Re: [Edu-sig] Raspberry Pi?
On 29.03.2012, at 17:49, kirby urner wrote: Raspberry Pi doesn't currently run Python but there is some thought that it should. Huh? This is what the FAQ says: http://www.raspberrypi.org/faqs Does it have an official programming language? By default, we’ll be supporting Python as the educational language. Any language which will compile for ARMv6 can be used with the Raspberry Pi, though; so you’re not limited to using Python. - Bert - ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Using try / except: any stipulations against routine use?
On 14.12.2011, at 22:42, Vernon Cole wrote: Sorry, Kirby, I'm afraid I disagree. try: res_dict[ext] += 1 except KeyError: res_dict[ext] = 1 is clear in intent and operation. It is a self-initializing occurrence counter. On the other hand, res_dict[ext] = res_dict.get(ext, 0) + 1 is obscure. Unless I go dig up the documentation of what the .get() operation does on a dictionary, I have no idea what the intention of the code is -- and I am (humbly) a very experienced programmer and Python programmer. Also I doubt whether the one-line version is faster. Without looking at the code, I would bet that .get() is implemented using a try / except structure. There is nothing wrong with that. Remember the Zen of Python: import this ... Readability counts. ... -- Vernon Isn't this at least as readable, and conceptually simpler? if ext in res_dict: res_dict[ext] += 1 else: res_dict[ext] = 1 Not arguing against exceptions in general, but in this case? - Bert - ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
[Edu-sig] [OT] Re: Dreaming in Code by Scott Rosenberg (2007)
On 28.03.2010, at 07:54, kirby urner wrote: I tried introducing FOSS witch on Diversity (python.org) and appeared to get no takers. Hacker, pirate, wizard, geek, dictator... but not witch. Google for haecksen. The German word for witch is Hexe, plural Hexen. The German pronunciation of Haeckse is almost identical to Hexe. It was created as a play on the word Hacker which is masculine in German, the canonical femininum would be Hackerin (i.e., 'hacktress'). But Haeckse is much more playful and creative so this is how some women in the CCC started to call themselves. Also it sounds decidedly unixy, some old-school hackers still insist the plural of unix is unixen and the boxes running them are boxen. Since witch nowadays has a generally positive connotation (not the least because of J.K.Rowling's and other's books) it at least elicits a giggle when telling girls about this. In Germany anyway. - Bert - ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] ACM Urges Obama to Include CS as Core Component of Science, Math Education
On 25.12.2008, at 17:38, Daniel Ajoy wrote: On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 06:00:02 -0500, edu-sig-requ...@python.org wrote: From: Edward Cherlin 2008/12/23 michel paul : http://www.acm.org/press-room/news-releases/obama-education Computing education benefits all students, not just those interested in pursuing computer science or information technology careers, said Bobby Schnabel, chair of ACM's Education Policy Committee (EPC). Thanks. I'll invite them to join Earth Treasury's digital textbook project for the OLPC XO + Sugar. We have Smalltalk, Python, and FORTH standard on the XO, and we can add anything else of interest. Well, not Ada or C++, but those aren't of interest to third graders. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Creating_textbooks I don't think FORTH comes with the XO by default. I've the Mexico and Uruguay images and I haven't seen it. What's the name of it's executable? It's in the firmware, and you need a developer key to access it. Smalltalk only comes if Etoys is installed. Which it is, on every deployment so far. It's also part of Sugar. UCBLogo is Scheme without parethesis (and with dynamic scope, instead of lexical scope) http://wiki.laptop.org/images/e/e5/Ucblogo-4.xo The problem is that is it not sugarized yet. and the LogoFE library for Logo makes is very much like APL. LogoFE is already in Spanish the language spoken in Uruguay, Colombia and Perú, where the XO has had deployments. Right, a nice Logo is the one missing piece of the programming environments officially supported by OLPC: http://laptop.org/en/laptop/software/specs.shtml - Bert - ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] music:piano :: math:laptop ?
Not only math, but a computer can even be seen as an instrument whose music is ideas (*). On 16.12.2008, at 08:16, kirby urner wrote: Edward Cherlin's insistent pointing to the XO is helping turn some wheels on my end... Way cool that Gibson Guitar was a sponsor of OSCON that time, shows how geeks are being seen from a Nashville angle: have laptop will travel, the solo musician model, except we also form bands. Really, so many analogies, between musicians and coders. What calculators, slide rules before 'em, have gotten us used to, is this idea that mathematics comes with devices, gizmos, more than just chalk or pencil. We need machinery! (a slide rule has moving parts, c'mon). What's interesting is how reluctant the marketing groups have been, to link their brands to something so Buck Rogers and futuristic as the XO, or even to the basic idea of giving kids laptops. It has all the elements: breakthrough technologies, hero developers (many genders and ethnicities), adorable children, cool interface... you'd think the cereal companies would be all over it, giving kids something to marvel at while crunching on wholesome grains. How about we start a campaign among tweens and teens called Where's My Laptop? Let's encourage that sense of entitlement we get listening to R0ml, who says gnu math, CP4E, computer literacy (lots of words for it) is what in the old days would be called basic rhetoric. To participate in civic life, you needed to know how to structure an argument, defend a position. Well, you still need those skills, but you also need that laptop. How else do you expect to patch in, participate in the life of democracy. What do we want? Laptop! When do we want it? Now! While I certainly agree, getting laptops to kids is only half the picture, and both the easier and worse half at that. We need to remember, and continue to point out, that the music is not in the piano (*). This is preaching to the choir on this list of course, but the folks seeing a major distraction in computers as typically used by kids have a major point, too. And that distraction is much more seductive than the distraction a lonesome piano provides. So I'd like to see such a campaign explicitly point out what distinguishes the XO from any other laptop, by making a computer specifically for learning rather than for profit, by having it run tinkerable software (yay to Python for that), etc. It's not just the ingenious industrial design, but the ideas it embodies. (*) http://www2.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=5 - Bert - ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation
Am Jan 21, 2007 um 15:25 schrieb Arthur: Paul D. Fernhout wrote: I think making easy and widely available this support for easy debugging into a function and changing it and restarting all in a still running application would be of great value to anyone learning through tinkering with a Python-powered application (like an educational simulation). And it would increase Python programmer productivity when developing medium to large applications probably by a factor of at least 2X or 3X. The interest in Python for the Squeak folks seems only that there is a larger and more dynamic community of folks devoted to its use and continued development. Actually, Squeak folks do fine. They're not flocking to Python, even though Paul (unfortunatly for us) left a few years ago. You may be confusing Alan Kay's reaching out to the Python community with what the Squeak community does. Two very different pairs of shoes. Somehow. The possibility that you should as a consequence transition, while here, to learning mode from teaching mode might, I would think might, occur to you. We all are learners. I actually enjoy reading and learn from many of your posts. Likewise, the possibility that what Paul writes from his experience might actually be something for you to learn. I know it's hard to appreciate the advantages of a fully interactive and reflexive system unless you have actually used one. Paul has. But you are in a community that accepts the rejection of empiricism, so I guess there is some amount of consistency in point-of-view. Repeating this over and over does not actually make it true. People in OLPC have been empirically studying working with kids and computers longer than anyone else. - Bert - ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Edusig auf Deutsch [in German] using Babelfish
It is hilariously funny at times, but pretty much useless, at least for philosophical discourse. - Bert - Am Jan 18, 2007 um 15:37 schrieb Paul D. Fernhout: Bert- Just for fun, here is a link through Babelfish for edusig auf Deutsch: :-) http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent? lp=en_detrurl=http%3a%2f%2fmail.python.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo% 2fedu-sig See for example: [ Edu-Edu-sig ] Slashdot Artikel: Programmieren Zicklein Jedoch? http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent? lp=en_deurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmail.python.org%2Fpipermail%2Fedu-sig% 2F2006-April%2F006308.html Or January's posts: http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent? lp=en_detrurl=http%3a%2f%2fmail.python.org%2fpipermail%2fedu-sig% 2f2007-January%2fthread.html I'd be curious what a native German speaker had to say about the quality or usefulness of these automatic translations of edusig? Useful? Confusing? Useless? --Paul Fernhout Bert Freudenberg wrote: Am Jan 18, 2007 um 6:45 schrieb Paul D. Fernhout: so no matter how cheap you made distributing a diversity of text books or related educational materials, schools would not want any but the standardized ones to be used at the standardized times. The point of conventional schooling was then ansd still is to produce a standard graded product, not amplify differences. As I point out in my previously linked essay Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools http://patapata.sourceforge.net/ WhyEducationalTechnologyHasFailedSchools.html computers linked to the internet have revolutionized just about every area of life today related to information access and education -- except, ironically, schooling. I think there is a reason. Schools are *actively* in the way of everything the better side of the world wide web promises -- diversity, expression, disintermediation, innovation, etc. Hi Paul, I *very* much enjoy reading your thoughts on technology and education. I wish they were in German, to be able to show them to people here ... Do you know any German writer with similar views? - Bert - ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment (Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools)
Thanks Paul, I know of Steiner, we have a son who went to a Waldorf school. We choose a Montessori school for our other kids, which I like much better. Anyway, I was specifically looking for someone both knowledgable in education *and* technology, and writing about the intersection of the two. - Bert - Am Jan 18, 2007 um 15:23 schrieb Paul D. Fernhout: Bert- Thanks for the kind words. Well, I would not agree with everything he has to say, but I would expect the Austrian Rudolf Steiner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Steiner http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Steiner [auf Deutsch] as the originator of the Waldorf education method http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_schools http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf-P%C3%A4dagogik [auf Deutch] might have written much in German? See here: http://www.sab.org.br/steiner/biogr-eng.htm From the English Waldorf link: Waldorf education (also called Steiner education) is based upon the educational philosophy of Rudolf Steiner, and stems from his spiritual/religious philosophy anthroposophy. [1] [2] This sees child development as a process of the child's soul and spirit incarnating into a developing living, physical organism.[3] Waldorf education emphasizes an imaginative and holistic approach to education.[4] Spiritual values are central both to the curriculum [5] and to the training of teachers. [6] [7] [8] [9] Waldorf education is practiced in more than 900 [citation needed]established independent private Waldorf schools located in about sixty different countries, in Waldorf-method government-funded schools, in homeschooling environments; and in special education. Personally I'm not into Waldorf education as a big picture, but I like a lot of the parts, especially their stand against media for young kids. I'd say the same about the Montessori method too (the other big well known alternative). And then of course there is bablefish automatic translator, http://babelfish.altavista.com/ though it is obviously an awkward mechanical translation: http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent? lp=en_deurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.johntaylorgatto.com [That link translates a page on Gatto's site from English to German and continues to translate as you click on links; it breaks sometimes] See also: http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent? lp=en_detrurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.johntaylorgatto.com%2funderground% 2findex.htm http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent? lp=en_detrurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.johntaylorgatto.com%2funderground% 2ftoc1.htm It's really interesting to at least try bablefish; it seems a miracle it works at all; I've used it a couple of times for translating Spanish sites about programming -- it's a funny experience to suddenly have such a site in a different language make (some) sense.. All the best. --Paul Fenrhout Bert Freudenberg wrote: Am Jan 18, 2007 um 6:45 schrieb Paul D. Fernhout: so no matter how cheap you made distributing a diversity of text books or related educational materials, schools would not want any but the standardized ones to be used at the standardized times. The point of conventional schooling was then ansd still is to produce a standard graded product, not amplify differences. As I point out in my previously linked essay Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools http://patapata.sourceforge.net/ WhyEducationalTechnologyHasFailedSchools.html computers linked to the internet have revolutionized just about every area of life today related to information access and education -- except, ironically, schooling. I think there is a reason. Schools are *actively* in the way of everything the better side of the world wide web promises -- diversity, expression, disintermediation, innovation, etc. Hi Paul, I *very* much enjoy reading your thoughts on technology and education. I wish they were in German, to be able to show them to people here ... Do you know any German writer with similar views? - Bert - ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment (Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools)
Am Jan 18, 2007 um 19:39 schrieb Paul D. Fernhout: I guess you have your work cut out for you then to write one. :-) Thanks for the comments on Babelfish. --Paul Fernhout P.S. [... links ...] I'll have a look there. I was actually hoping for a personal recommendation, but if you don't have any, well, thanks anyway :) I know that unschooling or homeschooling is generally not as available in Europe as in the USA, but I also think that alternative schools, like Montessori, Waldorf, or the Sudbury model are perhaps more common (as you yourself discovered already). Personally, I think the Free school model is the most workable compromise given today's society, and if I lived in Europe I would be thinking more about those. I'd even consider it if my family lived nearby one here in the USA. I guess there is something I can thank the USA's social conservative movement for -- homeschooling laws making unschooling possible. :-) Yes, homeschooling is actually illegal in Germany. I can't imagine how much fun it would be to teach Python in such a setting, where if the kids are working with you they are doing it out of genuine interest (even if it might not be long lasting). Those schools tend to expect more parental involvement in the schools, and I know if I sent a child to one, as a parent, I'd want to be offering Python (or Squeak) programming experiences to all the kids there as a volunteer. ... which is indeed exactly what my wife did (with some general assistance from me) in that free Montessori school :) - Bert - ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment
Hi Art, if you are interested in a serious discussion with OLPC, rather than just about OLPC, their open forum might be a better place than Python edu-sig. See http://mailman.laptop.org/mailman/listinfo You might even get a response ;-) - Bert - Am Jan 17, 2007 um 15:15 schrieb Arthur: Hate being the grunch. I hope the OLPC accomplishes everything it sets out to and more. What I suspect is that - having learnt something about complexity and dynamic systems from computers - that the most profound effects of the initiative will be unintended ones. Let's hope they are mostly good. Particularly given this, I don't understand the embedded need, as part of the process, to the compromise on some basic ideas - normally called science. We - on edu-sig - were trying to form some consensus on the need for empiricism around these issues. And in his own way, by my reading of events, my erstwhile friend Kirby was trying to suggest something along these lines during his participation at the Shuttleworth summit. Or - maybe more what he was suggesting - is that until there is empricial evidence that leads us in a certain and clear direction, best encourage the diversity of ideas. OLPC seem to represent very much a counter vision. Seems to me the OLPC has counter ideas on both empiricism *and* the diversity of ideas. Here is Nicholas Negroponte's reaction to the idea of bringing empricism to the party. http://www.olpcnews.com/implementation/plan/ implementation_miracle.html So there will not be consensus, apparently, Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] OLPC (was FYI: PataPata postmortem link)
On Dec 3, 2006, at 20:34 , Winston Wolff wrote: On Nov 29, 2006, at 10:41 AM, Arthur wrote: Over the years, what I have discovered about educational software is that most of it is junk, and the really useful things to connect kids with are the open-ended packages which provide an avenue for their creativity and sense of mastery over aspects of the real or digital world -- so, for example, learning to write with a word processor is much better than playing some silly flash-words game, and using Photoshop or the GIMP is probably much better than using some silly math-blaster game or even the award winning Oregon Trail (which is pretty good as those things go). I definitely have to agree with Arthur on this point. I'm working on some educational software at the moment, but it's really a simple development environment for people learning Python. I.e. an open-ended tool, not a product that teaches. I've been pondering the question of what is good educational software full time for half a dozen years now, and I still don't know how to answer it. I think Paul (quoted by Arthur above) touched a really good point. Most so-called educational (or worse, edutainment) software is stupid to a degree that one might consider harmful. Tools that can be used creatively are much more important. And although programming is creative by definition and should definitely be possible on the OLPC laptop, I think learning to program is not the most important creative activity, there could be a lot more. For example, the ebook- reader is going to be a wiki, allowing to annotate and discuss books. Also, a wiki-like journal is at the core of the user model. Furthermore, Bert's question about why aren't people writing for OLPC right now when it is open software, I might ask the same about my tools, which are freely available with an MIT license at http:// stratotools.python-hosting.com. I'm giving it away for free, why isn't anybody using it? But that's not a fair question. There's so much free stuff out there now, it is really up to the developer to sell their platform. But I presume your question was rhetorical, and for the purpose of selling your platform? Not really, it was an honest question (and it's not my platform anyway, I am simply hacking in one of the OLPC projects). Free stuff being available does not quite suffice, it would have to be brought into a form fitting the target. But that should still be much less effort that writing completely new things. - Bert - ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] OLPC (was FYI: PataPata postmortem link)
On Dec 1, 2006, at 3:23 , Dethe Elza wrote: The main wiki page for OLPC emulation is here: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OS_images_for_emulation Alright. I didn't know about that. I had seen a blog post (maybe yours, can't remember off-hand) that linked to images for VMWare. But the page you link to above has instructions for getting it running under Parallels, so I'll see if I can't get that working. Yes, I added those instructions (/me hugs his mac). But actually, those images are just for trying the official builds. Also, note that there is a bug so currently the images run at 640x480 (http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/504). For developing your own stuff, it's much easier to use sugar- jhbuild on a regular Linux machine (or Parallels install, as I do): http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Sugar If you have any problems getting started, it's best to hop by on IRC, #olpc and #sugar on irc.freenode.net. - Bert - ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
[Edu-sig] OLPC (was FYI: PataPata postmortem link)
On Nov 29, 2006, at 13:00 , Arthur wrote: I fear not only that OLPC is turning into a toy, but a toy for the wrong follks, folks who have enough toys, rooms full of them, lost in their toys, blinking and whizzing hynoptic. Would you agree that the software (and not the greenish toy-like hardware) would make all the difference between that little machine being a toy and it being a serious platform for education? Why, then, are so few folks working on actual educational software for it? So far, you can count the specifically educational activities on the OLPC on one hand. Even if you lost most fingers. - Bert - ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] OLPC (was FYI: PataPata postmortem link)
On Nov 29, 2006, at 14:39 , Arthur wrote: Bert Freudenberg wrote: On Nov 29, 2006, at 13:00 , Arthur wrote: I fear not only that OLPC is turning into a toy, but a toy for the wrong follks, folks who have enough toys, rooms full of them, lost in their toys, blinking and whizzing hynoptic. Would you agree that the software (and not the greenish toy-like hardware) would make all the difference between that little machine being a toy and it being a serious platform for education? Why, then, are so few folks working on actual educational software for it? So far, you can count the specifically educational activities on the OLPC on one hand. Even if you lost most fingers. - Bert - Not sure what are saying. Just checked my facts: Squeak, and Scratch on top of Squeak seemed to be the done deal centerpieces. Squeak (actually, Etoys) is there, and it is indeed the only educational activity I can see at the moment. Which prompted my message - I can imagine a lot of people with different ideas, but why are they so silent? Why don't they create a project on dev.laptop.org and start hacking? You surely would not want to leave the territory to us Etoys folks, would you? Haven't heard of Scratch being on the machine, there certainly is no specific OLPC Scratch activity, yet. You wouldn't be implying - God forbid - that this is not state of the art, best practices, educational software. I was implying that this is edu-sig, and since Python is on the laptop (actually as the major language, which is *not* Squeak), why isn't there anyone else contributing? It's not like OLPC was a closed project. At the current state of affairs you could get *anything* onto it. So are you dismissing the whole idea just because the lauded head honchos are constructionists? Contribute your own! Just that I see these matters as having next to nothing to do with electronics. More than nothing to do with electronics. Granted. Still, you are an electronic mailing list discussing educational topics as applied to an electronic device - the idea does not seem too far-fetched to me. That the Wizards think they can construct this reality electronically is not only absurd, in my view, but an absolute - almost tragic - distraction from more coherent and human to human based efforts toward these espoused ends. Which I might see in the end to have maybe a 4% electronic component. Whatever human-to-human based efforts you (or anyone) are pursuing, by all means, continue. As has been pointed out elsewhere, this is not a zero-sum game. Virtually nobody involved in the OLPC project would instead be going to Brazil and become a teacher. So why not let everyone do what they do best, and enjoy doing? - Bert - ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] OLPC (was FYI: PataPata postmortem link)
On Nov 29, 2006, at 16:06 , Tom Hoffman wrote: On 11/29/06, Bert Freudenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 29, 2006, at 13:00 , Arthur wrote: I fear not only that OLPC is turning into a toy, but a toy for the wrong follks, folks who have enough toys, rooms full of them, lost in their toys, blinking and whizzing hynoptic. Would you agree that the software (and not the greenish toy-like hardware) would make all the difference between that little machine being a toy and it being a serious platform for education? Why, then, are so few folks working on actual educational software for it? So far, you can count the specifically educational activities on the OLPC on one hand. Even if you lost most fingers. I would point out that writing educational software for people who don't have computers isn't very useful either, and that once kids have computers (on a common, free platform) there's a lot more incentive to write educational software for them. Exactly my reasoning - OLPC is going to be a common, free platform, so it should be plenty of incentive. Yet, little is happening. - Bert - ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Talking about Handles
Am 03.10.2006 um 00:47 schrieb kirby urner: This metaphor may be good for references, but not for Python. You are left with the intuition that you can look at the mug and enumerate the handles. Maybe a an object is a living thing with lasers shining on it (referring to it), that may shrivel up and die if it gets no light. -- Scott David Daniels Good caveat. I could keep the mug with many handles metaphor, but then explain only the Garbage Collector really knows when it's time for a mug to meet its maker (i.e. return its piece of Memory to that great Heap in the Sky). A mug to me sounds way too similar to bit bucket. That's how low- level languages (like C++) present variables. Also, it's hard to imagine how to describe, say, a linked list as a chain of mugs. I like to explain objects as balloons, with labeled hooks on its surface as variables. A balloon can have more than one leash, but each hook holds exactly one leash (still looking for a metaphor that naturally has this constraint). Garbage collection then simply occurs when all leashes of an object are removed from the hooks - a whole tangle of objects might float up. The idea extends even to weak references, which is a leash not tied but loosely attached to a hook :) - Bert - ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
