Re: [Elecraft] OT; Feedline question

[Wes Stewart]

I'll agree with both points.

That said, think about the space between wires.  On and about the wires is a 
relatively thin layer of plastic.  From there, the space between wires is filled 
with...wait for it...air.


It might be worthwhile to read this: http://k6mhe.com/n7ws/Ladder_Line.pdf

On 4/15/2017 6:16 PM, Clay Autery wrote:

Actually thermoplastics are NOT majority air  I'm not an expert
here,


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[Elecraft] Elecraft CW Net Announcement

[kev...@coho.net]

Good Evening,

The sun has continued to be quiescent.  A CME just grazed us and another 
high speed stream of wind is on the way for tomorrow. Ions are getting 
to the ionosphere but nothing like last spring. Spinning the knob gives 
me not much to nothing on the higher bands while lower down there are 
more stations.


The week was filled with a variety of precipitation types. Only this 
morning there were flakes of snow, slushy streaks of snow, pellets of 
snow, and rain.  Between the snow falls, the rain showers, and the gusty 
winds there were a few pauses. Let's me collect wood and not get 
soaked.  Then came the sun. Not just for five minutes but for a number 
of hours.  Maybe winter is losing its grip.  I had not seen the sun for 
that long since October.



Please join us tomorrow on:

   14050 kHz at 2200z Sunday (3 PM PDT Sunday)
7045 kHz at z Monday (5 PM PDT Sunday)

73,
Kevin. KD5ONS

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Re: [Elecraft] Sub Receiver I.F. Tap

[Harry Yingst via Elecraft]

Yes it is possible 
I was going to replacate the buffer amp as it was on the main receiver for my 
sub receiver 




 Original message 
From: wa9fvp  
Date: 2017-04-15  11:52 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Subject: [Elecraft] Sub Receiver I.F. Tap 

I notice on the sub-receiver schematic dated 8/18/08 that there was a
connector for a plug-in board. I assume it was for an I.F. buffer plug-in
circuit that connects to J93 for an I.F. tap.  I didn’t see that on the
KRX3A but the jumper W3 is near connector J78. Is it possible to attach a
J309 to and duplicate the circuit on the main receiver?

John Albert WA9FVP
WillcoElectronics.





-
Jack WA9FVP

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[Elecraft] Sub Receiver I.F. Tap

[wa9fvp]

I notice on the sub-receiver schematic dated 8/18/08 that there was a
connector for a plug-in board. I assume it was for an I.F. buffer plug-in
circuit that connects to J93 for an I.F. tap.  I didn’t see that on the
KRX3A but the jumper W3 is near connector J78. Is it possible to attach a
J309 to and duplicate the circuit on the main receiver?

John Albert WA9FVP
WillcoElectronics.





-
Jack WA9FVP

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Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 mobile?

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

As Phil knows, it is commonly used on ships in the US Navy for the same reason. 
Many US Navy ships have an on-board cellular system but it's useless without a 
way to get RF into all the compartments and passageways through steel plate! 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Phil Kane
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 3:25 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 mobile?

On 4/15/2017 7:43 AM, Phil Hystad wrote:

> Unfortunately, I can’t remember anything of the details of how this 
> was done but I suspect wide-band amplifiers and wires and top-side 
> wide-band antennas.

Leaky coax (trade name == Radiax).  It's many-decades-old technology.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Re: [Elecraft] Heathkit Tool.

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Yep, I have one too. 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of wa9fvp
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 1:38 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] Heathkit Tool.

Years ago I built a Heathkit SB101 and other smaller projects. Normally they
would include a very a handy tool.  It's a plastic, what I call, a "nut
holding" tool.  Keeping it all these years I found it to be very handy while
assembling my KPA500, KAT500 and K3S. 

 



-
Jack WA9FVP

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Re: [Elecraft] Sub Receiver & KBPF3

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Hi Jack:

Page 16 of the KBPF3A manual says under the heading "Enable the KBPF3A
Module":

"Enable the KBPF3A for either the main or sub receiver using the CONFIG menu
as described in the
Owner's Manual. The KBPF3A will not operate until this is done!" 

Perhaps I should have repeated the whole procedure in the KPBP3A manual. 

I think you will get a LOT of agreement that installing the KRX3 module is
one of the most complex bits of assembly of the K3S. We've made many
"tweaks" to the procedure in the attempt to make it easier, but it is still
not simple. 

73, Ron AC7AC


-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of wa9fvp
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 1:27 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] Sub Receiver & KBPF3

I just installed the Sub receiver and the KBPF3A in my K3S.  I have one
complaint and one concern. 

First the activation of the KBPF3A is very vague.  It's mentioned in the
users manual on page 60 (the configuration menu) but there's nothing that
says, while in (CONFIG:KBFP3) that you have to press [SUB] and then select
"nor".  I double checked the installation manual for the sub receiver and
the KBFP3A but there was nothing about activating the General Coverage
filters.

My concern is;  I consider myself as an experienced kit builder but for me,
it was a bit difficult installing the Sub-Receiver.  The TMP cables were in
the way and sub-receiver box was a bit difficult getting the SUBIN and
SUBOUT boards to align and mate properly.  Someone who is new to kit
building would have a more difficult time.

The sub-receiver is working great and the one thing I like about it is; it's
a clone of the main receiver with FM, AM, 2.8, 400 and 250Hz filters.  I
wonder how the sub-receiver would stack-up on Sherwood Engineering's test
data. 

Jack WA9FVP
Willco Electronics



-
Jack WA9FVP

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Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 mobile?

[Dan Baker]

The very best station on Sirius/XM really destroys the beautiful melodious
 sounds and overtones coming from the banjo.  It gives it a watery metal
sound. However that does not stop me from listening to it. It is really all
about the content. That's why I can enjoy bluegrass on my iphone or XM
radio. Nothing coming close to listening live music when you are surrounded
by other pickers. So you do not have to bother with finding the perfect
speaker or stereo. They can never reproduce what you hear live. Same thing
with radio. It is all about the content. This is one reason we enjoy CW so
much. The tone sounds like you are in presence of the sending cw operator
coming out of our receivers. It only has to reproduce one tone, it's fairly
narrow and it sounds live.  Jim K9YC I am sure you have good term for this.
I don't know what the phenomena is called. Maybe if the speaker was shaped
like a banjo that would be a good place to start to reproduce its sound
however, then you need another one shaped like a dobro and so on. Not
really practical.

73,   Dan KM6CQ

*Don't sacrifice your hobby for the right house.*


I occasionally car pool to ham events with a neighbor in his high end
VW. He bought the satellite service, and we sometimes listen to it. It
drops out with foliage and under overpasses. Sound quality is so bad
that it's hard to listen to any form of acoustic music. Perhaps too much
data compression, made worse by any problems with the signal path.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] OT; Feedline question

[Clay Autery]

Actually thermoplastics are NOT majority air  I'm not an expert
here, but the dielectric constant appears to increase with thickness and
probably with density of the material.

Keep in mind that the standard insulation on THHN is 0.015"
thermoplastic (PVC) and that is covered by a 3-4 mill layer of clear
nylon to protect the insulation on conduit pulls...

I've given up trying to understand it all fully

I've just decided to treat the entire feedline assembly from tuner
(radio) to antenna as a impedance matching network
Bottom line  getting the impedances in band to such a level that you
can tune it...

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MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 4/15/2017 8:02 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
> Why do you suppose a little bit of dielectric on the wire would make a
> huge change, when the majority of dielectric is still air?
>
>
> On 4/15/2017 3:56 PM, Clay Autery wrote:
>> Thanks
>>
>> So, these numbers are for BARE copper, right?
>> Using insulated wire changes things a bunch
>>
>> For instance 18 GA THHN/THWN has an approx. dc of 2.35, XLPE has a dc of
>> 5 or so  As the dielectric constant gets larger, things get real
>> fast.
>>
>> 18 GA THHN/THWN...  (dc = 2.35 approx.)
>>
>> To get the same 464 Ohms, the Center to center distance must increase to
>> 7.52 inches or so...
>
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Re: [Elecraft] OT; Feedline question

[Wes Stewart]

Why do you suppose a little bit of dielectric on the wire would make a huge 
change, when the majority of dielectric is still air?



On 4/15/2017 3:56 PM, Clay Autery wrote:

Thanks

So, these numbers are for BARE copper, right?
Using insulated wire changes things a bunch

For instance 18 GA THHN/THWN has an approx. dc of 2.35, XLPE has a dc of
5 or so  As the dielectric constant gets larger, things get real
fast.

18 GA THHN/THWN...  (dc = 2.35 approx.)

To get the same 464 Ohms, the Center to center distance must increase to
7.52 inches or so...


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Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 mobile?

[Clay Autery]

Touche!  :)

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(318) 518-1389

On 4/15/2017 7:24 PM, Bob Nielsen wrote:
> Waveguide below cutoff.
>
> On 4/15/17 10:54 AM, Clay Autery wrote:
>> The ultimate directional, high-pass filter...  
>>
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>> (318) 518-1389
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Re: KPA500 mobile?

[Clay Autery]

The tunnel on Taylor Road, Newcastle, CA, which is the best candidate
for a tunnel on a road that may have been part of the old US Route
40 as it officially ends in Utah now. :)

That tunnel runs ENE to WSW or therabouts...

0.103 km or 544.6 feet
62 degrees 49 minutes from south to north 

Seems off axis unless the satellite is way off-axis but I had to use
a seriously off-axis sat once when I lived in CA  Had to aim the
dish almost due east near the horizon...

We just renewed for her for another 3 years...  She's happy, I'm happy.

Waveguide  I don't know enough to hazard a guess   But at a an
approx 13 centimeter wavelength, sat sigs can certainly travel down a
large tunnel if it enters at a small enough angle of incidence

AND, maybe that water is helping contain the signal in the "guide".

#5 cool to know.

73,

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(318) 518-1389

On 4/15/2017 6:32 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
> Well, one of the side benefits of this list ... lots of smart and
> knowledgeable people.  A summary and then it can pass into the archive
> ...
>
> 1.  The first of "my" tunnels is in Newcastle CA [between Auburn and
> Sacramento  on the old US40 and Lincoln Hwy route] and was constructed
> sometime around the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th centuries. 
> It's not quite 1/4 mile long.  There is no visible wire or radiax in
> it.  The hill it runs thru is full of water and you get leaked on when
> driving thru it, even in summer.
>
> 2.  In the early 80's, the company I worked for then had a contract to
> rehab the communications for the Bay Area Rapid Transit system.  We
> used a 300 ohm twinlead with a hollow core about 2 1/2 in in diameter
> along the ceiling of the tunnels and underground sections.  It was 150
> MHz land mobile stuff and the twinlead was fed from a combiner that
> put 5 or 6 transmitters into it [train control, fire, security, etc.] 
> It worked very well. Aligning the combiners [which actually looked a
> bit like a still [:-) ] was a bear in the equipment spaces in the tube
> under SF Bay but it worked well.  They also wanted 800 MHz simulcast
> throughout the service area, a requirement probably still waiting for
> a real solution.
>
> 3.  Other than under bridges, in canyons, beside heavily forested
> roads, and in the garage, where it's obvious the path to the
> satellite(s) is blocked, we don't experience any XM drop outs. She's
> going to drop the subscription, it's expensive and my new Honda
> Ridgeline has become our travel vehicle, but she's had it since 2013.
>
> 4.  I've wondered if there wasn't some sort of waveguide effect in
> tunnels.  For BART, one of the many problems we had with simulcast was
> that it leaked into the tunnels, even as far as the bottom of the
> Transbay tube.  I don't know the XM satellite frequencies but I
> thought they occupied some spectrum abandoned by the Cellphone industry.
>
> 5. [Bonus Factoid]: The pine forests of the Southeast US are opaque to
> 800 MHz.
>
> Thanks for all the ideas and peripheral info.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
> Sparks NV USA
> Washoe County DM09dn

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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] No Power out, no sigs in

[Geoff Allsup]

I had similar trouble related to the synthesizer boards on a K3. On the newer 
KSYN3A boards there is a green LED on the top edge of the board that should be 
ON if the board is working ok. You mentioned a sub RX so you should have two of 
these boards mounted against the back of the front panel.  

In any case, if the main KSYN3 board dies, everything acts as you've described. 
If the sub RX KSYN3 board dies, only the sub RX is affected. So there is a 
chance you could swap the KSYN3 boards and bring the main K3 back to life at 
the expense of no sub RX. 

Just a thought - bit of a pain to swap those boards. 

Geoff - W1OH 



Sent from my iPhone

Geoff Allsup, W1OH   gall...@whoi.edu or w...@whoi.edu
Senior Engineer Upper Ocean Processes Group
Woods Hole Oceanographic InstitutionWoods Hole, MA


> On Apr 15, 2017, at 19:33, Martin  wrote:
> 
> Elecrafters,
> i'm on vacation at a /p qth and K3 #2878 has quit working.
> I have no power out. The display reads 0.0 watts when holding the tune 
> button, regardless of mode.
> In RX I hear noise from the headphones , but no signals. The noise sounds 
> like the K3 sounds when no antenna is attached.
> 
> I attached my antenna to RX-IN , no joy
> Also no signals on SUB-RX.
> 
> The only measurement gear i have right now is an ohmmeter and a powermeter.
> I have no programming cable right now.
> 
> I should have mentioned that i had power out briefly. but the cable of the 
> headphones was very close to the ladderline , in fact touched it, when i 
> checked match by holding TUNE.
> 
> Any advice what to check?
> 
> -- 
> 
> 73, Martin
> 
> Ohne CW ist es nur CB...
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 mobile?

[Bob Nielsen]

Waveguide below cutoff.

On 4/15/17 10:54 AM, Clay Autery wrote:

The ultimate directional, high-pass filter...  

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On 4/15/2017 10:14 AM, Jim Stahl via Elecraft wrote:

OTOH, this can be a feature of tunnels, not a bug. Several years ago I was 
riding on the “BikePike”, an abandoned section of the PA Turnpike east of 
Breezewood that has become a bicycle route featuring two old tunnels. Although 
closed off to motor vehicle traffic, we noticed a pickup parked outside the 
entrance to one of the tunnels. A few hundred yards into the tunnel we 
encountered a minivan with lots of high end electronic test equipment. Turns 
out the guys were doing tests on some military equipment, to determine that it 
was RF quiet to prevent detection by enemy forces. We didn’t ask a lot more, 
lest they would have had to shoot us  :-)


73  -  Jim  K8MR

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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Re: KPA500 mobile?

[Matt Zilmer]

I think that both XM and Sirius were/are using 2.2 GHzor thereabouts.  
It's not MSS territory, but it works if you have enough power behind it.


73,

matt W6NIA


On 4/15/2017 4:32 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
Well, one of the side benefits of this list ... lots of smart and 
knowledgeable people.  A summary and then it can pass into the archive 
...


1.  The first of "my" tunnels is in Newcastle CA [between Auburn and 
Sacramento  on the old US40 and Lincoln Hwy route] and was constructed 
sometime around the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th centuries.  
It's not quite 1/4 mile long.  There is no visible wire or radiax in 
it.  The hill it runs thru is full of water and you get leaked on when 
driving thru it, even in summer.


2.  In the early 80's, the company I worked for then had a contract to 
rehab the communications for the Bay Area Rapid Transit system.  We 
used a 300 ohm twinlead with a hollow core about 2 1/2 in in diameter 
along the ceiling of the tunnels and underground sections.  It was 150 
MHz land mobile stuff and the twinlead was fed from a combiner that 
put 5 or 6 transmitters into it [train control, fire, security, etc.]  
It worked very well. Aligning the combiners [which actually looked a 
bit like a still [:-) ] was a bear in the equipment spaces in the tube 
under SF Bay but it worked well.  They also wanted 800 MHz simulcast 
throughout the service area, a requirement probably still waiting for 
a real solution.


3.  Other than under bridges, in canyons, beside heavily forested 
roads, and in the garage, where it's obvious the path to the 
satellite(s) is blocked, we don't experience any XM drop outs. She's 
going to drop the subscription, it's expensive and my new Honda 
Ridgeline has become our travel vehicle, but she's had it since 2013.


4.  I've wondered if there wasn't some sort of waveguide effect in 
tunnels.  For BART, one of the many problems we had with simulcast was 
that it leaked into the tunnels, even as far as the bottom of the 
Transbay tube.  I don't know the XM satellite frequencies but I 
thought they occupied some spectrum abandoned by the Cellphone industry.


5. [Bonus Factoid]: The pine forests of the Southeast US are opaque to 
800 MHz.


Thanks for all the ideas and peripheral info.

73,

Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
Sparks NV USA
Washoe County DM09dn



On 4/15/2017 10:40 AM, Clay Autery wrote:

I would think it would depend almost entirely on the orientation of the
tunnel...   (and satellite reception azimuth).

First, the longest of those two tunnels is only 425 feet or so. The
other is significantly shorter (southbound).
The tunnels are oriented generally north/south which is the preferred
direction IF you have to monitor geosynchronous satellite transmissions
from overhead...  sort of).
You are right on the edge of a large body of water, which while not
brine, has better conductivity than the soil around the lake.
Significant potential for reflections off the high ground on almost all
sides

Don't know where that first tunnel is, so I can't comment.  But if you
gotta hear in a tunnel those two would be great candidates...

73,

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 4/14/2017 10:47 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

Semi-related curiosity regarding shielding.  My wife's car has
Sirius/XM radio.  It usually loses contact with the satellite driving
under Interstate bridges and the like.  Likewise in the garage.  OTOH,
at our previous home there was a tunnel through a small hill, perhaps
1/4 mi long.  The XM worked fine through it. There are a pair of
tunnels at Cave Rock next to Lake Tahoe through a granite mountain.
XM works fine through them too.  Anyone know why?

73,

Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
Sparks NV USA
Washoe County DM09dn

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"A delay is better than a disaster."
-- unknonwn

Matt Zilmer, W6NIA
[Shiraz]

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[Elecraft] [K3] No Power out, no sigs in

[Martin]

Elecrafters,
i'm on vacation at a /p qth and K3 #2878 has quit working.
I have no power out. The display reads 0.0 watts when holding the tune 
button, regardless of mode.
In RX I hear noise from the headphones , but no signals. The noise 
sounds like the K3 sounds when no antenna is attached.


I attached my antenna to RX-IN , no joy
Also no signals on SUB-RX.

The only measurement gear i have right now is an ohmmeter and a powermeter.
I have no programming cable right now.

I should have mentioned that i had power out briefly. but the cable of 
the headphones was very close to the ladderline , in fact touched it, 
when i checked match by holding TUNE.


Any advice what to check?

--

73, Martin

Ohne CW ist es nur CB...
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Re: KPA500 mobile?

[Fred Jensen]

Well, one of the side benefits of this list ... lots of smart and 
knowledgeable people.  A summary and then it can pass into the archive ...


1.  The first of "my" tunnels is in Newcastle CA [between Auburn and 
Sacramento  on the old US40 and Lincoln Hwy route] and was constructed 
sometime around the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th centuries.  
It's not quite 1/4 mile long.  There is no visible wire or radiax in 
it.  The hill it runs thru is full of water and you get leaked on when 
driving thru it, even in summer.


2.  In the early 80's, the company I worked for then had a contract to 
rehab the communications for the Bay Area Rapid Transit system.  We used 
a 300 ohm twinlead with a hollow core about 2 1/2 in in diameter along 
the ceiling of the tunnels and underground sections.  It was 150 MHz 
land mobile stuff and the twinlead was fed from a combiner that put 5 or 
6 transmitters into it [train control, fire, security, etc.]  It worked 
very well. Aligning the combiners [which actually looked a bit like a 
still [:-) ] was a bear in the equipment spaces in the tube under SF Bay 
but it worked well.  They also wanted 800 MHz simulcast throughout the 
service area, a requirement probably still waiting for a real solution.


3.  Other than under bridges, in canyons, beside heavily forested roads, 
and in the garage, where it's obvious the path to the satellite(s) is 
blocked, we don't experience any XM drop outs. She's going to drop the 
subscription, it's expensive and my new Honda Ridgeline has become our 
travel vehicle, but she's had it since 2013.


4.  I've wondered if there wasn't some sort of waveguide effect in 
tunnels.  For BART, one of the many problems we had with simulcast was 
that it leaked into the tunnels, even as far as the bottom of the 
Transbay tube.  I don't know the XM satellite frequencies but I thought 
they occupied some spectrum abandoned by the Cellphone industry.


5. [Bonus Factoid]: The pine forests of the Southeast US are opaque to 
800 MHz.


Thanks for all the ideas and peripheral info.

73,

Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
Sparks NV USA
Washoe County DM09dn



On 4/15/2017 10:40 AM, Clay Autery wrote:

I would think it would depend almost entirely on the orientation of the
tunnel...   (and satellite reception azimuth).

First, the longest of those two tunnels is only 425 feet or so.  The
other is significantly shorter (southbound).
The tunnels are oriented generally north/south which is the preferred
direction IF you have to monitor geosynchronous satellite transmissions
from overhead...  sort of).
You are right on the edge of a large body of water, which while not
brine, has better conductivity than the soil around the lake.
Significant potential for reflections off the high ground on almost all
sides

Don't know where that first tunnel is, so I can't comment.  But if you
gotta hear in a tunnel those two would be great candidates...

73,

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 4/14/2017 10:47 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

Semi-related curiosity regarding shielding.  My wife's car has
Sirius/XM radio.  It usually loses contact with the satellite driving
under Interstate bridges and the like.  Likewise in the garage.  OTOH,
at our previous home there was a tunnel through a small hill, perhaps
1/4 mi long.  The XM worked fine through it. There are a pair of
tunnels at Cave Rock next to Lake Tahoe through a granite mountain.
XM works fine through them too.  Anyone know why?

73,

Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
Sparks NV USA
Washoe County DM09dn

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Re: [Elecraft] OT; Feedline question

[Matt Zilmer]

I don't think you're missing anything.  It was a good question.  Please 
also see Clay's reply.


73,

matt W6NIA


On 4/15/2017 4:08 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote:

Okay, and thanks to all for the info which I will save.

What made me curious is that twin lead is stated in steps of 150 ohms.
IE. 300, 450, 600.
I assumed it was to match the impedance of certain antennas such as a
folded dipole, etc.
Since I understand my loop to be a non-resonant antenna, and using a
manual tuner, I thought
I'd be okay to change the spacer dims, but I wondered if I was
over-looking something.

Thanks again,

Dick, n0ce



On 4/15/2017 11:39 AM, Richard Fjeld wrote:

Forgive me for the OT, but there are many antenna people here above my
pay-grade.

I need to replace the spacers on my ladder line.  If I deviate from the
standard spacer length for impedance
(separation between conductors), are there problems I'm not thinking
of?  I use a quality manual tuner, and
an 80 meter delta loop.

Perhaps it would be best to reply off line for this.  Thank you in advance.

Dick, n0ce



--
"A delay is better than a disaster."
-- unknonwn

Matt Zilmer, W6NIA
[Shiraz]

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[Elecraft] OT: Leaky coax

[Ken G Kopp]

Lots of "leaky" coax in use, both passive and active.  Used in mines,
buildings, both large and tall, paging systems in hospitals, etc.

Here in the mountains of Montana most RR tunnels have it for carrying
control signals between front and rear multiple-engine units.  There are
antennas connect to the coax at both ends.

Trivia: It's not unusual for a grain train to be much longer that the
tunnel through the Continental Divide.

73
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Re: [Elecraft] OT; Feedline question

[Matt Zilmer]

I was trying to find the dielectric constant (Epsilon sub r) for this 
poly jacket that's used on the standard HRO-available line.  The 
calculations I did were for open wire line with air being the dialectric 
(something like 1.0054).  The first ladder line that I used was made 
from BIC pens, cut in half for about 3" center to center. After that 
much hassle to put together and raise, when it got wind-blown and torn 
up, I just started using the HRO stuff.


Have only seen really heavy feeds in use at SW BC stations, and only 
twice at that. Looked like 4 AWG, but might've been heavier.  Some of 
WWVH's curtain feeds lookmuch the same.



73,

matt W6NIA


On 4/15/2017 3:56 PM, Clay Autery wrote:

Thanks

So, these numbers are for BARE copper, right?
Using insulated wire changes things a bunch

For instance 18 GA THHN/THWN has an approx. dc of 2.35, XLPE has a dc of
5 or so  As the dielectric constant gets larger, things get real
fast.

18 GA THHN/THWN...  (dc = 2.35 approx.)

To get the same 464 Ohms, the Center to center distance must increase to
7.52 inches or so...
The impedance with the quoted 1, 2, and 3 inch "D":

1" = 305-306 Ohms

2" = 359-360 Ohms

3" = 391-392 Ohms

I use 300 Ohm, 18 GA copper twin-lead with foam over wires and some hard
plastic over that  It's close to true 300 Ohm...

I'll have to go calculate the min size safe against various power
levels...  The separation distances get big fast with increase in the
conductor diameter, too.

73,

PS - there is an argument to be made for NOT using bare wire  if
anything MIGHT touch the feedline...   and wet wire   wet wire
changes performance a lot...  built with insulated wire, the changes are
MUCH smaller with wet wire...

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 4/15/2017 4:56 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote:

Very true!

Got back in front of my desktop 'puter and made an Excel worksheet to
calculate the characteristic impedance at various spacings and wire
sizes.  The real variable is the ratio of spacing divided by wire
diameter (only the ratio matters). Everything else in the formula is a
constant for our purposes.

16 AWG, 1 inchspacing:  Zc = 436 ohms

16 AWG, 2 inchspacing: Zc= 519 ohms

16 AWG, 3 inch spacing: Zc= 567 ohms

18 AWG, 1 inch sp:  Zc = 464 ohms

18 AWG, 2 inch sp:  Zc = 547 ohms

18 AWG, 3 inch sp:  Zc = 595 ohms

Or for you QRO ops: 3/0 AWG, 9 inch spacing: Zc = 450 ohms.  3/0
(three-aught) is quite hefty, being 0.4" in diameter. Probably
overkill for the average Joe Ham.

The commercial ladder line I use is 18 AWG with about 0.9" spacing
(hard to measure), giving 451 ohms. I think there is a lot of this
type in use.

Anyway, for the wire sizes and spacings we would normally use, the Zc
is nearly the same value, which is all I was saying before.

The formulas for all this are pretty well documented at
http://hamwaves.com/zc.circular/en/index.html.

73,

matt W6NIA

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--
"A delay is better than a disaster."
-- unknonwn

Matt Zilmer, W6NIA
[Shiraz]

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Re: [Elecraft] OT; Feedline question

[Richard Fjeld]

Okay, and thanks to all for the info which I will save.

What made me curious is that twin lead is stated in steps of 150 ohms. 
IE. 300, 450, 600.
I assumed it was to match the impedance of certain antennas such as a 
folded dipole, etc.
Since I understand my loop to be a non-resonant antenna, and using a 
manual tuner, I thought
I'd be okay to change the spacer dims, but I wondered if I was 
over-looking something.

Thanks again,

Dick, n0ce



On 4/15/2017 11:39 AM, Richard Fjeld wrote:
> Forgive me for the OT, but there are many antenna people here above my
> pay-grade.
>
> I need to replace the spacers on my ladder line.  If I deviate from the
> standard spacer length for impedance
> (separation between conductors), are there problems I'm not thinking
> of?  I use a quality manual tuner, and
> an 80 meter delta loop.
>
> Perhaps it would be best to reply off line for this.  Thank you in advance.
>
> Dick, n0ce
>

-- 

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Re: [Elecraft] OT; Feedline question

[Clay Autery]

Thanks

So, these numbers are for BARE copper, right?
Using insulated wire changes things a bunch

For instance 18 GA THHN/THWN has an approx. dc of 2.35, XLPE has a dc of
5 or so  As the dielectric constant gets larger, things get real
fast.

18 GA THHN/THWN...  (dc = 2.35 approx.)

To get the same 464 Ohms, the Center to center distance must increase to
7.52 inches or so...
The impedance with the quoted 1, 2, and 3 inch "D":

1" = 305-306 Ohms

2" = 359-360 Ohms

3" = 391-392 Ohms

I use 300 Ohm, 18 GA copper twin-lead with foam over wires and some hard
plastic over that  It's close to true 300 Ohm...

I'll have to go calculate the min size safe against various power
levels...  The separation distances get big fast with increase in the
conductor diameter, too.

73,

PS - there is an argument to be made for NOT using bare wire  if
anything MIGHT touch the feedline...   and wet wire   wet wire
changes performance a lot...  built with insulated wire, the changes are
MUCH smaller with wet wire...

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 4/15/2017 4:56 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
> Very true!
>
> Got back in front of my desktop 'puter and made an Excel worksheet to
> calculate the characteristic impedance at various spacings and wire
> sizes.  The real variable is the ratio of spacing divided by wire
> diameter (only the ratio matters). Everything else in the formula is a
> constant for our purposes.
>
> 16 AWG, 1 inchspacing:  Zc = 436 ohms
>
> 16 AWG, 2 inchspacing: Zc= 519 ohms
>
> 16 AWG, 3 inch spacing: Zc= 567 ohms
>
> 18 AWG, 1 inch sp:  Zc = 464 ohms
>
> 18 AWG, 2 inch sp:  Zc = 547 ohms
>
> 18 AWG, 3 inch sp:  Zc = 595 ohms
>
> Or for you QRO ops: 3/0 AWG, 9 inch spacing: Zc = 450 ohms.  3/0
> (three-aught) is quite hefty, being 0.4" in diameter. Probably
> overkill for the average Joe Ham.
>
> The commercial ladder line I use is 18 AWG with about 0.9" spacing
> (hard to measure), giving 451 ohms. I think there is a lot of this
> type in use.
>
> Anyway, for the wire sizes and spacings we would normally use, the Zc
> is nearly the same value, which is all I was saying before.
>
> The formulas for all this are pretty well documented at
> http://hamwaves.com/zc.circular/en/index.html.
>
> 73,
>
> matt W6NIA
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 mobile? -- OT tunnel communications

[Phil Kane]

On 4/15/2017 8:45 AM, Phil Hystad wrote:

> And, cellular service will be ultimately in all of the tunnels under
> Seattle and already exists in the oldest downtown tunnel as described
> here:

"All it takes is money"  (my favorite phrase)

Now if they were to fund ham-band repeaters - that would be something!

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

>From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Re: [Elecraft] Heathkit Tool.

[Kevin - K4VD]

Never bought from this place but this looks similar to the nut started of
old...

http://smallbear-electronics.mybigcommerce.com/search.php?search_query=3215&x=0&y=0



On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Eric J  wrote:

> Very handy. It was called a Nut Starter. All mine became too worn to use.
> I tried soda straws of different diameter and they sort of work for awhile,
> but they tend to split. Turns out Mouser.com has them for about 2 bucks.
> Search for Menda, the manufacturer or "Nut Starter". I had them throw one
> in on a previous order. Looks the same only black so probably the original
> mfr.
>
> Menda might private brand them with "Elecraft" as a promotional giveaway
> at trade shows or something...
>
> Eric
>
> KE6US
>
>
>
>
> On 4/15/2017 1:37 PM, wa9fvp wrote:
>
> Years ago I built a Heathkit SB101 and other smaller projects. Normally
> they
> would include a very a handy tool.  It's a plastic, what I call, a "nut
> holding" tool.  Keeping it all these years I found it to be very handy
> while
> assembling my KPA500, KAT500 and K3S.
>
> <
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/file/n7629328/DSC00410.jpg>
>
>
>
> -
> Jack WA9FVP
>
> Sent from my home-brew I5 Core PC
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.
> nabble.com/Heathkit-Tool-tp7629328.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> __
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> .
>
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 mobile?

[Phil Kane]

On 4/15/2017 7:43 AM, Phil Hystad wrote:

> Unfortunately, I can’t remember anything of the details of how this
> was done but I suspect wide-band amplifiers and wires and top-side
> wide-band antennas.

Leaky coax (trade name == Radiax).  It's many-decades-old technology.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Re: [Elecraft] Heathkit Tool.

[Eric J]

Very handy. It was called a Nut Starter. All mine became too worn to use. I 
tried soda straws of different diameter and they sort of work for awhile, but 
they tend to split. Turns out Mouser.com has them for about 2 bucks. Search for 
Menda, the manufacturer or "Nut Starter". I had them throw one in on a previous 
order. Looks the same only black so probably the original mfr.

Menda might private brand them with "Elecraft" as a promotional giveaway at 
trade shows or something...

Eric

KE6US




On 4/15/2017 1:37 PM, wa9fvp wrote:

Years ago I built a Heathkit SB101 and other smaller projects. Normally they
would include a very a handy tool.  It's a plastic, what I call, a "nut
holding" tool.  Keeping it all these years I found it to be very handy while
assembling my KPA500, KAT500 and K3S.





-
Jack WA9FVP

Sent from my home-brew I5 Core PC
--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Heathkit-Tool-tp7629328.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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.



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Re: [Elecraft] OT; Feedline question

[Matt Zilmer]

Very true!

Got back in front of my desktop 'puter and made an Excel worksheet to 
calculate the characteristic impedance at various spacings and wire 
sizes.  The real variable is the ratio of spacing divided by wire 
diameter (only the ratio matters). Everything else in the formula is a 
constant for our purposes.


16 AWG, 1 inchspacing:  Zc = 436 ohms

16 AWG, 2 inchspacing: Zc= 519 ohms

16 AWG, 3 inch spacing: Zc= 567 ohms

18 AWG, 1 inch sp:  Zc = 464 ohms

18 AWG, 2 inch sp:  Zc = 547 ohms

18 AWG, 3 inch sp:  Zc = 595 ohms

Or for you QRO ops: 3/0 AWG, 9 inch spacing: Zc = 450 ohms.  3/0 
(three-aught) is quite hefty, being 0.4" in diameter. Probably overkill 
for the average Joe Ham.


The commercial ladder line I use is 18 AWG with about 0.9" spacing (hard 
to measure), giving 451 ohms. I think there is a lot of this type in use.


Anyway, for the wire sizes and spacings we would normally use, the Zc is 
nearly the same value, which is all I was saying before.


The formulas for all this are pretty well documented at 
http://hamwaves.com/zc.circular/en/index.html.


73,

matt W6NIA


On 4/15/2017 10:52 AM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:

Off-list one person learns.  On-list we all learn.

On 4/15/2017 10:16 AM, Matt Zilmer wrote:

This is an amateur topic, so there's no reason to take it offline, imho.

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--
"A delay is better than a disaster."
-- unknonwn

Matt Zilmer, W6NIA
[Shiraz]

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Re: [Elecraft] Has anyone tried the aftermarket K3 Filters from ebay?

[Clay Autery]

The ONLY non-Elecraft supplied filter I have tried is the 700 Hz pair I
bought from UNPCBS.com  http://www.unpcbs.com/#k3_filter

They have done multiple group buys and they source them the same place
as Elecraft  They work great!  Only place to get a 700Hz.

I would be hesitant to buy from eBay unless I KNEW what I was getting...


73,

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On 4/15/2017 3:22 PM, Harry Yingst via Elecraft wrote:
>
> I was curious if anyone had tried the Aftermarket K3 Filters on ebay?
>
> (I'm not in the market for more filters as my K3 is basically full)
>
> Thank you

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Re: [Elecraft] Heathkit Tool.

[Laurent F6DEX via Elecraft]

HI

You are not alone... , from an HW101

 

73, Laurent F6DEX



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Re: [Elecraft] Heathkit Tool.

[Bill Breeden]

Jack,

I totally agree, very handy!  I still have every one that came with a 
Heathkit that I assembled.


73,

Bill - NA5DX


On 4/15/2017 3:37 PM, wa9fvp wrote:

Years ago I built a Heathkit SB101 and other smaller projects. Normally they
would include a very a handy tool.  It's a plastic, what I call, a "nut
holding" tool.  Keeping it all these years I found it to be very handy while
assembling my KPA500, KAT500 and K3S.





-
Jack WA9FVP

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[Elecraft] Heathkit Tool.

[wa9fvp]

Years ago I built a Heathkit SB101 and other smaller projects. Normally they
would include a very a handy tool.  It's a plastic, what I call, a "nut
holding" tool.  Keeping it all these years I found it to be very handy while
assembling my KPA500, KAT500 and K3S. 

 



-
Jack WA9FVP

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[Elecraft] Sub Receiver & KBPF3

[wa9fvp]

I just installed the Sub receiver and the KBPF3A in my K3S.  I have one
complaint and one concern. 

First the activation of the KBPF3A is very vague.  It's mentioned in the
users manual on page 60 (the configuration menu) but there's nothing that
says, while in (CONFIG:KBFP3) that you have to press [SUB] and then select
"nor".  I double checked the installation manual for the sub receiver and
the KBFP3A but there was nothing about activating the General Coverage
filters.

My concern is;  I consider myself as an experienced kit builder but for me,
it was a bit difficult installing the Sub-Receiver.  The TMP cables were in
the way and sub-receiver box was a bit difficult getting the SUBIN and
SUBOUT boards to align and mate properly.  Someone who is new to kit
building would have a more difficult time.

The sub-receiver is working great and the one thing I like about it is; it's
a clone of the main receiver with FM, AM, 2.8, 400 and 250Hz filters.  I
wonder how the sub-receiver would stack-up on Sherwood Engineering's test
data. 

Jack WA9FVP
Willco Electronics



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[Elecraft] Has anyone tried the aftermarket K3 Filters from ebay?

[Harry Yingst via Elecraft]

I was curious if anyone had tried the Aftermarket K3 Filters on ebay?

(I'm not in the market for more filters as my K3 is basically full)

Thank you
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[Elecraft] Visalia RFI Talk

[Jim Brown]

I'm scheduled to give a talk on Friday at the Visalia DX Convention 
about Finding and Killing Receive Noise. This is a slightly shortened 
version of what I did at Pacificon last fall. It's a long talk, and 
needs far more than the 45 minutes allotted. The talk is the last one 
before lunch, and I've been assured that I can run over into the lunch 
hour. Obviously, attendees can stay for as much (or as little) as they 
like.


73, Jim K9YC

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[Elecraft] New KX2 firmware with 4 programmable functions and home/field ATU settings

[Wayne Burdick]

KX2 beta firmware rev 2.75 has two new features: 4 programmable switch 
functions, and two full sets of ATU data, typically used for home/field or for 
two different antennas that overlap in their band coverage. The firmware can be 
found at:

   http://www.elecraft.com/KX2/kx2_software.htm

There’s one minor issue; using PF1-PF4 with some menu entries (like TIME) 
doesn’t allow use of the numeric keypad digits. This will be corrected in the 
next release.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

* * *

KX2 MCU 2.75 / DSP 1.49, 4-3-2017

* FOUR PROGRAMMABLE FUNCTIONS:  The KX2 now has four programmable functions, 
PF1-PF4, rather than one. These can be used to quickly access often-used menu 
entries. To set up a programmable function, locate the desired menu entry, hold 
PFn, then tap any of ‘1’ through ‘4’. Exit the menu. From then on, the menu 
function can be accessed using the associated PFn switch. If a menu entry has 
only two values (such as ON/OFF), accessing it via a programmable function will 
select the alternate value, then exit the menu immediately. This is especially 
useful with menu entries such as DUAL RX, VOX MD, ALT MD, and ATU DATA (see 
rev. 2.73, below).

* TWO ATU DATA SETS:  The KX2 will now store two full sets of per-band data for 
the internal ATU (KXAT2). Use the ATU DATA menu entry to select which set to 
use. Typically SET 1 is used at a home location, and SET 2 for field operation. 
They can also be used in cases where more than one antenna is available for a 
given band. (Note: The ATU DATA menu entry has no effect on KXAT100 ATU data, 
which is already stored separately for each of the KXPA100 amplifier’s antenna 
jacks. The KX2 can remotely switch KXPA100 antennas using the ANT.X SW menu 
entry.)

* ATU LC NETWORK VALUE DISPLAY:  In either the ATU.DATA or ATU MD menu entry, 
tapping the "ATU" switch shows the present values of L (inductance), C 
(capacitance) and N (L-network configuration). This applies only to the 
internal ATU (KXAT2). The displayed data format is LxxCxxNy.  is a 2-digit 
hexadecimal value that, when converted to binary, shows which ATU L or C relays 
are engaged.  shows which side of the L-network the capacitance is on: Nt = 
TX side, and NA = antenna side.

* ATU CLEAR AFFECTS ONLY CURRENT DATA SET: Within the ATU DATA or ATU MD menu 
entries, CLR (hold of the OFS/B knob) now clears KXAT2 ATU data only for the 
presently selected data set (SET 1 or SET 2) on the present band. As before, 
CLR is recommended when using the internal ATU with a new antenna. Once the 
data is cleared, very few ATU tune operations will usually be needed to cover 
an entire band. Note: If a KXPA100 amplifier is connected, the CLR operation 
applies to the KXAT100 ATU’s per-band/per-antenna data, not to the data for the 
internal KXAT2 ATU.



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Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 mobile?

[Clay Autery]

The ultimate directional, high-pass filter...  

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On 4/15/2017 10:14 AM, Jim Stahl via Elecraft wrote:
> OTOH, this can be a feature of tunnels, not a bug. Several years ago I was 
> riding on the “BikePike”, an abandoned section of the PA Turnpike east of 
> Breezewood that has become a bicycle route featuring two old tunnels. 
> Although closed off to motor vehicle traffic, we noticed a pickup parked 
> outside the entrance to one of the tunnels. A few hundred yards into the 
> tunnel we encountered a minivan with lots of high end electronic test 
> equipment. Turns out the guys were doing tests on some military equipment, to 
> determine that it was RF quiet to prevent detection by enemy forces. We 
> didn’t ask a lot more, lest they would have had to shoot us  :-)
>
>
> 73  -  Jim  K8MR

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Re: [Elecraft] OT; Feedline question

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

Off-list one person learns.  On-list we all learn.

On 4/15/2017 10:16 AM, Matt Zilmer wrote:

This is an amateur topic, so there's no reason to take it offline, imho.

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Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 mobile?

[Clay Autery]

Hate to hear that...  Wife loves it. (2014 Fusion).  I'm mostly happy
with it, too.  Though I prefer to just play what I want from my phone
(high bit-rate mp3).  Of course, neither of us are audiophiles, and I
flew helicopters... 

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On 4/14/2017 11:41 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> On Fri,4/14/2017 9:06 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
>> I used Sirius in the early 2000s, and used to experience regular
>> dropouts of 4 seconds in several locations on my commuteto/from
>> work.  Each of these areas was under a highway or freeway.
>
> I occasionally car pool to ham events with a neighbor in his high end
> VW. He bought the satellite service, and we sometimes listen to it. It
> drops out with foliage and under overpasses. Sound quality is so bad
> that it's hard to listen to any form of acoustic music. Perhaps too
> much data compression, made worse by any problems with the signal path.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
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[Elecraft] OT: Re: KPA500 mobile?

[Clay Autery]

I would think it would depend almost entirely on the orientation of the
tunnel...   (and satellite reception azimuth).

First, the longest of those two tunnels is only 425 feet or so.  The
other is significantly shorter (southbound).
The tunnels are oriented generally north/south which is the preferred
direction IF you have to monitor geosynchronous satellite transmissions
from overhead...  sort of).
You are right on the edge of a large body of water, which while not
brine, has better conductivity than the soil around the lake.
Significant potential for reflections off the high ground on almost all
sides

Don't know where that first tunnel is, so I can't comment.  But if you
gotta hear in a tunnel those two would be great candidates...

73,

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On 4/14/2017 10:47 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
> Semi-related curiosity regarding shielding.  My wife's car has
> Sirius/XM radio.  It usually loses contact with the satellite driving
> under Interstate bridges and the like.  Likewise in the garage.  OTOH,
> at our previous home there was a tunnel through a small hill, perhaps
> 1/4 mi long.  The XM worked fine through it. There are a pair of
> tunnels at Cave Rock next to Lake Tahoe through a granite mountain. 
> XM works fine through them too.  Anyone know why?
>
> 73,
>
> Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
> Sparks NV USA
> Washoe County DM09dn
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Re: [Elecraft] Mobile operation RFI from QRO (was KPA500 mobile)

[Jim Brown]

On Sat,4/15/2017 8:55 AM, Colin Brench via Elecraft wrote:

My expertise is in EMI control and so I can provide some background to how 
unexpected things happen.


Great post, Colin.


RF fields around the antenna will be high and most mobile antennas have a low 
input impedance.  To fully understand EMI risk you need to understand where the 
RF current will go, and simply put you need to consider the antenna as every 
conductor in the vicinity of the actual radiator.


This is FAR too simplistic a view. The metal body, chassis, and frame 
serve as the counterpoise for the antenna. These metal parts of the 
vehicle are the return for antenna current and for the field generated 
by the antenna. This makes them part of the antenna, they are carrying 
as much power as that vertical radiator we CALL the antenna, and current 
will be distributed around the vehicle's metal parts just as in any 
other antenna. The only difference between current distribution in the 
vehicle and in a wire is that the shape of the vehicle is very different 
from a wire, so that modeling it is far more complex. This current can 
easily couple into vehicle wiring running in proximity to that current. 
And, since the VEHICLE carries RF current, the vehicle itself is part of 
the radiator.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] OT; Feedline question

[Matt Zilmer]

This is an amateur topic, so there's no reason to take it offline, imho.

If you run the impedance vs spacing calculations, you'll see the spacing
doesn't make a whale of a lot of difference.  I don't have the numbers
here, but I switched from 1/2 of a BIC pen  body (hole centers about 2"
apart) to some ceramic spacers another ham gave me a box full of.  The
new spacers had centers about 3.2" apart.  I had to re-tune the ATU on
most bands, but everything continued to work fine.  From (a tired old)
memory, the impedance varied from about 450 ohms to something like 600
ohms, but let someone on a computer run the calcs for this.  It just
didn't make enough difference to worry about, but did change the ladder
feed's impedance.

This antenna is a doublet about 180' long at 45 feet height, fed with
the ladder line (61' of it, from memory).  The ladder line terminates
into a 1:1 balun (Elecraft BL2) and the last 20 feet is LMR400 low-loss
coax back to the station's antenna switch.  It continues to work just as
well as with the earlier ladder spacers.

73,

matt W6NIA


On 04/15/2017 09:39 AM, Richard Fjeld wrote:
> Forgive me for the OT, but there are many antenna people here above my 
> pay-grade.
>
> I need to replace the spacers on my ladder line.  If I deviate from the 
> standard spacer length for impedance
> (separation between conductors), are there problems I'm not thinking 
> of?  I use a quality manual tuner, and
> an 80 meter delta loop.
>
> Perhaps it would be best to reply off line for this.  Thank you in advance.
>
> Dick, n0ce
>

-- 
"Always store beer in a dark place." -- R. Heinlein

Matt Zilmer, W6NIA
[Voignier]

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[Elecraft] OT; Feedline question

[Richard Fjeld]

Forgive me for the OT, but there are many antenna people here above my 
pay-grade.

I need to replace the spacers on my ladder line.  If I deviate from the 
standard spacer length for impedance
(separation between conductors), are there problems I'm not thinking 
of?  I use a quality manual tuner, and
an 80 meter delta loop.

Perhaps it would be best to reply off line for this.  Thank you in advance.

Dick, n0ce

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Re: [Elecraft] Mobile operation RFI from QRO (was KPA500 mobile)

[Wayne Burdick]

This is why I run 10 watts mobile with the KX2 or KX3 :) Last time I tried 
this, using 10 W into a Hustler 40-m whip, I worked JA1NUT on CW and had no 
trouble checking into a statewide net on SSB. Also had quite a few SSB QSOs on 
17 m. 

So if you find all this excellent information about mobile/QRO overwhelming, 
try mobile/QRP. 

Wayne
N6KR


http://www.elecraft.com

> On Apr 15, 2017, at 8:55 AM, Colin Brench via Elecraft 
>  wrote:
> 
> Greetings to all,
> I thought I would start a separate thread to expand this topic is a slightly 
> different direction as this topic touches on a number of areas.
> The exposure discussion is very valid especially in today's vehicles that 
> often contain composites rather than metal panels, but I will leave this to 
> others.  My expertise is in EMI control and so I can provide some background 
> to how unexpected things happen.
> The DC issues are clear - you need to provide enough power cleanly to an 
> inverter.  Well over 100 Amps peak with acceptable drop.  This is all very 
> low resistance but not necessarily low impedance at the high frequencies 
> being used.  So some serious EMI filtering may be needed to keep things 
> stable.  
> RF fields around the antenna will be high and most mobile antennas have a low 
> input impedance.  To fully understand EMI risk you need to understand where 
> the RF current will go, and simply put you need to consider the antenna as 
> every conductor in the vicinity of the actual radiator. The one rule of 
> antennas is that current goes to zero/reflect back from an end.  This is how 
> NEC works - it solves for the current distribution over the entire structure 
> be it a dipole or frigate, these currents are then used to calculate the 
> antenna effect.  Now for a vehicle the antenna and car body are the most 
> obvious conductors to consider and may be OK for the antenna analysis.  
> However, considering all conductors is essential for EMI analysis, so add in 
> all the cables, door slots (well insulated breaks in the 'Faraday cage'), all 
> other antennas, engine and mounts ground straps etc.  Picking which can be 
> ignored in a given situation requires serious expertise.
> For QRO operation these directly induced currents are very critical.  
> Unwanted high current on any electronically controlled function can have 
> unexpected and potentially unpleasant results. The addition of the ham 
> antenna, DC wiring, other control wires combined with the possible positions 
> for each part of the system may drastically change the results of the system 
> analysis performed by the vehicle designers.  So caution is certainly called 
> for.
> EMI testing has a number of aspects, using a radiated field of 200V/m is one 
> typical test for remote EMI risks.  Direct current injection is used to 
> simulate near effects such as cells phones of an on-board transceiver of 
> 'moderate' power.  If you can find out how the vehicle you have was tested, 
> then it is possible to get an idea of how much risk there might be (using NEC 
> to guesstimate the induced currents on each band).  this is not easy
> Today's vehicles have so many safety critical electronic circuits that 
> manufacturers do go to extremes to keep everything bullet proof, but 1kW to a 
> (by necessity poor) antenna is most likely outside their considerations.  EMI 
> issues won't show all the time, as effects can interact, there is a stream of 
> data being passed at all times and upsetting some data patterns can be easier 
> than others.  Because of this testing takes a long time to get a high 
> confidence that vehicle performance is reliable or at least will fail to a 
> safe mode
> OK. all said what is practical here?  First I would consider how much power I 
> really want to use as the problems grow rapidly with higher power.  Seek the 
> advice of someone familiar with both QRO operation and your specific vehicle 
> if possible (as was done on this list).  Be cautious and aware of the vehicle 
> behavior until you are sure all is well.  I would happily run a 1kW in my 
> 1969 vehicle, but would be extremely cautious abut that in my 2015 minivan!  
> Though ensuring good general RF design consideration I would not worry about 
> 100W in the minivan, maybe 200W, after that I would be in caution zone.
> A call to the vehicle manufacturer might shed light on what they consider 
> reasonable or possible (though they might just say don't do that :-/  )
>   Very 73,
>   Colin.. WDJR
> 
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[Elecraft] Mobile operation RFI from QRO (was KPA500 mobile)

[Colin Brench via Elecraft]

Greetings to all,
I thought I would start a separate thread to expand this topic is a slightly 
different direction as this topic touches on a number of areas.
The exposure discussion is very valid especially in today's vehicles that often 
contain composites rather than metal panels, but I will leave this to others.  
My expertise is in EMI control and so I can provide some background to how 
unexpected things happen.
The DC issues are clear - you need to provide enough power cleanly to an 
inverter.  Well over 100 Amps peak with acceptable drop.  This is all very low 
resistance but not necessarily low impedance at the high frequencies being 
used.  So some serious EMI filtering may be needed to keep things stable.  
RF fields around the antenna will be high and most mobile antennas have a low 
input impedance.  To fully understand EMI risk you need to understand where the 
RF current will go, and simply put you need to consider the antenna as every 
conductor in the vicinity of the actual radiator. The one rule of antennas is 
that current goes to zero/reflect back from an end.  This is how NEC works - it 
solves for the current distribution over the entire structure be it a dipole or 
frigate, these currents are then used to calculate the antenna effect.  Now for 
a vehicle the antenna and car body are the most obvious conductors to consider 
and may be OK for the antenna analysis.  However, considering all conductors is 
essential for EMI analysis, so add in all the cables, door slots (well 
insulated breaks in the 'Faraday cage'), all other antennas, engine and mounts 
ground straps etc.  Picking which can be ignored in a given situation requires 
serious expertise.
For QRO operation these directly induced currents are very critical.  Unwanted 
high current on any electronically controlled function can have unexpected and 
potentially unpleasant results. The addition of the ham antenna, DC wiring, 
other control wires combined with the possible positions for each part of the 
system may drastically change the results of the system analysis performed by 
the vehicle designers.  So caution is certainly called for.
EMI testing has a number of aspects, using a radiated field of 200V/m is one 
typical test for remote EMI risks.  Direct current injection is used to 
simulate near effects such as cells phones of an on-board transceiver of 
'moderate' power.  If you can find out how the vehicle you have was tested, 
then it is possible to get an idea of how much risk there might be (using NEC 
to guesstimate the induced currents on each band).  this is not easy
Today's vehicles have so many safety critical electronic circuits that 
manufacturers do go to extremes to keep everything bullet proof, but 1kW to a 
(by necessity poor) antenna is most likely outside their considerations.  EMI 
issues won't show all the time, as effects can interact, there is a stream of 
data being passed at all times and upsetting some data patterns can be easier 
than others.  Because of this testing takes a long time to get a high 
confidence that vehicle performance is reliable or at least will fail to a safe 
mode
OK. all said what is practical here?  First I would consider how much power I 
really want to use as the problems grow rapidly with higher power.  Seek the 
advice of someone familiar with both QRO operation and your specific vehicle if 
possible (as was done on this list).  Be cautious and aware of the vehicle 
behavior until you are sure all is well.  I would happily run a 1kW in my 1969 
vehicle, but would be extremely cautious abut that in my 2015 minivan!  Though 
ensuring good general RF design consideration I would not worry about 100W in 
the minivan, maybe 200W, after that I would be in caution zone.
A call to the vehicle manufacturer might shed light on what they consider 
reasonable or possible (though they might just say don't do that :-/  )
  Very 73,
      Colin..     WDJR

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Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 mobile? -- OT tunnel communications

[Phil Hystad]

I found one link that describes basically this service for AM/FM radio 
reception in the I-90 tunnels.  It is section 7.3 (right near the end) of this 
link:

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2012/06/26/I-90TunnelSystem.pdf

And, cellular service will be ultimately in all of the tunnels under Seattle 
and already exists in the oldest downtown tunnel as described here:

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/seattle-transit-tunnels-will-finally-get-cellphone-signals/

73, phil, K7PEH



> On Apr 15, 2017, at 8:14 AM, Jim Stahl  wrote:
> 
> OTOH, this can be a feature of tunnels, not a bug. Several years ago I was 
> riding on the “BikePike”, an abandoned section of the PA Turnpike east of 
> Breezewood that has become a bicycle route featuring two old tunnels. 
> Although closed off to motor vehicle traffic, we noticed a pickup parked 
> outside the entrance to one of the tunnels. A few hundred yards into the 
> tunnel we encountered a minivan with lots of high end electronic test 
> equipment. Turns out the guys were doing tests on some military equipment, to 
> determine that it was RF quiet to prevent detection by enemy forces. We 
> didn’t ask a lot more, lest they would have had to shoot us  :-)
> 
> 
> 73  -  Jim  K8MR
> 
> 
>> On Apr 15, 2017, at 10:43 AM, Phil Hystad  wrote:
>> 
>> A number of tunnels are “wired” for broadband radio reception.  A bit of 
>> years ago when they were building the I-90 stretch between Bellevue and 
>> Seattle there are two major “tunnels” on each side of the I-90 floating 
>> bridge (across Lake Washington).  The tunnel on Mercer Island is actually 
>> not a tunnel but a covered section of the freeway but the tunnel on the west 
>> end is through the hill (known as the Mount Baker tunnel but not because it 
>> is under Mount Baker but because it is under the Mount Baker neighborhood of 
>> Seattle).
>> 
>> So, a news article at the time described how the technology was employed to 
>> provide radio reception for AM, FM, and also cellular communication.  I 
>> don’t remember reading about Sirius/XM radio though.  I do know that my HF 
>> mobile operations come to a halt through those tunnels.  As signals drop off 
>> after a 100 feet or so from the opening and don’t come back until the other 
>> side.
>> 
>> Unfortunately, I can’t remember anything of the details of how this was done 
>> but I suspect wide-band amplifiers and wires and top-side wide-band antennas.
>> 
>> 73, phil, K7PEH
>> 
>> 
>>> On Apr 14, 2017, at 8:47 PM, Fred Jensen  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Semi-related curiosity regarding shielding.  My wife's car has Sirius/XM 
>>> radio.  It usually loses contact with the satellite driving under 
>>> Interstate bridges and the like.  Likewise in the garage.  OTOH, at our 
>>> previous home there was a tunnel through a small hill, perhaps 1/4 mi long. 
>>>  The XM worked fine through it. There are a pair of tunnels at Cave Rock 
>>> next to Lake Tahoe through a granite mountain.  XM works fine through them 
>>> too.  Anyone know why?
>>> 
>>> 73,
>>> 
>>> Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
>>> Sparks NV USA
>>> Washoe County DM09dn
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 mobile?

[Jim Stahl via Elecraft]

OTOH, this can be a feature of tunnels, not a bug. Several years ago I was 
riding on the “BikePike”, an abandoned section of the PA Turnpike east of 
Breezewood that has become a bicycle route featuring two old tunnels. Although 
closed off to motor vehicle traffic, we noticed a pickup parked outside the 
entrance to one of the tunnels. A few hundred yards into the tunnel we 
encountered a minivan with lots of high end electronic test equipment. Turns 
out the guys were doing tests on some military equipment, to determine that it 
was RF quiet to prevent detection by enemy forces. We didn’t ask a lot more, 
lest they would have had to shoot us  :-)


73  -  Jim  K8MR


> On Apr 15, 2017, at 10:43 AM, Phil Hystad  wrote:
> 
> A number of tunnels are “wired” for broadband radio reception.  A bit of 
> years ago when they were building the I-90 stretch between Bellevue and 
> Seattle there are two major “tunnels” on each side of the I-90 floating 
> bridge (across Lake Washington).  The tunnel on Mercer Island is actually not 
> a tunnel but a covered section of the freeway but the tunnel on the west end 
> is through the hill (known as the Mount Baker tunnel but not because it is 
> under Mount Baker but because it is under the Mount Baker neighborhood of 
> Seattle).
> 
> So, a news article at the time described how the technology was employed to 
> provide radio reception for AM, FM, and also cellular communication.  I don’t 
> remember reading about Sirius/XM radio though.  I do know that my HF mobile 
> operations come to a halt through those tunnels.  As signals drop off after a 
> 100 feet or so from the opening and don’t come back until the other side.
> 
> Unfortunately, I can’t remember anything of the details of how this was done 
> but I suspect wide-band amplifiers and wires and top-side wide-band antennas.
> 
> 73, phil, K7PEH
> 
> 
>> On Apr 14, 2017, at 8:47 PM, Fred Jensen  wrote:
>> 
>> Semi-related curiosity regarding shielding.  My wife's car has Sirius/XM 
>> radio.  It usually loses contact with the satellite driving under Interstate 
>> bridges and the like.  Likewise in the garage.  OTOH, at our previous home 
>> there was a tunnel through a small hill, perhaps 1/4 mi long.  The XM worked 
>> fine through it. There are a pair of tunnels at Cave Rock next to Lake Tahoe 
>> through a granite mountain.  XM works fine through them too.  Anyone know 
>> why?
>> 
>> 73,
>> 
>> Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
>> Sparks NV USA
>> Washoe County DM09dn

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Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 mobile?

[Phil Hystad]

A number of tunnels are “wired” for broadband radio reception.  A bit of years 
ago when they were building the I-90 stretch between Bellevue and Seattle there 
are two major “tunnels” on each side of the I-90 floating bridge (across Lake 
Washington).  The tunnel on Mercer Island is actually not a tunnel but a 
covered section of the freeway but the tunnel on the west end is through the 
hill (known as the Mount Baker tunnel but not because it is under Mount Baker 
but because it is under the Mount Baker neighborhood of Seattle).

So, a news article at the time described how the technology was employed to 
provide radio reception for AM, FM, and also cellular communication.  I don’t 
remember reading about Sirius/XM radio though.  I do know that my HF mobile 
operations come to a halt through those tunnels.  As signals drop off after a 
100 feet or so from the opening and don’t come back until the other side.

Unfortunately, I can’t remember anything of the details of how this was done 
but I suspect wide-band amplifiers and wires and top-side wide-band antennas.

73, phil, K7PEH


> On Apr 14, 2017, at 8:47 PM, Fred Jensen  wrote:
> 
> Semi-related curiosity regarding shielding.  My wife's car has Sirius/XM 
> radio.  It usually loses contact with the satellite driving under Interstate 
> bridges and the like.  Likewise in the garage.  OTOH, at our previous home 
> there was a tunnel through a small hill, perhaps 1/4 mi long.  The XM worked 
> fine through it. There are a pair of tunnels at Cave Rock next to Lake Tahoe 
> through a granite mountain.  XM works fine through them too.  Anyone know why?
> 
> 73,
> 
> Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
> Sparks NV USA
> Washoe County DM09dn
> 
> On 4/14/2017 2:50 PM, Phil Kane wrote:
>> On 4/14/2017 1:13 PM, KENT TRIMBLE wrote:
>> 
>>> The assumption has always been that the driver and passengers are riding
>>> inside a Faraday Cage and therefore are safe from RF radiated by an HF
>>> antenna, regardless of where located and regardless of power level.
>> When I take my 2011 Ford Focus through the car wash, I put the mag-mount
>> VHF antenna inside the car but it is still connected to the radio.  I
>> have no problem picking up the usual 2- and 3/4- meter repeaters that
>> way.  So much for the "Faraday Cage".  :)
>> 
>> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
>> Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402
>> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] [P3] SVGA Option: transmitted text not visible on external display

[Charles R.Tropp via Elecraft]

Hi Adrian,
The only way to view transmitted cw on the P3 transmit window would be by using 
an USB keyboard plugged into the rear of the P3. Paddles will not work. 73, 
Charles N2SO
Treasurer, Quarter Century Wireless Association, Inc. http://QCWA.org 

On Saturday, April 15, 2017 7:21 AM, Adrian Helwig via Elecraft 
 wrote:
 

 Hello,I finally was able to set up the SVGA option in my P3 but I'm just 
wondering why when transmitting CW with my paddle text is not visible on the 
external display.Everything seems to be setup correctly.thanks for Your help
Adrian, DH1AHL, 
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[Elecraft] [P3] SVGA Option: transmitted text not visible on external display

[Adrian Helwig via Elecraft]

Hello,I finally was able to set up the SVGA option in my P3 but I'm just 
wondering why when transmitting CW with my paddle text is not visible on the 
external display.Everything seems to be setup correctly.thanks for Your help
Adrian, DH1AHL, 
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 mobile?

[Luis V. Romero]

Shameless Promotion but interesting story:

Two years ago in the Florida QSO Party, our local "Mad Scientist" and mobile
operations God Chris, NX4N, decided to do something that had never been done
before:  

A Multi Multi mobile entry!

In his Chevy Suburban, we had four radios: A K3 in the front seat (K0LUZ), a
Pro2 (W4BP) and a K3 in the second row (K4KM) and me with a K3 in the third
row.  20m, 40m, 15m and 10m in that order.  Chris did all the driving.  It
was an all CW operation.

Lots of filtering and coax stubs installed.  Four separate antennas on the
corners of the roof.  Four separate computers. The KX3 was feeding a KPA500
in the back of the Suburban which turned it into a 100w radio.  Power
supplies and other sundries were installed in a bread rack in the back and
secured by Bungie cords.

Feeding power to all of this was a Honda 2kW generator with an external fuel
tank mounted on a carrier attached to the trailer hitch. The generator was
covered by a plastic tub held on to the hitch carrier with Bungie cords.
This cover was for rain abatement. The cover was  adorned with special vents
on the side.  Yes, crazy and a gray area of mobile legality, But all of us
survived to tell the tale. And it was Great fun! And I remember working
OM2VL at almost every single county line.  

It's the only time I have seen a KPA500 mobile.  

I have since bowed out of this glorious extreme mobile engineering
achievement. But it continues with others to this day. 

And it will be on this coming weekend in the Florida QSO Party's 20th
anniversary celebration.  

The call sign used by this intrepid crew is K4OJ (in honor of FCG Founder
Jim White (SK)).   Look for them this coming weekend! 

Lu - W4LT 
(W4I in the FQP - Spell "F-L-O-R-I-D-A  S-U-N" with our 20 "letter
multiplier" stations -2 for each letter - for a special certificate!)


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