Re: [DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 09:46:47 +0200 Antonio Rendina via Dng wrote: > Having control on some open/free source software piece helps you to > drive the project in the direction that you find more convenient or > to kill the project the moment that you don't need it anymore. I've noticed this, and I had speculated that companies will themselves found projects to re-create various things in order to stall them into copying code that becomes legacy long before the project is competitive. I suspect this of projects like the various BeOS implementations. > ... Firefox is tied with all two hands to Google that is in control > of Chrome and Chromium too. I also see some projects, certainly Mozilla, as tied to politics as well, which is especially stupid; I'd liken that to a constraint/tether to an external philosophy. > Linus Torvalds at today has been one of the best at playing this > game. Maybe not on other fronts, but that is wrong on the philosophy front. Didn't he bow out of some aspects of his effort for some reasons? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 16:52:12 -0400 Steve Litt wrote: > Syeed Ali said on Wed, 13 Jul 2022 13:31:37 -0700 > > >Microsoft has a great interest in embracing Linux via WSL with the > >intent to obsolete the need to dual boot. With many critical > >distributions and software requiring systemd, it only makes sense to > >make sure that WSL has complete support; indeed better support than > >on Linux. Combined Windows and WSL can thereby be extended nicely > >in ways pure Linux cannot. > > Your paragraphs contained the words "embracing" and "extended". You > forgot the word "extinquish". :-) I left that as a problem for the reader. :) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
Syeed Ali said on Wed, 13 Jul 2022 13:31:37 -0700 >Microsoft has a great interest in embracing Linux via WSL with the >intent to obsolete the need to dual boot. With many critical >distributions and software requiring systemd, it only makes sense to >make sure that WSL has complete support; indeed better support than on >Linux. Combined Windows and WSL can thereby be extended nicely in ways >pure Linux cannot. Syeed, Your paragraphs contained the words "embracing" and "extended". You forgot the word "extinquish". :-) SteveT Steve Litt Summer 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
My humblest apologies about inserting the spam header, folks. That was me having two problems. 1. I wasn't paying attention. 2. I have a problem with rspamd bouncing more than it should solicited commercial email and classifying most everything else as spam. I fix the first problem immediately. The latter is going to take some tweaking. On 7/15/22 12:07, Curtis Maurand wrote: We were using it as a Server OS and on the clients - and later on, wanted to start using the thin client-versions, too. But then, we understood, that there wouldn't be much further development and eComstation, as nice as it is, has not really made any progress compared to OS/2 :-( ;.( The server version was seriously cool and very stable. We thought the 32 bit HPFS was really cool. It was blazingly fast. Hans Reiser was closing in on it with reiserfs (that went off the rails). BTRFS has all of the HPFS cool features and then some. I just wish it recovered from crashes better. But now, there is Devuan :-) Why yes there is. :-) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Curtis https://curtis.maurand.com ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
I think that every company is just trying to harness the open-source strength. Nowadays this is a strategical need. Having control on some open/free source software piece helps you to drive the project in the direction that you find more convenient or to kill the project the moment that you don't need it anymore. No companies are really good companies, they just do what is convenient for them, for example Firefox is tied with all two hands to Google that is in control of Chrome and Chromium too. The trick is to accept it and try to stay in balance between these lions so they don't get the full meal. Linus Torvalds at today has been one of the best at playing this game. BSD team is playing well too. I think that nowadays there are companies that are worse than Microsoft, like Amazon and Oracle just to say two. But also I think that Google pose the same threat as Microsoft, or maybe more. I reserve the right to change my mind in the next 5 years :-) -- Antonio Il 13/07/22 23:20, Jeremy Ardley via Dng ha scritto: On 14/7/22 4:31 am, Syeed Ali wrote: Microsoft has a great interest in embracing Linux via WSL with the intent to obsolete the need to dual boot. With many critical distributions and software requiring systemd, it only makes sense to make sure that WSL has complete support; indeed better support than on Linux. Combined Windows and WSL can thereby be extended nicely in ways pure Linux cannot. A similar take at https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/13/microsoft_linux_company -- Jeremy ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
On 7/14/22 12:04, Peter Duffy wrote: [snip] M$ and IBM haven't always been rivals - worth remembering that OS/2 was originally a joint venture. Then they decided to go their separate ways and fork the OS/2 project: IBM carried on developing OS/2; M$ hacked their version into Windows 95 (remember they took over the front page of the Times to advertise the launch of it?). (Shame that OS/2 vanished off the radar. I used it daily for a number of years: it was infinitely better than windows.) Caveat: two hazy recollections from long ago. 1) It'd be hard to find sources for it any more but IBM was not careful about the copyright and the code base ended up with a terrible mixture of code, some copyrighted by M$ some by IBM. M$ also got potential customers to postpone purchasing the obviously superior operating system through a very effective "wait-and-see" whisper campaign. So that basically paralyzed the OS/2. 2) On top of that, there was not much market demand for OS/2 due to the nearly complete lack of desktop applications for it. That lack was because while M$ had agreed to write some key applications for OS/2, it instead used the time secretly to write for NT. By the time IBM found out, it was too close to release to do anything. Later, IIRC, any team of developers wishing to write for W95 and get that little approval logo on their packaging had to also write the same application for NT. The license for the NT SDK had piggybacked onto it the prohibition of writing for competing operating systems. At the time I thought that was about killing the Mac game market but looking back I can see it was also about keeping OS/2 from getting even the smallest amount of traction. Anyway, back to Lennart, there are still few facts to go on at this point but given the apparent secrecy we can speculate that something big is brewing. Can this be tied to the restricted boot deployments? Lenovo is now selling laptops that refuse by default to boot non-Windows operating systems. I hope the derivative distros see the writing on the wall so that more use Devuan for their upstream source. Tails, Ubuntu, Linux Mint, Finnix, Kali, and others risk their future otherwise. /Lars ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
On Wed, 2022-07-13 at 15:49 -0500, hal wrote: > On July 13, 2022 3:31:37 PM CDT, Syeed Ali > wrote: > :: Microsoft has a great interest in embracing Linux via WSL with the > :: intent to obsolete the need to dual boot. With many critical > :: distributions and software requiring systemd, it only makes sense > to > :: make sure that WSL has complete support; indeed better support > than on > :: Linux. Combined Windows and WSL can thereby be extended nicely in > ways > :: pure Linux cannot. > :: > :: ___ > :: Dng mailing list > :: Dng@lists.dyne.org > :: https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > Microsoft has only an interest in not having any competition. from > DOS, to Internet Explore vs. Netscape, to SCO Linux. Every few years > they try again. this is all just another example. > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng I'm sure that is correct. M$ were obviously behind the SCO thing. Thank heavens for groklaw - without Pamela Jones, SCO's legal action might have succeeded, and we might now be paying them for linux licences (or using something else). I do find it interesting that Red Hat haven't commented on Poettering's departure as yet (or at least, I haven't seen any comment from them so far). M$ and IBM haven't always been rivals - worth remembering that OS/2 was originally a joint venture. Then they decided to go their separate ways and fork the OS/2 project: IBM carried on developing OS/2; M$ hacked their version into Windows 95 (remember they took over the front page of the Times to advertise the launch of it?). (Shame that OS/2 vanished off the radar. I used it daily for a number of years: it was infinitely better than windows.) Obviously something's going on. I guess time will tell what it is. For now, it at least seems extremely good news that systemd is now firmly tarred with the M$ brush. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
On 14/7/22 4:31 am, Syeed Ali wrote: Microsoft has a great interest in embracing Linux via WSL with the intent to obsolete the need to dual boot. With many critical distributions and software requiring systemd, it only makes sense to make sure that WSL has complete support; indeed better support than on Linux. Combined Windows and WSL can thereby be extended nicely in ways pure Linux cannot. A similar take at https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/13/microsoft_linux_company -- Jeremy OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
On July 13, 2022 3:31:37 PM CDT, Syeed Ali wrote: :: Microsoft has a great interest in embracing Linux via WSL with the :: intent to obsolete the need to dual boot. With many critical :: distributions and software requiring systemd, it only makes sense to :: make sure that WSL has complete support; indeed better support than on :: Linux. Combined Windows and WSL can thereby be extended nicely in ways :: pure Linux cannot. :: :: ___ :: Dng mailing list :: Dng@lists.dyne.org :: https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng Microsoft has only an interest in not having any competition. from DOS, to Internet Explore vs. Netscape, to SCO Linux. Every few years they try again. this is all just another example. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
Microsoft has a great interest in embracing Linux via WSL with the intent to obsolete the need to dual boot. With many critical distributions and software requiring systemd, it only makes sense to make sure that WSL has complete support; indeed better support than on Linux. Combined Windows and WSL can thereby be extended nicely in ways pure Linux cannot. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
The waters do seem very muddy at the moment. The one thing which seems self-evident is that if Poettering is continuing to work on systemd, it's not going to be in his spare time - so that means that it's going to be in the context of M$, and almost certainly in that of WSL. I'd give a lot to know what's currently passing between Poettering and Kay Sievers. Sievers is still at Red Hat - so far anyway. I wonder if M$ and Red Hat are negotiating some sort of deal. On Tue, 2022-07-12 at 10:35 +0200, Edward Bartolo via Dng wrote: > Let me understand... So, this excellent coder first grabs the > opportunity offered to him by RedHat, and now, after the latter made > him rich, he is leaving them! Please, anyone explain to me, how can > anyone extend a day beyond the usual 24 hours? Systemd is not a > simple > game like the many one can find, it is literally a very complex piece > of software with many functions that hardly can be logically imagined > to be produced by the same project. This latter fact, is asking for > more systemd problems. > > Regrettably, I have it running on my raspberry pi mini-computer > because I could not find a way to let the OS recognise and use an > IQAudIO DAC PRO hat (a sound card). If Devuan can do it, that would > be > the death knell of my installation using the blessed systemd. > > Thanks to all for using and supporting Devuan. > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
Let me understand... So, this excellent coder first grabs the opportunity offered to him by RedHat, and now, after the latter made him rich, he is leaving them! Please, anyone explain to me, how can anyone extend a day beyond the usual 24 hours? Systemd is not a simple game like the many one can find, it is literally a very complex piece of software with many functions that hardly can be logically imagined to be produced by the same project. This latter fact, is asking for more systemd problems. Regrettably, I have it running on my raspberry pi mini-computer because I could not find a way to let the OS recognise and use an IQAudIO DAC PRO hat (a sound card). If Devuan can do it, that would be the death knell of my installation using the blessed systemd. Thanks to all for using and supporting Devuan. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 12:18:29 +0200, Martin wrote in message <12021771.O9o76ZdvQC@ananda>: > Peter Duffy - 11.07.22, 11:37:09 CEST: > > It's an interesting development, and in a strange way it feels as > > though it's been coming. > > > > IBM owns Redhat and M$ owns systemd (Poettering has said that he's > > continuing to work on systemd. Presumably that's not going to be in > > his spare time ;) ). I wonder how that's going to play out. Maybe M$ > > will make IBM an offer for Redhat. > > > > It seems to me that at the very least, the fact that systemd is now > > M$- tainted is going to make a lot more people start to think about > > dropping it. That's probably good news for Devuan, and other distros > > that have already eschewed systemd. > > Thanks for providing that additional insight that Lennart Poettering > has said he will continue to work on Systemd. > > And yeah, the role of Microsoft regarding free software IMHO is not a > good one in general. No, they did not change. There are still about > creating monopolies. Office 365 shows. .."systemd 365, will it happen?" ;o) XoD -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
Peter Duffy - 11.07.22, 11:37:09 CEST: > It's an interesting development, and in a strange way it feels as > though it's been coming. > > IBM owns Redhat and M$ owns systemd (Poettering has said that he's > continuing to work on systemd. Presumably that's not going to be in > his spare time ;) ). I wonder how that's going to play out. Maybe M$ > will make IBM an offer for Redhat. > > It seems to me that at the very least, the fact that systemd is now > M$- tainted is going to make a lot more people start to think about > dropping it. That's probably good news for Devuan, and other distros > that have already eschewed systemd. Thanks for providing that additional insight that Lennart Poettering has said he will continue to work on Systemd. And yeah, the role of Microsoft regarding free software IMHO is not a good one in general. No, they did not change. There are still about creating monopolies. Office 365 shows. -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
It's an interesting development, and in a strange way it feels as though it's been coming. IBM owns Redhat and M$ owns systemd (Poettering has said that he's continuing to work on systemd. Presumably that's not going to be in his spare time ;) ). I wonder how that's going to play out. Maybe M$ will make IBM an offer for Redhat. It seems to me that at the very least, the fact that systemd is now M$- tainted is going to make a lot more people start to think about dropping it. That's probably good news for Devuan, and other distros that have already eschewed systemd. On Fri, 2022-07-08 at 19:30 +0200, Harald Arnesen via Dng wrote: > Steve Litt [08/07/2022 15.57]: > > > What scares me is if he starts putting Microsoft-centric stuff in > > systemd, Linux will need to either migrate away from systemd > > Wouldn't that be what we all want? > > or be > > subsumed by microsoft. > > Won't happen. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
> On 9 Jul 2022, at 02:07, goli...@devuan.org wrote: > > On 2022-07-08 08:57, Steve Litt wrote: >> What scares me is if he starts putting Microsoft-centric stuff in >> systemd, Linux will need to either migrate away from systemd or be >> subsumed by microsoft. >> SteveT > > We'll be there to pick up the pieces . . . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > > . . . and say "we told you so"! > > golinux Here’s to hoping that Laurent Bercot’s (skarnet) new process supervision software arrives and is ready to go before any potential systemd implosion occurs. Does anyone know where we can keep track of progress on that project? His website hasn’t seen any updates since the funding announcement a long time ago. https://skarnet.com/projects/service-manager.html -- Tom___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
Steve Litt [08/07/2022 15.57]: What scares me is if he starts putting Microsoft-centric stuff in systemd, Linux will need to either migrate away from systemd Wouldn't that be what we all want? or be subsumed by microsoft. Won't happen. -- Hilsen Harald Слава Україні! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
On 2022-07-08 08:57, Steve Litt wrote: What scares me is if he starts putting Microsoft-centric stuff in systemd, Linux will need to either migrate away from systemd or be subsumed by microsoft. SteveT We'll be there to pick up the pieces . . . . . . . . . . . . . . and say "we told you so"! golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
Martin Steigerwald said on Fri, 08 Jul 2022 13:43:30 +0200 >Hi! > >How come that I am not surprised? Me neither. On first seeing the headline, I thought "what's new about that?", because in my mind redhat is stored in the same compartment as microsoft and I confuse the two. > >I said it back then already that Systemd adoption followed a similar >pattern to Microsoft's "embrace, extend, and extinguish" tactics. >(They are still following the very same pattern, this time with Office >365.) > >Well… I won't miss him. I hope he stops developing for Linux >altogether. What scares me is if he starts putting Microsoft-centric stuff in systemd, Linux will need to either migrate away from systemd or be subsumed by microsoft. SteveT Steve Litt Summer 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
Hi! How come that I am not surprised? I said it back then already that Systemd adoption followed a similar pattern to Microsoft's "embrace, extend, and extinguish" tactics. (They are still following the very same pattern, this time with Office 365.) Well… I won't miss him. I hope he stops developing for Linux altogether. Ciao, -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
