[digitalradio] Re: Contestia
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 10:37:31 -0700, Brian Lloyd said: (I forgot to reply to all.) (I removed one level of characters below) On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Brian Lloyd wrote: [snip] It is really Really *REALLY* important to understand what is going on with these protocols in the presence of propagation anomalies in order to be able to make decisions about which modes work best under what conditions. My own recent experiments in monitoring and graphing the phase/frequency changes of the WWV carrier over time (20-30 minute samples typically) have convinced me that sequential testing of protocols, i.e. transmitting a message and then immediately transmitting the same message using the other protocol, is not likely to produce valid results unless repeated numerous times and then the results averaged with outliers discarded. True, and I seriously doubt that anyone has bothered to do that. The pskmail client - server communication does this all the time. It looks at the result of the last frames (both S/N and arq result) and decides on the mode to use for the next frame (separately for client and server mode). That way we always use the most effective mode for the circumstances. We don't need modes wider than 500 Hz to be fast, and change between raw PSK, robust PSK, MFSK and THOR modes. This way we are gathering lots of information on this subject automatically :) The contestia and olivia modes do not transmit the right character set so we cannot use them. 73, Rein PA0R
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Contestia
On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 09:06:46 +0200 (CEST), Rein Couperus r...@couperus.com said: On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 21:43:54 +0100, Stelios Bounanos said: On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 10:37:31 -0700, Brian Lloyd said: (I forgot to reply to all.) (I removed one level of characters below) It is really Really *REALLY* important to understand what is going on with these protocols in the presence of propagation anomalies in order to be able to make decisions about which modes work best under what conditions. My own recent experiments in monitoring and graphing the phase/frequency changes of the WWV carrier over time (20-30 minute samples typically) have convinced me that sequential testing of protocols, i.e. transmitting a message and then immediately transmitting the same message using the other protocol, is not likely to produce valid results unless repeated numerous times and then the results averaged with outliers discarded. True, and I seriously doubt that anyone has bothered to do that. The pskmail client - server communication does this all the time. It looks at the result of the last frames (both S/N and arq result) and decides on the mode to use for the next frame (separately for client and server mode). That way we always use the most effective mode for the circumstances. We don't need modes wider than 500 Hz to be fast, and change between raw PSK, robust PSK, MFSK and THOR modes. This way we are gathering lots of information on this subject automatically :) The contestia and olivia modes do not transmit the right character set so we cannot use them. I fixed up the quoted text above so it's clearer to see who was writing what. This thread was posted to the fldigi-alpha mailing list and can be read here (start with first Contestia email): http://www.mail-archive.com/fldigi-al...@lists.berlios.de/index.html http://lists.berlios.de/pipermail/fldigi-alpha/2010-April/thread.html#1099 Brian was saying that non-repeated, non-averaged tests are likely to be flawed. I said I doubted that anyone tested the right way (I still do :), since on-air test reports do not mention this stuff at all. At best, the testing is said to have been done over a period of time deemed long enough, but no graphs, no averaging, no apparent effort to discard invalid data. I know you've said that pskmail collects data to decide which modes to use. But other than switching modes, and perhaps logging that data locally, it's not telling anyone anything :-) If it could collect the S/N, loss % etc. for a period of time and set of modes, and make it available, that could be very interesting! Pskmail servers might export such statistics (even to non-participants) over HTTP. 73, Rein PA0R -- 73, Stelios, M0GLD.
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Contestia
I know you've said that pskmail collects data to decide which modes to use. But other than switching modes, and perhaps logging that data locally, it's not telling anyone anything :-) If it could collect the S/N, loss % etc. for a period of time and set of modes, and make it available, that could be very interesting! Pskmail servers might export such statistics (even to non-participants) over HTTP. Not a bad idea, I will see what I can do. Rein
[digitalradio] Re: Contestia QSO with Iceland thanks to RSID
Bravo -- and have had a similar experience under noisy low-signal contacts that would have been otherwise impossible w/o RSID (pn 14074). What freq did you capture TF3G on? de Rich/N2JR FM18 --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Tony d...@... wrote: All, Made my first Contestia contact with Iceland (Gisli TF3G) thanks to RSID. Gisli mentioned that he heard my CQ and went through several Olivia tone / bandwidth combinations not knowing I was running Contestia; a close cousin to Olivia. He then realized I was running RSID and finally turned his on which did the trick. There's no doubt that we would have missed each other without RSID. It's becoming more popular now that it's available in more programs, but I still hear many calling without RSID. This usually results in fewer contacts due to the fact that it's sometimes difficult to figure out what mode is in use by sight and sound. RSID is available in Fldigi, Multipsk, HRD/DM780 and soon to be Mixw. We need to start using it more folks... Tony -K2MO
[digitalradio] Re: Contestia QSO with Iceland thanks to RSID
Good point, Tony. After all, RSID is how I got you in my log a few days ago ;) 73 de NE4W --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Tony d...@... wrote: RSID is available in Fldigi, Multipsk, HRD/DM780 and soon to be Mixw. We need to start using it more folks...
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Contestia QSO with Iceland thanks to RSID
Ben, Good point, Tony. After all, RSID is how I got you in my log a few days ago ;) 73 de NE4W Glad you had it on om - works beautifully... Tony -K2MO
[digitalradio] Re: Contestia RTTYM
Hi Simon. Why don't you use MultiPSK or PocketDigi to test Contestia and RTTYM against? You could reuse PocketDigi's source code also. 73, Vojtech --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Simon \(HB9DRV\) simon.br...@... wrote: Is there anyone out there who uses both DM780 MixW who could record wave files using DM780 where the wave files contain Contestia and RTTYM trasmissions? You'll need to couple the programs using something like VAC. Ideally one file per mode with a reasonable long text. I need the waves files to be sure I implement Contestia and RTTYM correctly. I don't have mixW and don't use it less i get accussed of plagiarism and lawyers start hunting me (yes, it has happened before). Simon HB9DRV www.ham-radio-deluxe.com www.sdr-radio.com
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Contestia RTTYM
Hi Vojtech, I didn't know that PocketDigi ran on Windows XP etc. - I also clean forgot about MultiPSK (sorry Patrick). I saw your Contestia / RTTYM implementation - quite simple really (once someone's already done the hard work). Simon HB9DRV www.ham-radio-deluxe.com www.sdr-radio.com -- From: Vojtech Bubnik bubn...@seznam.cz Why don't you use MultiPSK or PocketDigi to test Contestia and RTTYM against? You could reuse PocketDigi's source code also.
[digitalradio] Re: Contestia RTTYM
VERY interesting, Jaak, thank you! Where do you feel MT63 would fall? Thanks, Scott k*b*l*0*0*q --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Jaak Hohensee jaak.hohen...@... wrote: Hi Simon and all I made some pathsimulations with RTTYM and Contestia from viewpoint QRP and contesting. My results show that both are dead modes. But RTTYM with UOS like Sholto believe it would be much better. The data about 1.5dB snr or 3dB in relation with original Olivia is myth. Better alternative is FEC-free DominoEX 5/11 for contesting and MFSK16 for everyday use. The original Olivia is bulletproof but a little slow and wide. The test results in pdf-file http://www.edutee.net/QuickPlace/digiqrp/Main.nsf/h_50B8373EB47C85CEC22573B20035031F/44CE2826803EF034C225759B0080DEC7/?OpenDocument or if the link dont open: www.edutee.net/digiqrp Jaak es1hj/qrp Simon (HB9DRV) wrote: Is there anyone out there who uses both DM780 MixW who could record wave files using DM780 where the wave files contain Contestia and RTTYM trasmissions? You'll need to couple the programs using something like VAC. Ideally one file per mode with a reasonable long text. I need the waves files to be sure I implement Contestia and RTTYM correctly. I don't have mixW and don't use it less i get accussed of plagiarism and lawyers start hunting me (yes, it has happened before). Simon HB9DRV www.ham-radio-deluxe.com wlmailhtml:%7B32707AD4-6E7A-4DD5-B438-269E50A418FB%7Dmid://0258/%21x-usc:http://www.ham-radio-deluxe.com/ www.sdr-radio.com wlmailhtml:%7B32707AD4-6E7A-4DD5-B438-269E50A418FB%7Dmid://0258/%21x-usc:http://www.sdr-radio.com/ -- Kirjutas ja tervitab Jaak Hohensee
[digitalradio] Re: Contestia / MT63 Skeds pse
Tony, Had a good copy on you in MT63 and Contestia. It took a while to get MixW set up again and my temporary rig setup is unstable on transmit. You did have a strong signal to the Gulf Coast around 2330 until my crude wire lash up came undone. Just my luck... Rich WA4SXZ --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Tony d...@... wrote: Rick, Same here; copied some of your signal on both Olivia and MFSK16. Also, nearly impossible to tune in since you have to guesstimate where to put the cursors even though you are close to 14108 +1000 Hz. Seems to tolorate some off-tuning -- about +/- 150Hz or so. I should have mentioned where the signal was centered. I'll be sure to mention that next time - I usually stick with +1000Hz. Thanks for trying Rick... Tony -K2MO - Original Message - From: Rick W mrf...@... To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Contestia / MT63 Skeds pse Tried calling CQ with Contestia 16/1000 when I first saw your e-mail post. Right now at ~ 0050Z I heard you and could only copy bits and pieces with Contestia. Switched to MFSK16 but probably not fully locked in with Multipsk which I have not used as much and more familiar with fldigi's way of teaking that mode, so tried to switch to fldigi but using new alpha software and for some reason can not get the new version to do PTT:( Can hear the signal now, but very weak (not moving the S-meter) but probably would work OK for Olivia 16/500 and maybe MFSK16 if I had HRD/DM780 up. Maybe you could try Contestia 500/16 which is about 3 dB better sensitivity. The problem with the wider Contestia is that it is not as sensitive, maybe -9 dB SNR so will not work as well with weak signals as other modes. Also, nearly impossible to tune in since you have to guesstimate where to put the cursors even though you are close to 14108 +1000 Hz. 73, Rick, KV9U Tony wrote: Skip, The band is in great shape this evening (as of 23:30 utc) but there doesn't seem to be any Contestia / MT63 ops around. I'll be QRV on 14108.0 USB for while. Glad to help out and I'll be sure to switch between modes quickly to avoid band changes. Tony -K2MO
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Contestia / MT63 Skeds pse
Rich, Had a good copy on you in MT63 and Contestia. It took a while to get MixW set up again and my temporary rig setup is unstable on transmit. You did have a strong signal to the Gulf Coast around 2330 until my crude wire lash up came undone. Just my luck... Thanks for trying om. Sorry to hear about the antenna problems and hope you get things going again. I'll be on this evening -- 14108.0 Thanks Rich... Tony -K2MO
[digitalradio] Re: Contestia / MT63 Skeds pse
QRV - 14108.0 USB - Original Message - From: Tony d...@optonline.net To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 4:14 PM Subject: Contestia / MT63 Skeds pse All, Would like to run a few tests with Contestia (16/1K) and MT63 (1K) this evening. The goal is to see if sensitivity simulations compare well with on-air testing. Contestia should have an advantage since the peak-to-average output is much better. Not sure about it's QRM resistance. The MT63 mode is somewhat faster in terms of characters-per-minute, but it also has quite a bit of latency that adds to the total TX/RX turn around time. I tested both using a 100 word Pangram and found that MT63-1K (long interleave) took 50 seconds to finish the text and 61 seconds to complete. Contestia-16/1K took 64 seconds. The 8/1K Constestia mode took 43 seconds. Should be interesting to see how these modes compare. Not exactly lighting speed and not much call for this other than those who prefer high-speed chatting, but I think it's useful information nonetheless. I'll be QRV this evening - March 25/26. Skeds welcome Tony -K2MO
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Contestia / MT63 Skeds pse
Tony, I think I heard Contestia, but too weak to copy. Also, the frequency is pulled a lot by noise and static. 73, Skip KH6TY http://kh6ty.home.comcast.net - Original Message - From: Tony To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 4:35 PM Subject: [digitalradio] Re: Contestia / MT63 Skeds pse QRV - 14108.0 USB - Original Message - From: Tony d...@optonline.net To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 4:14 PM Subject: Contestia / MT63 Skeds pse All, Would like to run a few tests with Contestia (16/1K) and MT63 (1K) this evening. The goal is to see if sensitivity simulations compare well with on-air testing. Contestia should have an advantage since the peak-to-average output is much better. Not sure about it's QRM resistance. The MT63 mode is somewhat faster in terms of characters-per-minute, but it also has quite a bit of latency that adds to the total TX/RX turn around time. I tested both using a 100 word Pangram and found that MT63-1K (long interleave) took 50 seconds to finish the text and 61 seconds to complete. Contestia-16/1K took 64 seconds. The 8/1K Constestia mode took 43 seconds. Should be interesting to see how these modes compare. Not exactly lighting speed and not much call for this other than those who prefer high-speed chatting, but I think it's useful information nonetheless. I'll be QRV this evening - March 25/26. Skeds welcome Tony -K2MO
[digitalradio] Re: Contestia 1K vs MT63?
Hi Tony. Even though the simulation results look promising for MT63, they do not take real HAM SSB transceiver into account. SSB PA of an average HAM TRX is usually not very linear and the many carriers of MT63 will mix with each other, which will show up as an added noise. Also MT63 has very low crest factor, so the effective transmitted power will be much lower than of Contestia if you do not overdrive the TX. I bet you will be better of to use Contestia on the air using let's say an average 100W YaeComWood. 73, Vojtech --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Tony [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All, I was playing with the Contestia mode in an attempt to duplicate the wpm rate of MT63. I configured Contestia with 16 tones and a bandwidth of 1K. The sensitivity of the two seemed to be the same and the wpm rate appeared to be close. I then tested both modes with the HF path simulator dialed-in for selective fading with the SNR set a few db above the minimum decode threshold. As you can see below, print was better with MT63. The deep fades caused garbled characters with Contestia and it would appear the better copy with MT63 is a result of the redundancy built into the mode. I'm not sure if that's an accurate assessment as to why there is a difference, but it would seem so. Wonder if anyone can shed some light on this. Tony, K2MO Path Simulation : Selective Fading SNR : -3db / -6db Contestia 1K / 16 tone SNR -3db THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG THE QUICK BROWN FOS OVER TH- G THE BROWN FOXMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG THE QUICRO,N FOX JUMPS OVELAZY DOG SNR -6db TE QUCK BROW FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG THE QUG2NOWNS YVER THOEG THE BROWN FO#UBR OVER TE LAZY DOG THE QUIC^_^N FOX JUMPS OVELAZY DOG MT63 1K SNR -3db *DE K2MO* THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG *EOT* SNR -6db *DE K2M TH QUICK AOWN FOX JUOP; OVrR THE LAZY ROG THE Q%ICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG THE QUICK BROWNFOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG *EOT*
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Contestia 1K vs MT63?
Hello Vojtech and Tony, has very low crest factor, so the effective transmitted power will be An example, with a 100 watts HF transceiver, keeping linear: * you can transmit 10 watts of MT63, * you can transmit 76 watts of Contestia. 73 Patrick - Original Message - From: Vojtech Bubnik [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 4:08 PM Subject: [digitalradio] Re: Contestia 1K vs MT63? Hi Tony. Even though the simulation results look promising for MT63, they do not take real HAM SSB transceiver into account. SSB PA of an average HAM TRX is usually not very linear and the many carriers of MT63 will mix with each other, which will show up as an added noise. Also MT63 has very low crest factor, so the effective transmitted power will be much lower than of Contestia if you do not overdrive the TX. I bet you will be better of to use Contestia on the air using let's say an average 100W YaeComWood. 73, Vojtech --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Tony [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All, I was playing with the Contestia mode in an attempt to duplicate the wpm rate of MT63. I configured Contestia with 16 tones and a bandwidth of 1K. The sensitivity of the two seemed to be the same and the wpm rate appeared to be close. I then tested both modes with the HF path simulator dialed-in for selective fading with the SNR set a few db above the minimum decode threshold. As you can see below, print was better with MT63. The deep fades caused garbled characters with Contestia and it would appear the better copy with MT63 is a result of the redundancy built into the mode. I'm not sure if that's an accurate assessment as to why there is a difference, but it would seem so. Wonder if anyone can shed some light on this. Tony, K2MO Path Simulation : Selective Fading SNR : -3db / -6db Contestia 1K / 16 tone SNR -3db THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG THE QUICK BROWN FOS OVER TH- G THE BROWN FOXMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG THE QUICRO,N FOX JUMPS OVELAZY DOG SNR -6db TE QUCK BROW FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG THE QUG2NOWNS YVER THOEG THE BROWN FO#UBR OVER TE LAZY DOG THE QUIC^_^N FOX JUMPS OVELAZY DOG MT63 1K SNR -3db *DE K2MO* THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG *EOT* SNR -6db *DE K2M TH QUICK AOWN FOX JUOP; OVrR THE LAZY ROG THE Q%ICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG THE QUICK BROWNFOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG *EOT* Announce your digital presence via our Interactive Sked Page at http://www.obriensweb.com/sked 30M digital activity at http://www.projectsandparts.com/30m Recommended software : DM780, Multipsk, FLDIGI, Winwarbler ,MMVARI. Yahoo! Groups Links
[digitalradio] Re: Contestia Sprint December 6/7 !
Confusing on the dates, I see. UTC Dec 6th is what I meant! --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, obrienaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pawel's description of Contestia saysI hope this mode can be a replacement for RTTY in contests . OK, so let's test it under contest conditions. How about a mini - sprint or Contestia Two-Legged Rush. I propose that we try a 30 minutes sprint using Contestia on UTC December 6, at 0100 UTC and again at 1300 UTC on December 7th. Any bands, except WARC bands. Just a total time of 1 hour, in two 30 minute segments, that will provide differing propagation conditions. Since we want to simulate contest conditions, does anyone want to propose a simple scoring system?Scores/logs published here. Andy K3UK Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/ELTolB/TM ~- Need a Digital mode QSO? Connect to telnet://208.15.25.196/ Other areas of interest: The MixW Reflector : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup/ Looking for digital mode software? Check the quick commerical free link below http://www.obriensweb.com/digimodes.html Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitalradio/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
