Re: Audio in X11
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 05:39 am, Warren Turkal wrote: Fred Heitkamp wrote: I was wondering. Was there ever an effort to make a network independent audio extension for X11? (forgive my terminology if it's wrong.) For example, if I am logged on from a remote terminal and want to play an MP3 from the distant machine on the remote terminal, is this possible? Sorry if this is a FAQ, but I didn't see one while googling. Arts is supposedly network transparent. OK: MAS, Arts, Jack, Enlightenment Sound Daemon. Is there a master architecture for how this fits together? How do we get to a universal solution? What's missing and what'd duplicated? Brad -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/bVJjW6pHgIdAuOMRAt6KAJ0WMBY9TqZEGKn8z7ZP+oLevMLCcgCghR9l yrHOV9/k5VTbuhelGZhhluc= =Aou7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Audio in X11
An audio server need not be designed to add latency (beyond that of the network itself, of course). With current networks, this is very small, down to a few samples. Existence proof is the AF audio server we did 10 years ago, in which the server design itself did not enforce any latency: if data arrived at the AF server before the sample had been played (and the hardware permitted), it performed cut-through and updated the samples immediately. - Jim On Wed, 2003-09-10 at 17:54, Ross Vandegrift wrote: On Wed, Sep 10, 2003 at 11:09:54AM -0400, Jim Gettys wrote: The other promising work besides MAS is an audio server project called Jack. It is not clear it currently provides network transparency, but it does boast low latency (required for telephony, teleconferencing and gaming applications). No, jack is intended for apps with much stricter performance requirements - low latency, sample synchronization, and realtime transport. These are pretty critical for pro audio work - recording, production, soundtracking, overdubs, etc. It's very doubtful it will ever work over conventional networks - timing is just too critical to jack. Now, a specially designed network with ADAT synchronization could work, but I doubt anyone would want to port X11 to such a transport... ::-) -- Jim Gettys [EMAIL PROTECTED] HP Labs, Cambridge Research Laboratory ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Audio in X11
There have been several attempts. The latest one, currently sponsored by X.org, is MAS - http://www.mediaapplicationserver.net/ -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc.- Sun Software Group User Experience Engineering: G11N: X Window System Fred Heitkamp wrote: I was wondering. Was there ever an effort to make a network independent audio extension for X11? (forgive my terminology if it's wrong.) For example, if I am logged on from a remote terminal and want to play an MP3 from the distant machine on the remote terminal, is this possible? Sorry if this is a FAQ, but I didn't see one while googling. Fred Error Loading Explorer.exe You must reinstall Windows. ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Audio in X11
The other promising work besides MAS is an audio server project called Jack. It is not clear it currently provides network transparency, but it does boast low latency (required for telephony, teleconferencing and gaming applications). The other issue is getting good synchronization with the X server. While the X server has had the XSync extension for a long time, the operating system hooks to allow X to synchronize with external events (e.g. vertical sync, sample clock of audio streams, etc) have been absent in open source systems. XSync was developed in the days of engineering workstations 10 years ago, and was debugged with such kernel support. Recently Alan Cox has done some work for Linux support of vertical retrace (and potentially audio sources) to provide the needed kernel hooks for the X server. So a small project for someone with time is now to hook up XSync with that kernel support and/or implement similar support for other open source systems. - Jim On Wed, 2003-09-10 at 10:50, Alan Coopersmith wrote: There have been several attempts. The latest one, currently sponsored by X.org, is MAS - http://www.mediaapplicationserver.net/ -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc.- Sun Software Group User Experience Engineering: G11N: X Window System Fred Heitkamp wrote: I was wondering. Was there ever an effort to make a network independent audio extension for X11? (forgive my terminology if it's wrong.) For example, if I am logged on from a remote terminal and want to play an MP3 from the distant machine on the remote terminal, is this possible? Sorry if this is a FAQ, but I didn't see one while googling. Fred Error Loading Explorer.exe You must reinstall Windows. ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- Jim Gettys [EMAIL PROTECTED] HP Labs, Cambridge Research Laboratory ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Audio in X11
On Wed, Sep 10, 2003 at 05:41:23PM +0200, Michel Dänzer wrote: On Wed, 2003-09-10 at 17:09, Jim Gettys wrote: While the X server has had the XSync extension for a long time, the operating system hooks to allow X to synchronize with external events (e.g. vertical sync, sample clock of audio streams, etc) have been absent in open source systems. XSync was developed in the days of engineering workstations 10 years ago, and was debugged with such kernel support. FWIW, the DRM has provided synchronization to the vertical refresh for a while. Indeed. But it's presented through the OpenGL interface, whereas using XSync would allow non-OpenGL apps to use this extension and get that facility. Alan. ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Audio in X11
On Wed, 2003-09-10 at 17:55, Alan Hourihane wrote: On Wed, Sep 10, 2003 at 05:41:23PM +0200, Michel Dnzer wrote: On Wed, 2003-09-10 at 17:09, Jim Gettys wrote: While the X server has had the XSync extension for a long time, the operating system hooks to allow X to synchronize with external events (e.g. vertical sync, sample clock of audio streams, etc) have been absent in open source systems. XSync was developed in the days of engineering workstations 10 years ago, and was debugged with such kernel support. FWIW, the DRM has provided synchronization to the vertical refresh for a while. Indeed. But it's presented through the OpenGL interface, whereas using XSync would allow non-OpenGL apps to use this extension and get that facility. No need for OpenGL, it's simply an ioctl for the DRM device. It wonly works when the DRI is enabled obviously. -- Earthling Michel Dnzer \ Debian (powerpc), XFree86 and DRI developer Software libre enthusiast \ http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=daenzer ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Audio in X11
On Wed, Sep 10, 2003 at 06:05:42PM +0200, Michel Dänzer wrote: On Wed, 2003-09-10 at 17:55, Alan Hourihane wrote: On Wed, Sep 10, 2003 at 05:41:23PM +0200, Michel Dänzer wrote: On Wed, 2003-09-10 at 17:09, Jim Gettys wrote: While the X server has had the XSync extension for a long time, the operating system hooks to allow X to synchronize with external events (e.g. vertical sync, sample clock of audio streams, etc) have been absent in open source systems. XSync was developed in the days of engineering workstations 10 years ago, and was debugged with such kernel support. FWIW, the DRM has provided synchronization to the vertical refresh for a while. Indeed. But it's presented through the OpenGL interface, whereas using XSync would allow non-OpenGL apps to use this extension and get that facility. No need for OpenGL, it's simply an ioctl for the DRM device. It wonly works when the DRI is enabled obviously. O.k. But then that's not very portable - in this instance we'd have to get the user space app to talk directly to the DRM. Ugh! In the current form, a user app uses OpenGL's extension to do it in a portable form. XSync is the same portable form for X only apps. Alan. ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Audio in X11
On Wed, 2003-09-10 at 18:11, Alan Hourihane wrote: On Wed, Sep 10, 2003 at 06:05:42PM +0200, Michel Dnzer wrote: On Wed, 2003-09-10 at 17:55, Alan Hourihane wrote: On Wed, Sep 10, 2003 at 05:41:23PM +0200, Michel Dnzer wrote: On Wed, 2003-09-10 at 17:09, Jim Gettys wrote: While the X server has had the XSync extension for a long time, the operating system hooks to allow X to synchronize with external events (e.g. vertical sync, sample clock of audio streams, etc) have been absent in open source systems. XSync was developed in the days of engineering workstations 10 years ago, and was debugged with such kernel support. FWIW, the DRM has provided synchronization to the vertical refresh for a while. Indeed. But it's presented through the OpenGL interface, whereas using XSync would allow non-OpenGL apps to use this extension and get that facility. No need for OpenGL, it's simply an ioctl for the DRM device. It wonly works when the DRI is enabled obviously. O.k. But then that's not very portable - in this instance we'd have to get the user space app to talk directly to the DRM. Ugh! Really? I'd think only the server would use the device, if the clients did, it would be the same problem regardless of the underlying mechanism, wouldn't it? (I'm talking about using it for XSync, in case that wasn't clear; an abstraction library for the various methods of vertical refresh synchronization might also be useful though) -- Earthling Michel Dnzer \ Debian (powerpc), XFree86 and DRI developer Software libre enthusiast \ http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=daenzer ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Audio in X11
On Wed, Sep 10, 2003 at 06:24:13PM +0200, Michel Dänzer wrote: On Wed, 2003-09-10 at 18:11, Alan Hourihane wrote: On Wed, Sep 10, 2003 at 06:05:42PM +0200, Michel Dänzer wrote: On Wed, 2003-09-10 at 17:55, Alan Hourihane wrote: On Wed, Sep 10, 2003 at 05:41:23PM +0200, Michel Dänzer wrote: On Wed, 2003-09-10 at 17:09, Jim Gettys wrote: While the X server has had the XSync extension for a long time, the operating system hooks to allow X to synchronize with external events (e.g. vertical sync, sample clock of audio streams, etc) have been absent in open source systems. XSync was developed in the days of engineering workstations 10 years ago, and was debugged with such kernel support. FWIW, the DRM has provided synchronization to the vertical refresh for a while. Indeed. But it's presented through the OpenGL interface, whereas using XSync would allow non-OpenGL apps to use this extension and get that facility. No need for OpenGL, it's simply an ioctl for the DRM device. It wonly works when the DRI is enabled obviously. O.k. But then that's not very portable - in this instance we'd have to get the user space app to talk directly to the DRM. Ugh! Really? I'd think only the server would use the device, if the clients did, it would be the same problem regardless of the underlying mechanism, wouldn't it? (I'm talking about using it for XSync, in case that wasn't clear; an abstraction library for the various methods of vertical refresh synchronization might also be useful though) It wasn't clear. Alan. ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Audio in X11
Fred Heitkamp wrote: I was wondering. Was there ever an effort to make a network independent audio extension for X11? (forgive my terminology if it's wrong.) For example, if I am logged on from a remote terminal and want to play an MP3 from the distant machine on the remote terminal, is this possible? Sorry if this is a FAQ, but I didn't see one while googling. Arts is supposedly network transparent. -- President, GOLUM, Inc. http://www.golum.org ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Audio in X11
On Wed, Sep 10, 2003 at 11:09:54AM -0400, Jim Gettys wrote: The other promising work besides MAS is an audio server project called Jack. It is not clear it currently provides network transparency, but it does boast low latency (required for telephony, teleconferencing and gaming applications). No, jack is intended for apps with much stricter performance requirements - low latency, sample synchronization, and realtime transport. These are pretty critical for pro audio work - recording, production, soundtracking, overdubs, etc. It's very doubtful it will ever work over conventional networks - timing is just too critical to jack. Now, a specially designed network with ADAT synchronization could work, but I doubt anyone would want to port X11 to such a transport... ::-) -- Ross Vandegrift [EMAIL PROTECTED] A Pope has a Water Cannon. It is a Water Cannon. He fires Holy-Water from it.It is a Holy-Water Cannon. He Blesses it. It is a Holy Holy-Water Cannon. He Blesses the Hell out of it. It is a Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon. He has it pierced.It is a Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon. He makes it official. It is a Canon Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon. Batman and Robin arrive. He shoots them. ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
