[SailfishDevel] Problem of Thomas Perl
*Threats from Thomas* So first of all look at Thomas tweets: https://twitter.com/thp4/status/323817400233517056 https://twitter.com/thp4/status/323907491660431360 I don't know if it was about me, because there isn't an exact person mentioned (maybe it was about someone else) and I haven't been sending threats to Thomas (if it was the case I think Thomas should have reported that and _still_ can to the Austrian or Polish police). I won't comment threat (to whoever it was) of publishing someones all _private_ emails and how it aligns with ethics. You can all read about that in countless articles on the Internet and everyone can make their own opinion. Few months earlier I've received threat from Thomas about discrediting me before Austrian Python community (in which, on the sidenote he later succedded). As in Poland there is 2 years data retention for telecommunication operators, police can examine that and I still have that evidence on my phone. *The most probable reason why Thomas made me the whole hell* Read carefully all the tweets from this thread: https://twitter.com/thp4/status/259973497802063872 Do you remember when the apkenv was made avaliable for download for the first time on Thomas Perl's website (thp.io)? Yes it wasn't open source yet at that time, so Thomas provided a binary on his website, but at that time there wasn't any notice/licenses of the parts he used (some people might remember that, I do). Because Thomas was basing his solution on bionic C library from Android Open Source Project he was *obliged* to provide the appropriate notice. I've spotted that license violation and contacted Thomas privately (I didn't want to do a big buzz about that, just to help him fix this simple issue). Guess what was Thomas reaction to that and what he wrote me on IM? The only thing I can say about that is I believe that Thomas was in fury, because someone dared to show him his mistake. Moreover I've discussed the issue at that time with one more person, who can probably be a witness if the whole thing will end at a courthouse, which I would say is now very probable scenario. I would recommend to everyone reading the lines 10-13 if anyone has doubts: http://code.metager.de/source/xref/android/4.0.3/bionic/linker/linker.c Thomas will you deny this facts about apkenv and our conversation? I still have it on my computer. *Relationship with Thomas Perl* There was a nice story in Carsten's post, but does it have much in common with the truth and the facts? Before Thomas started his weird behavior towards me we were normal colleagues (I don't know how else I can call that relationship, feel free to correct me Thomas) from international Python community. It lasted something like ~2 years or a bit less (before the nightmare in 2013/2014). That included Thomas visits in Poland and my single visit (with my old friend Peter) in Vienna in May 2012. During the whole time I've also received various gifts and experienced other friendly gestures from Thomas and I was trying to do the same in exchange. Thomas even helped me a bit with the first SmartDevCon, also mentored one BSc thesis of one of my students. Of course we also had some misunderstandings from time to time, like it happens in every healthy relationship. Just to show you all a few examples of (let's call it) good times: Kielce/Mąchocice, Kraków, Katowice: https://www.flickr.com/photos/thp4/sets/72157627648313327/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/thp4/sets/72157627648730161/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/thp4/sets/72157627772737038/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/thp4/sets/72157631471068182/ Berlin, Katowice: https://www.flickr.com/photos/thp4/7469632078/in/set-72157630347853254 https://www.flickr.com/photos/thp4/sets/72157631471068182/ Thomas, feel free to delete this (probably now embarassing) photos from 2011 and 2012 or better leave them as evidence if you have courage. Sorry, that I had to write it all here, but it seems you have completely lost your common sense (similar like your company, not believing that you might be the source of the problem). I hope there is someone close with you right now or your family knows what is happening, because I'm seriously scared that you might even self-harm yourself in the worst scenario. Remember, there is always some way out and I believe there are plenty of people in Austria and outside it, who know you from your bright side, that would be willing to help you. Anyway I feel that professional help from psychologist/psychotherapist would be the best solution, but for it to make sense, you need to first acknowledge your problem, be sure and feel that you want that, otherwise it probably won't work (forced psychotheraphy usually doesn't work). Regards, Filip PS. Yes I have tried many times to solve the whole thing with Thomas amicably, but it was hard to do it, especially that Thomas never really told me *what exactly has happened* that he started
[SailfishDevel] Farewell to Jolla community!
It was very nice experience to meet many of the people in this community, despite the whole harm that has happened to me from Thomas, Carsten and Jolla the company. I think there is nothing left and I need to leave, as I gave so many chances for Jolla to fix this serious issue and they completely blew it. The last days just confirmed my worst fears that Jolla is a moral bankrupt and is unable to deal properly with problems. I guess everyone that hasn't lost his common sense has noticed that. Now despite I'm leaving the community, I will do all the steps to spread the information about what happened here and how I was harmed. I see it as a justice, the justice I deserve to defend my good name (I'm active for around 10 years in various communities. I am a memeber of Polish Linux Users Group, OpenStreetMap Poland, Hackerspace Silesia and last but not least, recently founded Polish Python User Group, so my involvement in those relies on the trust that people in all those communites has given me choosing on important functions at those associations. Also, leaving the community doesn't mean I'm leaving my friends from it, but I'm happy that I've figured out who my real friends are and what people only pretended to be my friends. To Jolla: My offer of mediation lost its sense. I'm no longer interested in having to deal with your company at any level. To Jolla Investors: I hope you are reading all of this and will know what to do if you care about the rest of your money that haven't been pumped yet to this corpo-startup. To Jolla Partners - Tieto, F-Secure, Nokia/Here and others: I also hope someone will point you to this material and you will think twice with who you are partnering. It might also affect your companies image, especially F-Secure whose business, I would say, highly depends on that. To mass media: Feel free to contact me if you would like to make an article or interview about the whole problem. Reading the Sailfish-devel mailing list mail by mail will help you to understand a lot. If the mailing list, which is now a good evidence, will be deleted as someone suggested, then there is still a lot of evidence at individuals mailboxes. To community members: I don't know what will be soon left from Sailfish and Jolla (Mer and Nemo will probably prevail, including Glacier UI as they are open source, I hope qwazix and locusf, which are a great guys will still work on that despite everything!), but I guess there are some other interesting projects like Neo900, Ubuntu Touch or Tizen. To Finns: I know it's disappointing as Jolla is a Finnish company and you probably had highest hopes from all of us. Unfortunately that's how life goes, let's move forward, you still have Nokia and there are many other interesting and promising startups in Finland. To Jolla employees: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPlBBLc6vno Remember the motto of my blog? Regards, Filip PS. Probably I'm going offline for a few days, need to relax and spend the rest of the weekend with my good friends and my family. PS2. I won't post anything more here, but I will make a thread on TMO as some people suggested. ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Right to silence
W dniu 23.05.2014 08:09, Joona Hoikkala pisze: Here we go again, seems like you really need to do this outpour on the sailfish devel list, so could you PLEASE at least contain it to one thread so the ones that don't wish to get distracted can successfully ignore the thread? As you see others - Carsten Munk don't contain the topic in one thread. *Have equal expectations to everyone, not only to a person you disagree with or don't like.* Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] On accusations made against me and the current situation.
W dniu 23.05.2014 20:44, Andrea Bernabei pisze: My past? Seriously? I just think you crossed the line, you're now dragging Carsten's family in as well, and that's plain unacceptable in my point of view. What are you talking about I haven't thought about Carsten's family even for a moment. As far as I know Carsten lives happily with his wife and his son in Warsaw, so no problem in that area. And now, after I put *so much* energy into trying to help you in the last months (just to be fair to the readers, let's say I've been chatting with Filip about his conflict-with-thp for more than half a year already, or maybe even more than a year, iirc) , what I get back is a brainwasher tag. I haven't chatted privately with you for many months, so I don't know what are you talking about. Moreover are you yet another person like Carsten who feels he has a mission of liberating the whole world and thinks that he knows what is better for every single person and wants to enforce that on that person (basing on own life experience). If so, you will do harm to other people, by trying to enforce what you define as help or best for other people. That also includes making statements if someone is in good or bad state or telling if it gets, better or worse like Carsten (the psychologist without any formal knowledge) falsely assumed in his mail. Andrea, you need to accept simple psychological fact that a person can only discover himself what is best for him. Someone who decides for someone and claims that he knows what is best for the other person, is looking for a slave he can give orders or manipulate, not a friend or partner. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 21.05.2014 22:49, Tone Kastlunger pisze: Thank you for your reply, I'll take it as an honest one. So to me this sounds like it is worth making a mess about it, but only by telling part of the whole story. I do not belive this is completely fair to the audience (or the part of the audience who might be interested in this mailing list); without facts (which you cannot disclose due to cited private reasons) you are calling out for people to make a judgement based on a unilateral (i.e. yours) opinion. Tone so let me use an analogy to explain this to you. If before court defending side resigns from right to defend itself and won't speak a single word whose fault is it? Can you blame judge or the jury (in USA case) that they are making their decision based on what they've heard from prosecutor, who was the only one speaking. It's only far analogy, but I would say a good one a proper in this case. Have you noticed that despite this thread is already so long Thomas is completely silent. I don't believe he doesn't read this mailing list - with a high probability he does. This thread is neither pleasure for me nor for him, in normal conditions it would have never happened. I might be angry at Jolla not reacting or (unfair to me) explaining that it is entirely private case like Stefano claims, despite for Metalab (well known hackerspace in Europe, just like c-base in Berlin) or half people here it isn't. I'm not that much angry at Thomas, to be honest I feel sorry for him, yes that's what I feel, but it is his freedom of choice to act like he acts. I'm not a cold devil as some may think - I do have empathy. I know that publishing more details of this conflict, that are embarassing, won't serve the main goal - ending this conflict on professional (Jolla) level. I can give names which won't mean anything to you, but to Thomas, me and few other people they will - license notice, phd studies blow up, postcardgate, gpodder hack day or very embarrassing for me EP2013. Does Thomas wants to all of this and more to find place here. I doubt it, as it's not a pleasure for anyone. If you will insist and this madness that is going all the time won't stop, I will consider telling everyone the whole story of this conflict from my perspective and then you will be able to go to Thomas and confront it (if he will speak about it at all). Yes, you cite reasoning of exclusion from Meta Hack event, and yes, you cite you being ignored intentionally on IRC, and I can take your side for these not being fair things, but these are all subsequent events, which have a reasoning originating from different conditions (the private matters), so, like it or not, consequences of *yours an THP's own actions*, which btw happened way before THP joined Jolla, so most likely very remotely related to Jolla, I dare to say not related to Jolla at all, pay attention, but - I repeat - *related to yours and THP's own actions*. This is, and remains therefore, a private issue, and does - in my opinion - have nothing to do with the fact THP is member of Jolla. Now, this cleared, I do believe nothing stands in your way to crucifix THP on a personal level, if you have reasons for this. But Jolla has nix nada to do with this, IMO. In including the company, you are hurting the company. The company is hurting me and hurting itself, by tolerating that Thomas took his private conflict with him to Jolla setting. He didn't have to and I can say that in one single case he acted accordingly. I see Qt Developers Day in Berlin, when Atilla Csipa says sth like that Filip, look whose here - Thomas and then Thomas says hi I respond with hi and Thomas takes his hand and shakes mine. I thought that this crazy story is going to end - after few days everything went back to normal state, which we experience and is a problem until today. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 22.05.2014 09:25, Stefano Mosconi pisze: We will have a community meeting today where the issue will be discussed (with Jolla and community) as it happens in every community. So as person who put that point to agenda (not Jolla) I would like to add some important material to this topic. It's my proposal of steps that in my opinion could led to solving the issue, that I've sent to Stefano yesterday (in a private message, but I'm its author so I have right to publish it): http://wklej.org/id/1369055/ I'm sending this material now, because I think that on community meeting there will be less time to read it carefully and discuss it. As person who added this point to agenda I would like for the discussion to focus around that proposal. Also I would like to point that making a meeting at 10:00 UTC (12:00 CET) is not the best idea, as most of the community people in Europe at that time are in their works and in most cases they cannot simply say to their bosses I need to stop my work for 1h 30 min, because there is an important community meeting on IRC. I know the time is good for Jolla employees as they can be on this meeting as part of their job, but others don't have that privilege. That's why in my opinion (but it's only my opinion) community meetings should be done mostly on Saturdays, so that most of the people aren't at work at that time, no matter if they live in Europe, Asia, Africa, AustraliaOceania or both Americas. That's also why most successful community events like FOSDEM are done on weekends in contrast to business oriented events that usually happen in the week, as most people participate in it as a part of their work. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
I wonder if they will ever agree to publish all the mails Developer Care and Iekku sent to me on this case, so we could get chronology and all would see their replies, when and what they replied etc. Also Stefano doesn't want to agree to publish mails he sent to me in the last days. Real transparency and openness. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
I would like to ask where is Marc usually shouting on stage about the values? He is also silent. Where was Jolla community manager through all this time? Once again isn't it strange that Thomas is silent through all the time? Have you seen his tweet yesterday? Meanwhile, back in the real world, people get stuff done. gPodder 4.2.0 Jungle released: http://gpodder.org/news Enjoy! *Meanwhile, back in the real world, people get stuff done.* Is all that perfectly fine as it seems from your tweet? Thomas you are doing harm to yourself. Yes, you definitely need a professional care, the one you recommended me a year ago. Yes, I have went through 5 months of psychotherapy from my own will. Yes, I'm not afraid to speak about that fact, because it's nothing wrong if someone looks for help and does something about it. I took the intensive mode with biweekly sessions, because I wanted to solve the part of the problem that was on my side and have a better life. What I have learned during psychotherapy in the end? That Carsten Munk was psycho-manipulating me by guilt tripping to make me feel guilty and be ashamed of myself. Why he was ready to manipulate someone that was a friend? Because he was afraid that Thomas may leave the company and company and his skunkworks RD was much more important to him, than my harm. He told me that in the mid-January in a moment of honesty when he was drunk, that he is seriously afraid of the fact that Thomas may leave Jolla if I would join the company. Carsten confirm how you have called me on that day? You said that I was your long-term investment. When on one of the next days I was outraged that you treat me like an object, like a pawn in a strategy game you decided to made an offer. Carsten offered me that he will help me to get a job at Jolla if I will be silent about discrimination problem and move away from (open source) stuff that is connected with Thomas. He gave me the time period to two weeks after MWC. Will you Carsten deny that? Yes that was my mistake that I've agreed to such a deal and got corrupted. I was feeling I've agreed to something highly unfair and it's something I'm ashamed of. Carsten also said many times that both me and Thomas are behaving like idiots. Why does he lacks courage to say so now? Has he said that ever to Thomas or was it only saying that to me? Carsten, will you be proud before your son and your wife of what you are doing now? You told something about baptisment of your son on IRC, so I assume you are a Christian (in contrast to me who is an atheist). I would like to ask does your God approve such behaviour? I know that you wanted to protect and help both Thomas and me, but you have chosen a completly wrong and harming path. That's not how problems should be solved, you don't have a degree and practical experience in psychology to tell people what to do. Well in fact if you haven't noticed psychotherapists don't tell people what to do, they learn about them and help them understand the problems they have. How long this mess will have to continue? Will Jolla and its employees find a courage to approach the whole problem seriously? Maybe they never will, but that would be disappointing to all the people that trusted them. You know what I feel? I feel very, very sad that Thomas and Carsten are destroying their own lives with this. In the background we see a company that has completely lost its common sense and forgot that any business should be run in an ethical way, especially if Jolla is claiming to be respectful and unlike, like they did. It makes me sad, completely sad how so much intelligent and talented people in technical areas are completely blind to a serious problem that is happening and at all cost are trying to hide it under the carpet. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
[SailfishDevel] Right to silence
From English Wikipedia: The right to remain silent is a legal right recognized, explicitly or by convention, in many of the world's legal systems. The right covers a number of issues centered around the right of the accused or the defendant to refuse to comment or provide an answer when questioned, either prior to or during legal proceedings in a court of law. This can be the right to avoid self-incrimination or the right to remain silent when questioned. The right usually includes the provision that adverse comments or inferences cannot be made by the judge or jury regarding the refusal by a defendant to answer questions before or during a trial, hearing or any other legal proceeding. This right constitutes only a small part of the defendant's rights as a whole. I will repeat one part. *The right usually includes the provision that adverse comments or inferences cannot be made by the judge or jury regarding the refusal by a defendant to answer questions before or during a trial, hearing or any other legal proceeding.* Now let all think, was it ok for Jolla employees (that mostly dominated yesterday meeting, check in irc logs who was talking most of the time) forcing me to speak and what kind of comments they've made about that. While I respect Thomas Perl right to be silent - it's his choice and I would like others to respect the fact that I was silent during yesterday's meeting. Moreover I clearly stated that I will reply on mailing list after meeting which I've did as promised. I just didn't feel that I will have equal chances to express myself, when Jolla employees where dominating on it. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] On accusations made against me and the current situation.
W dniu 23.05.2014 06:31, Carsten Munk pisze: And as one last comment. Filip, I sincerely worry about your state. You were doing so much better. I'm really sad to see how things turned out now. What ever is going on with you, it's not something I enjoy seeing in somebody I have cared a lot about as a friend. This is for sure not the way forward to get better and change your life for the better. Please don't worry about my state and I have friends support, excellent psychotherapist and I feel fine though I'm stressed and sad by the situation. I would be more worried about you and Thomas when the whole parts of this case will come out. Yes, you can judge me and have own opinions of my state that do not cover with reality. You are suggesting problem of stalking in your mail. I would ask you to tell us what kind of life experiences you have with that problem. What is stalking by your definition? Sending one single postcard with normal greeting from San Francisco to Thomas physical address (that I had from him as he sent me envelope year earlier) when we were still talking and in contact. Because of that postcard Thomas made me one big hell and humiliated me. Or do you call stalking that I've went to open event gPodder Hack Day in the open Metalab Hackerspace (exactly a year ago) just after Thomas throw me out, without giving any reasons from gPodder translation team? Could you tell me the frequency of my vists in Metalab last year when Thomas was there. How much times it was? One, single one. If Thomas felt stalked (hint: stalking is a crime both in Polish and Austrian law) he could and should have reported it to the police and police takes care of such cases if there is factual stalking, not something you call stalking because you are neither police nor the judge in a courthouse. Maybe you should really tell about what bad experiences you had with this kind of problem. Would you care to talk about your earlier past to us and what was your role in it? Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 21.05.2014 13:23, Stefano Mosconi pisze: On 20/05/14 21:20, Filip Kłębczyk wrote: I've read that answer and I think people are interested in what you wrote. According to the answers I have seen so far most people don't share the same opinion. Well it all depends where you look and who you ask. Community is not limited to this mailing list only. Also there are other people outside this community who are angry on how your company reacts. Anyway feel free to have any opinion you want. Briefly speaking I can say that Stefano doesn't see any problem at all. You are speaking on my behalf now Filip. I respect you and I don't tell to the world what you write me privately. Feel free to publish my e-mails I've sent to you and Jolla Developer Care regarding this case. I give you official permission now here before everybody. I also count that you will have courage to publish what you have written. Likewise If I answer privately I would expect you to respect me and keep my answers private. So I expect official, public answer from Jolla in this case, if your messages and what you write are confidential. I've already contacted newspapers and TV in Finland pointing them to this thread, because what I'm witnessing from this company side is just shocking. For me Jolla is self-destroying its image of an unlike company. Regards, Filip PS. From Jolla website: We are truly open. ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 21.05.2014 17:06, Jarko Vihriala pisze: This case is one topic on the upcoming SailfishOS meeting. Yes I've added it even though I don't know if it's the best idea. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 21.05.2014 18:35, Chris Walker pisze: As the first person to respond to this thread, I said I was disappointed. I am even more disappointed now. I'm afraid you lost me when you shot yourself in the foot by posting private content on here. That was a private conversation and should have remained so. It is not good enough that *you* feel it should be published. Plainly a number of people, myself included do not feel that this is the right place for it. Yes, I agree that I should have asked Stefano, before I've pasted part of his mail if he doesn't have anything against that. I'm sorry that I haven't done that and falsely assumed, that when he wrote at beginning that I can treat it as official Jolla Developer Care response, then I'm allowed to post anything from it here. It was my mistake. It is also not acceptable for you to say that we can read it or not. Sorry, but this topic didn't have serious approach in Jolla and I believe this was the right place for that - the problem is about someone from the (developer) community willing to contribute/help and someone from company blocking that or making that harder. It is about participation/_development_ in the open parts, so I don't see any more proper place for that, though I respect you have a different view of it. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 21.05.2014 18:46, Saija Saarenpää pisze: I also hate to see there are conflicts in the field where we all are fighting in the same side, for a greater common good (open source, underdog OS, you name it). I wish all the best for you guys and I hope you can solve things out and we can continue work our way together for the common benefit. I hope it's not impossible to anyone make some space for another who wants to help in this common target, even though there might be some minor disagreements. Let's keep in mind that we are stronger when we all agree to do stuff as one :) Saija, I believe that if the company seriously and fairly will deal with the problem it can only come out stronger from it. I still have some hope for that, despite many disappointments in the recent days. You probably know the saying - if there is a will there is a way. There must be an honest will on both sides to treat the problem completely seriously and look for solution. I haven't closed myself to talk with them not even for a moment, but the ball is on Jolla side. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 21.05.2014 21:19, Tone Kastlunger pisze: What keeps you from mentioning the reasons to the conflict between you and THP? I think it would be embarrassing for both me and Thomas going into all the details and I don't know if it will help in any way to solve the problem pointed here - so discrimination on professional (non-personal) level. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 19.05.2014 20:12, Chris Walker pisze: One is that this needed to appear here at all and second that there *appears* to have been no follow up from anybody at Jolla and in particular, Thomas Perl. That doesn't surprise me at all that Jolla hasn't responded yet. It's a known pattern for Jolla, not only in this case. When there is a serious problem or they fail at something they put all possible effort to hide it instead of simply admitting that they failed with something and focusing more on possible solutions. Then, when unpleasant smell is all around and already too intensive to simply cover it with perfume - in other words when community boils or their clients heavily complain they slowly start to react. You can give countless examples: * Preorders - probably everyone remembers that people that preordered were supposed to get phones before it hit the operator stores. Do you remember when apology came? When people that preordered where loudly complaining everywhere that it's unfair that a random person from a street in Helsinki can get the phone earlier before a person from Spain that preordered in May. * Simcard holder problem - they weren't treating it entirely seriously until I've shown it to Marko Saukko (one of their more close to HW engineers) and demonstrated that it is indeed a HW problem on last FOSDEM. Then it finally resulted in actions, like agreeing to fixing that as a part of a guarantee. * Neglecting collaboration with community in the open source parts - that is improving recently after a lot of buzz in the community, but how much time and complains had to pass before they admitted it is a problem and started to do anything about it. For new candidates you can add: * Silica Components and their open source status (who knows when they will be fully open sourced liked promised more than 1.25 year ago, not even a word about if that should be counted in weeks, months, years, decades or centuries...) In my opinion their marketing/PR is just broken. You can stick posters to operator store, give balloons, do fancy photos and shout big words on stage, but I guess it's not what most of us here really expect from them in the first place. It's fair to say that they are weak, fighting for their place on the market and trying to figure out what their business model can be based on. But that doesn't have to mean giving up being fair to their clients, community and partners. I believe someone decisive there behind management or marketing is a perfectionist and doesn't give himself right to make mistakes. On admitting mistakes and apologizing for them you can build community/clients trust and respect. Sadly they seem to miss that fact through most of the time. The story of American company Enron should be a warning to Jolla employees and Jolla management. To those that do not know the story - magazine Fortune has listed Enron as the most innovative U.S. company for 6 years. One of the reasons that company collapsed was compulsive hiding of problems and doing everything to keep up their image of being perfect. Old (smartphone) Nokia went similar path, missing and ineffective to changes, slowly reacting to revolution that came with iPhone and Android phones. Hope that management in Jolla is wise enough to not follow the same path, otherwise ship might sink. Who will be responsible for that? Neither their clients nor their community. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 20.05.2014 18:17, Stefano Mosconi pisze: On 19/05/2014 12:41, Filip Kłębczyk wrote: Hello, Hi Filip, I'm writing on developers list, because I wanted to express my disappointment with a serious problem that Jolla has and tries to hide under the carpet. [snip] I have answered you privately as I don't think this is the correct place to address the issue. I've read that answer and I think people are interested in what you wrote. Briefly speaking I can say that Stefano doesn't see any problem at all. Moreover he accuses me of harming Jolla public image. I think that Jolla is harming its image itself - if problems and harm wouldn't be ignored there would be no mail on this list. When everything fails people usually go public with what was ignored. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 20.05.2014 20:30, Tone Kastlunger pisze: IMHO, and with all respect, personally I am not interested in cutthorat and dagger, but rather interested in development issues. Feel free to not read this thread. It's your choice what you read or not. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
W dniu 20.05.2014 20:52, Mikael Hermansson pisze: Sorry but you are out of line now. Your gave your point in your first post but keep repeating in this mailinglist is pointless! The mailinglist is for development. I am personally not intrested reading flamewar in here! Now if you want to continue do it elsewhere like TMO or similar / mike7b4 You are free to not read the thread or filter it out in your mail app. On sailfishos.org there is a section Community in the bottom-left corner and there is a link to this mailing list. I see it as most appropriate place - IRC is not suitable for longer messages and wiki isn't rather a correct place for expressing opinions. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
[SailfishDevel] Discrimination and abuse from Jolla employee Thomas Perl
Hello, I'm writing on developers list, because I wanted to express my disappointment with a serious problem that Jolla has and tries to hide under the carpet. Thanks to that from a strong supporter back when Jolla appeared on scene (almost 2 years ago) I became heavily disappointed with this company and it impacted on my whole community activity and caused slowly pulling away. It's important issue, because this could have happened to anyone from developers or other Jolla contributors community. So Thomas Perl and I were in a conflict since beginning of 2013, before he was a Jolla employee. From his side I've received insults (was compared to psycho, called asshole etc.) and even threats (he was threatening me to discredit me in Python community, also he was threatening publish my private mails, where I've begged him to stop this conflict). Thomas used all sorts of actions against me, including kicking me from gPodder project to which I've previously contributed, without any factual technical/quality reasons. I've made many attempts to end this conflict at that time, but without any results. At early July 2013 Thomas Perl joined Jolla. I was scared that he might bring that conflict into the company and Jolla was very important to me. Unfortunately he did that, somewhere on beginning of September 3rd 2013 I've sent an e-mail with questions regarding code he was author of in Nemo mobile project as a Jolla employee (his company mail was listed as a Jolla contact mail for the source file I was interested in). My mail bounced, Thomas has blocked his company e-mail to my e-mail, even though I never brought up any non-technical issues to his company e-mail (only non-technical mail that went there on beginning of July when I wrote there: I've read that you work in Jolla. Congratulations and good luck! Regards, Filip So in September I felt that Thomas Perl brought the conflict into the company, because from that time I wasn't allowed to ask questions regarding Jolla open source or public activity that he was involved it. It's similar situation like you would enter the shop and shop clerk doesn't want to sell you items in store, because of his personal prejudice/reasons (like he don't likes you, your color of skin or gender). I've informed about that problem Carsten Munk, but he ignored it and informed me that he is not a person to handle complains on his co-workers. Then later in December, there was information on Harbour that people can help with Python support on Sailfish: Can I submit Python applications? Currently not, there are some enablers missing for that. But we are working on it, to make that happen. You can support us with that effort, please ask in Nemo project how to help with Python. I wanted to help (since 2007 I'm very active in Polish Python community, even organized 6 editions of the biggest Python event in Poland - 4 days, 330 attendees, also in the past I taught students Python at university etc.). I went there like Harbour stated to nemomobile IRC channel. In result my questions weren't answered unless someone else repeated them. Many people in private conversations (including some connected with Jolla) commented Thomas Perl behavior as unprofessional. After advice of a friend I've reported that issue to Jolla Care: Can I submit Python applications? Currently not, there are some enablers missing for that. But we are working on it, to make that happen. You can support us with that effort, please ask in Nemo project how to help with Python. So I went and asked in #nemomobile as it can be seen in the below log (till 13:57): http://www.merproject.org/logs/%23nemomobile/%23nemomobile.2013-12-03.log.html#t2013-12-03T10:45:06 The log shows that for some reason my questions were ignored, unless someone else repeated the same question after me. I am sad that such things happen from Jolla’s side. In my opinion someone’s personal reasons to dislike someone, shouldn’t justify ignoring someone on professional/company level. I look forward to solving this amicably. Best regards, Filip The mail to Jolla Developer Care didn't receive any response for _months_! As a result of sending above mail to developer care few days later Carsten Munk (Thomas superior/chief in Jolla) started to ignore me. I believe the reason is that he was covering Thomas Perl on this embarrassing issue and tried to put pressure on me to withdraw. Carsten even tried to discredit me on IRC channel which is clearly seen in the logs: http://merproject.org/logs/%23nemomobile/%23nemomobile.2013-12-14.log.html#t2013-12-14T11:26:05 Why Carsten brought this on #nemomobile channel? He wanted to break me and he succeded in that. As a result on the same day I wrote an e-mail to Mer mailing list where I apologized everyone and took the whole blame on myself. Deep inside I felt it was highly unfair and I felt forced to it, especially that I was in an overall bad
Re: [SailfishDevel] [Minutes][FollowUp] A kickoff meeting about SailfishOS, open source, collaboration, way forward @ 15 April, 15:00 UTC
W dniu 15.04.2014 18:40, Thomas B. Rücker pisze: Hi, thanks to everyone for the great discussion. It was a pleasure to chair it. Without further ado, here are the meeting minutes: Minutes: http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-04-15-15.00.html Minutes (text): http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-04-15-15.00.txt Log: http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-04-15-15.00.log.html For follow up discussion just answer to this email/thread. The next meeting will be at2014-04-22T15:00 UTC. Invitation and topics will be posted separately. Thanks again Thank you all for making this meeting to happen - I think it was fruitful discussion. Though, I have one serious, technical/organizational point. I don't understand why time from topic 3.3 was taken - it was supposed to last 16:26 UTC, but ended 16:12 despite there were still discussants. For example what I was expressing was cut by tbr announcing 3.4 and it landed partly in 3.4. For me personally topic 3.3 was very, very important, as much as 3.2 for example. Also I didn't like the fact, that not related topics were brought in 3.3. It's all clearly seen in the logs: http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-04-15-15.00.log.html I know there might be less or more comfortable topics for someone or topic might be not important, but cutting discussion in the middle is not ok and not fair. SOLUTION: Therefore I propose not cutting time of topic if there is still at least one person that wants to say something and continue discussion or discussion is still happening. Also another remark - if there are large chunks of text like: https://together.jolla.com/question/39552/what-is-the-participation-and-contribution-policy-for-jollas-open-source-contributors-in-open-source-projects/ there should be e-mail on mailing list, before meeting, that such thing appeared, so all discussants have time to read it. How that looks, when link to such document is pasted on the beginning of 3.3 and that part of discussion gets time cut I think everyone can judge by himself. Personally I wouldn't even spot it if Morpog_PC didn't paste it on the IRC channel some time before the meeting, that such document appeared. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] A kickoff meeting about SailfishOS, open source, collaboration, way forward @ 15 April, 15:00 UTC
W dniu 11.04.2014 11:41, Carsten Munk pisze: I have been working to make a proposal for agenda (note: this is my proposal, not set in stone, but I think it is time to make one) - you can add/propose changes/change at http://piratepad.net/SailfishOSSMeeting We have limited time and I think it's possible to dedicate time every two weeks to have a sync meeting. We have so many topics to discuss and limited amount of time. Agenda: Focus on generating action points to be undertaken and discussing problems and issues which would constructively lead to solutions. 1. Introductions of participants in meeting [something about you and why you're here] - 10 min 2. When's next meeting: Regular meetings every two weeks around the project? - 5 min 3. How to make contributing to Nemo/Mer easier [big topic] - 1 min introduction 3.1: Current problems and situation, potential solutions [20 min open floor discussion] It seems giving 20 minutes for such imporant and essential part is clearly not enough. There should be at least 30 minutes as there are many points/problems to report. 3.2: Solution proposal: Merge Mer and Nemo middleware [2 min intro + 10 min discussion] [suggested intro holder: Stskeeps/Carsten Munk?] I think this point should go away from agenda. First of all the topic is affecting those at mer-general and as expressed by some people already that shouldn't be a topic only for people here (unless we assume that Mer is Jolla property and different vendors have nothing to say on that matter). Secondly in my opinion the topic should be held on separate meeting as it was proposed earlier - putting too many topics at once might make whole meeting discussion blurry. I think the main point of the whole meeting is problem with development process parts that in opinion of community should happen in the open, not about merges. I'm strongly against putting this topic. 3.3: Solution proposal: Minimal/practical openness requirements and process for open source components in Mer/Nemo/SailfishOS [5 min intro + 15 min discussion] - such as dedicated/listed maintainers/owners, etc. [suggested intro holder: w00t/Robin Burchell?] That's very important topic, clearly connected with 3.1. 3.6 Action proposal: Participation and contribution policy for Jolla's open source contributors in open source projects [5 min intro, 15 min discussion] (Carol?) Valid topic. 3.8 Wrap-up and finalize action points For next meeting(s): Mer and Nemo merge should be added for those. 0. Chum and such [bad summary, but tbr's topic suggested] 1 Specific issue: Closed bits of SailfishOS - why/where/how and relation to open source parts 2: Plans on SailfishOS for Android [10 min intro, 15 min discussion] x: Communication and transparency x.1: Current problems and situation [20 min open floor] x.2: At-meeting solution proposals [20 min open floor] Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] A kickoff meeting about SailfishOS, open source, collaboration, way forward @ 15 April, 15:00 UTC
W dniu 06.04.2014 23:11, Robin Burchell pisze: On 05 Apr 2014, at 10:21, Thomas B. Rücker tho...@ruecker.fi mailto:tho...@ruecker.fi wrote: Reading this I can't help but wonder if Jolla now claims ownership of Mer/Nemo then. Even with fancy hat changing. Bringing this discussion up in a strictly Sailfish context implies this. I think you’ve read a little much into things, but I’d like to point out the obvious here: Jolla are doing the majority of the work in these two projects. So purely in terms of governance and technical knowledge, they are in a position of quite a bit of power. Now, that having been said, the work on these projects has always (without exception) been done in the public realm, with the aim of collaborating with others, Maybe the aim was collaborating with the outside world, but practical implementation of that aim was far away from how it should look like and what community expected. to some degrees of success. We’ve seen people make tools/hacks/fixes around that stuff, and that’s great. It might be improvable, but it’s a positive thing already. I would say many of those hacks were despite all odds and Jolla not helping or even setting up ridiculous obstacles, where things could have been done the easy way, but not instead dirty hacks were the only possibility. A bit of an example of general attitude from a bit different area is if you want Sailfish OS source code you need to ask for a CD/DVD whereas it could also have been put online, which would save time and money for both sides. Well in the end tbr uploaded it, but frankly speaking it shouldn't be his job to make things easier, but in Jolla own interest. I see it as kind of attitude - if we don't know what to do in a company, let's use old Nokia ways of solving problems (even if they are nowadays something awkward or some corpo-ridiculousness that doesn't fit into something you would expect from a startup). Community can forgive a lot - annoying bugs, simcard holder problems, sudden reboots and other stuff which can happen to every company releasing a new product, but on condition that such company really cares about community and makes things easier for collaboration, not harder. That should especially be taken into account that some of the community memebers, were actively spreading word about Jolla and how this company is very open and unlike. I don't want to look at some of my friends eyes who bought Jolla after my recommendation and say Well it's not that open in terms of collaboration as they promised, sorry it seems we've been misleaded. I guess what I’m trying to say is that, from a strictly open source point of view, the ones doing the work dictate the direction - one could even say this implies ownership, yes. But on the other hand, while I can’t speak for the entire company, I (and the folks I know and work with on a daily basis) have collaboration and cooperation at heart, even if execution could be improved on - which is what provided the impetus for this thread. I think many people want good like you said, but on the other side community clashes with such employees comments (when asking for issues list/bugs/roadmap of Nemo MW): We don't want the community to work on the bugs and take our jobs!. It shows the problem community helping == taking our jobs existing in some heads. And yes I can even look for who said sth like that on IRC in one of the Jolla related public channels if you don't believe such statements were said by your colleagues. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] A kickoff meeting about SailfishOS, open source, collaboration, way forward @ 15 April, 15:00 UTC
W dniu 07.04.2014 23:18, Robin Burchell pisze: But don’t let that criticism of an individual tar an entire company, 80+ people with their own opinions, minds, and thoughts by the same brush - especially if you expect those same people to listen to your thoughts. No one is tarring an entire company if that would be the thing I wouldn't be writing in my previous mail: I think many people want good like you said and (in context of those actions I criticize) in some heads (some != most/all) With all respect Robin but I think you are a bit overreacting here. I can write that Jolla does everything perfect, but that would be with harm to your company. I try to be fair as possible, you can ask Stskeeps what I've done together with a friend a week ago when some guy on the conference during his talk gave a clearly false and unfair statement about Jolla. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] Nemo MW to Mer
W dniu 06.04.2014 09:57, Bernd Wachter pisze: Filip Kłębczyk fklebc...@gmail.com writes: Sorry, but this sounds like, either it will be our (Jolla way) or we are taking toys and are going to different closed sandbox to play. I find it hard to correlate that with lets talk about being more open. Lets not pre-judge. No one is pre-judging - my reaction was to Thomas Perl statement: alternative would be to have a private/downstream fork of Mer/Nemo and not contribute to Mer/Nemo - would that be better? So it sounded like we have two choices, accepting status quo (Jolla maintainership/ownership/domination or however the current state can be called) or that Jolla will abandon supporting open mer/nemo (creating private fork). Mer was designed to allow private forking from the beginning. I think you misunderstood me. There is nothing wrong with private forking - everybody does it, that's how open source works. I only didn't like the statement that sounded like a choice between keeping status quo (NemoMW taken over by Jolla with questionable collaboration quality like it is nowadays) and alternative that Jolla completely ends to support Mer/Nemo. It sounded a bit like a strong warning (accept this or else!). If you look at changelogs of packages on the device you'll notice that _all_ Jolla internal packages contain JB#xxx bug references, while almost none of the Nemo or Mer packages have those[3]. That's because we think it's wrong to reference a private bugtracker in a public git repository, and we have a policy that you should not do that. The few ones you see are either in HW adaptation related projects, or the developer made a mistake. What I've seen wasn't for sure in hardware adaption part and yes it was seen on Github, not in the package changelog. The problem is that when average person encounters that (in a project he is potentially interested) he instantly asks himself - what the hell is that #JB? In result it's very hard to contribute/engage to open source parts that have such comments, because you instantly get a feeling that there is some closed roadmap/list of issues to address/features to implement that you don't have access to (when approaching such open source part or subproject). It's a bit like you would play a poker and the opponents knows what cards are on stack and you don't. I bet you wouldn't be satisfied to play such game and especially betting money in it (hint: think that currency here is time/engagement). Now we start having the resources, so to improve our _internal_ release process we need start making use of the public bugzilla again, and make the public release process better. That's very good to hear! We admittedly mostly took over Nemo MW -- just because for a long time we were the only ones doing something. I think that's we were the only is an overstatement. I remember for example that Venemo contributed to lipstick and he is not a Jolla employee. For example I also wanted to engage myself last summer in Nemo MW, but when I've seen Nemo MW became a code (pull request) dump with no public roadmap I've realized it will be very hard (not impossible, but very hard) to engage in sth like that. It's still run in a way enabling things like building of Glacier UI, Glacier UI is something where open collaboration works. though, but basically the whole keep Nemo running on community OBS is overhead for us without us benefitting from it at the moment. We're just doing it because it should be done like this[2]. Well I wouldn't call it overhead, the more appropriate term in my opinion would be a fair trade - it gives you right to tell that SailfishOS is mostly open source and that Jolla contributes back to open source Nemo MW. In terms of marketing and attracting people it has a big value, that shouldn't be underestimated - otherwise Sailfish would be yet another mobile OS. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] Nemo MW to Mer
W dniu 05.04.2014 13:37, David Greaves pisze: So yes, Mer is *designed* to support internal builds and vendor-specific modifications. That's great as long as Mer is not one vendor and one company oriented. Sorry, but this sounds like, either it will be our (Jolla way) or we are taking toys and are going to different closed sandbox to play. I find it hard to correlate that with lets talk about being more open. Lets not pre-judge. No one is pre-judging - my reaction was to Thomas Perl statement: alternative would be to have a private/downstream fork of Mer/Nemo and not contribute to Mer/Nemo - would that be better? So it sounded like we have two choices, accepting status quo (Jolla maintainership/ownership/domination or however the current state can be called) or that Jolla will abandon supporting open mer/nemo (creating private fork). Improving this should be on the agenda. That too much discussion does happen internally is partly what drove the meeting proposal. Totally agree and it was much earlier seen already (remember when I've asked about bug triages when they've suddenly stopped in the summer?). Oher vendors already participate and yet more will observe Jolla's experiences before commiting. That's good, but I also recall there were more Mer based projects (e.g. Cordia) before than there are now. I would say it shows something. This meeting is not about that subject :) Exactly, but Carsten in his mail proposed to include that topic (Nemo+Mer merge) on that meeting. I think introducing too much topics at once on the first meeting might not be the best idea. I see it more as a series of regular meetings, we have at least two big topics as a start. 1. Improving collaboration in open parts of Sailfish OS 2. Chum and supporting open source projects for Sailfish (kind of Sailfish-extra) 3. Mer and Nemo MW - merge or not? That subject should/will be discussed on mer-general too. That's exactly what I've written, when Thomas Perl introduced new email subject - Nemo MW to Mer merge. The mail was interesting opinion, but that topic should be on mer-general. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] A kickoff meeting about SailfishOS, open source, collaboration, way forward @ 15 April, 15:00 UTC
W dniu 05.04.2014 17:18, Andrea Bernabei pisze: Let me express my view on the subject: It seems we all agree that Mer+Nemo merge is something which has to be discussed in a different meeting (and in a different place). +1 The main subject here is about making contributions easier (and more appealing?) for *SailfishOS* users. Not Nemo, not Mer, *SailfishOS* users, from what I understood. As we all know, Sailfish is based on Mer/Nemo, so it's obvious that the meeting will revolve around Mer and Nemo as well, since those are the parts of Sailfish which are opensource. Yes, the thing that is the topic of the meeting is improvement of the collaboration in open source parts of Sailfish, so that obviously includes Mer and Nemo MW, but is not limited to it (e.g. Sailfish Browser). This means, I don't think we have to bring any other vendor or whatever into this meeting. This is a Sailfish-related meeting. Once the points will be discussed, the action points which are related to Nemo/Mer will be discussed with said vendors. But I see that as something that happens *after* this meeting. I agree. I think vendors where mentioned in context of that other topic - Nemo/Mer merge or not. About the current opensource/community policy at Jolla: I have to agree with Filip when he says that those questions have been asked long time ago already, and that not much has been done to address the issue so far. From what I can tell Carsten is the only one (with Jolla hat) who really cares about improving the situation...it seems the rest of the company doesn't really do much except talking about doing it together and similar slogans. I totally agree with you I also see that Carsten is without doubt the person that wants to do sth about it as the current state of things needs improvement. I would say it's very good that he remembers his roots and cares about what he told in the past. Let me get that straight, I have been doing an internship at Jolla in a timeframe which included the launch of the device, I know that most (if not all) the sailors really believe in those values. They really want to do it together and make all those slogans come true. But...but...but...there's some real action missing in the picture. Exactly, things won't repair themselves, action is obviously needed. It seems everyone at Jolla wants to push Sailfish into the right direction but nobody is willing to reprioritize the important things in the company, to allow sailors to spend more time on this aspect of the product. I would say that's one of the most challenging parts of the product - to build a healthy community around it. Dealing with people is usually a complex topic without an easy solution in form of universal algorithm. Jolla will *always* be in a rush to keep up with features and bugfixes, Exactly, there will be product launches, conferences and other events in future that can be treated as excuse that is not yet good time for improving, but the time is now! Making collaboration friendly environment is a bit like maintaining a garden - this really needs some care and attention. Unfortunately, that garden was neglected and sadly the results are that already some people have left and stopped their support for Jolla and from what I've hear others are on the edge of leaving. It's really a last call for improvements to hold those people back. I also believe if things would go better, some of those who lost their hope might come back. Now, this said, I really appreciate the attempt to plan a meeting I think all people that care about Jolla appreciate the fact of meeting, because I do and see it as very good opportunity for Jolla and the community to start a new beginning. Let us not waste this chance to make a meaningful change. - *at least* one of the people in Jolla who can really take decisions in the company. I think that's what Jolla plans this time. We all know escalating community requests to high levels doesn't work most of the times. Yes. - a lot of time: there will be many people who want to express their opinion, having the managers (people from the point above) leave because we have another meeting in 5 minutes will just make things worse. I also hope that those decisive people/managers will stay this 1.5 hour at least and listen carefully. I'm also thinking about organizational side of the meeting. We need to prepare how it should look like as it cannot be a typical IRC conversation. I believe that we should split the whole topic to well defined, small issues/problems and focus on each of them (one problem at a time approach) and don't allow drifting away into other areas. Of course at the end, we need a complete picture of those issues and actions to be taken/solutions, I think it's also important to give opportunity for balanced discussion that would involve both Sailors and Islanders (that's my loose proposal of community side name). The thing I
Re: [SailfishDevel] When does Jolla give us an API?
W dniu 13.02.2014 07:26, Kalle Vahlman pisze: The other question here is will users prefer (or rather appreciate) the Jolla-screened apps in Harbour over the user-screened apps from OpenRepos. And again, what could be a better argument about allowing a certain API in Harbour than a handful of five star apps that use it in OpenRepos? Hi Kalle, well if Harbour QA would be doing so well why the flashlight app with some hidden data gathering passed it (Artems little provocation :))? That shows that Jolla QA doesn't have to be better than community QA in terms of user security and privacy. That also means that the better defense would be some security solution like Smack. I'm not a fan nor hater of OpenRepos - I never used it anywhere, but restrictive Harbour approach is also not the best way. So the thing is that either we need Harbour to change like Attila suggested or we need another solution. I think that we need something in between and not only for open source apps (I guess there are lot of people who would like to do commercial closed apps, but for now they have a choice between restrictive Harbour or non-restrictive OpenRepos. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] How to get the screen capture but don't block UI
W dniu 12.02.2014 10:23, David Greaves pisze: Correct David On 12/02/14 06:46, Andrey Kozhevnikov wrote: using Qt DBus classes and not use system() call? I haven't used system() call just in case someone thinks I did ;-) Anyway if someone wants to improve the app I for sure accept any good pull requests. The source is out there: https://github.com/fk-lx/SailshotMe/ Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] When does Jolla give us an API?
W dniu 12.02.2014 14:06, Attila Csipa pisze: My personal advice is - don't overthink it. The bottom line/driver is the user experience. Excellent post! The result was easy the predict - developers start to prefer OpenRepos than Harbour. Someone really overthinked the whole allowed API/libs story in Jolla Store. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] FOSDEM Community follow-up - open source app community
Hi Andrey: W dniu 04.02.2014 11:45, Andrey Kozhevnikov pisze: Blaming openrepos again? Are you serious? Thomas isn't blaming openrepos. He only proposes an alternative for hosting _open_ _source_ projects that don't fit into the Harbour. Google search allow to search any rpm binary without source code attached, download it and install, and some of found packages can be untrusted. You can answer: what the **? Who cares about google? Of course, we dont care if user did some actions for finding and installing bad package to phone. But when we created good place for storing packages with user comments, rating, repositories and great native client, and we are not stupid, we know about existence (*possible* existence) of malware, we keeping in mind future great improvements for openrepos and so, then you going to be crazy. Why? I think no one is going crazy here - I believe that using Chum won't hurt Openrepos. Openrepos will still exist and work. Anyway it's good to hear there are improvements planed to Openrepos! Because creator of openrepos is not you, because someone did this great place, and its not you? Well the thing Thomas is proposing isn't his own idea, actually Chum stuff comes from one of the sailors - lbt (David Greaves). Harbour and OBS restrictions are good? I dont think so, but i dont want to force you to take my opinion. I'm using openrepos and i am happy. But at the same time i am sad because of your madness about openrepos existence. Nobody is mad - I was on FOSDEM and on the round table and I haven't seen any madness from anyone, instead interesting discussion regarding topics such as security for example. Please stop this stupid openrepos blaming. If someone upload malware we will ban it, post information everywhere. But in my opinion it will never happen. We are NOT against FOSS, we are NOT malware/warez site. Stop writing lies and speculation about openrepos. Well nobody said that Openrepos is against FOSS - I'd recommend you to calm down and read his post once again. Accusing someone of lies won't help the discussion. Instead I would rather look forward hearing from you what are the plans for developement/improvements of Openrepos. Let's focus on positive sides of both solutions. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] Questions about not yet allowed APIs
W dniu 12.01.2014 05:43, Timur Kristóf pisze: Hi, I'd like to ask about status ETA about the following QML imports, ie. what's their current status (stability, maturity, etc) and when are we going to be able to use them in the harbour. import Qt.labs.settings 1.0 import QtGraphicalEffects 1.0 import QtFeedback 5.0 import QtDocGallery 5.0 import org.nemomobile.ngf 1.0 import org.nemomobile.notifications 1.0 It seems to me that there's a LOT of functionality which is not available without these APIs and this is a serious impairment to harbour apps. That's why I'm interested. There is much more that could should be allowed ... Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] Scriptlets in RPM hot allowed to Harbour
W dniu 12.01.2014 14:14, Mikael Hermansson pisze: To clarify... What I meant is app itself need no root. ofcourse user still need to pass root password to libssh to execute commands... well it sounds like a solution, but I would say it's a bit partisan type of thing. Anyway I would like to hear someone from Jolla on this topic from my last mail what they actually recommend. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] Is pragmatically taking a screenshot possible?
Hi James, you can also look at source code of my screenshot taking app: https://github.com/fk-lx/SailshotMe Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] Internationalization
W dniu 30.12.2013 13:56, Joona Petrell pisze: Hi Flaviano, Jolla is working on a collaborative translation tool. Hi Joona, big thanks for communicating that fact to us! Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] Remote Xterm/Wayland session possible?
W dniu 27.12.2013 11:40, Putze Sven pisze: Hi all, would it be possible to open a (SSH tunneled) Xterm or Wayland session with the phone? Is there enough technology in the Wayland stack on the phone? Usecase could be presentation on a beamer, recording of what's happening on the phone. How did the Jolla guys make their remote presentations? USB? Their remote presentations where done on N950. With new ones they were always recorded from other device/video camcoder. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] What about game development?
W dniu 26.12.2013 08:00, mehmet altıparmak pisze: Which game development frameworks does sailfish development environmen support? I think Veskuh in his talk on SmartDevCon mentioned that Cocos2d-x is or will be supported. Does it support OpenGl? Sailfish supports Open GL ES, even apps submitted to Harbour (Jolla Store QA) can use it. Allowed libraries (from Harbour FAQ): # OpenGL ES 1.1, 2.0 and EGL libEGL.so.1 libGLESv1_CM.so.1 libGLESv2.so.2 Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] together.jolla.com
W dniu 24.12.2013 18:10, a.gra...@gmail.com pisze: ... is open! Go there and contribute with ideas :) and report bugs ;) Happy Holidays to all list subscribers! Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] Is there any way to report a bug?
W dniu 18.12.2013 20:15, christopher.l...@thurweb.ch pisze: Hi Filip, Nils et al I think the second mailing list dedicated to reporting bugs would be a good first step, it fits with my suggestion of starting with a simple system / process and evolving from that. Well, I think that maybe we don't need that mailing list after all - a new press release: Co-creation platform to open this week Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] python development
W dniu 19.12.2013 21:46, David Jensen pisze: Nokia's original book on Meego featured, I think, Python as the development. I do not see this book on Amazon. However, almost none of the articles I have seen relating to Jolla mention Python. I assumed Nokia believed Python was an ideal language for an open system that was easily modifiable by others. I get the impression the language is C++. This is more difficult than Java and possibly also Objective C. How does Jolla expect their system to be adapted as open if the language developers have to deal with is C++, with Python a vague afterthought? You can already do Qt/QML + Python apps for Sailfish - check pyotherside (examples included) - https://github.com/nemomobile-packages/pyotherside Support in Harbour for PyOtherside apps is also coming soon(TM). In other words nothing prevents you to do Python apps for Sailfish OS. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] SailfishOS (Dutch) translations
W dniu 18.12.2013 16:37, Martin Kolman pisze: What about Transifex[1]? It seems to be the de-facto standard for community translations at the moment. There are also already other distributions using it for all their translation work, such as Fedora[2]. [1] https://www.transifex.com/ [2] https://fedora.transifex.com/ Transifex would be a good choice in terms of it's usability - quite good tool. Anyway from what I've seen this far Polish translation has some serious issues in few places on Sailfish. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] Is there any way to report a bug?
W dniu 18.12.2013 14:50, David Greaves pisze: Some people may recall the Maemo bugzillla was not a total success (!) in terms of communication and the current feeling is that it's not the right answer for Jolla. The fact that something hasn't worked well doesn't mean it won't work good in future. Maybe instead negating the idea of community bug tracker, let's seriously think what didn't work then (Maemo bug tracker) and how to overcome that so it would work now (Sailfish bug tracker). Otherwise someone could say*, that Sailfish won't succeed, because it is done by the same people who worked on Meego and Meego failed at Nokia. For more technical bugs we do have the Mer and Nemo bugzillas - but they really are for code and not end user issues like this. I personally suspect we'll need something like that for Sailfish development related bugs too but we don't want to put something official in place until we know we can provide the support you'd expect. Nemo bugzilla is mostly dead, except the Glacier UI related part. That would suggest that Nemo middelware does not have bugs, but strangely development is going on if you look at github nemo middelware parts ;) What happened to weekly bug triages? Maybe it's high time to think and talk seriously about co-creation now that it is _after_ launch. So, in summary, we are working on systems for this and we don't want to provide a half-baked solution which no-one will like - watch this space! Wait a second, isn't Sailfish OS in beta stage and already sold as part of product? So having that in mind it's hard to disagree with statement that half-baked solution is better than no solution. Maybe half-baked bug tracker would be much better than no bug tracker as it is now? Especially that as it was seen on this mailing list people have doubts if bugs they post here aren't omitted. Regards, Filip * - I see this kind of comments on some portals sometimes under news about Sailfish ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] Is there any way to report a bug?
W dniu 18.12.2013 18:55, christopher.l...@thurweb.ch pisze: Hi Filip Seconded. I also think that a less than perfect bug tracker would be better than non at all. Surely the primary purpose of this mailing list is Sailfish Development, but at the moment it is being flooded with bug reports that may be of interest to Developers @ Jolla, but are probably less interesting to developers outside Jolla. I think it would be better if we started with a very simple process / system, and let that evolve with time and experience, rather than waiting for a perfect all singing-all-dancing bug tracker that will probably never come at all. Yes, I am also all for iterating the whole thing rather than surprise, surprise what good we brought for you... ups, you don't like it? Nah, I'm sure you will like it sooner or later ... approach. One of the arguments mentioned by someone from Jolla on IRC was the community bugtracker will become quickly a mess and people will be even more frustrated than if there wouldn't be a bugtracker at all. In other words it's a path We (the company) know better what is best for you!. Please Jolla don't sail in that direction. Nils idea for another, separate mailing list to submit bugs as a temporary solution sounds good. Then we should probably continue discussing _in_the_open_ a real bugtracker solution. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] QCamera not found: yet again ....
W dniu 08.12.2013 14:48, christopher.l...@thurweb.ch pisze: In landedtorch.h I have #include QQuickItem #include QCamera In the .pro file I have: CONFIG += multimedia Any ideas? I am sure it something simple that I have missed ... #include QtMultimedia in landedtorch.h also and it should work. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] QCamera not found: yet again ....
W dniu 08.12.2013 14:48, christopher.l...@thurweb.ch pisze: In landedtorch.h I have #include QQuickItem #include QCamera In the .pro file I have: CONFIG += multimedia Any ideas? I am sure it something simple that I have missed ... also QT += multimedia Did it help? Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] Developing with SailfishOS - a short introduction
W dniu 07.12.2013 11:13, Putze Sven pisze: Hi all, just a little update. A downloadable pdf version can now be found at http://hardcodes.de/SailfishOS/Developing-with-SailfishOS.pdf. It is still far from complete but grows :-) I went from thinking about moving to another markup language to I will move. But I am still thinking about which one?. If you ask for a gut reaction, I would answer MultiMarkDown. Still not sure... Have a nice weekend! How did I miss your first post in this thread? Great idea of creating such document - things like that are really needed to attract new developers. Regards, Filip PS. Thanks for mentioning SmartDevCon ;) ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] where did the template sailfishapplication.cpp/h go?
W dniu 06.12.2013 11:58, Wim de Vries pisze: Hi, Just looking at the template and documentation of the latest SDK and found out that sailfishapplication.cpp and sailfishapplication.h were removed from the sources. I used to redefine them (using MyQQuickview etc.). Am I overlooking sth? Hi Wim, There were some changes in latest SDK. Both sailfishapplication.h and sailfishapplication.cpp were replaced. The intention was to simply things. Now standard template uses sailfishapp.h. You can find sailfishapp.h in your SDK path (it's not visible in your project) SailfishOS/mersdk/targets/SailfishOS-i486-x86/usr/include/sailfishapp/sailfishapp.h I think Thomas Perl can tell you more as he is the contact person for newest application templates. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
[SailfishDevel] unsupported QML plugins in Harbour
Hi, I've made that mistake that I've used org.nemomobile.dbus QML plugin in my app and that is unstable API so not allowed in Harbour. What is the recommended solution? Do I have to copy sources of that plugin into my own app project? Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] Linking to qwidget, or any other method to access the clipboard
W dniu 02.12.2013 13:06, Michael Demetriou pisze: unfortunately qmake still produces a Makefile with 90x90 after that and a restart of the IDE and both vm's Hi qwazix, I had the same problem yesterday. The solution that worked for me is the one by Artem Marchenko. So comment default CONFIG += sailfishapp and you won't get 90x90 icons in Makefile, but you will have to add some stuff manually. Look here: https://github.com/fk-lx/SailshotMe/blob/master/harbour-sailshotme.pro#L11-39 Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] Little bug in Silica Separator Component
W dniu 20.11.2013 23:00, Gabriel Boehme pisze: Hi sailors, the Silica documentation says you can set the the alignment property of the Separator Component, but it's not working. So I checked the Separator.qml file and there is no alignment. And maybe it could be clever to give it a default width. :) Hi Gabriel, I wrote about it on 22th September https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2013-September/000757.html Unfortunately other bugs in documentation I've mentioned at this mailing list didn't get fixed also. Don't even know who to ping about that ... Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] Harbor not accessible from Finland
W dniu 11.11.2013 17:43, Karl Granström pisze: Hi all, Just want to update on the situation with the Harbour. We were able to debug the big bug in last Friday and got it fixed. Today we ran the production tests and found one small bug still that we are fixing and we are doing our best to allow you to dock there asap. Thanks for openly communicating how situation looks like. Good luck on fixing the bug. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] Harbor not accessible from Finland
W dniu 09.11.2013 11:26, Chris Walker pisze: On Fri, 8 Nov 2013 21:49:35 +0200 Tone Kastlunger users.giulie...@gmail.com wrote: Never was so far, bad gateway all the time. anyone else experiencing the same? It's been like that since day one of the announcement here in the UK for me. So don't feel left out ;-) I can imagine how stressful (pressure created by big expectations) it is for people in Jolla trying to fix it and put it out running back again. So everyone a little bit more patience and understanding, I am sure harbour will be back again in very near future. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] If this list even used?
W dniu 30.09.2013 17:24, Marcin Mielniczuk pisze: Guess he doesn't get anything like me some time ago. Do you have an idea what was it in your case? I mean the reason why you didn't receive mails. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] SilicaWebView
W dniu 30.09.2013 18:58, Oleg Linkin pisze: Hi. Exmaple doesn't work with: LinkView.qml:7 SilicaWebView is not a type Well, there is no such component in Silica components, see documentation: https://sailfishos.org/sailfish-silica/sailfish-silica-all.html May be I need some special imports? How I can force it to work? You should use instead WebView (which is just a part of QtQuick): http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-5.1/qtwebkit/qml-qtwebkit3-webview.html Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] 2 Labels in ListView delegate in column
W dniu 29.09.2013 19:21, Oleg Linkin pisze: Hello. I want to have delegate with 2 labels: one above other. Top Label - title and bottom Label - tags. The botton label should be smaller then the top label. I've noticed in your code, that you have in first label: font.pixelSize: Theme.fontSizeMedium and in second label: font.pointSize: Theme.fontSizeExtraSmall so change font.pointSize to font.pixelSize in second label and it should work. So use Theme.fontSize* only with pixelSize as it has values in pixels not points. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] error about wayland
W dniu 24.09.2013 14:52, Wim de Vries pisze: Hi, Qt Creator 2.7.2 ubuntu 13.04 64bits Intel® Ivybridge Mobile App works fine but i get this error on the console: DeclarativeWindowAttached: unsupported platform: wayland Ignore it - it's normal in this case. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
[SailfishDevel] Some UI stuff etc.
Hello, while on Sailfish SDK installfest event in Bratislava yesterday I've met a guy who is working on an IVI UI/UX for one of the well known automotive brands (nevermind which). As Sailfish was something new to him he was very interested what this OS has to offer in terms of UX. Reception was generally positive, but he had few remarks. Anyway we found some things in the components gallery (don't remember if it was discussed here already) which can be probably improved/fixed. So this is hard to read (text in red area is almost unreadable): https://www.dropbox.com/s/n6hxcjpozc2x4p1/hard_to_see_what_is_actually_there.png Numbers on keypad missing: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yl0elu6bm0jadn5/no_numbers.png Old stuff, discussed many times, but again and again people who see the dialog for the first time, wonder why actually time is not in the center? Was there any particular reason for not putting it there? https://www.dropbox.com/s/77qfl38hp6m284y/time_in_center.png There were more remarks. I will try to explain them in next mail. Regards, Filip PS. By the way I remember previous SDK version (the one from February) and it seems to me that Opacity Ramp had some effect then. Here it does not seem to have any if changing values (or maybe I'm not noticing it). Btw. offset value at one point: https://www.dropbox.com/s/nypvh3h55dm7gw3/does_it_still_works.png ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] Notification During Voice Call
W dniu 03.08.2013 21:36, Josh Alner | Killer Mobile Software pisze: In meego(Harmattan) we had used APIs from #include CellularQt/SystemControl or #include systemcontrol.h to get notified during calls (voice calls). I'm not seeing any equivalent in SailfishOS. My guess is that on Sailfish you can get notified about incoming calls by oFono through D-bus. Look at this: https://github.com/nemomobile-packages/ofono/blob/master/ofono/doc/voicecall-api.txt Property State change to incoming is probably the thing you want to detect. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
[SailfishDevel] some inaccuracy on sailfishos wiki
https://sailfishos.org/wiki/Porting/Harmattan In section 'Application Porting Tutorials' Some of these tutorials are still targeted towards the Alpha SDK (which had Qt 4 and X11), so be aware that additional porting steps might be required starting from the Beta SDK (which has Qt 5 and Wayland) Both SDKs are called Alpha so the text on wiki should be updated. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
[SailfishDevel] [Announce] Educational project regarding Mer/Nemo and distributions based on them - Dolphinaric
Hello, As a person with academic background, who in the very old times (around 2007/2008) taught students about programming for Maemo 4 platforms with help of some imported N810's from Germany (yes, those weren't available in Poland at all) I thought that nowadays there are probably people connected with universities (lecturers, PhD students etc.) who would want to do the same, but with Mer/Nemo or solutions based on them like Sailfish and Jolla based phones. I also remember that preparing such lectures and scenarios of laboratories required quite some effort and digging through a lot of stuff on maemo.org, which was on one side good, but on the other side sometimes people from academia just don't have time for that in constant rush with other stuff. To address that problem I thought about creating open educational project whose aim would be preparing ready to use materials (like slide presentations, some scenarios for laboratories, code examples or tasks etc.) to teach about Mer/Nemo, Sailfish and others. In my opinion the stuff on Mer/Nemo wiki is really, really great, but probably not for average student, especially if he/she didn't have any experience with such kind of projects. Moreover big companies who are developing other platforms have usually some kind of academic programs providing this kind of materials on portals, even with some gamification elements to make learning more efficient and enjoyable. I don't even mention about those companies providing devices and other hardware stuff for laboratories usage. As a result it's much easier to make mobile programming courses on universities about platforms from big players like Google, Apple, Microsoft or Blackberry. I guess that determined people like me that want to teach about interesting alternatives such as Sailfish are in a small minority and it can be a real challenge to push this kind of topics into course program, especially with no arguments like ready to use materials, when convincing colleagues also involved in teaching process at such courses. In my opinion this is really a big issue that must be addressed sooner or later and benefits are quite obvious - the more students will know about Mer/Nemo the bigger chance that some of them might get involved in active way like writing apps or contributing to open source platforms such as Mer. Yes, in my opinion more people are needed in the community, because for now it mainly consists of people previously involved in Maemo or Meego (probably with N950 in their pockets) and there is lack of fresh air (when comparing with what Canonical is for example doing - attracting completely new people to their platform). I've set up a repo where I will try to prepare such materials (which I need to prepare anyway for the Fall semester, because I want to include things connected with Mer/Nemo/Sailfish into two courses at least). I'm looking forward to any help, contributions and ideas from people who are interested in this topic - that is not limited to lecturers, but also students and everyone who finds this matter interesting or important. By the way I've given the project a name Dolphinaric - yeah, dolphins are those clever and intelligent sea animals and the name was not used :) So the address to repo (not much yet there): https://github.com/Dolphinaric/dolphinaric_courses For people seeking a place for more direct way to discuss, there is also #dolphinaric IRC channel on Freenode. I would also like to set up a mailing list, to not make a mess here ;) So I'm looking for suggestions where to set up that (I tried to do that on Freelists.org, but did not receive any response from them yet). Best regards, Filip PS. I've posted this message on both mer-general and devel@lists.sailfishos.org mailing list, but I STRONGLY SUGGEST to discuss it on mer-general mailing list only to not cause chaos and cross postings (I hope soon dedicated mailing list will be set up). ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] Sailfish Beta SDK with Qt5
W dniu 15.07.2013 08:21, Jarko Vihriala pisze: Hello, The official message in Dev Days was This summer and I can tell you it's soon ready to ship! Thanks for the answer. Regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
Re: [SailfishDevel] Sailfish Beta SDK with Qt5
W dniu 18.07.2013 16:10, Michael Hall pisze: Is there a pre-release/beta/daily available of the new SDK? Hints are this summer and soon ;) Best regards, Filip ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list
