Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[john]

Interesting post Frank and perfect timing after trying to work  
stations with my K3S loaded with SSB roofing filters through the heavy  
QRM during last weekend's WPX Phone contest. My head still hurts:) I  
was not aware that you use "other" radios on SSB.


John KK9A


Frank W3LPL wrote:


You would have to seriously compete in an SSB contest with some of the
more modern radios in very crowded bands to fully appreciate how much
better the more modern technologies are for both transmit and receive signal
quality. The latest Flex radios are almost shockingly good, but all of the
top-shelf modern radios are significantly better performers than the
12 year old K3 or even the K3S.



We're discussing the most demanding situations affecting SSB transceiver
performance: weak -- often distorted -- SSB signals surrounded by
much stronger adjacent channel QRM. For much of the time on
20 and especially 40 meters the adjacent much stronger signals overlap
well into the receiver bandwidth. Typical spacing between SSB signals
is only 1.5 kHz, if you're lucky its 2.0 kHz and only rarely 2.5 kHz or more.
This situation is rather unimportant for the casual contester, but its a
game changer at the upper levels of serious SSB contest competition.


I have not made technical measurements of K3 SSB transmitter and
receiver performance nor do I have the capability to do so. I suspect the
more modern designs have improved the dynamic response of their entire
receiver and transmitter chain in ways that can't be captured by simple
static performance measurements such as frequency response, dynamic range
and IMD.


73
Frank
W3LPL

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Fred Jensen]

Engineering is the Science and Art of managing theoretical, mechanical, 
logistic, economic, ergonomic, and aesthetic tradeoffs.


73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 3/29/2020 10:45 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
But that all depends on the parts you can buy for a product that must 
sell for a price that customers can pay, and, as you've noted, those 
design decisions were likely made in 2006. And from where I sit, I've 
always viewed Wayne and Eric as marketing geniuses (in the best sense 
of that).


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Edward R Cole]

Probably not add much of value to this discussion.

When I first got my K3 in 2010 using the internal speaker the SSB 
audio seemed harsh.  So didn't take me long to hook up my old 10-inch 
1950's era National speaker (made a lot of difference).  For 
demanding operation (usually meaning working very weak signals) I use 
a stereo headset.


73, Ed - KL7UW
  http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  dubus...@gmail.com 


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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Clay Autery]

Thanks for the response...  As I am not a "contesting expert", I have no 
opinion on the topic that I wish to put forward publicly.
I am actually "afraid" to get too enamored with contesting as my DNA has 
a tendency to drive me to extremes in anything I develop a passion for


 which is pretty much everything I put my hand to.  And I'm pretty 
fond of talking to and sleeping with my XYL...  



73,

__
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(318) 518-1389

On 03/30/20 00:34, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

Hi Clay,

This thread is a discussion about the relative performance of 
top-of-the-line

modern transceivers in the most demanding situations faced by serious SSB
contest competitors.  The vast majority of transceiver users have no 
concerns

about the performance of their transceiver under these conditions.

We're discussing the most demanding situations affecting transceiver
performance: weak -- often distorted -- SSB signals surrounded by
much stronger adjacent channel QRM.  For much of the time on
20 and especially 40 meters the adjacent much stronger signals overlap
well into the receiver bandwidth.   Typical spacing between SSB signals
is only 1.5 kHz, if you're lucky its 2.0 kHz and only rarely 2.5 kHz 
or more.

This situation is rather unimportant for the casual contester, but its a
game changer at the upper levels of serious SSB contest competition.

For transmitted SSB signals we're concerned about situations where our
transmitted signal is relatively weak and surrounded by much stronger
adjacent channel QRM. The adjacent signals usually overlap well into the
transmitted signal bandwidth and the other operator's receiver has
much lower performance that our top-of-the-line radio.

73
Frank
W3LPL



*From: *"Clay Autery" 
*To: *elecraft@mailman.qth.net
*Sent: *Monday, March 30, 2020 5:20:31 AM
*Subject: *Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

What is this "better" SSB performance of which you speak.

I am primarily a voice guy  And I am constantly complimented on the
quality of my transmissions.

How are defining "better" SSB performance?

73,

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
(318) 518-1389

On 03/29/20 11:32, donov...@starpower.net wrote:
> This is by far not an unbiased survey. Teams that travel on airplanes to
> get to WRTC will be strongly biased toward light weight radios such as
> the K3. Operators who do not travel by a irplane will be biased towards
> radios with much better SSB performance.
>
>
> 73
> Frank
> W3LPL
>
> - Original Message -
>
> From: "K9FD" 
> To: "Paul Gacek" 
> Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 4:26:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...
>
> I agree Paul, and my comment was to play the stats in jest.
>
> when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides,
>
> I did that to stir the Elecraft kool aide crew.
>
> Having contested many many years in my past life, I dont own
> 3 - K3 radios because they are losers, and nope I am not in the
> class of any one who qualifies for WRTC. not even close,
> and at 75 I am not progressing any longer, I am on the slipping
> side of downhill.
>
> 73 Merv K9FD
>
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[donovanf]

Hi Jim, 


You're probably correct about design compromises made with technologies 
available and affordable 14 years ago. Its probably not a coincidence 
that all of the top-shelf modern radios have a leg up on the K3 in 
the most severe competitive contest environments 


Think about what less than 14 years of improvement brought to the market 
in the post-World War II environment and the vast performance differential 
between the offerings from Collins and every one of their competitors: 
- 75A-1 1947 
- 75A-4 1956 
- KWM-1 1957 
- S-Line 1958 


Its amazing that the amateur radio HF transceiver market continues to drive 
significant performance improvements after all these years, just as it did 
from the earliest days of HF radio. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "Jim Brown"  
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 5:45:21 AM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

On 3/29/2020 10:02 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: 
> You would have to seriously compete in an SSB contest with some of the 
> more modern radios in very crowded bands to fully appreciate how much 
> better the more modern technologies are for both transmit and receive signal 
> quality. The latest Flex radios are almost shockingly good, but all of the 
> top-shelf modern radios are significantly better performers than the 
> 12 year old K3 or even the K3S. 

Thanks Frank. Soon after he got his Flex 6700, his two key impressions 
were 1) it was the best radio he'd ever owned; and 2) the designers of 
the radio and it's software/firmware didn't have a clue about USING 
radios on the air. #2 was so bad that they didn't even understand the 
problems. Thankfully, guys like N6WM, K9CT, and I'm sure others, stepped 
in to educate them. :) 

I'm not a digital guy, but having worked in pro audio most of my 
professional life, some concepts have rubbed off. If I were to speculate 
on the shortcomings of the K3/K3S you've noted, it would be that the 
system wasn't designed with enough bits and bandwidth. But that all 
depends on the parts you can buy for a product that must sell for a 
price that customers can pay, and, as you've noted, those design 
decisions were likely made in 2006. And from where I sit, I've always 
viewed Wayne and Eric as marketing geniuses (in the best sense of that). 

73, Jim K9YC 
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Jim Brown]

On 3/29/2020 10:45 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

Thanks Frank. Soon after he got his Flex 6700, his two key impressions were


I failed to identify the speaker -- it was K6TD, a fine engineer, 
serious contester, and veteran of multiple DX trips.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Jim Brown]

On 3/29/2020 10:02 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

You would have to seriously compete in an SSB contest with some of the
more modern radios in very crowded bands to fully appreciate how much
better the more modern technologies are for both transmit and receive signal
quality. The latest Flex radios are almost shockingly good, but all of the
top-shelf modern radios are significantly better performers than the
12 year old K3 or even the K3S.


Thanks Frank. Soon after he got his Flex 6700, his two key impressions 
were 1) it was the best radio he'd ever owned; and 2) the designers of 
the radio and it's software/firmware didn't have a clue about USING 
radios on the air. #2 was so bad that they didn't even understand the 
problems. Thankfully, guys like N6WM, K9CT, and I'm sure others, stepped 
in to educate them. :)


I'm not a digital guy, but having worked in pro audio most of my 
professional life, some concepts have rubbed off. If I were to speculate 
on the shortcomings of the K3/K3S you've noted, it would be that the 
system wasn't designed with enough bits and bandwidth. But that all 
depends on the parts you can buy for a product that must sell for a 
price that customers can pay, and, as you've noted, those design 
decisions were likely made in 2006. And from where I sit, I've always 
viewed Wayne and Eric as marketing geniuses (in the best sense of that).


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Clay Autery]

Bottom Line:  As in many things  "It's the Indian, not the arrow."  
Though, I still prefer to have the best bow and arrow that I can 
possibly afford.


And as for me, "mission accomplished".   (100% self-funded) 

73,

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
(318) 518-1389

On 03/29/20 15:35, Jack Brindle via Elecraft wrote:

There is a catch in this, of course. Several of the top contesters are 
sponsored by some of the radio companies. The winner in the 2014 WRTC was 
sponsored by Icom as were many others.
The same was true in 2018. Of course, they get the best radios, delivered at 
the competition. Thus the radio choice tends to be biased by the fact that the 
contesters may not be paying for their radios, or having to hand-carry them to 
the competition.

As for the winners, we have seen many times that the contesters who are most 
familiar with propagation in the area where the competition is held will win. 
This was true in Massachusetts, Germany, and will undoubtedly be true in Italy. 
The top guys travel to the areas to get a feel for propagation, but having 
experience there for a long time makes a huge difference.
In WRTC, it isn’t so much the radio, but rather the experience in the zone that 
matter the most. Radios, logging software, antennas, etc are pretty much even. 
The ops themselves make the big difference.


73!
Jack, W6FB


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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[donovanf]

Clay, 


If you're not a serious SSB contest competitor this thread has no 
relevance to your experience or needs. Try SSB contesting at the 
highest levels of competitiveness and you'll soon become aware of 
the important performance differences among modern transceivers. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 


- Original Message -

From: "Clay Autery"  
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 5:21:54 AM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

Again, out of curiosity. How do you define "better"? 

__ 
Clay Autery, KY5G 
(318) 518-1389 

On 03/29/20 11:56, donov...@starpower.net wrote: 
> Hi Tony 
> 
> 
> Any of the top-of-the-line radios from Flex, Icom, Yaesu and Kenwood 
> have significantly better SSB performance than the K3. 
> 
> 
> Each of my six stations has two radios, usually a K3 and a "not K3," 
> usually a Yaesu FTdx5000. During CW contests our "run" operators 
> usually favor the K3, during SSB contests our "run" operators NEVER 
> favor the K3. 
> 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: tony@verizon.net  
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 12:40 PM 
> To: 'donov...@starpower.net' ; 
> 'Elecraft@mailman.qth.net'  
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 
> 
> Hi Frank, 
> I agree with what you said about CW rigs and lightweight rigs for traveling. 
> The K3 on SSB sure has its faults. What say you on the top SSB rigs? 
> 
> Also, since no Dayton and the idea of a contest that weekend is a good idea. 
> But maybe we should consider some kind of virtual hospitality suite so we can 
> have a beer or two plus chat. 
> N2TK, Tony 
> 
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
> Behalf Of donov...@starpower.net 
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 12:33 PM 
> To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 
> 
> This is by far not an unbiased survey. Teams that travel on airplanes to get 
> to WRTC will be strongly biased toward light weight radios such as the K3. 
> Operators who do not travel by a irplane will be biased towards radios with 
> much better SSB performance. 
> 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> 
> From: "K9FD"  
> To: "Paul Gacek"  
> Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 4:26:55 PM 
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 
> 
> I agree Paul, and my comment was to play the stats in jest. 
> 
> when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides, 
> 
> I did that to stir the Elecraft kool aide crew. 
> 
> Having contested many many years in my past life, I dont own 
> 3 - K3 radios because they are losers, and nope I am not in the class of any 
> one who qualifies for WRTC. not even close, and at 75 I am not progressing 
> any longer, I am on the slipping side of downhill. 
> 
> 73 Merv K9FD 
>> Merv 
>> 
>> Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to 
>> tell you! 
>> 
>> In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the 
>> top 15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM 
>> et al possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus 
>> Elecraft which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to 
>> return to Cal for repair. Just a guess  
>> 
>> I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams 
>> placing. I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage. 
>> 
>> I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
>> awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!! 
>> 
>> Stats are fun. 
>> 
>> Paul Gacek 
>> 
>>> On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote: 
>>> 
>>> SO lets see, we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft, and out of 
>>> the top 3 no one did, and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom. 
>>> So was it the radio or the operator? 
>>> If you look at it from one point of view, loosers used Elecraft.. 
>>> 
>>> Merv K9FD, and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
>>>> Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu. 
>>>> 
>>>> Wes N7WS 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote: 
>>>>> I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mike va3mw 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
&g

Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[donovanf]

Hi Clay, 


This thread is a discussion about the relative performance of top-of-the-line 
modern transceivers in the most demanding situations faced by serious SSB 
contest competitors. The vast majority of transceiver users have no concerns 
about the performance of their transceiver under these conditions. 




We're discussing the most demanding situations affecting transceiver 
performance: weak -- often distorted -- SSB signals surrounded by 
much stronger adjacent channel QRM. For much of the time on 
20 and especially 40 meters the adjacent much stronger signals overlap 
well into the receiver bandwidth. Typical spacing between SSB signals 
is only 1.5 kHz, if you're lucky its 2.0 kHz and only rarely 2.5 kHz or more. 
This situation is rather unimportant for the casual contester, but its a 
game changer at the upper levels of serious SSB contest competition. 


For transmitted SSB signals we're concerned about situations where our 
transmitted signal is relatively weak and surrounded by much stronger 
adjacent channel QRM. The adjacent signals usually overlap well into the 
transmitted signal bandwidth and the other operator's receiver has 
much lower performance that our top-of-the-line radio. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 



- Original Message -

From: "Clay Autery"  
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 5:20:31 AM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

What is this "better" SSB performance of which you speak. 

I am primarily a voice guy And I am constantly complimented on the 
quality of my transmissions. 

How are defining "better" SSB performance? 

73, 

__ 
Clay Autery, KY5G 
(318) 518-1389 

On 03/29/20 11:32, donov...@starpower.net wrote: 
> This is by far not an unbiased survey. Teams that travel on airplanes to 
> get to WRTC will be strongly biased toward light weight radios such as 
> the K3. Operators who do not travel by a irplane will be biased towards 
> radios with much better SSB performance. 
> 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> 
> From: "K9FD"  
> To: "Paul Gacek"  
> Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 4:26:55 PM 
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 
> 
> I agree Paul, and my comment was to play the stats in jest. 
> 
> when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides, 
> 
> I did that to stir the Elecraft kool aide crew. 
> 
> Having contested many many years in my past life, I dont own 
> 3 - K3 radios because they are losers, and nope I am not in the 
> class of any one who qualifies for WRTC. not even close, 
> and at 75 I am not progressing any longer, I am on the slipping 
> side of downhill. 
> 
> 73 Merv K9FD 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Clay Autery]

Again, out of curiosity.  How do you define "better"?

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
(318) 518-1389

On 03/29/20 11:56, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

Hi Tony


Any of the top-of-the-line radios from Flex, Icom, Yaesu and Kenwood
have significantly better SSB performance than the K3.


Each of my six stations has two radios, usually a K3 and a "not K3,"
usually a Yaesu FTdx5000. During CW contests our "run" operators
usually favor the K3, during SSB contests our "run" operators NEVER
favor the K3.


73
Frank
W3LPL



-Original Message-
From: tony@verizon.net 
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 12:40 PM
To: 'donov...@starpower.net' ; 'Elecraft@mailman.qth.net' 

Subject: RE: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

Hi Frank,
I agree with what you said about CW rigs and lightweight rigs for traveling. 
The K3 on SSB sure has its faults. What say you on the top SSB rigs?

Also, since no Dayton and the idea of a contest that weekend is a good idea. 
But maybe we should consider some kind of virtual hospitality suite so we can 
have a beer or two plus chat.
N2TK, Tony


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of donov...@starpower.net
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 12:33 PM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

This is by far not an unbiased survey. Teams that travel on airplanes to get to 
WRTC will be strongly biased toward light weight radios such as the K3. 
Operators who do not travel by a irplane will be biased towards radios with 
much better SSB performance.


73
Frank
W3LPL

- Original Message -

From: "K9FD" 
To: "Paul Gacek" 
Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 4:26:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

I agree Paul, and my comment was to play the stats in jest.

when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides,

I did that to stir the Elecraft kool aide crew.

Having contested many many years in my past life, I dont own
3 - K3 radios because they are losers, and nope I am not in the class of any 
one who qualifies for WRTC. not even close, and at 75 I am not progressing any 
longer, I am on the slipping side of downhill.

73 Merv K9FD

Merv

Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to tell 
you!

In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the top 
15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM et al 
possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus Elecraft 
which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to return to 
Cal for repair. Just a guess 

I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams placing. 
I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage.

I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!!

Stats are fun.

Paul Gacek


On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote:

SO lets see, we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft, and out of
the top 3 no one did, and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
So was it the radio or the operator?
If you look at it from one point of view, loosers used Elecraft..

Merv K9FD, and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.



Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: Elecraft, 
Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.

Wes N7WS


On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.

Mike va3mw



On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes mailto:wes_n...@triconet.org>> wrote:

FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.

You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s. Sixth and 7th
places use one K3 and something else for the second radio.

So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

Wes N7WS



On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018

participant teams used.

Lots of K3.

http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php

Paul
W6PNG/M0SNA
www.nomadic.blog

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Clay Autery]

What is this "better" SSB performance of which you speak.

I am primarily a voice guy  And I am constantly complimented on the 
quality of my transmissions.


How are defining "better" SSB performance?

73,

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(318) 518-1389

On 03/29/20 11:32, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

This is by far not an unbiased survey. Teams that travel on airplanes to
get to WRTC will be strongly biased toward light weight radios such as
the K3. Operators who do not travel by a irplane will be biased towards
radios with much better SSB performance.


73
Frank
W3LPL

- Original Message -

From: "K9FD" 
To: "Paul Gacek" 
Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 4:26:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

I agree Paul, and my comment was to play the stats in jest.

when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides,

I did that to stir the Elecraft kool aide crew.

Having contested many many years in my past life, I dont own
3 - K3 radios because they are losers, and nope I am not in the
class of any one who qualifies for WRTC. not even close,
and at 75 I am not progressing any longer, I am on the slipping
side of downhill.

73 Merv K9FD


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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[donovanf]

Hi Jim, 


You would have to seriously compete in an SSB contest with some of the 
more modern radios in very crowded bands to fully appreciate how much 
better the more modern technologies are for both transmit and receive signal 
quality. The latest Flex radios are almost shockingly good, but all of the 
top-shelf modern radios are significantly better performers than the 
12 year old K3 or even the K3S. 



We're discussing the most demanding situations affecting SSB transceiver 
performance: weak -- often distorted -- SSB signals surrounded by 
much stronger adjacent channel QRM. For much of the time on 
20 and especially 40 meters the adjacent much stronger signals overlap 
well into the receiver bandwidth. Typical spacing between SSB signals 
is only 1.5 kHz, if you're lucky its 2.0 kHz and only rarely 2.5 kHz or more. 
This situation is rather unimportant for the casual contester, but its a 
game changer at the upper levels of serious SSB contest competition. 


I have not made technical measurements of K3 SSB transmitter and 
receiver performance nor do I have the capability to do so. I suspect the 
more modern designs have improved the dynamic response of their entire 
receiver and transmitter chain in ways that can't be captured by simple 
static performance measurements such as frequency response, dynamic range 
and IMD. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 




- Original Message -

From: "Jim Brown"  
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 12:32:52 AM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

Hi Frank, 

SSB is my un-favorite mode, and I don't have exposure to other 
contemporary rigs, so I'd be interested to get your perspective of what 
features/performance of the K3 are weak as opposed to the other radios. 

73, Jim K9YC 

On 3/29/2020 10:09 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: 
> The K3 design is dated, all of the other top manufacturers have introduced 
> much higher performing SSB radios in recent years. 

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Barry]

Something that I think is being missed. Didn't Elecraft address all of 
this in the K3s upgrade and design? I do contest using SSB, and haven't 
seen a problem with my K3s.


73,
Barry
K3NDM


-- Original Message --
From: "Igor Sokolov" 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 3/29/2020 5:41:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...



29.03.2020 23:06, donov...@starpower.net пишет:


It won't be long before we can have some run running the same tests with the K4.


73
Frank
W3LPL


Frank, please keep us posted regarding the outcome of this future testing.

73, Igor UA9CDC

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Jim Brown]

Hi Frank,

SSB is my un-favorite mode, and I don't have exposure to other 
contemporary rigs, so I'd be interested to get your perspective of what 
features/performance of the K3 are weak as opposed to the other radios.


73, Jim K9YC

On 3/29/2020 10:09 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

The K3 design is dated, all of the other top manufacturers have introduced
much higher performing SSB radios in recent years.


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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[donovanf]

Hello Igor, 


I'm sure there will be many, many reports after the K4 starts shipping. 


Its very difficult to remove bias from the test and evaluation process. 
Inevitably the owner of a new radio, antenna or any other new capability 
will be biased toward the new investment. 


Its necessary to introduce blindness into the test procedure to get a valid 
result. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "Igor Sokolov"  
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 9:41:55 PM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 


29.03.2020 23:06, donov...@starpower.net пишет: 
> 
> It won't be long before we can have some run running the same tests with the 
> K4. 
> 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 

Frank, please keep us posted regarding the outcome of this future testing. 

73, Igor UA9CDC 

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Igor Sokolov]

29.03.2020 23:06, donov...@starpower.net пишет:


It won't be long before we can have some run running the same tests with the K4.


73
Frank
W3LPL


Frank, please keep us posted regarding the outcome of this future testing.

73, Igor UA9CDC

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Jack Brindle via Elecraft]

There is a catch in this, of course. Several of the top contesters are 
sponsored by some of the radio companies. The winner in the 2014 WRTC was 
sponsored by Icom as were many others.
The same was true in 2018. Of course, they get the best radios, delivered at 
the competition. Thus the radio choice tends to be biased by the fact that the 
contesters may not be paying for their radios, or having to hand-carry them to 
the competition.

As for the winners, we have seen many times that the contesters who are most 
familiar with propagation in the area where the competition is held will win. 
This was true in Massachusetts, Germany, and will undoubtedly be true in Italy. 
The top guys travel to the areas to get a feel for propagation, but having 
experience there for a long time makes a huge difference. 
In WRTC, it isn’t so much the radio, but rather the experience in the zone that 
matter the most. Radios, logging software, antennas, etc are pretty much even. 
The ops themselves make the big difference.


73!
Jack, W6FB



> On Mar 29, 2020, at 11:06 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:
> 
> Hi Carl, 
> 
> 
> A reminder about this thread, its not about the performance of the K3, 
> its about the preferences of highly competitive contesters who have 
> many excellent choices in the marketplace. Arguably more choices 
> than ever before. 
> 
> 
> Rather than getting into detailed discussions about specific performance 
> parameters, let me just suggest that you do what we do at W3LPL 
> during every SSB contest. Set up a K3 for SSB using the best 
> parameter settings you're aware of. Then set up any other top-of-the-line 
> radio next to it. The comparison in received SSB audio quality is stark. 
> When digging weak -- often distorted -- signals out of noise and extreme 
> adjacent channel interference, overall receiver audio is extremely important. 
> 
> 
> Do the same test with SSB transmitted audio quality by setting up a "blind 
> test." Use the best K3 parameter settings you're aware of. Then set up 
> any other top-of-the-line radio next to it. Ask several very competitive 
> SSB contesters to listen to transmissions from both radios. Don't tell 
> them advance which radio is which, just tell them Radio A and Radio B. 
> I guarantee you that no competitive contester will prefer K3 transmitted 
> SSB audio over any of the other top-of-the-line radios in a blind test. 
> 
> 
> It won't be long before we can have some run running the same tests with the 
> K4. 
> 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 
> - Original Message -
> 
> From: "Carl Yaffey"  
> To: donov...@starpower.net, Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 5:35:15 PM 
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 
> 
> Frank, I’d like to know why a K3 is not great on SSB. Is it the receiver 
> audio? Transmitter EQ? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 29, 2020, at 1:09 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: 
> 
> 
> Charles, 
> 
> 
> 
> The most competitive contesters -- the subject of this thread -- will always 
> gravitate to the highest performing radios, not to their favorite brand. 
> 
> 
> The K3 design is dated, all of the other top manufacturers have introduced 
> much higher performing SSB radios in recent years. The K3 was a 
> revolutionary design when it was introduced many years ago, but no more. 
> 
> 
> Hopefully the new K4 will change the game in Elecraft's favor once again, 
> especially for the most competitive SSB operators. 
> 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carl Yaffey K8NU 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Nr4c]

By any logic there is only one winner in any contest. Except in American events 
where there have to many sub events so Everyone gets a prize. 

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Mar 29, 2020, at 12:03 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX  wrote:
> 
> But...with that logic,.there was ONE winner, the rest were 
> losers.
> 
> 73
> 
> Bob, K4TAX
> 
>> On 3/29/2020 10:47 AM, K9FD wrote:
>> SO lets see,  we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft,  and out of the 
>> top 3 no one did,
>> and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
>> So was it the radio or the operator?
>> If you look at it from one point of view,  loosers used Elecraft..
>> 
>> Merv K9FD,   and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.
>> 
>> 
>>> Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
>>> Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.
>>> 
>>> Wes  N7WS
>>> 
>>> On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
 I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.
 
 Mike va3mw
 
 
 On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes >>> > wrote:
 
 FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.
 
 You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th 
 places use
 one K3 and something else for the second radio.
 
 So four out of 20 radios were K3s.
 
 Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.
 
 Wes  N7WS
 
 
 On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
 > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
 participant teams used.
 >
 > Lots of K3.
 >
 > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
 >
 > Paul
 > W6PNG/M0SNA
 > www.nomadic.blog
 
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... +1

[Bill Steffey NY9H]

Once upon a time there was a radio design that would be the LAST RADIO 
you ever needed... and its receiver design was way far ahead of then 
current "top 3 " designs.  No  old Tenneessee Technical...  it was 
Ten Tec Orion  It was the 'first" to revert back to old "not triple 
conversion"  designs.    Another oldie was Squire Sanders ( check google 
)...lools like similar design


Ten Tec had IT. if ONLY they would have bothered to spend the bucks 
for a programmer to build a decent interface.  I had one on order, and 
drove down & visited the TenTec hamfest /factor tour and Orion Debut  
,,, the set was NOT in the tent as it was inside being checked out, it 
had "checked out" while being demonstrated.


I later cancelled my order , as was the employment of the receiver 
designer   The receiver was GREAT , too bad the rest of the radio 
was not.


another leader that got lost.

bill/3


On 3/29/2020 1:09 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

Charles,



The most competitive contesters -- the subject of this thread -- will always
gravitate to the highest performing radios, not to their favorite brand.


The K3 design is dated, all of the other top manufacturers have introduced
much higher performing SSB radios in recent years. The K3 was a
revolutionary design when it was introduced many years ago, but no more.


Hopefully the new K4 will change the game in Elecraft's favor once again,
especially for the most competitive SSB operators.


73
Frank
W3LPL




- Original Message -

From: "Charles Sells" 
To: "K9FD" 
Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 4:39:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

Merv,

I am curious. If you think K3’s are “losers” then why are you on the Elecraft 
Reflector message board in the first place?

73
Charles
W4PPP


On Mar 29, 2020, at 12:26 PM, K9FD  wrote:

I agree Paul, and my comment was to play the stats in jest.

when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides,

I did that to stir the Elecraft kool aide crew.

Having contested many many years in my past life, I dont own
3 - K3 radios because they are losers, and nope I am not in the
class of any one who qualifies for WRTC. not even close,
and at 75 I am not progressing any longer, I am on the slipping
side of downhill.

73 Merv K9FD

Merv

Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to tell 
you!

In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the top 
15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM et al 
possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus Elecraft 
which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to return to 
Cal for repair. Just a guess 

I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams placing. 
I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage.

I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!!

Stats are fun.

Paul Gacek


On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote:

SO lets see, we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft, and out of the top 3 
no one did,
and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
So was it the radio or the operator?
If you look at it from one point of view, loosers used Elecraft..

Merv K9FD, and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.



Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: Elecraft, 
Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.

Wes N7WS


On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.

Mike va3mw



On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes mailto:wes_n...@triconet.org>> wrote:

FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.

You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s. Sixth and 7th places use
one K3 and something else for the second radio.

So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

Wes N7WS



On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018

participant teams used.

Lots of K3.

http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php

Paul
W6PNG/M0SNA
www.nomadic.blog

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[donovanf]

Hi Carl, 


A reminder about this thread, its not about the performance of the K3, 
its about the preferences of highly competitive contesters who have 
many excellent choices in the marketplace. Arguably more choices 
than ever before. 


Rather than getting into detailed discussions about specific performance 
parameters, let me just suggest that you do what we do at W3LPL 
during every SSB contest. Set up a K3 for SSB using the best 
parameter settings you're aware of. Then set up any other top-of-the-line 
radio next to it. The comparison in received SSB audio quality is stark. 
When digging weak -- often distorted -- signals out of noise and extreme 
adjacent channel interference, overall receiver audio is extremely important. 


Do the same test with SSB transmitted audio quality by setting up a "blind 
test." Use the best K3 parameter settings you're aware of. Then set up 
any other top-of-the-line radio next to it. Ask several very competitive 
SSB contesters to listen to transmissions from both radios. Don't tell 
them advance which radio is which, just tell them Radio A and Radio B. 
I guarantee you that no competitive contester will prefer K3 transmitted 
SSB audio over any of the other top-of-the-line radios in a blind test. 


It won't be long before we can have some run running the same tests with the 
K4. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "Carl Yaffey"  
To: donov...@starpower.net, Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 5:35:15 PM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

Frank, I’d like to know why a K3 is not great on SSB. Is it the receiver audio? 
Transmitter EQ? 







On Mar 29, 2020, at 1:09 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: 


Charles, 



The most competitive contesters -- the subject of this thread -- will always 
gravitate to the highest performing radios, not to their favorite brand. 


The K3 design is dated, all of the other top manufacturers have introduced 
much higher performing SSB radios in recent years. The K3 was a 
revolutionary design when it was introduced many years ago, but no more. 


Hopefully the new K4 will change the game in Elecraft's favor once again, 
especially for the most competitive SSB operators. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 












Carl Yaffey K8NU 

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

There is a difference in the K3 receiver audio quality and the K3S 
receiver audio quality.  Perhaps that is the reason the K3 is not 
preferred for SSB.


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 3/29/2020 12:35 PM, Carl Yaffey wrote:

Frank, I’d like to know why a K3 is not great on SSB. Is it the receiver audio? 
Transmitter EQ?



On Mar 29, 2020, at 1:09 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

Charles,



The most competitive contesters -- the subject of this thread -- will always
gravitate to the highest performing radios, not to their favorite brand.


The K3 design is dated, all of the other top manufacturers have introduced
much higher performing SSB radios in recent years. The K3 was a
revolutionary design when it was introduced many years ago, but no more.


Hopefully the new K4 will change the game in Elecraft's favor once again,
especially for the most competitive SSB operators.


73
Frank
W3LPL


Carl Yaffey  K8NU
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Carl Yaffey]

Frank, I’d like to know why a K3 is not great on SSB. Is it the receiver audio? 
Transmitter EQ? 


> On Mar 29, 2020, at 1:09 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:
> 
> Charles, 
> 
> 
> 
> The most competitive contesters -- the subject of this thread -- will always 
> gravitate to the highest performing radios, not to their favorite brand. 
> 
> 
> The K3 design is dated, all of the other top manufacturers have introduced 
> much higher performing SSB radios in recent years. The K3 was a 
> revolutionary design when it was introduced many years ago, but no more. 
> 
> 
> Hopefully the new K4 will change the game in Elecraft's favor once again, 
> especially for the most competitive SSB operators. 
> 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 

Carl Yaffey  K8NU
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[K9FD]

Damn Charles your reading comprehension needs work

I never said at all anything about Elecraft and even said I own 3 - K3s
in my station

Get a life.

Merv,

I am curious.  If you think K3’s are “losers” then why are you on the Elecraft 
Reflector message board in the first place?

73
Charles
W4PPP


On Mar 29, 2020, at 12:26 PM, K9FD  wrote:

I agree Paul,  and my comment was to play the stats in jest.

when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides,

I did that to stir the  Elecraft kool aide crew.

Having contested many many years in  my past life,  I dont own
3 - K3 radios because they are losers,  and nope I  am not in the
class of any one who qualifies for WRTC.  not even close,
and at 75 I am not progressing any longer,  I am on  the slipping
side of downhill.

73 Merv K9FD

Merv

Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to tell 
you!

In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the top 
15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM et al 
possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus Elecraft 
which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to return to 
Cal for repair. Just a guess 

I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams placing. 
I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage.

I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!!

Stats are fun.

Paul Gacek


On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote:

SO lets see,  we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft,  and out of the top 
3 no one did,
and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
So was it the radio or the operator?
If you look at it from one point of view,  loosers used Elecraft..

Merv K9FD,   and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.



Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: Elecraft, 
Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.

Wes  N7WS


On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.

Mike va3mw



On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes mailto:wes_n...@triconet.org>> wrote:

 FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.

 You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th places 
use
 one K3 and something else for the second radio.

 So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

 Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

 Wes  N7WS



 On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:

 > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
 participant teams used.
 >
 > Lots of K3.
 >
 > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
 >
 > Paul
 > W6PNG/M0SNA
 > www.nomadic.blog

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[donovanf]

Charles, 



The most competitive contesters -- the subject of this thread -- will always 
gravitate to the highest performing radios, not to their favorite brand. 


The K3 design is dated, all of the other top manufacturers have introduced 
much higher performing SSB radios in recent years. The K3 was a 
revolutionary design when it was introduced many years ago, but no more. 


Hopefully the new K4 will change the game in Elecraft's favor once again, 
especially for the most competitive SSB operators. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 




- Original Message -

From: "Charles Sells"  
To: "K9FD"  
Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 4:39:40 PM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

Merv, 

I am curious. If you think K3’s are “losers” then why are you on the Elecraft 
Reflector message board in the first place? 

73 
Charles 
W4PPP 


On Mar 29, 2020, at 12:26 PM, K9FD  wrote: 

I agree Paul, and my comment was to play the stats in jest. 

when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides, 

I did that to stir the Elecraft kool aide crew. 

Having contested many many years in my past life, I dont own 
3 - K3 radios because they are losers, and nope I am not in the 
class of any one who qualifies for WRTC. not even close, 
and at 75 I am not progressing any longer, I am on the slipping 
side of downhill. 

73 Merv K9FD 
> Merv 
> 
> Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to 
> tell you! 
> 
> In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the 
> top 15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM 
> et al possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus 
> Elecraft which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to 
> return to Cal for repair. Just a guess  
> 
> I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams placing. 
> I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage. 
> 
> I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
> awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!! 
> 
> Stats are fun. 
> 
> Paul Gacek 
> 
>> On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote: 
>> 
>> SO lets see, we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft, and out of the top 
>> 3 no one did, 
>> and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom. 
>> So was it the radio or the operator? 
>> If you look at it from one point of view, loosers used Elecraft.. 
>> 
>> Merv K9FD, and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased. 
>> 
>> 
>>> Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
>>> Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu. 
>>> 
>>> Wes N7WS 
>>> 
>>>> On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote: 
>>>> I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4. 
>>>> 
>>>> Mike va3mw 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes >>>> <mailto:wes_n...@triconet.org>> wrote: 
>>>> FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using. 
>>>> 
>>>> You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s. Sixth and 7th places 
>>>> use 
>>>> one K3 and something else for the second radio. 
>>>> 
>>>> So four out of 20 radios were K3s. 
>>>> 
>>>> Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+. 
>>>> 
>>>> Wes N7WS 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote: 
>>>> > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018 
>>>> participant teams used. 
>>>> > 
>>>> > Lots of K3. 
>>>> > 
>>>> > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php 
>>>> > 
>>>> > Paul 
>>>> > W6PNG/M0SNA 
>>>> > www.nomadic.blog 
>>>> 
>>>> __ 
>>>> Elecraft mailing list 
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft 
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm 
>>>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net <mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net> 
>>>> 
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net 
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html 
>>>> Message delivered to va...@portcredit.net <mailto:va...@portcredit.net> 
>>> __ 
>>> Elecraft mailing list 
>>> Home: http://mail

Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[donovanf]

Hi Tony 


Any of the top-of-the-line radios from Flex, Icom, Yaesu and Kenwood 
have significantly better SSB performance than the K3. 


Each of my six stations has two radios, usually a K3 and a "not K3," 
usually a Yaesu FTdx5000. During CW contests our "run" operators 
usually favor the K3, during SSB contests our "run" operators NEVER 
favor the K3. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 



-Original Message- 
From: tony@verizon.net  
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 12:40 PM 
To: 'donov...@starpower.net' ; 
'Elecraft@mailman.qth.net'  
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

Hi Frank, 
I agree with what you said about CW rigs and lightweight rigs for traveling. 
The K3 on SSB sure has its faults. What say you on the top SSB rigs? 

Also, since no Dayton and the idea of a contest that weekend is a good idea. 
But maybe we should consider some kind of virtual hospitality suite so we can 
have a beer or two plus chat. 
N2TK, Tony 


-Original Message- 
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of donov...@starpower.net 
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 12:33 PM 
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

This is by far not an unbiased survey. Teams that travel on airplanes to get to 
WRTC will be strongly biased toward light weight radios such as the K3. 
Operators who do not travel by a irplane will be biased towards radios with 
much better SSB performance. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message - 

From: "K9FD"  
To: "Paul Gacek"  
Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 4:26:55 PM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

I agree Paul, and my comment was to play the stats in jest. 

when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides, 

I did that to stir the Elecraft kool aide crew. 

Having contested many many years in my past life, I dont own 
3 - K3 radios because they are losers, and nope I am not in the class of any 
one who qualifies for WRTC. not even close, and at 75 I am not progressing any 
longer, I am on the slipping side of downhill. 

73 Merv K9FD 
> Merv 
> 
> Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to 
> tell you! 
> 
> In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the 
> top 15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM 
> et al possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus 
> Elecraft which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to 
> return to Cal for repair. Just a guess  
> 
> I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams placing. 
> I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage. 
> 
> I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
> awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!! 
> 
> Stats are fun. 
> 
> Paul Gacek 
> 
>> On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote: 
>> 
>> SO lets see, we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft, and out of 
>> the top 3 no one did, and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom. 
>> So was it the radio or the operator? 
>> If you look at it from one point of view, loosers used Elecraft.. 
>> 
>> Merv K9FD, and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased. 
>> 
>> 
>>> Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
>>> Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu. 
>>> 
>>> Wes N7WS 
>>> 
>>>> On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote: 
>>>> I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4. 
>>>> 
>>>> Mike va3mw 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes >>>> <mailto:wes_n...@triconet.org>> wrote: 
>>>> FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using. 
>>>> 
>>>> You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s. Sixth and 7th 
>>>> places use one K3 and something else for the second radio. 
>>>> 
>>>> So four out of 20 radios were K3s. 
>>>> 
>>>> Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+. 
>>>> 
>>>> Wes N7WS 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote: 
>>>> > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018 
>>>> participant teams used. 
>>>> > 
>>>> > Lots of K3. 
>>>> > 
>>>> > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php 
>>>> > 
>>>> > Paul 
>>>> > W6PNG/M0SNA 
>>>> > www.nomadic.blog 
>>>> 
>>>> ___

Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[K9ZTV]

He is not saying K3s are losers, he is saying statistics can be interpreted to 
indicate the very opposite of what is intended.

73,

Kent  K9ZTV

> On Mar 29, 2020, at 11:39 AM, Charles Sells  wrote:
> 
> Merv,
> 
> I am curious.  If you think K3’s are “losers” then why are you on the 
> Elecraft Reflector message board in the first place?
> 
> 73
> Charles
> W4PPP
> 
> 
> On Mar 29, 2020, at 12:26 PM, K9FD  wrote:
> 
> I agree Paul,  and my comment was to play the stats in jest.
> 
> when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides,
> 
> I did that to stir the  Elecraft kool aide crew.
> 
> Having contested many many years in  my past life,  I dont own
> 3 - K3 radios because they are losers,  and nope I  am not in the
> class of any one who qualifies for WRTC.  not even close,
> and at 75 I am not progressing any longer,  I am on  the slipping
> side of downhill.
> 
> 73 Merv K9FD
>> Merv
>> 
>> Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to 
>> tell you!
>> 
>> In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the 
>> top 15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM 
>> et al possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus 
>> Elecraft which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to 
>> return to Cal for repair. Just a guess 
>> 
>> I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams 
>> placing. I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage.
>> 
>> I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
>> awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!!
>> 
>> Stats are fun.
>> 
>> Paul Gacek
>> 
>>> On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote:
>>> 
>>> SO lets see,  we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft,  and out of the 
>>> top 3 no one did,
>>> and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
>>> So was it the radio or the operator?
>>> If you look at it from one point of view,  loosers used Elecraft..
>>> 
>>> Merv K9FD,   and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.
>>> 
>>> 
 Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
 Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.
 
 Wes  N7WS
 
> On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
> I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.
> 
> Mike va3mw
> 
> 
>> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes > > wrote:

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[N2TK via Elecraft]

Hi Frank,
I agree with what you said about CW rigs and lightweight rigs for traveling. 
The K3 on SSB sure has its faults. What say you on the top SSB rigs?

Also, since no Dayton and the idea of a contest that weekend is a good idea. 
But maybe we should consider some kind of virtual hospitality suite so we can 
have a beer or two plus chat.
N2TK, Tony
 

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of donov...@starpower.net
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 12:33 PM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

This is by far not an unbiased survey. Teams that travel on airplanes to get to 
WRTC will be strongly biased toward light weight radios such as the K3. 
Operators who do not travel by a irplane will be biased towards radios with 
much better SSB performance. 


73
Frank
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "K9FD" 
To: "Paul Gacek" 
Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 4:26:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

I agree Paul, and my comment was to play the stats in jest. 

when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides, 

I did that to stir the Elecraft kool aide crew. 

Having contested many many years in my past life, I dont own
3 - K3 radios because they are losers, and nope I am not in the class of any 
one who qualifies for WRTC. not even close, and at 75 I am not progressing any 
longer, I am on the slipping side of downhill. 

73 Merv K9FD 
> Merv
> 
> Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to 
> tell you! 
> 
> In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the 
> top 15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM 
> et al possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus 
> Elecraft which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to 
> return to Cal for repair. Just a guess  
> 
> I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams placing. 
> I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage. 
> 
> I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
> awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!! 
> 
> Stats are fun. 
> 
> Paul Gacek
> 
>> On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote: 
>> 
>> SO lets see, we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft, and out of 
>> the top 3 no one did, and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
>> So was it the radio or the operator? 
>> If you look at it from one point of view, loosers used Elecraft.. 
>> 
>> Merv K9FD, and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased. 
>> 
>> 
>>> Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
>>> Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu. 
>>> 
>>> Wes N7WS
>>> 
>>>> On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote: 
>>>> I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4. 
>>>> 
>>>> Mike va3mw
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes >>>> <mailto:wes_n...@triconet.org>> wrote: 
>>>> FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using. 
>>>> 
>>>> You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s. Sixth and 7th 
>>>> places use one K3 and something else for the second radio.
>>>> 
>>>> So four out of 20 radios were K3s. 
>>>> 
>>>> Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+. 
>>>> 
>>>> Wes N7WS
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote: 
>>>> > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
>>>> participant teams used. 
>>>> > 
>>>> > Lots of K3. 
>>>> > 
>>>> > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
>>>> > 
>>>> > Paul
>>>> > W6PNG/M0SNA
>>>> > www.nomadic.blog
>>>> 
>>>> __
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
>>>> <mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
>>>> 
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this 
>>>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to 
>>>> va...@portcredit.net <mailto:va...@portcredit.net>
>>> _

Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Charles Sells]

Merv,

I am curious.  If you think K3’s are “losers” then why are you on the Elecraft 
Reflector message board in the first place?

73
Charles
W4PPP


On Mar 29, 2020, at 12:26 PM, K9FD  wrote:

I agree Paul,  and my comment was to play the stats in jest.

when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides,

I did that to stir the  Elecraft kool aide crew.

Having contested many many years in  my past life,  I dont own
3 - K3 radios because they are losers,  and nope I  am not in the
class of any one who qualifies for WRTC.  not even close,
and at 75 I am not progressing any longer,  I am on  the slipping
side of downhill.

73 Merv K9FD
> Merv
> 
> Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to 
> tell you!
> 
> In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the 
> top 15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM 
> et al possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus 
> Elecraft which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to 
> return to Cal for repair. Just a guess 
> 
> I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams placing. 
> I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage.
> 
> I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
> awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!!
> 
> Stats are fun.
> 
> Paul Gacek
> 
>> On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote:
>> 
>> SO lets see,  we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft,  and out of the 
>> top 3 no one did,
>> and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
>> So was it the radio or the operator?
>> If you look at it from one point of view,  loosers used Elecraft..
>> 
>> Merv K9FD,   and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.
>> 
>> 
>>> Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
>>> Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.
>>> 
>>> Wes  N7WS
>>> 
 On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
 I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.
 
 Mike va3mw
 
 
> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes  > wrote:
 FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.
 
 You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th 
 places use
 one K3 and something else for the second radio.
 
 So four out of 20 radios were K3s.
 
 Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.
 
 Wes  N7WS
 
 
> On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
 > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
 participant teams used.
 >
 > Lots of K3.
 >
 > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
 >
 > Paul
 > W6PNG/M0SNA
 > www.nomadic.blog
 
 __
 Elecraft mailing list
 Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
 Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
 Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
 
 This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
 Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
 Message delivered to va...@portcredit.net 
>>> __
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>>> 
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to merv.k...@gmail.com
>> __
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[donovanf]

This is by far not an unbiased survey. Teams that travel on airplanes to 
get to WRTC will be strongly biased toward light weight radios such as 
the K3. Operators who do not travel by a irplane will be biased towards 
radios with much better SSB performance. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "K9FD"  
To: "Paul Gacek"  
Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 4:26:55 PM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

I agree Paul, and my comment was to play the stats in jest. 

when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides, 

I did that to stir the Elecraft kool aide crew. 

Having contested many many years in my past life, I dont own 
3 - K3 radios because they are losers, and nope I am not in the 
class of any one who qualifies for WRTC. not even close, 
and at 75 I am not progressing any longer, I am on the slipping 
side of downhill. 

73 Merv K9FD 
> Merv 
> 
> Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to 
> tell you! 
> 
> In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the 
> top 15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM 
> et al possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus 
> Elecraft which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to 
> return to Cal for repair. Just a guess  
> 
> I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams placing. 
> I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage. 
> 
> I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
> awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!! 
> 
> Stats are fun. 
> 
> Paul Gacek 
> 
>> On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote: 
>> 
>> SO lets see, we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft, and out of the top 
>> 3 no one did, 
>> and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom. 
>> So was it the radio or the operator? 
>> If you look at it from one point of view, loosers used Elecraft.. 
>> 
>> Merv K9FD, and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased. 
>> 
>> 
>>> Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
>>> Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu. 
>>> 
>>> Wes N7WS 
>>> 
>>>> On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote: 
>>>> I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4. 
>>>> 
>>>> Mike va3mw 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes >>>> <mailto:wes_n...@triconet.org>> wrote: 
>>>> FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using. 
>>>> 
>>>> You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s. Sixth and 7th places 
>>>> use 
>>>> one K3 and something else for the second radio. 
>>>> 
>>>> So four out of 20 radios were K3s. 
>>>> 
>>>> Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+. 
>>>> 
>>>> Wes N7WS 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote: 
>>>> > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018 
>>>> participant teams used. 
>>>> > 
>>>> > Lots of K3. 
>>>> > 
>>>> > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php 
>>>> > 
>>>> > Paul 
>>>> > W6PNG/M0SNA 
>>>> > www.nomadic.blog 
>>>> 
>>>> __ 
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>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft 
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>>> __ 
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>> __ 
>> Elecraft mai

Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[K9FD]

I agree Paul,  and my comment was to play the stats in jest.

when the glass is half full you can see it from both sides,

I did that to stir the  Elecraft kool aide crew.

Having contested many many years in  my past life,  I dont own
3 - K3 radios because they are losers,  and nope I  am not in the
class of any one who qualifies for WRTC.  not even close,
and at 75 I am not progressing any longer,  I am on  the slipping
side of downhill.

73 Merv K9FD

Merv

Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to tell 
you!

In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the top 
15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM et al 
possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus Elecraft 
which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to return to 
Cal for repair. Just a guess 

I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams placing. 
I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage.

I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!!

Stats are fun.

Paul Gacek


On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote:

SO lets see,  we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft,  and out of the top 
3 no one did,
and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
So was it the radio or the operator?
If you look at it from one point of view,  loosers used Elecraft..

Merv K9FD,   and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.



Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: Elecraft, 
Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.

Wes  N7WS


On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.

Mike va3mw



On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes mailto:wes_n...@triconet.org>> wrote:

 FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.

 You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th places 
use
 one K3 and something else for the second radio.

 So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

 Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

 Wes  N7WS



 On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:

 > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
 participant teams used.
 >
 > Lots of K3.
 >
 > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
 >
 > Paul
 > W6PNG/M0SNA
 > www.nomadic.blog

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[donovanf]

WRTC competitors must be highly competitive on both CW and SSB. 


If you survey the most competitive contesters about their favorite 
(i.e., most effective) SSB radio you probably won't find a single 
contester that favors the K3. In fact, they would favor any of other 
manufacturer over Elecraft. 


CW is a different story where the K3 really shines as the favorite 
radio among the most competitive contesters. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "Wes"  
To: "Michael Walker"  
Cc: "Elecraft@mailman.qth.net"  
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 3:05:58 PM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three... 

Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: Elecraft, 
Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu. 

Wes N7WS 

On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote: 
> I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4. 
> 
> Mike va3mw 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes  <mailto:wes_n...@triconet.org>> wrote: 
> 
> FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using. 
> 
> You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s. Sixth and 7th places use 
> one K3 and something else for the second radio. 
> 
> So four out of 20 radios were K3s. 
> 
> Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+. 
> 
> Wes N7WS 
> 
> 
> On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote: 
> > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018 
> participant teams used. 
> > 
> > Lots of K3. 
> > 
> > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php 
> > 
> > Paul 
> > W6PNG/M0SNA 
> > www.nomadic.blog 
> 
> __ 
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[K9FD]

Right on Bill,  the radio has only a small part to play in these contests,
if it provides the basic operation thats all thats needed,  the operator
is the key.   They all are as equal as possible with the same antennas
same locations etc.
Contests for a number of years at K4VX multi-multi and I observed and
learned the operator was the winning key.
Have seen good operators sit down with a "poor" radio and make double
the contacts another op with the best radio available made.

I was addressing the use of Elecraft being with mostly "losers" in jest,
seems many are out of work and nothing to do but think seriously,
many have lost all sense of humor and reading comprehension as well,


This is a senseless comparison. In a NASCAR race, it’s driver/car against 
driver/car. But with radio contests it’s only operator against operator. 
There’s no easy way to play radio against radio. Nowhere in the log for radio 
mfg to be logged.

Maybe a new contest.  Exchange might be RS(T), first letter of mfg name, and 
model number; like “59 E K3S”. I feel sorry for guys using some Yeasu rigs!

QWH?

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill



On Mar 29, 2020, at 11:08 AM, Wes  wrote:

Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: Elecraft, 
Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.

Wes  N7WS


On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.

Mike va3mw


On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes mailto:wes_n...@triconet.org>> wrote:

FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.

You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th places 
use
one K3 and something else for the second radio.

So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

Wes  N7WS


On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
> If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
participant teams used.
>
> Lots of K3.
>
> http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
>
> Paul
> W6PNG/M0SNA
> www.nomadic.blog

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Don Wilhelm]

Since WRTC operators are already considered top-notch, I would interpret 
that data as indicating almost half of the rigs used by top operators 
are the Elecraft K3/K3S.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/29/2020 10:32 AM, John K9UWA wrote:


I get 66  Elecraft K3 radios out of a possible 126. That leaves 60 radios total 
split
between the Other Companies Radios.
John k9uwa



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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[K9FD]

Yes, and isnt that radical,  what a thought,  a pair of guys were better 
than

everyone else.
Its called exceptionalism.   It actually works.

But...with that logic,.there was ONE winner, the rest were 
losers.


73

Bob, K4TAX

On 3/29/2020 10:47 AM, K9FD wrote:
SO lets see,  we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft,  and out 
of the top 3 no one did,

and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
So was it the radio or the operator?
If you look at it from one point of view,  loosers used Elecraft..

Merv K9FD,   and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.


Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.


Wes  N7WS

On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:

I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.

Mike va3mw


On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes > wrote:


    FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were 
using.


    You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s. Sixth and 
7th places use

    one K3 and something else for the second radio.

    So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

    Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

    Wes  N7WS


    On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
    > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
    participant teams used.
    >
    > Lots of K3.
    >
    > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
    >
    > Paul
    > W6PNG/M0SNA
    > www.nomadic.blog

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Nr4c]

This is a senseless comparison. In a NASCAR race, it’s driver/car against 
driver/car. But with radio contests it’s only operator against operator. 
There’s no easy way to play radio against radio. Nowhere in the log for radio 
mfg to be logged. 

Maybe a new contest.  Exchange might be RS(T), first letter of mfg name, and 
model number; like “59 E K3S”. I feel sorry for guys using some Yeasu rigs! 

QWH?

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Mar 29, 2020, at 11:08 AM, Wes  wrote:
> 
> Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
> Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.
> 
> Wes  N7WS
> 
>> On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
>> I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.
>> 
>> Mike va3mw
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes > > wrote:
>> 
>>FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.
>> 
>>You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th places 
>> use
>>one K3 and something else for the second radio.
>> 
>>So four out of 20 radios were K3s.
>> 
>>Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.
>> 
>>Wes  N7WS
>> 
>> 
>>On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
>>> If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
>>participant teams used.
>>>
>>> Lots of K3.
>>>
>>> http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
>>>
>>> Paul
>>> W6PNG/M0SNA
>>> www.nomadic.blog
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Paul Gacek via Elecraft]

Merv

Now we entering the arena of stats can tell you whatever you want them to tell 
you!

In fairness only one of the top teams was a US team (I think) and 3 of the top 
15 were US. Maybe radio choice for the Europeans is more to do with ICOM et al 
possibly having a more direct sales and support presence in EU versus Elecraft 
which is via local distributors and possibly requiring the gear to return to 
Cal for repair. Just a guess 

I think the WRTC leader role for the Boston/NE one had more US teams placing. 
I’m sure a story exists around home team advantage.

I can only reiterate that anyone who participates in WRTC has to be pretty 
awesome and I wish I had 1% of their skills!!

Stats are fun.

Paul Gacek

> On Mar 29, 2020, at 8:50 AM, K9FD  wrote:
> 
> SO lets see,  we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft,  and out of the 
> top 3 no one did,
> and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
> So was it the radio or the operator?
> If you look at it from one point of view,  loosers used Elecraft..
> 
> Merv K9FD,   and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.
> 
> 
>> Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
>> Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.
>> 
>> Wes  N7WS
>> 
>>> On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
>>> I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.
>>> 
>>> Mike va3mw
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes >>> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.
>>> 
>>> You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th 
>>> places use
>>> one K3 and something else for the second radio.
>>> 
>>> So four out of 20 radios were K3s.
>>> 
>>> Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.
>>> 
>>> Wes  N7WS
>>> 
>>> 
 On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
>>> > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
>>> participant teams used.
>>> >
>>> > Lots of K3.
>>> >
>>> > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
>>> >
>>> > Paul
>>> > W6PNG/M0SNA
>>> > www.nomadic.blog
>>> 
>>> __
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>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

But...with that logic,.there was ONE winner, the rest were 
losers.


73

Bob, K4TAX

On 3/29/2020 10:47 AM, K9FD wrote:
SO lets see,  we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft,  and out of 
the top 3 no one did,

and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
So was it the radio or the operator?
If you look at it from one point of view,  loosers used Elecraft..

Merv K9FD,   and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.


Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.


Wes  N7WS

On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:

I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.

Mike va3mw


On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes > wrote:


    FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were 
using.


    You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 
7th places use

    one K3 and something else for the second radio.

    So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

    Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

    Wes  N7WS


    On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
    > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
    participant teams used.
    >
    > Lots of K3.
    >
    > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
    >
    > Paul
    > W6PNG/M0SNA
    > www.nomadic.blog

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Dave Sublette]

Put all the stations in the same tent and then see who wins  :-)

73,

Dave, K4TO

On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 11:47 AM K9FD  wrote:

> SO lets see,  we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft,  and out of
> the top 3 no one did,
> and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
> So was it the radio or the operator?
> If you look at it from one point of view,  loosers used Elecraft..
>
> Merv K9FD,   and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.
>
>
> > Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five:
> > Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.
> >
> > Wes  N7WS
> >
> > On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:
> >> I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.
> >>
> >> Mike va3mw
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes  >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were
> >> using.
> >>
> >> You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and
> >> 7th places use
> >> one K3 and something else for the second radio.
> >>
> >> So four out of 20 radios were K3s.
> >>
> >> Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.
> >>
> >> Wes  N7WS
> >>
> >>
> >> On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
> >> > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
> >> participant teams used.
> >> >
> >> > Lots of K3.
> >> >
> >> > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
> >> >
> >> > Paul
> >> > W6PNG/M0SNA
> >> > www.nomadic.blog
> >>
> >> __
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> >
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[K9FD]

SO lets see,  we are saying that 50 percent used Elecraft,  and out of 
the top 3 no one did,

and most who used Elecraft were in the bottom.
So was it the radio or the operator?
If you look at it from one point of view,  loosers used Elecraft..

Merv K9FD,   and I own 3 - k3 radios so not biased.


Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: 
Elecraft, Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.


Wes  N7WS

On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:

I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.

Mike va3mw


On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes > wrote:


    FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were 
using.


    You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 
7th places use

    one K3 and something else for the second radio.

    So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

    Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

    Wes  N7WS


    On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
    > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
    participant teams used.
    >
    > Lots of K3.
    >
    > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
    >
    > Paul
    > W6PNG/M0SNA
    > www.nomadic.blog

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Wes]

Wasn't my subject line. But I'll see your four and raise it to five: Elecraft, 
Flex, Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu.


Wes  N7WS

On 3/29/2020 6:55 AM, Michael Walker wrote:

I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.

Mike va3mw


On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes > wrote:


FWIW. I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.

You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th places 
use
one K3 and something else for the second radio.

So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

Wes  N7WS


On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
> If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
participant teams used.
>
> Lots of K3.
>
> http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
>
> Paul
> W6PNG/M0SNA
> www.nomadic.blog

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Wes]

I suppose that as a sometimes NASCAR fan, I gravitate to the top ten :-)

Wes  N7WS

On 3/29/2020 6:52 AM, Paul Gacek wrote:

Wes

I think virtually all of the ~134 participants are by definition are top 
contesters and not just the top 10 of the 67 teams but you are correct that the 
top 10 aren’t dyed in the wool Elecrafters.

I did a quick mental tally and think 50% of the rigs are K3 (~67 out of 134). 
The next largest group are IC7xxx for about 17.

Paul Gacek
W6PNG/M0SNA
www.nomadic.blog


On Mar 29, 2020, at 6:32 AM, Wes  wrote:

FWIW.  I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.

You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th places use 
one K3 and something else for the second radio.

So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

Wes  N7WS



On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018 participant 
teams used.

Lots of K3.

http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php

Paul
W6PNG/M0SNA
www.nomadic.blog

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[John K9UWA]

I get 66  Elecraft K3 radios out of a possible 126. That leaves 60 radios total 
split 
between the Other Companies Radios.
John k9uwa


On 29 Mar 2020 at 9:55, Michael Walker wrote:

> I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.
> 
> Mike va3mw
> 
> 
> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes  wrote:
> 
> > FWIW.  I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.
> >
> > You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th places 
> > use
> > one K3 and something else for the second radio.
> >
> > So four out of 20 radios were K3s.
> >
> > Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.
> >
> > Wes  N7WS

John Goller, K9UWA & Jean Goller, N9PXF 
Antique Radio Restorations
k9...@arrl.net
Visit our Web Site at:
http://www.JohnJeanAntiqueRadio.com
4836 Ranch Road
Leo, IN 46765
USA
1-260-637-6426

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Michael Walker]

I find you mention the big 3, but it is really the big 4.

Mike va3mw


On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:28 AM Wes  wrote:

> FWIW.  I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.
>
> You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th places
> use
> one K3 and something else for the second radio.
>
> So four out of 20 radios were K3s.
>
> Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.
>
> Wes  N7WS
>
>
> On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
> > If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018
> participant teams used.
> >
> > Lots of K3.
> >
> > http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
> >
> > Paul
> > W6PNG/M0SNA
> > www.nomadic.blog
>
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Paul Gacek via Elecraft]

Wes

I think virtually all of the ~134 participants are by definition are top 
contesters and not just the top 10 of the 67 teams but you are correct that the 
top 10 aren’t dyed in the wool Elecrafters.

I did a quick mental tally and think 50% of the rigs are K3 (~67 out of 134). 
The next largest group are IC7xxx for about 17.

Paul Gacek
W6PNG/M0SNA
www.nomadic.blog

> On Mar 29, 2020, at 6:32 AM, Wes  wrote:
> 
> FWIW.  I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.
> 
> You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th places use 
> one K3 and something else for the second radio.
> 
> So four out of 20 radios were K3s.
> 
> Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.
> 
> Wes  N7WS
> 
> 
>> On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:
>> If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018 participant 
>> teams used.
>> 
>> Lots of K3.
>> 
>> http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
>> 
>> Paul
>> W6PNG/M0SNA
>> www.nomadic.blog
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Wes]

FWIW.  I took a cursory look at the top 10 to see what they were using.

You have to get to 5th place to find a pair of K3s.  Sixth and 7th places use 
one K3 and something else for the second radio.


So four out of 20 radios were K3s.

Also of interest 6 out of 10 used WinTest with 4 using N1MM+.

Wes  N7WS


On 3/29/2020 2:50 AM, Paul Gacek via Elecraft wrote:

If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018 participant 
teams used.

Lots of K3.

http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php

Paul
W6PNG/M0SNA
www.nomadic.blog


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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Bob Gibson via Elecraft]

This doesn't happen anymore..Not in the last ten years..Turn your K3 on and 
call CQ!!  This helps with being bored.. 

   73s Bob W5RG
 

On Sunday, March 29, 2020, 7:48:13 AM CDT, Christian Friess 
 wrote:  
 
 "The Big Three Automobile manufacturers often looked towards peaks in Monday
auto sales after their models performed well in NASCAR races over the
weekend"

That must have been long before the internet

73 Chris, DL2MDU

Am 29.03.2020 um 11:50 schrieb Paul Gacek via Elecraft:
> If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018 participant 
> teams used.
>
> Lots of K3.
>
> http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php
>
> Paul
> W6PNG/M0SNA
> www.nomadic.blog
>
>> On Mar 28, 2020, at 8:22 PM, Barry Baines via Elecraft 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> Dick:
>>
>>> On Mar 28, 2020, at 9:17 PM, Dick Dickinson  wrote:
>>>
>>> The Big Three Automobile manufacturers often looked towards peaks in Monday
>>> auto sales after their models performed well in NASCAR races over the
>>> weekend.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I wonder if amateur radio manufacturers look for similar peaks following
>>> contest events.
>> Interesting question, but there are huge differences in events:
>>
>> 1.  The NASCAR race itself is very public and the results are known at the 
>> end of the race (contest).  Such races are publicized through news media so 
>> that even those that don’t watch the race live can easily find out the 
>> results after the race. As part of the publicity, each team is described as 
>> a ‘Ford”, “GM”, “Honda”, team etc. even though the cars themselves are 
>> indistinguishable except for the label that is slapped on them.  NASCAR fans 
>> indeed have ‘brand loyalty’ and may well be influenced by racing results.
>>
>> 2  An amateur contest is conducted in closed hamshacks running for 
>> significant periods of time (over a weekend) and no one necessarily knows 
>> who is competing until logs are submitted.  Generally, no one knows 
>> (including the contestants) the results for a month or more after the event. 
>>  And when the results are announced, the contestants are described by their 
>> name/call, location and perhaps club affiliation.  No one is highlighting 
>> their equipment unless a photo is included in the article providing the 
>> contest results that provides a glimpse of their shack.
>>
>> Consequently, I seriously doubt that there are peaks in sales due to the 
>> results of specific contest events themselves.
>>
>> That said, we are seeing some equipment touted based upon advertising 
>> conducted by the manufacturers themselves:
>>
>> 1.  Flex Radio touts their “SO2R” solution for contesters and others 
>> highlighting the ease of Flex products being able to operate SO2R with 
>> relatively minimal wiring/cabling.  This includes having contesters 
>> explaining how they're benefiting competitively from Flex product offerings.
>>
>> 2.  Manufacturers are supporting DXpeditions where the manufacturers 
>> themselves publicize their support for a particular operating group from 
>> some rare location.  Both Elecraft and Flex have done this.  In addition, 
>> the DX Team publicly highlights the financial support provided by major 
>> donors, including equipping their team with the equipment that is utilized.
>>
>>
>> I can’t say that there is a direct correlation between specific contesting 
>> and DX events as having a correlation with amateur radio equipment sales.  
>> However, it is probably fair to say that manufacturers are now paying 
>> attention to contesters in helping to determine the features/bells & 
>> whistles being put into their products.  Flex in particular has been doing 
>> that with their SmartSDR development.  Their transceivers and PGXL amplifier 
>> are based in part of meeting contester preferences.  Their strategy is 
>> presumably based in part of two factors:
>>
>> 1.  Contesters are spending real $$$ on their stations to develop a 
>> competitive edge.  When your focus is on the contest and not the wallet, 
>> they’re more likely to spend money on technology that will enhance their 
>> capabilities or provide ease of finding and making QSOs.
>>
>> 2  There is indeed a ’trickle down’ impact where the capabilities introduced 
>> to support contesters becomes available to other amateur operators.  Again, 
>> Flex touts their focus on contesters because the contesters are in a sense 
>> underwriting the development effort by being ‘early adopters.’  However, 
>> once developed, features/capabilities become available to a wider audience 
>> who may be interested in taking advantage of particular new features that 
>> appeal to them.
>>
>>
>> BTW, this isn’t necessarily a new phenomena.  There has been plenty of 
>> technology developed for other markets over the past 10 years or so that 
>> have been introduced into amateur radio products (e.g. DOD/NSA-> amateur 
>> radio).    Software Defined Radio has grown tremendously because 
>> organizations with ‘real money’ 

Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Christian Friess]

"The Big Three Automobile manufacturers often looked towards peaks in Monday
auto sales after their models performed well in NASCAR races over the
weekend"

That must have been long before the internet

73 Chris, DL2MDU

Am 29.03.2020 um 11:50 schrieb Paul Gacek via Elecraft:

If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018 participant 
teams used.

Lots of K3.

http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php

Paul
W6PNG/M0SNA
www.nomadic.blog


On Mar 28, 2020, at 8:22 PM, Barry Baines via Elecraft 
 wrote:

Dick:


On Mar 28, 2020, at 9:17 PM, Dick Dickinson  wrote:

The Big Three Automobile manufacturers often looked towards peaks in Monday
auto sales after their models performed well in NASCAR races over the
weekend.



I wonder if amateur radio manufacturers look for similar peaks following
contest events.

Interesting question, but there are huge differences in events:

1.  The NASCAR race itself is very public and the results are known at the end 
of the race (contest).  Such races are publicized through news media so that 
even those that don’t watch the race live can easily find out the results after 
the race. As part of the publicity, each team is described as a ‘Ford”, “GM”, 
“Honda”, team etc. even though the cars themselves are indistinguishable except 
for the label that is slapped on them.  NASCAR fans indeed have ‘brand loyalty’ 
and may well be influenced by racing results.

2  An amateur contest is conducted in closed hamshacks running for significant 
periods of time (over a weekend) and no one necessarily knows who is competing 
until logs are submitted.  Generally, no one knows (including the contestants) 
the results for a month or more after the event.  And when the results are 
announced, the contestants are described by their name/call, location and 
perhaps club affiliation.  No one is highlighting their equipment unless a 
photo is included in the article providing the contest results that provides a 
glimpse of their shack.

Consequently, I seriously doubt that there are peaks in sales due to the 
results of specific contest events themselves.

That said, we are seeing some equipment touted based upon advertising conducted 
by the manufacturers themselves:

1.  Flex Radio touts their “SO2R” solution for contesters and others 
highlighting the ease of Flex products being able to operate SO2R with 
relatively minimal wiring/cabling.  This includes having contesters explaining 
how they're benefiting competitively from Flex product offerings.

2.  Manufacturers are supporting DXpeditions where the manufacturers themselves 
publicize their support for a particular operating group from some rare 
location.  Both Elecraft and Flex have done this.  In addition, the DX Team 
publicly highlights the financial support provided by major donors, including 
equipping their team with the equipment that is utilized.


I can’t say that there is a direct correlation between specific contesting and DX 
events as having a correlation with amateur radio equipment sales.  However, it is 
probably fair to say that manufacturers are now paying attention to contesters in 
helping to determine the features/bells & whistles being put into their 
products.  Flex in particular has been doing that with their SmartSDR development.  
Their transceivers and PGXL amplifier are based in part of meeting contester 
preferences.  Their strategy is presumably based in part of two factors:

1.  Contesters are spending real $$$ on their stations to develop a competitive 
edge.  When your focus is on the contest and not the wallet, they’re more 
likely to spend money on technology that will enhance their capabilities or 
provide ease of finding and making QSOs.

2  There is indeed a ’trickle down’ impact where the capabilities introduced to 
support contesters becomes available to other amateur operators.  Again, Flex 
touts their focus on contesters because the contesters are in a sense 
underwriting the development effort by being ‘early adopters.’  However, once 
developed, features/capabilities become available to a wider audience who may 
be interested in taking advantage of particular new features that appeal to 
them.


BTW, this isn’t necessarily a new phenomena.  There has been plenty of technology 
developed for other markets over the past 10 years or so that have been introduced 
into amateur radio products (e.g. DOD/NSA-> amateur radio).Software Defined 
Radio has grown tremendously because organizations with ‘real money’ underwrite 
technology and product development that later gets introduced into the amateur 
radio market.


FWIW,

Barry Baines, WD4ASW
Keller, TX






As ever,

Dick - KA5KKT



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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Paul Gacek via Elecraft]

If you follow the link you can see what radios the 50+ WRTC 2018 participant 
teams used.

Lots of K3.

http://wrtc2018.de/competition/finalscores.php

Paul
W6PNG/M0SNA 
www.nomadic.blog

> On Mar 28, 2020, at 8:22 PM, Barry Baines via Elecraft 
>  wrote:
> 
> Dick:
> 
>> On Mar 28, 2020, at 9:17 PM, Dick Dickinson  wrote:
>> 
>> The Big Three Automobile manufacturers often looked towards peaks in Monday
>> auto sales after their models performed well in NASCAR races over the
>> weekend.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I wonder if amateur radio manufacturers look for similar peaks following
>> contest events.
> 
> Interesting question, but there are huge differences in events:
> 
> 1.  The NASCAR race itself is very public and the results are known at the 
> end of the race (contest).  Such races are publicized through news media so 
> that even those that don’t watch the race live can easily find out the 
> results after the race. As part of the publicity, each team is described as a 
> ‘Ford”, “GM”, “Honda”, team etc. even though the cars themselves are 
> indistinguishable except for the label that is slapped on them.  NASCAR fans 
> indeed have ‘brand loyalty’ and may well be influenced by racing results.  
> 
> 2  An amateur contest is conducted in closed hamshacks running for 
> significant periods of time (over a weekend) and no one necessarily knows who 
> is competing until logs are submitted.  Generally, no one knows (including 
> the contestants) the results for a month or more after the event.  And when 
> the results are announced, the contestants are described by their name/call, 
> location and perhaps club affiliation.  No one is highlighting their 
> equipment unless a photo is included in the article providing the contest 
> results that provides a glimpse of their shack.
> 
> Consequently, I seriously doubt that there are peaks in sales due to the 
> results of specific contest events themselves.
> 
> That said, we are seeing some equipment touted based upon advertising 
> conducted by the manufacturers themselves:
> 
> 1.  Flex Radio touts their “SO2R” solution for contesters and others 
> highlighting the ease of Flex products being able to operate SO2R with 
> relatively minimal wiring/cabling.  This includes having contesters 
> explaining how they're benefiting competitively from Flex product offerings. 
> 
> 2.  Manufacturers are supporting DXpeditions where the manufacturers 
> themselves publicize their support for a particular operating group from some 
> rare location.  Both Elecraft and Flex have done this.  In addition, the DX 
> Team publicly highlights the financial support provided by major donors, 
> including equipping their team with the equipment that is utilized.  
> 
> 
> I can’t say that there is a direct correlation between specific contesting 
> and DX events as having a correlation with amateur radio equipment sales.  
> However, it is probably fair to say that manufacturers are now paying 
> attention to contesters in helping to determine the features/bells & whistles 
> being put into their products.  Flex in particular has been doing that with 
> their SmartSDR development.  Their transceivers and PGXL amplifier are based 
> in part of meeting contester preferences.  Their strategy is presumably based 
> in part of two factors:
> 
> 1.  Contesters are spending real $$$ on their stations to develop a 
> competitive edge.  When your focus is on the contest and not the wallet, 
> they’re more likely to spend money on technology that will enhance their 
> capabilities or provide ease of finding and making QSOs.
> 
> 2  There is indeed a ’trickle down’ impact where the capabilities introduced 
> to support contesters becomes available to other amateur operators.  Again, 
> Flex touts their focus on contesters because the contesters are in a sense 
> underwriting the development effort by being ‘early adopters.’  However, once 
> developed, features/capabilities become available to a wider audience who may 
> be interested in taking advantage of particular new features that appeal to 
> them.
> 
> 
> BTW, this isn’t necessarily a new phenomena.  There has been plenty of 
> technology developed for other markets over the past 10 years or so that have 
> been introduced into amateur radio products (e.g. DOD/NSA-> amateur radio).   
>  Software Defined Radio has grown tremendously because organizations with 
> ‘real money’ underwrite technology and product development that later gets 
> introduced into the amateur radio market.
> 
> 
> FWIW,
> 
> Barry Baines, WD4ASW
> Keller, TX
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> As ever,
>> 
>> Dick - KA5KKT
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> __
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>> 
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: 

Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Barry Baines via Elecraft]

Dick:

> On Mar 28, 2020, at 9:17 PM, Dick Dickinson  wrote:
> 
> The Big Three Automobile manufacturers often looked towards peaks in Monday
> auto sales after their models performed well in NASCAR races over the
> weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if amateur radio manufacturers look for similar peaks following
> contest events.

Interesting question, but there are huge differences in events:

1.  The NASCAR race itself is very public and the results are known at the end 
of the race (contest).  Such races are publicized through news media so that 
even those that don’t watch the race live can easily find out the results after 
the race. As part of the publicity, each team is described as a ‘Ford”, “GM”, 
“Honda”, team etc. even though the cars themselves are indistinguishable except 
for the label that is slapped on them.  NASCAR fans indeed have ‘brand loyalty’ 
and may well be influenced by racing results.  

2  An amateur contest is conducted in closed hamshacks running for significant 
periods of time (over a weekend) and no one necessarily knows who is competing 
until logs are submitted.  Generally, no one knows (including the contestants) 
the results for a month or more after the event.  And when the results are 
announced, the contestants are described by their name/call, location and 
perhaps club affiliation.  No one is highlighting their equipment unless a 
photo is included in the article providing the contest results that provides a 
glimpse of their shack.

Consequently, I seriously doubt that there are peaks in sales due to the 
results of specific contest events themselves.

That said, we are seeing some equipment touted based upon advertising conducted 
by the manufacturers themselves:

1.  Flex Radio touts their “SO2R” solution for contesters and others 
highlighting the ease of Flex products being able to operate SO2R with 
relatively minimal wiring/cabling.  This includes having contesters explaining 
how they're benefiting competitively from Flex product offerings. 

2.  Manufacturers are supporting DXpeditions where the manufacturers themselves 
publicize their support for a particular operating group from some rare 
location.  Both Elecraft and Flex have done this.  In addition, the DX Team 
publicly highlights the financial support provided by major donors, including 
equipping their team with the equipment that is utilized.  


I can’t say that there is a direct correlation between specific contesting and 
DX events as having a correlation with amateur radio equipment sales.  However, 
it is probably fair to say that manufacturers are now paying attention to 
contesters in helping to determine the features/bells & whistles being put into 
their products.  Flex in particular has been doing that with their SmartSDR 
development.  Their transceivers and PGXL amplifier are based in part of 
meeting contester preferences.  Their strategy is presumably based in part of 
two factors:

1.  Contesters are spending real $$$ on their stations to develop a competitive 
edge.  When your focus is on the contest and not the wallet, they’re more 
likely to spend money on technology that will enhance their capabilities or 
provide ease of finding and making QSOs.

2  There is indeed a ’trickle down’ impact where the capabilities introduced to 
support contesters becomes available to other amateur operators.  Again, Flex 
touts their focus on contesters because the contesters are in a sense 
underwriting the development effort by being ‘early adopters.’  However, once 
developed, features/capabilities become available to a wider audience who may 
be interested in taking advantage of particular new features that appeal to 
them.


BTW, this isn’t necessarily a new phenomena.  There has been plenty of 
technology developed for other markets over the past 10 years or so that have 
been introduced into amateur radio products (e.g. DOD/NSA-> amateur radio).
Software Defined Radio has grown tremendously because organizations with ‘real 
money’ underwrite technology and product development that later gets introduced 
into the amateur radio market.


FWIW,

Barry Baines, WD4ASW
Keller, TX

> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As ever,
> 
> Dick - KA5KKT
> 
> 
> 
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Message delivered to bbai...@mac.com 

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Re: [Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Scott Manthe]

Not unless they start televising contests... :-) Of course, during this 
sportsless pandemic, this possibility becomes a little more plausible. 
Radiosports, live on ESPN!


73,
Scott N9AA


On 3/28/20 10:17 PM, Dick Dickinson wrote:

The Big Three Automobile manufacturers often looked towards peaks in Monday
auto sales after their models performed well in NASCAR races over the
weekend.

  


I wonder if amateur radio manufacturers look for similar peaks following
contest events.

  

  


As ever,

Dick - KA5KKT

  





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[Elecraft] The Big Three...

[Dick Dickinson]

The Big Three Automobile manufacturers often looked towards peaks in Monday
auto sales after their models performed well in NASCAR races over the
weekend.

 

I wonder if amateur radio manufacturers look for similar peaks following
contest events.

 

 

As ever,

Dick - KA5KKT

 

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