[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp discussion
Hi Michael, :-) On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 18:24, Michael Meeks michael.me...@novell.com wrote: So - there is no need to open the wiki for editing ever, if that is a huge problem for people, and certainly we don't have to do this for 3.3, and certainly we don't have to open the wiki so just anyone can turn up from the street and spam it :-) [ it is easy to have approved translators only eg. ]. We can provide solutions for off-line editing, and there is certainly no need to switch tooling to make the wiki the authoritative data source now / yesterday :-) we can do that in a month / never if there is some insuperable problem. Personally, I like the idea of editing the help on the wiki rather than offline. But could the problem be solved by creating a user group on the wiki and only allowing editing rights for that group's users? Then we could add selected devs, i10n and docs people to that group? Is that a feasible solution? David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/documentation/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp
Hi Kendy,
First, thanks for your answer:
On 13/12/2010 13:20, Jan Holesovsky wrote:
Hi Sophie,
On 2010-12-11 at 14:35 +0300, Sophie Gautier wrote:
I have heard quite some complaints about the missing native language
versions already; I am not sure I've explained it well enough
previously, but this testing is blocking it. So please - help me :-)
I've search for your explanation on our list but didn't find them.
Currently we (the localizer team) do not want the localized help to be
uploaded on the wiki until we know about the localization process that
will be in place.
I have subscribed to the l10n mailing list just on Friday, after I
learned that there were some discussions there I was not aware of until
then.
This is the list for the people doing the work you're currently
removing, so you should have come first to this list :-)
Now, the explanation about wikihelp. As you may recall, the conclusion
was described as:
create help-packs - split out the help for each language
and simply have no help installed[1], but a web link to on-line
help[2], and a download your help-pack here direction
+ not even English help would be installed -
this will save us 11Mb in the 170Mb download
Also, each and every release notes of betas and even RC1 contained a
note The help content is not included. We are working on the online
version. Alternatively, it will be possible to install it separately.
It is my mistake that I did not explain the exact way to implement it in
advance, I am sorry for that.
It's ok, thanks for your explanations.
So let me explain why wikihelp:
Wiki is so far the best free tool for collaboration editing I know of.
It gives anyone the freedom to improve things. With help implemented as
a wiki, any user of the suite can (potentially) just describe the
functionality better, should he/she find out that something is described
wrongly, or just partially.
We're used to work on the wiki, so yes, for documentation it's a very
good tool.
Also, why should be your native language just a translation of an
English help? Should you have people that can improve the help, but
cannot speak English, why should they be bound to translating only, when
they can author the text? Why should be the French help just a
translation of an English help, when it can be an own (better?) version?
This is all the difference between documentation and the help. Creating
content is much more difficult than translating it and doesn't have the
same cost. So offering the help files for translation ensure that all
languages have access to the same basis of *accurate* information. This
is what Help is and why it should stay in a localization process.
Offering the same information at the lowest cost as possible.
If it needs to be completed, lets do it as we have done until now :
using links pointing to the wiki (see the Calc functions, as an example).
As I said in my mail about HC2 and localization, we use some tooling to
ensure the overall quality of the files. We won't be able to use them in
a wiki, it's making our work very difficult to render the same quality
as the one we are currently offering. We have style guides, and several
checks available on Pootle.
Just an example : we often have to correct one string in the UI, to make
sure it's changed in all the files where this string is appearing, we
just grep and change the string. You won't be able to do that on a wiki.
Also we make large use of suggestions and comments on strings, we work
off line, we use translation memory and glossaries, etc. All these
tooling ensure a quality of our work that you won't be able to use on a
wiki.
This is why I believe implementing the help as a wiki is the best thing
to do. How does it work:
- for 3.3, I am converting the .xhp files into wiki markup
- it is now online as http://help.libreoffice.org
- missing translations yet, I need to polish the tooling first
- when the tooling is right, I'll add 2-3 more languages, for more
testing
- when even that approved, I'll upload the rest
- anything untranslated in the localized versions will be marked
appropriately
- a template for that, like {{NeedsTranslation}} + the English version
- after the import is done, and people are happy with it, it will be
open for account creation
- for now, please ask me directly if you want to have an account
there, to edit pages like Main_Page, or Template:*
- other pages might get rewritten by the import tooling
- after 3.3, I'll start to work on tooling to convert it back to offline
help
- to platform native help system
- Windows/Linux/MacOSX
- from the engineering point of view, we don't want a home-grown help
system, as we have now
- needs more research, to see if we don't lose features etc.
- when done, the wikihelp becomes the authoritative version of the help
- but we'll still be able to
[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp
Hi Muthu, On 2010-12-08 at 19:40 +0530, Muthu Subramanian K wrote: I guess we should tie the 'help-welcome' (the page that opens when the user clicks Help-Help from menu) pages to the wiki/Main_Page or probably create a LibreOffice welcome help page (to point to the Writer, Calc, and other applications help-start pages)... I too felt it odd for it not to have it. Just my thought... We have these, eg. when you hit F1 in a freshly opened Writer, you get to: http://help.libreoffice.org/Swriter/start Actually - if anyone volunteers to improve the Main_Page (eg. collect links to swriter/start, scalc/start, ...), I'll be happy to create the account for him to do that; or I can cut and paste any improvements sent to this thread directly as an wiki update. Though - as I already explained, first it is necessary to fine-tune the conversion tooling, the things like the exact wording of the Main_Page can be fixed as soon as I feel confident with the result of the conversion so that I can open it for everyone to edit. Regards, Kendy -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/documentation/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp
On Tue, 2010-12-07 at 16:45 +0100, Jan Holesovsky wrote: http://help.libreoffice.org is now up and running. Can someone post the IP address of that site? For me, that leads to the old go-ooo source code documentation by doxygen. It could be a DNS caching issue if we are trying to change the sub-domain routing. Kohei -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc kyosh...@novell.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/documentation/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp
On Tue, 2010-12-07 at 10:58 -0500, Kohei Yoshida wrote: On Tue, 2010-12-07 at 16:45 +0100, Jan Holesovsky wrote: http://help.libreoffice.org is now up and running. Can someone post the IP address of that site? For me, that leads to the old go-ooo source code documentation by doxygen. It could be a DNS caching issue if we are trying to change the sub-domain routing. Ah, nevermind. The real main page is http://help.libreoffice.org/Main_Page. -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc kyosh...@novell.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/documentation/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp
Hi *, On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Kohei Yoshida kyosh...@novell.com wrote: On Tue, 2010-12-07 at 16:45 +0100, Jan Holesovsky wrote: http://help.libreoffice.org is now up and running. Can someone post the IP address of that site? help.libreoffice.org. 86365 IN A 195.135.221.70 ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/documentation/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp
Hi, :-) I suppose that logically this is something for the documentation team to get involved in... We're having a phone conference this weekend... Shall I add it to the agenda? If you need a docs person to liaise with about this, please feel free to include me in the loop. David Nelson On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 16:00, Jan Holesovsky ke...@suse.cz wrote: Hi Christian, On 2010-11-25 at 22:24 +0100, Christian Lohmaier wrote: Hm... how will the help be exported? What's easiest for you? MediaWiki, any other interface? The question is whether you want people to just read the content there, or whether you want people to update content. I'd say: provide only readonly access, maybe with a commenting feature, but keep the editing to pootle. Let me actually take this to the ML, because this is a really good question, and I probably did not explain much about the WikiHelp so far. So first - what is WikiHelp? It is going to be a help.libreoffice.org site, where the LibreOffice help will be stored. The intention is that it will be a Wiki - because the Wiki concept and format is widely used for information exchange, and because it is so easy to edit and improve. For the first cut, it will be read-only, to debug the converter; I'll announce it in a few days for feedback + testing. In the long run [around LibreOffice final ;-)], we should allow editing there when 'good enough', so that the wikihelp becomes the source of the help for LibreOffice, instead of the xhp files. I am still doing the final experiments there, but the hope is that I'll get it to the state where the developer can just commit code that should have some help, provide a stub article, and the first time a user hits that, she/he can update it with more information. And the off-line (installed) help will be generated from this wikihelp in the next releases. Additionally, thanks to wiki being versioned, we will still be able to merge changes from OOo. I can imagine that getting the help files into a wiki require some manual work, so we should chose the web interface that's easiest for us to use. :-) Simplest would probably just a small xstl conversion to html of the application help files. The tooling is now written, just needs testing and polishing: cd clone/help/helpcontent2 ./help-to-wiki.py And you'll see the current result in a wiki/ subdir. Whoever interested in this - patches appreciated! :-) Regards, Kendy ___ LibreOffice mailing list libreoff...@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/documentation/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp
On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 6:14 PM, David Nelson comme...@traduction.biz wrote: Hi, :-) I suppose that logically this is something for the documentation team to get involved in... We're having a phone conference this weekend... Shall I add it to the agenda? If you need a docs person to liaise with about this, please feel free to include me in the loop. David Nelson On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 16:00, Jan Holesovsky ke...@suse.cz wrote: Hi Christian, On 2010-11-25 at 22:24 +0100, Christian Lohmaier wrote: Hm... how will the help be exported? What's easiest for you? MediaWiki, any other interface? The question is whether you want people to just read the content there, or whether you want people to update content. I'd say: provide only readonly access, maybe with a commenting feature, but keep the editing to pootle. Let me actually take this to the ML, because this is a really good question, and I probably did not explain much about the WikiHelp so far. So first - what is WikiHelp? It is going to be a help.libreoffice.org site, where the LibreOffice help will be stored. The intention is that it will be a Wiki - because the Wiki concept and format is widely used for information exchange, and because it is so easy to edit and improve. For the first cut, it will be read-only, to debug the converter; I'll announce it in a few days for feedback + testing. In the long run [around LibreOffice final ;-)], we should allow editing there when 'good enough', so that the wikihelp becomes the source of the help for LibreOffice, instead of the xhp files. I am still doing the final experiments there, but the hope is that I'll get it to the state where the developer can just commit code that should have some help, provide a stub article, and the first time a user hits that, she/he can update it with more information. And the off-line (installed) help will be generated from this wikihelp in the next releases. Additionally, thanks to wiki being versioned, we will still be able to merge changes from OOo. I can imagine that getting the help files into a wiki require some manual work, so we should chose the web interface that's easiest for us to use. :-) Simplest would probably just a small xstl conversion to html of the application help files. The tooling is now written, just needs testing and polishing: cd clone/help/helpcontent2 ./help-to-wiki.py And you'll see the current result in a wiki/ subdir. Whoever interested in this - patches appreciated! :-) Regards, Kendy I must have missed this conversation on the website or the documentation list, being the two teams who would be the stakeholders and primary drivers of a system like this. Can someone point me to the archive or wiki page regarding the planning and consulting on this? Thanks, Michael Wheatland -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/documentation/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
