[e-gold-list] Re: Income tax
Firstly sorry for any topic violations, I will just post a breif response to the questions asked. Japan has, in the last 15 years, clocked up an outstanding public debt of about 150% of a year's GDP, which is over twice that of the USA. And it made things worse, not better! New Zealand has been running a large surplus of about 3-4% GDP for the last few years but the economy keeps doing well. Germany and France are following Japan and getting the same results. So, how does New Zealand do it? George Hara New Zealand is generally rated as being the third most free market economy, after Hong Kong and Sinapore, after extensive market liberalisation 1984-1988 (Fourth Labour governemnt), and 1990-1992 (Fourth National Government). This included elimination of capital controls, removal of the wage-price-interest rate-rent freeze, elimination of quotas and import licencing, progressive unilateral tarrif elimination, corporatisation and privatisation of state trading departments (coal, oil and gas, rail, postal services, state banks, public works, airports, airlines, ports, electricity (generation, transmission and distribution), and the rest), product market deregulation, agricultural and business subsidy elimination (1984), tax reform including reducing the top tax rate from 66% to 33% (almost was reduced to 23% in 1988, but the Prime Minister backed out of the plan), elimination of the wholesale sales taxes, elimination of all stamp duties (including on land transfer in 1998), labour market deregulation (1991 'the method of negotiation is up for negotiation'), fiscal reform including the State Sector Act (a model state sector structure and reform recently promoted by its architect Sir Roger Douglas to the UK -- a must read report actually), Fiscal Responsibility Act (which resulted in surpluses since 1993 to the present, and the repayment of the public debt) and various other market liberalisation programs, including welfare benefit reductions in 1991. That is the primary reason for the overall good results, especially compared to the 1960-1984 period. The particular reason why the economy has been strong and surpluses very large in the last few years has been: needless tax hikes that increased the top tax rate to 39%, some cancelled defence spending and lack of participation in the war on terrorism, freezing of the unilateral progressive elimination program with a freeze in tariff rates until 2005, and a program to partially prefund the 'National Superannuation' by accumulating large surpluses in a dedicated fund, and resisting calls from the opposition to cut the top tax rate to 25% (and calls from its own tax reform commission, which recommended a top rate of 28% and a bottom rate of 18% only because the government specifically told them not to consider a flat rate of tax). Also general public spending has been falling as a percentage of GDP while brack creep pushes tax payers into higher brackets, and a property construction boom. And many expats returned home after 11/9/2001, and increased immigration and arrival of refugees. David Hillary --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Income tax
Sorry Ian, If any government that borrows from the IMF or some other lender fiat currency and has to repay the principle and pay interest on the amount borrowed they can never get out of debt to the IMF because the interest was never put into circulation with the principle. In the economy of any country money comes into existence as debt to a bank as more and more people borrow they create a community pool of funds that feed and circulate through the economy until that money finds its way back to the banks as people repay the principle borrowed and pay the interest requested. The interest comes from the community pool of funds, which means that every time someone pays their loan out completely stops someone else from paying their loan off without further borrowing. If you are suggesting that it is possible for the Australian or New Zealand Government to get out of debt, then sir you are telling me they the Governments mentioned are printing USD as they need them to pay the interest owing. Remember the IMF wants back what it loaned plus the interest which it didn't loan. Jesus Perez --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.522 / Virus Database: 320 - Release Date: 29-09-03 --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Income tax
James, give us some slack. There is a lot of interest on the *destination* of money... Jim, shoot cubans if they would try to invade USA I would not shoot all Cubans who seek to enter the USA Once more your answer was beyond my question. I said if they would try to invade! why you support the military draft Because of this statement I answered to this post of yours... Another assumtion with no support! On the contrary, I believe the military drafting and school (as it is now anywhere in the world - punishing those who don't know, instead of rewarding those who do know) are the most destructive and ferocious blood sucking, flesh eating and rot makers monsters human kind ever created. These are, for me, the nightmarish brain washing monsters, not taxes. (And... private school is the same as public school but also takes one's money for brain washing him.) I support a general tax because it makes things more homegenous, as in, everybody pay less, globally. Sure, the rich pay more than the poor. At this point I have to say I would gladly pay 5 - 10% of (say) my $10 millions a year income to see that the society in its whole is a little better. Profit is not what drives my life! Either I pay, from my money, localy to support road building, or I pay to the center its the same thing - I still pay. You say you're not forced to pay localy. Yes you are! Otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to use those roads. And I will not reiterate what Khurram said about private property... Are you saying that the conservative parties in New Zealand and Australia are socialists? No, no! Ian said conservatives and labours agree. I also think we both agree the Labour party has socialist orientation. Since the system is doing well relative to other capitalists-only systems, I thought I make a little joke :) Last time I checked they were rather moderate. Why not Google for the answers instead of expecting others to provide information at your whim? Sure, actually, why waste my time on this list when I can comfortably google the net for everything?! Regards, George Hara --- Xnet scaneaza automat toate mesajele impotriva virusilor folosind RAV AntiVirus. Xnet automatically scans all messages for viruses using RAV AntiVirus. Nota: RAV AntiVirus poate sa nu detecteze toti virusii noi sau toate variantele lor. Va rugam sa luati in considerare ca exista un risc de fiecare data cand deschideti fisiere atasate si ca MobiFon nu este responsabila pentru nici un prejudiciu cauzat de virusi. Disclaimer: RAV AntiVirus may not be able to detect all new viruses and variants. Please be aware that there is a risk involved whenever opening e-mail attachments to your computer and that MobiFon is not responsible for any damages caused by viruses. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Income tax
Wayne wrote Taxation is theft, by definition. Period. At 08:33 PM 10/14/03 +0300, FileMatrix wrote: I guess if there would be no US government (no tax = no administration) you would take a shotgun and shoot cubans if they would try to invade USA, right? ;) No, I don't give a rat's ass about arbitrary lines that gangs of hoodlums draw on maps. Just because the particular gang in question (the government known as the United States of America) claims to have a right to rule over me does not make me feel any affiliation with them. Wayne _ Need an experienced programmer who knows both the Unix and Microsoft worlds? Then you need to hire Wayne: http://hirewayne.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Income tax
At 12:39 PM 10/15/03 +0300, FileMatrix wrote: I support a general tax because it makes things more homegenous, as in, everybody pay less, globally. But everybody does NOT pay less. The bottom line of solving human problems through coercion is more expensive and less effective solutions - if the problems are solved at all, and more problems caused on top of the ones that are being so poorly solved. Sure, the rich pay more than the poor. At this point I have to say I would gladly pay 5 - 10% of (say) my $10 millions a year income to see that the society in its whole is a little better. You don't have that choice. The problem with taxes is that they are coercive. And society in its whole is not better. Profit is not what drives my life! Either I pay, from my money, localy to support road building, or I pay to the center its the same thing - I still pay. It's not the same thing. One is coercive and one is not. You say you're not forced to pay localy. Yes you are! Otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to use those roads. That's not coercion, that's exchanging value for value. Wayne _ Need an experienced programmer who knows both the Unix and Microsoft worlds? Then you need to hire Wayne: http://hirewayne.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Income tax
Hello George, I have often wondered if it was possible to do away with inflation, all taxes, etc. and simply replace them with a flexible GST (goods and services tax). The simplified version would look like this: Every good and service is subject to a surcharge of say 5%, without exemption. Different to widely used VAT systems, there would be no way to claim the GST back, instead, there would be double and tripple taxation in sor far, that the raw material is taxed, the wages are taxed, the packaging is taxed, the cost of transport to the wholesale, the sale to the retailer, etc. It would likely build up to about 30 or 40% anyway, but it would happen to everyone, independent of income, property, background etc. Moreover, it would happen to all imported goods as well. From the time they arrive at US shores to the time you put it into your All-American shelf, fridge, stomach, etc. it would have accumulated some 15-20% tax on the way. Imagine the savings on paper work, enforcement, etc. As Jim says, the real tax in the US is about 50% anyway, in most EU countries it's likely even higher. Now, the next stage, after introducing the system would be to set the annual rate in accordance with the marco economic climate. If the economy is overheating, increase the tax to 7 or 8%, shortly inflation will increase as business passes the higher tax on to the consumer, consumers buy less and start saving for the next low-tax year. Busines will drop the prices to increase sales, growth is reduced and despite the higher tax, the threat of deflation appears. Once that happens, the goverment reduces the tax to 4% to kickstart things and everybody runs to buy the stuff the've been saving for. Workable? Too simple? Not enough control over consumers? I don't know, you tell me :o) Cheers, Robert PS - we are being dDOSsed on and off, on server05 (which happens to include cyfrocash.net accounting and cyberica.net hosting) in retaliation for us suspending blue-market.com last night; please be patient while we are working on ways to shoot back. servers01-04, 06 (cyberfrontier.biz, etc.) and up are not effected and function normal. budget privacy website hosting http://www.cyberica.net e-commerce e-business services http://www.cyfrocash.com budget domain registrations http://www.u2planet.com --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Income tax
tax for people (not companies) is unique (no progressive taxation levels) and around 14%, and they are doing well since it was introduced. Russia's income tax on wages is a flat rate of 13%. Unique? No, the Ukarine now has copied the policy. David, as you can see in parenthesis, after unique, I explained no progressive taxation levels (as in 10%, 15%, 20%... as the income increases). That's what I meant by unique; I should have said flat from the start. Yes, there are several other eastern european countries using this simple system. By income / revenue I mean all the income (salary, rent, interest, investment returns, whatever) of a person (in this case I ignore companies), from any source and in any form (money or goods, or any other kind of value exchanged for services), income made on the territory where it is taxed. Maybe in USA income is used in a different way, but this is what I meant - the revenue. Of course, income that was already taxed is not added to the total. If the revenues of companies are also added to the system, the flat general tax can (I strongly believe) be decreased toward 5%. I don't agree with property tax because the property either generates income by what people do on it and so it would be taxed since it adds to the income of a person, or it generates no income and so it shouldn't be taxed. Of course, some people can choose not to do anything with their land, which would negatively affect the local economy, but I still don't agree with taxing the property since it was bought (= it changed owner). In such a case, the state (if it is the seller) can stipulate in the contract that the owner must generate revenue with the property or sell it, else the property goes back to the state. Regards, George Hara --- Xnet scaneaza automat toate mesajele impotriva virusilor folosind RAV AntiVirus. Xnet automatically scans all messages for viruses using RAV AntiVirus. Nota: RAV AntiVirus poate sa nu detecteze toti virusii noi sau toate variantele lor. Va rugam sa luati in considerare ca exista un risc de fiecare data cand deschideti fisiere atasate si ca MobiFon nu este responsabila pentru nici un prejudiciu cauzat de virusi. Disclaimer: RAV AntiVirus may not be able to detect all new viruses and variants. Please be aware that there is a risk involved whenever opening e-mail attachments to your computer and that MobiFon is not responsible for any damages caused by viruses. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Income tax
From: Robert B.Z. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: e-gold Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 9:19 PM Subject: [e-gold-list] Re: Income tax Hello George, I have often wondered if it was possible to do away with inflation, all taxes, etc. and simply replace them with a flexible GST (goods and services tax). It is possible to do this, as Vanuatu has done (if you ignore the import tariffs). However, this is not what you propose. The simplified version would look like this: Every good and service is subject to a surcharge of say 5%, without exemption. Different to widely used VAT systems, there would be no way to claim the GST back, instead, there would be double and tripple taxation in sor far, that the raw material is taxed, the wages are taxed, the packaging is taxed, the cost of transport to the wholesale, the sale to the retailer, etc. It would likely build up to about 30 or 40% anyway, but it would happen to everyone, independent of income, property, background etc. Imagine the savings on paper work, enforcement, etc. There are very good reasons for avoiding the cascading effects of such taxes. Like the horrible distortion and the massive vertical integration that would follow. Income tax, as it operates now, can be greatly simplified by: 1. territorialisation --tax only income earned from the territory of the taxing authority 2. source orientation -- tax income at the first suitable opportunity and exempt it from any taxation and reporting after this 3. low flat rates 4. depersonalisation -- tax income assessable from property and business, without discimination among recipients. Now, the next stage, after introducing the system would be to set the annual rate in accordance with the marco economic climate. If the economy is overheating, increase the tax to 7 or 8%, shortly inflation will increase as business passes the higher tax on to the consumer, consumers buy less and start saving for the next low-tax year. Busines will drop the prices to increase sales, growth is reduced and despite the higher tax, the threat of deflation appears. Once that happens, the goverment reduces the tax to 4% to kickstart things and everybody runs to buy the stuff the've been saving for. Workable? Too simple? Not enough control over consumers? I don't know, you tell me :o) I'm afraid your macro-economics are as bad as your fiscal policy economics. It just does not work to stimulate the economy by fiscal policy, apart from structural reform of fiscal policy to reduce taxation and eliminate inefficient taxes and government programs (i.e. pretty much all of them). Japan has, in the last 15 years, clocked up an outstanding public debt of about 150% of a year's GDP, which is over twice that of the USA. And it made things worse, not better! New Zealand has been running a large surplus of about 3-4% GDP for the last few years but the economy keeps doing well. Germany and France are following Japan and getting the same results. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Income tax
Robert, Imagine the savings on paper work, enforcement, etc. This is probably the most important reason why Russia (and other countries) use such a simple taxation system. To avoid the multiple taxation issue, companies would be allowed to NOT add the expenses to the total income. So, no VAT is required, no multiple taxation occurs. (This is why I wanted to separate people from companies) Regards, George Hara --- Xnet scaneaza automat toate mesajele impotriva virusilor folosind RAV AntiVirus. Xnet automatically scans all messages for viruses using RAV AntiVirus. Nota: RAV AntiVirus poate sa nu detecteze toti virusii noi sau toate variantele lor. Va rugam sa luati in considerare ca exista un risc de fiecare data cand deschideti fisiere atasate si ca MobiFon nu este responsabila pentru nici un prejudiciu cauzat de virusi. Disclaimer: RAV AntiVirus may not be able to detect all new viruses and variants. Please be aware that there is a risk involved whenever opening e-mail attachments to your computer and that MobiFon is not responsible for any damages caused by viruses. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Income tax
David, Japan has, in the last 15 years, clocked up an outstanding public debt of about 150% of a year's GDP, which is over twice that of the USA. And it made things worse, not better! New Zealand has been running a large surplus of about 3-4% GDP for the last few years but the economy keeps doing well. Germany and France are following Japan and getting the same results. So, how does New Zealand do it? Regards, George Hara --- Xnet scaneaza automat toate mesajele impotriva virusilor folosind RAV AntiVirus. Xnet automatically scans all messages for viruses using RAV AntiVirus. Nota: RAV AntiVirus poate sa nu detecteze toti virusii noi sau toate variantele lor. Va rugam sa luati in considerare ca exista un risc de fiecare data cand deschideti fisiere atasate si ca MobiFon nu este responsabila pentru nici un prejudiciu cauzat de virusi. Disclaimer: RAV AntiVirus may not be able to detect all new viruses and variants. Please be aware that there is a risk involved whenever opening e-mail attachments to your computer and that MobiFon is not responsible for any damages caused by viruses. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Income tax
Hello Helen, There are very good reasons for avoiding the cascading effects of such taxes. Like the horrible distortion and the massive vertical integration that would follow. Sorry, but could you elaborate? I'm pretty bad with the buzzwords du jour and under distortion I would understand that everybody pays based on their consumption rather than their income or wealth, which I wouldn't find horrible. Well, and for me vertical integration has to do with conglomeratization in which companies produce everything from raw material to finished product. The time where this was beneficial has passed and the most money is being made by smart outsourcing strategies. So, while I can see that someone would look into saving some of the tax by making everything inhouse, the increased cost of the workforce (which is taxed) higher overheads (which are taxed) and lower efficencies due to larger internal bureacratic procedures would be likely to erase the mere thought before it was going into a business plan. Of course, I might have completely misunderstood you, which is why I'm asking. Income tax, as it operates now, can be greatly simplified by: 1. territorialisation --tax only income earned from the territory of the taxing authority 2. source orientation -- tax income at the first suitable opportunity and exempt it from any taxation and reporting after this 3. low flat rates 4. depersonalisation -- tax income assessable from property and business, without discimination among recipients. I do agree with all points, but believe that your proposal would lead to higher overall taxes, as more and more high income eraners will simply move overseas and take their wealth (and brains) with them, to take advantage of the territorialization. But again, i might be wrong. I'm afraid your macro-economics are as bad as your fiscal policy economics. That must be why I'm getting all those job offers from the US. They need someone to blame ;o) It just does not work to stimulate the economy by fiscal policy, apart from structural reform of fiscal policy to reduce taxation and eliminate inefficient taxes and government programs (i.e. pretty much all of them). I did not argue for or against stimulation as such, but considered it a give. Everybody does it - well, every decent size economy - and they appear to believe in it, even if might not work. My question was actually if such a system could replace interest rate manipulation. I sort of implied that this was continuing the genral discussion about inflation, paper, fiat, gold, etc. Hence my proposal was that maybe a flexible rate of a flat GST could do what everyonone else is trying to do with rising and lowering interest rates - possibly with the same result. George, What happens if I plant trees on my land? You know, I buy the land, plant trees to start a saw mill in a decade or two. hence I will derive an income in future, but not till then. If the government confiscates my land because of that, who will invest into Agrobusiness - in other words, what will we eat and where do we get natural raw materials (timber, pulp, etc.) from after all trees are cut? Just wondering. Cheers, Robert. budget privacy website hosting http://www.cyberica.net e-commerce e-business services http://www.cyfrocash.net budget domain registrations http://www.u2planet.com --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Income tax
David, Interest is a distribution of income, not a source of income. Investments are not a source of income either Okay, I understand that. Taxing these would mean multiple taxation. Of course, (I already said) the taxable income must not included income that was already taxed. Property is a source of economic rent and economic interest. Right, and I said I would added the rent to the total income. In this way a property is assessed according to its value, rather than the manner in which that value is received or enjoyed. It also eliminates the need to account for rent, outgoings, capital gains and depreciation. But this would mean to evaluate each property... and thus complicate the system. If the rent is added to the income, the tax is simply paid to the total. I see that you include individual properties here, but I don't agree to pay tax on it since I live there, I don't make money out of it. P.S. Funny thing, I was also born on May 24-th (1974)! Regards, George Hara --- Xnet scaneaza automat toate mesajele impotriva virusilor folosind RAV AntiVirus. Xnet automatically scans all messages for viruses using RAV AntiVirus. Nota: RAV AntiVirus poate sa nu detecteze toti virusii noi sau toate variantele lor. Va rugam sa luati in considerare ca exista un risc de fiecare data cand deschideti fisiere atasate si ca MobiFon nu este responsabila pentru nici un prejudiciu cauzat de virusi. Disclaimer: RAV AntiVirus may not be able to detect all new viruses and variants. Please be aware that there is a risk involved whenever opening e-mail attachments to your computer and that MobiFon is not responsible for any damages caused by viruses. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Income tax
Robert, Hello Helen, I think this was from another email ;) What happens if I plant trees on my land? You know, I buy the land, plant trees to start a saw mill in a decade or two. hence I will derive an income in future, but not till then. If the government confiscates my land because of that, who will invest into Agrobusiness - in other words, what will we eat and where do we get natural raw materials (timber, pulp, etc.) from after all trees are cut? Any contract has to be negotiated to meet the buyer's needs. So, the contract has to allow the buyer to plant his trees and make a profit after years. If the buyer doesn't like the terms, he doesn't buy the land. Even if there is a property tax, nothing guarantees that the owner uses the land. Regards, George Hara --- Xnet scaneaza automat toate mesajele impotriva virusilor folosind RAV AntiVirus. Xnet automatically scans all messages for viruses using RAV AntiVirus. Nota: RAV AntiVirus poate sa nu detecteze toti virusii noi sau toate variantele lor. Va rugam sa luati in considerare ca exista un risc de fiecare data cand deschideti fisiere atasate si ca MobiFon nu este responsabila pentru nici un prejudiciu cauzat de virusi. Disclaimer: RAV AntiVirus may not be able to detect all new viruses and variants. Please be aware that there is a risk involved whenever opening e-mail attachments to your computer and that MobiFon is not responsible for any damages caused by viruses. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Income tax
At 12:36 PM 10/14/03 +0300, FileMatrix wrote: Dear Jim, Well I guess I fall under the anybody else who wants to answer category. :-) ... As [somebody] point out, the average american pays 50% taxes. Do you think that a system with no inflation and with a flat 5 - 10% income tax (for everybody, person or company) is also theft? Taxation is theft, by definition. Period. I have in mind that there is no other type of tax, like: VAT, property tax, welth tax... whatever. Obviously, I am thinking that the income tax is used for what the country needs (even if you would say you or anyone else don't know what the country needs). Does this kind of system seem fair to you (or anybody else who wants to answer)? No. Wayne _ Need an experienced programmer who knows both the Unix and Microsoft worlds? Then you need to hire Wayne: http://hirewayne.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Income tax
In New Zealand and Australia the key leaders in both the 'conservative' and Labor parties (not necessarily the rank and file members) learnt from the economic devastation of the 1970s and 1980s that Keynes was dangerously wrong. Stimulation by government spending does not for long decrease unemployment (or increase employment) and it always bites you on the bum with a vicious cycle of ever-increasing debt and interest costs and rates, inflation, reduced investment, unemployment, increasing welfare costs and government deficits and increasing taxes, ad infinitum. Australia and New Zealand had continued to wreck the economy throughout the 1980s while USA had prosperity. It was not until about 1990 or so that both neighbouring countries decided they had to bite-the-bullet (make the temporarily painful decision) and begin to pay off the national debt and to adopt *less* Keynesian policies. The first step in having a budget surplus is *deciding* to permanently have a budget surplus! That is, to have a continually reducing debt and at some point in the future to have no government debt whatsoever and never again to have a deficit. Also taxation reduction is a key element, that will come into play as the debt approaches zero. On the other hand, USA (Bush) seems to have abandoned all fiscal common sense (if he ever had any) and in his destruction-lead economy proceeded on a mad rush to phenomenal debt and future tax increases, with present insane spending, foreign war adventures and domestic totalitarianism. I must admit that Australia too has spent hundreds of millions on this war, but this is nothing to compare to the Bush trillions, and the budget surplus (and positive economic growth) remains - according to forcasts. Regards, Ian Green From: FileMatrix Sent: Tuesday, 14 October 2003 10:16 PM To: e-gold Discussion Subject: [e-gold-list] Re: Income tax New Zealand has been running a large surplus of about 3-4% GDP for the last few years but the economy keeps doing well. So, how does New Zealand do it? --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Income tax
I don't know about that. The socialists are prone to relapse. Now that *most* of the national debt has been repaid (under a 'conservative' government), I would not trust a future Labor government to reduce taxation AND spending. The previous Labor Party government had to disavow the earlier disastrous Labor government economic policies, but now that the (largest part of the) economic pain is becoming a mere memory, Labor is prepared to commit to too many spending proposals, despite continuing to claim to be committed to balanced budgets. For instance, the Labor Party from time to time criticizes the Liberal Party government (or conservative, supposed to be classical Liberal, but I doubt that most members of parliament even remember what that means) for having too large a surplus. In response, Labor vows to spend (even) more on health, education and welfare! In fact, before the War on Terror (and more significantly, a collapse in the price of Telstra shares) the treasurer had plans to complete the privatisation of Telstra and then to pay off the entire balance of the government debt. Certain interests went into a panic, because that meant that the government would have no way to control the economy through the government bond market. From what we hear from USA, I am certain that people in Australia on average incomes pay considerably less taxation than people on equivalent purchasing power in USA, and many people (especially families) on low incomes, due to reverse taxation and welfare policies often in reality pay nothing or are nett recipients of government funds, but there are people in both countries earning a lot more than that also. I'm sure no one will be surprised that the top tax rates here remain considerably higher than those in USA. (Although the maximum is generally about 50% income tax (Federal only), and 10 percent GST. Unfortunately, there remains a high amount of taxation on petrol. There are no death or estate taxes, but there is a 15 percent tax on superannuation contributions (the employer-contributed part of which is income tax exempt). There has also never been any tax liability on proceeds of gambling and competitions, because they know the house (which pays taxes) wins on average, including lotteries. So lotto winners get the whole lot, tax free, no matter how many millions it may be. However, this in no way negates the established principal that a fool and his money is soon parted. Regards, Ian Green From: FileMatrix [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 15 October 2003 3:34 AM To: e-gold Discussion Subject: [e-gold-list] Re: Income tax SNIP In New Zealand and Australia the key leaders in both the 'conservative' and Labor parties learnt from the economic devastation Talk about socialists knowing better than capitalists :) Good news! At this time, do they have higher taxes than USA (say 40% or more)? Last time I checked they were rather moderate. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Income tax
The rallying cry of the American Colonists was No Taxation Without Representation. Its ironic that the same cry would apply today. Taxation Without Representation is the way politics in our nation are conducted. Unlike in many/most parliamentary systems, the U.S. state and federal elections structure make it almost impossible for 3rd party candidates to get elected, yet their supporters continue to be taxed. People under the voting age in their states who work and pay taxes have no representation. All residents of D.C. have no representative in Congress who can vote. Most all convicted felons are denied the vote yet they are expected to pay taxes. This is wrong. It must stop. steve --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Income tax
On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 02:38 PM, Ian Green wrote: ... Unfortunately, there remains a high amount of taxation on petrol. ... Petrol taxes are closer to user fees than any other tax. The more miles you drive, the more you pay for roads. So of all the despised and dreaded taxes, petrol taxes are my favorite. Nevertheless, I still don't think even petrol taxes are necessary. In a completely free market many companies and individuals would have an economic interest in building and maintaining roads: oil and trucking companies primarily. I could easily see these companies singlehandedly financing all the long-haul routes, completely doing away with the need for a government-financed interstate highway system. People living in subdivisions can finance their own local roads. Business owners on a main strip can finance the local business routes, with terms built right into the title deeds. So even in a free market we would have nearly the equivalent of gasoline taxes -- the oil companies would simply take some of the money you pay at the pump and invest it in roads. But it would not be a tax because no force is involved. I could even see an individual oil company creating a large highway, let's say Amoco Route 59, and installing Amoco gasoline stations every twenty miles along it. Or a consortium of oil and trucking companies could embark on join investments -- they all have a vested interest in getting roads built to all the places people most want to go. As far as I can tell, taxes are a terribly inefficient and morally objectionable blunt instrument for getting things done. There are far better ways of doing things. -- Patrick http://fexl.com --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Income tax
Folks, please. Let's discuss money, not taxes (which, in my experience, are the closest thing to the opposite of money). JMR --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Income tax
Dear George, I think that is true, but only if there *is* inflation. So, when Danny said 10% inflation, I believe he was thinking about it in a system where there is no income tax (he said he prefers such a system). Naturally, I don't prefer such a system. I think the idea of preferring one type of theft to another is mistaken. It is a bit like saying that one would rather one's virgin daughter be gang-raped by Yale graduates rather than Bronx high school drop outs. Some might say that the gruesome imagery just evoked is provocative and wrong. I think a tax of 10%, be it inflation or income tax, is provocative and wrong, and far more gruesome in its consequences. they are doing well since it was introduced. That's nice. It is always somewhat refreshing when the thieves take less. I think the Reagan tax cut was a nice thing, compared to the earlier rates. As you point out, the average american pays 50% taxes. I think Americans pay a lot of taxes. I'm not sure it is 50% on average. Not that it matters. Theft is still theft, even if it is a tenth of a percent. Do you think that a system with no inflation and with a flat 5 - 10% income tax (for everybody, person or company) is also theft? Yes, of course. Let's take that in two pieces. First, a system with no inflation. I don't know of any such system. Over the thousands of years that gold has been money, about 2% more gold has been brought up from mines and put into circulation, on average every year. More money chasing comparable goods and services would be inflationary. I do think that population growth and productivity enhancements are deflationary - placing more goods and services into the market. I question whether the two forces would ever be perfectly in balance. And, I am unconcerned. Separating the issue power of money from government is a good thing. Free market money may include some inflation, some deflation, and other effects. It would be better than fiat money. A flat tax is still theft. The argument that it is better because everyone pays it is silly. Everyone does not pay it. Productive people pay it. Those who are not productive don't. Those without income don't. And there is nothing about a tax paid by everyone which excludes it from theft. Taxation is theft. A truly flat tax would be a flat fee. A percentage of income is a progressive tax. It means that more total taxes are paid by the most productive, and less total taxes are paid by the least productive. Such an arrangement penalizes the productive for their ability to produce wealth. Inevitably, it rewards those who are less productive or unable to produce, because these types are the ones who go into government work, or are paid by the government to remain indigent. To understand what is meant by a progressive tax, you should look up the history of the progressive movement. Income tax was their idea. It was a bad idea. I have in mind that there is no other type of tax, like: VAT, property tax, welth tax... whatever. I think it is good to envision a system where all these other taxes are gone. I'm pleased that you see some value in thinking of a system where most taxes are gone. Now take the next logical step. If that system is best which taxes least, the inevitable conclusion is: that system is best which taxes not at all. Obviously, I am thinking that the income tax is used for what the country needs But, again, that's silly. Why steal from people to provide them what they need? Why not let people keep their own money and provide for their own needs? Who produces these needful things if there are taxes? Individuals produce needful things. Companies and enterprises produce needful things. What if there were no taxes? Would all needful things cease to be produced? Of course not. Take public transportation for an example. Who builds the highways? Private contractors paid with tax dollars, generally by a corrupt contract allocation process. Are they suddenly unable to build highways when the government has no tax dollars? On the contrary, they build more and better roads when they are doing so in the free market. What about light rail and bus systems? Wouldn't these disappear in a free market? Maybe they would. Perhaps mass transit systems aren't worth having, and shouldn't be subsidized at great expense. Yet, we see that jitney vans operate in most major cities, without taxi licenses and without tax subsidies in many cases. People do organize their affairs to provide transportation to those without cars because their is money to be made doing so. (even if you would say you or anyone else don't know what the country needs). Actually, I would say that everyone knows what the country needs. The country needs to eliminate all forms of theft, all forms of slavery, all forms of initiatory force. These are obvious needs. Taxation is a form of theft, it is tantamount to slavery, and it is always enforced with initiatory force. What you may be thinking I
[e-gold-list] Re: Income tax
There is usually a lot of bashing of taxes on this list but no one is able to suggest a viable alternative. It is silly to argue that government is NOT a necessary to evil because we need some services to be public. Let's take roads for example. If it is not done through the government, usually, people will not build roads because everybody will be waiting for someone else to build it. And once some people do get together to build a road, they will try to limit access to that road to only people that paid for its construction. This would causes hundreds of toll booths to go up, and encourage construction of inefficient detours. Contrary to what has been said, road construction would not be more efficient in the free-market because of the lack of Central planning among other things. Lastly, Taxation is not theft for a few reasons. If you're living in a democracy, then you have the ability to change the current rules. The fact is that the majority of people (through their elected officials) decided that taxes were necessary. The majority of people continue to recognize the need for taxes because of the lack of popular support to change the system. Next, no one is forcing people to live in the US, Europe, or any other country. These countries are like one large deed restricted community, if you don't like the regulations, you can choose to live somewhere else. The value of public services that I have received exceeds the amount that I have paid in taxes. I know I'm about to get a swarm of emails saying You are F***ing wrong but oh-well. Khurram Khan --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
