Re: RE: [Elecraft] Elecraft CW Net Report for December 1st, 2008
Phil and Christina wrote: Hi Kevin, The last few times I have checked in were with the K3 at 100 Watts. When I point my quad north I usually can tell that you are in there, but can't always copy much. 73, Phil NS7P Sunday, I couldn't hear Kevin at Z on 20. By 0005Z, he was S-6 and I QNI'd. Isn't cool how we can nounify and verbify Q signals? By 0010Z, he was gone. On 40, I thought I heard Kevin, so I called him, and I thought I heard the suffix of my call. Apparently I made it, but Kevin was ESP. I apologize if I stepped on someone. I REALLY want some sunspots for Christmas! 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2009 Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2009 - www.cqp.org ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: Fw: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW
. I hope to be able to purchase a K3 someday if Elecraft doesn't go belly up first. 73, Steve Brandt N7VS Portland, Oregon Steve, I wouldn't wait that long, you may be too old to enjoy it. :-) 73, Tony W7GO ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 New owner 2B Checklist
Thanks folks, you've offered me some really helpful information. If this was a website forum I'd suggest these ideas be part of a sticky for others would find them most helpful too. Maybe the folks at Elecraft might add a pdf to their info section/FAQ with such helpful pointers for the new members of the group. I loved my Erector sets as a kid then Heathkit now I get to play with a parts kit again only prettier and much mo' better. What fun! Thanks, Gary KA1J ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
You are making the incorrect assumption that we have no control over the upper or lower limits. If band or sky noise is the limiting factor on the low end, then adding attenuation in front of the ADC to adjust for this has the benefit of increasing the high end limit also. This ideally has not changed the dynamic range, but only shifted the upper and lower limits. No, if band noise at -110 dBm is the limiting factor as it often is below 5 MHz, no amount of attenuation is going to allow you to resolve a - 125 dBm signal. Attenuation may help you handle blocking signals, particularly those 20 to 100 KHz away that are eliminated by the narrow filtering in other receiver designs and thus deal with the window overload issues but that's all that moving the IMD range can accomplish. The Perseus or QS1R will easily outperform the K3 in the case of multiple strong signals in discerning a weak signal as you have described. This is WITHOUT AGC in front of the ADC. I do not believe that any wideband SDR can cope with the instantaneous peaks greater than the ADC rail in the limiting condition (a large number of extremely strong, say greater than -10 dBm, within the bandpass filter window.). While the chance of the instantaneous maximum decreases as the number of signals increases, the average signal level continues to increase at an exponential rate. 73, ... Joe, W4TV -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Philip Covington Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 6:12 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net; Bill W4ZV Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 8:38 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Of course, but there is still a finite range between the two limits. The maximum instantaneous peak is driven by the number and strength of incoming signals and the minimum discernable signal level is defined not by processing gain but by sky noise. All the processing gain goes only so far ... the limit is still well above the theoretical ability to detect one signal in the absence of noise. Processing gain may be of value at microwave frequencies with a quiet sky but it is not going to help below 10 MHz with extreme signals and high noise levels. 73, ... Joe, W4TV You are making the incorrect assumption that we have no control over the upper or lower limits. If band or sky noise is the limiting factor on the low end, then adding attenuation in front of the ADC to adjust for this has the benefit of increasing the high end limit also. This ideally has not changed the dynamic range, but only shifted the upper and lower limits. The Perseus or QS1R will easily outperform the K3 in the case of multiple strong signals in discerning a weak signal as you have described. This is WITHOUT AGC in front of the ADC. -- Phil Covington Software Radio Laboratory LLC Columbus, Ohio http://www.srl-llc.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
John Can't help you with numbers, just the experience of friends in that situation, ie they can operate with special receivers having special mixers, often home brew, whereas it is impossible without. David G3UNA David Cutter wrote: Some folk suffer extremely strong QRM from broadcasters on 40m (particularly on the east coast of Scotland) and to them there is a real desire for the best possible gear to hear weak stations amongst huge bc signals from Europe. That's where receivers like the Perseus and others come in to their own. Hi David, Yes I can see your point, and I am certainly not questioning the benefit of High Dynamic range receivers in those situations. I guess what I am having a hard time understanding how it would be possible for any receiver, regardless of the dynamic range of the receiver, to receive a weak signal 2 Khz away from, say a 80db over 9 broadcast or other signal. Would not the IMD, sidebands, and splatter from the broadcast station itself be so severe as to prevent this? Or am I overstating the effects of transmitted phase noise and IMD? As I mentioned in my previous post, there is no way I could see operating 2 Khz away from the very strong signal of my ham neighbor. His transmitted IMD would be way too severe. But I can easily operate 20 Khz or more away with the K3. To me, any minor difference in close in dynamic range between say the Perseus and the K3 is of little or no importance in this situation. I could not receive a weak signal so close to such a strong signal anyhow because of his transmitted IMD. But the wider spaced number's matter a great deal, and that is what concerns me when I see a 117-123db BDR as compared to 140db at wider spacings. 73, John, KD8K ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 8:38 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Of course, but there is still a finite range between the two limits. The maximum instantaneous peak is driven by the number and strength of incoming signals and the minimum discernable signal level is defined not by processing gain but by sky noise. All the processing gain goes only so far ... the limit is still well above the theoretical ability to detect one signal in the absence of noise. Processing gain may be of value at microwave frequencies with a quiet sky but it is not going to help below 10 MHz with extreme signals and high noise levels. 73, ... Joe, W4TV You are making the incorrect assumption that we have no control over the upper or lower limits. If band or sky noise is the limiting factor on the low end, then adding attenuation in front of the ADC to adjust for this has the benefit of increasing the high end limit also. This ideally has not changed the dynamic range, but only shifted the upper and lower limits. The Perseus or QS1R will easily outperform the K3 in the case of multiple strong signals in discerning a weak signal as you have described. This is WITHOUT AGC in front of the ADC. -- Phil Covington Software Radio Laboratory LLC Columbus, Ohio http://www.srl-llc.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Kok Chen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday, December 01, 2008, at 01:16PM, Bill W4ZV [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...which is why the hybrid approach of a narrow roofing filter before the ADC works so well in Orion and the K3. Bill is correct. Think of this this way: the clipping level of a codec does not change, but the noise floor of the processed passband falls. You gain nothing anymore only after the Nyquist rate of the signal of interest has exceeded (think energy density) the decimated sampling rate. 73 Chen, W7AY Chen, You must also realize that placing analog components in front of the ADC introduces non-linearity and distortion. In the case of DSP IF radios like the K3, there is *a lot* of analog components in front of the ADC, each degrading the signal to some extent. There is also the problem of the phase noise of the LO. Even QSD based SDRs which use a DDS for the LO have worse phase noise (and spurs) than the crystal oscillator LO in direct sampling receivers like the Perseus or QS1R. In the DDS, the DAC only approximates an analog signal resulting in spurs, and depending on whether the internal PLL is used in the DDS, added phase noise. In direct sampling receivers such as Perseus or QS1R, the LO is not converted back to an analog signal as in the DDS case - the quality of the LO is then pretty much determined by the quality of the sampling clock (very good) and how many bits you use in your NCO in the FPGA. PLL based LOs (like the K3) have much higher phase noise than this. -- Phil Covington Software Radio Laboratory LLC Columbus, Ohio http://www.srl-llc.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Windows Vista ?
Hi Lenmart, http://webshop.multitech.se/PartDetail.aspx?q=p:358526;pl:1 Simon Brown, HB9DRV www.ham-radio-deluxe.com - Original Message - From: Lennart Michaelsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] (HP does not sell any plug in USB/serial cards whih would have been a natural solution) ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 9:02 PM, Bill W4ZV [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joe Subich, W4TV-3 wrote: Processing gain may be of value at microwave frequencies with a quiet sky but it is not going to help below 10 MHz with extreme signals and high noise levels. Joe, as near as I can tell, you've hit on the primary cause of arguments between intelligent folks like Leif SM5BSZ and Tom W8JI (both were on ARRL's committee to review their Product Test procedures). One is talking weak signal EME, galactic noise and extremely wide interference spacings; the other is talking about weak signal 160 meters, atmospheric noise and relatively close interference spacings (e.g. the ARRL 160 or CQ 160 contests). It may be that both are right for their respective applications, so we may be having a discussion of apples and oranges. Normal HF applications of the K3 are much closer to Tom's world than Leif's world IMHO. I'm still waiting for independent measurements of BDR that show other SDR approaches are near the results of the K3. When I see that, I'll be the first to be a believer. Maybe the Perseus will do this, but I haven't seen the corrected ARRL results yet. When it comes to receiver performance, I'm from Missouri (the Show Me state). 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3---ADAT-ADT-200A-by-HB9CBU-tp1597981p1601915.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com The difference is that while W8JI may be an expert in many other (analog) areas, his disparaging comments made on various mailing lists shows an ignorance in the SDR realm (except maybe for a bad experience with a SDR-1000). It is not much different than Joe-blow using his nifty cell phone while having absolutely no comprehension of how his voice gets from point A to point B. It is hard on the old analog experts when the new digital technology is quickly leaving them behind. Whether Leif's interests lie in weak signal EME or other areas, it does not negate the facts that he presents concerning SDR - those facts apply in Tom's world also. -- Phil Covington Software Radio Laboratory LLC Columbus, Ohio http://www.srl-llc.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
Its dynamic range may be OK for IMD but today's SDRs cannot approach the BDR of rigs like the K3 until even higher resolution ADCs become available. Sorry to tell you a bad new: you are wrong! Nico Phil, When can we expect to see direct R.F.-sampled SDRs with better MDS performance? When we compare MDS data across QST product reviews in a 500 Hz filter B/W, we see marginal figures of ~ -128 dBm @ 14 MHz. This is true of the Perseus, SDR-IQ, and Flex 5000A. By contrast, radios such as the K3 and Orion offer excellent MDS figures approaching -140 dBm while still providing excellent close-spaced blocking and I3 dynamic range. Paul, W9AC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] K3: HC8N in CQWW
they used five (5) K'3. Neat. http://lists.contesting.com/pipermail/3830/2008-December/164648.html de Doug KR2Q ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Windows Vista ?
Lennart SM7BIC wrote on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 at 11:18 AM However it turned out that his recommended converter Keyspan usa-19hs including a serial cable cannot be found in SM and Amazon.com as an example does not export those precious little gems outside NA. Have you tried MacHeaven in the UK [EMAIL PROTECTED] also www.macheaven.co.uk/ MacHeaven is a trading name of AllStuff Limited. I purchased a Keyspan USA-19HS from them in May 2007, in stock at the time. 73, Geoff GM4ESD ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] K3 and Windows Vista ?
The difficulty is obtaining device drivers for Windows Vista 64, not the more common Windows Vista 32. Drivers are available from Microsoft Update for the Prolific chipset USB to Serial adapters (such as the KUSB) for Windows Vista 32. Dick, K6KR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lennart Michaelsson Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 3:18 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] K3 and Windows Vista ? Hi all,I have been using my old PC with Winndows XP ever since I got my K3 last April without any trouble downloading F/W into the K3 using the Prolific USB converter. Now having got a new HP (64bit) with Vista installed I am stuck as Vista does not support the Prolific or vice versa. (HP does not sell any plug in USB/serial cards whih would have been a natural solution) I have asked Elecraft for support and I trust they are working on it. Gary replied promptly with a possible solution. However it turned out that his recommended converter Keyspan usa-19hs including a serial cable cannot be found in SM and Amazon.com as an example does not export those precious little gems outside NA. Question to other EU K3 owners using a PC with Vista installed: How have you solved this matter? Many thanks in advance Lennart SM7BIC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
Nico Palermo, IV3NWV wrote: You are not replying my question, Bill. I've simply asked if you are able to listen to a -105 dBm with a + 7 dBm inteferer placed at a 2 kHz offset with your receiver. You have two choices: 1) No, I can't. 2) Yes. I can. If the reply is #1 you should explain me why if the BDR of your receiver is declared to be 140 dB at 2 kHz spacing and you are not able to do handle a 111 dB signal dynamic range. If the reply is #2 I kindly ask you to provide me the proof and I will apologize with you. BTW, if in a real situation nobody would try to operate 2 kHz apart a strong CW signal, due to the clicks, what the ARRL Blocking Compression Gain test at 2 kHz is meant for? Is it for dummies? Don't you think that questioning the utility of the test while being so proud that your receiver is rated with that figure is a really poor argument? Can you briefly explain why you feel ARRL's definition of BDR below is not correct? ...The blocking dynamic range is the difference between the level of the noise floor from the level of undesired signal that produces a 1 dB decrease in a weak desired signal... I already know the ARRL definition. What weak means? Is it a signal at the MDS level, 20 dB stronger, or 50? Weak is not 1 foot, nor 2 inches/second. It is NaN, not a number. For DXers weak means S 8, for others it is right the MDS, for other it is the level of the least audible CW signal immersed in the noise, say 10 dB less than its power. If weak is meant to be S 8, be sure your receiver has a 140 BDR, as defined by the ARRL, but I kindly let you note that the difference between 10 dBm (the level of the interfering carrier that produce a 1 dB decrease in the weak signal in a receiver which has a sensitivity of -130 dBm) and -79 dBm (the weak S8 signal) is not 140 dB, but just 89 dB. Do the same test with a weak desired signal which is S 4 and let me know if you are able to measure the gain compression of your receiver or if instead you simply you are not, just because the phase noise of the LO is 20 dB higher and has already completely desensitized your equipment. In the case you are not able to do it, why do you claim that your receiver can handle a 140 dB dynamic range if it is not able to handle signal level differences which are much less? ## Nico I believe I finally understand your point. In simple terms, you're saying the K3's phase noise overrides close-spaced IMD and BDR performance. In this case, I completely agree with you, This has been a stumbling point that Rob Sherwood NC0B and Peter Hart G3SJX of RSGB have been making for many years now. Both Peter and Rob have used the term phase noise limited to tell us that phase noise is actually overriding close spaced measurements like IMD. What is truly important is the Spurious-Free Dynamic Range (G3SJX's term) which includes phase noise, BDR and IMD performance. SFDR is the worst case of all 3 factors, and phase noise will clearly override IMD or BDR results at close spacings in the K3. ARRL's relatively recent change in test procedure to use a narrowband spectrum analyzer to measure IMD is masking the actual SFDR result because it's using a narrow band filter to remove the phase noise component when making the measurement. Our brain/ear only has a ~50 Hz filter at best, so we will hear the phase noise in that 50 Hz bandwidth instead of the ~1 Hz (?) BW ARRL's spectrum analyzer uses. What good does it say we have extremely good IMD or BDR at close spacings if that performance is theoretical and does not represent what our ears hear? I agree it is misleading. I believe what you're actually saying is that Perseus has much better close-spaced phase noise than the K3, and ARRL's measurements of close-spaced IMD and BDR are imaginary numbers that do not represent what our ears will actually hear. In that case, I completely agree with you! Would you tell us how Perseus compares in the following phase noise performance? The following table is from a post by Eric WA6HHQ in September 2007. I've added the Flex 5000 based on measurements published after Eric's note: http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/elecraft/2007-September/073931.html Here are transmit composite phase noise numbers from the Lab for the K3. Needless to say, we are pleased with the results. :-) I've also included some numbers from the ARRL reviews for several late model rigs. Rig 1kHz2 10 20 50 100 1M K3 -110 -119 -136 -140 -143 -144 -150 IC7800 -103 -112 -130 -138 -140 -140 -140 FT2000 -102 -105 -128 -129 -128 -128 -128 ORION 2 -121 -129 -126 -125 -118 -128 -138 OMNI 7 -102 -103 -120 -123 -127 -129 -126 F5000 -123 (same at all spacings de W4ZV) Perseus ? What I personally wish is that ARRL should do is go to a metric like SFDR which G3SJX has proposed. I believe this would be the most meaningful. It would show us the worst case of what our ears will hear
[Elecraft] K3 Phase Noise, etc.
Old engineer says, If I can measure it, but not hear, taste, feel or see it, do I care? I.E. my old ears cut off at about 12kHz, so I don't care if my stereo can reproduce tones at 20kHz. I sometimes think we forget the fact that we are limited by our human signal processing systems. A realistic example: Precision pistols shoot far more accurately out of a bench rest than any human will ever shoot with the same pistol. Vy 73, Bob DJ0MBC/WU5T ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Windows Vista ?
Lennart Michaëlsson wrote: Hi all,I have been using my old PC with Winndows XP ever since I got my K3 last April without any trouble downloading F/W into the K3 using the Prolific USB converter. Now having got a new HP (64bit) with Vista installed I am stuck as Vista does not support the Prolific or vice versa. If this is a desktop PC with PCI slots, could you not fit a PCI board with real serial ports on it? A lot of people who bought Vista installed the 32bit version. As you have found, a lot of hardware does not have 64-bit drivers, and there is absolutely no advantage in running the 64-bit version unless you are running applications that need to address huge amounts of memory - typically servers. - Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222. http://www.g4ilo.com/ G4ILO's Shack http://www.ham-directory.com/ Ham Directoryhttp://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html KComm for Elecraft K2 and K3 -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-and-Windows-Vista---tp1603284p1603511.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] K3 and Windows Vista ?
Hi all,I have been using my old PC with Winndows XP ever since I got my K3 last April without any trouble downloading F/W into the K3 using the Prolific USB converter. Now having got a new HP (64bit) with Vista installed I am stuck as Vista does not support the Prolific or vice versa. (HP does not sell any plug in USB/serial cards whih would have been a natural solution) I have asked Elecraft for support and I trust they are working on it. Gary replied promptly with a possible solution. However it turned out that his recommended converter Keyspan usa-19hs including a serial cable cannot be found in SM and Amazon.com as an example does not export those precious little gems outside NA. Question to other EU K3 owners using a PC with Vista installed: How have you solved this matter? Many thanks in advance Lennart SM7BIC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW
Milt, I heard you OK (RST 549) it's just that I was in the 160m SOSB QRP section (the antennas I had all worked very well) and I only managed to work 4 USA stations, K1TTT being one of them nonetheless... no surprise there then. I managed 340 QSOs, 46 countries and 10 zones, 18hrs of operation. As my first serious attempt at CQWW I'm content with my efforts. My antennas pulled in signals from all around the world including China, Caribbean, India a lot of USA stations but running QRP there was little chance of breaking any of the pile-ups going. I mainly sent at 26 wpm. When calling CQ an SN station came in with a rate of CW representing the sound of a machine gun and he was the only one I had to ask again 4 times As said before, and it is my belief too, this is too fast and there is no need for it. To me he wasted his time and mine as he could have moved onto another QSO quicker and I could have work the next one in the queue. He's got nothing to prove sending at the speed of RTTY. 73's Berni G0IDA Milt, N5IA wrote: I also did my first contest with my new K3; the first since operating with the team of K3s at VP6DX. I also used separate RX antennas and the diversity feature. Lots of fun. I also worked 160 SB. BUT Berni, I don't see your callsign in my log. I heard lots of stations and country/zone mults that I didn't work. I need more elements on the TX antenna. Hi, hi!! Still, a somewhat casual outing from the Southwest corner of New Mexico yielded 214 Qs, 57 DX and 21 Zones for a claimed score of 38,064. I'll be looking for all of you in the ARRL 160 this next weekend. Milt, N5IA, XZ0A, and VP6DX - Original Message - From: Berni G0IDA [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 1:57 AM Subject: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW Dear members of the K3, I just wanted to start a thread for those of you who used a K3 in CQWW, to ask of your experiences during the contest using the K3, the set-up you had and to see if we worked other K3 members. -- ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 6:37 AM, Philip Covington [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The difference is that while W8JI may be an expert in many other (analog) areas, his disparaging comments made on various mailing lists shows an ignorance in the SDR realm (except maybe for a bad experience with a SDR-1000). It is not much different than Joe-blow using his nifty cell phone while having absolutely no comprehension of how his voice gets from point A to point B. It is hard on the old analog experts when the new digital technology is quickly leaving them behind. Whether Leif's interests lie in weak signal EME or other areas, it does not negate the facts that he presents concerning SDR - those facts apply in Tom's world also. I suspect you'll find Tom is a very practical performance-oriented engineer. He's probably agnostic about what's inside the box as long as better performance is demonstrated. The problem with the QSD SDRs so far is that better performance has NOT been demonstrated (not to mention IMHO an unfriendly user interface for most contesters...but that's another discussion). Perhaps direct-sampling SDRs will be different, but I believe the jury is still out. Show us via independent measurements that any radio is demonstrably better and I bet Tom will become a believer. 73, Bill W4ZV ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 6:49 AM, Paul Christensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Its dynamic range may be OK for IMD but today's SDRs cannot approach the BDR of rigs like the K3 until even higher resolution ADCs become available. Sorry to tell you a bad new: you are wrong! Nico Phil, When can we expect to see direct R.F.-sampled SDRs with better MDS performance? When we compare MDS data across QST product reviews in a 500 Hz filter B/W, we see marginal figures of ~ -128 dBm @ 14 MHz. This is true of the Perseus, SDR-IQ, and Flex 5000A. By contrast, radios such as the K3 and Orion offer excellent MDS figures approaching -140 dBm while still providing excellent close-spaced blocking and I3 dynamic range. Paul, W9AC Hi Paul, There is no inherent reason why the MDS could not be that low in direct sampling SDRs. It is mainly a matter of design decision/implementation. -- Phil Covington Software Radio Laboratory LLC Columbus, Ohio http://www.srl-llc.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Windows Vista ?
Lennart - I use a 64-bit HP PC with 32-bit Vista Home Premium OS in my shack and it runs the USB-Serial adapter just fine. I have, however, switched to a serial port to minimize noise in the receiver. I am using a PCI Express card that provides 2 ports. These are expensive, but I am pretty sure your HP PC has 2 unused PCI Express slots. Is your Vista OS 64-bit or 32-bit? Monty K2DLJ Now having got a new HP (64bit) with Vista installed I am stuck as Vista does not support the Prolific or vice versa. (HP does not sell any plug in USB/serial cards whih would have been a natural solution) Many thanks in advance Lennart SM7BIC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
Hi Phil, There is no inherent reason why the MDS could not be that low in direct sampling SDRs. It is mainly a matter of design decision/implementation. This may be a stupid (or at least ignorant) question, but if the dynamic range of the ADC itself is defined by the number of bits it resolves and a maximum voltage must never (should never) be exceeded, wouldn't improving MDS by 10 to 15db create major problems with the high end of the scale? I would tend to think that analog solutions could be more forgiving or that the K3 path which provides an AGC to protect the ADC might be (at present) a better way to go. Or are you suggesting using much faster ADCs so that you have a higher level of over sampling, allowing more process gain during decimation? vy 73 de toby ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] Gp back to sleep
now ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
Philip Covington wrote: problem of the phase noise of the LO. Even QSD based SDRs which use a DDS for the LO have worse phase noise (and spurs) than the crystal oscillator LO in direct sampling receivers like the Perseus or QS1R. It seems to me that high speed A/D conversion is much more difficult to do accurately than high speed D/A conversion, so any degradation in converting the LO to analogue is going to be more than compensated for by that in converting a wideband signal to digital. -- David Woolley The Elecraft list is a forum for the discussion of topics related to Elecraft products and more general topics related ham radio List Guidelines http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 8:05 AM, David Woolley (E.L) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Philip Covington wrote: problem of the phase noise of the LO. Even QSD based SDRs which use a DDS for the LO have worse phase noise (and spurs) than the crystal oscillator LO in direct sampling receivers like the Perseus or QS1R. It seems to me that high speed A/D conversion is much more difficult to do accurately than high speed D/A conversion, so any degradation in converting the LO to analogue is going to be more than compensated for by that in converting a wideband signal to digital. -- David Woolley It may seem that way to you, but in real life it turns out the the DDS generates spurs due to only approximating a sin function, clock leakage, number of bits, etc... There is not the same issue in the NCO generated LO in the FPGA in direct sampling receivers such as Perseus and QS1R. -- Phil Covington Software Radio Laboratory LLC Columbus, Ohio http://www.srl-llc.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
Philip Covington wrote: On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 8:05 AM, David Woolley (E.L) It may seem that way to you, but in real life it turns out the the DDS generates spurs due to only approximating a sin function, clock leakage, number of bits, etc... There is not the same issue in the There is no fundamental reason why the the DDS sine function should be any worse than the DSP one, nor for it to have any less bits than that with which the signal is digitised. It might be that commonly used DDS chips are rather old technology, and you are comparing state of the art DSP with ten year old DDS. NCO generated LO in the FPGA in direct sampling receivers such as Perseus and QS1R. -- David Woolley The Elecraft list is a forum for the discussion of topics related to Elecraft products and more general topics related ham radio List Guidelines http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
Bill, the phase noise of Perseus is as follow: Offset (kHz) 25 1020 50 Phase Noise (dBc/Hz) -141 -145 -148 -151 -155 As a picture is worth one thousand words, see here for more: http://microtelecom.it/perseus/tests/Perseus-phasenoise.jpg To make the test, the phase noise of the source generator, a homebrew crystal oscillator, has been neglected and it has been assumed that all the phase noise was due to the receiver oscillator, which is a crystal oscillator too. A more realistic assumption is that the two oscillators, the source generator and the receiver LO, are contributing equally to the phase noise figure and in this case the performance of the receiver would be even 3 dB better. The figures indicated are thus worst case values. For offsets larger than 50 kHz the phase noise performance cannot be really measured as the prevailing source of noise is of thermal origin and the noise induced by the reciprocal mixing is below the receiver thermal noise floor. Now that you can compare the full table, it would be not difficult for you to conclude that even at 1 MHz offset, the blocking dynamic range of Perseus is greater than that of your receiver. 73 Nico Palermo, IV3NWV Would you tell us how Perseus compares in the following phase noise performance? The following table is from a post by Eric WA6HHQ in September 2007. I've added the Flex 5000 based on measurements published after Eric's note: http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/elecraft/2007-September/073931.html Here are transmit composite phase noise numbers from the Lab for the K3. Needless to say, we are pleased with the results. :-) I've also included some numbers from the ARRL reviews for several late model rigs. Rig 1kHz2 10 20 50 100 1M K3 -110 -119 -136 -140 -143 -144 -150 IC7800 -103 -112 -130 -138 -140 -140 -140 FT2000 -102 -105 -128 -129 -128 -128 -128 ORION 2 -121 -129 -126 -125 -118 -128 -138 OMNI 7 -102 -103 -120 -123 -127 -129 -126 F5000 -123 (same at all spacings de W4ZV) Perseus ? ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 10:27 AM, David Woolley (E.L) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Philip Covington wrote: On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 8:05 AM, David Woolley (E.L) It may seem that way to you, but in real life it turns out the the DDS generates spurs due to only approximating a sin function, clock leakage, number of bits, etc... There is not the same issue in the There is no fundamental reason why the the DDS sine function should be any worse than the DSP one, nor for it to have any less bits than that with which the signal is digitised. It might be that commonly used DDS chips are rather old technology, and you are comparing state of the art DSP with ten year old DDS. Not really. While there is no fundamental reason, we have to deal with what hardware DDS chips are available to designers with their 32/48 bit accumulators and their 10/12/14 bit DACs. Even the very latest DDS chips from Analog (ex. AD9910, AD9912), while better than the older DDS chips by far, still have spurs at certain programmed frequencies if using a very good low phase noise 1 GHz clock and if you use the internal PLL to multiply up to the 1 GHz clock rate still have phase noise issues. -- Phil Covington Software Radio Laboratory LLC Columbus, Ohio http://www.srl-llc.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
Nico Palermo wrote: You probably are unaware that an ADC dynamic range in a given bandwidth does not depend just on its ENOB (effective number of bits) but also on the sampling frequency. Surely, in terms of the interfering signal, that bandwidth is something like 30MHz, rather than the 2.8kHz in the K3 type of SDR. -- David Woolley The Elecraft list is a forum for the discussion of topics related to Elecraft products and more general topics related ham radio List Guidelines http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Elecraft CW Net Report for December 1st, 2008
Hi Kevin, The last few times I have checked in were with the K3 at 100 Watts. When I point my quad north I usually can tell that you are in there, but can't always copy much. 73, Phil NS7P -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kevin Rock Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 10:13 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] Elecraft CW Net Report for December 1st, 2008 Good Evening, The bands were not being helpful tonight. On twenty meters I was able to gain a few checkins but they were mostly 'local' (OR, AK, and CA). UA0IT is probably not local :) [In fact Andy is local, he lives in Magadan.] I'll find out when I can use the Internet again. Right now I have no telephone, it has been out since around noon. The last few days it has been intermittent at best but mostly down. Verizon has been promising to replace the equipment further down the mountain for over a year but they are still employing a temporary, used, replacement trailer. The latest news is they will put a cell tower in on the top of the mountain (about 500 yards away). Maybe I will get better service from that. I have never used a cell phone but hope there may be a way to improve my Internet connection from its current 24 kB/second to something a little faster and more reliable. One can only hope. Pat and I grew used to our convenient DSL hookup when we lived in Albuquerque. I did most of my grad work at home because my equipment was better and the Internet connection was faster than what I had in the ECE department. My CS grad work had a separate account and was the fastest on campus. But, then, they were hooked to the fastest parallel computer in the world (at least a few times a year). However, the forty meter net was better and Tom was able to hear me and help me. QSB was rampant so I could not dig a few out which he was able to work. While Tom was NCS I kept hearing CQs on frequency from another three stations. One in Alaska and the other two were in 4 land. They would fade out and Tom would come back. While I was listening prior to the first net twenty meters sounded very good with all the contesters banging away. I did not hear the QSB but, then, there exchanges are much shorter than ours. My first QNI was obviously taking part in said contest because he likes these activities (WS7L). He also happens to be a K3 owner and a fellow VE person. I was surprised to be able to work NS7P directly. Normally he is out of my ground wave and much too close for skip. Tonight I could hear him on both bands fairly well but a little better on twenty. Once again KL7CW, Rick in Palmer, Alaska had the best signal. Seems odd that an Alaskan station running QRP power levels would hit Oregon so well but there seems to be some sort of duct which assists his signal. There are other AK stations I hear regularly which are quite strong. Propagation still seems like magic to me; I can never quite tell what is going to happen until I start calling. On to the lists = On 14050 kHz at z: WS7L - Carl - OR - K3 - 486 QNI #5! KL7CW - Rick - AK - KX1 - 798 UA0IT - Andy - Magadan - RU K6DGW - Fred - CA - K3 - 642 NS7P - Phil - OR - K3 - 1826 On 7045 kHz at 0300z: N0SS - Tom - MO - K3 - 008 ** QNI #290 ** W3TMZ - Jack - FL - K3 - 1169 AB9V - Mike - IN - K3 - 398 K6DGW - Fred - CA - K3 - 642 W4SEC - Pete - FL - K2 - 5813 W6ZH - Pete - CA - K3 - 657 NS7P - Phil - OR - K3 - 1826 QNI #10!! W0CZ - Ken - ND - K3 - 457 W0JFR - John - CO - K3 - 994 WB5BKL - Nick - TX - K3 - 231 K7SJ - Roger - WA - K3 - 75 W0NTA - Dick - CO - K3 - 1208 N0AR - Scott - MN - K2 - 4866 W1BPJ - Terry - CO - K1 - 1800 KL7IDA - Bill - AK I hope there are no errors in the above lists but memory fades with time and I may have missed a relay during the 'interesting' propagation we were having last night ;) If there are any corrections or fills necessary please email them to me. We are due for a solar stream on the 3rd which after its initial interference should perk things up a little. But propagation is an odd thing; one can never foretell its effects. I am sorry for the delay in getting this report posted but between phone problems and working and chores it did get pushed back a little. Until next week stay warm and stay well, 73, Kevin. KD5ONS (Net Control Operator 5th Class) - ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub,
[Elecraft] [K3] AGC THR and noise
I'm somewhat puzzled by the behavior of the AGC THR adjustment with respect to band noise. My understanding is that the AGC THR setting adjusts the level at which the AGC is activated. Thus, I would expect when listening to band noise (QRN) that if the noise is activating the AGC, using a higher number would prevent AGC activation, resulting in a lower background band noise. But, my experience with the K3 is just the opposite. When adjusting the AGC THR setting I get lower background band noise with a lower setting -- as a matter of fact, a setting of 2 (the lowest AGC THR) signficantly reduces the background noise relative to higher settings. Can someone explain this to me? Steve N9SZ K3 #1672 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
Rig 1kHz2 10 20 50 100 1M K3 -110 -119 -136 -140 -143 -144 -150 IC7800 -103 -112 -130 -138 -140 -140 -140 FT2000 -102 -105 -128 -129 -128 -128 -128 ORION 2 -121 -129 -126 -125 -118 -128 -138 OMNI 7 -102 -103 -120 -123 -127 -129 -126 F5000 -123 (same at all spacings de W4ZV) Perseus ? Apologies for being a stickler on the details, but I see no units of measure above -- and moreover, QST has failed to show units of measure on the vertical scale of their product review graphs. Does this mean that the Flex 5000's phase noise power is -123 dBm referenced to some noise B/W and thus -144 dBc/Hz (i.e., -123 dB + (-21 dB))? Or, is it -123 dBc/Hz? Paul, W9AC___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] K3 arrived - ordered 10/14
Had a blast building the new K3 last night! What a GREAT kit!! The only glitch I ran into was the KXV3 components came with a second copy of the KPA3 manual?? Took me about 10 minutes to realize it was the wrong document. Hey, it was late! Downloaded the correct one from the Elecraft site and kept on going. I called it a night after the first power up test produced no smoke. :) Some pictures here: http://ka7ark.com/HAM/20081201K3Build/pics.html Adam - ka7ark ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [K3] [Elecraft] AGC THR and noise
Steven.Zabarnick wrote: I'm somewhat puzzled by the behavior of the AGC THR adjustment with respect to band noise. My understanding is that the AGC THR setting adjusts the level at which the AGC is activated. Thus, I would expect when listening to band noise (QRN) that if the noise is activating the AGC, using a higher number would prevent AGC activation, resulting in a lower background band noise. A higher number means that AGC compression begins at a higher signal level, so a higher number means you'll hear more noise. take a look at the graphs at http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm#AGC_SLP_and_AGC_THR 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/AGC-THR-and-noise-tp1604346p1604744.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [K3] [Elecraft] AGC THR and noise
Barry N1EU wrote: Steven.Zabarnick wrote: I'm somewhat puzzled by the behavior of the AGC THR adjustment with respect to band noise. My understanding is that the AGC THR setting adjusts the level at which the AGC is activated. Thus, I would expect when listening to band noise (QRN) that if the noise is activating the AGC, using a higher number would prevent AGC activation, resulting in a lower background band noise. A higher number means that AGC compression begins at a higher signal level, so a higher number means you'll hear more noise. Expressed in another way: ALL signals, including noise, -115dBm will be louder as you increase threshold from 2 to 8. 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/AGC-THR-and-noise-tp1604346p1604768.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AGC THR and noise
Steve, Yes, I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but if you establish the right frame of mind, it does become clear. You might want to consider that the audio level from the K3 is what is heard after the AGC is applied. If you set the threshold so low that the band noise activates the AGC, then the noise will reduce the gain of the radio. The point where the noise increases can be an indication that the AGC threshold is now set above the band noise - of course you would do that check in an area where there are no signals present. 73, Don W3FPR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm somewhat puzzled by the behavior of the AGC THR adjustment with respect to band noise. My understanding is that the AGC THR setting adjusts the level at which the AGC is activated. Thus, I would expect when listening to band noise (QRN) that if the noise is activating the AGC, using a higher number would prevent AGC activation, resulting in a lower background band noise. But, my experience with the K3 is just the opposite. When adjusting the AGC THR setting I get lower background band noise with a lower setting -- as a matter of fact, a setting of 2 (the lowest AGC THR) signficantly reduces the background noise relative to higher settings. Can someone explain this to me? Steve N9SZ K3 #1672 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.12/1824 - Release Date: 12/2/2008 9:31 AM ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] Re: Help with distorted transmit audio
Jack's measurements of the K3 AGC on the link listed below are quite interesting. As my noise level on the low bands is usually at least S3 or 4, his plots indicate that the noise (S3 is approx -90 dBm) is either in the linear range of the AGC, or just barely in the software AGC range. Don't we really want the band noise in the flat part of the AGC curve, down near -130 dBm? Would operating with the ATT on and/or the RF gain turned down help move the band noise to this part of the curve, resulting in a higher S/N ratio for signals just above the background noise? Steve N9SZ Barry N1EU wrote: Steven.Zabarnick wrote: I'm somewhat puzzled by the behavior of the AGC THR adjustment with respect to band noise. My understanding is that the AGC THR setting adjusts the level at which the AGC is activated. Thus, I would expect when listening to band noise (QRN) that if the noise is activating the AGC, using a higher number would prevent AGC activation, resulting in a lower background band noise. A higher number means that AGC compression begins at a higher signal level, so a higher number means you'll hear more noise. take a look at the graphs at http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm#AGC_SLP_and_AGC_THR 73, Barry N1EU ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] Re:[K3] AGC THR and noise
Oops, mistakenly sent this with the wrong subject line. Jack's measurements of the K3 AGC on the link listed below are quite interesting. As my noise level on the low bands is usually at least S3 or 4, his plots indicate that the noise (S3 is approx -90 dBm) is either in the linear range of the AGC, or just barely in the software AGC range. Don't we really want the band noise in the flat part of the AGC curve, down near -130 dBm? Would operating with the ATT on and/or the RF gain turned down help move the band noise to this part of the curve, resulting in a higher S/N ratio for signals just above the background noise? Steve N9SZ Barry N1EU wrote: Steven.Zabarnick wrote: I'm somewhat puzzled by the behavior of the AGC THR adjustment with respect to band noise. My understanding is that the AGC THR setting adjusts the level at which the AGC is activated. Thus, I would expect when listening to band noise (QRN) that if the noise is activating the AGC, using a higher number would prevent AGC activation, resulting in a lower background band noise. A higher number means that AGC compression begins at a higher signal level, so a higher number means you'll hear more noise. take a look at the graphs at http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm#AGC_SLP_and_AGC_THR 73, Barry N1EU. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
Hi Guy's Thanks for the interesting discussion on the state of the art in SDR technology. This discussion does raise a few questions in my mind that I would like to ask. To me it is a question of the theoretical as opposed to the practical. Does it really matter if a receiver can hold up to a 80db over 9 signal 2 Khz away or is this just a theoretical exercise? Would not the transmitted Phase Noise, IMD, and perhaps key clicks be the limiting factor or am I wrong about this? Is there is a point of no return where increased close in dynamic range no long matters because modern transmitters simply can not or do not transmit a signal that clean. If so, then has the K3 and the Perseus reached that point of no return and the question of which one has a better close in dynamic range is more of a theoretical then a practical exercise. I would think that with very strong signals (like 80 db over 9), the more important number from a practical point of view would be at wider spacings, as I would want to know if the receiver would hold up when I move away from the phase noise and IMD of the transmitted signal. I have a neighbor ham that I receive a very strong signal from. It would be impossible to operate 2 Khz from him regardless of receiver performance, but I do operate on CW while he is on SSB on the same band using the K3 and I do not hear a thing. In my case, wide spacing performance is important to me, and is a concern that I have when considering purchasing a Windows based SDR. When I see wide spaced numbers of 117-123, compared to the 140db plus of the K3, I feel that the wider spaced number are the more critical numbers to look at, or am I wrong about that? 73, John, KD8K ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 New owner 2B Checklist
To my initial question: I'm ordering the K3 100W kit and have a K9AY receiving antenna and will be using a Titan 425 amplifier with it. I have several power supplies I can use with one being the larger Heathkit 13.8 supply which works fine with my TenTec gear. I also have a TenTec power supply which matches with my Omni V. Are there any caveats or unexpected boondoggles I can expect to run into that I might get ready to resolve before it arrives? Jim K9YC was most helpful with my question on using the Titan 425 with the K3: I have three 425s, and have used them in contesting for years using this arrangement, which was a way of doing QSK with virtually any rig (the 425 was designed before 1980). You do NOT need to do this with the K3 -- the K3 has a built in TX delay (adjustable in CONFIG) so that the TX/RX relay in the amp has time to switch. So simply set the 425 in PTT mode and feed it the amp keying line from the K3. I'm conservative, so I set the delay for 12ms to give the relay plenty of time to switch. The default is 8ms. - And Mike AC5P offered the same kind of good suggestion: Gary, The one thing different about the K3 is the DC power input connector. This is an Anderson 30A Power Pole connector. I don´t know of any other ham gear that uses this type of connector. IMHO, it is superior to the Molex type plug/jacks that the others supply. They supply one (and one only) connector and 6 ft of #12 DC zip cord. Most hams don´t have the special crimp tool, so you will have to solder the pins correctly positioned THE FIRST TIME to make it up. - As to the Amp, I'll be sure to read up on how to find the delay in config. Last time I modified anything with config was back with windoze 95 :) I'm sure that config / setup will be something I will be using a fair amount at first probably when I update and the like. As to the Power Pole connector, this will be my introduction to them, never seen one before. Thus far I've been a dinosaur when it comes to new ham gear my newest anything is 20 years old till now with the exception of my K9AY sold by Array and my Ameritron coax switch. Wait, I do have a butternut I use for 40 up that was made in the mid 90's... :} Any other suggestions regarding a heads up perhaps regarding specialty assembly/test equipment I will need to be ready for the k3 100W kit? Thanks for the help! 73, Gary KA1J ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 New owner 2B Checklist
You should also consider the Heil Goldline mic for it. That is if you operate phone. 73, matt zilmer On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 14:34:15 -0500, you wrote: To my initial question: I'm ordering the K3 100W kit and have a K9AY receiving antenna and will be using a Titan 425 amplifier with it. I have several power supplies I can use with one being the larger Heathkit 13.8 supply which works fine with my TenTec gear. I also have a TenTec power supply which matches with my Omni V. Are there any caveats or unexpected boondoggles I can expect to run into that I might get ready to resolve before it arrives? Jim K9YC was most helpful with my question on using the Titan 425 with the K3: I have three 425s, and have used them in contesting for years using this arrangement, which was a way of doing QSK with virtually any rig (the 425 was designed before 1980). You do NOT need to do this with the K3 -- the K3 has a built in TX delay (adjustable in CONFIG) so that the TX/RX relay in the amp has time to switch. So simply set the 425 in PTT mode and feed it the amp keying line from the K3. I'm conservative, so I set the delay for 12ms to give the relay plenty of time to switch. The default is 8ms. - And Mike AC5P offered the same kind of good suggestion: Gary, The one thing different about the K3 is the DC power input connector. This is an Anderson 30A Power Pole connector. I don´t know of any other ham gear that uses this type of connector. IMHO, it is superior to the Molex type plug/jacks that the others supply. They supply one (and one only) connector and 6 ft of #12 DC zip cord. Most hams don´t have the special crimp tool, so you will have to solder the pins correctly positioned THE FIRST TIME to make it up. - As to the Amp, I'll be sure to read up on how to find the delay in config. Last time I modified anything with config was back with windoze 95 :) I'm sure that config / setup will be something I will be using a fair amount at first probably when I update and the like. As to the Power Pole connector, this will be my introduction to them, never seen one before. Thus far I've been a dinosaur when it comes to new ham gear my newest anything is 20 years old till now with the exception of my K9AY sold by Array and my Ameritron coax switch. Wait, I do have a butternut I use for 40 up that was made in the mid 90's... :} Any other suggestions regarding a heads up perhaps regarding specialty assembly/test equipment I will need to be ready for the k3 100W kit? Thanks for the help! 73, Gary KA1J ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 New owner 2B Checklist
I so rarely use phone, really enjoy the challenge of CW. Did use a mic last weekend to ask a question of non contesting hams to check my signal quality as someone said I was sending out clicks all over the band. (Turns out the signal was clean it was just a lid pestering me). I do have a Heil HM-5 I bought back in the 80s and it is wired for the TenTec 4 pin. 73, Gary KA1J You should also consider the Heil Goldline mic for it. That is if you operate phone. 73, matt zilmer On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 14:34:15 -0500, you wrote: To my initial question: I'm ordering the K3 100W kit and have a K9AY receiving antenna and will be using a Titan 425 amplifier with it. I have several power supplies I can use with one being the larger Heathkit 13.8 supply which works fine with my TenTec gear. I also have a TenTec power supply which matches with my Omni V. Are there any caveats or unexpected boondoggles I can expect to run into that I might get ready to resolve before it arrives? Jim K9YC was most helpful with my question on using the Titan 425 with the K3: I have three 425s, and have used them in contesting for years using this arrangement, which was a way of doing QSK with virtually any rig (the 425 was designed before 1980). You do NOT need to do this with the K3 -- the K3 has a built in TX delay (adjustable in CONFIG) so that the TX/RX relay in the amp has time to switch. So simply set the 425 in PTT mode and feed it the amp keying line from the K3. I'm conservative, so I set the delay for 12ms to give the relay plenty of time to switch. The default is 8ms. - And Mike AC5P offered the same kind of good suggestion: Gary, The one thing different about the K3 is the DC power input connector. This is an Anderson 30A Power Pole connector. I don´t know of any other ham gear that uses this type of connector. IMHO, it is superior to the Molex type plug/jacks that the others supply. They supply one (and one only) connector and 6 ft of #12 DC zip cord. Most hams don´t have the special crimp tool, so you will have to solder the pins correctly positioned THE FIRST TIME to make it up. - As to the Amp, I'll be sure to read up on how to find the delay in config. Last time I modified anything with config was back with windoze 95 :) I'm sure that config / setup will be something I will be using a fair amount at first probably when I update and the like. As to the Power Pole connector, this will be my introduction to them, never seen one before. Thus far I've been a dinosaur when it comes to new ham gear my newest anything is 20 years old till now with the exception of my K9AY sold by Array and my Ameritron coax switch. Wait, I do have a butternut I use for 40 up that was made in the mid 90's... :} Any other suggestions regarding a heads up perhaps regarding specialty assembly/test equipment I will need to be ready for the k3 100W kit? Thanks for the help! 73, Gary KA1J ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] RE: [NCCC] N6RO - CQWWCW- 160m; DIVERSITY with K3
At 05:37 PM 11/30/2008, N6BV wrote: So, how was diversity on the K3? I'll bet lots of folks would like to know! Worked great, Dean. Last week, with help from K6IAM, Software version 2.67 was loaded into my K3s. This enabled two features that made DIVERSITY a joy to use: 1. One push hold keystroke to enable Diversity mode (no menu work needed) - locks both receivers to same freq., connects subRX to the AUX input (beverage). 2. Config menu selection to make the main RX AF gain the volume control, and SUB AF gain a balance or fader between the two receivers. My hand was on that 'balance' knob on most QSOs to optimize the perceived S/N. Probably would have missed a few weak EUs or JAs without Diversity. This feature would be useful on any band where you have two antennas, for me it's a must for 160m. RO ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: Help with distorted transmit audio
Steve, If you attempt to use AGC to change the noise level, you will also be potentially pushing all the signals down to that level as well (how much so depends on the amount of AGC slope you have dialed in. A receiver's sensitivity is measured at the antenna input end, and if I understand correctly. what you are proposing can only change the level at the output (speaker or headphones). The receiver sensitivity can be related to its internal noise level (for any given gain, more internal noise reduces the sensitivity at the input) - and that is a very different thing than band noise. The amount of noise picked up by the antenna and fed to the receiver is effectively 'just another signal'. If the band noise is a -90 dBm, one would ideally want the AGC threshold to be at something above that - say -85 dBm for best reception (no matter what the meters are indicating). Set that way, signals will activate the AGC and not the noise - the human ear/brain can perceive signals down to (and below) the noise floor with a little practice. With band noise at -90 dBm, the K3 receiver sensitivity is still -140 dBm, but the band noise covers up actual signals until their level is greater than -90 dBm, no receiver can change that situation. If band noise activates the AGC, the receiver will not hear as well because the AGC has reduced its gain. Band noise is just another 'signal', but unlike real signals it is broadband and unwanted. 73, Don W3FPR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jack's measurements of the K3 AGC on the link listed below are quite interesting. As my noise level on the low bands is usually at least S3 or 4, his plots indicate that the noise (S3 is approx -90 dBm) is either in the linear range of the AGC, or just barely in the software AGC range. Don't we really want the band noise in the flat part of the AGC curve, down near -130 dBm? Would operating with the ATT on and/or the RF gain turned down help move the band noise to this part of the curve, resulting in a higher S/N ratio for signals just above the background noise? Steve N9SZ ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] K3 New owner 2B Checklist
Gary, KA1J, wrote: Any other suggestions regarding a heads up perhaps regarding specialty assembly/test equipment I will need to be ready for the k3 100W kit? The most helpful tool for me was a nice tweezers to pick up all those little lockwashers. As far as test equipment goes, a standard DMM is helpful. All the calibration and alignement is either done at the factory or performed by initiating pre-programmed routines in the K3 itself. I especially appreciate the dial calibration procedure, using WWV as a reference to get the reading within 1-2 Hz. It's so easy, I check it from time to time. Have fun! 73 de Chuck NI0C K3/100 s/1061 K2/10 s/n 5853 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW
On 1 dec 2008, at 19.12, Jim Brown wrote: Interesting propagation from several locations on 20M caused very strong echoes that ran characters together to the point that I couldn't copy them at all. One example was about 1800Z Sunday for signals from anywhere NE USA and eastern Canada (that is, W1, W2, W3, VE1, VE2, VE3). Around 2200Z I was hearing it on a few JA stations. I'm about 70 miles S of San Francisco and use wire dipoles, so I don't have directivity to protect me from secondary arrivals. I also had this happening to me, with EU stations coming back several paths. The was one PA (I believe) that I just gave up on, his code just melted together to one steady carrier. On 80 meter I had a nice run Sunday night squeezed between two stations where the variable filtering came in handy. First I was a little annoyed when a station sneaked up very close on me starting a run, but after some filter tweaking I felt pretty good with my tight spot on the band. Overall it was a fun weekend with the K3! My claimed score is here; http://lists.contesting.com/pipermail/3830/2008-December/164538.html 73 de Björn, SM0MDG SE0X ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
John KD8K wrote: . This discussion does raise a few questions in my mind that I would like to ask. To me it is a question of the theoretical as opposed to the practical. Does it really matter if a receiver can hold up to a 80db over 9 signal 2 KHz away or is this just a theoretical exercise? Would not the transmitted Phase Noise, IMD, and perhaps key clicks be the limiting factor or am I wrong about this? Is there is a point of no return where increased close in dynamic range no long matters because modern transmitters simply can not or do not transmit a signal that clean. If so, then has the K3 and the Perseus reached that point of no return and the question of which one has a better close in dynamic range is more of a theoretical then a practical exercise. --- Good points to consider, *especially* realizing that the transmitter you're hearing might have been built anywhere from 1930 onward. There's lots of old gear in use out there, and there are a lot of homebrewers learning hands-on engineering building their own stuff with little or no equipment to do this sort of critical analysis. It's all perfectly legal and proper to use on the Ham bands - even encouraged. I doubt if many 1950 Viking I, Elmac, BW, Hallicrafters or similar vintage transmitters are found in contests these days. So the concern expressed is really by the hard-core highly-competitive contesters working in extreme conditions most of us will never experience. For others it's the fun of the chase toward ever and ever better performance as an end in itself, whether or not it has any practical application on the air. Those, too, are perfectly legal and proper pursuits - even encouraged. For the rest of Hamdom, these specifications are rather unimportant. Ron AC7AC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] K3 New owner 2B Checklist
For building the K3/100, there's a complete list of essentials in the assembly manual. Look under Tools and Test Equipment Required. The manual is available on the Elecraft web site. Ron AC7AC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] K3 New owner 2B Checklist
On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:14:25 -0800, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: For building the K3/100, there's a complete list of essentials in the assembly manual. Having built two K3s and added a KRX3, my list of essentials is pretty short. It's hard to imagine a ham needing to buy anything, except maybe the nut starter (if you can still find one). 1 - Medium small Phillips screwdriver with magnetic tip (the magnetic tip is BEYOND essential! 1 - Medium size needlenose pliers 1 - Medium small flat blade screwdriver (to pry things apart) 1 - Ruler to measure the length of hardware so that you know you have the right parts 1 - Really well-lit work area (so you can see how some nearly buried connectors mate together) 1 - Anti-static environment 1 - Big box/barrel to throw packaging in as you empty it 1 - Pen or pencil to check off steps 1 - VOM, digital or otherwise, with a decent Ohms scale (for a couple of voltage and resistance checks) Some things that are very helpful: 1 - Nut holder/starter (one of those 6-inch long soft plastic things with a soft end that a nut can be pushed into to start it in tight places) You'll also need a means of soldering the Anderson Power Pole connectors to the ends of the supplied zip cord. BUT: WHEN ARE RF ENGINEERS GOING TO LEARN THAT ZIP CORD IS VERY SUSCEPTIBLE TO RFI? These cables should be twisted pairs! That's all I needed. 73, Jim K9YC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] K2 dial alignment SOLVED!!
Last year, I upgraded my K2 from rev A to Rev B. Afterwards the dial was off by 12 KHz at 10MHz, even after setting the 4Mhz crystal, doing CAL PLL, CAL FIL more than 30 times. Yes, I followed every procedure posted and verified the 4 MHz clock accurately. Prior to the upgrade, the dial was right on. It turns out that the VCO max frequency must be at least 12096 khz or the dial calibration will be off. This should be in the FAQ, along with how to fix it in the upgrade instructions. After making the rev A to B mod, the VCO range was 12084.87 to 19094.44 creating the 12Khz dial error - no matter how many alignments attempted. Finally I just tried experimenting with the VCO. I put in another crystal in parallel with X1 (that came with the BFO upgrade) in X2. The VCO range was 12081.52 to 12098.17 which fixed the dial error, but the VCO was too wide at 17.19 Khz. I swapped out the 12uH inductor (L31) with the old 10uH inductor and got a VCO range of 12084.87 to 12094.44 - dial calibration was way off (Yes, CAL PLL and CAL FIL were run after each of these changes). Then I removed the second crystal at X2 that I had temporarly installed two steps above. VCO range now 12090.70 to 12097.63 - BINGO - the dial is dead on!!! The VCO is a little narrow at 6.93 Khz, but I have no plans to use 160 meters - so this should be ok. So the solution was to go back to the 10uH inductor. I have spent several weekends and nights trying to figure out this problem. While I have learned a lot doing this, please put this in a FAQ somewhere and save someone else the trouble. Paul AD5IW On Sun, 2 Dec 2007, paul wrote: Hi, Recently I started to upgrade my K2 (sn 2592) with the KPA100 kit. Before I could complete the KPA100 though, I had to upgrade the K2 from rev A to rev B. I have completed all the revs except for the firmware upgrade - Elecraft sent only the MCU but not the IOC. It is now being mailed. Before the rev, the frequency on the dial matched the received frequency. Now WWV is received on 10.012 MHz. I have done the calibration of the 4MHz several times - checking with a known good receiver (AOR AR7030+). I can vary the c22 and zero beat exactly on frequency (USB and LSB) - also at higher harmonics (16Mhz). I ran an antenna wire next to the 4MHz xtal and listen on the SW receiver. After the 4MHz calibration, I have run the CAL PLL and then modified every CAL FIL entry afterwards. Still no change. The dial reads 7.010Mhz when hearing 7MHZ and 14.020Mhz when hearing 14Mhz. Otherwise, the receiver is excellent - much better than before. Had a low volume problem before, now it is really loud. Did all the RF and contol board changes, BFO temp stability mod, PLL upgrade, AF gain smoothness, VFO ALC 10/12 meter band pass filter, AGC threshold (R1 from 51k to 22.5k). I have checked for bad solder joints or bridges - nothing wrong that I can see. I did not do the second crystal filer flatness mod or the sidetone mod yet. Also no firmware had been changed yet. Any ideas what to check? Thanks, Paul AD5IW Here are some measurements when receiving 10MHz WWV: TP1 14913.05 TP2 4913.19 TP3 12089.38 Dial: 10011.99 ---Range measurements PLL min: 12083.69 max: 12094.29 range: 10.60 TP1 min: 14906.04 max: 14919.09 range: 13.05 BFO min: 4916.99 max: 4912.59 range: 4.40 R30: 4.34V 10MHz 5.70V @ 4MHZ 2.02V @ 3.5Mhz ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
Some folk suffer extremely strong QRM from broadcasters on 40m (particularly on the east coast of Scotland) and to them there is a real desire for the best possible gear to hear weak stations amongst huge bc signals from Europe. That's where receivers like the Perseus and others come in to their own. David G3UNA - Original Message - From: Ron D'Eau Claire [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 10:14 PM Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU John KD8K wrote: . This discussion does raise a few questions in my mind that I would like to ask. To me it is a question of the theoretical as opposed to the practical. Does it really matter if a receiver can hold up to a 80db over 9 signal 2 KHz away or is this just a theoretical exercise? Would not the transmitted Phase Noise, IMD, and perhaps key clicks be the limiting factor or am I wrong about this? Is there is a point of no return where increased close in dynamic range no long matters because modern transmitters simply can not or do not transmit a signal that clean. If so, then has the K3 and the Perseus reached that point of no return and the question of which one has a better close in dynamic range is more of a theoretical then a practical exercise. --- Good points to consider, *especially* realizing that the transmitter you're hearing might have been built anywhere from 1930 onward. There's lots of old gear in use out there, and there are a lot of homebrewers learning hands-on engineering building their own stuff with little or no equipment to do this sort of critical analysis. It's all perfectly legal and proper to use on the Ham bands - even encouraged. I doubt if many 1950 Viking I, Elmac, BW, Hallicrafters or similar vintage transmitters are found in contests these days. So the concern expressed is really by the hard-core highly-competitive contesters working in extreme conditions most of us will never experience. For others it's the fun of the chase toward ever and ever better performance as an end in itself, whether or not it has any practical application on the air. Those, too, are perfectly legal and proper pursuits - even encouraged. For the rest of Hamdom, these specifications are rather unimportant. Ron AC7AC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW
Bill and All, I'm not an ardent contester, so this is a serious question--not a criticism. I did jump in this year on a very erratic basis, which only yielded about 110 Q's. But I'm curious--how does ENN AU convert to 599 21? More specifically, the E and the AU part? I know it is getting to be pretty standard to use N for 9, and T for 0. That happens all the time in regular QSO's. I even started getting used to the use of A for 1 during the contest--lots of South America stations doing that. But the shorthand I question above is new to me. Probably it has been in use for a long time, but I sure didn't know it. I suspect a lot of others didn't either. That has to add to the confusion, and cause otherwise unnecessary requests for repeats. And the use of A for 1 by some ops, and for 2 by others, makes no sense. Seems to me if shorthand is to be used it should follow some generally accepted standard. Anyway, as one of the leading check-out stand tabloids says, Inquiring minds want to know! Dave W7AQK - Original Message - From: Bill W4ZV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 10:44 AM Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW If you were answered 4L0A at 15-18 WPM, he would have completed 2 QSOs by the time you finished signing your call twice! And you would have been QRMing everyone else in the process. He was sending at 32-34 WPM and his canned exchange sped up to ~50 WPM (i.e. ENN AU for 599 21). And this was on 160 meters no less! 73, Bill W4ZV ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] 5 pole vs. 8 pole filters
After operating a few contests with my K3, I think I may need to upgrade roofing filters, especially on SSB. I have the stock 2.7 and the 5 pole 500Hz CW installed now. Can anyone comment on the real world contest performance of the 8 pole vs. the 5 pole filters? On SSB with the width dialed in to 1.8-2.0 Khz, I have stations at S9 and above that are easily copyable at over 4 Khz wide which makes it tough on a crowded phone band. I'm told that the Inrad supplies the filters to Elecraft, so is there really only one filter source? Thanks, Will ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Perseus SDR as a 2nd RX
- Original Message - Toby Deinhardt wrote: I hope you don't mind my being at slightly sceptical that a low pass filter is enough for serious LW/MW work. If one has a medium wave or long wave broadcast stations in the vicinity, then additional filtering will almost surely be needed. Hi Toby, My statement was meant as a general reply regarding the filtering on the front end of the Perseus in view of the fact that the original post was referring to erroneous Blocking Dynamic Range numbers and stating that additional filtering would be required. Since I knew for weeks that the figures that were published were not correct, I was merely pointing out that the Perseus does contain excellent preselector filters. I have been monitoring the Perseus reflector for approximately 8 months and the Perseus has become the receiver of choice for serious LW/MW listeners. I have not seen one comment regarding additional filtering being required in any situation. Believe me, the LW/MW DX'ers are just as passionate about their hobby as we are about Ham Radio. With the Perseus's ability to display in real time and record 1600 kHz at one time and then play it back and tune through the recorded B/W as if it was happening in real time, I'm sure these guys have gained many hours of needed sleep. You may want to check out the Perseus reflector on Yahoo to get a feel for what is happening in the Perseus world. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/perseus_SDR/ as well as Guy Atkins site Five Below MW and Tropical band DXing with the Perseus http://perseus-sdr.blogspot.com/. Also it will be interesting to read how well the IMD behavior of the SW front end filters themselves in such a small enclosure is. Small sized toroids can, from what I know, be a weak point in a receiver with high dynamic range. I will let the above comment for the experts since I surely am not one of them. From what I've heard radios such as the Perseus appear indeed to be very interesting but as always, a new technology, like good wine, needs time to mature. With over 1,000+ Perseus's now in use world wide, I think it has come along quite nicely. Like the K3, the Perseus is an ever evolving work of art. BTW since this originally started out as using a Perseus as a 2nd receiver. I have used the Perseus as a 2nd receiver and also as an IF band scope with the K3. For me, it's a good combination. As I said previously, I own both a Perseus and a K3 and respect the great accomplishments that have been made by Elecraft, Nico at Microtelecom, Flex Radio, Phil Covington, Ten-Tec and the guys who started us over 11 years ago down a new path ..Kachina.If I missed anyone, please accept my apologies. 73 Gerry K3MKZ ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] 5 pole vs. 8 pole filters
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: After operating a few contests with my K3, I think I may need to upgrade roofing filters, especially on SSB. I have the stock 2.7 and the 5 pole 500Hz CW installed now. Can anyone comment on the real world contest performance of the 8 pole vs. the 5 pole filters? On SSB with the width dialed in to 1.8-2.0 Khz, I have stations at S9 and above that are easily copyable at over 4 Khz wide which makes it tough on a crowded phone band. I can't compare them but I don't think the performance will be that different. There is a 1.8 kHz filter which some have found highly effective for SSB contesting. But keep in mind that the filter is only a backstop to the DSP filtering which comes into play if you have signals greater than about S9+20 which are inside the passband of the wider filter. It's quite possible that many of the 4 kHz wide signals that you are hearing are in fact wide signals caused by overdriven amplifiers, etc. I'm told that the Inrad supplies the filters to Elecraft, so is there really only one filter source? Elecraft does additional testing of the filters it gets from INRAD, so it's advisable to get them from Elecraft. -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] K3 and CQWW
Hi everybody, I totally agree with all who stated a superb filtering performance of the K3 in the real combat situation on the ground. This was my first CQWW CW contest wth this rig and in the Low Power category (usually I do QRP). With the only dipole antenna for 80-10m and a surrogate vertical (4m pipe with 40m wire coiled on it) on 160m I was lucky enough to make 824 QSO's from the noisy central Brussels location. I would have not done tens of good DX's on 40 and 20m if not the 250Hz filter in my K3. It took me some 4 min of calling V26K on 40m before he heard me (due to my dipole-only antenna, I suppose) but I was hearing him ALL the time 599 despite a Big-Foot Romanian station sitting only 280Hz away! By the way, even with no 250Hz filter ON, the V26K was audible with no AGC blocking of the RX, just the YQ station was so much louder. With the filter - no YQ at all! Just the V26K and the pile-up. One interesting observation. It is well discussed phenomena on this reflector that using the narrow filter like 250Hz, you can not avoid the hiss or humm when the noise level is almost of the same level as of a good signal. Sometimes, on the edge of the audibility it is not possible to hear the weak signal with the filter on. I discovered that reducing the RF gain drastically often helps (that was a reason, I think, why Elecraft have decided at one point, to relocate the RF/SQL knob into more convienient position on the front pannel, hi-hi). But the combination of reducing the RF gain AND switching ON the Preamp often helped even more! Especially on 160m and 40m where the noise is worst. It may sound illogical but that's my personal impressions. Now loking forward very much to the next contest and the spring, for more antenna experiments. 73! de Linas ON4BHP K3 #1568 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
David Cutter wrote: Some folk suffer extremely strong QRM from broadcasters on 40m (particularly on the east coast of Scotland) and to them there is a real desire for the best possible gear to hear weak stations amongst huge bc signals from Europe. That's where receivers like the Perseus and others come in to their own. Hi David, Yes I can see your point, and I am certainly not questioning the benefit of High Dynamic range receivers in those situations. I guess what I am having a hard time understanding how it would be possible for any receiver, regardless of the dynamic range of the receiver, to receive a weak signal 2 Khz away from, say a 80db over 9 broadcast or other signal. Would not the IMD, sidebands, and splatter from the broadcast station itself be so severe as to prevent this? Or am I overstating the effects of transmitted phase noise and IMD? As I mentioned in my previous post, there is no way I could see operating 2 Khz away from the very strong signal of my ham neighbor. His transmitted IMD would be way too severe. But I can easily operate 20 Khz or more away with the K3. To me, any minor difference in close in dynamic range between say the Perseus and the K3 is of little or no importance in this situation. I could not receive a weak signal so close to such a strong signal anyhow because of his transmitted IMD. But the wider spaced number's matter a great deal, and that is what concerns me when I see a 117-123db BDR as compared to 140db at wider spacings. 73, John, KD8K ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] RE: K3 CQWW
I agree that there were quite a few stations running ultra high speed CW. They should slow down a bit or at least answer a station replying at a slower speed. I'm not sure just what the definition of really slow speed is these days, but some operators, myself included, love to use a straight key. The K3 has a jack just for my straight keys in addition to having one for paddles. Are we QRMing these contest stations by using a straight key? If so, too bad. They can choose not to answer, but we certainly have the right to reply.at any speed. There are many times when contest stations QRM those who are just on to operate and are not participating in the event. An example of that would be SSB on 160 spreading out all the way down to the low end. Speaking of those ultra high speed CW stations, I have to wonder if they are in a radio contest or a computer contest? Isn't the computer doing most of the operating. I don't know, since having the PC run the show, as far as contest exchanges are concerned, is of absolutely no interest to me. Does the computer copy and select the calling station? ( I have no idea?? ) If it does, then it really is a computer contest and not a ham radio contest. C'ya in the ARRL 160 73, Dave N8AG ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Fw: [Elecraft] K3 and CQWW
Well put. I learned code from a former world war II Merchant Marine radio operator back in the 60's. He had me copying 25 wpm code groups, not plain language, effortlessly by the time I took my Extra class code test. I used to be able to carry on at 25 wpm. But I found 18 - 20 wpm was a very comfortable speed in most contests. I get very few requests for repeats. I will slow down as much as required to get a contact when necessary. Yes, I would rather not when I have a good run going. But that doesn't happen very often with my FT- 1000MP barefoot peanut whistle For the fast guys, I cheat and use cw get. If the person has a halfway decent signal, there are few stations that it can't follow. The tuning aid is great for zero beating. With only 100 watts output to a Radio Works Super Loop, I am generally an S P contester, and tend to shy away from the big pileups. I hope to be able to purchase a K3 someday if Elecraft doesn't go belly up first. 73, Steve Brandt N7VS Portland, Oregon On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:06:35 -0800 (PST), Bill W4ZV wrote: said a very slow caller in a big pileup. I did not say a slow caller with nobody else calling. I stand by my statement. Agreed. One W7 kept calling continuously at 18 wpm when it was obvious he couldn't hear the DX station. I heard several instances of that, and it made things quite difficult for the guys that COULD hear the DX. I also wouldn't disparage contesters too much. They're much more likely to hear your 100W to an attic antenna than someone using similar antennas to yours. QRPers sometimes forget who is doing the real work when they make a rare DX contact. Agreed on all counts. I've been in chairs on both sides of that QSO. The antenna farms at stations like N6RO and W8JI include serious RX antennas and serious RXs. THAT'S why they can work flies peeing out the window in JA on 160. But I also agree with G4ILO when he correctly observed these egomaniacs CQing at 40 WPM for the last 8 hours of the contest and getting very few answers. QRQ WAS definitely part of why they were getting no calls -- they had already worked the several hundred guys who CAN read 40 WPM. My call has a lot of dashes in it, so I regularly work at 29 WPM or so, but when things get slow, I'll CQ at 25 or so. When it's not piled up, I'll certainly QRS when the other guy is QRS. But like you, when I'm running, the call I'll answer first is the one I think I can work the quickest, whether it's a better signal or a faster/better op. Jim K9YC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU
I have to agree with the reasoning behind John's comments here. As has been opined by many, the K3 really shines its brightest on CW, where spurious transmitter products are typically limited to the occasional key clicks. The percentage of misadjusted and badly offending transmitters is MUCH greater on SSB; I don't think anybody would argue with that. That said, it's all a matter of arithmetic, and there are a lot of variables involved -- on both the TX and the RX ends. But all other factors being equal, how much is it worth to have the needed receiver dynamic range for that one must-have SSB contest or DX QSO that you wouldn't get without it? Many would say (no trademark infringement intended), Priceless! For most of us, that isn't literally true, of course. You do reach a point of diminishing returns with anything, especially in engineering. The K3, IMO, strikes what is just about a perfect balance between high-end performance and price. No other radio even comes close to the K3's price/performance ratio, as far as I can tell. Bill W5WVO - Original Message - From: John A. McCabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: elecraft elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 6:11 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 ADAT ADT-200A by HB9CBU David Cutter wrote: Some folk suffer extremely strong QRM from broadcasters on 40m (particularly on the east coast of Scotland) and to them there is a real desire for the best possible gear to hear weak stations amongst huge bc signals from Europe. That's where receivers like the Perseus and others come in to their own. Hi David, Yes I can see your point, and I am certainly not questioning the benefit of High Dynamic range receivers in those situations. I guess what I am having a hard time understanding how it would be possible for any receiver, regardless of the dynamic range of the receiver, to receive a weak signal 2 Khz away from, say a 80db over 9 broadcast or other signal. Would not the IMD, sidebands, and splatter from the broadcast station itself be so severe as to prevent this? Or am I overstating the effects of transmitted phase noise and IMD? As I mentioned in my previous post, there is no way I could see operating 2 Khz away from the very strong signal of my ham neighbor. His transmitted IMD would be way too severe. But I can easily operate 20 Khz or more away with the K3. To me, any minor difference in close in dynamic range between say the Perseus and the K3 is of little or no importance in this situation. I could not receive a weak signal so close to such a strong signal anyhow because of his transmitted IMD. But the wider spaced number's matter a great deal, and that is what concerns me when I see a 117-123db BDR as compared to 140db at wider spacings. 73, John, KD8K ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
