RE: [DDN] Microsoft: Open source 'not reliable or dependable'

2006-05-23 Thread Executive Director
 That said, I do wish Microsoft luck in releasing anything soon, and I
certainly hope that whatever they release doesn't permit the continued
plague of flaws and vulnerabilities that the general population of the world
has become familiar with. 

This opinion of course ignores the fact that that there are more
vulnerabilities in Linux/Unix than in Windows.

The US Government has reported that fewer vulnerabilities were found in
Windows than in Linux/Unix operating systems in 2005.
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/0,39020330,39245873,00.htm

Opinions need to be supported to have any value. When you set personal bias
aside, facts are a simple google away.

Mike


Michael F. Pitsch
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Taran Rampersad
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 2:26 PM
To: The Digital Divide Network discussion group
Subject: Re: [DDN] Microsoft: Open source 'not reliable or dependable'

Fouad Riaz Bajwa wrote:
 Microsoft: Open source 'not reliable or dependable'
 View the complete story at: 
 http://news.com.com/Microsoft+Open+source+not+reliable+or+dependable/2
 100-73
 44_3-6074237.html?tag=nefd.pulse

 A senior Microsoft executive told a BBC documentary that people should 
 use commercial software if they're looking for stability.
Yeah, it's the same game... it's a game of influence, of marketing, and it
works fairly well. But what the Microsoft executive needs to figure out is
the difference between commercial and non-commercial software, which is a
major faux-pas from an esteemed member of the software marketing community.
I say marketing because it's an executive, and not an engineer who actually
has something to do with the code.

There are many commercial open source/[free software] applications out
there. Linux, Apache, BSD... the difference between commercial and
non-commercial is about *selling*, not about software licenses. 
Therefore I stand on a pretty strong foundation when I say that the
Microsoft Executive in question is either willfully misleading or
incompetent or ignorant, or a synergistic combination of all three.

Now, had he said that FOSS isn't stable he would be expressing an opinion.
What he has done is made a stronger case for FOSS commercial products, for
the people out there who know the difference between commercial and
non-commercial. I believe that this includes everyone on this list.

That said, I do wish Microsoft luck in releasing anything soon, and I
certainly hope that whatever they release doesn't permit the continued
plague of flaws and vulnerabilities that the general population of the world
has become familiar with. And here's where I cross the line and express an
unsubstantiated opinion: Perhaps they should use the Blue Screen of Death as
a marketing ploy, since it seems that the more some people see it, the more
often they reinstall Windows. :-)

--
Taran Rampersad
Presently in: San Fernando, Trinidad and Tobago [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Looking for contracts/work!
http://www.knowprose.com/node/9786

New!: http://www.OpenDepth.com
http://www.knowprose.com
http://www.digitaldivide.net/profile/Taran

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[DDN] nonprofits and the tech divide

2006-05-23 Thread J Cravens
Part of bridging the digital divide, IMO, has more to do with 
building capacities of people and organizations regarding using 
technology than actually providing connectivity. And that includes 
nonprofits (NPOs) and non-governmental organizations (NGOs). But just 
giving an organization Net access does not, IMO, a tech-savvy, 
well-connected organization make. And as NPOs and NGOs are 
mission-driven (rather than profit-driven), all of their activities 
need to be tied directly and obviously to their mission statements, 
including their use of networking/online technology.


To help NPOs and NGOs think about the networking tech standards they 
should pursue, and possible goals for the future, I've drafted an 
assessment of the states of maturity for a nonprofit organization's 
use of networking/online technologies. Feedback about these stages 
would be very welcomed.


http://www.coyotecommunications.com/outreach/online3.html


--

Ms. Jayne Cravens MSc
Bonn, Germany

Services for Mission-Based Orgs
www.coyotecommunications.com

International  Development Studies  Work
www.coyotecommunications.com/development

Contact me
www.coyotecommunications.com/contact.html

www.ivisit.com id: jcravens.4947


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Re: [DDN] Microsoft: Open source 'not reliable or dependable'

2006-05-23 Thread Dave A. Chakrabarti
Mike,

I find this hard to believe, given how frequently Windows has to patch
vulnerabilities. Last year their patches often resulted in computers
being rendered unuseable. I had a client who could no longer access her
Windows login screen, requiring an extensive support session at her home
to fix. I assumed it was a virus, but found out later it was a Windows
patch, automatically downloaded and installed (she had automatic updates
turned on, as Microsoft recommends). I'm also under the impression that
most of the websites in the world are currently hosted on open source
platforms (Apache). These facts are also a simple Google away.

If open source products truly appeared more secure only because so few
people are using it on the desktop, then it would also appear
incredibly insecure in the corporate server environment, where it
actually makes up a more significant chunk of the market than Microsoft
products. Websites would be constantly going down because of Apache
vulnerabilities, and we'd all be running to Microsoft for salvation.

Facts can be distorted in any direction. The media exists to sell a
product (their writing) and will cater to their target audience. Media
outlets that are pro- open source will tell you Linux is incredibly user
friendly, MS-friendly organizations will tell you that open source is
less stable, less commercially reliable, has no support, etc. I'd take
neither at face value. In my own use, I've found that some open source
operating systems make it incredibly difficult to do things that I'm
used to Windows doing automatically (mounting a hard drive) until you
learn how the system expects you to work; I also found that some, like
Debian, have application installation processes that are *much* more
advanced and user-friendly than anything in Windows. As a website
developer, I've come to prefer open source content management systems
for their flexibility and their community support, which I find more
robust than proprietary solutions.

In addition, from the article you linked:

CERT's report did not include figures for how quickly vulnerabilities
are patched once they are discovered. According to security firm
Secunia, 124 of its security advisories relate to flaws in Windows XP
Professional, of which 29 are unpatched — which gives it a lands
Microsoft's operating system with a Highly Critical security rating.

In contrast, Red Hat 9 is affected by 99 Secunia warnings, but only one
of these flaws has not been patched by Red Hat. SuSE Linux Enterprise
Server 9 is covered in 91 advisories, but every one has been patched by
the vendor. Both products get a 'Not Critical' rating.

This seems to support Taran's comment that Windows needs to get its act
together if it wants to deliver a more serious contender. From
everything I've heard, VISTA is bloated enough to wipe out any of the
older systems that the community technology world thrives on, which
isn't a good sign. The fact that I can install current versions of open
source operating systems on much older hardware and still produce
useable machines makes Windows seem very inflexible/unscaleable by
comparison.

  Dave.

---
Dave A. Chakrabarti
Projects Coordinator
CTCNet Chicago
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(708) 919 1026
---




Executive Director wrote:
  That said, I do wish Microsoft luck in releasing anything soon, and I
 certainly hope that whatever they release doesn't permit the continued
 plague of flaws and vulnerabilities that the general population of the world
 has become familiar with. 
 
 This opinion of course ignores the fact that that there are more
 vulnerabilities in Linux/Unix than in Windows.
 
 The US Government has reported that fewer vulnerabilities were found in
 Windows than in Linux/Unix operating systems in 2005.
 http://news.zdnet.co.uk/0,39020330,39245873,00.htm
 
 Opinions need to be supported to have any value. When you set personal bias
 aside, facts are a simple google away.
 
 Mike
 
 
 Michael F. Pitsch
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Taran Rampersad
 Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 2:26 PM
 To: The Digital Divide Network discussion group
 Subject: Re: [DDN] Microsoft: Open source 'not reliable or dependable'
 
 Fouad Riaz Bajwa wrote:
 Microsoft: Open source 'not reliable or dependable'
 View the complete story at: 
 http://news.com.com/Microsoft+Open+source+not+reliable+or+dependable/2
 100-73
 44_3-6074237.html?tag=nefd.pulse

 A senior Microsoft executive told a BBC documentary that people should 
 use commercial software if they're looking for stability.
 Yeah, it's the same game... it's a game of influence, of marketing, and it
 works fairly well. But what the Microsoft executive needs to figure out is
 the difference between commercial and non-commercial software, which is a
 major faux-pas from an esteemed member of the software marketing community.
 I say marketing because it's an executive, 

Re: [DDN] Microsoft: Open source 'not reliable or dependable'

2006-05-23 Thread Taran Rampersad

Executive Director wrote:

 That said, I do wish Microsoft luck in releasing anything soon, and I
certainly hope that whatever they release doesn't permit the continued
plague of flaws and vulnerabilities that the general population of the world
has become familiar with. 
  

I want you to reread what you quoted. And below, I shall refer to it.

This opinion of course ignores the fact that that there are more
vulnerabilities in Linux/Unix than in Windows.

The US Government has reported that fewer vulnerabilities were found in
Windows than in Linux/Unix operating systems in 2005.
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/0,39020330,39245873,00.htm
  

Read the top line:
US-CERT found more vulnerabilities in Linux and Unix systems than in 
Windows in 2005, but that doesn't mean Windows is more secure

Opinions need to be supported to have any value. When you set personal bias
aside, facts are a simple google away.
  
And yet selective reading remains a problem. Perhaps you could google 
which flaws took longer than 3 days to fix for either operating system?


The beauty of Linux, in this case, is that it is easier to identify 
vulnerabilities and flaws before they are exploited. Not so with 
Windows. You'll also note that when I expressed my opinion that I made a 
comparison. However, if you really want me to roll my sleeves up, I can 
tack on the Microsoft Internet Explorer bugs/vulnerabilities, as well as 
Microsoft Outlook Express - since they too are rolled into the operating 
system. Statistics are subjective. We can both play with those numbers. 
CERT treats these as separate issues, but Microsoft doesn't (despite 
legal cases around the world).


Certainly, the facts are just a google away. Perhaps you could google 
how many Linux users were and continue to be adversely affected by flaws 
as compared to Windows users? I'd love to see what information you turn up.


Now, we can have an operating system war along these lines if this is 
what you wish. That was not my intent. I, as a registered user of a 
Microsoft Product (check the header on this message) am stating that 
Microsoft should be working toward fixing it's problems. I did not say 
that Linux was better or worse in that regard. You'll be hard pressed to 
see me making statements without a basis in fact, so perhaps you read 
what you wish to. What I did say is what you quoted above - which wasn't 
related to any other operating system. That said, please help Microsoft 
patch Windows.


Oh. Sorry. You can't. Unless you work for Microsoft... do you? If you do 
work for Microsoft, I have a slew of questions for you which you should 
be able to handle well. This 'we look good by making others look bad' 
silliness has to stop somewhere. The criticisms I leveled at Microsoft 
were independent of Linux.


All of that said, here's my comparison now that you have opened the 
door: If CERT can find more vulnerabilities in Linux, I count that as a 
success for Linux. That means things that Linux can fix things 
proactively; which the Linux community has been doing, as opposed to 
Microsoft's rendition of 'Oops, I did it again' after the flaw is 
already exploited. So another thing you can research is how many 
exploits for Windows were already being exploited before there were CERT 
advisories.


As a licensed user of Microsoft, I reserve the right to criticize 
Microsoft. And as a registered user of Linux, I will do the same of 
Linux - as I do of any open source/free software product. If you choose 
to defend your choice based on what you find on Google, take a look here:

http://www.google.tt/search?hl=ensafe=offq=%22operating+system%22btnG=Search

Good day, and happy Googling! :-)

--
Taran Rampersad
Presently in: San Fernando, Trinidad and Tobago
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Looking for contracts/work!
http://www.knowprose.com/node/9786

New!: http://www.OpenDepth.com
http://www.knowprose.com
http://www.digitaldivide.net/profile/Taran

Pictures: http://www.flickr.com/photos/knowprose/

Criticize by creating. — Michelangelo

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RE: [DDN] DDN web community approaching the 10,000 member mark

2006-05-23 Thread Don Cameron
An amazing milestone in this world of competing forums demonstrating the
depth of interest in DDN issues - very well done Andy!

Don Cameron




Andy Carvin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

Phil Shapiro wrote:
 hi Digital Divide Network community -
 
 over the weekend, the DDN web site registered its 9,775th person 
 --  Dr.S.S.D. Pandey.
 
   see http://digitaldivide.net/profile/ssdpandey
 
that's some achievement to have gathered that many people 
 together in less than 2 years.  (the DDN web site officially launched 
 in january, 2005, if memory serves.)  kudos to andy carvin, cedar 
 pruitt and all the current DDN members for this accomplishment.

Thanks, Phil... The current version of the site launched in December 2004.
At that point we actually had over 3,000 members. This included everyone who
was an active member of this discussion group, going back to late 1999, as
well as everyone who had registered to our old website's newsletter. So
effectively, we've tripled our membership in less than 18 months.

 
 now that we're within striking range of the 10,000 member 
 mark, thanks for thinking about which colleagues you know to invite 
 onto the site.  i can think of 3 people i recently met who would find 
 this community interesting and valuable. i'll be inviting all 3 to join.
 

Phil beat me to it, but I was going to suggest something similar. As DDN
makes its transition from EDC to TakingITGlobal.org, it would be great if we
could start off with a bang and reach the 10,000 member level. So for all of
you who blog or participate in other email lists, I'd encourage you to
invite people to join DDN. As always, it's free and open to the public. DDN
membership allows you to participate in this forum, as well as have your own
blog or online community on the DDN website. Here's the form to join the
site:

http://www.digitaldivide.net/members/add.php

Please be sure to tell people that joining DDN is joining an online
community, and this includes having a personal profile on the website. 
You can control how much info you show publicly, but people should know
ahead of time, because lately I've been surprised by how many people have
emailed me and asked to have their accounts canceled because they didn't
want their name appearing anywhere on a website.

Anyway, I hope we'll reach the 10,000 member mark very soon. Maybe we could
even place bets on what day we'll reach the milestone. :-)

andy

--
--
Andy Carvin
acarvin (at) edc . org
andycarvin (at) yahoo . com

http://www.andycarvin.com
http://www.digitaldivide.net
http://www.pbs.org/learningnow
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RE: [DDN] Microsoft: Open source 'not reliable or dependable'

2006-05-23 Thread Executive Director
He said this:
  This opinion of course ignores the fact that that there are more
vulnerabilities in Linux/Unix than in Windows.

I said this:
This opinion of course ignores the fact that that there are more
vulnerabilities in Linux/Unix than in Windows.

The US Government has reported that fewer vulnerabilities were found in
Windows than in Linux/Unix operating systems in 2005.
 http://news.zdnet.co.uk/0,39020330,39245873,00.htm
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/0,39020330,39245873,00.htm

And goes on to say:
Linux/Unix-based operating systems - a set that includes Mac OS X, as well
as the various Linux distributions and flavours of Unix - had over twice as
many vulnerabilities as Windows, according to the United States Computer
Emergency Readiness Team (US-CERT), which is part of the US Department of
Homeland Security.

Change the subject, (security) confuse and obscure the issue all you like,
(applications) but it doesn't change simple facts above.

And obviously the info below deals with only a portion of those twice as
many vulnerabilities.

Also, the author of the letter did not mention the report by a security
firm further down the page which stated that of the 124 security advisories
in Windows XP that 29 remain unpatched.  And of the commercial Linux vendors
that are affected by the same level of security advisories, Red Hat had
patched 98 of 99, and SuSE had patched 91 of 91.

Forrester Research Inc. released a report last spring measuring days of
risk, the percentage of the vulnerabilities actually patched and the
percentage of the vulnerabilities rated as high by the U.S. government's
National Institute for Standards and Technology's ICAT project. 

Forrester, which is based in Cambridge, Mass., found that Microsoft did the
best job of releasing patches quickly and making a thorough effort at
patching all vulnerabilities.
http://searchwindowssecurity.techtarget.com/tip/1,289483,sid45_gci1120422,0
0.htm
http://searchwindowssecurity.techtarget.com/tip/1,289483,sid45_gci1120422,00
.htm

Personal bias is an powerful thing, but it does not allow you to wish things
to become true.


Mike

Michael F. Pitsch
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon maddog Hall
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:41 AM
To: The Digital Divide Network discussion group
Subject: Re: [DDN] Microsoft: Open source 'not reliable or dependable'


[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 Opinions need to be supported to have any value. When you set personal
 bias aside, facts are a simple google away.

Indeed.  The author of this letter did not include the entire sub-title of
the
article:

US-CERT found more vulnerabilities in Linux and Unix systems than in
Windows in 2005, but that doesn't mean Windows is more secure.

and it would be of interest as to what the study considers to be a Linux
distribution, which normally contains multiple mail carriers, multiple web
browsers, multiple office packages, all of which may have a vulnerability
but may not be applicable in a given customer's environment; versus the
Windows operating system that is basically useless as it comes, but has
812 vulnerabilities.

By the time you add Microsoft Office and various other applications to bring
the Microsoft platform to the same functionality level as Linux, you might
find that Microsoft has as many or more vulnerabilities.

Also, the author of the letter did not mention the report by a security firm
further down the page which stated that of the 124 security advisories in
Windows XP that 29 remain unpatched.  And of the commercial Linux vendors
that are affected by the same level of security advisories, Red Hat had
patched
98 of 99, and SuSE had patched 91 of 91.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 Opinions need to be supported to have any value. When you set personal
 bias aside, facts are a simple google away.

Yes indeed.   Sometimes facts take a little reading and thinking too.

md
--
Jon maddog Hall
Executive Director   Linux International(R)
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 80 Amherst St.
Voice: +1.603.672.4557   Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A.
WWW: http://www.li.org

Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association

(R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries.
(R)Linux International is a registered trademark in the USA used pursuant
   to a license from Linux Mark Institute, authorized licensor of Linus
   Torvalds, owner of the Linux trademark on a worldwide basis (R)UNIX is a
registered trademark of The Open Group in the USA and other
   countries.

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RE: [DDN] Microsoft: Open source 'not reliable or dependable'

2006-05-23 Thread Executive Director
Claude,
But this discussion is simply about a misstatement of facts. 
I have read, interpreted and reported the facts correctly.
I would thank you to not confuse or change the issue at hand.

Mike

 Michael F. Pitsch
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Claude Almansi
(BW)
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 12:25 PM
To: The Digital Divide Network discussion group
Subject: Re: [DDN] Microsoft: Open source 'not reliable or dependable'

Executive Director wrote:
  That said, I do wish Microsoft luck in releasing anything soon, and 
 I certainly hope that whatever they release doesn't permit the 
 continued plague of flaws and vulnerabilities that the general 
 population of the world has become familiar with. 
 
 This opinion of course ignores the fact that that there are more 
 vulnerabilities in Linux/Unix than in Windows.
 
 The US Government has reported that fewer vulnerabilities were found 
 in Windows than in Linux/Unix operating systems in 2005.
 http://news.zdnet.co.uk/0,39020330,39245873,00.htm

Thanks for the very interesting article, Mike. Quoting from it:

  In the Windows vs Unix debate, the number of vulnerabilities is less
relevant than the amount that are turned into successful attacks. We see far
more successful attacks against Windows, because it's the most common
environment, Greg Day, security analyst at McAfee, told ZDNet UK.

As Linux becomes more common, we'll see more attacks against it, Day
added.

McAfee recommended firms look more at the probability of attack, rather than
whether an attack is possible. 

The info about the speed with which vulnerabilities are respectively patched
for Windows and for Linux/Unix is also revealing

 
 Opinions need to be supported to have any value. When you set personal 
 bias aside, facts are a simple google away.
 
 (...)
 

Mmm, I'd change that into ... facts are a simple google *and a careful
reading of what you googled* away.

Besides - but there I'll let the tech-competent people confirm or infirm
  what follows - one problem with Windows, if I understood correctly, is
that software applications shoot roots in the system deeper than they do
with Unix/Linux. Hence the big number of security alerts about Explorer,
Outlook Express, but even about Word, like this one for instance:

  Microsoft Security Advisory (919637)
Vulnerability in Word Could Allow Remote Code Execution
Published: May 22, 2006
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/advisory/919637.mspx

(...) What causes the vulnerability?
When a user opens a specially crafted Word file using a malformed object
pointer, it may corrupt system memory in such a way that an attacker could
execute arbitrary code. (...)

The patch will only be released on June 13. Maybe if Microsoft was a mite
more thorough in checking software before releasing it as stable 
version, and a mite faster in providing patches, they wouldn't have to be

  concerned that this new report of a vulnerability in Word was not
disclosed responsibly, potentially putting computer users at risk. We
continue to encourage responsible disclosure of vulnerabilities. We believe
the commonly accepted practice of reporting vulnerabilities directly to a
vendor serves everyone's best interests. This practice helps to ensure that
customers receive comprehensive, high-quality updates for security
vulnerabilities without exposure to malicious attackers while the update is
being developed.

So, warning users when the vulnerability has already been not only
discovered, but exploited, is what puts users at risk, according to
Microsoft..


Best

Claude

Claude Almansi
Castione, Switzerland
www.adisi.ch






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RE: [DDN] Microsoft: Open source 'not reliable or dependable'

2006-05-23 Thread Don Cameron
What fascinates more than anything else in the ongoing Linux -v- Windows
debate is the importance placed on potential code exploits over and above
anything and everything else of consideration... User preference,
suitability of purpose, sustainability and supportability, interactivity
with existing systems and data, training requirements, ease-of-use... all
pale to insignificance when a suspected 'exploit' raises its head. 

What also fascinates is the way these reported exploits are only deemed the
responsibility of manufacturers to patch (albeit the manufacturer can be a
corporation or community - noting Open Source is often both), yet most
potential exploits are mitigated by the simplest of methods - Do not access
the 'net under a user account with administrative rights; run an up-to-date
virus scanner; do not accept html emails, and do not open email attachments
from an unknown source.

Somehow the matter of practicalities, common sense and reasonable use seems
to have been lost in this continuing battle of platform evangelism.

Don Cameron


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[DDN] video from last week's UMass public media roundtable

2006-05-23 Thread Andy Carvin

Hi everyone,

I've just uploaded the videos from last week's public media roundtable 
in Boston's Chinatown. The videos include commentary from Fred Johnson 
of UMass/Boston, public media advocate Alyce Myatt, Dan Coughlin of 
Manhattan Neighborhood Networks, and myself. We talk about a range of 
issues threatening public media, including the COPE Act.


http://www.andycarvin.com

thanks,
andy


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