Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
Wayne I bought a K3S, mainly to use as a transverter driver for which it is excellent. The transverter output is super clean. I also wanted to use it on 6m but there is not any power level where the TX IMD is anywhere near acceptable and it is much worse than an IC7300! I have engaged with your support team but got no useful help. I was advised to run test mode with an external PA! Basically the K3S PA is unusable for SSB on 6m for anyone with a conscience. I have confirmed the performance with 2 other K3S radios, they are all very poor. Its a good job that people only use FT8 on 6m these days! As for the SSB contests I will just have to pretend that things are ok I sincerely hope that you pay close attention to 6m TX IMD with the K4 because the K3S completely fails in this regard. 73 Conrad PA5Y From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net on behalf of Wayne Burdick Sent: 05 November 2019 02:31 To: Joe Subich, W4TV Cc: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued Joe, Not everyone uses an amp with their 100-W rig (in fact, far less than half). Like other 100-W radios that are compatible with field use, the K3/K3S/K4 must make ~100 W from a 12-15 V mobile, solar, or battery supply. But it also has to be efficient at this power level. If you only need amp drive power, the IMD improves. And the K4 is capable of predistortion, which means that at amp drive levels, IMD performance should be truly outstanding. The transformer ratio is 16:1, the same as most other "12 V capable" 100 W transceivers. If you go to 25:1, drain current goes way up, precluding the use of standard 20/25-A power supplies and making the radio a lot less portable. 73, Wayne N6KR > On Nov 4, 2019, at 4:45 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > > On 2019-11-04 6:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: >> At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and >> now, the K4) automatically scales maximum power output based on >> supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V. > > It is a shame that the maximum power output along with bias levels and > transformer ratios were not selected for lowest obtainable IMD. Output > power (100 W) became the only specification that counted even though > 60 W would have been enough to drive the KPA-500/KPA-1500 with truly > outstanding IMD. > > 73, > > ... Joe, W4TV > > > On 2019-11-04 6:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: >> Hi all, >> We've chosen to have the K4 continue to be a field-capable radio, inheriting >> the characteristics that have always made the K3/K3S (and the K2 before it) >> the preferred rig for FD, DXpeditions, and multi-transmitter stations. >> Thanks to a lightweight but rigid internal aluminum frame, the K4 weighs >> only slightly more than the K3/K3S, while integrating in a large LCD in a >> way that increases width by less than 3 inches. (Unlike on many rigs, our >> front panel includes separate optical encoders for VFO A, VFO B, and >> RIT/XIT.) >> Current drain of the K4 is half that of most competing high-performance >> desktop radios, so it can be used with emergency power. At home, use 13.8 to >> 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically >> scales maximum power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as >> low as 11 V. >> 73, >> Wayne >> N6KR >>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Buck wrote: >>> >>> Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V >>> "portable" or "field" version. >>> >>> k4ia, Buck >>> K3# 101 >>> Honor Roll 8B DXCC >>> EasyWayHamBooks.com >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> Message delivered to li...@subich.com > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to n...@elecraft.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
Folks, we're way over the single topic posting limit here, and the discussion has drifted way off the original topic into transmitter design and other topics. Lets close this thread now in the interest of relieving our readers of email overload. Also, please do not cross post to multiple lists as this makes it impossible to moderate replies from the other list. 73, Eric Moderator, when I can pull away from other duties at Elecraft ;-) elecraft.com _..._ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
I've been in aviation ground comms pretty much my whole working life, now about 43 years, and apart from the odd mobile radio just about every bit of kit runs off regular single phase AC from 100-250 volts 50/60Hz plus DC at nominally 24 volts, these days often specified as 28 volts in line with solid state PA device requirements. Pretty much every GATR or TRACON site that provides a DC supply does so either at -48 volts for the phone line (and voice switching) systems or 24/28 volts for the comms radios often deriving the 24 from the 48 volts supply. I recall some airfield navigations aids, ILS/DME that had a nominal 12 volt backup supply but I think that was only some oddball stuff, certainly all the equipment I have actually worked on has been 24/28 volt. Interestingly Icom makes a vehicle radio for air band use 118-137MHz about 5 watts carrier so around 20 watts pep. This radio is both 13.8 and 28 volts capable. It senses when the supply gets about about 14-15 volt and switches in a buck converter (I guess). Other than small cars and pick-up trucks most airfield vehicles are also 24 volt. I think from a ham shack perspective, going to 24 as opposed to 12 volts should not be a big deal. Two batteries in series instead of one. Charging in parallel or series as you like. In those same comm site systems most of the DC supplies are provided by banks of 2 volt cells all racked together and feeding either a direct DC connection to equipment or to a UPS. Twice the voltage means half the current with the added benefit of half the IxR losses in any given cable. Given the impact of solar energy systems maybe not too long before houses get built with dedicated battery rooms :) So far as amateur radio design goes a lot of the top line, for the day, AC mains powered base station radios have used 24/28 volt final stages, TS930/940/950, IC781, FT1000. I'm sure their modern equivalents do the same. Though it does seem that the AC powered base station radio is much less common these days, I attribute that less to the wishes of the market and more the costs/demands of testing and certification in our more risk averse world. I think it would be a reasonable design goal to have a radio that has low level 10 watt output from on the base unit, with a plug in 100 watt 12 volts powered PA unit or an equally plug in 100 or 200 watt 24 or 48 volt PA, use of which would necessitate a different supply but could likely include on board the down converter for the rest of the radio. I think all of that should be pretty much achievable technically. Not sure if the market would be smart enough to recognise the benefits though. Martin, HS0ZED On 06/11/2019 04:37, lmarion wrote: The FAA still uses 13.6 volt AM around the world, even the Western air defense com is same. The Huge power UPS legacy sytems are part of the same old standard that won't die. leroy ab7ce On 11/4/2019 1:24 PM, Rick Bates (WA6NHC) wrote: Perhaps since that is the standard voltage for cars, trucks, RVs and other vehicles. Commercial communication base-station equipment has been standardized at -48 volts(*) for quite a while and actually needs to use a voltage converter for the odd-ball +12 V or 120V AC equipment that has to be run. (*) -48 volts has been the telephone industry standard since Ma Bell was a teen-ager! 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to hs0...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
The FAA still uses 13.6 volt AM around the world, even the Western air defense com is same. The Huge power UPS legacy sytems are part of the same old standard that won't die. leroy ab7ce On 11/4/2019 1:24 PM, Rick Bates (WA6NHC) wrote: Perhaps since that is the standard voltage for cars, trucks, RVs and other vehicles. Commercial communication base-station equipment has been standardized at -48 volts(*) for quite a while and actually needs to use a voltage converter for the odd-ball +12 V or 120V AC equipment that has to be run. (*) -48 volts has been the telephone industry standard since Ma Bell was a teen-ager! 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
I always used Wilmore supplies to do the various tasks to convert our 48VDC. Also used them on 72VDC equipment and never had one fail. Ed.. AB4IQ -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Phil Kane Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2019 11:19 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued On 11/4/2019 1:24 PM, Rick Bates (WA6NHC) wrote: > Perhaps since that is the standard voltage for cars, trucks, RVs and other vehicles. Commercial communication base-station equipment has been standardized at -48 volts(*) for quite a while and actually needs to use a voltage converter for the odd-ball +12 V or 120V AC equipment that has to be run. (*) -48 volts has been the telephone industry standard since Ma Bell was a teen-ager! 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 >From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to ab...@comcast.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
i’ve been a user of 48 volt gear for decades in my day job but it is not what the average consumer can easily access. Sent from my iPad > On Nov 5, 2019, at 12:19 PM, Phil Kane wrote: > > On 11/4/2019 1:24 PM, Rick Bates (WA6NHC) wrote: > >> Perhaps since that is the standard voltage for cars, trucks, RVs and other >> vehicles. > > Commercial communication base-station equipment has been standardized at > -48 volts(*) for quite a while and actually needs to use a voltage > converter for the odd-ball +12 V or 120V AC equipment that has to be run. > > (*) -48 volts has been the telephone industry standard since Ma Bell was > a teen-ager! > > 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane > Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 > > From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest > Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to w...@w2xj.net > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
There have been a few amateur transceivers made that ran their solid state finals at higher voltages and then had their own internal supplies. But the industry has decided that the "standard" is still "12V". The rigs with the higher voltage just don't take off and induce sales. On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 11:19 AM Phil Kane wrote: > On 11/4/2019 1:24 PM, Rick Bates (WA6NHC) wrote: > > > Perhaps since that is the standard voltage for cars, trucks, RVs and > other vehicles. > > Commercial communication base-station equipment has been standardized at > -48 volts(*) for quite a while and actually needs to use a voltage > converter for the odd-ball +12 V or 120V AC equipment that has to be run. > > (*) -48 volts has been the telephone industry standard since Ma Bell was > a teen-ager! > > 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane > Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 > > From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest > Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to jimk...@gmail.com > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
On 11/4/2019 1:24 PM, Rick Bates (WA6NHC) wrote: > Perhaps since that is the standard voltage for cars, trucks, RVs and other > vehicles. Commercial communication base-station equipment has been standardized at -48 volts(*) for quite a while and actually needs to use a voltage converter for the odd-ball +12 V or 120V AC equipment that has to be run. (*) -48 volts has been the telephone industry standard since Ma Bell was a teen-ager! 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 >From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
the next step would be to get rid of linear amplification. It’s an over 90 year old technique that was originally all but necessary to amplify SSB. New methods employing saturated switching amplification would be much more efficient (90% or more) while having much lower IMD (-80 db or more) and produce a lot less heat all while maintaining 12 volt operation and eliminating the TX D/A converter. Probably some form of RFPWM but there are other options. The wireless data people are all over these technologies as power efficiency in that area is an extreme requirement but because of the frequencies involved this can be a tradeoff against suppressing switching byproducts and require complicated bandpass filters. For HF Ham radio applications only a fairly simple low pass filter would be necessary. A thought for a K4S or K5? Sent from my iPad > On Nov 4, 2019, at 6:21 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: > > Hi all, > > We've chosen to have the K4 continue to be a field-capable radio, inheriting > the characteristics that have always made the K3/K3S (and the K2 before it) > the preferred rig for FD, DXpeditions, and multi-transmitter stations. Thanks > to a lightweight but rigid internal aluminum frame, the K4 weighs only > slightly more than the K3/K3S, while integrating in a large LCD in a way that > increases width by less than 3 inches. (Unlike on many rigs, our front panel > includes separate optical encoders for VFO A, VFO B, and RIT/XIT.) > > Current drain of the K4 is half that of most competing high-performance > desktop radios, so it can be used with emergency power. At home, use 13.8 to > 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically > scales maximum power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as > low as 11 V. > > 73, > Wayne > N6KR > > >> On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Buck wrote: >> >> Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V >> "portable" or "field" version. >> >> k4ia, Buck >> K3# 101 >> Honor Roll 8B DXCC >> EasyWayHamBooks.com > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to w...@w2xj.net > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
Elecraft has made their design decisions for the K4. Since someone suggested running a 100w 12v device at 60w then it occurs to me to obtain 100-120w then run two devices in parallel or push-pull. Should not increase weight or drive requirements by a significant amount. Cost probably under 150%. I bought the K3/10 initially because i mainly operate VHF thru mw. Later I bought a 10w KX3. Then decided on the KXPA100 which either can drive with about 5w for full output thru 24m. Of course the KXPA100 uses 12v devices but a clever ham could build a two device amp, instead. Only on 6m is full 8w drive required for 80w output of the KXPA100. I use the 1mw (nom) transverter interface to drive transverters on 2m and above so output is clean. I have a 1000w linear* for 6m which drives with 11w from the KXPA100 (have to switch on the 3-dB attn on input to get that low). The 1000w amp runs with 48v as do my 2m 1500w and 600w 1296 LDMOS amps. I keep output at start of saturation or lower on all the high power amps. *6m 1000w amp is capable of 1600w 24/7 keydown AM operation on ch.2 TV, so is loafing at 1000w which is the limit of my 48v - 50A PS. 73, Ed - KL7UW http://www.kl7uw.com Dubus-NA Business mail: dubus...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
FWIW, I am betting on the K4 and have fully pre-paid the estimate on the K4D. If it comes out to cost more in the end, so be it. I love my K3 & the K3s because of their wonderful brilliance, how could I not possibly go for the K4 knowing the mentality behind the brand? Personally, I wish I had an iota of the necessary mojo to create such a radio. As I don't, I have faith in those who do. My 2 pence... 73, Gary KA1J > How much money would you like to bet? As much as Eric and Wayne? If > your assertion were true, no one would buy a Flex, or an Icom or a > FTDX-101. Hams love new stuff and there's a reason that Wayne and Eric > are willing to bet their actual money against your virtual money that > lots of ops will want a K4. If you've been following this list, people > have been asking for a replacement for the K3/K3S for a decade. I'm > pretty sure if Elecraft builds it, the customers will come. > > The K4 will likely have a cleaner signal than the K3S due to > predistortion. > > 73, > Scott N9AA > > > On 11/4/19 9:42 PM, David Gilbert wrote: > > > > I don't want to look like I'm beating a dead horse so this will be > > my last comment on the subject, but my point was that I don't think > > very many contest stations or DXpeditions are going to sell their > > K3s rigs to buy a K4 (I don't see a compelling reason for them to do > > so), so I'm not sure how much value there is in it being a 12 volt > > rig even if the price range is similar. If anyone views that > > differently I'd like to hear their reasoning. > > > > And I'd bet a lot of money that most contesters or DXpedition > > operators would be glued to their laptop screens and punching > > keyboard buttons instead of watching the LCD display on the rig. I > > know that I have operated entire major contests without ever > > touching anything except the tuning knob on my K3. Everything else > > I need to do is controllable from N1MM+. > > > > The capability for future features could of course prove me wrong on > > both accounts, but for now it just doesn't seem to me that they > > would likely override the immediate value in having a significantly > > cleaner signal. Clearly Elecraft has made their choice, for better > > or for worse. > > > > Done now. ;) > > > > 73, > > Dave AB7E > > > > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to g...@ka1j.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
How much money would you like to bet? As much as Eric and Wayne? If your assertion were true, no one would buy a Flex, or an Icom or a FTDX-101. Hams love new stuff and there's a reason that Wayne and Eric are willing to bet their actual money against your virtual money that lots of ops will want a K4. If you've been following this list, people have been asking for a replacement for the K3/K3S for a decade. I'm pretty sure if Elecraft builds it, the customers will come. The K4 will likely have a cleaner signal than the K3S due to predistortion. 73, Scott N9AA On 11/4/19 9:42 PM, David Gilbert wrote: I don't want to look like I'm beating a dead horse so this will be my last comment on the subject, but my point was that I don't think very many contest stations or DXpeditions are going to sell their K3s rigs to buy a K4 (I don't see a compelling reason for them to do so), so I'm not sure how much value there is in it being a 12 volt rig even if the price range is similar. If anyone views that differently I'd like to hear their reasoning. And I'd bet a lot of money that most contesters or DXpedition operators would be glued to their laptop screens and punching keyboard buttons instead of watching the LCD display on the rig. I know that I have operated entire major contests without ever touching anything except the tuning knob on my K3. Everything else I need to do is controllable from N1MM+. The capability for future features could of course prove me wrong on both accounts, but for now it just doesn't seem to me that they would likely override the immediate value in having a significantly cleaner signal. Clearly Elecraft has made their choice, for better or for worse. Done now. ;) 73, Dave AB7E __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
I don't want to look like I'm beating a dead horse so this will be my last comment on the subject, but my point was that I don't think very many contest stations or DXpeditions are going to sell their K3s rigs to buy a K4 (I don't see a compelling reason for them to do so), so I'm not sure how much value there is in it being a 12 volt rig even if the price range is similar. If anyone views that differently I'd like to hear their reasoning. And I'd bet a lot of money that most contesters or DXpedition operators would be glued to their laptop screens and punching keyboard buttons instead of watching the LCD display on the rig. I know that I have operated entire major contests without ever touching anything except the tuning knob on my K3. Everything else I need to do is controllable from N1MM+. The capability for future features could of course prove me wrong on both accounts, but for now it just doesn't seem to me that they would likely override the immediate value in having a significantly cleaner signal. Clearly Elecraft has made their choice, for better or for worse. Done now. ;) 73, Dave AB7E On 11/4/2019 6:39 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: Elecraft itself was forged during Field Day. This (and other cases where portability matter) are engrained in our DNA :) A K4 or K4D is actually in a similar price range to K3S stations, as typically configured. And many of these are taken out of the shack, at least historically speaking. The added convenience of a built-in panadapter is of great utility on FD or for DXpeditions. I used the rig last FD and it definitely enhanced my abilities as an operator. Since we also have a lot of expansion capability in software, we'll be able to add features in the future targeted at enhancing operating convenience and efficiency. 73, Wayne N6KR On Nov 4, 2019, at 4:54 PM, David Gilbert wrote: I guess I still don't understand that choice, particularly since the bulk of the new features that separate the K4 from the K3s seem geared more toward fixed station use than portable operation. You could have kept the K3s (which is still a world class rig) for anyone actually needing portable capability while making the K4 a much cleaner rig than it now will be. I'd be surprised if very many DXpeditions or contesters are going to feel the need to upgrade from a K3s to a K4, and if so I'd be interested in hearing why. I'd also bet that the great majority of K4 users will never take their rig outside the house or need to run it off emergency power, yet all of them are now going to have signals at least 10 db less clean than was technically practical. Like it or not, Sherwood's recent QST article applies to Elecraft. Dave AB7E On 11/4/2019 4:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: Hi all, We've chosen to have the K4 continue to be a field-capable radio, inheriting the characteristics that have always made the K3/K3S (and the K2 before it) the preferred rig for FD, DXpeditions, and multi-transmitter stations. Thanks to a lightweight but rigid internal aluminum frame, the K4 weighs only slightly more than the K3/K3S, while integrating in a large LCD in a way that increases width by less than 3 inches. (Unlike on many rigs, our front panel includes separate optical encoders for VFO A, VFO B, and RIT/XIT.) Current drain of the K4 is half that of most competing high-performance desktop radios, so it can be used with emergency power. At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically scales maximum power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V. 73, Wayne N6KR On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Buck wrote: Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V "portable" or "field" version. k4ia, Buck K3# 101 Honor Roll 8B DXCC EasyWayHamBooks.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to xda...@cis-broadband.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to n...@elecraft.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
Elecraft itself was forged during Field Day. This (and other cases where portability matter) are engrained in our DNA :) A K4 or K4D is actually in a similar price range to K3S stations, as typically configured. And many of these are taken out of the shack, at least historically speaking. The added convenience of a built-in panadapter is of great utility on FD or for DXpeditions. I used the rig last FD and it definitely enhanced my abilities as an operator. Since we also have a lot of expansion capability in software, we'll be able to add features in the future targeted at enhancing operating convenience and efficiency. 73, Wayne N6KR > On Nov 4, 2019, at 4:54 PM, David Gilbert wrote: > > > I guess I still don't understand that choice, particularly since the bulk of > the new features that separate the K4 from the K3s seem geared more toward > fixed station use than portable operation. You could have kept the K3s > (which is still a world class rig) for anyone actually needing portable > capability while making the K4 a much cleaner rig than it now will be. I'd > be surprised if very many DXpeditions or contesters are going to feel the > need to upgrade from a K3s to a K4, and if so I'd be interested in hearing > why. I'd also bet that the great majority of K4 users will never take their > rig outside the house or need to run it off emergency power, yet all of them > are now going to have signals at least 10 db less clean than was technically > practical. > > Like it or not, Sherwood's recent QST article applies to Elecraft. > > Dave AB7E > > > > On 11/4/2019 4:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> We've chosen to have the K4 continue to be a field-capable radio, inheriting >> the characteristics that have always made the K3/K3S (and the K2 before it) >> the preferred rig for FD, DXpeditions, and multi-transmitter stations. >> Thanks to a lightweight but rigid internal aluminum frame, the K4 weighs >> only slightly more than the K3/K3S, while integrating in a large LCD in a >> way that increases width by less than 3 inches. (Unlike on many rigs, our >> front panel includes separate optical encoders for VFO A, VFO B, and >> RIT/XIT.) >> >> Current drain of the K4 is half that of most competing high-performance >> desktop radios, so it can be used with emergency power. At home, use 13.8 to >> 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically >> scales maximum power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as >> low as 11 V. >> >> 73, >> Wayne >> N6KR >> >> >>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Buck wrote: >>> >>> Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V >>> "portable" or "field" version. >>> >>> k4ia, Buck >>> K3# 101 >>> Honor Roll 8B DXCC >>> EasyWayHamBooks.com >> >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> Message delivered to xda...@cis-broadband.com >> > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to n...@elecraft.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
You're right, Joe: you don't want to push predistortion to the max available power out on a given band. It may be a little less than 100 W to ensure headroom under all load conditions. And these days, predistortion is done with DSP. The K4 has a lot more horsepower in this regard than the K3/K3S. Wayne N6KR > On Nov 4, 2019, at 4:54 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > > On 2019-11-04 7:34 PM, W2xj wrote: >> One could always have a modular approach which is how other industries >> approach this. > Sure, a modular approach would work well ... a 12V/60W PA or > a 40V/200W PA that would plug into the same space. Not exactly > rocket science. > > > BTW, predistortion is common practice is a number of industries. > > Yes, I'm very familiar with predistortion - it was common in analog > UHF TV transmitters 30+ years ago and integral to broadcast HDTV > today. Still, proper setup was not something for an "appliance > operator" and tracking changing operating conditions (e.g., fading > batteries) takes a lot of computational horsepower. On top of that, > predistortion works best when the amplifier chain is not pushed for > every last fraction of a watt of output - best results will always > be obtained when the PA chain is reasonably clean to start with. > > 73, > > ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
> On Nov 4, 2019, at 4:29 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote: > > The continued insistence on 12V radios should be limited to mobile or > portable type and configured radios. Like the K4 :) Wayne N6KR > > 73 > > Bob, K4TAX > > > On 11/4/2019 3:31 PM, Graydon (N7RXL) wrote: >> I'm grateful they do. I always run the radio off of a battery, so I don't >> have to ever worry about whether the AC power is on or not. I like to be >> able to run my radios during a disaster. It's a lot simpler to connect the >> radio to the battery, than to connect radio to power supply, then to >> inverter, then to battery. >> >> >>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 12:53 PM, David Gilbert wrote: >>> >>> ? >>> Their continued insistence upon everything being 12 volt capable is a bit >>> of a puzzlement for me. >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> Message delivered to rmcg...@blomand.net >> > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to n...@elecraft.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
Joe, Not everyone uses an amp with their 100-W rig (in fact, far less than half). Like other 100-W radios that are compatible with field use, the K3/K3S/K4 must make ~100 W from a 12-15 V mobile, solar, or battery supply. But it also has to be efficient at this power level. If you only need amp drive power, the IMD improves. And the K4 is capable of predistortion, which means that at amp drive levels, IMD performance should be truly outstanding. The transformer ratio is 16:1, the same as most other "12 V capable" 100 W transceivers. If you go to 25:1, drain current goes way up, precluding the use of standard 20/25-A power supplies and making the radio a lot less portable. 73, Wayne N6KR > On Nov 4, 2019, at 4:45 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > > On 2019-11-04 6:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: >> At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and >> now, the K4) automatically scales maximum power output based on >> supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V. > > It is a shame that the maximum power output along with bias levels and > transformer ratios were not selected for lowest obtainable IMD. Output > power (100 W) became the only specification that counted even though > 60 W would have been enough to drive the KPA-500/KPA-1500 with truly > outstanding IMD. > > 73, > > ... Joe, W4TV > > > On 2019-11-04 6:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: >> Hi all, >> We've chosen to have the K4 continue to be a field-capable radio, inheriting >> the characteristics that have always made the K3/K3S (and the K2 before it) >> the preferred rig for FD, DXpeditions, and multi-transmitter stations. >> Thanks to a lightweight but rigid internal aluminum frame, the K4 weighs >> only slightly more than the K3/K3S, while integrating in a large LCD in a >> way that increases width by less than 3 inches. (Unlike on many rigs, our >> front panel includes separate optical encoders for VFO A, VFO B, and >> RIT/XIT.) >> Current drain of the K4 is half that of most competing high-performance >> desktop radios, so it can be used with emergency power. At home, use 13.8 to >> 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically >> scales maximum power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as >> low as 11 V. >> 73, >> Wayne >> N6KR >>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Buck wrote: >>> >>> Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V >>> "portable" or "field" version. >>> >>> k4ia, Buck >>> K3# 101 >>> Honor Roll 8B DXCC >>> EasyWayHamBooks.com >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> Message delivered to li...@subich.com > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to n...@elecraft.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
I guess I still don't understand that choice, particularly since the bulk of the new features that separate the K4 from the K3s seem geared more toward fixed station use than portable operation. You could have kept the K3s (which is still a world class rig) for anyone actually needing portable capability while making the K4 a much cleaner rig than it now will be. I'd be surprised if very many DXpeditions or contesters are going to feel the need to upgrade from a K3s to a K4, and if so I'd be interested in hearing why. I'd also bet that the great majority of K4 users will never take their rig outside the house or need to run it off emergency power, yet all of them are now going to have signals at least 10 db less clean than was technically practical. Like it or not, Sherwood's recent QST article applies to Elecraft. Dave AB7E On 11/4/2019 4:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: Hi all, We've chosen to have the K4 continue to be a field-capable radio, inheriting the characteristics that have always made the K3/K3S (and the K2 before it) the preferred rig for FD, DXpeditions, and multi-transmitter stations. Thanks to a lightweight but rigid internal aluminum frame, the K4 weighs only slightly more than the K3/K3S, while integrating in a large LCD in a way that increases width by less than 3 inches. (Unlike on many rigs, our front panel includes separate optical encoders for VFO A, VFO B, and RIT/XIT.) Current drain of the K4 is half that of most competing high-performance desktop radios, so it can be used with emergency power. At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically scales maximum power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V. 73, Wayne N6KR On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Buck wrote: Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V "portable" or "field" version. k4ia, Buck K3# 101 Honor Roll 8B DXCC EasyWayHamBooks.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to xda...@cis-broadband.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
On 2019-11-04 7:34 PM, W2xj wrote:
One could always have a modular approach which is how other
industries approach this.
Sure, a modular approach would work well ... a 12V/60W PA or
a 40V/200W PA that would plug into the same space. Not exactly
rocket science.
> BTW, predistortion is common practice is a number of industries.
Yes, I'm very familiar with predistortion - it was common in analog
UHF TV transmitters 30+ years ago and integral to broadcast HDTV
today. Still, proper setup was not something for an "appliance
operator" and tracking changing operating conditions (e.g., fading
batteries) takes a lot of computational horsepower. On top of that,
predistortion works best when the amplifier chain is not pushed for
every last fraction of a watt of output - best results will always
be obtained when the PA chain is reasonably clean to start with.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
On 2019-11-04 7:34 PM, W2xj wrote:
One could always have a modular approach which is how other industries approach
this. Broadband combiners are not that complicated. BTW, predistortion is
common practice is a number of industries.
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 4, 2019, at 5:03 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of
portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios.
They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts.
If that's the design philosophy, limit the power output to 60 W PEP.
Elecraft already have *two* other 12V capable radios - the KX2 and KX3 -
of one doesn't count the K2. *WHY* create another dirty 12V radio
("active predistortion" is not the solution) when one can have a clean
60W radio at 12V or a clean 200W radio at 40V?
Build a DC-DC supply for the 40V PA stage if one wants to run it from
an automobile electrical system (or install a separate 48V alternator,
regulator and battery specifically for the PA stage).
Increasing transmit IMD by a factor of 40 just to operate the radio
at 100 W PEP on a 12 battery is unconscionable given today's state
of the art. It was different when 48V transistors/FETs were not
available but that ship sailed almost 20 years ago.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
On 2019-11-04 6:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically scales maximum power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V. It is a shame that the maximum power output along with bias levels and transformer ratios were not selected for lowest obtainable IMD. Output power (100 W) became the only specification that counted even though 60 W would have been enough to drive the KPA-500/KPA-1500 with truly outstanding IMD. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 2019-11-04 6:20 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: Hi all, We've chosen to have the K4 continue to be a field-capable radio, inheriting the characteristics that have always made the K3/K3S (and the K2 before it) the preferred rig for FD, DXpeditions, and multi-transmitter stations. Thanks to a lightweight but rigid internal aluminum frame, the K4 weighs only slightly more than the K3/K3S, while integrating in a large LCD in a way that increases width by less than 3 inches. (Unlike on many rigs, our front panel includes separate optical encoders for VFO A, VFO B, and RIT/XIT.) Current drain of the K4 is half that of most competing high-performance desktop radios, so it can be used with emergency power. At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically scales maximum power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V. 73, Wayne N6KR On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Buck wrote: Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V "portable" or "field" version. k4ia, Buck K3# 101 Honor Roll 8B DXCC EasyWayHamBooks.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to li...@subich.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
As stated earlier, a radio with internal power supply capable of 90V to
250V and run the PA devices from 48 to 60 volts for a 100 watt radios.
And for mobile or portable, a 12VDC to 120VAC converter, makes it a 12V
radio. I use a 1000 watt pure sinewave converter on our travel
trailer. The converter is about 1/2 the size of my P3 and cost about
$300. Thus not much more than the cost of a AC power supply and it is
CLEAN.
73
Bob, K4TAX
On 11/4/2019 4:02 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
> Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of
> portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios.
> They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts.
If that's the design philosophy, limit the power output to 60 W PEP.
Elecraft already have *two* other 12V capable radios - the KX2 and KX3 -
of one doesn't count the K2. *WHY* create another dirty 12V radio
("active predistortion" is not the solution) when one can have a clean
60W radio at 12V or a clean 200W radio at 40V?
Build a DC-DC supply for the 40V PA stage if one wants to run it from
an automobile electrical system (or install a separate 48V alternator,
regulator and battery specifically for the PA stage).
Increasing transmit IMD by a factor of 40 just to operate the radio
at 100 W PEP on a 12 battery is unconscionable given today's state
of the art. It was different when 48V transistors/FETs were not
available but that ship sailed almost 20 years ago.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of
portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios.
They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts. Lots of
other manufacturers love giant, heavy rigs. Elecraft doesn't.
73,
Scott N9AA
On 11/4/19 3:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
I agree completely with all of that, but with the discontinuance of
the K3s it seems that Elecraft doesn't really consider the K4 to be
strictly a base station rig. Their continued insistence upon
everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me.
73,
Dave AB7E
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to li...@subich.com
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to rmcg...@blomand.net
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
One could always have a modular approach which is how other industries approach
this. Broadband combiners are not that complicated. BTW, predistortion is
common practice is a number of industries.
Sent from my iPad
> On Nov 4, 2019, at 5:03 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
> On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
> > Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of
> > portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios.
> > They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts.
>
> If that's the design philosophy, limit the power output to 60 W PEP.
>
> Elecraft already have *two* other 12V capable radios - the KX2 and KX3 -
> of one doesn't count the K2. *WHY* create another dirty 12V radio
> ("active predistortion" is not the solution) when one can have a clean
> 60W radio at 12V or a clean 200W radio at 40V?
>
> Build a DC-DC supply for the 40V PA stage if one wants to run it from
> an automobile electrical system (or install a separate 48V alternator,
> regulator and battery specifically for the PA stage).
>
> Increasing transmit IMD by a factor of 40 just to operate the radio
> at 100 W PEP on a 12 battery is unconscionable given today's state
> of the art. It was different when 48V transistors/FETs were not
> available but that ship sailed almost 20 years ago.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>> On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
>> Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of
>> portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios. They're
>> lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts. Lots of other
>> manufacturers love giant, heavy rigs. Elecraft doesn't.
>> 73,
>> Scott N9AA
>>> On 11/4/19 3:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
>>>
>>> I agree completely with all of that, but with the discontinuance of the K3s
>>> it seems that Elecraft doesn't really consider the K4 to be strictly a base
>>> station rig. Their continued insistence upon everything being 12 volt
>>> capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Dave AB7E
>>>
>>>
>> __
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to li...@subich.com
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to w...@w2xj.net
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
Build radios with internal supplies capable of 90V to 250V and the PA's running 48 to 60 volts for 100 watt radios. The continued insistence on 12V radios should be limited to mobile or portable type and configured radios. 73 Bob, K4TAX On 11/4/2019 3:31 PM, Graydon (N7RXL) wrote: I'm grateful they do. I always run the radio off of a battery, so I don't have to ever worry about whether the AC power is on or not. I like to be able to run my radios during a disaster. It's a lot simpler to connect the radio to the battery, than to connect radio to power supply, then to inverter, then to battery. On Nov 4, 2019, at 12:53 PM, David Gilbert wrote: ? Their continued insistence upon everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to rmcg...@blomand.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
Predecessors to the K3 have already reached the "unobtanium parts" stage, K3 probably isn't too far behind. The US military logistics folks will do a "lifetime buy" when parts for the airplane or tank are headed for obsolete-ness. The US military never runs out of checks, of course. [:-) I don't think Elecraft is in a position to buy up all the soon-to-be-gone components on the market since K3 sales are likely to fade significantly with the K4. My K3 is #642[U], I have upgraded it some, but I'm still a little stunned at how long ago it was designed and came to market. 73, Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW Sparks NV DM09dn Washoe County On 11/4/2019 3:07 PM, Buck wrote: Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V "portable" or "field" version. k4ia, Buck K3# 101 Honor Roll 8B DXCC EasyWayHamBooks.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
Hi all, We've chosen to have the K4 continue to be a field-capable radio, inheriting the characteristics that have always made the K3/K3S (and the K2 before it) the preferred rig for FD, DXpeditions, and multi-transmitter stations. Thanks to a lightweight but rigid internal aluminum frame, the K4 weighs only slightly more than the K3/K3S, while integrating in a large LCD in a way that increases width by less than 3 inches. (Unlike on many rigs, our front panel includes separate optical encoders for VFO A, VFO B, and RIT/XIT.) Current drain of the K4 is half that of most competing high-performance desktop radios, so it can be used with emergency power. At home, use 13.8 to 14.2 V for lowest IMD. In the field, the K3 (and now, the K4) automatically scales maximum power output based on supply voltage, and can run down to as low as 11 V. 73, Wayne N6KR > On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Buck wrote: > > Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the 12V > "portable" or "field" version. > > k4ia, Buck > K3# 101 > Honor Roll 8B DXCC > EasyWayHamBooks.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
Perhaps the K4 should have been a 40V radio and the K3S remain as the
12V "portable" or "field" version.
k4ia, Buck
K3# 101
Honor Roll 8B DXCC
EasyWayHamBooks.com
On 11/4/2019 5:02 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
> Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of
> portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios.
> They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts.
If that's the design philosophy, limit the power output to 60 W PEP.
Elecraft already have *two* other 12V capable radios - the KX2 and KX3 -
of one doesn't count the K2. *WHY* create another dirty 12V radio
("active predistortion" is not the solution) when one can have a clean
60W radio at 12V or a clean 200W radio at 40V?
Build a DC-DC supply for the 40V PA stage if one wants to run it from
an automobile electrical system (or install a separate 48V alternator,
regulator and battery specifically for the PA stage).
Increasing transmit IMD by a factor of 40 just to operate the radio
at 100 W PEP on a 12 battery is unconscionable given today's state
of the art. It was different when 48V transistors/FETs were not
available but that ship sailed almost 20 years ago.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of
portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios.
They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts. Lots of
other manufacturers love giant, heavy rigs. Elecraft doesn't.
73,
Scott N9AA
On 11/4/19 3:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
I agree completely with all of that, but with the discontinuance of
the K3s it seems that Elecraft doesn't really consider the K4 to be
strictly a base station rig. Their continued insistence upon
everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me.
73,
Dave AB7E
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to li...@subich.com
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to radiok...@gmail.com
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
> Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of
> portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios.
> They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts.
If that's the design philosophy, limit the power output to 60 W PEP.
Elecraft already have *two* other 12V capable radios - the KX2 and KX3 -
of one doesn't count the K2. *WHY* create another dirty 12V radio
("active predistortion" is not the solution) when one can have a clean
60W radio at 12V or a clean 200W radio at 40V?
Build a DC-DC supply for the 40V PA stage if one wants to run it from
an automobile electrical system (or install a separate 48V alternator,
regulator and battery specifically for the PA stage).
Increasing transmit IMD by a factor of 40 just to operate the radio
at 100 W PEP on a 12 battery is unconscionable given today's state
of the art. It was different when 48V transistors/FETs were not
available but that ship sailed almost 20 years ago.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
On 2019-11-04 4:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of
portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios.
They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts. Lots of other
manufacturers love giant, heavy rigs. Elecraft doesn't.
73,
Scott N9AA
On 11/4/19 3:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
I agree completely with all of that, but with the discontinuance of
the K3s it seems that Elecraft doesn't really consider the K4 to be
strictly a base station rig. Their continued insistence upon
everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me.
73,
Dave AB7E
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to li...@subich.com
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
Elecraft's design philosophy dictates that their radio be capable of portable/field operation, so that's how they design their radios. They're lightweight, efficient, and operate off 12 volts. Lots of other manufacturers love giant, heavy rigs. Elecraft doesn't. 73, Scott N9AA On 11/4/19 3:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote: I agree completely with all of that, but with the discontinuance of the K3s it seems that Elecraft doesn't really consider the K4 to be strictly a base station rig. Their continued insistence upon everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me. 73, Dave AB7E __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
I'm grateful they do. I always run the radio off of a battery, so I don't have to ever worry about whether the AC power is on or not. I like to be able to run my radios during a disaster. It's a lot simpler to connect the radio to the battery, than to connect radio to power supply, then to inverter, then to battery. > On Nov 4, 2019, at 12:53 PM, David Gilbert wrote: > > ? > Their continued insistence upon everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of > a puzzlement for me. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
Perhaps since that is the standard voltage for cars, trucks, RVs and other vehicles. I run my power supplies at 14.2 v to be as clean as possible. Rick NK7I Smell Czech correction happens > On Nov 4, 2019, at 12:53 PM, David Gilbert wrote: > > > Their continued insistence upon everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of > a puzzlement for me. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
I agree completely with all of that, but with the discontinuance of the K3s it seems that Elecraft doesn't really consider the K4 to be strictly a base station rig. Their continued insistence upon everything being 12 volt capable is a bit of a puzzlement for me. 73, Dave AB7E On 11/4/2019 1:37 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: The issue is that 12V transistors are simply not capable of providing the "clean" voltage swings necessary to generate 100 - 120W peak power. A typical transistor/FET has a series output impedance of around 1 - 1.5 Ohms. Thus if the peak current is ~10A per device, the transistor is operating from cut-off to saturated - with the unavoidable distortion (clipping/saturation) at each end of that range. Simply put, insistence on more than about 60 W PEP from a pair of 12V devices is *asking for IMD* and "active predistortion" only masks that issue with a significant cost in complexity and DSP hardware. Equipment designers should give up on 12V devices for "base station" radios and go to 48V devices - even at 200 W PEP output levels. The designers should stick to 60 W output for 12V devices. That level is more than enough to drive an amplifier in the KPA-500 class to rated output and close (if not sufficient) for even a KPA-1500 and can be improved, if necessary, with much less complex precorrection systems. Redesigned with bias levels and transformers optimized for the lower power levels, perhaps with increased negative feedback, the K3/K3S could exhibit *much* - at least 10 dB - better IMD at 50 - 60 W PEP output (although efficiency would probably suffer for those who just absolutely need to run the rig from a 12V battery pack on a picnic table). 73, ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
On 2019-11-04 10:48 AM, Bill Johnson wrote: Seems most transmitters are in the same boat using solid state > transmitters/amplifiers, vs. tubes. The issue is that 12V transistors are simply not capable of providing the "clean" voltage swings necessary to generate 100 - 120W peak power. A typical transistor/FET has a series output impedance of around 1 - 1.5 Ohms. Thus if the peak current is ~10A per device, the transistor is operating from cut-off to saturated - with the unavoidable distortion (clipping/saturation) at each end of that range. Simply put, insistence on more than about 60 W PEP from a pair of 12V devices is *asking for IMD* and "active predistortion" only masks that issue with a significant cost in complexity and DSP hardware. Equipment designers should give up on 12V devices for "base station" radios and go to 48V devices - even at 200 W PEP output levels. The designers should stick to 60 W output for 12V devices. That level is more than enough to drive an amplifier in the KPA-500 class to rated output and close (if not sufficient) for even a KPA-1500 and can be improved, if necessary, with much less complex precorrection systems. Redesigned with bias levels and transformers optimized for the lower power levels, perhaps with increased negative feedback, the K3/K3S could exhibit *much* - at least 10 dB - better IMD at 50 - 60 W PEP output (although efficiency would probably suffer for those who just absolutely need to run the rig from a 12V battery pack on a picnic table). 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 2019-11-04 10:48 AM, Bill Johnson wrote: Thank you, Bob. Rob, clarified to me. Seems most transmitters are in the same boat using solid state transmitters/amplifiers, vs. tubes. 73, Bill K9YEQ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
Note the TX SAMPLE input on the rear panel, clearly shown in the product brochure :) Wayne N6KR > On Nov 4, 2019, at 8:29 AM, Dan Atchison via Elecraft > wrote: > > Yea!?? I've been waiting for this announcement!?? Way to go Elecraft! > > On 11/4/2019 11:13 AM, Grant Youngman wrote: >> Well, that???s very good news. Unless I???ve missed it, this is first note >> I've seen that confirms predistortion corrections in the K4. >> >> Grant NQ5T >> >>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 10:58 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote: >>> >>> This is why the K4 (and a small number of other transceivers) include >>> "active predistortion" capability in hardware. It adapts the drive power to >>> the response curve of the PA stage. The K4 also has an TX sample input to >>> include an external amplifier in the correction loop. (The KPA1500 has a TX >>> sample output for this purpose.) >>> >>> We expect to post numbers significantly better than the industry's typical >>> 3rd-order intermod performance at 100 W, which stands at about -30 dBc >>> (ARRL method). >>> >>> 73, >>> Wayne >>> N6KR >>> >>> >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> Message delivered to n...@aol.com > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to n...@elecraft.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
Yea!?? I've been waiting for this announcement!?? Way to go Elecraft! On 11/4/2019 11:13 AM, Grant Youngman wrote: Well, that???s very good news. Unless I???ve missed it, this is first note I've seen that confirms predistortion corrections in the K4. Grant NQ5T On Nov 4, 2019, at 10:58 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote: This is why the K4 (and a small number of other transceivers) include "active predistortion" capability in hardware. It adapts the drive power to the response curve of the PA stage. The K4 also has an TX sample input to include an external amplifier in the correction loop. (The KPA1500 has a TX sample output for this purpose.) We expect to post numbers significantly better than the industry's typical 3rd-order intermod performance at 100 W, which stands at about -30 dBc (ARRL method). 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to n...@aol.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
The hardware is in place. Some firmware is required that will be phased in when it's ready. Wayne > On Nov 4, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Grant Youngman wrote: > > Well, that’s very good news. Unless I’ve missed it, this is first note I've > seen that confirms predistortion corrections in the K4. > > Grant NQ5T > >> On Nov 4, 2019, at 10:58 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote: >> >> This is why the K4 (and a small number of other transceivers) include >> "active predistortion" capability in hardware. It adapts the drive power to >> the response curve of the PA stage. The K4 also has an TX sample input to >> include an external amplifier in the correction loop. (The KPA1500 has a TX >> sample output for this purpose.) >> >> We expect to post numbers significantly better than the industry's typical >> 3rd-order intermod performance at 100 W, which stands at about -30 dBc (ARRL >> method). >> >> 73, >> Wayne >> N6KR >> >> > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
Well, that’s very good news. Unless I’ve missed it, this is first note I've seen that confirms predistortion corrections in the K4. Grant NQ5T > On Nov 4, 2019, at 10:58 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote: > > This is why the K4 (and a small number of other transceivers) include "active > predistortion" capability in hardware. It adapts the drive power to the > response curve of the PA stage. The K4 also has an TX sample input to include > an external amplifier in the correction loop. (The KPA1500 has a TX sample > output for this purpose.) > > We expect to post numbers significantly better than the industry's typical > 3rd-order intermod performance at 100 W, which stands at about -30 dBc (ARRL > method). > > 73, > Wayne > N6KR > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
This is why the K4 (and a small number of other transceivers) include "active predistortion" capability in hardware. It adapts the drive power to the response curve of the PA stage. The K4 also has an TX sample input to include an external amplifier in the correction loop. (The KPA1500 has a TX sample output for this purpose.) We expect to post numbers significantly better than the industry's typical 3rd-order intermod performance at 100 W, which stands at about -30 dBc (ARRL method). 73, Wayne N6KR > On Nov 4, 2019, at 7:48 AM, Bill Johnson wrote: > > Thank you, Bob. Rob, clarified to me. Seems most transmitters are in the > same boat using solid state transmitters/amplifiers, vs. tubes. > > 73, > Bill > K9YEQ > > > -Original Message- > From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net On > Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX > Sent: Sunday, November 3, 2019 7:25 PM > To: Elecraft Reflector > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued > > I suppose I am the "Bob" you refer to. The section in Rob's article on > Odd-Order Intermodulation he clearly explains "worse". > > Our receivers have gotten much better over the years but unfortunately our > transmitters and amplifiers have gotten worse. To quantify, the ARRL > published a compendium of distortion products of linear amplifiers in 1997. > The third order distortion was in the 40 and 50 dB PEP range. In 2019 an ARRL > review of solid state legal limit amplifiers reported the third order > distortion was only down 30 dB. This is a 10 to 20 dB degradation from 1997 > to 2019.I'd call this "worse". > > 73 > > Bob, K4TAX > > On 11/3/2019 6:56 PM, Bill K9YEQ wrote: >> >> “worse” seems a bit much when looking at the actual levels. Bob, did >> you mean something else? I know this is semantics…. >> >> 73, >> >> Bill >> >> K9YEQ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
Thank you, Bob. Rob, clarified to me. Seems most transmitters are in the same boat using solid state transmitters/amplifiers, vs. tubes. 73, Bill K9YEQ -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net On Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX Sent: Sunday, November 3, 2019 7:25 PM To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued I suppose I am the "Bob" you refer to. The section in Rob's article on Odd-Order Intermodulation he clearly explains "worse". Our receivers have gotten much better over the years but unfortunately our transmitters and amplifiers have gotten worse. To quantify, the ARRL published a compendium of distortion products of linear amplifiers in 1997. The third order distortion was in the 40 and 50 dB PEP range. In 2019 an ARRL review of solid state legal limit amplifiers reported the third order distortion was only down 30 dB. This is a 10 to 20 dB degradation from 1997 to 2019. I'd call this "worse". 73 Bob, K4TAX On 11/3/2019 6:56 PM, Bill K9YEQ wrote: > > “worse” seems a bit much when looking at the actual levels. Bob, did > you mean something else? I know this is semantics…. > > 73, > > Bill > > K9YEQ > > https://wrj-tech.com/ > > *From:*elecraft...@groups.io *On Behalf Of > *Rob Sherwood > *Sent:* Sunday, November 3, 2019 5:16 PM > *To:* elecraft...@groups.io > *Subject:* Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued > > The K3S is excellent in respect to transmit composite noise. Transmit > IMD, on the other hand, is quite different at various power levels. > The sweet spot is around 35 watts, but much worse at 12 watts and 100 > watts. Here is composite noise data. Hopefully the formatting will > hold up. > > Rob, NC0B > > Transmit Composite Noise Rig Comparisons 20 meters values in dBc/Hz > > Rig @ 100 watts 2 kHz offset 10 kHz offset > 20 kHz offset 100 kHz offset > > K3S -141 n/a -143 > > FTdx-101D -133 -137 -138 > -141 > > IC-7851 -129 n/a -138 > > IC-7610 -128 -130 -142 > > Flex 6400 -122 -127 -139 > > IC-7300 -121 -121 -124 > > FTdx-3000 -120 n/a -121 > > TS-890S -116 -119 > -127 -139 > > Rig @ 30 watts 2 kHz offset 10 kHz offset > 20 kHz offset 100 kHz offset > > FTdx-101D -129 -134 -135 > -137 > > K3S -132 n/a -140 > > IC-7851 -123 n/a -133 > > IC-7610 -122 -124 -127 > > Flex 6400 -120 -125 -137 > > FTdx-3000 -117 n/a -117 > > TS-890S -112 -115 > -124 -135 > > IC-7300 -110 -109 -116 > > *From:*elecraft...@groups.io <mailto:elecraft...@groups.io> > [mailto:elecraft...@groups.io] *On Behalf Of *Wes > *Sent:* Sunday, November 03, 2019 10:32 AM > *To:* elecraft...@groups.io <mailto:elecraft...@groups.io> > *Subject:* Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued > > If TX IMD is the issue, K3 and K3S transmitters are a real mixed bag. > My old K3 at 30 watts is fantastic, with IMD at all frequencies better > than -40 dBc (ARRL method). The same radio at 10W is the worst of my > two radios, except at 24 MHz where the K3 and K3S tie at -22 dBc. > > It's been hard to keep up with these measurements since the KLPA3A in > the K3S has been replaced twice and the KPA3A is IIRC, on the fourth > version. > > Wes N7WS > > On 11/3/2019 8:16 AM, Martin Sole wrote: > > I suspect the quality of the transmitter particularly with regard > to its composite noise spectrum to be a large player. Some radios > with high end receiver performance have rudimentary (I'm being > kind) transmitter composite noise performance. > > See what NK7Z, NC0B and K9YC have written about this. > > > Martin, HS0ZED > > On 03/11/2019 21:30, Mark Morin wrote: > > My experience is that the type of rig does make a difference > for close coexistence. We’ve found on DxPeditions that an > upgraded K3 with KPA500 and a Kenwood TS-590s also with > KPA500, can coexist quite well with antennas ab
Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued
I suppose I am the "Bob" you refer to. The section in Rob's article on Odd-Order Intermodulation he clearly explains "worse". Our receivers have gotten much better over the years but unfortunately our transmitters and amplifiers have gotten worse. To quantify, the ARRL published a compendium of distortion products of linear amplifiers in 1997. The third order distortion was in the 40 and 50 dB PEP range. In 2019 an ARRL review of solid state legal limit amplifiers reported the third order distortion was only down 30 dB. This is a 10 to 20 dB degradation from 1997 to 2019. I'd call this "worse". 73 Bob, K4TAX On 11/3/2019 6:56 PM, Bill K9YEQ wrote: “worse” seems a bit much when looking at the actual levels. Bob, did you mean something else? I know this is semantics…. 73, Bill K9YEQ https://wrj-tech.com/ *From:*elecraft...@groups.io *On Behalf Of *Rob Sherwood *Sent:* Sunday, November 3, 2019 5:16 PM *To:* elecraft...@groups.io *Subject:* Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued The K3S is excellent in respect to transmit composite noise. Transmit IMD, on the other hand, is quite different at various power levels. The sweet spot is around 35 watts, but much worse at 12 watts and 100 watts. Here is composite noise data. Hopefully the formatting will hold up. Rob, NC0B Transmit Composite Noise Rig Comparisons 20 meters values in dBc/Hz Rig @ 100 watts 2 kHz offset 10 kHz offset 20 kHz offset 100 kHz offset K3S -141 n/a -143 FTdx-101D -133 -137 -138 -141 IC-7851 -129 n/a -138 IC-7610 -128 -130 -142 Flex 6400 -122 -127 -139 IC-7300 -121 -121 -124 FTdx-3000 -120 n/a -121 TS-890S -116 -119 -127 -139 Rig @ 30 watts 2 kHz offset 10 kHz offset 20 kHz offset 100 kHz offset FTdx-101D -129 -134 -135 -137 K3S -132 n/a -140 IC-7851 -123 n/a -133 IC-7610 -122 -124 -127 Flex 6400 -120 -125 -137 FTdx-3000 -117 n/a -117 TS-890S -112 -115 -124 -135 IC-7300 -110 -109 -116 *From:*elecraft...@groups.io <mailto:elecraft...@groups.io> [mailto:elecraft...@groups.io] *On Behalf Of *Wes *Sent:* Sunday, November 03, 2019 10:32 AM *To:* elecraft...@groups.io <mailto:elecraft...@groups.io> *Subject:* Re: [Elecraft-K3] K3S to be discontinued If TX IMD is the issue, K3 and K3S transmitters are a real mixed bag. My old K3 at 30 watts is fantastic, with IMD at all frequencies better than -40 dBc (ARRL method). The same radio at 10W is the worst of my two radios, except at 24 MHz where the K3 and K3S tie at -22 dBc. It's been hard to keep up with these measurements since the KLPA3A in the K3S has been replaced twice and the KPA3A is IIRC, on the fourth version. Wes N7WS On 11/3/2019 8:16 AM, Martin Sole wrote: I suspect the quality of the transmitter particularly with regard to its composite noise spectrum to be a large player. Some radios with high end receiver performance have rudimentary (I'm being kind) transmitter composite noise performance. See what NK7Z, NC0B and K9YC have written about this. Martin, HS0ZED On 03/11/2019 21:30, Mark Morin wrote: My experience is that the type of rig does make a difference for close coexistence. We’ve found on DxPeditions that an upgraded K3 with KPA500 and a Kenwood TS-590s also with KPA500, can coexist quite well with antennas about 300 ft apart. On most bands, we can operate SSB and CW simultaneously with tolerable QRM. Other times we have tried different high-end rigs in similar setup and found that opposite end of same-band operation was nearly impossible due to QRM. I suspect it’s mostly the receivers that makes the difference. Mark VA2MM _._,_._,_ Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#31452) <https://groups.io/g/Elecraft-K3/message/31452> | Reply To Group <mailto:elecraft...@groups.io?subject=Re:%20Re%3A%20%5BElecraft-K3%5D%20K3S%20to%20be%20discontinued> | Reply To Sender <mailto:k9...@live.com?subject=Private:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20
