Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
Ian Lynch wrote: On 5 July 2011 21:58, Robert Derman robert.der...@pressenter.com wrote: e-letter wrote: As far as the request for the ability to download individual components of LO, this should not be enabled. The whole concept of the predecessor staroffice product was to provide various functionalities in terms of word-processing, spreadsheets, drawing, etc. and this should be continued. Perhaps this was a bad idea way back when Staroffice was first designed. StarO was designed at a time when MSO had set the model for megalithic design. You can see why a proprietary software company would do this. It focuses lock-in to the core productivity that could then extend further and further. Cooperation between applications through interoperability based on open standards was part of the original unix design concept but got lost until the rise of the web. So at the time it was probably not seen to be such a bad idea but in hindsight it clearly looks that way. Saying that because a design decision was made 15 or more years ago it should not be changed is a recipe for disaster. Things change and without change you will at best get stagnation ad at worst rapid death. Someone explained here in a more detailed and understandable way just what the nature of the design of Staroffice actually is. That in fact it is just one big program and the different modules are just different about 300 K each user interfaces which present different controls and screens to the user. If that is indeed the case, then it follows that the only way to get significantly smaller separate modules would be to toss out the entire program/codebase and start over from scratch writing smaller programs that don't include any of the functions not required for the purpose of that program/function/module. In other words the new Writer would not be able to function as a spreadsheet, or database, or drawing program, or presentation program, because the code, instructions to do those functions would not be present. The new Calc would not be able to function as a drawing program, and so on. This must be why it was said that to provide a mobile version of LO would require starting over from scratch and writing a new program. I would guess that some of the speed/performance issues of OOo, LO are because of this monolithic design. That for instance a spreadsheet that is ONLY a spreadsheet would run much faster. As I understand it, this is the way that Microsoft Office is designed, with separate programs that are not integrated with each other. It seems to me that with such a monolithic design that we are missing the opportunity to provide one very unique capability, a combined function where you could use the word processor to create business forms, and within them, embed cells with spreadsheet or database functions, turn parts of the document read only, have automatic invoice # incrementing etc. Many times when I had a small electronics company I wished for such a piece of software and never found one. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
On 6 July 2011 08:45, Robert Derman robert.der...@pressenter.com wrote: Someone explained here in a more detailed and understandable way just what the nature of the design of Staroffice actually is. That in fact it is just one big program and the different modules are just different about 300 K each user interfaces which present different controls and screens to the user. If that is indeed the case, then it follows that the only way to get significantly smaller separate modules would be to toss out the entire program/codebase and start over from scratch writing smaller programs that don't include any of the functions not required for the purpose of that program/function/module. Maybe. However there are probably objects that do general things like saving a file or handling printing that could largely be lifted out an modified without starting from absolute scratch. Of course the downside is that you will have to replicate quite a lot of code with each application so the sum total of code for the whole suite will get bigger while each individual app will get smaller. Inkscape is a 25 meg download on its own so if you take this as broadly comparable for Draw and that you need most of that in Impress and Writer and Calc will be bigger. It might overall double the size of the download for the whole suite with probably a minimum download of 25 meg for any individual component and perhaps as big as 50 meg for something like Writer. So the question is whether the time and effort is worth it if the only gain is a reduction in download size and then not that big a gain and some making it worse. In other words the new Writer would not be able to function as a spreadsheet, or database, or drawing program, or presentation program, because the code, instructions to do those functions would not be present. The new Calc would not be able to function as a drawing program, and so on. This must be why it was said that to provide a mobile version of LO would require starting over from scratch and writing a new program. Pretty well. It seems to me that a web version would be a better bet because as bandwidth becomes more reliable you then don't need to download anything and it will work on any mobile (or non-mobile) device. Snag again is that this probably needs a rewrite although there is less need to break things up. If we could get sponsorship for servers you could do it right now by giving thin client logins. That would need either sponsorship or a revenue stream for support costs. Advertising is one way of funding that sort of service, certification, or charging end users. The latter I doubt because competing products don't charge and it would probably back fire in terms of pr. I would guess that some of the speed/performance issues of OOo, LO are because of this monolithic design. That for instance a spreadsheet that is ONLY a spreadsheet would run much faster. As I understand it, this is the way that Microsoft Office is designed, with separate programs that are not integrated with each other. It seems to me that with such a monolithic design that we are missing the opportunity to provide one very unique capability, a combined function where you could use the word processor to create business forms, and within them, embed cells with spreadsheet or database functions, turn parts of the document read only, have automatic invoice # incrementing etc. Many times when I had a small electronics company I wished for such a piece of software and never found one. There used to be one on the old Acorn and Sinclair Z88s called Pipedream. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+help@**documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/** Netiquette http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.**documentfoundation.org/www/**discuss/http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
As far as the request for the ability to download individual components of LO, this should not be enabled. The whole concept of the predecessor staroffice product was to provide various functionalities in terms of word-processing, spreadsheets, drawing, etc. and this should be continued. Those seeking smaller individual components should consider other programs such as abiword or gnumeric. Since the ODF is now established, as long as such programs are odf-compliant, users can choose more confidently where to use the whole office paradigm or the unix way (i.e. select specific programs to do only specific tasks). -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
e-letter wrote: As far as the request for the ability to download individual components of LO, this should not be enabled. The whole concept of the predecessor staroffice product was to provide various functionalities in terms of word-processing, spreadsheets, drawing, etc. and this should be continued. Perhaps this was a bad idea way back when Staroffice was first designed. Those seeking smaller individual components should consider other programs such as abiword or gnumeric. Since the ODF is now established, as long as such programs are odf-compliant, users can choose more confidently where to use the whole office paradigm or the unix way (i.e. select specific programs to do only specific tasks). -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
On 5 July 2011 21:58, Robert Derman robert.der...@pressenter.com wrote: e-letter wrote: As far as the request for the ability to download individual components of LO, this should not be enabled. The whole concept of the predecessor staroffice product was to provide various functionalities in terms of word-processing, spreadsheets, drawing, etc. and this should be continued. Perhaps this was a bad idea way back when Staroffice was first designed. StarO was designed at a time when MSO had set the model for megalithic design. You can see why a proprietary software company would do this. It focuses lock-in to the core productivity that could then extend further and further. Cooperation between applications through interoperability based on open standards was part of the original unix design concept but got lost until the rise of the web. So at the time it was probably not seen to be such a bad idea but in hindsight it clearly looks that way. Saying that because a design decision was made 15 or more years ago it should not be changed is a recipe for disaster. Things change and without change you will at best get stagnation ad at worst rapid death. Those seeking smaller individual components should consider other programs such as abiword or gnumeric. More likely Google Docs or similar web based productivity tools where groups can share and edit data in real time. Since the ODF is now established, as long as such programs are odf-compliant, users can choose more confidently where to use the whole office paradigm or the unix way (i.e. select specific programs to do only specific tasks). ODF is not yet that well established. I wish it was. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
On 2 July 2011 23:22, Robert Derman robert.der...@pressenter.com wrote: Keith Curtis wrote: The problem with building a reader is that it would be about the same size as LibreOffice. OpenDocument is very different from PDF. For those who can't install LO, they probably can't install the reader either. Perhaps separating the modules of LO so that users could download and install only the parts that they actually want, for instance I NEVER use spreadsheets and probably never would use any part of the LO package other than Writer. There is a small chance that I might use the database, but the rest of it never. The snag as I understand it is that there is a lot of code shared between components so separating them is not easy and would not result in as big a saving in size as one would think. I use Writer but I tend to use Google spreadsheets as I need to share them collaboratively. I use Inkscape rather than Draw simply because I like it better. I doubt I would ever use Base. Perhaps Impress on occasions. But I think Impress and Draw share a lot of code so its probably not going to save much having one without the other. I believe there is quite a bit of redundant code in OOo so would a better starting point not be to get rid of as much of this as possible? -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
Ian Lynch wrote: On 2 July 2011 23:22, Robert Derman robert.der...@pressenter.com wrote: Keith Curtis wrote: The problem with building a reader is that it would be about the same size as LibreOffice. OpenDocument is very different from PDF. For those who can't install LO, they probably can't install the reader either. Perhaps separating the modules of LO so that users could download and install only the parts that they actually want, for instance I NEVER use spreadsheets and probably never would use any part of the LO package other than Writer. There is a small chance that I might use the database, but the rest of it never. The snag as I understand it is that there is a lot of code shared between components so separating them is not easy and would not result in as big a saving in size as one would think. I use Writer but I tend to use Google spreadsheets as I need to share them collaboratively. I use Inkscape rather than Draw simply because I like it better. I doubt I would ever use Base. Perhaps Impress on occasions. But I think Impress and Draw share a lot of code so its probably not going to save much having one without the other. I believe there is quite a bit of redundant code in OOo so would a better starting point not be to get rid of as much of this as possible? As I understand this is being done by the LO developers and much more effectively than OOo ever did. As I understand doing a general clean-up of the code was never a priority with Sun management, although it probably should have been. What I am wondering is if there aren't a lot of users like me who only ever use Writer and are not likely to ever use any of the other modules. In any case, I think that it might be a good idea to do a survey of LO users and find out how many only use one of the modules, and if so which one. If such a survey shows that a substantial number say 40% of users only use Writer, then it might be a good idea to work to be able to offer a Writer only package. I know that if a Writer only package were available from LibreOffice, that is what I would download and use. To produce such a package I expect, would mean stripping out ALL code not used specifically by Writer. As an example, back when I was using Microsoft, I never used office, I only purchased Word, I never had or wanted Excel, PowerPoint, or any of the other programs that make up the Office package. What I bought and recommended to others was a package called Home Essentials. As I remember it had the Encarta encyclopedia, MS Money, MS Works and other stuff, but the important thing was that it included a full copy of Word at a lower price than you would otherwise pay for Word alone. Whatever, anyway the point I am making is that I was only interested in Word, (this was all before OOo was available) and I suspect that I am not all that unusual as far as end users are concerned. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
On 3 July 2011 21:38, Robert Derman robert.der...@pressenter.com wrote: Ian Lynch wrote: On 2 July 2011 23:22, Robert Derman robert.der...@pressenter.com wrote Keith Curtis wrote: The problem with building a reader is that it would be about the same size as LibreOffice. OpenDocument is very different from PDF. For those who can't install LO, they probably can't install the reader either Perhaps separating the modules of LO so that users could download and install only the parts that they actually want, for instance I NEVER use spreadsheets and probably never would use any part of the LO package other than Writer. There is a small chance that I might use the database, but the rest of it never. The snag as I understand it is that there is a lot of code shared between components so separating them is not easy and would not result in as big a saving in size as one would think. I use Writer but I tend to use Google spreadsheets as I need to share them collaboratively. I use Inkscape rather than Draw simply because I like it better. I doubt I would ever use Base. Perhaps Impress on occasions. But I think Impress and Draw share a lot of code so its probably not going to save much having one without the other. I believe there is quite a bit of redundant code in OOo so would a better starting point not be to get rid of as much of this as possible? As I understand this is being done by the LO developers and much more effectively than OOo ever did. As I understand doing a general clean-up of the code was never a priority with Sun management, although it probably should have been. Good to know. What I am wondering is if there aren't a lot of users like me who only ever use Writer and are not likely to ever use any of the other modules. Probably. In any case, I think that it might be a good idea to do a survey of LO users and find out how many only use one of the modules, and if so which one. If such a survey shows that a substantial number say 40% of users only use Writer, then it might be a good idea to work to be able to offer a Writer only package. I know that if a Writer only package were available from LibreOffice, that is what I would download and use. what if a Writer only package only save 30% of the code size, was quite a lot of work to achieve and then you were left with two sets of code to maintain? Would it be worth it? Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see independent components. I'd also like to see at least Writer on Smartphones and Tablets and I'd like to see a good web implementation of Writer. All about the resources and priorities in the end. To produce such a package I expect, would mean stripping out ALL code not used specifically by Writer. Depends how modular things are. That I don't know. My impression is that OOo was designed in a megalithic way to make integration of the apps more seamless. As an example, back when I was using Microsoft, I never used office, I only purchased Word, I never had or wanted Excel, PowerPoint, or any of the other programs that make up the Office package. What I bought and recommended to others was a package called Home Essentials. As I remember it had the Encarta encyclopedia, MS Money, MS Works and other stuff, but the important thing was that it included a full copy of Word at a lower price than you would otherwise pay for Word alone. Whatever, anyway the point I am making is that I was only interested in Word, (this was all before OOo was available) and I suspect that I am not all that unusual as far as end users are concerned. I think their are fundamental design differences between MS Office and OOo that make this less than straightforward to do. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+help@**documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/** Netiquette http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.**documentfoundation.org/www/**discuss/http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
On 2011-06-25, Ian Lynch wrote: On 25 June 2011 10:02, timofonic timofonic timofo...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 3:42 AM, Nuno J. Silva nunojsi...@ist.utl.pt wrote: On 2011-06-24, Andrea Pescetti wrote: This, however, won't work. Document fidelity is not the aim of ODT files, while it is the aim of PDF files (example: font embedding, but one could find many more). Replacing PDF by ODT is just not feasible due to the formats themselves, not to the lack of an ODF Reader. Font embedding is an issue, it could render the viewer useless. It's possible, at least, to make some room for compatible documents, by shipping a set of fonts with the viewer and announcing that as the standard fonts for ODF viewer. Unless there's some required feature of ODT that's not possible to reproduce in PDF, I suggest keeping with PDF for now: it is designed for portability and it's vectorial, so there's no loss. [...] What is the purpose of pdf? It's for putting documents on paper. If you simply want to read a document on screen use a browser. There was a project to develop a Firefox plugin through the OpenDocument Fellowship but I think it has stalled. I would rather encourage people to read screen based stuff with a browser instead of having to download pdfs when the information is rarely ever printed. If it needs to be LibO will produce a pdf to do it. Seems to me that a browser plugin is a lot simpler task and a lot more useful. Get Google to sponsor it for Chrome. You're right, if the idea is an onscreen reader, something that just renders the content on-screen using available fonts and some user-defined settings (color scheme, monospace, text width, ...) would be way more useful than something that's concerned with freezing the look'n'feel of the document. Just like html is supposed to work. -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
I am just a user, but have been using Oo for 3-4 years now libO. The biggest issue I face is when I forget to save a file to doc format before emailing it to somebody who uses MS Off. I end up having to resend it in doc format. I try to avoid this by telling my associates to get libO, so that we would not have these conversion probs. Many do not due to either size ( of course, they already have MS Off) or due to company policy. The size segment can be done away with a reader that is low size ( maybe advertises free libO in splash screen) AND can resave in doc format, if the user wants to edit the document on MS Off. Such a reader, especially if it opens multiple formats, would be a handy utility many would adopt, especially users who regularly correspond with libO users but do not wish to move over to it fully. As an awareness exercise, its beyond par. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
The problem with building a reader is that it would be about the same size as LibreOffice. OpenDocument is very different from PDF. For those who can't install LO, they probably can't install the reader either. You have to think about file formats when interacting with people, just like you have to think about language. The solution here is for you to make DOC, etc. your default format so that the computer will do the right thing even when you forget. The long-term solution is for people to standardize on ODF. Regards, -Keith -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 1:38 AM, Keith Curtis keit...@gmail.com wrote: The solution here is for you to make DOC, etc. your default format so that the computer will do the right thing even when you forget. The long-term solution is for people to standardize on ODF. My SME company is totally libO..so that is not an optionbut thanks. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
Keith Curtis wrote: The problem with building a reader is that it would be about the same size as LibreOffice. OpenDocument is very different from PDF. For those who can't install LO, they probably can't install the reader either. Perhaps separating the modules of LO so that users could download and install only the parts that they actually want, for instance I NEVER use spreadsheets and probably never would use any part of the LO package other than Writer. There is a small chance that I might use the database, but the rest of it never. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
On 26 June 2011 01:15, Sean White runicpala...@gmail.com wrote: I dont thinks thats normal somehow, i have been using Adobe Reader for years and have NEVER had it come past 200MB. ISTR a whole load of adverising crap in one large Acrobat download. Back to discussion, what's with all the PDF hate. Not hate, irritation by misuse. Hundreds of files to download that could simply be in HTML pages (as Alexandro indicated). We get stuff originated in whatever app and distributed in pdf format when it will never ever get printed. In fact mostly you can produce a pdf from a web page if you really need to anyway. I have 100 page application forms from the EU in Acrobat that need huge hardware resources just to be usable. This stuff should be in client server databases operated through web browsers not desktop pdf files. I accept all this as transition noise as we move to mobile technologies and the web. pdf was not originally designed for these purposes, it was designed for systems putting the information on to paper and has been extended and bloated accordingly. Arguably, rather like Office applications ;-). It serves a very good purpose a standard, editable document that shows up exactly how you want it WHEREVER you are and whatever OS you are using. Not disputing that. If you want distribute a document accurately for printing on paper, use pdf. this has always been its use and so it falls in a different document category to ODF. ODF is an office format created to compete with MSO's doc, xls an ppt formats. to essentially modify the underlying purpose to make it behave more like a PDF would waste most of what we have put into it. I agree, so let's look at the future and that is the web and mobile tecnologies. How do we get LibO to the web? That would be a far better priority for the use of resources. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
OpenDocument accurate representation file format? Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
Anyway, I don´t consider PDF a proper OPEN standard, as it´s not designed by a global consortium like OASIS. What about designing a new file format for this purpose and being part of OpenDocument? Some people said DjVu being accurate but lacking some features (vectorial image support?). I'm not a developer at all, but I think OpenDocument format family should evolve in this direction some day. PDF-based ISO standard follows a lying way similar to Mono and .NET: the open standard lags behind the official implementation. This is a very dangerous trap that is still giving too much advantages to Adobe over competitors. On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 1:07 PM, Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com wrote: On 26 June 2011 01:15, Sean White runicpala...@gmail.com wrote: I dont thinks thats normal somehow, i have been using Adobe Reader for years and have NEVER had it come past 200MB. ISTR a whole load of adverising crap in one large Acrobat download. Back to discussion, what's with all the PDF hate. Not hate, irritation by misuse. Hundreds of files to download that could simply be in HTML pages (as Alexandro indicated). We get stuff originated in whatever app and distributed in pdf format when it will never ever get printed. In fact mostly you can produce a pdf from a web page if you really need to anyway. I have 100 page application forms from the EU in Acrobat that need huge hardware resources just to be usable. This stuff should be in client server databases operated through web browsers not desktop pdf files. I accept all this as transition noise as we move to mobile technologies and the web. pdf was not originally designed for these purposes, it was designed for systems putting the information on to paper and has been extended and bloated accordingly. Arguably, rather like Office applications ;-). It serves a very good purpose a standard, editable document that shows up exactly how you want it WHEREVER you are and whatever OS you are using. Not disputing that. If you want distribute a document accurately for printing on paper, use pdf. this has always been its use and so it falls in a different document category to ODF. ODF is an office format created to compete with MSO's doc, xls an ppt formats. to essentially modify the underlying purpose to make it behave more like a PDF would waste most of what we have put into it. I agree, so let's look at the future and that is the web and mobile tecnologies. How do we get LibO to the web? That would be a far better priority for the use of resources. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 4:36 PM, Alexandro Colorado j...@openoffice.org wrote: On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 5:27 PM, Nuno J. Silva nunojsi...@ist.utl.ptwrote: I know Evince runs in Windows, just see its download page I will suggest you to investigate poppler rather than evince. Most floss pdf viewers really are based of propper which is the native renderer for this. Both Evince and Okular for example uses this. http://poppler.freedesktop.org/ That would make sense if you were only interested in viewing pdfs. I don't know about evince, but okular also supports postscript, odf, djvu, chm, docbook, ms office, several ebook formats, and dozens of image formats, amongst others. -Todd -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: OpenDocument accurate representation file format? Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
Neither PDF nor ODF were initially designed by a global consortium like OASIS. PDF and PostScript have obvious origins, as does ODF in a proposal from Sun and its contribution the XML version of a pre-ODF version of OpenOffice.org (and as does OOXML in a proposal to ECMA International from Microsoft). My friends at AIIM International and the various ISO Committees that have nurtured the International Standards for PDF formats may feel rather hurt that their efforts to produce a set of international, interoperable PDF standards is being besmirched in this manner. (My friends who work on the international standard for OOXML have learned to have thick skins.) If you think about it, most of the standards that we have now in Information Technology started because someone built something useful and it attracted enough interested attention (and a willing contributor) to evolve into a formal standard. Sometimes standards activities form in order to solve a problem in interoperability. ASCII emerged that way and now look at where we are today with Unicode, something that was not dreamed of when characters were begrudgingly granted 6 bits of precious memory space. It is early days yet for ODF. Adobe promised its hardware customers interoperability and fidelity. The specifications for Postscript were quite rigorous as are those for its derivative, PDF, for which there is also a serious interoperability and fidelity promise. This made their uptake into international standards and subsequent maintenance relatively easy. ODF is not so simple. - Dennis -Original Message- From: timofonic timofonic [mailto:timofo...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 06:38 To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Subject: OpenDocument accurate representation file format? Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader Anyway, I don´t consider PDF a proper OPEN standard, as it´s not designed by a global consortium like OASIS. What about designing a new file format for this purpose and being part of OpenDocument? Some people said DjVu being accurate but lacking some features (vectorial image support?). I'm not a developer at all, but I think OpenDocument format family should evolve in this direction some day. PDF-based ISO standard follows a lying way similar to Mono and .NET: the open standard lags behind the official implementation. This is a very dangerous trap that is still giving too much advantages to Adobe over competitors. On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 1:07 PM, Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com wrote: On 26 June 2011 01:15, Sean White runicpala...@gmail.com wrote: I dont thinks thats normal somehow, i have been using Adobe Reader for years and have NEVER had it come past 200MB. ISTR a whole load of adverising crap in one large Acrobat download. Back to discussion, what's with all the PDF hate. Not hate, irritation by misuse. Hundreds of files to download that could simply be in HTML pages (as Alexandro indicated). We get stuff originated in whatever app and distributed in pdf format when it will never ever get printed. In fact mostly you can produce a pdf from a web page if you really need to anyway. I have 100 page application forms from the EU in Acrobat that need huge hardware resources just to be usable. This stuff should be in client server databases operated through web browsers not desktop pdf files. I accept all this as transition noise as we move to mobile technologies and the web. pdf was not originally designed for these purposes, it was designed for systems putting the information on to paper and has been extended and bloated accordingly. Arguably, rather like Office applications ;-). It serves a very good purpose a standard, editable document that shows up exactly how you want it WHEREVER you are and whatever OS you are using. Not disputing that. If you want distribute a document accurately for printing on paper, use pdf. this has always been its use and so it falls in a different document category to ODF. ODF is an office format created to compete with MSO's doc, xls an ppt formats. to essentially modify the underlying purpose to make it behave more like a PDF would waste most of what we have put into it. I agree, so let's look at the future and that is the web and mobile tecnologies. How do we get LibO to the web? That would be a far better priority for the use of resources. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
Sean White wrote: I dont thinks thats normal somehow, i have been using Adobe Reader for years and have NEVER had it come past 200MB. Back to discussion, what's with all the PDF hate. Actually I don't hate PDF, I use it frequently and as such I am glad that OOo and LO have the capability of outputting in that format. My only real complaint is that Adobe has let their reader application become unnecessarily bloated, see below. I feel that it would be shortsighted to decide at this point that ODF should never support font embedding. One never knows what the future will bring and we certainly don't know when it comes to anything to do with computers. Who of us thought 25 years ago that a computer a thousand times more powerful than any in existence and costing less than a typewriter would be warming our thighs on chilly winter mornings. Consider this scenario, a future version of LO enhanced for collaboration, embeds fonts so that everyone on a committee who works on a business plan document uses the same font no matter what operating system they are using. That way the document looks the same whether viewed on an iPad, an Android tablet, a tower computer with a 24 inch monitor, or printed out for handout. What I take from this is that some of us would like to see a companion application with a small footprint that can properly display documents created in LO. Something that would be a small download for those who have no desire to download and install anything as large as the complete LibreOffice package. No document format should ever be so ridged that it can't change and grow with the needs and desires of computer users. Lastly, I think that no person is ever as likely to be wrong as when he is absolutely certain that he is right. It serves a very good purpose a standard, editable document that shows up exactly how you want it WHEREVER you are and whatever OS you are using. this has always been its use and so it falls in a different document category to ODF. ODF is an office format created to compete with MSO's doc, xls an ppt formats. to essentially modify the underlying purpose to make it behave more like a PDF would waste most of what we have put into it. Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: My Windows 7 C:\Program Files (x86)\Adobe\Reader 10.0\ folder is 181 MB. Where do you get the 6 GB? I simply right clicked on the folder that contains adobe reader 9 and nothing else, the rest of the Adobe products are in a folder one level up that also contains the reader folder, in any case when I click properties, that is the size it lists, in fact to be more exact 6.2 gigabytes. I did the same with the folder containing LibreOffice, and it listed the size of that as 475 megabytes. So I am pretty much forced to believe it. Perhaps Adobe is going in the right direction again in the transition from reader 9 to reader 10, and dumping some unnecessary crap. What I meant by HUGE when I referred to Adobe Reader was the more than 6 Gigs of hard drive space it takes up! By contrast all of the LibreOffice suite of programs takes up 475 Megs of space. That means that a mere reader takes up more than a dozen times the space of an entire office suite. If that isn't mega-bloat I don't know what is. It has been a long time, but I seem to remember Adobe Reader only taking 12 Megs of space at one time. It used to come included on almost all driver disks, now it is just too big for that. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
I checked the size of C:\Program Files\Adobe\Reader 9.0\ on my remaining Windows XP SP3 computer, and the size is 137MB, smaller than the 181MB for Reader 10.0 on my Windows 7 system. So I still don't have any way to account for the reported observation of a 6GB folder. I don't doubt it, I just can't attribute it to the normal installation footprint of Adobe Reader. It would be interesting to know what folders within the 6GB Reader folder are the largest and what they appear to contain. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Robert Derman [mailto:robert.der...@pressenter.com] Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 11:55 To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader Sean White wrote: I dont thinks thats normal somehow, i have been using Adobe Reader for years and have NEVER had it come past 200MB. Back to discussion, what's with all the PDF hate. Actually I don't hate PDF, I use it frequently and as such I am glad that OOo and LO have the capability of outputting in that format. My only real complaint is that Adobe has let their reader application become unnecessarily bloated, see below. [ ... ] Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: My Windows 7 C:\Program Files (x86)\Adobe\Reader 10.0\ folder is 181 MB. Where do you get the 6 GB? I simply right clicked on the folder that contains adobe reader 9 and nothing else, the rest of the Adobe products are in a folder one level up that also contains the reader folder, in any case when I click properties, that is the size it lists, in fact to be more exact 6.2 gigabytes. I did the same with the folder containing LibreOffice, and it listed the size of that as 475 megabytes. So I am pretty much forced to believe it. Perhaps Adobe is going in the right direction again in the transition from reader 9 to reader 10, and dumping some unnecessary crap. [ ... ] -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: I checked the size of C:\Program Files\Adobe\Reader 9.0\ on my remaining Windows XP SP3 computer, and the size is 137MB, smaller than the 181MB for Reader 10.0 on my Windows 7 system. So I still don't have any way to account for the reported observation of a 6GB folder. I don't doubt it, I just can't attribute it to the normal installation footprint of Adobe Reader. It would be interesting to know what folders within the 6GB Reader folder are the largest and what they appear to contain. - Dennis It appears to be a bug in Windows 7, when you first take a properties reading on a folder, it displays the disk space used by the higher level folder that it is part of and not the size of the folder you are clicking on. the Adobe folder was 6.2 gigs, the Adobe reader folder was in fact 181 megabytes. apparently to get an accurate reading, you have to click on a sub file and then go up to the folder you want. -Original Message- From: Robert Derman [mailto:robert.der...@pressenter.com] Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 11:55 To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader Sean White wrote: I dont thinks thats normal somehow, i have been using Adobe Reader for years and have NEVER had it come past 200MB. Back to discussion, what's with all the PDF hate. Actually I don't hate PDF, I use it frequently and as such I am glad that OOo and LO have the capability of outputting in that format. My only real complaint is that Adobe has let their reader application become unnecessarily bloated, see below. [ ... ] Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: My Windows 7 C:\Program Files (x86)\Adobe\Reader 10.0\ folder is 181 MB. Where do you get the 6 GB? I simply right clicked on the folder that contains adobe reader 9 and nothing else, the rest of the Adobe products are in a folder one level up that also contains the reader folder, in any case when I click properties, that is the size it lists, in fact to be more exact 6.2 gigabytes. I did the same with the folder containing LibreOffice, and it listed the size of that as 475 megabytes. So I am pretty much forced to believe it. Perhaps Adobe is going in the right direction again in the transition from reader 9 to reader 10, and dumping some unnecessary crap. [ ... ] -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 17:06:17 -0400 Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote: Charles H. Schultz has informed us that the OASIS group has no intention of embedding fonts for v.1.2, 1.3 or any future versions, so getting the same type of fidelity from a LibreOffice Reader will not be possible. In this case, if one were to wish to print from the LibO Reader, if the font used in the document is absent from the system, then the system would look for the closest approximate font to the original font. That's one of the reasons why I prefer to distribute the final version of a document as PDF, which is pretty well supported by LibreOffice. So, getting the same quality of print from a LibreOffice Reader would not be possible without having the font embedded in the file. I still think that a LibreOffice Reader would be useful for those who do not have the LibreOffice suite installed on their machine. In this case they would most likely have another office suite or text processing program installed. Since we are using a standard file format, they should be able to use our document with their software. Isn't that one of the advantages of a standard document format? Being independent from the specific text program and it's vendor? This would give the user the choice of using the reader to view the file without the need of the full-blown suite and without having the need to use the Acrobat Reader. As mentioned there is no need to use Acrobat Reader, there are other more lightweight readers available. I still believe that PDF is the best solution to distribute final versions of text (and mybe other office) documents. For testing purposes I've just installed Okular under Windows and it was really easy (See http://windows.kde.org/). Again, our user base and the fact that our reader would be created in-house would be enough to give the LibreOffice Reader enough impetuous for adoption by our users and non-users of the suite. Not sure that our users really need an additional reader version of LibreOffice since that have already the complete suite installed. There is one use-case I could think of though: If the reader would be leightweight and easy to install and would be able to run open document presentations, it might be handy to use for presentations at different locations or to pass along with the impress file. I think supplying a LibreOffice Reader is just as important as providing the plugins needed for viewing files in a browser (LibreOffice Tools-Internet-Browser plug-in). Providing tools to popularize our distro is important. Manfred -- Manfred Usselmann usselman...@icg-online.de ICG IT Consulting GmbH, Kelkheim -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
Manfred wrote: I still believe that PDF is the best solution to distribute final versions of text (and maybe other office) documents. I'd say yes if they are likely to be printed on paper, no if it is only likely to be read from a screen. Snag is desktop office software originates from a time when all documents were printed to paper, this is no longer the case. Why waste time replicating stuff that is already well-supported and not going anywhere? Better to at least make some steps towards the future which is HTML 5 and browsers rather than systems driven operating systems. Short term popularity raising is not going to protect against longer term obsolescence. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
On 25 June 2011 10:02, timofonic timofonic timofo...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 3:42 AM, Nuno J. Silva nunojsi...@ist.utl.pt wrote: On 2011-06-24, Andrea Pescetti wrote: Marc Paré wrote: if we were to promote a quick and dirty LibreOffice Reader, very much like the Adobe Acrobat Reader, whose sole purpose is to provide the ability to read .odt files, there would be no need to carry .pdf formatted files. Heh. :-) Don't use Adobe Reader as an example of a reader, use instead some other PDF reader with a reasonable memory and disk space footprint. (Unless that's what you meant by quick and dirty.) This, however, won't work. Document fidelity is not the aim of ODT files, while it is the aim of PDF files (example: font embedding, but one could find many more). Replacing PDF by ODT is just not feasible due to the formats themselves, not to the lack of an ODF Reader. Font embedding is an issue, it could render the viewer useless. It's possible, at least, to make some room for compatible documents, by shipping a set of fonts with the viewer and announcing that as the standard fonts for ODF viewer. Unless there's some required feature of ODT that's not possible to reproduce in PDF, I suggest keeping with PDF for now: it is designed for portability and it's vectorial, so there's no loss. Someone suggested djvu (DeJaVU). I like djvu, I use it and I and spread the word about it, but IMHO it's main use is for scanned documents (making it so entire books can fit in a floppy!). Even if a pdf is larger than a djvu for the same document, if it was directly exported to pdf, it's vectorial. Converting to djvu makes it raster. IMHO that's a bad idea. YMMV. Are you sure about that? If yes, maybe there should be a Version 28 with those improvements and more. Maybe DjVu format could get more succesful if TDF adopts it and promotes it as OASIS OpenDocument format (ODR?). It's the missing leg for the OpenDocument file format collection, I think. -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted What is the purpose of pdf? It's for putting documents on paper. If you simply want to read a document on screen use a browser. There was a project to develop a Firefox plugin through the OpenDocument Fellowship but I think it has stalled. I would rather encourage people to read screen based stuff with a browser instead of having to download pdfs when the information is rarely ever printed. If it needs to be LibO will produce a pdf to do it. Seems to me that a browser plugin is a lot simpler task and a lot more useful. Get Google to sponsor it for Chrome. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
On 25 June 2011 13:37, Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com wrote: On 25 Jun 2011, at 08:33, Ian Lynch wrote: Manfred wrote: I still believe that PDF is the best solution to distribute final versions of text (and maybe other office) documents. I'd say yes if they are likely to be printed on paper, no if it is only likely to be read from a screen. I disagree. Once a document no longer needs editing (and this is a frequent need in daily life - think purchase receipt, invoice, insurance schedule and so on) it needs to be provided in an electronic format that cannot be easily altered. PDF plays this role, ODF doesn't. In most cases those documents that you give as examples would be covered by likely to be printed on paper. That was my point, we already have pdfs for this. pdf is less than optimal for storing documents that are only viewed on screens. ODF files can be encrypted and passworded in cases where security is required so it is easy to make it difficult to alter, it's just relatively rare to need to. The world is moving to the web and desktop applications are going to have to as well. All I'm saying is why waste time on readers when getting LibO to the web is far more important. If you are going to do some sort of reader make it something relevant to where things are going not to where they have been or where need is already satisfied. It's a different issue, but I think the reliance on pdfs as not easily editable is dubious. There are plenty of pdf editors so if anyone really wants to edit a receipt or invoice stored in that way they can. If they are prepared to do unlawful things it's very unlikely that having to buy a pdf editor is going to be much of a deterrent. That is a whole area of difficulty that the paper reliant world has not come to terms with. We have it with certificates. Paper based or pdf certificates are a major cause of certification fraud because they are very easy to forge. The best way to record such evidence is in a secure database that is quick and easy to authenticate against. I can see a time when paper based documents are in a small minority and important information will be in encrypted databases where making it secure is much easier. Question is where does LibO fit into that world? S. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 5:27 PM, Nuno J. Silva nunojsi...@ist.utl.ptwrote: On 2011-06-24, Robert Derman wrote: Varun Mittal wrote: I personally feel we have more important set of priorities than diversifying right now into PDF reader. Also no point inventing the wheel again when there are several open source pdf readers available which we can integrate instead of developing one of our own. I am wondering do any of the open source pdf readers mentioned above work with Windows or are they all Linux, I mostly use Windows. What I meant by HUGE when I referred to Adobe Reader was the more than 6 Gigs of hard drive space it takes up! By contrast all of the LibreOffice suite of programs takes up 475 Megs of space. That means that a mere reader takes up more than a dozen times the space of an entire office suite. If that isn't mega-bloat I don't know what is. It has been a long time, but I seem to remember Adobe Reader only taking 12 Megs of space at one time. It used to come included on almost all driver disks, now it is just too big for that. Adobe Reader is the only bloated PDF reader I've seen so far, when it comes to runtime. Heavy, slow to launch. I know Evince runs in Windows, just see its download page I will suggest you to investigate poppler rather than evince. Most floss pdf viewers really are based of propper which is the native renderer for this. Both Evince and Okular for example uses this. http://poppler.freedesktop.org/ http://live.gnome.org/Evince/Downloads Or a direct link to the current version: http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/binaries/win32/evince/2.32/evince-2.32.0-144.1.msi Evince 2.30.3 in a Windows VM I have around takes 70.3 MiB of disk space. Now I guess part of that are the dependencies, libraries that are frequently around in GNU/Linux but must be supplied in windows. OTOH it's way lighter than Adobe Reader, and it supports more than just PDF (it also supports PostScript, DeJaVU and LaTeX DeVice Independent; it's able to handle comics packed in some compression formats (cbr, cbz and others)). Coming back on-topic, there was once some talk about adding [to Evince] support for viewing editable documents. The following reply by a member of the Evince team, who says why he thinks it shouldn't be done, sounds interesting in the context of this thread (the one I'm replying to): http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2005-April/msg00159.html There are also some comments on their wiki webpage (see the last section, /Possible or Planned to Support/): http://live.gnome.org/Evince/SupportedDocumentFormats My 2 cents ! My 2 cents, too. So total = 4 ;-) -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- *Alexandro Colorado* *OpenOffice.org* Español http://es.openoffice.org -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: My Windows 7 C:\Program Files (x86)\Adobe\Reader 10.0\ folder is 181 MB. Where do you get the 6 GB? I simply right clicked on the folder that contains adobe reader 9 and nothing else, the rest of the Adobe products are in a folder one level up that also contains the reader folder, in any case when I click properties, that is the size it lists, in fact to be more exact 6.2 gigabytes. I did the same with the folder containing LibreOffice, and it listed the size of that as 475 megabytes. So I am pretty much forced to believe it. Perhaps Adobe is going in the right direction again in the transition from reader 9 to reader 10, and dumping some unnecessary crap. -Original Message- From: Robert Derman [mailto:robert.der...@pressenter.com] Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 21:24 To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader [ ... ] What I meant by HUGE when I referred to Adobe Reader was the more than 6 Gigs of hard drive space it takes up! By contrast all of the LibreOffice suite of programs takes up 475 Megs of space. That means that a mere reader takes up more than a dozen times the space of an entire office suite. If that isn't mega-bloat I don't know what is. It has been a long time, but I seem to remember Adobe Reader only taking 12 Megs of space at one time. It used to come included on almost all driver disks, now it is just too big for that. [ ... ] -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 7:37 AM, Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com wrote: On 25 Jun 2011, at 08:33, Ian Lynch wrote: Manfred wrote: I still believe that PDF is the best solution to distribute final versions of text (and maybe other office) documents. I'd say yes if they are likely to be printed on paper, no if it is only likely to be read from a screen. I disagree. Once a document no longer needs editing (and this is a frequent need in daily life - think purchase receipt, invoice, insurance schedule and so on) it needs to be provided in an electronic format that cannot be easily altered. PDF plays this role, ODF doesn't. No, but HTML does. More to the point, chm files also are build for read-only. Surely they are more microsoft based, but even Read (activity from the OLPC/Sugar), had to add a webkit renderer for another popular format -- epub. Which of course is done for read-only porpouses. So a bigger discussion than demanding PDF reader, might be to upgrade the very old HTML renderer in LibreOffice to something like webkit. S. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- *Alexandro Colorado* *OpenOffice.org* Español http://es.openoffice.org -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
I dont thinks thats normal somehow, i have been using Adobe Reader for years and have NEVER had it come past 200MB. Back to discussion, what's with all the PDF hate. It serves a very good purpose a standard, editable document that shows up exactly how you want it WHEREVER you are and whatever OS you are using. this has always been its use and so it falls in a different document category to ODF. ODF is an office format created to compete with MSO's doc, xls an ppt formats. to essentially modify the underlying purpose to make it behave more like a PDF would waste most of what we have put into it. On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 5:04 AM, Robert Derman robert.der...@pressenter.com wrote: Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: My Windows 7 C:\Program Files (x86)\Adobe\Reader 10.0\ folder is 181 MB. Where do you get the 6 GB? I simply right clicked on the folder that contains adobe reader 9 and nothing else, the rest of the Adobe products are in a folder one level up that also contains the reader folder, in any case when I click properties, that is the size it lists, in fact to be more exact 6.2 gigabytes. I did the same with the folder containing LibreOffice, and it listed the size of that as 475 megabytes. So I am pretty much forced to believe it. Perhaps Adobe is going in the right direction again in the transition from reader 9 to reader 10, and dumping some unnecessary crap. -Original Message- From: Robert Derman [mailto:robert.der...@pressenter.com] Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 21:24 To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader [ ... ] What I meant by HUGE when I referred to Adobe Reader was the more than 6 Gigs of hard drive space it takes up! By contrast all of the LibreOffice suite of programs takes up 475 Megs of space. That means that a mere reader takes up more than a dozen times the space of an entire office suite. If that isn't mega-bloat I don't know what is. It has been a long time, but I seem to remember Adobe Reader only taking 12 Megs of space at one time. It used to come included on almost all driver disks, now it is just too big for that. [ ... ] -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Sean White, I've Seen the Cow Level -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
Le 2011-06-24 01:55, Mike Hall a écrit : On 24/06/2011 03:59, Marc Paré wrote: Marc Paré wrote: This thread is really about proposing, to the devs, the possibility of creating a LibreOffice Reader similar to the Adobe .pdf Reader. This could be an idea to investigate, but I don't know how feasible it is; actually there is (or used to be) a read only mode in OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice, but if I recall correctly the LibreOffice developers hated it. if we were to promote a quick and dirty LibreOffice Reader, very much like the Adobe Acrobat Reader, whose sole purpose is to provide the ability to read .odt files, there would be no need to carry .pdf formatted files. This, however, won't work. Document fidelity is not the aim of ODT files, while it is the aim of PDF files (example: font embedding, but one could find many more). Replacing PDF by ODT is just not feasible due to the formats themselves, not to the lack of an ODF Reader. Regards, Andrea. The initial use of the LibreOffice Reader would be just a plain reader, the challenge after this would be to try to build as much document fidelity into it as possible. Again, with the hopes to rival .pdf fidelity. Maybe once all the devs put their heads together, they may come up with some way to do this. Let's not forget that the Djvu people accomplished this to some extent. If we were to work at it we could surprise everyone. There is always the possibility of submitting any changes to the ODF, that could enhance the formats, through the possible channels at the ISO and OASIS of which we are members. Cheers Marc As Andrea states, the point about PDF is that it 'locks in' the format of a document, allowing it to be displayed or printed everywhere as the user intended. All other formats created by word processors, including MS Office and LibO, will display and print differently on different computers, depending for example on the specific printer a user has installed. I doubt that this is something that could readily be fixed by tweaking ODF, it's fundamental to the way all word processors work. I also believe that any diversion of scarce DEV effort would inevitably move the focus further away from fixing the many bugs still in LibO, which would be counter-productive. -1 This is only a discussion on the topic and does not mean that any groups will commit to it. It is just a discussion about the feasibility of creating a LibreOffice Reader and whether it would be worth it. Whether or not we have enough devs do not really matter at this point. As for locking in the format of a document, surely this could also be done with ODF files even if it meant proposing changes to the ODF formats themselves through ISO OASIS group as well as keeping functionality with office suites making use of the format such as LibreOffice. Also, IMO, there is never a good time to suggest a new project for any active group (dev, design, marketing, documentation etc.) as these groups are always too busy ... but projects do get queued up and eventually looked at. Such is the nature of large projects beasts such as LibreOffice. Cheers Marc -- Marc Paré http://www.parEntreprise.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 6:23 AM, Robert Derman robert.der...@pressenter.com wrote: Varun Mittal wrote: I personally feel we have more important set of priorities than diversifying right now into PDF reader. Also no point inventing the wheel again when there are several open source pdf readers available which we can integrate instead of developing one of our own. I am wondering do any of the open source pdf readers mentioned above work with Windows or are they all Linux, I mostly use Windows. Okular should work on windows. -Todd -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
On 24/06/2011 03:59, Marc Paré wrote: The initial use of the LibreOffice Reader would be just a plain reader, the challenge after this would be to try to build as much document fidelity into it as possible. Again, with the hopes to rival .pdf fidelity. Maybe once all the devs put their heads together, they may come up with some way to do this. Let's not forget that the Djvu people accomplished this to some extent. If we were to work at it we could surprise everyone. There is always the possibility of submitting any changes to the ODF, that could enhance the formats, through the possible channels at the ISO and OASIS of which we are members. As Andrea states, the point about PDF is that it 'locks in' the format of a document, allowing it to be displayed or printed everywhere as the user intended. All other formats created by word processors, including MS Office and LibO, will display and print differently on different computers, depending for example on the specific printer a user has installed. I doubt that this is something that could readily be fixed by tweaking ODF, it's fundamental to the way all word processors work. I also believe that any diversion of scarce DEV effort would inevitably move the focus further away from fixing the many bugs still in LibO, which would be counter-productive. -1 Right now LibreOffice is capable of creating PDF files. Which leads me to believe that creating a reader for ODF and at some point giving ODF some of the capabilities of PDF couldn't be all that difficult. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
Le 2011-06-24 14:34, Robert Derman a écrit : On 24/06/2011 03:59, Marc Paré wrote: The initial use of the LibreOffice Reader would be just a plain reader, the challenge after this would be to try to build as much document fidelity into it as possible. Again, with the hopes to rival .pdf fidelity. Maybe once all the devs put their heads together, they may come up with some way to do this. Let's not forget that the Djvu people accomplished this to some extent. If we were to work at it we could surprise everyone. There is always the possibility of submitting any changes to the ODF, that could enhance the formats, through the possible channels at the ISO and OASIS of which we are members. As Andrea states, the point about PDF is that it 'locks in' the format of a document, allowing it to be displayed or printed everywhere as the user intended. All other formats created by word processors, including MS Office and LibO, will display and print differently on different computers, depending for example on the specific printer a user has installed. I doubt that this is something that could readily be fixed by tweaking ODF, it's fundamental to the way all word processors work. I also believe that any diversion of scarce DEV effort would inevitably move the focus further away from fixing the many bugs still in LibO, which would be counter-productive. -1 Right now LibreOffice is capable of creating PDF files. Which leads me to believe that creating a reader for ODF and at some point giving ODF some of the capabilities of PDF couldn't be all that difficult. Charles H. Schultz has informed us that the OASIS group has no intention of embedding fonts for v.1.2, 1.3 or any future versions, so getting the same type of fidelity from a LibreOffice Reader will not be possible. In this case, if one were to wish to print from the LibO Reader, if the font used in the document is absent from the system, then the system would look for the closest approximate font to the original font. So, getting the same quality of print from a LibreOffice Reader would not be possible without having the font embedded in the file. I still think that a LibreOffice Reader would be useful for those who do not have the LibreOffice suite installed on their machine. This would give the user the choice of using the reader to view the file without the need of the full-blown suite and without having the need to use the Acrobat Reader. Again, our user base and the fact that our reader would be created in-house would be enough to give the LibreOffice Reader enough impetuous for adoption by our users and non-users of the suite. I think supplying a LibreOffice Reader is just as important as providing the plugins needed for viewing files in a browser (LibreOffice Tools-Internet-Browser plug-in). Providing tools to popularize our distro is important. Cheers Marc -- Marc Paré http://www.parEntreprise.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
On 24/06/2011 00:30, Antonio Olivares wrote: I like the idea, don't get me wrong. +1 it is hard for developers out there to make just a viewer when some other folks have that :( already. This is the type of project that might be more suitable for the Apache Software Foundation. My $0.04 (previous $0.02 + this $0.02) don't add sales tax please :) A user fee of one cent will be added. This user fee is separate from, and in addition to any sales tax that might be assessed. jonathon -- If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting. If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth requesting. DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
Le 2011-06-24 17:08, toki a écrit : it is hard for developers out there to make just a viewer when some other folks have that :( already. This is the type of project that might be more suitable for the Apache Software Foundation. My $0.04 (previous $0.02 + this $0.02) don't add sales tax please :) A user fee of one cent will be added. This user fee is separate from, and in addition to any sales tax that might be assessed. jonathon Now, now. What's good for the ASF is also good for us. :-) Cheers Marc -- Marc Paré http://www.parEntreprise.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
Marc Paré wrote: This thread is really about proposing, to the devs, the possibility of creating a LibreOffice Reader similar to the Adobe .pdf Reader. This could be an idea to investigate, but I don't know how feasible it is; actually there is (or used to be) a read only mode in OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice, but if I recall correctly the LibreOffice developers hated it. if we were to promote a quick and dirty LibreOffice Reader, very much like the Adobe Acrobat Reader, whose sole purpose is to provide the ability to read .odt files, there would be no need to carry .pdf formatted files. This, however, won't work. Document fidelity is not the aim of ODT files, while it is the aim of PDF files (example: font embedding, but one could find many more). Replacing PDF by ODT is just not feasible due to the formats themselves, not to the lack of an ODF Reader. Regards, Andrea. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
Simon Phipps wrote: On 23 Jun 2011, at 23:32, Marc Paré wrote: I think it was mentioned that there were at one point over 100 million LibreOffice/OOo users. If we were to develop our own LibreOffice Reader we would already have 100 million potential users for our product. Not only that, the LibreOffice Reader would be compatible with the LibreOffice suite and possibly code. This would give the LibO Reader a good start. ODF and PDF are actually complementary. One is a format for editable documents, the other is a format for final-form documents. I suggest that the best path forward would be to seek a single, lightweight, cross-platform reader for both formats. That would address by far the largest opportunity. S. IIRC Adobe Reader has bloated over the last couple of years from a very lean program for reading PDF files to something very huge. Also the auto update updates versions all too frequently. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
--- On Thu, 6/23/11, Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote: From: Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Date: Thursday, June 23, 2011, 3:32 PM Hi Antonio Le 2011-06-23 18:05, Antonio Olivares a écrit : Marc, Idea sounds good, but there is also another competitor out there to the famous PDF : http://djvu.sourceforge.net/ How about adding editing/viewing djvu compatibility to LibreOffice too? I for one (except under windows) use evince/okular/xpdf or other free viewers out there as opposed to using Acrobat Reader :) Having LibreOffice open word/excel/powerpoint/pdf is excellent, but adding djvu will also enhance it and make it even better (others don't have this capability). But keep the full suite, don't worry about a reader some folks already have a odt/doc/xls viewer on the windows side: http://www.officeviewers.com/ Someone mentioned this, I think that it would be not necessary to ask programmer to make a reader? Doing more work when other similar software exists? Unless if that software is (NOT FREE)/(OPEN SOURCE), there would be little to no gains if a LibreOffice Reader is created? BTW I am a LibreOffice user not a programmer and happily use it on Windows, Linux, and FreeBSD. Just my $0.02. Regards, Antonio I also use Okular, although, I have found some cases where it would not print some .pdf's correctly. Djvu is neat, however, it is still struggling trying to make headway in being adopted. I think it was mentioned that there were at one point over 100 million LibreOffice/OOo users. If we were to develop our own LibreOffice Reader we would already have 100 million potential users for our product. Not only that, the LibreOffice Reader would be compatible with the LibreOffice suite and possibly code. This would give the LibO Reader a good start. Cheers Marc -- @Mark others I like the idea, don't get me wrong. But sadly it is hard for developers out there to make just a viewer when some other folks have that :( already. It would be nice if more people, sed -i 's|people|users|g' out there would use the OpenDocument format (*.odt) and not pdf to share documents, then the idea would become more intriguing. This new viewer would have to compete against those viewers that exist plus Google Docs :(, which I don't know if it* supports OpenDocument Format (*.odt) files? Sadly, it is *very difficult* to change people's minds when it comes to document standards and formats. I agree with folks that mention that Adobe has become a **bloated monster** that used to be lean and excellent, and with its increasing bloat there also comes security issues and constant updates :( My $0.04 (previous $0.02 + this $0.02) don't add sales tax please :) Regards, Antonio -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
On 2011-06-24, Andrea Pescetti wrote: Marc Paré wrote: if we were to promote a quick and dirty LibreOffice Reader, very much like the Adobe Acrobat Reader, whose sole purpose is to provide the ability to read .odt files, there would be no need to carry .pdf formatted files. Heh. :-) Don't use Adobe Reader as an example of a reader, use instead some other PDF reader with a reasonable memory and disk space footprint. (Unless that's what you meant by quick and dirty.) This, however, won't work. Document fidelity is not the aim of ODT files, while it is the aim of PDF files (example: font embedding, but one could find many more). Replacing PDF by ODT is just not feasible due to the formats themselves, not to the lack of an ODF Reader. Font embedding is an issue, it could render the viewer useless. It's possible, at least, to make some room for compatible documents, by shipping a set of fonts with the viewer and announcing that as the standard fonts for ODF viewer. Unless there's some required feature of ODT that's not possible to reproduce in PDF, I suggest keeping with PDF for now: it is designed for portability and it's vectorial, so there's no loss. Someone suggested djvu (DeJaVU). I like djvu, I use it and I and spread the word about it, but IMHO it's main use is for scanned documents (making it so entire books can fit in a floppy!). Even if a pdf is larger than a djvu for the same document, if it was directly exported to pdf, it's vectorial. Converting to djvu makes it raster. IMHO that's a bad idea. YMMV. -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
@Mark others I like the idea, don't get me wrong. But sadly it is hard for developers out there to make just a viewer when some other folks have that :( already. It would be nice if more people, sed -i 's|people|users|g' out there would use the OpenDocument format (*.odt) and not pdf to share documents, then the idea would become more intriguing. This new viewer would have to compete against those viewers that exist plus Google Docs :(, which I don't know if it* supports OpenDocument Format (*.odt) files? Sadly, it is *very difficult* to change people's minds when it comes to document standards and formats. I agree with folks that mention that Adobe has become a **bloated monster** that used to be lean and excellent, and with its increasing bloat there also comes security issues and constant updates :( My $0.04 (previous $0.02 + this $0.02) don't add sales tax please :) Regards, Antonio It does seem that we already have a usership 100 million users. If this is true, then that would in itself make for a good base of users to create such a piece of software. As we are opensource, there is nothing wrong with if other folks alread have a viewer. However, the upside, is that our viewer would come from the makers of the actual pices of software from which people make the most use of the ODF. Cheers Marc -- Marc Paré http://www.parEntreprise.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
Simon Phipps wrote: On 23 Jun 2011, at 23:32, Marc Paré wrote: I think it was mentioned that there were at one point over 100 million LibreOffice/OOo users. If we were to develop our own LibreOffice Reader we would already have 100 million potential users for our product. Not only that, the LibreOffice Reader would be compatible with the LibreOffice suite and possibly code. This would give the LibO Reader a good start. ODF and PDF are actually complementary. One is a format for editable documents, the other is a format for final-form documents. I suggest that the best path forward would be to seek a single, lightweight, cross-platform reader for both formats. That would address by far the largest opportunity. S. IIRC Adobe Reader has bloated over the last couple of years from a very lean program for reading PDF files to something very huge. Also the auto update updates versions all too frequently. I can't see a reason for which we could not create a competitive product that does not align itself with Adobre Reader. Our user base will create enough initial impetus to create a need as well as create buzz over the software. Cheers Marc -- Marc Paré http://www.parEntreprise.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 17:40 -0400, Marc Paré wrote: OK, this is just a teaser to entice people into a discussion of the following proposal. There is talk on the documentation list of the formats made available to users of our documents (manuals, reference books, etc). These for now are in .odt (ODF) and .pdf (Adobe) and possibly .html (being discussed on the documentation list). Hi Marc, Well when you say .pdf you mean a file descriptor. How about we rather talk about ISO 3200-1, a standard often called PDF 1.7. Perhaps we could talk about PDF/A as a standard. (Laughing, that is sure to get a response...) OK - so a LibreOffice reader? I would say what about an ODF reader and there are already a few: http://odf-viewer.findmysoft.com/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/odfreader/ Then there are a few for mobile platforms: Android, iOS and Palm The root problem IMO is that ODF isn't designed to do what PDF is designed to do, meaning simply that each has a place and a purpose. But that doesn't there isn't some room for an ODF reader with some tie in with LibreOffice branding, per se. Just my thought on this anyway. big snip Thanks, Drew Thanks, this in itself does support my point. Plus there is nothing to stop LibreOffice from being innovative and eventually serve up a piece of software that does exactly serve up the same quality of document as .pdf and at the same time allow for the editing of this standard through the regular use of ODF. We do have the user support and I am not sure, but our dev numbers are up and I think that this would make quite an interesting and exciting project to add to the TDF line of products. Plus, the LibreOffice Reader would be available from the makers of the LibreOffice Suite group. There is nothing better than to offer up a family of software products that play well together and opensource as well. Cheers Marc -- Marc Paré http://www.parEntreprise.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
Marc Paré wrote: This thread is really about proposing, to the devs, the possibility of creating a LibreOffice Reader similar to the Adobe .pdf Reader. This could be an idea to investigate, but I don't know how feasible it is; actually there is (or used to be) a read only mode in OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice, but if I recall correctly the LibreOffice developers hated it. if we were to promote a quick and dirty LibreOffice Reader, very much like the Adobe Acrobat Reader, whose sole purpose is to provide the ability to read .odt files, there would be no need to carry .pdf formatted files. This, however, won't work. Document fidelity is not the aim of ODT files, while it is the aim of PDF files (example: font embedding, but one could find many more). Replacing PDF by ODT is just not feasible due to the formats themselves, not to the lack of an ODF Reader. Regards, Andrea. The initial use of the LibreOffice Reader would be just a plain reader, the challenge after this would be to try to build as much document fidelity into it as possible. Again, with the hopes to rival .pdf fidelity. Maybe once all the devs put their heads together, they may come up with some way to do this. Let's not forget that the Djvu people accomplished this to some extent. If we were to work at it we could surprise everyone. There is always the possibility of submitting any changes to the ODF, that could enhance the formats, through the possible channels at the ISO and OASIS of which we are members. Cheers Marc -- Marc Paré http://www.parEntreprise.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
I personally feel we have more important set of priorities than diversifying right now into PDF reader. Also no point inventing the wheel again when there are several open source pdf readers available which we can integrate instead of developing one of our own. Won't it be a better idea to collaborate with one of the groups supporting the pdf readers available in Linux distros ...Such cooperation will help everyone focus on their core competencies. My 2 cents ! Thank You Best Regards Varun Mittal https://www.google.com/profiles/varunmittal87Member, The Document Foundation Moderator, Mailing Lists Blog http://www.varunmittal.info Facebookhttp://www.facebook.com/mittal.varun LinkedIn http://www.linkedin.com/in/varunmittal87 Twitter http://twitter.com/varunmittal19 Uncertainty is the only Certainty of LIFE On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote: and at the same time allow for the editing of this standard through the regular use of ODF. We do have the user support and I am not sure, but our dev numbers are up and I think that this would make quite an interesting and exciting project to add to the TDF line of products. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
On 23 June 2011 22:40, Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote: OK, this is just a teaser to entice people into a discussion of the following proposal. There is talk on the documentation list of the formats made available to users of our documents (manuals, reference books, etc). These for now are in .odt (ODF) and .pdf (Adobe) and possibly .html (being discussed on the documentation list). The purpose of this particular thread is NOT to continue the documentation thread on the merits of providing particular formats. If you are interested in taking this up, it is already being discussed on the documentation list. This thread is really about proposing, to the devs, the possibility of creating a LibreOffice Reader similar to the Adobe .pdf Reader. The idea is that, we are in a particularly advantageous position of providing an excellent popular office suite with a solid and well documented format (ODF) and, if we were to promote a quick and dirty LibreOffice Reader, very much like the Adobe Acrobat Reader, whose sole purpose is to provide the ability to read .odt files, there would be no need to carry .pdf formatted files. I would like to propose the following for discussion: The LibreOffice Reader would have the following characteristics: * small footprint * capable of reading ODF formatted files ONLY and .odt in particular * only capable of reading and form filling, NO editing capabilities (these are left to the expertise of the LibreOffice suite) * be able to interpret any of the LibreOffice highlighting effects and weblinking abilities * as much as possible code should not stray too far from the LibreOffice code in order to avoid a new divergent branch of software * TDF adopt LibreOffice Reader as its first secondary software project If, such a project were adopted, LibreOffice could then be adapted in such a way as to complement the LibreOffice Reader, very much like the relationship of the Adobe Acrobat list of software (Acrobat X Pro etc.) and their relationship with Acrobat Reader. The LibreOffice suite could have added functionality that would be compatible with the LibreOffice Reader and offer interested users, an opensource alternative to the .pdf format. Cheers Marc Main problem is you are effectively competing with MS Office readers that do a similar job wit .doc but have never displaced pdf. So I think the chances of a LibO reader displacing pdf are not very high. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
Le 2011-06-23 17:48, Ian Lynch a écrit : Main problem is you are effectively competing with MS Office readers that do a similar job wit .doc but have never displaced pdf. So I think the chances of a LibO reader displacing pdf are not very high. IMO, we can take into account the MSO readers, but the question is to try compete with a more proven product and not worry about one that we all complain as being inferior. Perhaps the reason it has not been adopted is the quality of results. Cheers Marc -- Marc Paré http://www.parEntreprise.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
Le 2011-06-23 22:59, Varun Mittal a écrit : I personally feel we have more important set of priorities than diversifying right now into PDF reader. Also no point inventing the wheel again when there are several open source pdf readers available which we can integrate instead of developing one of our own. Won't it be a better idea to collaborate with one of the groups supporting the pdf readers available in Linux distros ...Such cooperation will help everyone focus on their core competencies. My 2 cents ! Thank You Best Regards Varun Mittal This is just to discuss the topic not to commit to it. Why should we make use of another document format when we are trying to promote a competing document format? If we can, then we could try to offer complementary software as in our own in-house reader and then raise the bar by trying to accomplish the quality achieved in .pdf format. Cheers Marc -- Marc Paré http://www.parEntreprise.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
Varun Mittal wrote: I personally feel we have more important set of priorities than diversifying right now into PDF reader. Also no point inventing the wheel again when there are several open source pdf readers available which we can integrate instead of developing one of our own. I am wondering do any of the open source pdf readers mentioned above work with Windows or are they all Linux, I mostly use Windows. What I meant by HUGE when I referred to Adobe Reader was the more than 6 Gigs of hard drive space it takes up! By contrast all of the LibreOffice suite of programs takes up 475 Megs of space. That means that a mere reader takes up more than a dozen times the space of an entire office suite. If that isn't mega-bloat I don't know what is. It has been a long time, but I seem to remember Adobe Reader only taking 12 Megs of space at one time. It used to come included on almost all driver disks, now it is just too big for that. Won't it be a better idea to collaborate with one of the groups supporting the pdf readers available in Linux distros ...Such cooperation will help everyone focus on their core competencies. My 2 cents ! Thank You Best Regards Varun Mittal and at the same time allow for the editing of this standard through the regular use of ODF. We do have the user support and I am not sure, but our dev numbers are up and I think that this would make quite an interesting and exciting project to add to the TDF line of products. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
I use a pdf reader called foxit when I am forced to fire up my windows VMs. I am not sure of its licensing. On Jun 24, 2011 12:26 AM, Robert Derman robert.der...@pressenter.com wrote: Varun Mittal wrote: I personally feel we have more important set of priorities than diversifying right now into PDF reader. Also no point inventing the wheel again when there are several open source pdf readers available which we can integrate instead of developing one of our own. I am wondering do any of the open source pdf readers mentioned above work with Windows or are they all Linux, I mostly use Windows. What I meant by HUGE when I referred to Adobe Reader was the more than 6 Gigs of hard drive space it takes up! By contrast all of the LibreOffice suite of programs takes up 475 Megs of space. That means that a mere reader takes up more than a dozen times the space of an entire office suite. If that isn't mega-bloat I don't know what is. It has been a long time, but I seem to remember Adobe Reader only taking 12 Megs of space at one time. It used to come included on almost all driver disks, now it is just too big for that. Won't it be a better idea to collaborate with one of the groups supporting the pdf readers available in Linux distros ...Such cooperation will help everyone focus on their core competencies. My 2 cents ! Thank You Best Regards Varun Mittal and at the same time allow for the editing of this standard through the regular use of ODF. We do have the user support and I am not sure, but our dev numbers are up and I think that this would make quite an interesting and exciting project to add to the TDF line of products. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
My Windows 7 C:\Program Files (x86)\Adobe\Reader 10.0\ folder is 181 MB. Where do you get the 6 GB? -Original Message- From: Robert Derman [mailto:robert.der...@pressenter.com] Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 21:24 To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader [ ... ] What I meant by HUGE when I referred to Adobe Reader was the more than 6 Gigs of hard drive space it takes up! By contrast all of the LibreOffice suite of programs takes up 475 Megs of space. That means that a mere reader takes up more than a dozen times the space of an entire office suite. If that isn't mega-bloat I don't know what is. It has been a long time, but I seem to remember Adobe Reader only taking 12 Megs of space at one time. It used to come included on almost all driver disks, now it is just too big for that. [ ... ] -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
On 24/06/2011 03:59, Marc Paré wrote: Marc Paré wrote: This thread is really about proposing, to the devs, the possibility of creating a LibreOffice Reader similar to the Adobe .pdf Reader. This could be an idea to investigate, but I don't know how feasible it is; actually there is (or used to be) a read only mode in OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice, but if I recall correctly the LibreOffice developers hated it. if we were to promote a quick and dirty LibreOffice Reader, very much like the Adobe Acrobat Reader, whose sole purpose is to provide the ability to read .odt files, there would be no need to carry .pdf formatted files. This, however, won't work. Document fidelity is not the aim of ODT files, while it is the aim of PDF files (example: font embedding, but one could find many more). Replacing PDF by ODT is just not feasible due to the formats themselves, not to the lack of an ODF Reader. Regards, Andrea. The initial use of the LibreOffice Reader would be just a plain reader, the challenge after this would be to try to build as much document fidelity into it as possible. Again, with the hopes to rival .pdf fidelity. Maybe once all the devs put their heads together, they may come up with some way to do this. Let's not forget that the Djvu people accomplished this to some extent. If we were to work at it we could surprise everyone. There is always the possibility of submitting any changes to the ODF, that could enhance the formats, through the possible channels at the ISO and OASIS of which we are members. Cheers Marc As Andrea states, the point about PDF is that it 'locks in' the format of a document, allowing it to be displayed or printed everywhere as the user intended. All other formats created by word processors, including MS Office and LibO, will display and print differently on different computers, depending for example on the specific printer a user has installed. I doubt that this is something that could readily be fixed by tweaking ODF, it's fundamental to the way all word processors work. I also believe that any diversion of scarce DEV effort would inevitably move the focus further away from fixing the many bugs still in LibO, which would be counter-productive. -1 -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
