Re: Candidacy FSFE Fellowship Representative

2016-04-18 Thread Werner Koch 
On Mon, 18 Apr 2016 18:05, joe.a...@gmail.com said:
> Thinking my candidacy can be flushed away with a torrent of legal

Your are simply jumping too late onto the train.  There are rules for
elections which can't be changed on the request from a potential new
candidate who missed the deadline.  That is unfortunate for us all but
this is how things work.

Now, it might happen that an elected candidate won't accept his election
or someone will contest the election.  In both cases it is possible that
we will have a new election.  A new election with the same rules but
this time with you being able to candidate.

BTW: It is not to uncommon that there is only one candidate; for example
see the Debian elections from 2011: https://lwn.net/Articles/438923/


Shalom-Salam,

   Werner

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Re: Candidacy FSFE Fellowship Representative

2016-04-18 Thread Joe Awni 
As candidate, i would aggressively pursue FOSS goals.

I don't think its right to sweep the emotionally charged issues under the
rug like a piece of dust, and i did not criticize forks.

As poster and correspondent, i will never attempt to use dehumanizing
epithets such as "troll" on coders or non-coders.
This process of dehumanization is not welcome in the FOSS community.

Further, you inability to make specific points, instead relying on ad
hominem attacks means i dont even want to engage with you.

On 18 April 2016 at 13:25, Florian Snow  wrote:

> Hi Joe,
>
> I understand that you are frustrated, but you are behaving like a troll,
> so please also understand people's reactions.  You have been offered
> help on IRC many times, but you did not want to listen and you refused
> to even give an error message or a clear description of which steps you
> took to sign up.
>
> Your messages _did_ go through to the list and Max told you so on
> Saturday.  You have still received polite responses here, motivating you
> to register as a candidate next year and your responses are often a
> mixture of conspiracy theories and completely unrelated issues.
>
> It is regrettable that developers kill themselves, but that has nothing
> to do whatsoever with the elections for a Fellowship representative.
> The person in that position has no influence on the state of mind of
> developers.  The FSFE is mainly in the business of educating the public
> about Free Software.  And one of the goals of Free Software is also to
> facilitate forks so people can compete on a level playing field.  You
> criticize forks so I don't know what to say about that.
>
> The responses about the constitution are not legal mumbo-jumbo.  You
> make more and more outrageous statements here.  I (and I think everyone
> here) appreciate your enthusiasm and energy, but you're overdoing it
> here.  Maybe you can channel that enthusiam towards something else for
> now and become a candidate next year?
>
> Happy hacking!
> Florian
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Re: Candidacy FSFE Fellowship Representative

2016-04-18 Thread Florian Snow 
Hi Joe,

I understand that you are frustrated, but you are behaving like a troll,
so please also understand people's reactions.  You have been offered
help on IRC many times, but you did not want to listen and you refused
to even give an error message or a clear description of which steps you
took to sign up.

Your messages _did_ go through to the list and Max told you so on
Saturday.  You have still received polite responses here, motivating you
to register as a candidate next year and your responses are often a
mixture of conspiracy theories and completely unrelated issues.

It is regrettable that developers kill themselves, but that has nothing
to do whatsoever with the elections for a Fellowship representative.
The person in that position has no influence on the state of mind of
developers.  The FSFE is mainly in the business of educating the public
about Free Software.  And one of the goals of Free Software is also to
facilitate forks so people can compete on a level playing field.  You
criticize forks so I don't know what to say about that.

The responses about the constitution are not legal mumbo-jumbo.  You
make more and more outrageous statements here.  I (and I think everyone
here) appreciate your enthusiasm and energy, but you're overdoing it
here.  Maybe you can channel that enthusiam towards something else for
now and become a candidate next year?

Happy hacking!
Florian
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Re: Candidacy FSFE Fellowship Representative

2016-04-18 Thread Mauricio Nascimento 
 

I think you should grow up and have a bit of respect to the others. 

Cheers, 

Mauricio 

On 2016-04-18 18:05, Joe Awni wrote: 

> Thinking my candidacy can be flushed away with a torrent of legal mumbo-jumbo 
> emails messages? 
> 
> The Free Software movement is not some soft white absorbed fabric you can use 
> to mop up the murky reality and discard when convenient nor is that the 
> purpose of your country's legal system.
> 
> Please see my original message, preserved for posterity: 
> https://cryptobiz.directory/pub/document?getDoc=umZPtBk1XI7zGtMJjNygNtM0v4u1IAp46r
>  [1]
> 
> Do they really think i will swirl down the drain never to be heard from again?
> 
> I cant blame them, more and more independent software developers are killing 
> themselves or otherwise just deign. Aaron Swartz, Ian Murdock, or very 
> recently the non-publicized untimely death of my friend Napoleon Kofi ( 
> http://napoleonkofi.me/ [2] ). I am sure there are other independent software 
> developers deign right now. Maybe we can wake up in a better world tomorrow, 
> but with out action today its very unlikely. 
> 
> I don't mean to "point fingers" but feel i would be totally remiss if i did 
> not mention the difficulties which i have faced to get my message of 
> candidacy out (especially on IRC [not even sure if they were coders]). And, 
> want to repeat my request that you please contact me!
> 
> We are not looking to the FSFE for more of the same with emphasis on MORE and 
> SAME; more similarly held elections are not the answer!
> 
> Ask yourself, at any given moment, who is representing the ideals free 
> software community? Guys in an office in Berlin or someone making GNUBurgers 
> at FOSS events?
> 
> On 18 April 2016 at 11:24, Joe Awni  wrote:
> 
> Frankly, It's not possible for you to say the donors are "feeling quite good" 
> about this (unless you are talking about a rather small sub-set of donors 
> that do not represent independent software developers) for example, I 
> donated, and i wish there was more than one candidate.
> 
> Erik, No disrespect, you know me, and you know the struggle independent Free 
> Software developers face. Sure, most people know about Linux and Firefox, but 
> beyond that are totally clueless. Almost none seem to be aware of the fact 
> larger open source projects regularly port other projects' unique features to 
> their own platform thereby depriving other developers of users and potential 
> donors.
> 
> Companies that make their profit from being known as the kings of open source 
> think it's a good thing as they leave the rest of us out. I'm not kidding, 
> while the Mozilla team was being wined and dined in Brussels after FOSDEM, i 
> was getting beat-up and mugged half a block from the university after eating 
> falafel and french fries.
> 
> So, NO - your donors do not feel quite good (unless you mean the mega-corps).
> 
> On 18 April 2016 at 10:37, Max Mehl  wrote:
> # Joe Awni [18.04.2016 @ 16:17]:
>> How do you think donors would feel that you spend time and energy to
>> offer an empty election?
> 
> I am positive they feel quite good since we comply with applicable laws
> and our own constitution. That's nothing I would like to see changed.
> 
> Please feel invited to join our Fellowship and apply for next year's
> Fellowship elections as soon as the candidature phase is opened. We are
> happy about each and every applicant.
> 
> Best,
> Max
> 
> --
> Max Mehl - FSFE Germany Coordinator - https://fsfe.org [3]
> Further contact information on www.fsfe.org/about/mehl [4]
> Private blog: blog.mehl.mx [5] | Private homepage: mehl.mx [6]
> Your donation enables our work: http://fsfe.org/donate [7]

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Links:
--
[1]
https://cryptobiz.directory/pub/document?getDoc=umZPtBk1XI7zGtMJjNygNtM0v4u1IAp46r
[2] http://napoleonkofi.me/
[3] https://fsfe.org
[4] http://www.fsfe.org/about/mehl
[5] http://blog.mehl.mx
[6] http://mehl.mx
[7] http://fsfe.org/donate
[8] https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
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Re: Candidacy FSFE Fellowship Representative

2016-04-18 Thread Joe Awni 
Thinking my candidacy can be flushed away with a torrent of legal
mumbo-jumbo emails messages?

The Free Software movement is not some soft white absorbed fabric you can
use to mop up the murky reality and discard when convenient nor is that the
purpose of your country's legal system.

Please see my original message, preserved for posterity:
https://cryptobiz.directory/pub/document?getDoc=umZPtBk1XI7zGtMJjNygNtM0v4u1IAp46r

Do they really think i will swirl down the drain never to be heard from
again?

I cant blame them, more and more independent software developers are
killing themselves or otherwise just deign. Aaron Swartz, Ian Murdock, or
very recently the non-publicized untimely death of my friend Napoleon Kofi
( http://napoleonkofi.me/ ). I am sure there are other independent software
developers deign right now. Maybe we can wake up in a better world
tomorrow, but with out action today its very unlikely.

I don't mean to "point fingers" but feel i would be totally remiss if i did
not mention the difficulties which i have faced to get my message of
candidacy out (especially on IRC [not even sure if they were coders]). And,
want to repeat my request that you please contact me!

We are not looking to the FSFE for more of the same with emphasis on MORE
and SAME; more similarly held elections are not the answer!

Ask yourself, at any given moment, who is representing the ideals free
software community? Guys in an office in Berlin or someone making
GNUBurgers at FOSS events?


On 18 April 2016 at 11:24, Joe Awni  wrote:

> Frankly, It's not possible for you to say the donors are "feeling quite
> good" about this (unless you are talking about a rather small sub-set of
> donors that do not represent independent software developers) for example,
> I donated, and i wish there was more than one candidate.
>
> Erik, No disrespect, you know me, and you know the struggle independent
> Free Software developers face. Sure, most people know about Linux and
> Firefox, but beyond that are totally clueless. Almost none seem to be aware
> of the fact larger open source projects regularly port other projects'
> unique features to their own platform thereby depriving other developers of
> users and potential donors.
>
> Companies that make their profit from being known as the kings of open
> source think it's a good thing as they leave the rest of us out. I'm not
> kidding, while the Mozilla team was being wined and dined in Brussels after
> FOSDEM, i was getting beat-up and mugged half a block from the university
> after eating falafel and french fries.
>
> So, NO - your donors do not feel quite good (unless you mean the
> mega-corps).
>
>
> On 18 April 2016 at 10:37, Max Mehl  wrote:
>
>> # Joe Awni [18.04.2016 @ 16:17]:
>> > How do you think donors would feel that you spend time and energy to
>> > offer an empty election?
>>
>> I am positive they feel quite good since we comply with applicable laws
>> and our own constitution. That's nothing I would like to see changed.
>>
>> Please feel invited to join our Fellowship and apply for next year's
>> Fellowship elections as soon as the candidature phase is opened. We are
>> happy about each and every applicant.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>> Max
>>
>> --
>> Max Mehl – FSFE Germany Coordinator – https://fsfe.org
>> Further contact information on www.fsfe.org/about/mehl
>> Private blog: blog.mehl.mx | Private homepage: mehl.mx
>> Your donation enables our work: http://fsfe.org/donate
>>
>>
>
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Re: Candidacy FSFE Fellowship Representative

2016-04-18 Thread Repentinus 
On 04/18/2016 01:28 PM, Repentinus wrote:
> greater participation in the results. These elections are not the first

participation in the elections*


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Re: Candidacy FSFE Fellowship Representative

2016-04-18 Thread Repentinus 
On 04/18/2016 01:16 PM, Joe Awni wrote:
> Are you suggesting that i am abusing you by pointing out that the
> results of an election with only one candidate are a foregone conclusion?

Concerning the low number of candidates, we at FSFE would prefer much
greater participation in the results. These elections are not the first
with only a single candidate nor are they likely to be the last. This is
suboptimal, but permitting candidates to put themselves forth at
arbitrary times is not the solution. Rather, the solution would be to
permit a no confidence vote in all candidates. If that proved to be the
winning option, the elections would be recalled for a date three months
in the future, allowing more people to put themselves forward. I will
propose the necessary constitutional amendment at the next general
assembly. However, we have to stick to the rules we have for now. I
understand this is frustrating, but it is equally frustrating for us as
we want the best Fellowship representatives we could have, which means
several candidates.



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Re: Candidacy FSFE Fellowship Representative

2016-04-18 Thread Joe Awni 
Of course.

You don't need me to tell you the result of an election with one candidate
is that the election-holders can take a long lunch break or so...

On 18 April 2016 at 09:19, Repentinus  wrote:

> On 04/18/2016 01:16 PM, Joe Awni wrote:
> > Are you suggesting that i am abusing you by pointing out that the
> > results of an election with only one candidate are a foregone conclusion?
>
> No. Please forgive me. I misunderstood you to mean that you would be
> calling new elections yourself (instead of calling the results).
>
>
> --
> Heiki Lõhmus
> Coordinator Translations
> Free Software Foundation Europe
> mailto:repenti...@fsfe.org
> xmpp:repenti...@jabber.fsfe.org
> http://blogs.fsfe.org/repentinus/
>
>
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Re: Candidacy FSFE Fellowship Representative

2016-04-18 Thread Repentinus 
On 04/18/2016 01:16 PM, Joe Awni wrote:
> Are you suggesting that i am abusing you by pointing out that the
> results of an election with only one candidate are a foregone conclusion?

No. Please forgive me. I misunderstood you to mean that you would be
calling new elections yourself (instead of calling the results).


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Re: Candidacy FSFE Fellowship Representative

2016-04-18 Thread Joe Awni 
Are you suggesting that i am abusing you by pointing out that the results
of an election with only one candidate are a foregone conclusion?

On 18 April 2016 at 09:13, Repentinus  wrote:

> On 04/18/2016 01:07 PM, Joe Awni wrote:
> > If you have not had time to read the message, how do you find time to
> > reply at length?
>
> Nowhere in his public e-mail has Erik stated that he has not had enough
> time to read your message.
>
> > Just because you made rules, at a previous date, regarding the structure
> > of the election does not mean you have to waste this election which has
> > only one candidate.
> > *Indeed, its the purpose of the election to let the people decide. *
>
> I explained the purpose of the Fellowship elections to you in my e-mail
> to the list.
>
> > If you insist on not allowing write-ins, I'll call the election and you
> > can just go home.
>
> This kind of abuse will not be tolerated.
>
>
> --
> Heiki Lõhmus
> Coordinator Translations
> Free Software Foundation Europe
> mailto:repenti...@fsfe.org
> xmpp:repenti...@jabber.fsfe.org
> http://blogs.fsfe.org/repentinus/
>
>
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Re: Candidacy FSFE Fellowship Representative

2016-04-18 Thread Repentinus 
On 04/18/2016 01:07 PM, Joe Awni wrote:
> If you have not had time to read the message, how do you find time to
> reply at length?

Nowhere in his public e-mail has Erik stated that he has not had enough
time to read your message.

> Just because you made rules, at a previous date, regarding the structure
> of the election does not mean you have to waste this election which has
> only one candidate.
> *Indeed, its the purpose of the election to let the people decide. *

I explained the purpose of the Fellowship elections to you in my e-mail
to the list.

> If you insist on not allowing write-ins, I'll call the election and you
> can just go home.

This kind of abuse will not be tolerated.


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Re: Candidacy FSFE Fellowship Representative

2016-04-18 Thread Repentinus 
Dear Joe,

On 04/16/2016 11:15 AM, Joe Awni wrote:
> I write to notify you of my candidacy for fellowship representative. I
> had some messages blocked and delayed so there is a kind-of lengthy
> meta-discussion before the announcement of candidacy. Feel Free to skip
> the meta-discussion.

It is admirable that you wish to represent your fellow Fellows in FSFE's
General Assembly. However, adequate representation requires intent to
represent the Fellows and the FSFE, sufficient knowledge of the
organization and its rules, and respect for the organization. As your
e-mail has made it very clear that you lack at least one of those
qualities, please allow me to give you a few pointers.

First, FSFE, like any other organization, has a written constitution
that we have to follow. You can find the constitution at
 and if you ever wish
to successfully run for the Fellowship representative seat, I suggest
you read through it. If you do that, you will soon find out that
"Fellowship seats" (3) 4. requires candidates to notify the Fellowship
coordinator at least two months before the election date. As an
organization we are bound by law to follow our own constitution and
could not accept your candidacy even if we wanted to.

Similarly, our constitution specifies the voting method to be used and
the period potential candidates must have been Fellows for before they
are permitted to run for the seats. Once again, it would be illegal for
us to make any exceptions in this regard.

> For more than a decade i use exclusively Free Software. Last year, i
> built a website on 100% Free Software stack: http://cryptobiz.directory
> (FSF approval pending). This year, i enjoyed traveling across Europe to
> computer conferences (FOSDEM [where i saw RMS], 32C3) to promote Free
> Software in innovative ways. Personally, i think the future of Free
> Software depends on our ability to connect with young software
> developers. With that in mind, i organized the GNUBurger.
> 
> GNUBurgers are made from a GPLv3 instruction set :
> https://foodhackingbase.org/wiki/Recipe:Mildenburger and usually have
> the GPLv3 logo toasted into the bun.
> 
> I'm hoping to earn your endorsement and vote to continue to representing
> the Free Software community with my pledge that if elected i will make
> freely available GNUBurgers to all software developers who wish. And,
> will attend as many events as possible.

This is all very nice, but the purpose of the Fellowship elections is to
provide the Fellowship with confidence that FSFE is spending its
resources in a sustainable way on our constitutional purposes, to enable
the Fellowship a say about the activities we prioritize, and to provide
active Fellows with an opportunity to lead in the fight for the
advancement of Free Software. While this is my personal conviction, you
might find that if you do decide to stand for election next year, you
are unlikely to be elected if your agenda would be the promotion of
personal projects.


Sincerely yours,
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Coordinator Translations
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Re: Candidacy FSFE Fellowship Representative

2016-04-18 Thread Paul Boddie 
On Saturday 16. April 2016 13.15.10 Joe Awni wrote:
> 
> Don't you think it anomalous to have an election with only one candidate?

Maybe it is, although it has happened before. Sorry if you mentioned that in 
your historical review, but I don't have time to read it properly at the 
moment!

As for this election (and for many if not most elections), I thought there was 
a deadline for declaring a candidacy, and given that the voting has been 
opened, that deadline will have been quite some time ago.

> Finally, It has come to my attention by means of blocked messages and
> delayed communications that those running the election would prevent you
> from voting for me (even as a write-in candidate) out of some misguided
> sense that they are "helping to make sure the people elected into the
> GA..."

No, I imagine that the list has some kind of new sender moderation and you've 
just ended up in a queue.

Honestly, I have my reservations about the democratic standards in most 
organisations, and the FSFE Fellowship is no exception in that regard, but 
there needs to be a constructive discussion about such things instead of 
finger-pointing and opaque references to past occurrences that mean nothing to 
the casual observer.

Paul
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