Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
Timo, * Rob Middleton robm-dove...@centenary.org.au: On 25/09/2009 11:14 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: It seems that there is no standard for folder names that deal with typical message classes such as drafts, outbox, sent, spam etc. At least there's no common sense on a naming convention that tells how client should handle this. XLIST may deal with this in the future. XLIST seems to be pretty proprietary. Have you had a look at LIST-EXTENDED instead? It's a standard and one would 'simply' need to register the required extensions to get a mapping: IMAP4 LIST Command Extensions http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5258.txt It seems to be capable to map the relations we are dicussion here. Something along these lines: S: * LIST (\Subscribed \NoInferiors) / inbox S: * LIST (\Subscribed \drafts \NoInferiors) / Drafts S: * LIST (\Subscribed \trash \NoInferiors) / Trash S: * LIST (\Subscribed \sent \NoInferiors) / Sent-Mail S: * LIST (\Subscribed \outbox \NoInferiors) / Out S: * LIST (\Subscribed \templates \NoInferiors) / Templates p...@rick
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
On Thu, 2009-10-01 at 16:51 +0200, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: XLIST seems to be pretty proprietary. Have you had a look at LIST-EXTENDED instead? See http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/morg/current/msg00208.html thread, especially http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/morg/current/msg00212.html signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
* Timo Sirainen t...@iki.fi: On Thu, 2009-10-01 at 16:51 +0200, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: XLIST seems to be pretty proprietary. Have you had a look at LIST-EXTENDED instead? See http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/morg/current/msg00208.html thread, especially http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/morg/current/msg00212.html Okay. I'll see if I can catch up on morg. p...@rick signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
* Stefan Förster cite+dovecot-us...@incertum.net: * Patrick Ben Koetter p...@state-of-mind.de: * Timo Sirainen dovecot@dovecot.org: No. And one of the first commands they typically do is LIST. So there are no good ways to solve this. I suspected that. Would it be possible to identify a client by the folders it tries to subscribe to? You could, of course, have a list of folders to hide in a LIST command. Most clients would then try to create those folders (a request which is ignored) and the IMAP server had to redirect all Is it so? They would? If yes this behaviour would create a kind of footprint, which could be used to identify a client and load its client view. further select requests. Something along the lines of: /etc/dovecot/dovecot-ignore-aliases-in-list-or-create-command-and-redirect-select: sent-mail gesendet/i,gesendete nachrichten/i,sent\(-mail\)?/i trash trash/i,junk/i,geloeschte\ objekte/i User interaction or server side configuration is fine if it takes place in a company, but its not feasible in an ISP environment. A corporate environment doesn't need that kind of functionality. Just preconfigure all installed software to suit your company's needs. Agreed. That's what I had tried to indicate in the sentence above. p...@rick
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
Patrick Ben Koetter schrieb: * Charles Marcus dovecot@dovecot.org: On 9/25/2009, Stefan Förster (cite+dovecot-us...@incertum.net) wrote: Has anyone seen an approach or a solution that solves the problem from a users point of view? A server side alias list that maps to a server standard? Tried that, didn't work out that great (users got confused by 12 dozillion sent folders). Thats not how I read the OPs question... He wants to be able to configure some aliases server side so that if someone is using different clients that expect, for example, different folder names for the 'Sent' folder, it would map the expected name to a single folder on the server... For example... $user accesses their imap account using Outlook at work and ThunderBird at home. Outlook expects to use a 'Sent Items' folder, Thuderbird expects a 'Sent' folder. The OP wants to be able to define the folder to be used on the server as 'Sent', and map any *requests* for a 'Sent Items' folder to the 'Sent' folder... So, each Client sees *only* what it expects, but only one folder on the server is used - meaning, Outlook doesn't now have *both* a 'Sent* *and* a 'Sent Items', it only has 'Sent Items', but this displays what is in the 'Sent' folder on the server. Yes. That is exactly the behaviour I was thinking of. And I wonder if it is possible... I like the idea, but don't know how feasible it is... Same here :) p...@rick sent folder is configurable in outlook since vers 2007 i think, in 2003 there is a workaround with rules as far i remember -- Best Regards MfG Robert Schetterer Germany/Munich/Bavaria
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
On 25/09/2009 11:14 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: It seems that there is no standard for folder names that deal with typical message classes such as drafts, outbox, sent, spam etc. At least there's no common sense on a naming convention that tells how client should handle this. XLIST may deal with this in the future. It has been initially implemented as an IMAP extension by GMail and Apple iPhone's email client. It allows localized naming of drafts, sent, etc while allowing the server to tell the client the mapping between well-known folder types and their actual name. http://groups.google.com/group/Gmail-Help-POP-and-IMAP-en/browse_thread/thread/a154105c54f020fb?pli=1 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=476260 It oddly seems to have been barely documented or pushed ... though it is sufficiently simple and useful that I hope it gets wide support. Cheers, Rob Middleton.
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
Patrick Ben Koetter schrieb: * Robert Schetterer rob...@schetterer.org: Patrick Ben Koetter schrieb: It seems that there is no standard for folder names that deal with typical message classes such as drafts, outbox, sent, spam etc. At least there's no common sense on a naming convention that tells how client should handle this. Worse than this, most IMAP clients auto-create folders according to their own naming convention if they don't exist. Every client introduces its own view. Users OTOH expect a single view that makes it easy for them to find their messages. They are unwilling to search in sent, sent-mail or Sent items for messages that have been sent. I doubt that software producers will adopt a standard naming convention if it was introduced within a useful time span. Has anyone seen an approach or a solution that solves the problem from a users point of view? A server side alias list that maps to a server standard? p...@rick Hi Patrick, i see no way to push coders to standart folders use I do. I just takes a lot of time. Well, at least most of them would follow... ;) but with autocreate and global sieve rules you can implement a pseudo standart i use tbs one and configure horde/imp like tb does it, in my meaning big players have no intension bring up even a pseudo standart cause they want users to use their own mail services and server implementations ( google, apple, m$, etc ) and earn money with it Yes, they want to. But they also want to create a great user experience for those that do not use web applications. but as reality shows, if there is a good faq side for your server setup most imap users are smart enough to configure their clients I know you and I don't mind to search the internet, read docs and try this or that until we find something that satisfies our needs. But the goal I am aiming for here is out of the box. And that means a good faq site is not acceptable (until I have to face reality...). p...@rick Hi Patrick, i allready tried it, i see no way to goal it yet, but its common i.e companies that there is only one mail client is supported, so if your server is only for them , there should be no Problem, in internet servers the only client which i support is thunderbird until its widly spreaded , free and for all os this is accepted since yours by the users, but your right having a standart would be very nice, but i dont think it will come ever -- Best Regards MfG Robert Schetterer Germany/Munich/Bavaria
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 07:55:41PM +0300, Timo Sirainen wrote: On Sep 25, 2009, at 7:49 PM, Eric Shubert wrote: Timo Sirainen wrote: On Sep 25, 2009, at 4:14 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: Has anyone seen an approach or a solution that solves the problem from a users point of view? A server side alias list that maps to a server standard? Symlinks maybe? Or something similar done internally. The main problem would anyway be LIST command, should it show all of them or somehow try to figure out which one to show? Do the clients identify which program they are? No. And one of the first commands they typically do is LIST. So there are no good ways to solve this. Although I haven't really seen much problems myself. Linux clients allow changing what mailboxes they use, so I just configure them to use the same as Apple Mail.. Given than you seem to bless Apple Mail folder structures it makes it a good candidate to try to push as a standard for others to copy. Maybe there could be example setups/configs shipped with dovecot that maps other naming conventions to Apple's? In that way dovecot would start to inforce the use of a standard which in the long term could become a real standard. If Apple's structure are not the best to go with, then we could use some other naming convention, I just trust that Timo's choice is not a bad one. ;) -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net pgpzQKx7cBwOE.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 11:40:21AM +0300, Axel Thimm wrote: On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 07:55:41PM +0300, Timo Sirainen wrote: On Sep 25, 2009, at 7:49 PM, Eric Shubert wrote: Timo Sirainen wrote: On Sep 25, 2009, at 4:14 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: Has anyone seen an approach or a solution that solves the problem from a users point of view? A server side alias list that maps to a server standard? Symlinks maybe? Or something similar done internally. The main problem would anyway be LIST command, should it show all of them or somehow try to figure out which one to show? Do the clients identify which program they are? No. And one of the first commands they typically do is LIST. So there are no good ways to solve this. Although I haven't really seen much problems myself. Linux clients allow changing what mailboxes they use, so I just configure them to use the same as Apple Mail.. Given than you seem to bless Apple Mail folder structures it makes it a good candidate to try to push as a standard for others to copy. Maybe there could be example setups/configs shipped with dovecot that maps other naming conventions to Apple's? In that way dovecot would start to inforce the use of a standard which in the long term could become a real standard. If Apple's structure are not the best to go with, then we could use some other naming convention, I just trust that Timo's choice is not a bad one. ;) I forgot to ask: How do Apple Mail's structures look like? -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net pgpZ9h5YFhk3E.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
On 26/09/2009 6:40 PM, Axel Thimm wrote: On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 07:55:41PM +0300, Timo Sirainen wrote: On Sep 25, 2009, at 7:49 PM, Eric Shubert wrote: Timo Sirainen wrote: On Sep 25, 2009, at 4:14 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: Has anyone seen an approach or a solution that solves the problem from a users point of view? A server side alias list that maps to a server standard? Symlinks maybe? Or something similar done internally. The main problem would anyway be LIST command, should it show all of them or somehow try to figure out which one to show? Do the clients identify which program they are? No. And one of the first commands they typically do is LIST. So there are no good ways to solve this. Although I haven't really seen much problems myself. Linux clients allow changing what mailboxes they use, so I just configure them to use the same as Apple Mail.. Given than you seem to bless Apple Mail folder structures it makes it a good candidate to try to push as a standard for others to copy. Maybe there could be example setups/configs shipped with dovecot that maps other naming conventions to Apple's? In that way dovecot would start to inforce the use of a standard which in the long term could become a real standard. If Apple's structure are not the best to go with, then we could use some other naming convention, I just trust that Timo's choice is not a bad one. ;) I personally dislike Apple Mail's special folder naming from a 'supporting users' viewpoint. By default it uses an underlying IMAP mailbox of Sent Items while displaying the name Sent in the GUI. It confuses folk that use both Apple Mail (Sent=Sent Items) and Thunderbird (Sent=Sent) to access their email account; because it makes little sense to the user it needs intervention by IT support to explain/fix (or they just suffer with two sent folders). That said, if Apple Mail in 10.6 already supports XLIST this oddity could potentially be fixed from the IMAP server side (ref my email 80 minutes ago). Thunderbird will have XLIST from v3 when released soon. (Doesn't Apple use dovecot on Mac OS X 10.6 server now? I'm surprised we haven't seen an XLIST plugin or patch to make the Mac-mail-client to Mac-mail-server universe all work together well. However it is early days for that extension.) Cheers, Rob Middleton.
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
Axel Thimm schrieb: On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 07:55:41PM +0300, Timo Sirainen wrote: On Sep 25, 2009, at 7:49 PM, Eric Shubert wrote: Timo Sirainen wrote: On Sep 25, 2009, at 4:14 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: Has anyone seen an approach or a solution that solves the problem from a users point of view? A server side alias list that maps to a server standard? Symlinks maybe? Or something similar done internally. The main problem would anyway be LIST command, should it show all of them or somehow try to figure out which one to show? Do the clients identify which program they are? No. And one of the first commands they typically do is LIST. So there are no good ways to solve this. Although I haven't really seen much problems myself. Linux clients allow changing what mailboxes they use, so I just configure them to use the same as Apple Mail.. Given than you seem to bless Apple Mail folder structures it makes it a good candidate to try to push as a standard for others to copy. Maybe there could be example setups/configs shipped with dovecot that maps other naming conventions to Apple's? In that way dovecot would start to inforce the use of a standard which in the long term could become a real standard. If Apple's structure are not the best to go with, then we could use some other naming convention, I just trust that Timo's choice is not a bad one. ;) sorry apple mail , has a long history of bugs with imap ( special it acted not very good with courier an other namespaces ) and there are no version for linux and windows, so i personally dont like it -- Best Regards MfG Robert Schetterer Germany/Munich/Bavaria
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
Hi, On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 12:33:21PM +0200, Robert Schetterer wrote: Axel Thimm schrieb: Given than you seem to bless Apple Mail folder structures it makes it a good candidate to try to push as a standard for others to copy. Maybe there could be example setups/configs shipped with dovecot that maps other naming conventions to Apple's? In that way dovecot would start to inforce the use of a standard which in the long term could become a real standard. If Apple's structure are not the best to go with, then we could use some other naming convention, I just trust that Timo's choice is not a bad one. ;) sorry apple mail , has a long history of bugs with imap ( special it acted not very good with courier an other namespaces ) and there are no version for linux and windows, so i personally dont like it Well, I wasn't advocating for using the client or any software part of Apple Mail, just the folder structure it uses in case it is universally useful and acceptable. In any case any standard be it derived from Apple Mail, something else, or maybe a new dovecot standard would be better than the current zoo of setups. And having dovecot implement that standard in default config files with mappings for the most common imap clients will certainly make it a widely used standard in the long term. -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net pgprbOXGBxyJG.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
* Robert Schetterer rob...@schetterer.org: but with autocreate and global sieve rules you can implement a pseudo standart i use tbs one and configure horde/imp like tb does it, in my meaning big players have no intension bring up even a pseudo standart cause they want users to use their own mail services and server implementations ( google, apple, m$, etc ) and earn money with it Yes, they want to. But they also want to create a great user experience for those that do not use web applications. but as reality shows, if there is a good faq side for your server setup most imap users are smart enough to configure their clients I know you and I don't mind to search the internet, read docs and try this or that until we find something that satisfies our needs. But the goal I am aiming for here is out of the box. And that means a good faq site is not acceptable (until I have to face reality...). p...@rick Hi Patrick, i allready tried it, i see no way to goal it yet, but its common i.e companies that there is only one mail client is supported, so if your server is only for them , there should be no Problem, in internet servers the only client which i support is thunderbird until its widly spreaded , free and for all os this is accepted since yours by the users, but your right having a standart would be very nice, but i dont think it will come ever Robert, you are missing the point. The scenario I am talking about is a typical, comsumer oriented ISP scenario. In this scenario I am not in a position to tell my users go read a Howto and neither am I able to control their client settings. In the scenario I am discussing right now, I try to find a way to adopt to what they have. Regardless of the client they use I always want to give them a consistent view on their data. p...@rick
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: It seems that there is no standard for folder names that deal with typical message classes such as drafts, outbox, sent, spam etc. At least there's no common sense on a naming convention that tells how client should handle this. Worse than this, most IMAP clients auto-create folders according to their own naming convention if they don't exist. Every client introduces its own view. Users OTOH expect a single view that makes it easy for them to find their messages. They are unwilling to search in sent, sent-mail or Sent items for messages that have been sent. I doubt that software producers will adopt a standard naming convention if it was introduced within a useful time span. Has anyone seen an approach or a solution that solves the problem from a users point of view? A server side alias list that maps to a server standard? A crude workaround would seem to be symlinks. Perhaps a cron job to scan for likely aliases, then merge them into your preferred folder names and symlink them. This would mean if the user creates a Sent folder, you would eventually find it, and symlink it to your Sent Items folder and merge any items created so far. This is imperfect in that you end up with multiple folders visible in the folder list (confusingly often showing the same data in each...). Deletes are also going to be fun because deleting Sent will just kill the symlink, deleting Sent Items will kill all your mail and leave the symlinks broken... Server side aliases would help here I guess? The XLIST extension as others have pointed out will help a lot. Feature request for Dovecot I guess? Possibly there is some clever way to use namespaces to help hide these duplicated folders..? Would love to see this solved myself also! Good luck Ed W
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
Rob Middleton schrieb: On 25/09/2009 11:14 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: It seems that there is no standard for folder names that deal with typical message classes such as drafts, outbox, sent, spam etc. At least there's no common sense on a naming convention that tells how client should handle this. XLIST may deal with this in the future. It has been initially implemented as an IMAP extension by GMail and Apple iPhone's email client. It allows localized naming of drafts, sent, etc while allowing the server to tell the client the mapping between well-known folder types and their actual name. http://groups.google.com/group/Gmail-Help-POP-and-IMAP-en/browse_thread/thread/a154105c54f020fb?pli=1 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=476260 It oddly seems to have been barely documented or pushed ... though it is sufficiently simple and useful that I hope it gets wide support. Cheers, Rob Middleton. that sounds very interesting , thx for info ! -- Best Regards MfG Robert Schetterer Germany/Munich/Bavaria
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
* Ed W li...@wildgooses.com: Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: It seems that there is no standard for folder names that deal with typical message classes such as drafts, outbox, sent, spam etc. At least there's no common sense on a naming convention that tells how client should handle this. Worse than this, most IMAP clients auto-create folders according to their own naming convention if they don't exist. Every client introduces its own view. Users OTOH expect a single view that makes it easy for them to find their messages. They are unwilling to search in sent, sent-mail or Sent items for messages that have been sent. I doubt that software producers will adopt a standard naming convention if it was introduced within a useful time span. Has anyone seen an approach or a solution that solves the problem from a users point of view? A server side alias list that maps to a server standard? A crude workaround would seem to be symlinks. Perhaps a cron job to scan for likely aliases, then merge them into your preferred folder names and symlink them. This would mean if the user creates a Sent folder, you would eventually find it, and symlink it to your Sent Items folder and merge any items created so far. Been there... This is imperfect in that you end up with multiple folders visible in the folder list (confusingly often showing the same data in each...). Deletes are also going to be fun because deleting Sent will just kill the symlink, deleting Sent Items will kill all your mail and leave the symlinks broken... Server side aliases would help here I guess? Exactly. You get n views instead of one. The total opposite of what I am aiming for at the moment. The XLIST extension as others have pointed out will help a lot. Feature request for Dovecot I guess? XLIST should be a standard. I haven't found a reference or at least an attempt to make it a standard yet. p...@rick Possibly there is some clever way to use namespaces to help hide these duplicated folders..? Would love to see this solved myself also! Good luck Ed W
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
* Rob Middleton robm-dove...@centenary.org.au: On 25/09/2009 11:14 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: It seems that there is no standard for folder names that deal with typical message classes such as drafts, outbox, sent, spam etc. At least there's no common sense on a naming convention that tells how client should handle this. XLIST may deal with this in the future. It has been initially implemented as an IMAP extension by GMail and Apple iPhone's email client. It allows localized naming of drafts, sent, etc while allowing the server to tell the client the mapping between well-known folder types and their actual name. http://groups.google.com/group/Gmail-Help-POP-and-IMAP-en/browse_thread/thread/a154105c54f020fb?pli=1 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=476260 It oddly seems to have been barely documented or pushed ... though it is sufficiently simple and useful that I hope it gets wide support. There you go. Thanks for the link. This sounds promising. p...@rick
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
Patrick Ben Koetter schrieb: * Robert Schetterer rob...@schetterer.org: but with autocreate and global sieve rules you can implement a pseudo standart i use tbs one and configure horde/imp like tb does it, in my meaning big players have no intension bring up even a pseudo standart cause they want users to use their own mail services and server implementations ( google, apple, m$, etc ) and earn money with it Yes, they want to. But they also want to create a great user experience for those that do not use web applications. but as reality shows, if there is a good faq side for your server setup most imap users are smart enough to configure their clients I know you and I don't mind to search the internet, read docs and try this or that until we find something that satisfies our needs. But the goal I am aiming for here is out of the box. And that means a good faq site is not acceptable (until I have to face reality...). p...@rick Hi Patrick, i allready tried it, i see no way to goal it yet, but its common i.e companies that there is only one mail client is supported, so if your server is only for them , there should be no Problem, in internet servers the only client which i support is thunderbird until its widly spreaded , free and for all os this is accepted since yours by the users, but your right having a standart would be very nice, but i dont think it will come ever Robert, you are missing the point. The scenario I am talking about is a typical, comsumer oriented ISP scenario. In this scenario I am not in a position to tell my users go read a Howto and neither am I able to control their client settings. In the scenario I am discussing right now, I try to find a way to adopt to what they have. Regardless of the client they use I always want to give them a consistent view on their data. p...@rick Hi Patrick, no i understood very well, but there to my knowledge there is no solution out there yet to solve your(our) problem ( unless it would be very wishfull to have it ), perhaps xlist stuff posted here today may help in the future, but in meantime you ll may have to face reality *g after all i only described that its seems not to be big problem here and otherwhere, cause if it would be , it would be solved in the past, and youre not right, many big mail providers teach their users in how to use with pictured faqs related in using common mail clients ( tb , apple mail, outlook etc ) with their meaning about standart imap folders but after all ,if there would be a solution i would use it at once lets talk about it on or planed Postfix Stammtisch ! -- Best Regards MfG Robert Schetterer Germany/Munich/Bavaria
[Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
It seems that there is no standard for folder names that deal with typical message classes such as drafts, outbox, sent, spam etc. At least there's no common sense on a naming convention that tells how client should handle this. Worse than this, most IMAP clients auto-create folders according to their own naming convention if they don't exist. Every client introduces its own view. Users OTOH expect a single view that makes it easy for them to find their messages. They are unwilling to search in sent, sent-mail or Sent items for messages that have been sent. I doubt that software producers will adopt a standard naming convention if it was introduced within a useful time span. Has anyone seen an approach or a solution that solves the problem from a users point of view? A server side alias list that maps to a server standard? p...@rick -- state of mind Digitale Kommunikation http://www.state-of-mind.de Franziskanerstraße 15 Telefon +49 89 3090 4664 81669 München Telefax +49 89 3090 4666 Amtsgericht MünchenPartnerschaftsregister PR 563
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
* Patrick Ben Koetter p...@state-of-mind.de: Has anyone seen an approach or a solution that solves the problem from a users point of view? A server side alias list that maps to a server standard? Tried that, didn't work out that great (users got confused by 12 dozillion sent folders). As for know, I auto-subscribe new users to a public namespace which contains information on how to configure their email clients exactly the same way that the different webmail interfaces I offer are. As a second line of defense, a cron script checks once a day if there is a typical duplication of folders (sent, sent-mail, Gesendet) and this script then proceeds to annoy the hell out of said users by sending them an email once a day, until the user either acknowledges that he doesn't care (database entry), fixes the problem or opts in for an automatic fix (moving messages to the right folders. Make sure to include a huge disclaimer, this kills indices). Ciao Stefan -- Stefan Förster http://www.incertum.net/ Public Key: 0xBBE2A9E9 FdI #28: ... werden wir den Schutz Minderjähriger in den Vordergrund - stellen. Im Grunde weiß ich genausowenig über die ganze Sache wie meine Wähler, aber verbieten bringt mehr Stimmen. (Peter Berlich)
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
On 9/25/2009, Stefan Förster (cite+dovecot-us...@incertum.net) wrote: Has anyone seen an approach or a solution that solves the problem from a users point of view? A server side alias list that maps to a server standard? Tried that, didn't work out that great (users got confused by 12 dozillion sent folders). Thats not how I read the OPs question... He wants to be able to configure some aliases server side so that if someone is using different clients that expect, for example, different folder names for the 'Sent' folder, it would map the expected name to a single folder on the server... For example... $user accesses their imap account using Outlook at work and ThunderBird at home. Outlook expects to use a 'Sent Items' folder, Thuderbird expects a 'Sent' folder. The OP wants to be able to define the folder to be used on the server as 'Sent', and map any *requests* for a 'Sent Items' folder to the 'Sent' folder... So, each Client sees *only* what it expects, but only one folder on the server is used - meaning, Outlook doesn't now have *both* a 'Sent* *and* a 'Sent Items', it only has 'Sent Items', but this displays what is in the 'Sent' folder on the server. I like the idea, but don't know how feasible it is...
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
On Sep 25, 2009, at 4:14 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: Has anyone seen an approach or a solution that solves the problem from a users point of view? A server side alias list that maps to a server standard? Symlinks maybe? Or something similar done internally. The main problem would anyway be LIST command, should it show all of them or somehow try to figure out which one to show?
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
Timo Sirainen wrote: On Sep 25, 2009, at 4:14 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: Has anyone seen an approach or a solution that solves the problem from a users point of view? A server side alias list that maps to a server standard? Symlinks maybe? Or something similar done internally. The main problem would anyway be LIST command, should it show all of them or somehow try to figure out which one to show? Do the clients identify which program they are? -- -Eric 'shubes'
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
Patrick Ben Koetter schrieb: It seems that there is no standard for folder names that deal with typical message classes such as drafts, outbox, sent, spam etc. At least there's no common sense on a naming convention that tells how client should handle this. Worse than this, most IMAP clients auto-create folders according to their own naming convention if they don't exist. Every client introduces its own view. Users OTOH expect a single view that makes it easy for them to find their messages. They are unwilling to search in sent, sent-mail or Sent items for messages that have been sent. I doubt that software producers will adopt a standard naming convention if it was introduced within a useful time span. Has anyone seen an approach or a solution that solves the problem from a users point of view? A server side alias list that maps to a server standard? p...@rick Hi Patrick, i see no way to push coders to standart folders use but with autocreate and global sieve rules you can implement a pseudo standart i use tbs one and configure horde/imp like tb does it, in my meaning big players have no intension bring up even a pseudo standart cause they want users to use their own mail services and server implementations ( google, apple, m$, etc ) and earn money with it but as reality shows, if there is a good faq side for your server setup most imap users are smart enough to configure their clients -- Best Regards MfG Robert Schetterer Germany/Munich/Bavaria
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
* Charles Marcus dovecot@dovecot.org: On 9/25/2009, Stefan Förster (cite+dovecot-us...@incertum.net) wrote: Has anyone seen an approach or a solution that solves the problem from a users point of view? A server side alias list that maps to a server standard? Tried that, didn't work out that great (users got confused by 12 dozillion sent folders). Thats not how I read the OPs question... He wants to be able to configure some aliases server side so that if someone is using different clients that expect, for example, different folder names for the 'Sent' folder, it would map the expected name to a single folder on the server... For example... $user accesses their imap account using Outlook at work and ThunderBird at home. Outlook expects to use a 'Sent Items' folder, Thuderbird expects a 'Sent' folder. The OP wants to be able to define the folder to be used on the server as 'Sent', and map any *requests* for a 'Sent Items' folder to the 'Sent' folder... So, each Client sees *only* what it expects, but only one folder on the server is used - meaning, Outlook doesn't now have *both* a 'Sent* *and* a 'Sent Items', it only has 'Sent Items', but this displays what is in the 'Sent' folder on the server. Yes. That is exactly the behaviour I was thinking of. And I wonder if it is possible... I like the idea, but don't know how feasible it is... Same here :) p...@rick
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
* Timo Sirainen dovecot@dovecot.org: On Sep 25, 2009, at 7:49 PM, Eric Shubert wrote: Timo Sirainen wrote: On Sep 25, 2009, at 4:14 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: Has anyone seen an approach or a solution that solves the problem from a users point of view? A server side alias list that maps to a server standard? Symlinks maybe? Or something similar done internally. The main problem would anyway be LIST command, should it show all of them or somehow try to figure out which one to show? Do the clients identify which program they are? No. And one of the first commands they typically do is LIST. So there are no good ways to solve this. I suspected that. Would it be possible to identify a client by the folders it tries to subscribe to? Although I haven't really seen much problems myself. Linux clients allow changing what mailboxes they use, so I just configure them to use the same as Apple Mail.. Most clients, independent of the OS, allow to change folder settings, but that requires user interaction. User interaction or server side configuration is fine if it takes place in a company, but its not feasible in an ISP environment. p...@rick
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
* Robert Schetterer rob...@schetterer.org: Patrick Ben Koetter schrieb: It seems that there is no standard for folder names that deal with typical message classes such as drafts, outbox, sent, spam etc. At least there's no common sense on a naming convention that tells how client should handle this. Worse than this, most IMAP clients auto-create folders according to their own naming convention if they don't exist. Every client introduces its own view. Users OTOH expect a single view that makes it easy for them to find their messages. They are unwilling to search in sent, sent-mail or Sent items for messages that have been sent. I doubt that software producers will adopt a standard naming convention if it was introduced within a useful time span. Has anyone seen an approach or a solution that solves the problem from a users point of view? A server side alias list that maps to a server standard? p...@rick Hi Patrick, i see no way to push coders to standart folders use I do. I just takes a lot of time. Well, at least most of them would follow... ;) but with autocreate and global sieve rules you can implement a pseudo standart i use tbs one and configure horde/imp like tb does it, in my meaning big players have no intension bring up even a pseudo standart cause they want users to use their own mail services and server implementations ( google, apple, m$, etc ) and earn money with it Yes, they want to. But they also want to create a great user experience for those that do not use web applications. but as reality shows, if there is a good faq side for your server setup most imap users are smart enough to configure their clients I know you and I don't mind to search the internet, read docs and try this or that until we find something that satisfies our needs. But the goal I am aiming for here is out of the box. And that means a good faq site is not acceptable (until I have to face reality...). p...@rick
Re: [Dovecot] OT: IMAP folder aliases
* Patrick Ben Koetter p...@state-of-mind.de: * Timo Sirainen dovecot@dovecot.org: No. And one of the first commands they typically do is LIST. So there are no good ways to solve this. I suspected that. Would it be possible to identify a client by the folders it tries to subscribe to? You could, of course, have a list of folders to hide in a LIST command. Most clients would then try to create those folders (a request which is ignored) and the IMAP server had to redirect all further select requests. Something along the lines of: /etc/dovecot/dovecot-ignore-aliases-in-list-or-create-command-and-redirect-select: sent-mail gesendet/i,gesendete nachrichten/i,sent\(-mail\)?/i trash trash/i,junk/i,geloeschte\ objekte/i User interaction or server side configuration is fine if it takes place in a company, but its not feasible in an ISP environment. A corporate environment doesn't need that kind of functionality. Just preconfigure all installed software to suit your company's needs. Ciao Stefan -- Stefan Förster http://www.incertum.net/ Public Key: 0xBBE2A9E9 Er nahm sich das Leben - so wie er es brauchte.
