because we have the gating stuff enabled
> > for Rawhide, but it wasn't set up for the short time between Branch
> > point and Bodhi enablement for the branch; so right now Rawhide is
> > working the 'new' way with auto-created Bodhi updates, but F31 is
> > working the 'old' way with no Bodhi at all.
>
> NOTE: for next branching I think the idea is to enable gating for it as
> well as rawhide. This will be less confusing for everyone and make more
> sense... we just weren't ready for it this time.
>
> kevin
>
>
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Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 31 Beta Freeze

[Gerald B. Cox]

I'm still getting these messages when I try to do "fedpkg update" for F31:

fedpkg update
Could not execute update: Could not generate update request: Cannot find
release associated with build: copyq-3.9.2-1.fc31, tags: ['f31']
A copy of the filled in template is saved as bodhi.template.last

On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 7:37 AM Paul Howarth  wrote:

> On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 17:52:00 -0700
> Kevin Fenzi  wrote:
>
> > On 8/27/19 4:27 AM, Miro Hrončok wrote:
> > > On 27. 08. 19 13:06, Paul Howarth wrote:
> > >> On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 20:55:18 -0400
> > >> Mohan Boddu  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi all,
> > >>>
> > >>> Today's an important day on the Fedora 31 schedule[1], with
> > >>> several significant cut-offs. First of all today is
> > >>> the Bodhi activation point [2]. That means that from now all
> > >>> Fedora 31 packages must be submitted to
> > >>> updates-testing and pass the relevant requirements[3] before they
> > >>> will be marked as 'stable' and moved to the
> > >>> fedora repository.
> > >>
> > >> I don't know if this is related but the Rawhide (f32) builds I've
> > >> done today (e.g. perl-MCE-1.846-1.fc32) don't seem to be going
> > >> through the gating process and into rawhide.
> > >>
> > >> $ koji -q list-tagged --latest f32-updates-candidate perl-MCE
> > >> perl-MCE-1.846-1.fc32 f32-updates-candidate
> > >> pghmcfc
> > >>
> > >> $ koji -q list-tagged --latest f32 perl-MCE
> > >> perl-MCE-1.845-1.fc32 f32
> > >> pghmcfc
> > >
> > > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/8138
> >
> > This was fixed earlier today, sorry for not circling back and noting
> > that here.
> >
> > I think everything should be processed that was stuck, if anyone sees
> > anything amiss, please let me know here, in email or via a releng or
> > infrastructure ticket.
>
> Is it stuck again? I built perl-Path-Class-0.37-14.fc32 over three
> hours ago and still no sign of an update or tagging into f32.
>
> Paul.
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Re: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

Neal, while you're at it, can you find out what is going on with the RSS
support.  There was quite a bit of discussion about it - but that has been
going on for years now and nothing seems to be happening.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:49 AM Neal Gompa  wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 2:31 PM Emmanuel Seyman 
> wrote:
> >
> > * Pierre-Yves Chibon [26/08/2019 09:44] :
> > >
> > > Our recommended solution is to find someone that would maintain the
> mailman3
> > > stack for us.
> >
> > Does this have to be mailman3 or can it be a different mailing list
> manager?
> >
>
> Mailman 3 with the HyperKitty stuff is highly preferred. I've offered
> to the CPE team to help with the software maintenance aspects as we
> continue to self-host as well. I intend to get in touch with the RH
> OSAS group to see if they could help us with our Mailman 3 stuff, as
> they've gotten pretty good at managing those themselves for a bunch of
> communities.
>
>
> --
> 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
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Re: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 1:40 AM Kevin Kofler  wrote:

> I wrote:
> >> But what about the die-hard NNTP users? You entirely ignored my post to
> >> which you are supposedly replying.
>
> Gerald B. Cox replied:
> > I believe there is a plugin for that with Discourse:
> > https://meta.discourse.org/t/sync-discourse-with-nntp/58602
>
> It would be great to get that deployed on Fedora Infrastructure.
>
> While I'm not convinced that it will work as well as for the mailing
> lists,
> it would definitely be better than nothing (i.e., the status quo).
>
>
Yeah, the issue I think with NNTP and with mailman, hyperkitty, etc. is
there appears to be a lack of innovation, development - and when it does
happen, it happens at a snails pace.  Maybe I'm wrong, but that certainly
appears to be the case from what I saw reading through feature requests,
etc.  Technologies like Discourse, etc. have a more active development
community and the popularity of older technogies is decreasing.  No, I
don't believe mail or usenet is going away anytime soon, but the feature
set is going to remain pretty static - with the new feature sets going to
things like Discourse.  I did search on knode and found that development
was discontinued - and there isn't really a plethora of nntp clients
available - as there was decades ago.  People generally have moved on.
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Re: Debates/back and forths

[Gerald B. Cox]

It's somewhat ironic that Discourse would solve this issue.  As I
previously mentioned, I also don't like having my inbox flooded with forum
threads that don't interest me.  The mailing list solution requires you
setup filters or continuously delete dozens of emails.  Discourse however
allows you to select what you want to read without needing to clean up
afterwards.  As I also pointed out RSS would make HyperKitty a somewhat
acceptable alternative - or as Kevin K. pointed out, you could also use
NNTP.  I personally would rather not, but maybe that would fit your use
case until a good solution could be implemented.

On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 4:42 AM Markus Larsson  wrote:

>
>
> On 28 August 2019 13:34:54 CEST, "Dan Čermák" <
> dan.cer...@cgc-instruments.com> wrote:
> >Hi Danni,
> >
> >Danny Lee  writes:
> >
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> I'm new to the devel list and fedora in general, but i was wondering
> >if
> >> these kind of back and forths between a few people is a frequent
> >> occurrence.  I came to Fedora to volunteer what little spare time I
> >have
> >> to help the Fedora project in some little ways. I don't feel that
> >should
> >> include wading through dozens of emailed back and forths between
> >> individuals who seem to have strong, immovable opinions, I just don't
> >
> >> have time for that.
> >
> >Welcome to the club of all the "silent" contributors!
> >
> >Usually I try to follow discussions if they appear relevant or
> >interesting to me, but once they "tip over", I mark that thread as
> >deleted and mercilessly nuke everything new that comes in.
> >Yeah, I might miss some important information, but it's unlikely tbh
> >once you are 20 replies deep into a thread.
> >On the other hand: I don't want to spend all my free time reading
> >emails.
> >
> >So, if you don't care about a specific topic: just ignore & delete it.
>
> This is how I think most do it. Just read the interesting parts.
>
> >
> >
> >Btw, this list is imho still pretty moderate, only the occasional
> >controversy causes a huge thread of replies (and people manage to stay
> >civilized and tend to bring in new arguments). There's other lists
> >(unnamed to protect the guilty) where the signal to noise ratio is
> >much,
> >much worse.
>
> The discourse debate and the fw debate are not the norm but the exception.
> We see a few of those from time to time. Most threads aren't like that
> though.
>
> >
> >>
> >> Is there any chance there is a moderated list or discussion group
> >about
> >> current project tasks and issues rather than debates about how to do
> >> things?  Or perhaps, a way to turn off certain threads or block
> >certain
> >> posters?
> >>
> >> Thanks for your time and info you can provide.
> >> ___
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Re: HyperKitty as a Discourse Replacement - Why still no RSS Support

[Gerald B. Cox]

Google John, Google is your friend... ;-)

https://wiki.list.org/DEV/ModernArchiving

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:32 PM John Harris  wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 6:27:49 PM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > Don't know what to tell you... it was a planned feature for Mailman 3,
> and
> > it is mentioned here:
> > https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues/51
>
> What leads you to believe this was a planned feature?
>
> --
> John M. Harris, Jr. 
> Splentity
> https://splentity.com/
>
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Re: HyperKitty as a Discourse Replacement - Why still no RSS Support

[Gerald B. Cox]

Don't know what to tell you... it was a planned feature for Mailman 3, and
it is mentioned here:
https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues/51

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:23 PM John Harris  wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 6:20:57 PM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > Well, there is an open ticket to do just that - apparently some people
> have
> > a bigger imagination.  ;-)
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:08 PM John Harris 
> wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:43:54 PM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:02:36 PM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > You could also just use NNTP, which wouldn't require you to have
> > >
> > > anything
> > >
> > > > > in  your mailbox. Then you can reply from the same client, as well
> :)
> > > >
> > > > Yeah, Kevin mentioned NNTP also... but as I mentioned to him I
> haven't
> > >
> > > used
> > >
> > > > a newsreader in years and not really wanting to invest time in
> another
> > > > tool... and as I mentioned to him, much the same as people here
> aren't
> > > > interested in using Discourse.  :-)
> > > >
> > > > But RSS appears to have been a planned feature to Mailman 3 and as I
> > > > mentioned there is a ticket pending with HyperKitty... not sure why
> it
> > > > is
> > > > languishing... it would definitely make HyperKitty more usable.
> > > > ___
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> > > > Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List
> > >
> > > > Archives:
> > >
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.or
> > > g
> > >
> > > I cannot possibly imagine how that would be implemented in HyperKitty
> in a
> > > way
> > > which would be useful in any way in feedreaders.
> > >
> > > --
> > > John M. Harris, Jr. 
> > > Splentity
> > > https://splentity.com/
> > >
> > > ___
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> > >
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.or
> > > g
>
> There's an open ticket, meaning it was requested. However, it's not
> something
> that is easy to implement, because RSS can't handle threading.
>
> --
> John M. Harris, Jr. 
> Splentity
> https://splentity.com/
>
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Re: HyperKitty as a Discourse Replacement - Why still no RSS Support

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:20 PM Gerald B. Cox  wrote:

> Well, there is an open ticket to do just that - apparently some people
> have a bigger imagination.  ;-)
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:08 PM John Harris  wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:43:54 PM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>> > > On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:02:36 PM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > You could also just use NNTP, which wouldn't require you to have
>> anything
>> > > in  your mailbox. Then you can reply from the same client, as well :)
>> > Yeah, Kevin mentioned NNTP also... but as I mentioned to him I haven't
>> used
>> > a newsreader in years and not really wanting to invest time in another
>> > tool... and as I mentioned to him, much the same as people here aren't
>> > interested in using Discourse.  :-)
>>
>> > But RSS appears to have been a planned feature to Mailman 3 and as I
>> > mentioned there is a ticket pending with HyperKitty... not sure why it
>> is
>> > languishing... it would definitely make HyperKitty more usable.
>> > ___
>> > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
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>> > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List
>> > Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List
>> > Archives:
>> >
>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
>>
>> I cannot possibly imagine how that would be implemented in HyperKitty in
>> a way
>> which would be useful in any way in feedreaders.
>>
>> --
>> John M. Harris, Jr. 
>> Splentity
>> https://splentity.com/
>>
>> ___
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>
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Re: HyperKitty as a Discourse Replacement - Why still no RSS Support

[Gerald B. Cox]

Well, there is an open ticket to do just that - apparently some people have
a bigger imagination.  ;-)

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:08 PM John Harris  wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:43:54 PM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:02:36 PM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You could also just use NNTP, which wouldn't require you to have
> anything
> > > in  your mailbox. Then you can reply from the same client, as well :)
> > Yeah, Kevin mentioned NNTP also... but as I mentioned to him I haven't
> used
> > a newsreader in years and not really wanting to invest time in another
> > tool... and as I mentioned to him, much the same as people here aren't
> > interested in using Discourse.  :-)
>
> > But RSS appears to have been a planned feature to Mailman 3 and as I
> > mentioned there is a ticket pending with HyperKitty... not sure why it is
> > languishing... it would definitely make HyperKitty more usable.
> > ___
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> > Archives:
> >
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
>
> I cannot possibly imagine how that would be implemented in HyperKitty in a
> way
> which would be useful in any way in feedreaders.
>
> --
> John M. Harris, Jr. 
> Splentity
> https://splentity.com/
>
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Re: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

Show what?   Sorry, I don't know what your talking about.  Have you ever
used RSS?  When you subscribe to a feed, you get the article... in this
case it would be the email in HyperKitty.  When you click on the title, it
opens up the sourced article on the web.  In this case it would be the
email within HyperKitty.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:00 PM John Harris  wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:58:11 PM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:36:58 PM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > >
> > > How exactly do your RSS feedreaders handle threading?
> >
> > Don't you mean how HyperKitty will handle it?  I won't be responding
> from my
> > Feedreader, I would be reading the contents from the feed, and if I was
> > interested in replying, I would click on the link and reply from
> > HyperKitty. ___
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> > Archives:
> >
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
>
> How do you expect your feedreader to show that?
>
> --
> John M. Harris, Jr. 
> Splentity
> https://splentity.com/
>
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Re: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

> On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:36:58 PM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> 
> How exactly do your RSS feedreaders handle threading?
Don't you mean how HyperKitty will handle it?  I won't be responding from my 
Feedreader, I would be reading the contents from the feed, and if I was 
interested in replying, I would click on the link and reply from HyperKitty.  
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Re: HyperKitty as a Discourse Replacement - Why still no RSS Support

[Gerald B. Cox]

> On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:02:36 PM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  
>  
> 
> You could also just use NNTP, which wouldn't require you to have anything in 
> your mailbox. Then you can reply from the same client, as well :)
Yeah, Kevin mentioned NNTP also... but as I mentioned to him I haven't used a 
newsreader in years and not really wanting to invest time in another tool... 
and as I mentioned to him, much the same as people here aren't interested in 
using Discourse.  :-)

But RSS appears to have been a planned feature to Mailman 3 and as I mentioned 
there is a ticket pending with HyperKitty... not sure why it is languishing... 
it would definitely make HyperKitty more usable.
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Re: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

> On 8/27/19 11:00 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> 
> Would your concerns be addressed if tjere was a gateway from this email 
> list to Discord? Would something simple that just stores each email in a 
> separate Discord item work, and if not, why?
> 
> BTW, is there a gateway of this sort already somewhere?

I'm not aware of a gateway... if there is one, that could be helpful.  
Additionally, I was looking at Hyperkitty and submitted another topic about RSS 
feeds.  That would be very helpful.
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Re: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

Hey Kevin:

> Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> 
> If the plan is to replace mailing lists with something that cannot even 
> provide the same functionality, that is unreasonable and isn't going to 
> happen.
> 
> 
> But you are assuming that we actually WANT to migrate, which is NOT the 
> case.
> 

LOL, I've noticed!  ;-)
> 


> But what about the die-hard NNTP users? You entirely ignored my post to 
> which you are supposedly replying.
> 
I believe there is a plugin for that with Discourse:
https://meta.discourse.org/t/sync-discourse-with-nntp/58602


> 
> Then use either NNTP through Gmane (news.gmane.org, default port 119, 
> STARTTLS supported; and the trick to be able to post without getting treated 
> as spam is to subscribe to the mailing list, but disable mail delivery), or 
> HyperKitty (web interface, should just work).
> 
> Since you like web interfaces, why does HyperKitty not fulfill your needs?
> 
> Kevin Kofler


I was thinking about HyperKitty and if it had RSS support that would make it 
workable.  I already use RSS quite a bit and having the feed come through that 
and to be able to select items through there and launch into HyperKitty would 
be very workable - and apparently RSS support for HyperKitty / Mailman 3 has 
been in the works for years now, but AFAIK not much has happened with it.  I 
submitted another post regarding that.  Regarding NNTP I've haven't used 
newsreaders in years and to be honest dealing with yet another tool isn't 
something I would want to do... probably the same as people here not wanting to 
use Discourse.  
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HyperKitty as a Discourse Replacement - Why still no RSS Support

[Gerald B. Cox]

People keep mentioning HyperKitty as an alternative to Discourse.  While I 
believe Discourse has more functionality, one thing that would make HyperKitty 
a somewhat acceptable alternative would be the addition of RSS support.  So I 
started to investigate and found that several tickets were opened 3 years ago.  
As mentioned in the tickets many folks found that this would be useful and it 
still isn't implemented.  In fact, the idea of mailman supporting RSS has been 
talked about years before that.  

Seems to me that if folks are so dead set on using mailman and hyperkitty we 
could at a minimum get someone to prioritize getting RSS support added so 
people who didn't want their mailbox flooded from mailing lists could use a 
combination of RSS and Hyperkitty.

And yes, Discourse has RSS support.
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Re: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

Yeah, I completely agree - but that wasn't my intention to try to
convince.  I would like additional topics that mirror those in the mailing
lists setup on discourse.  That way people can use whichever they want.
The one that people prefer will win.  Simple as that.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 12:45 PM Dan Book  wrote:

> This conversation is pretty pointless. You are never going to convince
> other people to like Discourse more than mailing lists, and they are never
> going to convince you the other direction.
>
> -Dan
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:35 AM Gerald B. Cox  wrote:
>
>> Here is an interesting discussion on "threaded discussions":
>> https://meta.discourse.org/t/threaded-discussion-is-ultimately-too-complex-to-survive-on-the-public-internet/63172
>>
>> I personally don't like them.  As the threads increase the discussion
>> becomes hard to follow...
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 12:20 PM Louis Lagendijk 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 2019-08-27 at 12:00 -0300, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>>>
>>> Why is it when I say that I don't want to clutter up my email with mail
>>> from mailing lists I'm told it's a misconfiguration.  It's not a
>>> misconfiguration.  I don't want the forum email cluttering up my mail - and
>>> I don't want to use an NNTP gateway, I want to use Discourse.  Why is that
>>> so hard to understand?
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:47 AM John Harris 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 7:29:28 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>>> >  Using mail, I have to access the archives to read the full thread.
>>>
>>> This is just due to your configuration. You could easily either save the
>>> mailing list to your mailbox, or use an NNTP gateway.
>>>
>>> Different people have different work flows, you like to go to Discourse, 
>>> others prefer mail/nntp. For a lot of people (including myself) the lack of 
>>> threading is a show stopper for their workflow.
>>>
>>>
>>> The mail interface in Discourse is...lacking a lot of features for a lot of 
>>> people. Your comment "why is that so hard to understand" applies both 
>>> ways
>>>
>>> /Louis
>>>
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Re: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

Here is an interesting discussion on "threaded discussions":
https://meta.discourse.org/t/threaded-discussion-is-ultimately-too-complex-to-survive-on-the-public-internet/63172

I personally don't like them.  As the threads increase the discussion
becomes hard to follow...

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 12:20 PM Louis Lagendijk  wrote:

> On Tue, 2019-08-27 at 12:00 -0300, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>
> Why is it when I say that I don't want to clutter up my email with mail
> from mailing lists I'm told it's a misconfiguration.  It's not a
> misconfiguration.  I don't want the forum email cluttering up my mail - and
> I don't want to use an NNTP gateway, I want to use Discourse.  Why is that
> so hard to understand?
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:47 AM John Harris  wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 7:29:28 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> >  Using mail, I have to access the archives to read the full thread.
>
> This is just due to your configuration. You could easily either save the
> mailing list to your mailbox, or use an NNTP gateway.
>
> Different people have different work flows, you like to go to Discourse, 
> others prefer mail/nntp. For a lot of people (including myself) the lack of 
> threading is a show stopper for their workflow.
>
>
> The mail interface in Discourse is...lacking a lot of features for a lot of 
> people. Your comment "why is that so hard to understand" applies both ways
>
> /Louis
>
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Re: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

I never said they were.  What I said was expecting and requiring Discourse
to 100% replicate everything a mailing list does isn't going to happen and
shouldn't be a requirement.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:55 AM John Harris  wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 7:29:28 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > I understand there isn't going to be 100% feature parity, but it should
> be
> > good enough - and if it isn't we should be working with the Discourse
> > people to improve it rather than just using it as an excuse to not moving
> > forward.
>
> I want to clarify something here. Forums are nothing new. Neither is
> receiving
> mail from forums, and honestly neither is replying to a forum post by
> email.
> Forums are not the "evolution" of email, they're just a different type of
> software.
>
> --
> John M. Harris, Jr. 
> Splentity
> https://splentity.com/
>
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Re: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

Why is it when I say that I don't want to clutter up my email with mail
from mailing lists I'm told it's a misconfiguration.  It's not a
misconfiguration.  I don't want the forum email cluttering up my mail - and
I don't want to use an NNTP gateway, I want to use Discourse.  Why is that
so hard to understand?

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:47 AM John Harris  wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 7:29:28 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> >  Using mail, I have to access the archives to read the full thread.
>
> This is just due to your configuration. You could easily either save the
> mailing list to your mailbox, or use an NNTP gateway.
>
> --
> John M. Harris, Jr. 
> Splentity
> https://splentity.com/
>
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Re: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

Thanks for the offer, but no thanks.  My point is I don't like using email
for forum discussions.  The only reason I'm using it here is that I'm being
forced to because "Development Discussions", "KDE Discussions" and
"Packaging Discussions" aren't available on the Discourse Fedora instance.
As I mentioned before, I don't like the idea of forum discussions clogging
up my email.  I like accessing Fedora Discussions on my phone using the
Discourse client.  It's much easier to read threads for me and understand
prior elements of the discussion on Discourse.  Using mail, I have to
access the archives to read the full thread.

Seems to me to be a bit weird that Fedora has some discussions on Discourse
but refuses to allow other discussions and mandate those be done via a
mailing list - especially when Discourse allows a mailing list option.

I understand there isn't going to be 100% feature parity, but it should be
good enough - and if it isn't we should be working with the Discourse
people to improve it rather than just using it as an excuse to not moving
forward.



On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:32 AM John Harris  wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:23:48 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > I read all the comments and my response is this...
> > First of all, there is no limit to the amount of emails that discourse
> will
> > send out.  That is a site parameter, and whomever supports it for Fedora
> > needs to change it:
> >
> >
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/daily-limits-for-outgoing-mails-per-user/41458
> >
> > If the requirement is that discourse completely replicate 100% the
> > functionality of mailing lists, that is unreasonable and isn't going to
> > happen.  As I mentioned earlier there are several groups working on this
> or
> > have done migration from mailing lists to discourse:
> >
> >
> https://discourse-mediawiki.wmflabs.org/t/lets-try-to-emulate-a-mailing-list
> > /1003
> >
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-mailing-lists-majordomo-or-otherw
> > ise/65769
> >
> > You can find more examples with a web search.
> >
> > A key comment was:  "Our site is still quite busy, although some people
> are
> > still grumbling about the change, 8 months later. The die-hard email
> users
> > are still able to participate, which came as a bit of a pleasant shock to
> > them. I think they were fully expecting that once we moved to a modern
> > platform, they’d be forced to use a web interface."
> >
> > Personally, I don't like my mailbox filled up with mailing list postings.
> > I prefer to uses the discourse rss interface to scan for topics and then
> go
> > directly to it to respond.  Instead of writing a "me too" email, I can
> > simply click a like button to show I'm in agreement.  It's easier to see
> > the full context of a thread.  With the current situation I have to go
> scan
> > the archives. I like to use the mobile app to read and reply from my
> > phone.  For every item mentioned about discourse doesn't do A, B, C with
> > mailing lists I can counter with an item that email lists cannot do.  The
> > fact is that for the vast majority of people, the discourse mailing list
> > functionality is good enough - and as time goes on it continues to
> improve
> > - but again, it's not reasonable to expect or demand 100%.  IMO the pros
> > outweigh the cons.
> >
> > The top of this email thread is:  No longer supporting mailing lists
> > and my understanding is that Fedora is searching for people to take over
> > support.  Seems to me that is a good time to consider switching to
> > discourse.  From reading experiences of people who did the migration,
> it's
> > easier to support.
>
> If you would like, I could assist you in setting up your email client, and
> in
> filtering your mailing lists into folders. You can also access your email
> on
> your phone, if you wish to do so.
>
> Other than things like emoji responses, I can tell you how to do just
> about
> anything that you can on Discourse using Email.
>
> It's not that one is modern and the other is not.
>
> --
> John M. Harris, Jr. 
> Splentity
> https://splentity.com/
>
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Re: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

I would assume you would just use mailing list mode and address
additional recipients.  To receive an expert reply I would suggest you ask
the question here:

https://meta.discourse.org/c/support

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:54 AM Julen Landa Alustiza <
jla...@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> I'm curious about discourse's options here...
>
> Is quite common on our workflows to have mailing threads that targets a
> couple of fedora mailing list, another outside mailing list and some third
> party individuals when we discuss about an specific feature.
>
> The xen criteria one for example, it had been cross mailing test@, devel@,
> xen's third party mailing list and some amazon folks with direct CCs.
>
> Is this possible with discourse?
> Julen Landa Alustiza 
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Re: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

I read all the comments and my response is this...
First of all, there is no limit to the amount of emails that discourse will
send out.  That is a site parameter, and whomever supports it for Fedora
needs to change it:

https://meta.discourse.org/t/daily-limits-for-outgoing-mails-per-user/41458

If the requirement is that discourse completely replicate 100% the
functionality of mailing lists, that is unreasonable and isn't going to
happen.  As I mentioned earlier there are several groups working on this or
have done migration from mailing lists to discourse:

https://discourse-mediawiki.wmflabs.org/t/lets-try-to-emulate-a-mailing-list/1003
https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-mailing-lists-majordomo-or-otherwise/65769

You can find more examples with a web search.

A key comment was:  "Our site is still quite busy, although some people are
still grumbling about the change, 8 months later. The die-hard email users
are still able to participate, which came as a bit of a pleasant shock to
them. I think they were fully expecting that once we moved to a modern
platform, they’d be forced to use a web interface."

Personally, I don't like my mailbox filled up with mailing list postings.
I prefer to uses the discourse rss interface to scan for topics and then go
directly to it to respond.  Instead of writing a "me too" email, I can
simply click a like button to show I'm in agreement.  It's easier to see
the full context of a thread.  With the current situation I have to go scan
the archives. I like to use the mobile app to read and reply from my
phone.  For every item mentioned about discourse doesn't do A, B, C with
mailing lists I can counter with an item that email lists cannot do.  The
fact is that for the vast majority of people, the discourse mailing list
functionality is good enough - and as time goes on it continues to improve
- but again, it's not reasonable to expect or demand 100%.  IMO the pros
outweigh the cons.

The top of this email thread is:  No longer supporting mailing lists
and my understanding is that Fedora is searching for people to take over
support.  Seems to me that is a good time to consider switching to
discourse.  From reading experiences of people who did the migration, it's
easier to support.
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Re: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

> On 26 August 2019 16:04:12 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox"  
> The only reason to bring it up when replying to me is that you think it 
> applies here. So
> while you explicitly did not mention me there's not very many other ways it 
> can be
> interpreted. 
> 
> So the best way is to sneak it in?
> That is exactly how one introduces new services if one wants them to be 
> impossible to back
> away from. This will of course split the community in a way that will lead to 
> flame war. I
> think that should be avoided.
> 
> It's much better to make a dummy thread long enough so that those who wants 
> can test
> the platform before this list is fragmented.
> 
Sounds to me like you're projecting.  Relax.  No one is talking about 
"sneaking" or "flame wars" except you.   Allowing people to try it out in a 
real environment will allow them to vote with their participation.  
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Re: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

> On 26 August 2019 14:27:53 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox"  
> Was it a lengthy conversation where you needed context from earlier posts?
> Was is easily at hand right in your email client?
> 
> 
> That's exactly my point. The advantages listed are mere stated opinions. 
> Except
> editing and community moderation which are actual features.
> 
> 
> Writing this off as me being hostile to change is not only wrong but also 
> rather snarky.
> Did you intend that?
> 
> Every time discourse is brought up it seems that anyone asking what will be 
> better over
> maillinglists are accused of being hostile to change, this time is not 
> different.
> 

I didn't mention you, I simply stated that there are people who are hostile and 
resistant to change.  That is a fact... you only need do a simple google search 
every time there is a change and some people always complain.  In fact, the 
recent changes to Firefox extensions come to mind.  You had people angrily say 
they would ditch Fx, etc. etc. etc.  Such tactics are IMO not constructive.

The best way to solve this is to create a duplicate discussion group on 
Discourse for Development and monitor it's use.  The only way people are going 
to be able to decide if it's good for them or not is to try it.  
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Re: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

> It seems that the only thing in that link that has merit in regards to this 
> list is that
> discourse allow editing of messages that has been sent.
> 
> As for the other things I disagree with pretty much everything. I don't think 
> email is
> too hard to use, I don't think large mailinglists are a problem, I don't see 
> any
> spam here, I don't think linking to things in emails is hard etc.
> 
> Discourse has many uses but it pushes people toward a single interface where 
> as
> mailinglists let's people be much more free to choose their own interfaces.
> And yes, discourse can email me when things happen, the formatting of mail 
> does make
> following the conversation much harder than a simple maillinglist.
> 
> I also thought this was discussed earlier this year and that the conclusion 
> was that
> discourse was a bad fit.
> 

I received an email from Fedora Discourse earlier this week and it looked fine. 
 I was able to reply directly or press a button which opened up the web 
interface.  Are there differences that I didn't notice?  Probably... would most 
people notice them... probably not.  

As far as you not considering the other advantages listed as meaningful, that's 
your opinion and you're welcome to it.  I simply disagree.  

As far as discourse being a bad fit, I also disagree.  Whenever change happens 
some people are always resistant... but to make progress change is required and 
legacy items are sometimes impacted some examples are KDE 3 to 4 to 5 - 
GNOME 2.3 to 3... Python 2.7 to 3... the list goes on.

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Re: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

If you disagree with something that is stated, you need to in detail
explain why, not just claim it is marketing and therefore invalid.

On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 8:30 AM Markus Larsson  wrote:

>
>
> On 26 August 2019 13:25:52 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox"  wrote:
> >Here you go...
> >https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email-mailing-lists/54298
>
> Yes, I'm aware of their marketing. What I was after was data from someone
> that doesn't have a horse in the race.
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RE: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

Here you go...
https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email-mailing-lists/54298
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RE: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

> On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 7:32:06 AM MST you wrote:
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> RE: No longer supporting mailing lists:
> This project literally cannot function without mailing lists. We do not 
> currently have a viable alternative. See all of the issues we've had trying 
> to 
> work with Mailing List mode on Discourse. It is not a complete feature, so we 
> (at least I) cannot recommend switching to it at this time.

What issues are you referring to?  I don't believe it is reasonable to believe 
everything would work exactly the same with Discourse - but close enough should 
be sufficient.  There are also myriad advantages to Discourse.  Others are also 
looking at this:  
https://discourse-mediawiki.wmflabs.org/t/lets-try-to-emulate-a-mailing-list/1003
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Re: Error with fedpkg update

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 1:49 PM Adam Williamson 
wrote:

>
> >
> > bodhi is not yet enabled for fedora 31.
> >
> > According to the schedule, that's supposed to happen on 2019-08-29:
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/31/Schedule
>
> And just to be clear - that means you don't *need* to create an update.
> Your build just gets tagged into f31 automatically.
>
>
I'm a bit confused.  The master build went to F32 (rawhide).  So I then
built for F31, F30 and F29.  Now F32 build is showing a status of "Stable"
in bodhi, F29 and F30 are showing "testing".  So you're saying that
automagically F31 will appear in bodhi as "stable"?
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Error with fedpkg update

[Gerald B. Cox]

I've been trying to submit an update to testing for several days now and it
keeps failing
with the following message:

Could not execute update: Could not generate update request: Cannot find
release associated with build: copyq-3.9.1-1.fc31, tags: ['f31']
A copy of the filled in template is saved as bodhi.template.last

The fedpkg build was successful, and I see it in koj.

Does anyone have an idea to what the problem is?

Thanks!
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Re: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 6:51 AM Florian Weimer  wrote:

>
> Have you ever encountered the daily message limit?  It seems to be quite
> low, at 100.  That alone seems to make mailing list mode useless.
>
>
The daily message limit is a site controlled parameter.  It can be changed
by the
administrator.
https://meta.discourse.org/t/daily-limits-for-outgoing-mails-per-user/41458
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Re: Fedora 32 System-Wide Change proposal: x86-64 micro-architecture update

[Gerald B. Cox]

>...I think this should be retracted before it ends up being a
> phoronix article making the project look bad.

I 100% agree... but too late:  
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item=Fedora-31-Possible-AVX2-Require
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Re: IBM buying RedHat

[Gerald B. Cox]

This was pretty much inevitable.  Out of companies with deep enough pockets - 
IBM is a good outcome.  In the end, it will be good for both companies.  It 
isn't helpful to have a negative attitude about it.  “Change is the law of life 
and those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future" 
- or as my boss is so fond of saying:  The train is leaving the station, get on 
board or get left behind.  This is a done deal.
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 3:05 AM Stephen J. Turnbull 
wrote:

> Required disclosure: Mailman dev, and my sympathies are with the list
> advocates for this channel both for that reason, and for more
> objective ones.  I don't really argue against a move to Discourse
> here, but I do know a bit about the problem space, and I'd like to
> discuss *some* aspects here.  I expect it's clear which I prefer, but
> there are a lot of arguments "for" that I don't deal with.
>
> Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski writes:
> >>>>> Gerald B. Cox writes:
>
>  > > Regardless, as I mentioned above, if they have a bug, then it
>  > > should be reported for them to address.
>  >
>  > I wouldn't call it a bug, just bad UX for a minority(?) target
>  > audience.
>
> I'm pretty sure the Discourse developers would concede that bad UX for
> email users is undesirable.  I'm *not* sure they would concede that
> it's bad UX.  We know how to render HTML to plain text, to RTF, and so
> on; Discourse deliberately chose not to do so, but rather chose a
> format of their own or perhaps some existing format (this is the first
> I've heard of BBcode, so I can't judge).
>
> Thus, I doubt that reporting an issue against Discourse's email
> functionality would get action any time soon from the developers, and
> might get a lot of pushback.
>

Thanks very much for your detailed reply.  You summed it up pretty well.
As far as
the mailing list issue for some email clients I did find this over on the
Discourse support forum:

https://meta.discourse.org/t/plaintext-and-or-raw-emails-for-mailing-list-mode/74267

Again, I'm far from being an email expert... I'm just a user of it - but
people who do have
the knowledge might want to take a look and see if this discussion reflects
some of their concerns
and possibly participate.  I don't know if the situation could or could not
be improved... but it doesn't
hurt to ask.
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 8:31 AM Chris Adams  wrote:

> Once upon a time, R P Herrold  said:
> > This seems very tone deaf and lacking in introspection, Matt
> >
> > perhaps by reading the subject line you chose to start this
> > thread with
>
> Matt didn't choose that - that subject was set by Gerald B. Cox.
>
> As I previously mentioned with all the top-posting, excerpts and hyperbole
interjected by others people
get lost and run with mis-quotes - perhaps Discourse could help with that.
;-)

Software is a tool for me.  I don't get emotionally attached to it - as
some people apparently are.  It's a bit telling that
many people seem to be afraid that Discourse will be a success.
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 7:43 AM Nicolas Mailhot 
wrote:

> Le vendredi 19 octobre 2018 à 07:28 -0700, Gerald B. Cox a écrit :
> > And if this conversation were in Discourse, we could simply move it to
> > a new topic ;-)
>
> And if it where is discourse I would’t participate in it.
>
> Basically, as others said, not interested in shiny tech that has no
> notion of interop, has a single implementation, and a shelf life of a
> couple years.
>
> There's a reason every single web site out there quietly drops the shiny
> things bit to fall back on email and sms as soon as it manipulates
> anything $$$ related. email and sms are an ugly but reliable and
> standard way to reach anyone. The native web forums are just ephemeral
> eye-cather mutually incompatible things designed make you read ads (as
> Mairin explained better than me).
>
> Now, it it were packaged in Fedora, and deployed on Fedora infra,
> without any magic call to a third party website, that would be something
> else. Wouldn't change the probability upstream would give up on it as
> soon as it was not shiny and cool anymore, but at least I and Fedora
> would not totally depend on them for our data.
>

You really should try it, you might like it.  BTW, there are no ads in the
Fedora Discourse instance, so
not sure what you are talking about there.  As far as email is concerned
the trends are clear... just do a
web search.
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 7:41 AM Neal Gompa  wrote:

>
>
> I'm not talking about you in the Fedora sense. I'm talking about
> Gerald and his saying "we must move everything to Discourse".
>

Oh really... I said that... perhaps you should take 5 seconds and read the
subject of the thread.

As far as Hyperkitty is concerned you need to take a few minutes and
re-read Matt's response.

But again, Hyperkitty is not the point of this thread.
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

And if this conversation were in Discourse, we could simply move it to a
new topic ;-)

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 7:21 AM Nicolas Mailhot 
wrote:

> Le vendredi 19 octobre 2018 à 14:55 +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé a écrit :
> >
> > I don't know why Red Hat's mailman impl isn't upgraded, but it is
> > not blocked by lack of Python 3 on RHEL.
> >
> > Red Hat Software Collections have been providing Python 3.x versions
> > that run on RHEL since ~2013. They exist as add-on yum repos,
>
> Well that's another thing 200% broken in the current Fedora RHEL
> universe (and I speak both with my Fedora contributor hat, and as
> someone who was tasked with procuring RHEL systems in a fortune xxx
> company not so long ago).
>
> The whole "but it's in an optional RHEL repo" just kills *any* form
> RHEL/Fedora symbiosis.
>
> No one but RH knows what ends up in what optional repo for what reason,
> they're ignored by Centos, it's completely impossible to push anything a
> tad complex from Fedora to EPEL because it will depend on things RH
> stashed away in an optional repo centos does not rebuild, and you're
> forbidden to put a copy in EPEL because it may collide with the optional
> repos, and so on.
>
> That's how we end up with the hilarious situation where the Go EPEL6
> stack is both newer and more complete than the Go EPEL7 stack because RH
> vacuumed some Go packages in an optional EL7 repo and now it's
> impossible to do anything Go-related in EPEL7.
>
> I'm sure the RH marketoïds *love* the optional repos, it's segmentation
> market 101, but concretely? They're the kiss of death for anything in
> Fedora that has enterprise applications, because almost no one is going
> to bother contributing things in Fedora, that he needs enterprise-side,
> if the result has zero chance of ending up in EPEL.
>
> The end result is that no one but RH contributes to EL optional repos,
> and no one who is working on RH EL7 repos has the slightest interest in
> integrating with Fedora since they do not see any stream of EPEL Fedora
> contributions.
>
> Or, you end up deploying enterprise systems with your own private
> rebuild of Fedora packages for EL, and you know what? At this point the
> bean counters just ask “why are we paying $$$ to RH again, I see you
> spend your time rebuilding Fedora packages, can't you use Debian if the
> EL part of RHEL is useless?”
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Nicolas Mailhot
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 6:45 AM Neal Gompa  wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 9:16 AM Gerald B. Cox  wrote:
> >
> > Again, I believe some are trying to do an apples to apples comparison
> with Discourse and mailing list technologies.  Discourse was build from the
> ground up with the goal of fostering communication and collaboration.
> Hyperkitty is a bolt on HTML to mailing list archives.  It's good for what
> it is, but it isn't Discourse - and usage numbers tend to bear that out.
> >
>
> That's an unfair characterization. HyperKitty was designed from the
> ground up with that goal in mind too. The _sole_ difference is the
> backend approach. Discourse uses a database system while HyperKitty
> uses a mail list engine.
>
> if you think the "sole" difference between HyperKitty and Discourse is the
backend approach
you're not looking very hard.  It's quite apparent just by looking at it.
If yperKitty's design goals
are the exact same as Discourse they hid it pretty well in their online
documentation.


> You know why the usage numbers bear that out? Because the upgrade to
> HyperKitty was mishandled and delayed over and over. We were screwed
> over by the fact that our infrastructure doesn't run on Fedora, so
> that made it harder to get it working. The initial deployment was very
> slow and unoptimized. Bugs in the UI remained unfixed in Fedora's
> installation even though upstream fixed them. I would not be surprised
> if upstream ignores us because we don't seem to be upgrading.
>

I don't agree with that being the reason - I believe it is the design
approach and goals - but
even if that were true - that ship has sailed.


>
> The development process for HyperKitty basically stalled out because
> migrations were impossible from Mailman 2 to Mailman 3 for a *very*
> long time. Fedora somehow did it, and that seemed to have not gone
> back upstream, so until *very recently*, upstream did not recommend
> doing mm2 to mm3 upgrades.
>

This thread isn't about making excuses for Hyperkitty - it's about
Discourse.
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Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 4:26 AM Matthew Miller 
wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 03:53:06AM -, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> > But we can file bugs against Discourse and they will be magically and
> > quickly fixed to our satisfaction, yes?
>
> Of course not. However: development is very active.
> https://github.com/discourse/discourse/commits/master
>
>
> > I'm concerned that those proposing Discourse seem to not have used
> > Hyperkitty at length.
>
> As you know, I was very excited about HyperKitty. I *did* try it very
> seriously at first, but not at length, because it quickly became apparent
> that it wasn't really up to the task of being my primary interface to
> email.
> I just couldn't use it for day-to-day communication. Not necessarily any
> single thing, but lots and lots of fundamentals. How do I get a list of new
> threads? How do I get a list of threads I've read but which have new
> responses, and ideally show only the new responses? How can I mute a thread
> I don't want to be alerted on? How do I get to the next thread from the
> *bottom* of a thread I just read? How can I search... usefully at all? My
> point isn't to rag on HyperKitty, but I could definitely go on.
>
> I tried for a while to file suggestions and bug reports, but especially
> after the extra two years it took to even get deployed, it was *very* clear
> there were no resources for ongoing development from Red Hat, no
> significant
> non-RH Fedora development, and no meaningful outside development either.
> Basic things like https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues/64 didn't
> even get *responses*. So, I stuck with my previous email client setup.
>
> And the thing is, it's *not just me*. Take a look at
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/
> right now. Every single thread shows a "meh" face and "+0/-0". It says
>
>Most popular discussions
>No vote has been cast this month (yet).
>
> It is the 19th of the month. Not a single vote on our most busy mailing
> list. The same is true for every other list I looked at. People just aren't
> using this.
>
> I *really* think HyperKitty has potential. But we can't run on potential.
> Discourse is a pure open source project that is *really catching on and
> successful*. It's not perfect either, of course, but we're way better off
> aligning with something with momentum.
>
>
Completely agree - well stated.  It's quite obvious when using both tools
which lends itself
to better conversation and collaboration.  I realize people are resistant
to change - but once
they start to use and learn about the new features and functionality - most
people come around.
Sometimes people need a nudge to change and adapt - myself included.  It's
just human nature -
but as I get older, I try to keep an open mind and be adaptable.
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

Again, I believe some are trying to do an apples to apples comparison with
Discourse and mailing list technologies.  Discourse was build from the
ground up with the goal of fostering communication and collaboration.
Hyperkitty is a bolt on HTML to mailing list archives.  It's good for what
it is, but it isn't Discourse - and usage numbers tend to bear that out.

The fact is that email usage is declining.  People are moving away from it
and prefer to use other platforms for collaboration.  As with many
things... when something new comes out, there are a group of people who
push back and want things to stay as they are - history has proven time and
time again, that change is inevitable.  If something new is the better
solution, as people become aware of it and use it - it will become the go
to solution.  The examples are endless and span multiple disciplines.

Fedora has a long history of supporting new and innovative solutions and
toolsets.  That is what helps differentiate us as a distribution.  We need
a tool that will encourage more participation.  I believe Discourse will
help with this - people will discover new and more efficient ways to do
their work and the sun will rise the next day.
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 1:15 PM Randy Barlow 
wrote:

> On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 13:14 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > Discourse is *definitely* not a smooth, drop-in mailing list
> > replacement
> > like Hyperkitty is.
>
> I'm curious what is insufficient about Hyperkitty that Discourse does
> well at. Wasn't Hyperkitty supposed to give people the forum
> experience? I admit I haven't used it that much for reading or posting
> (though I do use it for archive links sometimes and it seems fine for
> that), since I really like the e-mail interface, so I am not familiar
> with how nice or un-nice it is to use.
>
>
Here is a link to discourse features:
https://www.discourse.org/features

I view hyperkitty as just a web interface for mailing lists - not much more
than that.
Discourse provides a more complete conversation / collaboration
environment.  If you
take a look at the features page, you'll see it offers some nice
capabilities.

I wouldn't expect it to be a "drop-in" mailing list replacement.  Yes, it
allows some
backward compatibility by providing "mailing-list mode" - but you're going
to get a richer
experience if you use native interfaces.
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:40 PM Kevin Fenzi  wrote:

> On 10/18/18 6:31 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>
> > Actually, I think that just creating a new discourse instance for
> > discussions keeping the mailing
> > lists around would be a good solution.  You wouldn't have to worry about
> > registration.  People who wanted
> > to use it or try it out could do that themselves - and you wouldn't have
> to
> > be concerned about moving archives,
> > etc.  You could then just let normal attrition handle it.
>
> Sure, but it might be not a great experience if not enough people watch
> both or move to discourse. ie, people asking questions there or starting
> discussions and no one answering them.
>
> So, if people want to discuss in discourse, great, but I don't think we
> should create a vast sea of empty topics until/unless people are needing
> them.
>
> Yeah, it's kind of a chicken / egg situation - you're not going to know
until you
throw something out there and let people give it a whirl and determine how
it
works for them in a real world situation - not some lab mockup.
The Foreman results that Matt posted earlier appeared to indicate it
would be worthwhile to try.
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:28 PM  wrote:

> > On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:40 AM Simo Sorce  wrote:
>
> > You need to read the entire thread in context, including subsequent
> > responses.  I realize that can be difficult on a mailing list, with
> > all the top-posting, conversation snippets, etc.
>
> We have been doing that.  The features touted for Discourse are automatic
> and natural for email lists, and said to be poorly mimicked in Discourse.
>
> You're missing the point of this thread - it's about the capabilities of a
tool to foster discussion
and communication between mulitiple people - it's not about cloning email
software.
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:24 PM Tomasz Torcz  wrote:

>
> > You like gmail […]
>
>   Using GMail (both legacy and Inbox) as a representation of email
> workflow and ergonomy is not fair.  Gmail as a client is abysmal.
> No threading, no coloring of different level of citation, no integrated
> GPG support, no comfortable editor.
>   Honest comparison would be between Discourse and Mutt+procmail, or
> Gnus.
>   If one insist on using GMail as a server (instead of running one),
> I believe there's a IMAP access method which should work with mutt.
>

I use gmail... I don't like it... it's a software tool... there is no
emotional attachment.  That said,
the point of this thread isn't gmail.
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:03 PM Simo Sorce  wrote:

> On Thu, 2018-10-18 at 11:51 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:40 AM Simo Sorce  wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 11:02 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM Samuel Sieb 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On 10/17/18 8:52 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > > > > > Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me.
> > > > >
> > > > > That's because gmail only shows the HTML part.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ah... so it's a client issue.  Good to know.
> > >
> > > No it is a service issue that just happen not to affect *your* client
> > > of choice. There is a big difference.
> > >
> > > Simo.
> > >
> >
> > You need to read the entire thread in context, including subsequent
> > responses.  I realize that can be difficult on a mailing list, with
> > all the top-posting, conversation snippets, etc.
>
> I did read the thread, and there is no difficulty at all to read a
> thread, given my client can do threading just fine, the comment stands.
>
> Well, maybe you need to read it again - because you're missing the point.
>
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:40 AM Simo Sorce  wrote:

> On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 11:02 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM Samuel Sieb  wrote:
> >
> > > On 10/17/18 8:52 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > > > Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me.
> > >
> > > That's because gmail only shows the HTML part.
> > >
> >
> > Ah... so it's a client issue.  Good to know.
>
> No it is a service issue that just happen not to affect *your* client
> of choice. There is a big difference.
>
> Simo.
>

You need to read the entire thread in context, including subsequent
responses.  I realize that can be difficult on a mailing list, with
all the top-posting, conversation snippets, etc.
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 5:33 AM Matthew Miller 
wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 01:39:30PM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
> > I cannot *ever* recommend, in good conscious, moving to Discourse for
> > Fedora development discussions.
> >
> > However, I think it's fantastic for user support, as those are much
> > more context free, incidental, and so on. I've wished for a long time
>
> Yeah, I'm not suggesting moving all development discussion there, although
> I think there are people who *do* want to do development discussion that
> way, and I wouldn't want to _block_ that.
>

Actually, I think that just creating a new discourse instance for
discussions keeping the mailing
lists around would be a good solution.  You wouldn't have to worry about
registration.  People who wanted
to use it or try it out could do that themselves - and you wouldn't have to
be concerned about moving archives,
etc.  You could then just let normal attrition handle it.
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 16:35 Anderson, Charles R  wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 03:52:17PM -0300, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > I'm not an email expert by any means.  What I said was that it works
> > perfectly fine for me. If people have an issue with it they should file a
> > bug or enhancement request with the discourse project. That way the issue
> > could be addressed and everyone could benefit.
>
> Okay, so you care only for your own needs?  Everyone else is on their
> own?
>
> You are advocating for a change to how Fedora communicates, while
> dismissing people's concerns about that change, and then putting the
> onus on those same people to help improve the third-party cloud hosted
> product so the change can work for them.  How about we simply leave
> things the way they are instead?  It has worked fine for 15+ years.
>

Again... I am not an email expert nor am I experiencing the issue.  If you
are having the issue you are best capable to report it.

As far as not being concerned... I wouldn't be engaging in a conversation
if I weren't.

Things change... Technology advances...

>
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 15:31 Anderson, Charles R  wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 11:02:58AM -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM Samuel Sieb  wrote:
> >
> > > On 10/17/18 8:52 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > > > Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me.
> > >
> > > That's because gmail only shows the HTML part.
> > >
> >
> > Ah... so it's a client issue.  Good to know.
>
> No.  You are either completely misunderstanding the issue, or are
> arrogantly choosing to ignore it.  Your tone comes across as the
> latter, but I apologize if I misconstrue your intent.
>
> Let me try to explain again.  Different people prefer different
> clients.  Some people prefer text-only clients that have no capability
> to render HTML.  That's okay--MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail
> Extenstions RFC 2045 and RFC 2046) provide a way to support both
> text-only and HTML clients, called multipart/alternative in MIME.  It
> is up to the sender of the email to support MIME multipart/alternative
> correctly by supplying meaningful content in two separate mail
> attachments--text/plain for text-only clients, and text/html for Gmail
> and other HTML-capable clients.  If you are using Gmail you will only
> see the HTML part.  You need to see the text/plain part to see what
> issues it has.
>
> To claim that your preference of email client, Gmail, "looks fine" and
> then dismissing anyone else's issues as "a client issue" implies that
> you don't care about people who use different clients.  That is not a
> way to garner support and reaching consensus for changing how the
> Fedora Project communicates with its members.
>

I'm not an email expert by any means.  What I said was that it works
perfectly fine for me. If people have an issue with it they should file a
bug or enhancement request with the discourse project. That way the issue
could be addressed and everyone could benefit.

>
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:48 AM Gerald B. Cox  wrote:

>
>
>
>
> The thing is, it doesn't matter. Discourse is *not* designed to
>> support the types of discussions that do happen on these lists, nor is
>> it designed to handle the load or the number of disparate
>> conversations.
>
>
>
> I've experienced the switchover from mail lists to
>> Discourse before with OpenMandriva, and asynchronous development
>> discussions basically died. The OpenMandriva developers (myself
>> included) rely on IRC and IRC meetings even more so than we did
>> before, because Discourse is just awful for this. And OpenMandriva is
>> a hundredth of the scale of Fedora development list.
>>
>
> Can you please articulate that difference?  As far as traffic is
> concerned, that was
> addressed earlier in the thread and I don't see how that is an issue.
>
>>
>>
Here is also a good link:
https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email-mailing-lists/54298
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

The thing is, it doesn't matter. Discourse is *not* designed to
> support the types of discussions that do happen on these lists, nor is
> it designed to handle the load or the number of disparate
> conversations.



I've experienced the switchover from mail lists to
> Discourse before with OpenMandriva, and asynchronous development
> discussions basically died. The OpenMandriva developers (myself
> included) rely on IRC and IRC meetings even more so than we did
> before, because Discourse is just awful for this. And OpenMandriva is
> a hundredth of the scale of Fedora development list.
>

Can you please articulate that difference?  As far as traffic is concerned,
that was
addressed earlier in the thread and I don't see how that is an issue.

>
>
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:31 AM Jason L Tibbitts III 
wrote:

> >>>>> "GBC" == Gerald B Cox  writes:
>
> GBC> People keep saying it isn't sufficient or it doesn't work.  I've
> GBC> been using it for 3 days and looks and acts like a normal mailing
> GBC> list.
>
> And I've been using it since the RT project switched a couple of years
> ago.  And... it doesn't really look and act like a normal mailing list.
> Putting aside the issues with formatting of messages which is discussed
> elsewhere in this thread, certainly it generates messages and accepts
> replies and so technically it's a mailing list.  But as a medium for
> discussion which involves email, it simply doesn't work out.  the system
> appears to either foster or encourage changes which result in the
> delivered messages being less useful than messages from a mailing list.
>
> The fundamental problem is that web forums tend to make less use of
> quoting.  The end result is similar to top-posting, but in the other
> direction.  Instead of complete "context" that's primarily useless, the
> result is no context at all.  So you have to browse the rest of the
> thread in your email program (which thankfully is still possible) or
> click over to the web site.  Neither is ideal.
>
> So, really, you've used it for a couple of days, have declared it fine,
> and then boldly declared "Fedora should replace mailing lists with
> Discourse".  But I've used it for a bit longer, and my experience has
> simply been negative.  The discourse system simply does not serve to
> foster email-based discussion.
>

Yes, I've only used it for a few days - but I disagree with your wholesale
assumption regarding
context.  There have been countless times when I've started reading a topic
mid discussion for
various reasons and I have no idea what the original point was.  I then
either have to trudge through
my mail archives or go to the website and search through the entire topic
to understand what is going on.

IMO, it's easier to do that with discourse than with the mailing list.
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:15 AM Matthew Miller 
wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 05:00:32PM +, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
> > How do I start a thread on Discourse from email? We should start this
> > discussion over there so we can experience it ourselves.
>
> So, yeah, that's a thing: we currently have that feature turned off,
> because
> I'm worried about spam. So you can reply to threads, but not start them.
>

Matt, would probably be a good idea to turn that on so people could try it
out.
People can also try it out at the following sites:

discourse.mozilla.org
meta.discourse.org

There are countless others, just do a search.


> Discourse is *definitely* not a smooth, drop-in mailing list replacement
> like Hyperkitty is.
>

Of course it's not identical to a what we have now... that is kind of the
point.  However, from what
I have seen the mailing list mode is a good compromise for those who want
to continue that mode
of communication.

I would submit bug reports if I had a problem with the features or
capabilities of mailing list mode -
however, for me it works perfectly.  I would encourage those who aren't
happy with it to take a few
moments to follow up with the discourse people to either file a bug or
request an enhancement.  It
is to everyone's best interest to help to improve the product.
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:40 AM Fulko Hew  wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 12:28 PM Jason L Tibbitts III 
> wrote:
>
> While I'm not a contributor to these lists, I do follow them
> and have so for probably 20 years now.  Like Jason, I have had
> other projects move away from mailing lists, and that now means
> I have to make a concious effort to 'poll' their system, rather
> than having a push notification.  Needless to say, I don't follow
> them any more, and I don't know what's happening there.
>
> Push means I find out whenever something happens.
> If nothing happens... then that's OK with me, I'm not bothered.
> But to be constantly polling for 'is there anything new... is there
> anything new'
> (whether there is or not), is just plain inefficient.
>
> I hope that doesn't happen to Fedora too.
>
> [Just my 2 cents worth.]
>
> Again, especially for a user of gmail, there is mailing list mode.  People
keep saying it isn't sufficient or it
doesn't work.  I've been using it for 3 days and looks and acts like a
normal mailing list.
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 7:38 AM Anderson, Charles R  wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 07:23:28AM -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 5:07 AM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski <
> > domi...@greysector.net> wrote:
> > > I tried the mailing list mode to have it send me e-mail messages,
> > > but the messages are multipart/alternative (html+text) with the
> > > text part mangled and containing pieces of HTML code. Failure here
> > > as well.
> >
> > Could this be because of the particular email client you're using?  I use
> > gmail and they look fine.  Probably not fair to judge the system on the
> > capabilities
> > of your email client.  Wouldn't the same thing happen if people sent you
> > email from
> > gmail, etc. with embedded html?   What the mailing list mode does do is
> to
> > allow you to
> > read and respond without a browser.
>
> No, if an email sender (Discourse) uses multipart/alternative with two
> attachments, text/plain and text/html, then it is required that the
> sender format the text/plain part as text with no HTML in it.


Where is that defined?  Probably would be a good idea to open a bug with
them
if they are violating some official standard.


> It is
> also required to send semantically similar contents in both the
> text/plain and text/html parts, so that the text/plain part can act as
> a real human-readable alternative in the multipart/alternative message
> (i.e. it shouldn't set the text/plain part to be something like "Your
> email client doesn't support HTML.  Please open this message in an
> HTML-capable client.")
>
> In my experience so far with the 3 messages I've received from
> Discourse in mailing-list mode, it doesn't send raw HTML in the
> text/plain attachment.  It sends something that looks like BBcode:
>

Well, which is it?  Rathann says html, you say bbcode?  Regardless, as I
mentioned
above, if they have a bug, then it should be reported for them to address.
Mailing list mode
has been out for several years now - seems to me if this were a pervasive
issue with a
published standardize solution, they should take care of it.

Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me.
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 5:07 AM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski <
domi...@greysector.net> wrote:

> On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 at 22:38, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote:
> [...]
> > And I agree, too much clicking. Reading e-mail with mutt on a terminal
> > is so much faster.
>
> So, I tried the keyboard navigation mentioned elsewhere in the thread.
> Not easy to use at all and still have to use the browser.
>

I believe you meant to say "still have to use a mouse." The keyboard
navigation is for the browser mode - so
you are using the browser to access it.  I've tried the shortcuts and use a
few... I mix and match.


> I tried the mailing list mode to have it send me e-mail messages,
> but the messages are multipart/alternative (html+text) with the
> text part mangled and containing pieces of HTML code. Failure here
> as well.
>

Could this be because of the particular email client you're using?  I use
gmail and they look fine.  Probably not fair to judge the system on the
capabilities
of your email client.  Wouldn't the same thing happen if people sent you
email from
gmail, etc. with embedded html?   What the mailing list mode does do is to
allow you to
read and respond without a browser.


>
> For someone who doesn't like to use a browser to access e-mail or
> any kind of discussion-type messaging, Discourse is not a good
> tool in my opinion.
>

That's fair... if your don't like to use a browser to access email.  You're
entitled
to your preferences and opinion - but many people do like using browser
based
email.


>
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:59 AM stan  wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 08:51:33 -0700
> "Gerald B. Cox"  wrote:
>
> > Yeah, based upon the trial and previous comments I knew it was being
> > considered.  The point
> > of my thread was that many people probably haven't taken the time to
> > checkout the Fedora Discourse
> > website or read the Foreman analysis that Matt provided.   They
> > should.
>
> Did this.  I didn't like all the clicking; I prefer shortcut keys.
>

Press the ? key and a window will pop up with all the keyboard shutcuts

>From what I can see on the web, Discourse is trying to mimic social
> platforms so users familiar with them find it easy to use.  Also seems
> targeted to mobiles.  That *could* be beneficial for getting new blood
> into Fedora, as most younger people who show interest are going to be
> in the intersection of those two factors.
>
> > The difference between using Discourse and mailing lists is night and
> > day.
>
> But which is night and which is day?  :-)  Seriously, this is a value
> judgement, which is true for *you*, but not necessarily for others.
> Are you similar to the people who are being targeted by this change?
> Yes?  That's evidence it might work.
>
> I believe the product provides a more natural discussion environment, while
allowing a mailing list mode for those who prefer that.  Considering the
many
current deployments, that appears to be a popular opinion.



> > As far as larger lists... check out this link:
> > https://meta.discourse.org/t/biggest-busiest-discourse-forums/30674
>
> I don't think any of the Fedora lists I'm subscribed to are high
> traffic, even this one, so that isn't really relevant.  I suppose it
> does show there is room for growth.
>

That was mainly in response to a concern about the platform scalibility.
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:39 AM Neal Gompa  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:35 PM Simo Sorce  wrote:
> >
> > Ah nice side-thing I just found out, discussion.fedoraproject.org does
> > not show *anything* unless I let my browser access this website
> > http://discourse-cdn-sjc1.com
> >
> > That doesn't feel right.
> >
>
> Fedora is not hosting its Discourse instance. And I think it appears
> to be a general trend of no longer self-hosting the infrastructure we
> leverage. Personally, I think that's a mistake that will probably bite
> us again (remember Transifex?). But if that's the way we want to go,
> oh well.
>

It's most likely about budgets and manpower.  Many companies now have
outsourced many parts
of their infrastructure... especially email - it's usually cheaper, and
many companies no longer want to
deal with supporting it.
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:32 AM Simo Sorce  wrote:

> On Tue, 2018-10-16 at 07:12 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>
> From the foreman post, in the comments:
> Email interface does not really work, there should be rather called
> “notifications”. You must visit the site eventually.
>
> I personally find this a fatal flaw, I do not have time to waste
> visiting slow websites for each project I follow. If I have to switch
> away from my mail client I just end up unfollowing the project unless I
> am focusing specifically on it at that time.
>
> > It really is a much better solution.
>
> Better for whom and for what purpose ?
>
> I am sure it won't be better for me, all "web forums" I ever used made
> for my disappearence from the platform as it was too expensive (time-
> wise) for me to keep up.
>
> Simo.
>
>
> I believe that commenter was confusing notification mode with mail list
mode:
https://meta.discourse.org/t/what-is-mailing-list-mode/46008/9

But with that said, he still closes with:
'"Now, to the point. I think the change was for the good. Thanks for the
report."
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 8:41 AM Ben Cotton  wrote:

>
> Council is considering it, and CommOps just started a 2-month
> experiment to see how it goes. It makes sense to me that we wait and
> see how those go before we start considering larger moves. I'm worried
> in particular about larger lists such as this one where there's a
> large number of users and a high volume of traffic. I haven't used
> Discourse enough to know what the experience is like at that point.
>
> I agree that moving to Discourse (or any other change in how we
> communicate) needs to be backed by a well-thought-out proposal.
> Whichever technology we choose, it will be better for some and worse
> for others. That's unavoidable, but we should be intentional about the
> changes we make and what impact they will have on the community.
>
> Hey Ben...

Yeah, based upon the trial and previous comments I knew it was being
considered.  The point
of my thread was that many people probably haven't taken the time to
checkout the Fedora Discourse
website or read the Foreman analysis that Matt provided.   They should.

The difference between using Discourse and mailing lists is night and day.

As far as larger lists... check out this link:
https://meta.discourse.org/t/biggest-busiest-discourse-forums/30674
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 8:06 AM Ben Rosser  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:39 AM Gerald B. Cox  wrote:
> > But RSS really isn't the point of this thread.  My point is that Fedora
> should move to Discourse.  It's a much better solution for
> > discussion.  We should publish a timeline and just do it.
>
> Fedora should not "just do it" because "it's a much better solution".
> If you want Fedora to consider moving to Discourse over email, it
> would be nice to see an analysis like:
>
> 1) What are the pros and cons? Is Discourse's mailing list mode an
> acceptable interface for people who prefer maillng lists and wouldn't
> want to interact with Discourse itself?
>
> 2) What's the migration strategy look like? Can users on the mailing
> lists be automatically added to the relevant discourse lists?
>
> 3) Will there be a transition period where the old list addresses
> continue to work? Can they be maintained in perpetuity, or at least
> aliased to the right thing?
>
> I'm not saying *you* need to answer these questions, but I think
> *someone* should before proposing to move all of Fedora's mailing list
> infrastructure to Discourse. We would request answers to similar
> questions for a system-wide change proposal, and I think generally
> similar policies should be applied when considering major changes to
> the distribution's infrastructure. And the mailing lists are
> definitely an important part of the distribution's infrastructure.
>

Did you checkout the Fedora Discourse site and read the Foreman analysis
that Matt provided?

We're not talking about re-inventing the wheel here... nor are we the first
organization that have done this.

I'm sure there are lots of lessons learned available to review - and I
would expect that the Fedora team
that is working on Discourse now is totally aware of this.
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:25 AM Chris Murphy 
wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 8:13 AM Gerald B. Cox  wrote:
>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 9:21 AM Matthew Miller 
>> wrote:
>> ...
>> > That's why the general trend is *away* from email.
>> >
>> > The Foreman community recently switched away from mailing lists in this
>> way,
>> > and
>> https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html
>> > is really interesting and helpful read on the topic for those who might
>> have
>> > some ... trepidation.
>> >
>> > I'm not sayin' we are ready to shut this list down, but it's honestly
>> worth
>> > considering if a different approach will be more effective.
>>
>> Before the daggers come out please take some time to checkout Fedora
>> Discourse
>> https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/  and read the Foreman community
>> link above.
>>
>> As I had previously mentioned, Discourse allows for RSS feeds and email
>> notifications.  It also has a mailing list mode.
>>
>
> RSS is going away. And part of that, Mozilla is removing built-in RSS
> support in Firefox 64.
>
>
Well, for the moment, Discourse supports it (as well as Fedora updates) -
and FWIW I've never used RSS Support in Fx.  I use Tiny Tiny RSS and
Inoreader and have yet to have a problem adding a feed from a site.  There
are also many many other clients available - too many to list here.

If it goes away however, such is life - and I'll use the next best thing.

But RSS really isn't the point of this thread.  My point is that Fedora
should move to Discourse.  It's a much better solution for
discussion.  We should publish a timeline and just do it.
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Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 9:21 AM Matthew Miller 
wrote:
...
> That's why the general trend is *away* from email.
>
> The Foreman community recently switched away from mailing lists in this
way,
> and
https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html
> is really interesting and helpful read on the topic for those who might
have
> some ... trepidation.
>
> I'm not sayin' we are ready to shut this list down, but it's honestly
worth
> considering if a different approach will be more effective.

Before the daggers come out please take some time to checkout Fedora
Discourse
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/  and read the Foreman community link
above.

As I had previously mentioned, Discourse allows for RSS feeds and email
notifications.  It also has a mailing list mode.

It really is a much better solution.
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Picard Version 2.0.3 is available

[Gerald B. Cox]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1603193

Hello, this record has been open since July with no response from the
maintainer.  I'm not actually sure if this has dedicated maintainer or
is just reliant on proven packagers.

Another user has even provided a spec file which builds fine, so it's
not like it will take alot of time to push the update.

If no one wants to build it, someone please give me access and I'll
submit the build.

Thanks!
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Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 8:21 PM Reindl Harald  wrote:
>
> nice for you, other prefer email and *local* archives which sirely don't
> disappear *because* you control the whole client and if somebody next
> year makes a relaunch of the online stuff with a bad usability or
> lacking features you are doomed
>
> "do you have to worry about using space to archive conversations which
> are important to you" is nonsense - if it's *important* for you you need
> it local with your won control of archiving and backups

What if your system crashes and your backups were destroyed?  You are doomed!

The bottom line is that Discourse is a superior solution.  It allows
for rss feeds, email
notifications, bookmarks, editing your posts, etc.  The threads are
infinitely more readable.

For those of you who must use email can simply turn on "mailing list mode".

Before criticising a solution, try it out.
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Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 7:06 AM Anderson, Charles R  wrote:
> One click is too much for my terminal email client via SSH on my
> phone.  My email client already supports filtering into separate
> mailboxes for each list and also supports threads shown in a
> hierarchy.  If Fedora lists go away in favor of a web forum, I will
> probably just not participate anymore.

I just tried it out and found it incredibly easy to use.  Not only
that, noticed I had
made an error in my post and was able to simply edit it.  Easily setup
a rss feed for
notifications.  Love it.
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Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 2:33 PM Matthew Miller  wrote:
>
> The fact is, the world has moved away from quoted mail with inline replies.
> Top posting rules basically everywhere except hold-out old-school mailing
> lists. Gmail, both on the web and _especially_ on mobile, makes it almost
> impossible to do quoting and inline replies properly. I can't imagine other
> big consumer email providers are much better.
>
> Yes, this sucks for having nuanced point-by-point discussions. But I don't
> think that's a tide we're really going to hold back. We should look at other
> tools that fit with the way people do asynchronous online discussion today.
> As Brian noted, we're trying out Discourse at 
> https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/
> —  if you're interested in trying it out, come join the conversation there.

Completely agree - and discourse is a great solution.  It allows for
RSS feeds and
email notifications = participation is a click away.  Your email inbox
is no longer cluttered
with hard to follow threads, nor do you have to worry about using
space to archive conversations which
are important to you... just use the bookmark feature.
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Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 4:46 AM Ankur Sinha  wrote:
> A known, but unsolved issue from the looks of it (from a 2014 post):
> https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/gmail/d7ySu-m1rgY

Yep... and the issue is 4 years old and ends with the recommendation
of "Send Feedback".  I have
no idea why Google doesn't add text mode to it's gmail phone apps...
seems like it would be
a simple thing for them to do - but then again, look at their other
apps - especially their
messaging strategy (or apparent lack thereof).  It's the wild west over there.

As @Chris mentioned, if people collectively believe it's a big enough
issue, start bouncing
HTML emails.
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Re: Heads Up: python2 is marked as deprecated

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Sun, Sep 16, 2018 at 4:12 PM Kevin Kofler  wrote:

> We CANNOT just drop half of the distribution just because upstream
> arbitrarily decided to desupport its widely used language interpreter in
> favor of an incompatible new major version.
>

Well, to be fair the writing has been on the wall for Python ever since the
release of 3.0 in 2008.  With the sunset date
of 2020 we're talking 12 years.  Ultimately, it's the responsibility of
upstream to do the migration.  It's not like they haven't had
plenty of notice.  If upstream no longer cares, it's not practical for
Fedora to accept the ongoing maintenance for these packages.
That's just not realistic nor sustainable.
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Re: DNF: "There are following alternatives to this package"

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 9:17 AM, Tomas Orsava  wrote:

> Hi!
> We'd like to propose a new functionality for dnf: When a user tries to
> install a package XYZ and dnf doesn't find it, dnf would recommend them
> alternative packages. These offered packages would advertise that they are
> an alternative for XYZ using a specially formatted Provides tag.
>
>
I'm all for improving and expanding the functionality of DNF - but
shouldn't we finish outstanding requests before
proposing new ones:

This one at the time was considered somewhat important and now it is almost
2 years old.

Expand Upgrade function to optionally perform "offline" upgrades
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1382063
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Re: Orphaning clementine

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 11:22 AM, John Florian 
wrote:

> On 2018-09-05 13:41, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>
> I would recommend you check out qmmp.  It's light weight, runs with qt5
> and does what it sets out to do, which is be a flexible, lightweight music
> player that runs on qt5, supports skins, has many good plugins for extra
> features, supports tagged and folder based album covers, etc.
>
> There is a thread here:  bit.ly/2M2JgnE - where players are discussed.
>
> qmmp has been has been actively maintained since it first come out in 2007.
>
> The current release is 1.2.3 which was released July 20th, 2018.
>
>
> That's good to know, thanks!  It does look like it could do the job for
> me.  I hope to continue to use clementine, if possible but qmmp looks quite
> solid for the basics -- at least once I got rid of that dreaded default
> interface.  Count me in the same category as Rex Dieter of finding it way
> too small and I don't know I would have found the setting buried in the
> plugins had you not pointed it out in that thread.  I do have to say, I
> like the plugin nature though.  Kind of reminds of the old firefox that was
> pure and small; add only the bloat you need.  I haven't tried to do any tag
> editing with it yet, but it appears to be there.  My biggest miss would be
> dynamic playlists where I could create some pretty crazy schemes for what I
> wanted to hear (or not hear).  I also prefer my "random" music pre-shuffled
> so I can see what's coming up and what's behind me.  (I honestly own so
> much music sometimes I don't know who just played.)
>

The default interface for qmmp is based upon winamp, and it's setup to
easily use a vast number of available winamp skins.  Some people like it,
some people don't.  I prefer the simple interface, but it is fun to play
with the skinned interface (winamp) from time to time.  Some are hard to
read, others are not.

I see from your next reply you found the edit/randomize, shuffle, etc.

There is also a History plugin, you might wish to activate.  In addition,
there is a track actions plugin you might be interested in.

Also, of course, if you have a suggestion, request, problem etc. give the
project feedback.

For further discussion about qmmp, please use the kde mailing list.

Thanks!
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Re: Orphaning clementine

[Gerald B. Cox]

I would recommend you check out qmmp.  It's light weight, runs with qt5 and
does what it sets out to do, which is be a flexible, lightweight music
player that runs on qt5, supports skins, has many good plugins for extra
features, supports tagged and folder based album covers, etc.

There is a thread here:  bit.ly/2M2JgnE - where players are discussed.

qmmp has been has been actively maintained since it first come out in 2007.

The current release is 1.2.3 which was released July 20th, 2018.


On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 8:43 AM, John Florian  wrote:

> Jan, as a longtime clementine user, I'm sorry to read this.  I had no idea
> upstream had gone dormant.  It works great for me, but I have no idea of
> what pain may have been involved in getting/keeping it in that form for
> users like me.  Unfortunately, I too am short on time (and I don't do C).
> Thanks for all you've done!
>
> Do you know of a good alternative, preferably Qt-based, KDE/Plasma
> friendly, and available in Fedora?
>
>
>
> On 2018-09-05 07:05, Jan Grulich wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I haven't been using clementine for a long time and don't have really time
>> looking into clementine issues. This is even more complicated given
>> upstream
>> is more or less dead and latest release is more than 2 years old.
>>
>> Feel free to take it.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jan
>>
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Re: Source tarballs are being placed in git?

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 4:48 AM, Vít Ondruch  wrote:

>
> "new-sources" should not be mentioned in basic documentation. These should
> be added via means of "fedpkg import package.srpm".
>
> The workflow for new package is then:
>
> ~~~
> $ fedpkg import mypackage.srpm
> $ git commit -m "initial import"
> ~~~
>
> and for updated package:
>
> ~~~
> $ git add -u
> $ fedpkg clog
> $ git commit -F clog
> $ fedpkg import updated.srpm
> $ git commit --am
> ~~~
>
> This way, the question if the file is stored in lookaside cache or git is
> done by fedpkg. Also please note that the "import" command removes patches
> which are not used any longer (not sure if it adds new patches ...).
>
>
>
Thanks.  If fedpkg has this capability IMO it should be referenced in the
package maintenance guide.  I understand that documentation is boring, but
if someone makes a change or adds capability to a package, they need to
take a few moments to update references to those capabilities in the
documentation - especially if that documentation is something as important
as the "package maintenance guide".  I reference the guide every single
time I make changes to packages - just to ensure I'm following the current
rules.  At least for me, it's vital that these instructions are current and
correct.
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Re: Source tarballs are being placed in git?

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 10:07 AM, Artur Iwicki 
wrote:

> That section of the guide is a bit poorly worded. You should *not* use
> "git add" on source tarballs. These should be added only via means of
> "fedpkg new-sources $FILES; git add ./sources". I believe what the guide
> means under "new source files" is e.g. when upstream does not provide an
> icon or a .desktop or an .appdata.xml file (or a systemd .service or
> whatever) and you add your own. This does not include "new upstream release
> tarball".
>
> I'll try to think of some way to make that more clear and submit a
> suggestion to change the guide text.
>

Thanks for the clarification and taking the initiative to get it fixed.  As
far as "poorly worded", that's a candidate
for understatement of the day... LOL

It uses the exact same wording - "new source files" in both statements with
absolutely no differentiation:

- Stage any small patches or new source files for commit:
- Upload new source files to the lookaside cache:
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Source tarballs are being placed in git?

[Gerald B. Cox]

I received an email this AM from a fellow packager:




*Please, do not put source tarballs in git. This is not what is supposed to
happen. Package sources are managed with fedpkg, they are just added to the
lookaside cache and to the .gitignore file so you don't add them by mistake
to the repository.https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_maintenance_guide
How did you
manage to add them to the commit even if they are already in .gitignore?*

The package is megatools.  The procedure I used was from the maintenance
guide -
yet apparently, these files ended up in a place where they weren't suppose
to be.

The commands I used were:

   - *Stage any small patches or new source files for commit:*

*git add (somefile)
*

*Details *

*git does not consider all files in the working directory to be a part of
the git repository by default (handy, for keeping other files around that
are relevant, like the source tree). This tells git to start considering
these files as part of the repository locally. When you 'commit' and 'push'
later, this change is communicated to the server. *

   - * Upload new source files to the lookaside cache:*

*fedpkg new-sources
*
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Re: Change DNF to use Zchunk for F29

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 12:29 PM, Jonathan Dieter  wrote:

> On Mon, 2018-07-02 at 07:46 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Zchunk_Metadata
> >
> > It appears to be a good idea, but when going through the readme, I
> > found this:
> >
> > Please note that, while the code is pretty reliable and the file
> > format shouldn't see any further changes, the API is still not fixed.
> > Please do not use zchunk for any mission-critical systems yet.
> >
> > I would consider DNF to be a mission critical system.  Shouldn't we
> > wait until zchunk is deemed
> > ready?  I don't understand how it is OK to use this for DNF, but it
> > isn't OK for
> > "any mission-critical systems".
>
> Sorry, this is my fault.  Zchunk was designed with the use-case of dnf
> repository metadata in mind.  I put that line in the README to make
> sure that nobody used zchunk for unrelated projects until we'd
> stabilized the API by actually using it in librepo and friends (what
> dnf uses to actually download its metadata).
>
> In other words, this feature is driving zchunk's design rather than the
> other way around.
>
> And, since the patches to librepo all work and are in the review state
> right now, I expect that there will be few, if any, further changes to
> zchunk's API.
>

Understood... thanks for the clarification Jonathan!
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Re: Change DNF to use Zchunk for F29

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 8:06 AM, Igor Gnatenko <
ignatenkobr...@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 2, 2018, 15:54 Gerald B. Cox  wrote:
>
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Zchunk_Metadata
>>
>> It appears to be a good idea, but when going through the readme, I found
>> this:
>>
>> *Please note that, while the code is pretty reliable and the file format
>> shouldn't see any further changes, the API is still not fixed. Please do
>> not use zchunk for any mission-critical systems yet.*
>>
>> I would consider DNF to be a mission critical system.  Shouldn't we wait
>> until zchunk is deemed
>> ready?  I don't understand how it is OK to use this for DNF, but it isn't
>> OK for
>> "any mission-critical systems".
>>
>
> I would say that DNF must do proper fallback in which case if zchunk
> fails, DNF falls back to downloading full metadata. However, DNF does that
> do any out-of-process metadata handling which might crash it entirely (but
> I think we can fix such issues quickly).
> --
>
I believe you're missing my point here... DNF should always do proper
fallback - that wasn't the concern.  The concern is why we are implementing
a change to DNF using software that
by it's own admission should not be used for mission critical systems?
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Change DNF to use Zchunk for F29

[Gerald B. Cox]

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Zchunk_Metadata

It appears to be a good idea, but when going through the readme, I found
this:

*Please note that, while the code is pretty reliable and the file format
shouldn't see any further changes, the API is still not fixed. Please do
not use zchunk for any mission-critical systems yet.*

I would consider DNF to be a mission critical system.  Shouldn't we wait
until zchunk is deemed
ready?  I don't understand how it is OK to use this for DNF, but it isn't
OK for
"any mission-critical systems".
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Re: F29 Self Contained Change: Deprecate YUM 3

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 10:37 PM, Tomasz Torcz  wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 05:49:39PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 02:37:07PM -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > > If we're keeping both commands, I don't really care - but to make
> > > sure I'm understanding this, we're proposing to eliminate the yum
> > > code, create a symlink for yum pointing to dnf and then change our
> > > documentation to no longer reference dnf - only reference yum?
> >
> > That's my suggestion, although "no longer reference dnf" is a bit
> > strong. We'd use `yum` as the standard command in documentation about
> > package management, but detailed documentation would talk about "yum
> > powered by dnf".
>
>   After half a decade of using dnf? It's aready ingrained in my muscle
> memory and some of my ansible scripts.  Flipping the name of most
> important command every few years is really counter-productive, yum→dnf
> transition was painful enough. I'm against inflicting such self-harm
> again.
>

If you read the above, the DNF code isn't being changed or replaced.  It
will
still be there and in fact, YUM will only be a symlink pointing to DNF.
That does
raise the question though of what will happen when you enter:  yum --help
or man
yum.  Since we're using "powered by DNF", I would assume it would still
reference DNF.

I believe in a round about way, they are just saying that they don't want
to change
all the documentation that references YUM.
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Re: F29 Self Contained Change: Deprecate YUM 3

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Matthew Miller 
wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 03:45:06PM -0400, Przemek Klosowski wrote:
> > To tie two recent devel list threads, this is a perfect use case for
> > a ~/bin being first in PATH: a ~/bin/yum -> /bin/dnf symlink for
> > those that don't want to rewrite scripts.
>
> As I understand it, regardless of which one we decide to document and
> market as primary, the plan is for the package to include that symlink
> and for both commands to just work identically.
>
> If we're keeping both commands, I don't really care - but to make sure I'm
understanding this,
we're proposing to eliminate the yum code, create a symlink for yum
pointing to dnf and then
change our documentation to no longer reference dnf - only reference yum?
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