Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Edward R Cole]

Elecraft has made their design decisions for the K4.

Since someone suggested running a 100w 12v device at 60w then it 
occurs to me to obtain 100-120w then run two devices in parallel or 
push-pull.  Should not increase weight or drive requirements by a 
significant amount.  Cost probably under 150%.


I bought the K3/10 initially because i mainly operate VHF thru 
mw.  Later I bought a 10w KX3.  Then decided on the KXPA100 which 
either can drive with about 5w for full output thru 24m.  Of course 
the KXPA100 uses 12v devices but a clever ham could build a two 
device amp, instead.  Only on 6m is full 8w drive required for 80w 
output of the KXPA100.


I use the 1mw (nom) transverter interface to drive transverters on 2m 
and above so output is clean.  I have a 1000w linear* for 6m which 
drives with 11w from the KXPA100 (have to switch on the 3-dB attn on 
input to get that low).  The 1000w amp runs with 48v as do my 2m 
1500w and 600w 1296 LDMOS amps.  I keep output at start of saturation 
or lower on all the high power amps.


*6m 1000w amp is capable of 1600w 24/7 keydown AM operation on ch.2 
TV, so is loafing at 1000w which is the limit of my 48v - 50A PS.


73, Ed - KL7UW
  http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  dubus...@gmail.com 


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Re: [Elecraft] K2/100 Power Measurements

[Jim Brown]

On 11/4/2019 8:49 PM, Holger Doerschel wrote:

drops at 100 W / 28 MHz to 12.2 V.


What size wire? How long?

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K2/100 Power Measurements

[Holger Doerschel]

Dear Don,


I read at the K2 13.6 V. It is a Powerwerx PS from Elecraft with the two 
Powerpole connectors at the front. The Voltage drops at 100 W / 28 MHz 
to 12.2 V. I already replaced D16. No change. I tried several PS.



73,

Holger DL9HDA


On 05.11.19 02:46, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Holger,

Is your power supply voltage at 13.8 volts or better yet 14.3 volts? 
That should be as measured by the voltage display on the K2.  It 
should not drop below 12.7 volts during a 100 watt transmit.


Part of the problem may be attributed to the voltage vs. frequency 
curve of KPA100 D16 - which should be a 1N5711 diode.  I have seen 
diodes that have become "flaky" with use, replacement with a new one 
is the only cure should that be the problem.


Other than limited voltage to the KPA100 or the response curve for 
D16, there is usually no other answer for the behavior you are seeing.


Remember that the power may vary by as much as 1 dB from band to band, 
and at the 100 watt level is about 20 watts, so you may not have any 
problem other than diode tolerance vs. frequency.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 11/4/2019 4:53 PM, Holger Doerschel wrote:

Hi,

after I finally installed the KAF2 module in my K2/100 05775, it was 
time to do a complete alignment and I ran into this old problem again.


The output power at 160 m is 100 W. And drops from band to band to 80 W.

Now I have adjusted the KPA100 to 10m. Now I have there 100 W but 
then on 160 m 120 W.


Measured with an LP-100A and dummy load. SWR is fine!



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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Gary Smith]

FWIW, I am betting on the K4 and have 
fully pre-paid the estimate on the K4D. 

If it comes out to cost more in the end, 
so be it. I love my K3 & the K3s because 
of their wonderful brilliance, how could I 
not possibly go for the K4 knowing the 
mentality behind the brand?

Personally, I wish I had an iota of the 
necessary mojo to create such a radio. As 
I don't, I have faith in those who do.

My 2 pence...

73,

Gary
KA1J


> How much money would you like to bet? As much as Eric and Wayne? If
> your assertion were true, no one would buy a Flex, or an Icom or a
> FTDX-101. Hams love new stuff and there's a reason that Wayne and Eric
> are willing to bet their actual money against your virtual money that
> lots of ops will want a K4. If you've been following this list, people
> have been asking for a replacement for the K3/K3S for a decade. I'm
> pretty sure if Elecraft builds it, the customers will come.
> 
> The K4 will likely have a cleaner signal than the K3S due to
> predistortion.
> 
> 73,
> Scott N9AA
> 
> 
> On 11/4/19 9:42 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
> >
> > I don't want to look like I'm beating a dead horse so this will be
> > my last comment on the subject, but my point was that I don't think
> > very many contest stations or DXpeditions are going to sell their
> > K3s rigs to buy a K4 (I don't see a compelling reason for them to do
> > so), so I'm not sure how much value there is in it being a 12 volt
> > rig even if the price range is similar.   If anyone views that
> > differently I'd like to hear their reasoning.
> >
> > And I'd bet a lot of money that most contesters or DXpedition 
> > operators would be glued to their laptop screens and punching
> > keyboard buttons instead of watching the LCD display on the rig. I
> > know that I have operated entire major contests without ever
> > touching anything except the tuning knob on my K3.  Everything else
> > I need to do is controllable from N1MM+.
> >
> > The capability for future features could of course prove me wrong on
> > both accounts, but for now it just doesn't seem to me that they
> > would likely override the immediate value in having a significantly
> > cleaner signal.  Clearly Elecraft has made their choice, for better
> > or for worse.
> >
> > Done now.  ;)
> >
> > 73,
> > Dave   AB7E
> >
> >
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Scott Manthe]

How much money would you like to bet? As much as Eric and Wayne? If your 
assertion were true, no one would buy a Flex, or an Icom or a FTDX-101. 
Hams love new stuff and there's a reason that Wayne and Eric are willing 
to bet their actual money against your virtual money that lots of ops 
will want a K4. If you've been following this list, people have been 
asking for a replacement for the K3/K3S for a decade. I'm pretty sure if 
Elecraft builds it, the customers will come.


The K4 will likely have a cleaner signal than the K3S due to predistortion.

73,
Scott N9AA


On 11/4/19 9:42 PM, David Gilbert wrote:


I don't want to look like I'm beating a dead horse so this will be my 
last comment on the subject, but my point was that I don't think very 
many contest stations or DXpeditions are going to sell their K3s rigs 
to buy a K4 (I don't see a compelling reason for them to do so), so 
I'm not sure how much value there is in it being a 12 volt rig even if 
the price range is similar.   If anyone views that differently I'd 
like to hear their reasoning.


And I'd bet a lot of money that most contesters or DXpedition 
operators would be glued to their laptop screens and punching keyboard 
buttons instead of watching the LCD display on the rig. I know that I 
have operated entire major contests without ever touching anything 
except the tuning knob on my K3.  Everything else I need to do is 
controllable from N1MM+.


The capability for future features could of course prove me wrong on 
both accounts, but for now it just doesn't seem to me that they would 
likely override the immediate value in having a significantly cleaner 
signal.  Clearly Elecraft has made their choice, for better or for worse.


Done now.  ;)

73,
Dave   AB7E




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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[David Gilbert]

I don't want to look like I'm beating a dead horse so this will be my 
last comment on the subject, but my point was that I don't think very 
many contest stations or DXpeditions are going to sell their K3s rigs to 
buy a K4 (I don't see a compelling reason for them to do so), so I'm not 
sure how much value there is in it being a 12 volt rig even if the price 
range is similar.   If anyone views that differently I'd like to hear 
their reasoning.


And I'd bet a lot of money that most contesters or DXpedition operators 
would be glued to their laptop screens and punching keyboard buttons 
instead of watching the LCD display on the rig.  I know that I have 
operated entire major contests without ever touching anything except the 
tuning knob on my K3.  Everything else I need to do is controllable from 
N1MM+.


The capability for future features could of course prove me wrong on 
both accounts, but for now it just doesn't seem to me that they would 
likely override the immediate value in having a significantly cleaner 
signal.  Clearly Elecraft has made their choice, for better or for worse.


Done now.  ;)

73,
Dave   AB7E


On 11/4/2019 6:39 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

Elecraft itself was forged during Field Day. This (and other cases where 
portability matter) are engrained in our DNA :)

A K4 or K4D is actually in a similar price range to K3S stations, as typically 
configured. And many of these are taken out of the shack, at least historically 
speaking.

The added convenience of a built-in panadapter is of great utility on FD or for 
DXpeditions. I used the rig last FD and it definitely enhanced my abilities as 
an operator. Since we also have a lot of expansion capability in software, 
we'll be able to add features in the future targeted at enhancing operating 
convenience and efficiency.

73,
Wayne
N6KR




On Nov 4, 2019, at 4:54 PM, David Gilbert  wrote:


I guess I still don't understand that choice, particularly since the bulk of 
the new features that separate the K4 from the K3s seem geared more toward 
fixed station use than portable operation.  You could have kept the K3s (which 
is still a world class rig) for anyone actually needing portable capability 
while making the K4 a much cleaner rig than it now will be.  I'd be surprised 
if very many DXpeditions or contesters are going to feel the need to upgrade 
from a K3s to a K4, and if so I'd be interested in hearing why.   I'd also bet 
that the great majority of K4 users will never take their rig outside the house 
or need to run it off emergency power, yet all of them are now going to have 
signals at least 10 db less clean than was technically practical.

Like it or not, Sherwood's recent QST article applies to Elecraft.

Dave   AB7E



On 11/4/2019 4:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

Hi all,

We've chosen to have the K4 continue to be a field-capable radio, inheriting 
the characteristics that have always made the K3/K3S (and the K2 before it) the 
preferred rig for FD, DXpeditions, and multi-transmitter stations. Thanks to a 
lightweight but rigid internal aluminum frame, the K4 weighs only slightly more 
than the K3/K3S, while integrating in a large LCD in a way that increases width 
by less than 3 inches. (Unlike on many rigs, our front panel includes separate 
optical encoders for VFO A, VFO B, and RIT/XIT.)

Current drain of the K4 is half that of most competing high-performance desktop 
radios, so it can be used with emergency power. At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for 
lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically scales maximum 
power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V.

73,
Wayne
N6KR



On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Buck  wrote:

Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V "portable" or 
"field" version.

k4ia, Buck
K3# 101
Honor Roll  8B DXCC
EasyWayHamBooks.com

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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Wayne Burdick]

Elecraft itself was forged during Field Day. This (and other cases where 
portability matter) are engrained in our DNA :)

A K4 or K4D is actually in a similar price range to K3S stations, as typically 
configured. And many of these are taken out of the shack, at least historically 
speaking.  

The added convenience of a built-in panadapter is of great utility on FD or for 
DXpeditions. I used the rig last FD and it definitely enhanced my abilities as 
an operator. Since we also have a lot of expansion capability in software, 
we'll be able to add features in the future targeted at enhancing operating 
convenience and efficiency.

73,
Wayne
N6KR



> On Nov 4, 2019, at 4:54 PM, David Gilbert  wrote:
> 
> 
> I guess I still don't understand that choice, particularly since the bulk of 
> the new features that separate the K4 from the K3s seem geared more toward 
> fixed station use than portable operation.  You could have kept the K3s 
> (which is still a world class rig) for anyone actually needing portable 
> capability while making the K4 a much cleaner rig than it now will be.  I'd 
> be surprised if very many DXpeditions or contesters are going to feel the 
> need to upgrade from a K3s to a K4, and if so I'd be interested in hearing 
> why.   I'd also bet that the great majority of K4 users will never take their 
> rig outside the house or need to run it off emergency power, yet all of them 
> are now going to have signals at least 10 db less clean than was technically 
> practical.
> 
> Like it or not, Sherwood's recent QST article applies to Elecraft.
> 
> Dave   AB7E
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/4/2019 4:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> We've chosen to have the K4 continue to be a field-capable radio, inheriting 
>> the characteristics that have always made the K3/K3S (and the K2 before it) 
>> the preferred rig for FD, DXpeditions, and multi-transmitter stations. 
>> Thanks to a lightweight but rigid internal aluminum frame, the K4 weighs 
>> only slightly more than the K3/K3S, while integrating in a large LCD in a 
>> way that increases width by less than 3 inches. (Unlike on many rigs, our 
>> front panel includes separate optical encoders for VFO A, VFO B, and 
>> RIT/XIT.)
>> 
>> Current drain of the K4 is half that of most competing high-performance 
>> desktop radios, so it can be used with emergency power. At home, use 13.8 to 
>> 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically 
>> scales maximum power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as 
>> low as 11 V.
>> 
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Buck  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V 
>>> "portable" or "field" version.
>>> 
>>> k4ia, Buck
>>> K3# 101
>>> Honor Roll  8B DXCC
>>> EasyWayHamBooks.com
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K2/100 Power Measurements

[Don Wilhelm]

Holger,

Is your power supply voltage at 13.8 volts or better yet 14.3 volts? 
That should be as measured by the voltage display on the K2.  It should 
not drop below 12.7 volts during a 100 watt transmit.


Part of the problem may be attributed to the voltage vs. frequency curve 
of KPA100 D16 - which should be a 1N5711 diode.  I have seen diodes that 
have become "flaky" with use, replacement with a new one is the only 
cure should that be the problem.


Other than limited voltage to the KPA100 or the response curve for D16, 
there is usually no other answer for the behavior you are seeing.


Remember that the power may vary by as much as 1 dB from band to band, 
and at the 100 watt level is about 20 watts, so you may not have any 
problem other than diode tolerance vs. frequency.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 11/4/2019 4:53 PM, Holger Doerschel wrote:

Hi,

after I finally installed the KAF2 module in my K2/100 05775, it was 
time to do a complete alignment and I ran into this old problem again.


The output power at 160 m is 100 W. And drops from band to band to 80 W.

Now I have adjusted the KPA100 to 10m. Now I have there 100 W but then 
on 160 m 120 W.


Measured with an LP-100A and dummy load. SWR is fine!


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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Wayne Burdick]

You're right, Joe: you don't want to push predistortion to the max available 
power out on a given band. It may be a little less than 100 W to ensure 
headroom under all load conditions.

And these days, predistortion is done with DSP. The K4 has a lot more 
horsepower in this regard than the K3/K3S.

Wayne
N6KR


> On Nov 4, 2019, at 4:54 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:
> 
> On 2019-11-04 7:34 PM, W2xj wrote:
>> One could always have a modular approach which is how other industries 
>> approach this.
> Sure, a modular approach would work well ... a 12V/60W PA or
> a 40V/200W PA that would plug into the same space.  Not exactly
> rocket science.
> 
> > BTW, predistortion   is common practice is a number of industries.
> 
> Yes, I'm very familiar with predistortion - it was common in analog
> UHF TV transmitters 30+ years ago and integral to broadcast HDTV
> today.  Still, proper setup was not something for an "appliance
> operator" and tracking changing operating conditions (e.g., fading
> batteries) takes a lot of computational horsepower.  On top of that,
> predistortion works best when the amplifier chain is not pushed for
> every last fraction of a watt of output - best results will always
> be obtained when the PA chain is reasonably clean to start with.
> 
> 73,
> 
>   ... Joe, W4TV



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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Wayne Burdick]

> On Nov 4, 2019, at 4:29 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX  wrote:
> 
> The continued insistence on 12V radios should be limited to mobile or 
> portable type and configured radios.

Like the K4 :)

Wayne
N6KR


> 
> 73
> 
> Bob, K4TAX
> 
> 
> On 11/4/2019 3:31 PM, Graydon (N7RXL) wrote:
>> I'm grateful they do.  I always run the radio off of a battery, so I don't 
>> have to ever worry about whether the AC power is on or not.  I like to be 
>> able to run my radios during a disaster.  It's a lot simpler to connect the 
>> radio to the battery, than to connect radio to power supply, then to 
>> inverter, then to battery.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 12:53 PM, David Gilbert  wrote:
>>> 
>>> ?
>>> Their continued insistence upon everything being 12 volt capable is a bit 
>>> of a puzzlement for me.
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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Wayne Burdick]

Joe,

Not everyone uses an amp with their 100-W rig (in fact, far less than half). 
Like other 100-W radios that are compatible with field use, the K3/K3S/K4 must 
make ~100 W from a 12-15 V mobile, solar, or battery supply. But it also has to 
be efficient at this power level.

If you only need amp drive power, the IMD improves. And the K4 is capable of 
predistortion, which means that at amp drive levels, IMD performance should be 
truly outstanding.

The transformer ratio is 16:1, the same as most other "12 V capable" 100 W 
transceivers. If you go to 25:1, drain current goes way up, precluding the use 
of standard 20/25-A power supplies and making the radio a lot less portable.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


> On Nov 4, 2019, at 4:45 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:
> 
> On 2019-11-04 6:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>> At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and
>> now, the K4) automatically scales maximum power output based on
>> supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V.
> 
> It is a shame that the maximum power output along with bias levels and
> transformer ratios were not selected for lowest obtainable IMD.  Output
> power (100 W) became the only specification that counted even though
> 60 W would have been enough to drive the KPA-500/KPA-1500 with truly
> outstanding IMD.
> 
> 73,
> 
>   ... Joe, W4TV
> 
> 
> On 2019-11-04 6:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> We've chosen to have the K4 continue to be a field-capable radio, inheriting 
>> the characteristics that have always made the K3/K3S (and the K2 before it) 
>> the preferred rig for FD, DXpeditions, and multi-transmitter stations. 
>> Thanks to a lightweight but rigid internal aluminum frame, the K4 weighs 
>> only slightly more than the K3/K3S, while integrating in a large LCD in a 
>> way that increases width by less than 3 inches. (Unlike on many rigs, our 
>> front panel includes separate optical encoders for VFO A, VFO B, and 
>> RIT/XIT.)
>> Current drain of the K4 is half that of most competing high-performance 
>> desktop radios, so it can be used with emergency power. At home, use 13.8 to 
>> 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically 
>> scales maximum power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as 
>> low as 11 V.
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Buck  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V 
>>> "portable" or "field" version.
>>> 
>>> k4ia, Buck
>>> K3# 101
>>> Honor Roll  8B DXCC
>>> EasyWayHamBooks.com
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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[David Gilbert]

I guess I still don't understand that choice, particularly since the 
bulk of the new features that separate the K4 from the K3s seem geared 
more toward fixed station use than portable operation.  You could have 
kept the K3s (which is still a world class rig) for anyone actually 
needing portable capability while making the K4 a much cleaner rig than 
it now will be.  I'd be surprised if very many DXpeditions or contesters 
are going to feel the need to upgrade from a K3s to a K4, and if so I'd 
be interested in hearing why.   I'd also bet that the great majority of 
K4 users will never take their rig outside the house or need to run it 
off emergency power, yet all of them are now going to have signals at 
least 10 db less clean than was technically practical.


Like it or not, Sherwood's recent QST article applies to Elecraft.

Dave   AB7E



On 11/4/2019 4:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

Hi all,

We've chosen to have the K4 continue to be a field-capable radio, inheriting 
the characteristics that have always made the K3/K3S (and the K2 before it) the 
preferred rig for FD, DXpeditions, and multi-transmitter stations. Thanks to a 
lightweight but rigid internal aluminum frame, the K4 weighs only slightly more 
than the K3/K3S, while integrating in a large LCD in a way that increases width 
by less than 3 inches. (Unlike on many rigs, our front panel includes separate 
optical encoders for VFO A, VFO B, and RIT/XIT.)

Current drain of the K4 is half that of most competing high-performance desktop 
radios, so it can be used with emergency power. At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for 
lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically scales maximum 
power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V.

73,
Wayne
N6KR



On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Buck  wrote:

Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V "portable" or 
"field" version.

k4ia, Buck
K3# 101
Honor Roll  8B DXCC
EasyWayHamBooks.com


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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 2019-11-04 7:34 PM, W2xj wrote:
One could always have a modular approach which is how other 
industries approach this.

Sure, a modular approach would work well ... a 12V/60W PA or
a 40V/200W PA that would plug into the same space.  Not exactly
rocket science.

> BTW, predistortion   is common practice is a number of industries.

Yes, I'm very familiar with predistortion - it was common in analog
UHF TV transmitters 30+ years ago and integral to broadcast HDTV
today.  Still, proper setup was not something for an "appliance
operator" and tracking changing operating conditions (e.g., fading
batteries) takes a lot of computational horsepower.  On top of that,
predistortion works best when the amplifier chain is not pushed for
every last fraction of a watt of output - best results will always
be obtained when the PA chain is reasonably clean to start with.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2019-11-04 7:34 PM, W2xj wrote:

One could always have a modular approach which is how other industries approach 
this. Broadband combiners are not that complicated. BTW, predistortion   is 
common practice is a number of industries.

Sent from my iPad


On Nov 4, 2019, at 5:03 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:

On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:

Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of
portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios.
They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts.


If that's the design philosophy, limit the power output to 60 W PEP.

Elecraft already have *two* other 12V capable radios - the KX2 and KX3 -
of one doesn't count the K2.  *WHY* create another dirty 12V radio
("active predistortion" is not the solution) when one can have a clean
60W radio at 12V or a clean 200W radio at 40V?

Build a DC-DC supply for the 40V PA stage if one wants to run it from
an automobile electrical system (or install a separate 48V alternator,
regulator and battery specifically for the PA stage).

Increasing transmit IMD by a factor of 40 just to operate the radio
at 100 W PEP on a 12 battery is unconscionable given today's state
of the art.  It was different when 48V transistors/FETs were not
available but that ship sailed almost 20 years ago.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV



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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 2019-11-04 6:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and
now, the K4) automatically scales maximum power output based on
supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V.


It is a shame that the maximum power output along with bias levels and
transformer ratios were not selected for lowest obtainable IMD.  Output
power (100 W) became the only specification that counted even though
60 W would have been enough to drive the KPA-500/KPA-1500 with truly
outstanding IMD.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2019-11-04 6:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

Hi all,

We've chosen to have the K4 continue to be a field-capable radio, inheriting 
the characteristics that have always made the K3/K3S (and the K2 before it) the 
preferred rig for FD, DXpeditions, and multi-transmitter stations. Thanks to a 
lightweight but rigid internal aluminum frame, the K4 weighs only slightly more 
than the K3/K3S, while integrating in a large LCD in a way that increases width 
by less than 3 inches. (Unlike on many rigs, our front panel includes separate 
optical encoders for VFO A, VFO B, and RIT/XIT.)

Current drain of the K4 is half that of most competing high-performance desktop 
radios, so it can be used with emergency power. At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for 
lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically scales maximum 
power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V.

73,
Wayne
N6KR



On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Buck  wrote:

Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V "portable" or 
"field" version.

k4ia, Buck
K3# 101
Honor Roll  8B DXCC
EasyWayHamBooks.com



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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

As stated earlier, a radio with internal power supply capable of 90V to 
250V and run the PA devices from 48 to 60 volts for a 100 watt radios.  
And for mobile or portable, a 12VDC to 120VAC converter, makes it a 12V 
radio.   I use a 1000 watt pure sinewave converter on our travel 
trailer.  The converter is about 1/2 the size of my P3 and cost about 
$300.   Thus not much more than the cost of a AC power supply and it is 
CLEAN.


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 11/4/2019 4:02 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
> Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of
> portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios.
> They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts.

If that's the design philosophy, limit the power output to 60 W PEP.

Elecraft already have *two* other 12V capable radios - the KX2 and KX3 -
of one doesn't count the K2.  *WHY* create another dirty 12V radio
("active predistortion" is not the solution) when one can have a clean
60W radio at 12V or a clean 200W radio at 40V?

Build a DC-DC supply for the 40V PA stage if one wants to run it from
an automobile electrical system (or install a separate 48V alternator,
regulator and battery specifically for the PA stage).

Increasing transmit IMD by a factor of 40 just to operate the radio
at 100 W PEP on a 12 battery is unconscionable given today's state
of the art.  It was different when 48V transistors/FETs were not
available but that ship sailed almost 20 years ago.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of 
portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios. 
They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts. Lots of 
other manufacturers love giant, heavy rigs. Elecraft doesn't.


73,
Scott N9AA


On 11/4/19 3:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote:


I agree completely with all of that, but with the discontinuance of 
the K3s it seems that Elecraft doesn't really consider the K4 to be 
strictly a base station rig. Their continued insistence upon 
everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me.


73,
Dave   AB7E




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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[W2xj]

One could always have a modular approach which is how other industries approach 
this. Broadband combiners are not that complicated. BTW, predistortion   is 
common practice is a number of industries.

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 4, 2019, at 5:03 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:
> 
> On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
> > Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of
> > portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios.
> > They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts.
> 
> If that's the design philosophy, limit the power output to 60 W PEP.
> 
> Elecraft already have *two* other 12V capable radios - the KX2 and KX3 -
> of one doesn't count the K2.  *WHY* create another dirty 12V radio
> ("active predistortion" is not the solution) when one can have a clean
> 60W radio at 12V or a clean 200W radio at 40V?
> 
> Build a DC-DC supply for the 40V PA stage if one wants to run it from
> an automobile electrical system (or install a separate 48V alternator,
> regulator and battery specifically for the PA stage).
> 
> Increasing transmit IMD by a factor of 40 just to operate the radio
> at 100 W PEP on a 12 battery is unconscionable given today's state
> of the art.  It was different when 48V transistors/FETs were not
> available but that ship sailed almost 20 years ago.
> 
> 73,
> 
>   ... Joe, W4TV
> 
> 
>> On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
>> Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of 
>> portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios. They're 
>> lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts. Lots of other 
>> manufacturers love giant, heavy rigs. Elecraft doesn't.
>> 73,
>> Scott N9AA
>>> On 11/4/19 3:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
>>> 
>>> I agree completely with all of that, but with the discontinuance of the K3s 
>>> it seems that Elecraft doesn't really consider the K4 to be strictly a base 
>>> station rig.  Their continued insistence upon everything being 12 volt 
>>> capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me.
>>> 
>>> 73,
>>> Dave   AB7E
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

Build radios with internal supplies capable of 90V to 250V and the PA's 
running 48 to 60 volts for 100 watt radios.   The continued insistence 
on 12V radios should be limited to mobile or portable type and 
configured radios.


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 11/4/2019 3:31 PM, Graydon (N7RXL) wrote:

I'm grateful they do.  I always run the radio off of a battery, so I don't have 
to ever worry about whether the AC power is on or not.  I like to be able to 
run my radios during a disaster.  It's a lot simpler to connect the radio to 
the battery, than to connect radio to power supply, then to inverter, then to 
battery.



On Nov 4, 2019, at 12:53 PM, David Gilbert  wrote:

?
Their continued insistence upon everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of a 
puzzlement for me.

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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Fred Jensen]

Predecessors to the K3 have already reached the "unobtanium parts" 
stage, K3 probably isn't too far behind. The US military logistics folks 
will do a "lifetime buy" when parts for the airplane or tank are headed 
for obsolete-ness.  The US military never runs out of checks, of course. 
[:-)  I don't think Elecraft is in a position to buy up all the 
soon-to-be-gone components on the market since K3 sales are likely to 
fade significantly with the K4.  My K3 is #642[U], I have upgraded it 
some, but I'm still a little stunned at how long ago it was designed and 
came to market.


73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 11/4/2019 3:07 PM, Buck wrote:
Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 
12V "portable" or "field" version.


k4ia, Buck
K3# 101
Honor Roll  8B DXCC
EasyWayHamBooks.com



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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K4] K4 CW and keying Rise Time

[Tom Doligalski via Elecraft]

Another reason my next rig is the K4!

Sent from my iPad 

> On Nov 4, 2019, at 6:22 PM, N6KR  wrote:
> 
> We went to great lengths to create an ideal sigmoidal (raised cosine) 
> rise/fall characteristic for our CW keying envelope. It is set at 
> approximately 5 ms and will not be shortened for any reason. Elecraft rigs 
> don't click.
> 
> We also ensure that ALC never interferes with the CW keying waveform. During 
> rise and fall, ALC is open-loop, allowing the characteristic curve to be 
> presented to the output stages.
> 
> The result of all this is the narrowest CW keying bandwidth possible 
> consistent with crisp on-the-air sound.
> 
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Dan Atchison via Groups.Io 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I am hoping that the K4, like its predecessor the K3(S), does NOT give a 
>> user the ability to change its CW rise times.
>> 
>> I believe the K3 is designed for a 5ms rise.  Many, if not most, other 
>> manufacturers allow as little as 1ms resulting in CW signals that reach 
>> beyond 1kHz of bandwidth by creating horrible key-clicks.  Indeed, their 
>> "default" values can be too short.  To what end?  Unscrupulous users setting 
>> it so their clicks help keep their run frequency clear?  Terrible to think 
>> that but I have heard some station owners admitting same.
>> 
>> Last weekend's CWSS had many, many horrible key-click stations - some from 
>> notable contesters.  I realize that things other than a CW rise time can 
>> give cause to key-clicks (antenna connections, hot-switching, etc.), but 
>> newer radios shouldn't be the culprit - yet they can be because of 
>> manufacturer's oversight (or under-thought).
>> 
>> I've never heard of a short CW rise time being an advantage other than to 
>> create havoc. There is a happy medium.
>> 
>> Dan - N3ND
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K4] K4 CW and keying Rise Time

[Wayne Burdick]

We went to great lengths to create an ideal sigmoidal (raised cosine) rise/fall 
characteristic for our CW keying envelope. It is set at approximately 5 ms and 
will not be shortened for any reason. Elecraft rigs don't click.

We also ensure that ALC never interferes with the CW keying waveform. During 
rise and fall, ALC is open-loop, allowing the characteristic curve to be 
presented to the output stages.

The result of all this is the narrowest CW keying bandwidth possible consistent 
with crisp on-the-air sound.

73,
Wayne
N6KR



> On Nov 4, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Dan Atchison via Groups.Io 
>  wrote:
> 
> I am hoping that the K4, like its predecessor the K3(S), does NOT give a user 
> the ability to change its CW rise times.  
> 
> I believe the K3 is designed for a 5ms rise.  Many, if not most, other 
> manufacturers allow as little as 1ms resulting in CW signals that reach 
> beyond 1kHz of bandwidth by creating horrible key-clicks.  Indeed, their 
> "default" values can be too short.  To what end?  Unscrupulous users setting 
> it so their clicks help keep their run frequency clear?  Terrible to think 
> that but I have heard some station owners admitting same.
> 
> Last weekend's CWSS had many, many horrible key-click stations - some from 
> notable contesters.  I realize that things other than a CW rise time can give 
> cause to key-clicks (antenna connections, hot-switching, etc.), but newer 
> radios shouldn't be the culprit - yet they can be because of manufacturer's 
> oversight (or under-thought).  
> 
> I've never heard of a short CW rise time being an advantage other than to 
> create havoc. There is a happy medium.
> 
> Dan - N3ND
> 
> 
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> You receive all messages sent to this group.
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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Wayne Burdick]

Hi all,

We've chosen to have the K4 continue to be a field-capable radio, inheriting 
the characteristics that have always made the K3/K3S (and the K2 before it) the 
preferred rig for FD, DXpeditions, and multi-transmitter stations. Thanks to a 
lightweight but rigid internal aluminum frame, the K4 weighs only slightly more 
than the K3/K3S, while integrating in a large LCD in a way that increases width 
by less than 3 inches. (Unlike on many rigs, our front panel includes separate 
optical encoders for VFO A, VFO B, and RIT/XIT.)

Current drain of the K4 is half that of most competing high-performance desktop 
radios, so it can be used with emergency power. At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for 
lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically scales maximum 
power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


> On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Buck  wrote:
> 
> Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V 
> "portable" or "field" version.
> 
> k4ia, Buck
> K3# 101
> Honor Roll  8B DXCC
> EasyWayHamBooks.com


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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Buck]

Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 
12V "portable" or "field" version.


k4ia, Buck
K3# 101
Honor Roll  8B DXCC
EasyWayHamBooks.com

On 11/4/2019 5:02 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
 > Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of
 > portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios.
 > They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts.

If that's the design philosophy, limit the power output to 60 W PEP.

Elecraft already have *two* other 12V capable radios - the KX2 and KX3 -
of one doesn't count the K2.  *WHY* create another dirty 12V radio
("active predistortion" is not the solution) when one can have a clean
60W radio at 12V or a clean 200W radio at 40V?

Build a DC-DC supply for the 40V PA stage if one wants to run it from
an automobile electrical system (or install a separate 48V alternator,
regulator and battery specifically for the PA stage).

Increasing transmit IMD by a factor of 40 just to operate the radio
at 100 W PEP on a 12 battery is unconscionable given today's state
of the art.  It was different when 48V transistors/FETs were not
available but that ship sailed almost 20 years ago.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of 
portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios. 
They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts. Lots of 
other manufacturers love giant, heavy rigs. Elecraft doesn't.


73,
Scott N9AA


On 11/4/19 3:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote:


I agree completely with all of that, but with the discontinuance of 
the K3s it seems that Elecraft doesn't really consider the K4 to be 
strictly a base station rig.  Their continued insistence upon 
everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me.


73,
Dave   AB7E




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Re: [Elecraft] K3: 1 ppm TCXO calibration - Methode 3 - Data sheet missing from ELECRAFT

[Don Wilhelm]

sTef,

Surely you can receive some standard station at a known stable frequency 
and use Method 2.  While WWV is suggested, that method will work with 
any station having a know stable frequency.


Method 3 had been discontinued some time ago.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 11/3/2019 2:20 AM, DM5TU - sTef wrote:

Hi Gang, Hi ELECRAFT,

I own a K3 S/N 3783.

Due to the the discontinuing of the K3 I now ordered the 1 ppm TCXO. All came 
in well as expected, except of one important piece of information.
Referring to my original paper printed K3 manual Rev. D Sept. 2009 page 50 
"Reference Oscillator" there are 3 methods to calibrate the TCXO.

Using the mentioned "Method 3 (1 ppm TCXO option)" the manufacture delivers a 
data sheet which has to be used to calibrate the 1 ppm TCXO.

But there is no data sheet delivered by ELECRAFT.
Methode 1 und 2 are NO sophisticated ways for me to calibrate such a 1 ppm TCXO.

Two questions, please:

1. Can someone from ELECRAFT please give me an explanation on that issue?
2. Would the calibration of the 1 ppm TCXO be obsolet when installing the 
external reference option K3EXREF?


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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
> Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of
> portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios.
> They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts.

If that's the design philosophy, limit the power output to 60 W PEP.

Elecraft already have *two* other 12V capable radios - the KX2 and KX3 -
of one doesn't count the K2.  *WHY* create another dirty 12V radio
("active predistortion" is not the solution) when one can have a clean
60W radio at 12V or a clean 200W radio at 40V?

Build a DC-DC supply for the 40V PA stage if one wants to run it from
an automobile electrical system (or install a separate 48V alternator,
regulator and battery specifically for the PA stage).

Increasing transmit IMD by a factor of 40 just to operate the radio
at 100 W PEP on a 12 battery is unconscionable given today's state
of the art.  It was different when 48V transistors/FETs were not
available but that ship sailed almost 20 years ago.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of 
portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios. 
They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts. Lots of other 
manufacturers love giant, heavy rigs. Elecraft doesn't.


73,
Scott N9AA


On 11/4/19 3:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote:


I agree completely with all of that, but with the discontinuance of 
the K3s it seems that Elecraft doesn't really consider the K4 to be 
strictly a base station rig.  Their continued insistence upon 
everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me.


73,
Dave   AB7E




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[Elecraft] K2/100 Power Measurements

[Holger Doerschel]

Hi,

after I finally installed the KAF2 module in my K2/100 05775, it was 
time to do a complete alignment and I ran into this old problem again.


The output power at 160 m is 100 W. And drops from band to band to 80 W.

Now I have adjusted the KPA100 to 10m. Now I have there 100 W but then 
on 160 m 120 W.


Measured with an LP-100A and dummy load. SWR is fine!

It looks as if the whole power measurement shows a certain skewness.

Any hint?

73s, Holger DL9HDA

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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Scott Manthe]

Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of 
portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios. 
They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts. Lots of other 
manufacturers love giant, heavy rigs. Elecraft doesn't.


73,
Scott N9AA


On 11/4/19 3:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote:


I agree completely with all of that, but with the discontinuance of 
the K3s it seems that Elecraft doesn't really consider the K4 to be 
strictly a base station rig.  Their continued insistence upon 
everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me.


73,
Dave   AB7E




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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Graydon (N7RXL)]

I'm grateful they do.  I always run the radio off of a battery, so I don't have 
to ever worry about whether the AC power is on or not.  I like to be able to 
run my radios during a disaster.  It's a lot simpler to connect the radio to 
the battery, than to connect radio to power supply, then to inverter, then to 
battery.


> On Nov 4, 2019, at 12:53 PM, David Gilbert  wrote:
> 
> ?
> Their continued insistence upon everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of 
> a puzzlement for me.

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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Rick Bates (WA6NHC)]

Perhaps since that is the standard voltage for cars, trucks, RVs and other 
vehicles. 

I run my power supplies at 14.2 v to be as clean as possible. 

Rick NK7I

Smell Czech correction happens

> On Nov 4, 2019, at 12:53 PM, David Gilbert  wrote:
> 
> 
> Their continued insistence upon everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of 
> a puzzlement for me.
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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[David Gilbert]

I agree completely with all of that, but with the discontinuance of the 
K3s it seems that Elecraft doesn't really consider the K4 to be strictly 
a base station rig.  Their continued insistence upon everything being 12 
volt capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me.


73,
Dave   AB7E


On 11/4/2019 1:37 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:



The issue is that 12V transistors are simply not capable of providing
the "clean" voltage swings necessary to generate 100 - 120W peak power.

A typical transistor/FET has a series output impedance of around 1 - 1.5
Ohms.  Thus if the peak current is ~10A per device, the transistor is
operating from cut-off to saturated - with the unavoidable distortion
(clipping/saturation) at each end of that range.

Simply put, insistence on more than about 60 W PEP from a pair of 12V
devices is *asking for IMD* and "active predistortion" only masks that
issue with a significant cost in complexity and DSP hardware.

Equipment designers should give up on 12V devices for "base station"
radios and go to 48V devices - even at 200 W PEP output levels. The
designers should stick to 60 W output for 12V devices.  That level is
more than enough to drive an amplifier in the  KPA-500 class to rated
output and close (if not sufficient) for even a KPA-1500 and can be
improved, if necessary, with much less complex precorrection systems.

Redesigned with bias levels and transformers optimized for the lower
power levels, perhaps with increased negative feedback, the K3/K3S
could exhibit *much* - at least 10 dB - better IMD at 50 - 60 W PEP
output (although efficiency would probably suffer for those who just
absolutely need to run the rig from a 12V battery pack on a picnic
table).

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 2019-11-04 10:48 AM, Bill Johnson wrote:
Seems most transmitters are in the same boat using solid state 

> transmitters/amplifiers, vs. tubes.

The issue is that 12V transistors are simply not capable of providing
the "clean" voltage swings necessary to generate 100 - 120W peak power.

A typical transistor/FET has a series output impedance of around 1 - 1.5
Ohms.  Thus if the peak current is ~10A per device, the transistor is
operating from cut-off to saturated - with the unavoidable distortion
(clipping/saturation) at each end of that range.

Simply put, insistence on more than about 60 W PEP from a pair of 12V
devices is *asking for IMD* and "active predistortion" only masks that
issue with a significant cost in complexity and DSP hardware.

Equipment designers should give up on 12V devices for "base station"
radios and go to 48V devices - even at 200 W PEP output levels.  The
designers should stick to 60 W output for 12V devices.  That level is
more than enough to drive an amplifier in the  KPA-500 class to rated
output and close (if not sufficient) for even a KPA-1500 and can be
improved, if necessary, with much less complex precorrection systems.

Redesigned with bias levels and transformers optimized for the lower
power levels, perhaps with increased negative feedback, the K3/K3S
could exhibit *much* - at least 10 dB - better IMD at 50 - 60 W PEP
output (although efficiency would probably suffer for those who just
absolutely need to run the rig from a 12V battery pack on a picnic
table).

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2019-11-04 10:48 AM, Bill Johnson wrote:

Thank you, Bob.  Rob, clarified to me.  Seems most transmitters are in the same 
boat using solid state transmitters/amplifiers, vs. tubes.

73,
Bill
K9YEQ





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[Elecraft] K4 CW and keying Rise Time

[Dan Atchison via Elecraft]

I am hoping that the K4, like its predecessor the K3(S), does _NOT_ give 
a user the ability to change its CW rise times.


I believe the K3 is designed for a 5ms rise.  Many, if not most, other 
manufacturers allow as little as 1ms resulting in CW signals that reach 
beyond 1kHz of bandwidth by creating horrible key-clicks.  Indeed, their 
"default" values can be too short. To what end?  Unscrupulous users 
setting it so their clicks help keep their run frequency clear?  
Terrible to think that but I have heard some station owners admitting same.


Last weekend's CWSS had many, many horrible key-click stations - some 
from notable contesters.  I realize that things other than a CW rise 
time can give cause to key-clicks (antenna connections, hot-switching, 
etc.), but newer radios shouldn't be the culprit - yet they can be 
because of manufacturer's oversight (or under-thought).


I've never heard of a short CW rise time being an advantage other than 
to create havoc. There is a happy medium.


Dan - N3ND


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[Elecraft] K4 bandwidth requirements for remote

[Dennis Ashworth]

I operate remotely with a K3/KPA1500 via the RemoteRig boxes. Internet 
bandwidth on the RF end is great, but as we travel, the operator end is often 
quite marginal. It appears the K4 will be sharing considerable information 
between the RF and Op end over the internet connection. Is there a method 
within the K4 to (de)select features or shed loads in situations where internet 
bandwidth is restricted? 

73
Dennis K7FL 
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Re: [Elecraft] (OT) Ca Fires

[Edward R Cole]

Wayne has described the issues with susceptibleness to wildfire, well.

In the last 100 years (or so) wildfire has been suppressed by man 
thus providing an increase in "fuel" growth.  Only in the last few 
years have forest scientist and managers modified this to allow 
natural fire to correct the issue.  BTW this betters the environment 
providing food for many species.  So even hunters are realizing the benefit.


The cited paper should give one a good perspective on this topic 
though it left out the spruce bark beetle invasion in Alaska.  Wild 
fire is a normal occurrence up here.


This summer a 160,000 acre fire burned about 50-miles east of me and 
closed traffic on the only road from the Kenai Peninsula to Anchorage 
with huge impact on truck traffic and tourists.  It also burned the 
high voltage intertie from Bradley Lake Dam to regions in Anchorage 
and north which supplies that low price power for a significant part 
of AK.  Fortunately most of the burned area was Nat'l forest with 
little human occupancy (unlike the situation in CA).


We've improved the fire situation around our home quite a lot by 
taking down trees close to the house and converting brush land to 
lawn.  We have just under 2 acres which is backed by wild forest land 
to the south.  FD even took out about five tall spruce along the road 
right-of-way for free.


My wife used to live in Simi Valley so well aware of the area 
impacted in SoCal.  I lived on the beach, valley, desert, and 
foothill area of LA (long ago).


73, Ed - KL7UW
  http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  dubus...@gmail.com 


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[Elecraft] Fwd: (OT) Ca Fires

[Rick Bates (WA6NHC)]

Plus every time trimming or thinning is required, homeowner and legal processes 
(including court time in some cases) the utility (not just PG or SCE) must 
follow, take an inordinate amount of time and resources thanks to 
‘environmental’ groups failing to realize it is a renewable resource and a fact 
of living within a wildland urban interface (WUI).

It doesn’t have to be moonscaped, there are methods to manage forests and allow 
safe access for all, including utilities while lowering the fire risk.  

So we can also be more safe while operating our Elecraft products in the woods 
or at home too. ;-)

Rick NK7I  <<<—— was wa6nhc

Smell Czech corrections are inevitable

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Wayne Burdick 
> Date: November 4, 2019 at 8:50:38 AM PST
> To: "Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT" 
> Cc: Elecraft Reflector 
> Subject: [Elecraft] (OT) Ca Fires
> 
> There are at least three factors making fires both more intense and more 
> frequent in recent years:
> 
> 1. Our power companies (including PG) have not been diligent about clearing 
> trees away from residential and HV lines. In my own neighborhood I've spotted 
> many houses with power feeds that are intertwined with tree branches. When I 
> do, I alert the home owners to the existence of a hotline for PG trimming 
> service. 
> 
> 2. Due to either negligence or budget problems, they're not replacing old 
> equipment fast enough. Like gas infrastructure, there are transmission towers 
> and poles 50 to 100 years old in active service.
> 
> 3. Trees in California (and in the west, generally) have seen rapid increases 
> in die-offs due to extended drought, as well as bark beetles, sudden oak 
> death (SOD) and other infections. I travel around California often, and 
> everywhere I go I see patches of brown, dead trees in what used to be 
> pristine forest. 
> 
> Historically, bark beetle larvae were suppressed by winter freezes. But 
> average temperatures have been steadily rising. (First-hand experience: When 
> we moved to Belmont 25 years ago, we used to have a couple of days every 
> winter with lows below 30 degrees. Over the past three years the lowest I've 
> seen was 39.) As far as trees are concerned, it only takes a couple of 
> degrees to shift the balance. The larvae now survive most winters and 
> reproduce furiously, eating everything in sight. They're also able to migrate 
> to higher elevations, getting into more stands of trees.
> 
> Information on this phenomenon abounds, but one particularly good summary, 
> from Yale, can be found here:
> 
>
> https://e360.yale.edu/features/small-pests-big-problems-the-global-spread-of-bark-beetles
> 
> Of course we're used to disasters both man-made and natural in CA, and still 
> we persist  :)
> 
> Wayne
> N6KR
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 8:20 AM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> All public companies operate to benefit the investors/shareholders.
>> 
>> That means balancing dividends and profits against things that may impact 
>> their bottom line like destroying customer assets and legal threats.
>> 
>> SCE is no different, but they went more toward safety as a way to maximize 
>> shareholder value.  Safe, happy customers with homes and assets pay their 
>> bills better than dead or burned-out ones.
>> 
>> 73 -- Lynn
>> 
>>> On 11/3/2019 5:12 PM, Wes wrote:
>>> I'm shocked to hear that PG would actually think to pay dividends to 
>>> investors who put their money at risk.  The government of CA should put a 
>>> stop to this capitalist idea. and turn the management over to the MVD or 
>>> the bullet train people.
>>> Wes  N7WS
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Wayne Burdick]

Note the TX SAMPLE input on the rear panel, clearly shown in the product 
brochure :)

Wayne
N6KR


> On Nov 4, 2019, at 8:29 AM, Dan Atchison via Elecraft 
>  wrote:
> 
> Yea!?? I've been waiting for this announcement!?? Way to go Elecraft!
> 
> On 11/4/2019 11:13 AM, Grant Youngman wrote:
>> Well, that???s very good news.  Unless I???ve missed it, this is first note 
>> I've seen that confirms predistortion corrections in the K4.
>> 
>> Grant NQ5T
>> 
>>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 10:58 AM, Wayne Burdick  wrote:
>>> 
>>> This is why the K4 (and a small number of other transceivers) include 
>>> "active predistortion" capability in hardware. It adapts the drive power to 
>>> the response curve of the PA stage. The K4 also has an TX sample input to 
>>> include an external amplifier in the correction loop. (The KPA1500 has a TX 
>>> sample output for this purpose.)
>>> 
>>> We expect to post numbers significantly better than the industry's typical 
>>> 3rd-order intermod performance at 100 W, which stands at about -30 dBc 
>>> (ARRL method).
>>> 
>>> 73,
>>> Wayne
>>> N6KR
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] (OT) Ca Fires

[Wayne Burdick]

There are at least three factors making fires both more intense and more 
frequent in recent years: 

1. Our power companies (including PG) have not been diligent about clearing 
trees away from residential and HV lines. In my own neighborhood I've spotted 
many houses with power feeds that are intertwined with tree branches. When I 
do, I alert the home owners to the existence of a hotline for PG trimming 
service. 

2. Due to either negligence or budget problems, they're not replacing old 
equipment fast enough. Like gas infrastructure, there are transmission towers 
and poles 50 to 100 years old in active service.

3. Trees in California (and in the west, generally) have seen rapid increases 
in die-offs due to extended drought, as well as bark beetles, sudden oak death 
(SOD) and other infections. I travel around California often, and everywhere I 
go I see patches of brown, dead trees in what used to be pristine forest. 

Historically, bark beetle larvae were suppressed by winter freezes. But average 
temperatures have been steadily rising. (First-hand experience: When we moved 
to Belmont 25 years ago, we used to have a couple of days every winter with 
lows below 30 degrees. Over the past three years the lowest I've seen was 39.) 
As far as trees are concerned, it only takes a couple of degrees to shift the 
balance. The larvae now survive most winters and reproduce furiously, eating 
everything in sight. They're also able to migrate to higher elevations, getting 
into more stands of trees.

Information on this phenomenon abounds, but one particularly good summary, from 
Yale, can be found here:


https://e360.yale.edu/features/small-pests-big-problems-the-global-spread-of-bark-beetles

Of course we're used to disasters both man-made and natural in CA, and still we 
persist  :)

Wayne
N6KR



> On Nov 4, 2019, at 8:20 AM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT 
>  wrote:
> 
> All public companies operate to benefit the investors/shareholders.
> 
> That means balancing dividends and profits against things that may impact 
> their bottom line like destroying customer assets and legal threats.
> 
> SCE is no different, but they went more toward safety as a way to maximize 
> shareholder value.  Safe, happy customers with homes and assets pay their 
> bills better than dead or burned-out ones.
> 
> 73 -- Lynn
> 
> On 11/3/2019 5:12 PM, Wes wrote:
>> I'm shocked to hear that PG would actually think to pay dividends to 
>> investors who put their money at risk.  The government of CA should put a 
>> stop to this capitalist idea. and turn the management over to the MVD or the 
>> bullet train people.
>> Wes  N7WS
> 




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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Dan Atchison via Elecraft]

Yea!?? I've been waiting for this announcement!?? Way to go Elecraft!

On 11/4/2019 11:13 AM, Grant Youngman wrote:

Well, that???s very good news.  Unless I???ve missed it, this is first note 
I've seen that confirms predistortion corrections in the K4.

Grant NQ5T


On Nov 4, 2019, at 10:58 AM, Wayne Burdick  wrote:

This is why the K4 (and a small number of other transceivers) include "active 
predistortion" capability in hardware. It adapts the drive power to the response 
curve of the PA stage. The K4 also has an TX sample input to include an external 
amplifier in the correction loop. (The KPA1500 has a TX sample output for this purpose.)

We expect to post numbers significantly better than the industry's typical 
3rd-order intermod performance at 100 W, which stands at about -30 dBc (ARRL 
method).

73,
Wayne
N6KR



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Re: [Elecraft] (OT) Ca Fires

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

All public companies operate to benefit the investors/shareholders.

That means balancing dividends and profits against things that may 
impact their bottom line like destroying customer assets and legal threats.


SCE is no different, but they went more toward safety as a way to 
maximize shareholder value.  Safe, happy customers with homes and assets 
pay their bills better than dead or burned-out ones.


73 -- Lynn

On 11/3/2019 5:12 PM, Wes wrote:
I'm shocked to hear that PG would actually think to pay dividends to 
investors who put their money at risk.  The government of CA should put 
a stop to this capitalist idea. and turn the management over to the MVD 
or the bullet train people.


Wes  N7WS

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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Wayne Burdick]

The hardware is in place. Some firmware is required that will be phased in when 
it's ready.

Wayne


> On Nov 4, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Grant Youngman  wrote:
> 
> Well, that’s very good news.  Unless I’ve missed it, this is first note I've 
> seen that confirms predistortion corrections in the K4.
> 
> Grant NQ5T
> 
>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 10:58 AM, Wayne Burdick  wrote:
>> 
>> This is why the K4 (and a small number of other transceivers) include 
>> "active predistortion" capability in hardware. It adapts the drive power to 
>> the response curve of the PA stage. The K4 also has an TX sample input to 
>> include an external amplifier in the correction loop. (The KPA1500 has a TX 
>> sample output for this purpose.)
>> 
>> We expect to post numbers significantly better than the industry's typical 
>> 3rd-order intermod performance at 100 W, which stands at about -30 dBc (ARRL 
>> method).
>> 
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>> 
>> 
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Grant Youngman]

Well, that’s very good news.  Unless I’ve missed it, this is first note I've 
seen that confirms predistortion corrections in the K4.

Grant NQ5T

> On Nov 4, 2019, at 10:58 AM, Wayne Burdick  wrote:
> 
> This is why the K4 (and a small number of other transceivers) include "active 
> predistortion" capability in hardware. It adapts the drive power to the 
> response curve of the PA stage. The K4 also has an TX sample input to include 
> an external amplifier in the correction loop. (The KPA1500 has a TX sample 
> output for this purpose.)
> 
> We expect to post numbers significantly better than the industry's typical 
> 3rd-order intermod performance at 100 W, which stands at about -30 dBc (ARRL 
> method).
> 
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
> 
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Wayne Burdick]

This is why the K4 (and a small number of other transceivers) include "active 
predistortion" capability in hardware. It adapts the drive power to the 
response curve of the PA stage. The K4 also has an TX sample input to include 
an external amplifier in the correction loop. (The KPA1500 has a TX sample 
output for this purpose.)

We expect to post numbers significantly better than the industry's typical 
3rd-order intermod performance at 100 W, which stands at about -30 dBc (ARRL 
method).

73,
Wayne
N6KR


> On Nov 4, 2019, at 7:48 AM, Bill Johnson  wrote:
> 
> Thank you, Bob.  Rob, clarified to me.  Seems most transmitters are in the 
> same boat using solid state transmitters/amplifiers, vs. tubes.  
> 
> 73,
> Bill
> K9YEQ
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
> Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX
> Sent: Sunday, November 3, 2019 7:25 PM
> To: Elecraft Reflector 
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
> 
> I suppose I am the "Bob" you refer to.   The section in Rob's article on 
> Odd-Order Intermodulation he clearly explains "worse".
> 
> Our receivers have gotten much better over the years but unfortunately our 
> transmitters and amplifiers have gotten worse. To quantify, the ARRL 
> published a compendium of distortion products of linear amplifiers in 1997.  
> The third order distortion was in the 40 and 50 dB PEP range. In 2019 an ARRL 
> review of solid state legal limit amplifiers reported the third order 
> distortion was only down 30 dB.  This is a 10 to 20 dB degradation from 1997 
> to 2019.I'd call this "worse".
> 
> 73
> 
> Bob, K4TAX
> 
> On 11/3/2019 6:56 PM, Bill K9YEQ wrote:
>> 
>> “worse” seems a bit much when looking at the actual levels.  Bob, did 
>> you mean something else?  I know this is semantics….
>> 
>> 73,
>> 
>> Bill
>> 
>> K9YEQ



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Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

[Bill Johnson]

Thank you, Bob.  Rob, clarified to me.  Seems most transmitters are in the same 
boat using solid state transmitters/amplifiers, vs. tubes.  

73,
Bill
K9YEQ


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX
Sent: Sunday, November 3, 2019 7:25 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued

I suppose I am the "Bob" you refer to.   The section in Rob's article on 
Odd-Order Intermodulation he clearly explains "worse".

Our receivers have gotten much better over the years but unfortunately our 
transmitters and amplifiers have gotten worse. To quantify, the ARRL published 
a compendium of distortion products of linear amplifiers in 1997.  The third 
order distortion was in the 40 and 50 dB PEP range. In 2019 an ARRL review of 
solid state legal limit amplifiers reported the third order distortion was only 
down 30 dB.  This is a 10 to 20 dB degradation from 1997 to 2019.    I'd call 
this "worse".

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 11/3/2019 6:56 PM, Bill K9YEQ wrote:
>
> “worse” seems a bit much when looking at the actual levels.  Bob, did 
> you mean something else?  I know this is semantics….
>
> 73,
>
> Bill
>
> K9YEQ
>
> https://wrj-tech.com/
>
> *From:*elecraft...@groups.io  *On Behalf Of 
> *Rob Sherwood
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 3, 2019 5:16 PM
> *To:* elecraft...@groups.io
> *Subject:* Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
>
> The K3S is excellent in respect to transmit composite noise. Transmit 
> IMD, on the other hand, is quite different at various power levels.
> The sweet spot is around 35 watts, but much worse at 12 watts and 100 
> watts.  Here is composite noise data.  Hopefully the formatting will 
> hold up.
>
> Rob, NC0B
>
> Transmit Composite Noise Rig Comparisons 20 meters values in dBc/Hz
>
> Rig @ 100 watts    2 kHz offset    10 kHz offset
> 20 kHz offset  100 kHz offset
>
> K3S -141   n/a -143
>
> FTdx-101D -133   -137 -138   
> -141
>
> IC-7851 -129   n/a -138
>
> IC-7610 -128   -130   -142
>
> Flex 6400 -122   -127   -139
>
> IC-7300 -121   -121   -124
>
> FTdx-3000 -120   n/a -121
>
> TS-890S     -116 -119
> -127   -139
>
> Rig @ 30 watts   2 kHz offset    10 kHz offset  
> 20 kHz offset  100 kHz offset
>
> FTdx-101D -129   -134 -135   
> -137
>
> K3S -132   n/a -140
>
> IC-7851 -123   n/a -133
>
> IC-7610 -122   -124   -127
>
> Flex 6400 -120   -125 -137
>
> FTdx-3000 -117   n/a -117
>
> TS-890S     -112 -115
> -124   -135
>
> IC-7300 -110   -109   -116
>
> *From:*elecraft...@groups.io  
> [mailto:elecraft...@groups.io] *On Behalf Of *Wes
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 03, 2019 10:32 AM
> *To:* elecraft...@groups.io 
> *Subject:* Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
>
> If TX IMD is the issue, K3 and K3S transmitters are a real mixed bag. 
> My old K3 at 30 watts is fantastic, with IMD at all frequencies better 
> than -40 dBc (ARRL method).  The same radio at 10W is the worst of my 
> two radios, except at 24 MHz where the K3 and K3S tie at -22 dBc.
>
> It's been hard to keep up with these measurements since the KLPA3A in 
> the K3S has been replaced twice and the KPA3A is IIRC, on the fourth 
> version.
>
> Wes  N7WS
>
> On 11/3/2019 8:16 AM, Martin Sole wrote:
>
> I suspect the quality of the transmitter particularly with regard
> to its composite noise spectrum to be a large player. Some radios
> with high end receiver performance have rudimentary (I'm being
> kind) transmitter composite noise performance.
>
> See what NK7Z, NC0B and K9YC have written about this.
>
>
> Martin, HS0ZED
>
> On 03/11/2019 21:30, Mark Morin wrote:
>
> My experience is that the type of rig does make a difference
> for close coexistence. We’ve found on DxPeditions that an
> upgraded K3 with KPA500 and a Kenwood TS-590s also with
> KPA500, can coexist quite well with antennas about 300 ft
> apart. On most bands, we can operate SSB and CW simultaneously
> with tolerable QRM. Other times we have tried different
> high-end rigs in similar setup and found that opposite end of
> same-band operation was nearly impossible due to QRM. I
> suspect it’s mostly the receivers that makes the difference.
>
>

Re: [Elecraft] K4 software

[Graziano Roccon (IW2NOY)]

Hello,

in the past (2017) i adapted KCOMM for the K3s, maybe i will have the 
opportunity to update KCOMM again for the K4 but... at this moment a K4 
is missing in my shack :-(
I dont' know if Carlo Bianconi will give me the opportunity to test the 
K4.


Thanks, 73's de IW2NOY

[Link to the page for  KCOMM K3s ready: 
http://www.iw2noy.it/index.php?id=86 ]



Il 03/11/2019 00:11 Bruce Wade ha scritto:

Will the K4 run the KCOMM app? If not what will?
Tnx
Bruce Wade
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Re: [Elecraft] K4 software

[Graziano Roccon (IW2NOY)]

Hello,

in the past (2017) i adapted KCOMM for the K3s, maybe i will have the 
opportunity to update KCOMM again for the K4 but... at this moment a K4 
is missing in my shack :-(
I dont' know if Carlo Bianconi will give me the opportunity to test the 
K4.


Thanks, 73's de IW2NOY

[Link to the page for  KCOMM K3s ready: 
http://www.iw2noy.it/index.php?id=86 ]




Il 03/11/2019 00:11 Bruce Wade ha scritto:

Will the K4 run the KCOMM app? If not what will?
Tnx
Bruce Wade
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Re: [Elecraft] (OT) Ca Fires

[JP Douglas]

I run a 12 volt Solar system, 4 100 watt panels hooked up to 4 6 volt Golf Cart 
batteries. I have 12 volt LED lights (look like a regular lightbulb) all over 
the QTH, run router, wifi, phone, shack all without an inverter. If you end up 
losing the things in your fridge we’re talking what, $100, so what. We’re in 
Maine so we have wood burning stove in the basement you can even cook with if 
need be.
Loose power all the time, no big deal...
73 from Ecuador where we’re on holiday w/my HF radio...
Jose Douglas KB1TCD (HC2/KB1TCD)

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 3, 2019, at 11:53 AM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT 
>  wrote:
> 
> Yes, Jim, I do realize that a lot of the problem is PG making poor choices 
> to benefit investors and not provide safe power.  They do the same with 
> natural gas.
> 
> SCE is better, but they're hardening their grid, fixing the problems you 
> mentioned, and we've had lots of maintenance outages to replace poles.
> 
> You mention generators, and that makes my point:
> 
> The problem is manageable.  A small generator can solve a lot of problems at 
> a fairly low cost.
> 
> I don't need much power for lighting, and have a number of battery powered 
> camping lamps that work great.  Candles too.
> 
> My internet connection and servers are mission critical to me, but that's 80 
> watts total.
> 
> If it's below freezing, I want to be able to run the furnace at least part 
> time.
> 
> My refrigerator and freezer are important, but not critical.
> 
> I can get by with about 2kw.  I think the Ryobi 2300 I have was $600.
> 
> I can go a couple of hours without power easily before I need to start 
> thinking about the generator.
> 
> Siphoning gas from the cars works -- and has been tested, new cars are harder 
> to tap for gas.
> 
> 73 -- Lynn
> 
>> On 11/3/2019 12:04 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
>> As to Elecraft - many of their employees live in areas that WERE affected by 
>> the power shutoffs. Some are my neighbors. Our generators have gotten a lot 
>> of running time in the past week or so.
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft Digest, Vol 187, Issue 3

[Dave B via Elecraft]

Any persistent lubrication.

"Copper slip" graphite grease, whatever.  Stainless is not ideal in an
outside situation where dirt can over time get into the threads, that
then result in the metal "galling" (partial seizing/self welding) when
you try to move it.

Regular BZP or Galvanised types would be stronger and last longer with
less chance of seizing up, but I'd also use "Copper Slip" or a smear of
graphite loaded grease on them too.   Even plain un-plated steel types
will last OK with such pre-treatment and annual maintenance treatment.

73.

Dave G0WBX



On 02/11/2019 19:21, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:
> From: Richard 
> To: Elecraft Reflector 
> Subject: [Elecraft] Turnbuckle Threads
> Message-ID: <4021045d-bf83-4ce6-b498-9b5502c67...@comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> For stainless steel/stainless steel turnbuckles being used on guys ropes, 
> what?s the best stuff with which to protect the threads?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Richard Kunc - W4KBX

-- 
Created on and sent from a Unix like PC running and using free and open source 
software:

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