Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Ian White]

Don wrote:

>Gene (and all),
>
>Yes, the AGC settings do help a lot.  The K3/K3S has enough gain that
>often the AGC is activated on the atmospheric noise in the band.

It isn't so much that the K3/K3S has "gain", but that the factory
default AGC THReshold is so very, very low. Measurements by KE7X [1]
have shown that the default setting of THR=5 corresponds to an AGC onset
at less than S3, whereas competing rigs have a threshold of S7 or even
higher. This very low AGC threshold is what allows the AGC to be
activated by band noise.

Elecraft's factory defaults of THR=5 and SLP=12 compress all signals
above the AGC threshold into a very narrow range of audio output levels
[see the measurements by KE7X]. This makes for comfortable
broadcast-style listening - but there is price to be paid. The default
settings greatly reduce the differences in the *true* strengths of
incoming signals - important differences that DXers and contesters
*need* to hear, in order to pick individual signals out of a pileup.

Following complaints from DXers, DXpeditioners and contesters about this
so-called "pileup mush", and following further series of measurements by
KE7X, Elecraft eventually did increase the available range of AGC
THReshold settings (the v4.51 firmware upgrade). 

Following the release of FW v4.51, consensus within the [K3-contesting]
Yahoo group about the most important settings for DXing and contesting
has been as follows. 

* AGC THR: increase to at least 8 (from default = 5) and preferably to
12 or even 14 if your ears can handle the increased range of audio
levels [2].

* AGC SLP: decrease to 8 or even less (from default = 12). Lower SLP
settings allow stronger signals to sound somewhat louder, and thus more
realistic, but the range of variation will be partly determined by the
THR setting already made; so always experiment with THR first, and with
SLP afterwards. 

* AGC DCY = SOFT (not default=NOR). The User Manual claims that "The
SOFT setting can reduce IMD caused by traditional AGC, and is especially
useful in 'pileup' conditions, in some cases making it unnecessary to
turn AGC off."
 
The settings recommended above have essentially solved the problem of
"pileup mush" for those who have tried them... but regrettably, Elecraft
has done almost nothing to make DXers and contesters  aware that such
changes are possible. 
 
More than 3 years after the firmware release notes boasted that v4.51
"greatly improves signal clarity in pile-ups and other high-noise or
dense-signal situations, especially with threshold set to 12 or higher",
that information is *still* missing from the User Manual. There is also
no information on how to create different 'profiles' of AGC settings for
different types of users.

Meanwhile, Elecraft's factory AGC defaults remain exactly as they were,
still optimized apparently for comfortable 'listening', while many DXers
and contesters remain unaware that their K3/K3S could actually be *so*
much better. 



[1] http://www.ke7x.com/home/miscellaneous-k3-information

[2] It is important to give any increased AGC THReshold setting an
extended trial. To anyone accustomed to an artificially restricted range
of audio signal levels, a higher setting will initially sound quite
'aggressive' -even though the new setting is much closer to real life. 


73 from Ian GM3SEK


>-Original Message-
>
>On 3/22/2016 6:32 PM, Gene Gabry wrote:
>> This has been an interesting thread to which I have experimented a
bit
>more
>> and found the AGC setting recommendations from a couple of posters to
>be
>> very valuable, and Eric's suggestions on BW settings to be a nice
>compliment
>> to play with. Although, my ears still like a little HF, I like the
sound of
>> a BW from 100hz to 2.7khz for SSB and usually the 500hz filter set to
>300hz
>> with DSP. I now have AGC THR set to max and AGC SLP set to 0. I also
set
>RX
>> EQ to flat and use hi/lo cut when needed. Really cuts down on the
high
>> frequency hash I get from this qth. I leave the AGC settings the same
for
>> SSB and CW and play with BW and cut between the two modes, depending
>on
>> conditions.
>>
>
>__
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>Message delivered to gm3...@ifwtech.co.uk

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Fred Jensen]

Great advice.  Mine, from one who has done this unsuccessfully, and then 
with advice, done it successfully, GO SLOW.  This means small changes to 
one parameter and some listening time before another change.  The 
changes to the various AGC parameters will have subtle effects, not all 
of which will be apparent on the first signal you listen to.  The K3 is 
incredibly configurable with multiple parameters, and the number of 
combinations is huge.  You need to creep up on it.


The right combo for you may differ between SSB and CW.  Try 75 [above 
3800] at night ... it's crowded and probably somewhat noisy [you can 
ignore most of the content, just go for the sound of the signal :-))]. 
On CW, I found DX pileups and pretended I was the DX tuning around the pile.


I had pretty much given up on the AGC as too complex and was going with 
the stock, out-of-the-box settings until I got this advice.  You can 
start with the stock settings or someone who believes they've achieved 
nirvana, but yours will depend on you.  Nobody hears the same you do and 
only you will know.  Just go slow and you'll find your sweet spot, I did.


73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2016
- www.cqp.org

On 3/22/2016 4:00 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:


So the preamp and attenuator settings are the first order of business.
After that, attack the AGC Threshold and Slope using the information at
my website www.w3fpr.com "noisy K3" article as a guide.


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Don Wilhelm]

Gene (and all),

Yes, the AGC settings do help a lot.  The K3/K3S has enough gain that 
often the AGC is activated on the atmospheric noise in the band.
However, I think your chosen AGC settings are a bit extreme for general 
use, but if your ears tell you it is good for you, then keep those 
settings and the rest of this post is for any others interested.


I would encourage first turning the preamp off to minimize the band 
noise - of course the need for a preamp or not will be band dependent.  
I see little use for the preamp on 160, 80, 60, 40 and 30 meters, and 
with the K3, the preamp on 20 meters is "iffy".  You may want to use the 
attenuator on 160 and 80 meters, and maybe even 60 meters.  Use your 
ears, and the band noise will vary from location to location.  Since 
those settings are per band, once you determine the proper preamp and 
attenuator settings for each band, they will be set the same way when 
returning to that band.


So the preamp and attenuator settings are the first order of business.
After that, attack the AGC Threshold and Slope using the information at 
my website www.w3fpr.com "noisy K3" article as a guide.


Finally, use the RX EQ settings to roll off the higher frequencies - 
again, trust your ears - what is helpful for one may not work for anyone 
else.  The K3/K3S has a lot of things that can be customized to the 
individual user.  It is usable 'right out of the box', but can (and 
should be) customized for your individual preferences.


I agree completely with several other comments that the best speakers 
and headphones are those which give a flat response.  Flat response 
"Hi-Fi" speakers and headphones work quite well.  Use the controls in 
the K3/K3S (mainly RX EQ) to tailor the sound.  If you use speakers that 
have peaks and adjust the RX EQ to those peaky speakers, when you use 
headphones, the RX EQ will be wrong for them.  By using flat response 
speakers and headphones, you should enjoy the same response from the 
speakers and the headphones.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/22/2016 6:32 PM, Gene Gabry wrote:

This has been an interesting thread to which I have experimented a bit more
and found the AGC setting recommendations from a couple of posters to be
very valuable, and Eric's suggestions on BW settings to be a nice compliment
to play with. Although, my ears still like a little HF, I like the sound of
a BW from 100hz to 2.7khz for SSB and usually the 500hz filter set to 300hz
with DSP. I now have AGC THR set to max and AGC SLP set to 0. I also set RX
EQ to flat and use hi/lo cut when needed. Really cuts down on the high
frequency hash I get from this qth. I leave the AGC settings the same for
SSB and CW and play with BW and cut between the two modes, depending on
conditions.



__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Gene Gabry]

This has been an interesting thread to which I have experimented a bit more
and found the AGC setting recommendations from a couple of posters to be
very valuable, and Eric's suggestions on BW settings to be a nice compliment
to play with. Although, my ears still like a little HF, I like the sound of
a BW from 100hz to 2.7khz for SSB and usually the 500hz filter set to 300hz
with DSP. I now have AGC THR set to max and AGC SLP set to 0. I also set RX
EQ to flat and use hi/lo cut when needed. Really cuts down on the high
frequency hash I get from this qth. I leave the AGC settings the same for
SSB and CW and play with BW and cut between the two modes, depending on
conditions. 

I've never ever put any stock into any manufacturers built in speakers. They
are there cause they have to be :) For the K3S I use a combination of a pair
of Polk Audio 5 1/4" book shelf speakers (60hz-24kz) and Pyle Pro 3" mini
cube speakers (90hz -18khz), per channel, and the sound is crisp and clear
audio. And, both speaker sets are black to match the K3S and all together
for all 4 speakers cost was $75.00 and change. 

The AGC settings were a big game changer to these old ears. 

73 Gene, N9TF

K3S 10057




 

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jim
Brown
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 4:11 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

On Tue,3/22/2016 1:34 PM, Gary Smith wrote:
> What I use are a pair of speakers with a truly flat response all the 
> way from 80 Hz to 22 KHz but extreme overkill...: Mackie HR824 powered 
> Studio monitors.

Yes, excellent AF response, very nice for recording, but massive overkill. I
have a pair as well. BUT -- they are also RFI dogs. Keying a 5W 2M talkie
across the room will cause their woofers to move enough that you'll clearly
see it, and they're also susceptible at some HF frequencies.

73, Jim K9YC
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
delivered to n...@comcast.net

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Walter Underwood]

> On Mar 21, 2016, at 9:21 AM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
>  … both Yamaha CM500 and Sony MDR7506. The Sony headphones are widely used in 
> recording studios, and the sound of the CM500 is pretty close in sound 
> quality.

The CM500 is fine for communication use, but maybe not for music. When my Grado 
SR60 headphones died after fifteen years, I tried using the CM500’s for a 
while. That didn’t work. I stopped listening until I got a new pair of Grado 
headphones. I upgraded to the SR225e.

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Jim Brown]

On Tue,3/22/2016 1:34 PM, Gary Smith wrote:

What I use are a pair of speakers with a truly flat response all the
way from 80 Hz to 22 KHz but extreme overkill...: Mackie HR824
powered Studio monitors.


Yes, excellent AF response, very nice for recording, but massive 
overkill. I have a pair as well. BUT -- they are also RFI dogs. Keying a 
5W 2M talkie across the room will cause their woofers to move enough 
that you'll clearly see it, and they're also susceptible at some HF 
frequencies.


73, Jim K9YC
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Gary Smith]

I so agree.

What I use are a pair of speakers with a truly flat response all the 
way from 80 Hz to 22 KHz but extreme overkill...: Mackie HR824 
powered Studio monitors. They are perfect to me and extremely flat. I 
already owned them because I used to do recording. In this vein, if 
you can find a cheap studio monitor on fleabay or wherever, you will 
surely love it with your K3s/K3.

73,

Gary
KA1J

> IMO, the BEST speakers and headphones for ham radio are those which have 
> FLAT response (that is, equal at all frequencies) within the speech 
> range (100 - 5,000 Hz) and low distortion. If they have wider response 
> (like hi-fi speakers), that's still good. And if their low frequency 
> response is rolled off, that's even better!
> 
> I would adjust RXEQ WHILE choosing an external speaker, tweaking 
> settings for each one as you try it. If, for example, peaky response of 
> a particular loudspeaker bothers you but it's a good quality (low 
> distortion) loudspeaker, RXEQ can be used to reduce that peak to make 
> your ear/brain happy.
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 3/22/2016 1:30 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>

IMO, the BEST speakers and headphones for ham radio are those which
have FLAT response (that is, equal at all frequencies) within the
speech range (100 - 5,000 Hz) and low distortion. If they have wider
response (like hi-fi speakers), that's still good. And if their low
frequency response is rolled off, that's even better!


I've found "Pyle 3" Mini Cube" speakers excellent for the K3.  Not
only are they small (about 3 5/8" x 3 5/8" x 4 1/2") their response
is noticeably rolled off below 100 Hz - and, I suspect somewhat below
200 Hz.  These "front facing" speakers are a treat with the K3 and
most other rigs I've had a chance to try them with ... and they even
manage to make the "flat to zero Hz" ESSB fools sound reasonable.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Edward R Cole]

two more cents - are we rich, yet?

Couple more comments on K3 audio quality and etc.

The MOT metal mobile speakers were designed for FM mobile and did 
sound good.  I don't have any so have not tried marrying one to a 
K3.  SSB sounds different than FM, especially full quieted FM. 
Installed a lot of Micors, Mitrek, Syntors, etc.


I did note the difference in sound when I went from the old FT-847 to 
the K3.  Did take a little time to adjust to "its" sound.
I have made a couple adjustments in the AGC attack with subtle 
changes in the sound.  But boy did it hear better on HF!


The full spectrum response of the SONY MDR-V600 stereo headset is nicest.

I often run bw down to as low as 2.1 KHz on SSB  (2.8-KHz filter) and 
that reduces white noise level.  SNR is directly proportional to 
bw.  So that improves the SNR.  Of course in a crowded band it also 
reduces QRM.  HF QRM is not so bad here as it must be in civilized 
areas.  Year's ago I ran off the grid on batteries and had S0 noise 
floor on 75m phone using a TS-180S and dipole.  I could really hear 
the weak one's.  Now its more likely S5 noise floor (different radio 
- different s-meter - on the grid!).


Not sure upgrading my K3 audio board would make enough difference for 
me.  Any guess on cost and difficulty of installation?  I have yet to 
install my new synth boards - too busy building 2m amplifiers.  It 
will be interesting to see what difference that will make.


I think audio quality is too personal to provide universal 
solution.  In the old day's choosing a stereo or speakers, I would go 
to an up-scale shop in Hollywood or Beverly Hills to chose the 
equipment as they had lavish sound rooms - then head back to West LA 
discount stores to buy one.  I found JBL were the best to my ears.




73, Ed - KL7UW, AL7EB (1982), KN8MWA (1958)
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Jim Brown]

On Tue,3/22/2016 8:36 AM, Bill Davis via Elecraft wrote:

  I use RX equalization AFTER I find a speaker that I can live with.


I suspect that the frequency response of the Motorola speakers are 
carefully shaped for maximum speech intelligibility in a noisy 
environment, and their response may be peaked a bit in the upper speech 
range. In the years when those loudspeakers were developed, Motorola was 
the premier 2-way radio company on the planet, and full of great engineers.


IMO, the BEST speakers and headphones for ham radio are those which have 
FLAT response (that is, equal at all frequencies) within the speech 
range (100 - 5,000 Hz) and low distortion. If they have wider response 
(like hi-fi speakers), that's still good. And if their low frequency 
response is rolled off, that's even better!


I would adjust RXEQ WHILE choosing an external speaker, tweaking 
settings for each one as you try it. If, for example, peaky response of 
a particular loudspeaker bothers you but it's a good quality (low 
distortion) loudspeaker, RXEQ can be used to reduce that peak to make 
your ear/brain happy.


73, Jim K9YC
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Jim Brown]

On Tue,3/22/2016 7:58 AM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote:

  There was a very pronounced peak in his
audio around 300 hz and practically no energy past
about 800Hz. No distortion, just a widely skewed
audio passband.  It was a boatanchor radio, so
there was something obviously wrong somewhere as
everyone else sounded great.


Yes, this is one of the most common causes of lousy SSB audio. Here's a 
tutorial I wrote for the most recent issue of the National Contest Journal.


k9yc.com/ContestAudio.pdf

73, Jim K9YC
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[F5vjc]

Behringer MS40 outstanding with my K3, no RFI problems either.

73,  Deni - F5VJC



On 22 March 2016 at 16:36, Bill Davis via Elecraft <elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> wrote:

>   I am not much of a "poster", but this thread has had my close attention.
> I guess even though I have been hamming for over 60yrs, I had somehow grown
> to believe that speakers for voice communication or CW, for that matter,
> were very NON- critical. In recent years I have come to a very much
> DIFFERENT opinion.
>   For close to 10yrs my 2m SSB rig was an Icom 746Pro. I loved the audio
> out of that rig. It had a 2m SSB only TX issue that Icom could not resolve
> after multiple trips back for repair. I sold it and bought a Kenwood
> TS2000. Swapped the rigs out and was dismayed at how horrible the rec audio
> sounded out of the 2000. That was with the same Motorola 2way speaker that
> I had used for years with the 746Pro! I mean horrible! I have quite a
> collection of the Motorola speakers and trying them one at a time, I found
> one that I could live with, not quite as good as the Pro but ok. Boy that
> 2000 was fussy about speakers.
>   Fall of 2009 when I added a K3 to the operating position, I found a
> similar "fussyness", when it came to speaker selection. I was NOT satisfied
> with the Motorola speaker that I had used happily with a IC-735 for many
> years. Speaker selection seem "critical" just like the 2000. That coupled
> with how one sets the Shift/ Width/Hi-Low cut make huge differences in the
> way the radio sounds (obvious). Huge variability with the Shift/
> Width/Hi-Low combined with mode and filter. WE HAVE CONTROL of these
> variables, they are not predetermined. I can make the K3 unpleasant to
> listen to with some combinations, no question.
>
>   Last month a K3s entered the picture and again I was trying about every
> speaker I had. Trying to find one that sounded as good as the K3 / Motorola
> speaker combo. None of my Motorola speakers came close. In the end I found
> a speaker from a failed power speaker system that I had relegated to the
> garage. I very much like the sound of that speaker and the K3s.
>   I use RX equalization AFTER I find a speaker that I can live with. I
> know that in this time of my life, my ears are not what they were  decades
> ago. I suspect that not only do I have known losses, but I may have certain
> frequency ranges that may be ANNOYING as well.
> I know back in my HiFi / Stereo days with vacuum tube amplifiers, speaker
> selection was pretty simple for me. When I transitioned to solid state
> amps, not so much.
>
> To anyone who dislikes the sound of your K3 or K3s, my experience is try
> LOTs of different speakers. I saw huge differences, not subtle, but HUGE.
> I'll bet you can find one that will work satisfactorily. These solid state
> AF amplifiers just may be more fussy about that transducer that is attached
> than what some of us would expect.
>
> 73 Bill K0AWU
>
>
>
>   From: ke9uw <c-haw...@illinois.edu>
>  To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>  Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 8:30 AM
>  Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?
>
> I had a 480 and did not care for the sort of pinched up audio compared to
> say
> the 850.
> I am using a couple of 6 by 9 speakers in enclosures on the K3, one on each
> side of the stereo and the sound is just fine. As they say, opinions vary
> and have so many variables like speakers, what/how/where you operate,
> physical hearing anomalies, etc. that audio reviews are just about useless.
>
>
>
> -
> Chuck, KE9UW
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-audio-board-for-K3-upgrade-tp7615346p7615445.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to cqbi...@yahoo.com
>
>
>
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to foxfive@gmail.com
>
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Bill Davis via Elecraft]

  I am not much of a "poster", but this thread has had my close attention. I 
guess even though I have been hamming for over 60yrs, I had somehow grown to 
believe that speakers for voice communication or CW, for that matter, were very 
NON- critical. In recent years I have come to a very much DIFFERENT opinion.
  For close to 10yrs my 2m SSB rig was an Icom 746Pro. I loved the audio out of 
that rig. It had a 2m SSB only TX issue that Icom could not resolve after 
multiple trips back for repair. I sold it and bought a Kenwood TS2000. Swapped 
the rigs out and was dismayed at how horrible the rec audio sounded out of the 
2000. That was with the same Motorola 2way speaker that I had used for years 
with the 746Pro! I mean horrible! I have quite a collection of the Motorola 
speakers and trying them one at a time, I found one that I could live with, not 
quite as good as the Pro but ok. Boy that 2000 was fussy about speakers.
  Fall of 2009 when I added a K3 to the operating position, I found a similar 
"fussyness", when it came to speaker selection. I was NOT satisfied with the 
Motorola speaker that I had used happily with a IC-735 for many years. Speaker 
selection seem "critical" just like the 2000. That coupled with how one sets 
the Shift/ Width/Hi-Low cut make huge differences in the way the radio sounds 
(obvious). Huge variability with the Shift/ Width/Hi-Low combined with mode and 
filter. WE HAVE CONTROL of these variables, they are not predetermined. I can 
make the K3 unpleasant to listen to with some combinations, no question. 

  Last month a K3s entered the picture and again I was trying about every 
speaker I had. Trying to find one that sounded as good as the K3 / Motorola 
speaker combo. None of my Motorola speakers came close. In the end I found a 
speaker from a failed power speaker system that I had relegated to the garage. 
I very much like the sound of that speaker and the K3s.
  I use RX equalization AFTER I find a speaker that I can live with. I know 
that in this time of my life, my ears are not what they were  decades ago. I 
suspect that not only do I have known losses, but I may have certain frequency 
ranges that may be ANNOYING as well.
I know back in my HiFi / Stereo days with vacuum tube amplifiers, speaker 
selection was pretty simple for me. When I transitioned to solid state amps, 
not so much.  

To anyone who dislikes the sound of your K3 or K3s, my experience is try LOTs 
of different speakers. I saw huge differences, not subtle, but HUGE. I'll bet 
you can find one that will work satisfactorily. These solid state AF amplifiers 
just may be more fussy about that transducer that is attached than what some of 
us would expect. 

73 Bill K0AWU

  

  From: ke9uw <c-haw...@illinois.edu>
 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
 Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 8:30 AM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?
   
I had a 480 and did not care for the sort of pinched up audio compared to say
the 850. 
I am using a couple of 6 by 9 speakers in enclosures on the K3, one on each
side of the stereo and the sound is just fine. As they say, opinions vary
and have so many variables like speakers, what/how/where you operate,
physical hearing anomalies, etc. that audio reviews are just about useless.



-
Chuck, KE9UW
--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-audio-board-for-K3-upgrade-tp7615346p7615445.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to cqbi...@yahoo.com


  
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Charlie T, K3ICH]

Using a couple old Radio Shack "Minimus"
speakers, I find the K3s to be the best sounding
and easiest to listen to radio I have ever had.
I agree, the TS-2000 as well as the TS-480, while
an excellent mobile rig, does in fact roll off the
higher frequencies too much for my antique ears.  
This started to happen around the time Kenwood
went to digital demodulation instead of analog
circuitry.

I was on one of the nets the other day using my
K3s and noticed the net control  station was
particularly hard to understand.   I thought my
hearing had gone or maybe I had set some parameter
incorrectly. Then I looked at the panadapter
display.  There was a very pronounced peak in his
audio around 300 hz and practically no energy past
about 800Hz. No distortion, just a widely skewed
audio passband.  It was a boatanchor radio, so
there was something obviously wrong somewhere as
everyone else sounded great.

My gut feel is that the K3s IS an improvement over
the K3 in regard to the recovered audio.

73, Charlie k3ICH







-Original Message-
From: Elecraft
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On
Behalf Of ke9uw
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 9:30 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3
upgrade?

I had a 480 and did not care for the sort of
pinched up audio compared to say the 850. 
I am using a couple of 6 by 9 speakers in
enclosures on the K3, one on each side of the
stereo and the sound is just fine. As they say,
opinions vary and have so many variables like
speakers, what/how/where you operate, physical
hearing anomalies, etc. that audio reviews are
just about useless.



-
Chuck, KE9UW
--
View this message in context:
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-audio-boa
rd-for-K3-upgrade-tp7615346p7615445.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
__

Elecraft mailing list
Home:
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list:
http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered
to pin...@erols.com

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[ke9uw]

I had a 480 and did not care for the sort of pinched up audio compared to say
the 850. 
I am using a couple of 6 by 9 speakers in enclosures on the K3, one on each
side of the stereo and the sound is just fine. As they say, opinions vary
and have so many variables like speakers, what/how/where you operate,
physical hearing anomalies, etc. that audio reviews are just about useless.



-
Chuck, KE9UW
--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-audio-board-for-K3-upgrade-tp7615346p7615445.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Barry N1EU]

I agree with Vic - I want minimal AGC action, only kicking in on the
strongest signals to keep the audio level below the ear's attenuation
reflex (see http://n1eu.com/K3NA_rx_audio.pdf )

I have my threshold set at 14 (along with AF Gain at approx 9 o'clock and
RF Gain adjusted so I can just hear band noise).  (btw, you might try
mysettings if you ever experience pileup mush when on the receiving end of
packet pileups).

73, Barry N1EU

On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 5:29 AM, Vic Rosenthal  wrote:

> "Too much noise" might mean the AGC threshold is low. One way to adjust it
> is to set it so that AGC does not activate on band noise (of course it's
> different on different bands/times). I have mine set to 12. I want AGC to
> do as little as possible except protect my ears.
>
> Vic 4X6GP/K2VCO
>
> > On 21 Mar 2016, at 11:11 PM, lstavenhagen 
> wrote:
> >
> > Another BTW, I'm definitely not asserting any _distortion_ of the
> signals or
> > tones in either radio. Both my K3 and K3S are giving pure clean tones and
> > voices. My complaints are only centering around (what I believe to be
> only)
> > the equalization in the audio, particularly the mid/high frequency noise.
> > Though as I said the K2 audio is a tough act to follow and I'm a bit
> spoiled
> > by it.
> >
> > The only time I have any impurities at all are with agressive settings of
> > the noise blanker or DSP with certain types of wide-band noise, which is
> > entirely expected.
> >
> > So just want to clarify that I'm not describing any distortion products
> at
> > all. Just aging hearing mostly hi hi..
> >
> > 73,
> > LS
> > W5QD
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-audio-board-for-K3-upgrade-tp7615346p7615423.html
> > Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > __
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to k2vco@gmail.com
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to n1eu.ba...@gmail.com
>
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Vic Rosenthal]

"Too much noise" might mean the AGC threshold is low. One way to adjust it is 
to set it so that AGC does not activate on band noise (of course it's different 
on different bands/times). I have mine set to 12. I want AGC to do as little as 
possible except protect my ears.

Vic 4X6GP/K2VCO

> On 21 Mar 2016, at 11:11 PM, lstavenhagen  wrote:
> 
> Another BTW, I'm definitely not asserting any _distortion_ of the signals or
> tones in either radio. Both my K3 and K3S are giving pure clean tones and
> voices. My complaints are only centering around (what I believe to be only)
> the equalization in the audio, particularly the mid/high frequency noise.
> Though as I said the K2 audio is a tough act to follow and I'm a bit spoiled
> by it. 
> 
> The only time I have any impurities at all are with agressive settings of
> the noise blanker or DSP with certain types of wide-band noise, which is
> entirely expected.
> 
> So just want to clarify that I'm not describing any distortion products at
> all. Just aging hearing mostly hi hi..
> 
> 73,
> LS
> W5QD
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-audio-board-for-K3-upgrade-tp7615346p7615423.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> 
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to k2vco@gmail.com
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[lstavenhagen]

Well... that may solve the audio problems - Kenwoods do sound great - but
then you end up with everything else in the rig inferior with that solution
hi hi 

But seriously, Eric's suggestion of shifting the passband downward is one
that I've used on my K3 in the past to help calm down my beat up ears, and
it does work. The result still isn't as nice as my K2, but it helps.

As for the general question of if-it-wasn't-broke-why-was-it-fixed, I'd say
that just the normal progression of improving your product. That's what
makes Elecraft such a good concern and their products so good; even tho they
got to the top of the performance heap, they're still working to make their
rigs better. My complaints about the audio notwithstanding, they still did
make it better in the K3S regardless.

That's what really differentiates Elecraft from their competitors, IMHO

73,
LS
W5QD


David and Dianne on Comcast wrote
> After 7 1/2 years with my K3, using all 
> combinations of filters, settings, RX EQ settings, 
> speakers and headphones, last October I finally 
> found the solution to my K3 RX SSB audio 
> displeasure. It's called a TS-590SG.





--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-audio-board-for-K3-upgrade-tp7615426p7615437.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 3/21/2016 7:38 PM, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote:


One thought for those using the 2.7 or 2.8 SSB filters. Try reducing
the DSP bandwidth to 2.4 kHz or so, and shifting the center freq.
down 100 Hz. Many other radios have a 2.4 kHz SSB filter, and while
it does restrict the audio fidelity as compared to the 2.7/2.8 kHz
filters, the reduction in the upper cutoff to 2.4 kHz reduces the
amount of high frequency band noise and interference, which may
account for what some construe as a 'smoother' sound.


Many "traditional" transceivers also have a 3 to 6 dB per octave roll-
off in audio frequency response above 800/1000/1500 Hz (depending on
the manufacturer) which limits the high frequency "crud".

While there are some who have a "religious" opposition to using RX EQ
in the K3/K3S, I've found that setting the 3200 Hz "band" to - 6dB (or
-10dB) greatly helps with the sound on SSB and setting both 2400 and
3200 to -16dB is useful in CW.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Hi Ron,

That review of the K3 audio by Rob Sherwood was on a very early K3. We quickly 
addressed the high freq harmonic issues (most of which were above 4-5 kHz and 
were more than 50-60 dB down) with a K3 DSP board revision that included a 
change to a beefier low ESR power supply filter choke feeding the audio amp and 
the addition of an audio LPF that rolls off above the DSPs max output of 4 kHz. 
We made even more audio improvements to the new K3S DSP board's audio chain.


On another note, Rob has run spectra on the newer K3S DSP and he has noted it is 
substantially improved over the first K3 he tested almost 7 years ago.


One thought for those using the 2.7 or 2.8 SSB filters. Try reducing the DSP 
bandwidth to 2.4 kHz or so, and shifting the center freq. down 100 Hz.  Many 
other radios have a 2.4 kHz SSB filter, and while it does restrict the audio 
fidelity as compared to the 2.7/2.8 kHz filters, the reduction in the upper 
cutoff to 2.4 kHz reduces the amount of high frequency band noise and 
interference, which may account for what some construe as a 'smoother' sound.


Also note that the stock 2.7 kHz filter has a much slower roll off than the 
optional 8 pole 2.8 kHz filter, and as a result may hear more higher frequency 
RX components.


Lastly, try listening with our new external SP3 speaker for the K3S and K3. It 
has an engineered audio response for a very clean and 'smooth' flat response, 
without major resonances.   :-)


73,

Eric
/elecraft.com/

On 3/21/2016 1:59 PM, Ron Castro wrote:

The sounds being described are probably not just related to frequency
response, but to any type of harmonic, intermod or digital distortion, or
noise that is created in the final IF and analog audio stages of the radio.
This was referenced by Rob Sherwood in an early review of the K3 and
demonstrated with an audio spectrum analyzer.  A CW tone with these
characteristics might be described as "raspy", "brassy", "busy", or with
some other term audiophiles like to use, and in any case, would likely lead
to fatigue.

If this is the case, equalization may mask it but won't fix it, and could
make the problem worse.

   Ron Castro
N6IE



__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Grant Youngman]

Sent from my iPhone

> 
> Confused I am.
> 
> Soif SSB audio was not an issue on the K3, then why did Elecraft seek to 
> improve it with the K3S initially touting it as one of the featured benefits 
> of their next generation K3?
> 
> 

They improved the IMD of the AF amps.  A good thing which doesn't mean it was 
an "issue" for most to begin with. 

Time marches on ... 

Grant NQ5T
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Kevin Stover]

Exactly!

I remember the trail of audio tears well.
The difference back then being they had never heard a receiver as good 
as the K3 and all it was picking up compared to their Yaecomwood. 
Couldn't possibly be their favorite old radio had been feeding them the 
RF equivalent of mush and passing it off as "great audio"?


On 3/21/2016 2:20 PM, Doug Turnbull wrote:

Friends,
  Perhaps it is because I largely operate CW but for me the original K3
audio is just lovely.I am 71, my hearing is not so great but I use the
lowest pitch possible around 360 Hz and have RX EQ set for good performance
at low frequencies.   It is just a sweet sound to me and so restful.   Maybe
if I was a phone man the story would be different though I do monitor SSB
and work it for rare DX and it also sounds good.

  Could it be that the great flexibility in setting up the audio results
in some people being put off as they have not found the sweet spot for their
ears.I seem to remember a few years ago many people had troubles with
the FT2000 because it was complex to set up.   There were also people who
did not like the Orion II again because setting the radio up initially was
problematic for them.





--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

[Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[David and Dianne on Comcast]

Confused I am.

Soif SSB audio was not an issue on the K3, 
then why did Elecraft seek to improve it with the 
K3S initially touting it as one of the featured 
benefits of their next generation K3?


This SSB audio debate as been an acknowledged 
issue for many users for a long time...on this 
list and elsewhere. I notice that the December 
2015 revision of the K3S FAQ's now state that the 
revised DSP board for the existing K3 platform 
"may be available later in 2016" which is very 
different that was originally indicated in the 
FAQ's back last year.


After 7 1/2 years with my K3, using all 
combinations of filters, settings, RX EQ settings, 
speakers and headphones, last October I finally 
found the solution to my K3 RX SSB audio 
displeasure. It's called a TS-590SG. And it has 
one-touch-button band stacking registers to boot.


No regrets.

YMMV.

N1LQ-Dave




__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Jim Brown]

On Mon,3/21/2016 12:46 PM, Jim Bolit wrote:

The TS-480 just sounds better to these ears.

Oh, and it is magic


Look at the RX current drain on both radios. A K3 comes in at about 1A, 
1.1A with the new KXV3B preamp or the old PR6 installed. This is the 
result of Wayne's philosophy of optimizing for portable/battery 
operation, and it leaves the speaker output stage a bit low on current 
for those who want/need it loud.


And it's more than frequency response. There's analog distortion, both 
in the electronics and the loudspeaker. And there are distortions 
associated with A/D and D/A conversions, and the number of bits used.


Early production K3s (2008-9) had the design error of placing 600 ohm 
resistance between the line output stage and the transformer, which 
caused the transformer to produce distortion, even at pretty low signal 
levels. Pro audio circuits have not used 600 ohm inputs and outputs for 
at least 40 years, but too many manufacturers of ham gear (and even 
broadcast transmitters) never got the memo. Pro output stages are about 
100 ohms, that value chosen to prevent instability when the stage drives 
the capacitance of a long line, and pro inputs are around 10K (so that 
the output stage driving doesn't have to provide current.


73, Jim K9YC


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Gary Smith]

So true! 

I use tube audio gear. My Audio pre-amplifier is a McIntosh C2500 and 
I regularly use the USB input to its internal digital soundcard. The 
sound from that preamp is magnificent. When I ran the same source to 
a USB soundcard, bypassing the McIntosh digital card, with that  
signal sent to the Mc preamp & then to the amplifier, the audio was 
pitiful in comparison. The difference is remarkable in depth and 
transparency. The better soundcard stands out like a sore thumb. 

The quality of the soundcards do make a tremendous difference and 
with that said; I do prefer the sound of my K3s to the K3.

73,

Gary
KA1J


> Nor does using some non certified soundcard does not sound like the
> path to pristine audio...
> 
> -- 
> 73's, and thanks,
> Dave (NK7Z)

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[lstavenhagen]

Another BTW, I'm definitely not asserting any _distortion_ of the signals or
tones in either radio. Both my K3 and K3S are giving pure clean tones and
voices. My complaints are only centering around (what I believe to be only)
the equalization in the audio, particularly the mid/high frequency noise.
Though as I said the K2 audio is a tough act to follow and I'm a bit spoiled
by it. 

The only time I have any impurities at all are with agressive settings of
the noise blanker or DSP with certain types of wide-band noise, which is
entirely expected.

So just want to clarify that I'm not describing any distortion products at
all. Just aging hearing mostly hi hi..

73,
LS
W5QD



--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-audio-board-for-K3-upgrade-tp7615346p7615423.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Ron Castro]

The sounds being described are probably not just related to frequency
response, but to any type of harmonic, intermod or digital distortion, or
noise that is created in the final IF and analog audio stages of the radio.
This was referenced by Rob Sherwood in an early review of the K3 and
demonstrated with an audio spectrum analyzer.  A CW tone with these
characteristics might be described as "raspy", "brassy", "busy", or with
some other term audiophiles like to use, and in any case, would likely lead
to fatigue.  

If this is the case, equalization may mask it but won't fix it, and could
make the problem worse.

  Ron Castro
   N6IE
www.N6IE.com

Member:
  ARRL
 Redwood Empire DX Assn.
 Northern California Contest Club
Northern California DX Foundation
  Society of Broadcast Engineers



-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jim
Bolit
Sent: March 21, 2016 12:46 PM
To: 'Bill'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

My TS-480 also sounds better than my K3.  My K3 was sent back to factory to
see if there was an audio issue with my particular K3.  They compared mine
to a factory unit, using an audio spectrum analyzer and noted that my K3 and
a new factory K3 were "the same".

The TS-480 just sounds better to these ears.

Oh, and it is magic

Jim
W6AIM

.


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Edward R Cole]

My two cents:

Never cared much for audio quality of the internal K3 speaker.  I use 
a very old 8-inch round National Radio speaker (probably 4-ohm as was 
most of the 1950 era stuff).


But when I need to dig out a signal from the noise I use my trusty 
SONY MDR-V600 headset (definitely used for CW).


I'm looking forward to when I next purchase hearing aids and will get 
blue-tooth capability to directly listen to the radio without use of 
speaker/headset...probably a couple years away on that.


My KX3 uses West Mountain Radio COMspkr's

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Grant Youngman]

Well .. I'd get a headache listening to most ANYTHING after 4-5 hours.  The 
symphony in Bass Hall, or even good vinyl on a great turntable/arm/cartridge 
and a very good amp and very good headphones is no different.  

Maybe I just found the "right" speakers for my K3.  They're old RatShack (RCA) 
speakers with linaeum tweeters.  I have a lot of them, and use them on 
everything (new, old) in the shack.   I've never  found a powered set of 
"computer" speakers worth bothering with ... and I've tried quite a few not so 
cheapie ones, or the usual-suspect ham speakers.  I haven't tried the Elecraft 
offering yet, but probably will at some point. 

After the LPF daughter-board update (or rev D DSP) I haven't had an issue with 
anything related to K3 audio.  And certainly nothing I'd call a "screech".   
The internal speaker is the speaker of last resort. My RX EQ is set to flat. 

That said, I'd still probably buy the updated DSP board for the improved IMD 
performance. Just because 

Grant NQ5T

Sent from my iPhone

> 
> I can't define "fatiguing" either, but running AFSK at 915 Hz MARK, I start 
> getting a headache after 4 or 5 hours.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Jim Bolit]

My TS-480 also sounds better than my K3.  My K3 was sent back to factory to
see if there was an audio issue with my particular K3.  They compared mine
to a factory unit, using an audio spectrum analyzer and noted that my K3 and
a new factory K3 were "the same".

The TS-480 just sounds better to these ears.

Oh, and it is magic

Jim
W6AIM

.

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:35 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

I have always felt the K3 was a looser in the audio department - but, with
the many menu settings available - most of the problem can be mitigated.

There a lot of things that can be done with the menu settings on the K3
(presumably on the K3S also) that effect the RX audio - EQ settings, AGC
settings, etc. I have posted my favorite settings in the past - it took
weeks and weeks of tinkering to find settings for common armchair copy
listening. I do use Behringer MS40 speakers also (no RF problems ever
experienced).

The really sad part: My Kenwood TS480 out "sounds" my K3 right out of the
box. Just saying a fact, so no flames please.

Bill W2BLC K-Line


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
delivered to jbol...@outlook.com

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Fred Jensen]

That's been my experience too, "really great sound" is somewhat akin to 
pornography ... as Justice Stewart said, "Impossible to objectively 
define but I know it when I see [or hear] it."  I inherited an SX-28 
with the large bass reflex speaker a number of years ago.  As a ham 
receiver in the 21st century, it left a lot to be desired, but it really 
"sounded" great on BC stations, and those stations on 75 at night 
pretending to be BC stations.  I can't define "fatiguing" either, but 
running AFSK at 915 Hz MARK, I start getting a headache after 4 or 5 hours.


My hearing is severely compromised, and I never use the internal K3 
speaker and have never had anything plugged into the EXT SPKR jack.  I 
have a Heil Proset from Elecraft and recently acquired a David Clark 
aviation headset.  K9YC gave me a tip on the RX EQ to get the equivalent 
of about 30 dB of equalization out of it.  My settings approximate one 
of the "programs" in my hearing aids [30 dB isn't nearly enough but it 
helps] sufficiently that I can dabble in NAQP and SS SSB.


73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2016
- www.cqp.org

On 3/21/2016 12:06 PM, Dave Cole wrote:

Berry,

Actually it is quite complicated to define what is wrong with the
"sound" of something...  What makes audio "fatiguing", exactly?  I
can't say, and no amount of listening to it, or playing with the EQ has
fixed it in my case...



Nor does using some non certified soundcard does not sound like the
path to pristine audio...



__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Doug Turnbull]

Friends,
 Perhaps it is because I largely operate CW but for me the original K3
audio is just lovely.I am 71, my hearing is not so great but I use the
lowest pitch possible around 360 Hz and have RX EQ set for good performance
at low frequencies.   It is just a sweet sound to me and so restful.   Maybe
if I was a phone man the story would be different though I do monitor SSB
and work it for rare DX and it also sounds good.

 Could it be that the great flexibility in setting up the audio results
in some people being put off as they have not found the sweet spot for their
ears.I seem to remember a few years ago many people had troubles with
the FT2000 because it was complex to set up.   There were also people who
did not like the Orion II again because setting the radio up initially was
problematic for them.   

 Now I may be completely wrong in my analysis of this situation and
please God no one feels their toes have been trampled.   This is not my
purpose but for me the radio has a wonderful warm sound.   We are all
different.   Some people like a Sicilian Pizza while others like a
Neapolitan Pizza.

73 Doug EI2CN

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of
lstavenhagen
Sent: 21 March 2016 16:00
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

Well I don't want to complain _real_ loud either lol. The audio on the K3S
really is better. But only slightly - not better enough to spend money on an
upgrade for the K3, imo, which is kind of what I was responding to.
Basically, save the money for filters, etc

A good set of hi-fi headphones helps too, but I definitely still tire of my
K3S in a fairly short time even with headphones, especially if the band is
noisy. I find myself engaging the DSP and monkeying around with it rather
than concentrating on QSOs to try to relieve my poor ears on a noisy band.
Course it's even worse with my K3 lol. I've not found the equalizer to help
that much either with either rig.

Might just be my aging ears too, so take my comments with a grain of salt.
And when I'm /p, I'm usually at around 10,000 feet above sea level out in
the woods miles away from industrial noise sources. My K2, K3 and K3S are
all quiet as mice in those conditions, but by far my K2 is the preferred rig
to run there, even without the creature comforts of the K3/K3S

73,
W5QD



--
View this message in context:
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-audio-board-for-K3-upgrade-tp761534
6p7615385.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to turnb...@net1.ie

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Dave Cole]

Berry,

Actually it is quite complicated to define what is wrong with the
"sound" of something...  What makes audio "fatiguing", exactly?  I
can't say, and no amount of listening to it, or playing with the EQ has
fixed it in my case...  

I used to work in a recording studio, as a mix engineer, (way back
when), and recently was in charge of the construction a Dolby
certified, (almost fully digital), mix down room for movie sound design
a few years ago...  This was one of those rooms within a room on rubber
bumpers sort of thing...  So I know a bit about audio.

Nor does using some non certified soundcard does not sound like the
path to pristine audio...

-- 
73's, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)

For software/hardware reviews see:
http://www.nk7z.net

For MixW support see:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info

For SSTV help see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info


On Mon, 2016-03-21 at 09:49 -0700, N1EU wrote:
> lstavenhagen wrote
> > 
> > I dunno, the K3S audio actually isn't much better to my ears. Yes,
> > it's a
> > little better on my K3S compared to my K3, but still kind of shrill
> > and
> > fatiguing to listen to for long periods of time. 
> In this day and age, with PC soundcards and excellent freeware audio
> spectrum analysis software (like Visual Analyser), I wouldn't settle
> for
> subjective opinions like "shrill and fatiguing."  Feed whatever audio
> output
> you're listening to into your soundcard and run a passband plot of
> your
> favored radio against the K3s and TELL US why you don't like the K3s
> sound. 
> And then "fix it" (i.e., your preferred sound) with the filter and EQ
> controls.  I'm assuming, of course, that you're listening through the
> same
> speakers or headphones on both radios.
> 
> Folks, this ain't rocket science or magic.
> 
> 73, Barry N1EU
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3
> S-audio-board-for-K3-upgrade-tp7615346p7615393.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> 
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to d...@nk7z.net
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[lstavenhagen]

All excellent points. My personal fix is to use my K2 at home where the band
noise is bad (I refuse to mix computers and ham radio at the same time, so
this may not be the fix you have in mind :) ), but when I'm /p, it's a
non-issue. I use all 3 of my rigs when portable with no audio issues.

73,
LS
W5QD


N1EU wrote
> My point was that free tools are readily available to all of us to conduct
> a quick investigation into exactly what the sound differences are and to
> tailor the sound of a K3/K3s to our liking.  There's absolutely no reason
> to continue to use a radio that is "shrill and fatiguing."  By all means,
> investigate it, adjust it and FIX it.
> 
> 73, Barry N1EU
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:

> Elecraft@.qth

> 
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to 

> lists+1215531472858-365791@.nabble





--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-audio-board-for-K3-upgrade-tp7615346p7615406.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Barry N1EU]

On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 1:28 PM, lstavenhagen 
wrote:

>  I stand by "shrill and fatiguing", :), but I concede that's just a
> personal judgment based on
> my particular hearing.



My point was that free tools are readily available to all of us to conduct
a quick investigation into exactly what the sound differences are and to
tailor the sound of a K3/K3s to our liking.  There's absolutely no reason
to continue to use a radio that is "shrill and fatiguing."  By all means,
investigate it, adjust it and FIX it.

73, Barry N1EU
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Bill]

I have always felt the K3 was a looser in the audio department - but, 
with the many menu settings available - most of the problem can be 
mitigated.


There a lot of things that can be done with the menu settings on the K3 
(presumably on the K3S also) that effect the RX audio - EQ settings, AGC 
settings, etc. I have posted my favorite settings in the past - it took 
weeks and weeks of tinkering to find settings for common armchair copy 
listening. I do use Behringer MS40 speakers also (no RF problems ever 
experienced).


The really sad part: My Kenwood TS480 out "sounds" my K3 right out of 
the box. Just saying a fact, so no flames please.


Bill W2BLC K-Line


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[lstavenhagen]

Ok thanks for the suggestions, Don. I should also mention that the other
posters are quite right to call for objective, independent measurements to
verify impressionistic judgments like my earlier ones. I stand by "shrill
and fatiguing", :), but I concede that's just a personal judgment based on
my particular hearing.

I'll take a look at the AGC settings, though to be quite honest, I think
they're already ideal on both my K3 and K3S. I can't see how the AGC on
either could be any better? 

Thanks es 73,
W5QD



--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-audio-board-for-K3-upgrade-tp7615346p7615400.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Don Wilhelm]

LS,

If your problem is more related to "band noise", you may want to 
investigate the AGC Threshold and Slope settings on the K3 and K3s.
To my ears, the K3/K3S sounds a bit 'noisy' with the default AGC 
settings.  Increasing the Threshold and decreasing the slope may help.
For information on evaluating the results of any changes, refer to the 
"Noisy K3" article on my website www.w3fpr.com.
Pay particular attention to the points about observing the results 
during pauses in a transmission.   Attempting to listen only to the band 
noise with no signal present will result in changing the settings in 
exactly the wrong way.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/21/2016 12:57 PM, lstavenhagen wrote:

As for the why's and wherefore's of what I don't like, I've noted that in my
other responses. Again, for me, it's the upper mid kind of rasp of the band
noise that I find to be similar between the two rigs. And what I find to be
much better on the K2.




__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[lstavenhagen]

My apologies fellers, I didn't mean to turn this into a
let's-bash-the-K3S-audio thread LOL. Probably what I should have said is
something less absolute. Perhaps something like I personally don't notice
much of a difference between my K3 and K3S but that doesn't mean there isn't
a difference period that noone else will notice.

As for the why's and wherefore's of what I don't like, I've noted that in my
other responses. Again, for me, it's the upper mid kind of rasp of the band
noise that I find to be similar between the two rigs. And what I find to be
much better on the K2.

Again, just my observations - I didn't mean to sound like I'm making general
statements, that's my fault for which I duly apologize.

73,
LS
W5QD.


N1EU wrote
> In this day and age, with PC soundcards and excellent freeware audio
> spectrum analysis software (like Visual Analyser), I wouldn't settle for
> subjective opinions like "shrill and fatiguing."  Feed whatever audio
> output you're listening to into your soundcard and run a passband plot of
> your favored radio against the K3s and TELL US why you don't like the K3s
> sound.  And then "fix it" (i.e., your preferred sound) with the filter and
> EQ controls.  I'm assuming, of course, that you're listening through the
> same speakers or headphones on both radios.
> 
> Folks, this ain't rocket science or magic.
> 
> 73, Barry N1EU





--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-audio-board-for-K3-upgrade-tp7615346p7615394.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[N1EU]

lstavenhagen wrote
> I dunno, the K3S audio actually isn't much better to my ears. Yes, it's a
> little better on my K3S compared to my K3, but still kind of shrill and
> fatiguing to listen to for long periods of time. 

In this day and age, with PC soundcards and excellent freeware audio
spectrum analysis software (like Visual Analyser), I wouldn't settle for
subjective opinions like "shrill and fatiguing."  Feed whatever audio output
you're listening to into your soundcard and run a passband plot of your
favored radio against the K3s and TELL US why you don't like the K3s sound. 
And then "fix it" (i.e., your preferred sound) with the filter and EQ
controls.  I'm assuming, of course, that you're listening through the same
speakers or headphones on both radios.

Folks, this ain't rocket science or magic.

73, Barry N1EU




--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-audio-board-for-K3-upgrade-tp7615346p7615393.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[lstavenhagen]

I use both the internal speaker and a set of Sony headphones (not comm.
style, but basic hi-fi, can't remember the model number offhand) on
primarily CW but on very rare occasions I'll go up to the SSB bands from
time to time for listening/entertainment purposes. I do own a microphone,
but I'm not sure where it is right now.

But speaking of SSB, I will say that SSB is where the difference from the K3
is most noticeable, even through the internal speaker. Not an order of
magnitude better, but noticeable. So for you voice ops it may be a more
worthy upgrade? Voices are definitely flatter and smoother sounding through
the K3S.

For casual listening and for comparison with my K3, I run the BW at 2.7khz
with the center at the stock 1.5khz (IIRC). As I noted above, it's in SSB
signals that I suppose there's a more noticeable difference but the regular
noise when operating CW still has approximately the same shrill quality on
both rigs (headphones and internal speaker). It's hard to quantify, but it's
just has that harsh, upper midrange kind of rasp that the K3 has as well.

For equalization, I've tried reducing the upper mids and boosting the lows
to emulate my K2, but it doesn't really replicate the K2 regardless of
settings. So I just leave those flat.

Finally, I should mention I do have some mild hearing damage from many years
as a musician, so I just may be more sensitive to heavy mids/upper mids
types of equalization than others. So again, just take my comments with a
grain of salt. Just because I can't hear much improvement doesn't mean there
isn't an improvement or that others won't benefit from it :).

73,
LS
W5QD

Jim Brown-10 wrote
> Do you listen on the internal speaker or on headphones? CW or SSB? Have 
> you used RX EQ to shape the tonal balance? How do you set the IF 
> bandwidth and centering? If headphones, which type/model? If external 
> speaker, which one?
> 
> I'm retired from a career in pro audio, including lots of live 
> recordings of acoustic jazz. My operating style is to use the speaker 
> only for casual monitoring when I'm doing something else in the shack, 
> and to help me tune in digital signals. I listen mostly on headphones, 
> both Yamaha CM500 and Sony MDR7506. The Sony headphones are widely used 
> in recording studios, and the sound of the CM500 is pretty close in 
> sound quality. I'm quite satisfied with the sound of my original K3s. I 
> don't use any RXEQ at all.
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:

> Elecraft@.qth

> 
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to 

> lists+1215531472858-365791@.nabble





--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-audio-board-for-K3-upgrade-tp7615346p7615392.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Jim Brown]

On Mon,3/21/2016 7:55 AM, lstavenhagen wrote:

I dunno, the K3S audio actually isn't much better to my ears. Yes, it's a
little better on my K3S compared to my K3, but still kind of shrill and
fatiguing to listen to for long periods of time.


Do you listen on the internal speaker or on headphones? CW or SSB? Have 
you used RX EQ to shape the tonal balance? How do you set the IF 
bandwidth and centering? If headphones, which type/model? If external 
speaker, which one?


I'm retired from a career in pro audio, including lots of live 
recordings of acoustic jazz. My operating style is to use the speaker 
only for casual monitoring when I'm doing something else in the shack, 
and to help me tune in digital signals. I listen mostly on headphones, 
both Yamaha CM500 and Sony MDR7506. The Sony headphones are widely used 
in recording studios, and the sound of the CM500 is pretty close in 
sound quality. I'm quite satisfied with the sound of my original K3s. I 
don't use any RXEQ at all.


73, Jim K9YC
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Jerry Moore]

Change the audio equalizer settings for received audio. When using a headset
you can tune the audio to your ears pretty well. 
If you don't know what I'm talking about check the owner's manual  page 37,

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bert
Craig
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:17 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net; lstavenhagen
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

Soundly seconded! I love the amazingly quiet noise floor and the K2's
ability to dig out the weak signals. It's a very pleasant rig to listen to.

Vy 73 de Bert
WA2SI 

Sent from my android device.

-Original Message-
From: lstavenhagen <lstavenha...@hotmail.com>
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:55
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

I dunno, the K3S audio actually isn't much better to my ears. Yes, it's a
little better on my K3S compared to my K3, but still kind of shrill and
fatiguing to listen to for long periods of time. I'm not sure it'd be worth
spending a ton of money on to upgrade if there was an upgrade path. 

Don't get me wrong, I love my K3S; the best rig you can buy, IMO. But I
still strongly prefer the smooth, low sounding audio of my K2. I never get
tired of it

LS
W5QD



--
View this message in context:
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-audio-board-for-K3-upgrade-tp761534
6p7615381.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
delivered to wa...@arrl.net
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
delivered to je...@carolinaheli.com

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[lstavenhagen]

Well I don't want to complain _real_ loud either lol. The audio on the K3S
really is better. But only slightly - not better enough to spend money on an
upgrade for the K3, imo, which is kind of what I was responding to.
Basically, save the money for filters, etc

A good set of hi-fi headphones helps too, but I definitely still tire of my
K3S in a fairly short time even with headphones, especially if the band is
noisy. I find myself engaging the DSP and monkeying around with it rather
than concentrating on QSOs to try to relieve my poor ears on a noisy band.
Course it's even worse with my K3 lol. I've not found the equalizer to help
that much either with either rig.

Might just be my aging ears too, so take my comments with a grain of salt.
And when I'm /p, I'm usually at around 10,000 feet above sea level out in
the woods miles away from industrial noise sources. My K2, K3 and K3S are
all quiet as mice in those conditions, but by far my K2 is the preferred rig
to run there, even without the creature comforts of the K3/K3S

73,
W5QD



--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-audio-board-for-K3-upgrade-tp7615346p7615385.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Dave Cole]

Does a decent speaker and amp being fed from the speaker out sound any
better?  I have a computer speaker on the K3 now, and I also want
better sound...
-- 
73's, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)

For software/hardware reviews see:
http://www.nk7z.net

For MixW support see:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info

For SSTV help see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info


On Mon, 2016-03-21 at 11:16 -0400, Bert Craig wrote:
> Soundly seconded! I love the amazingly quiet noise floor and the K2's
> ability to dig out the weak signals. It's a very pleasant rig to
> listen to.
> 
> Vy 73 de Bert 
> WA2SI 
> 
> Sent from my android device.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: lstavenhagen <lstavenha...@hotmail.com>
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:55
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?
> 
> I dunno, the K3S audio actually isn't much better to my ears. Yes,
> it's a
> little better on my K3S compared to my K3, but still kind of shrill
> and
> fatiguing to listen to for long periods of time. I'm not sure it'd be
> worth
> spending a ton of money on to upgrade if there was an upgrade path. 
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I love my K3S; the best rig you can buy, IMO. But
> I
> still strongly prefer the smooth, low sounding audio of my K2. I
> never get
> tired of it
> 
> LS
> W5QD
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3
> S-audio-board-for-K3-upgrade-tp7615346p7615381.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> 
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to wa...@arrl.net
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> 
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to d...@nk7z.net
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Bert Craig]

Soundly seconded! I love the amazingly quiet noise floor and the K2's ability 
to dig out the weak signals. It's a very pleasant rig to listen to.

Vy 73 de Bert 
WA2SI 

Sent from my android device.

-Original Message-
From: lstavenhagen <lstavenha...@hotmail.com>
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:55
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

I dunno, the K3S audio actually isn't much better to my ears. Yes, it's a
little better on my K3S compared to my K3, but still kind of shrill and
fatiguing to listen to for long periods of time. I'm not sure it'd be worth
spending a ton of money on to upgrade if there was an upgrade path. 

Don't get me wrong, I love my K3S; the best rig you can buy, IMO. But I
still strongly prefer the smooth, low sounding audio of my K2. I never get
tired of it

LS
W5QD



--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-audio-board-for-K3-upgrade-tp7615346p7615381.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to wa...@arrl.net
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[lstavenhagen]

I dunno, the K3S audio actually isn't much better to my ears. Yes, it's a
little better on my K3S compared to my K3, but still kind of shrill and
fatiguing to listen to for long periods of time. I'm not sure it'd be worth
spending a ton of money on to upgrade if there was an upgrade path. 

Don't get me wrong, I love my K3S; the best rig you can buy, IMO. But I
still strongly prefer the smooth, low sounding audio of my K2. I never get
tired of it

LS
W5QD



--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-audio-board-for-K3-upgrade-tp7615346p7615381.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[GRANT YOUNGMAN]

Good question.  It’s the DSP board from the K3S (the performance difference 
being the audio).  Maybe a supply issue, still (?).

Grant NQ5T
K3 #2091, KX3 #8342




> On Mar 19, 2016, at 7:23 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV  wrote:
> 
> Haven't heard about this for a while. Supposed to be cleaner audio and
> higher power audio output. Any word?
> 

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

[Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Haven't heard about this for a while. Supposed to be cleaner audio and
higher power audio output. Any word?

73, Guy K2AV
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com