Re: [Elecraft] Windows 10 Bug
On 2015-07-30 5:11 AM, Andy McMullin wrote: I respectfully suggest that you watch his video and listen to the explanation before making comments. I did watch his video. He does not ask you to set the microphone level to 100% — he says to adjust the erroneous interface control to the 100% position. He says that any setting of the mic slider other than 100% is attenuation. That is completely incorrect as can be demonstrated simply by setting the legend to decibels instead of percent. The only valid bug in his report is that Windows 7 and prior resets the endpoint gain to maximum when the endpoint is opened. Even that bug has been fixed in the Windows 8 driver. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 2015-07-30 5:11 AM, Andy McMullin wrote: I respectfully suggest that you watch his video and listen to the explanation before making comments. In particular, when software is not executing correctly you should remember that it is not doing what it is supposed to do. He does not ask you to set the microphone level to 100% — he says to adjust the erroneous interface control to the 100% position. Not the same thing. Watch the video (and pay attention to the oscilloscope displays), then try it for yourself to see what happens. I hope this helps — Regards Andy, G8TQH On 30 Jul 2015, at 09:36, Peter Eijlander (PA0PJE) pa0...@xs4all.nl wrote: Op 2015-07-30 06:09 schreef Joe Subich, W4TV: The individual posting this does not know what he's talking about. His instruction to set the microphone level to 100% is completely *wrong*. Joe, I have the impression he *DOES* know what he's talking about... This is a bug he's reporting in the Windows operating system in conjunction with a certain brand of devices. 73, Peter __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to a...@rickham.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Windows 10 Bug
On 2015-07-30 4:36 AM, Peter Eijlander (PA0PJE) wrote: I have the impression he *DOES* know what he's talking about... Any time someone says to run the microphone level of a PCM29xx series USB CODEC at 100%, he obviously does not know what he is talking about. 100% represents 30 dB of gain (appropriate for a microphone) - about a 30 x increase in voltage between the codec input and ADC - which will most certainly cause clipping. The Microsoft supplied drivers for Windows 7 (and presumably Windows XP/Vista) do not make setting the CODEC gain easy as they are *all gain* from 3% to 100% but it can be done. The drivers for Windows 8/8.1 have been fixed in that the microphone setting is gain above about 50% and attenuation below that. *THERE IS NO PROBLEM IN WINDOWS 8/8.1*. In any Windows version the easy solution is to *right click* on the microphone slider, set the units to display in dB, and set the level to 0 dB +/- 1 dB. In addition to the difficulty in setting levels in Windows 7 and before, there is a bug in the USB Audio Class driver with regard to any USB Audio device that reports *one* microphone input - Windows will reset the level to maximum gain each time that endpoint (input) is opened. Resetting the input level to 100% is the only bug here and that has been fixed in Windows 8/8.1 (presumably Windows 10 but I have not updated any of my systems to confirm the repair is present). 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 2015-07-30 4:36 AM, Peter Eijlander (PA0PJE) wrote: Op 2015-07-30 06:09 schreef Joe Subich, W4TV: The individual posting this does not know what he's talking about. His instruction to set the microphone level to 100% is completely *wrong*. Joe, I have the impression he *DOES* know what he's talking about... This is a bug he's reporting in the Windows operating system in conjunction with a certain brand of devices. 73, Peter __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Windows 10 Bug
Joe, what device do you use in the Microham? 73, W0EA TJ QRP ARCI #14612 | CW Ops #953 | SKCC #4593T NAQCC #3768 | Flying Pigs QRP #2254 http://W0EA.us *Because QRO is too easy (but sometimes required!)* __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Windows 10 Bug
On 2015-07-30 12:36 AM, TJ Campie wrote: Joe, You are correct when the input device has been enumerated as a microphone input, which is the bug. No, enumerating the device as a microphone input is *not a bug* when the device descriptor specifically identifies the input as microphone. If the designer is using the PCM290x device in a line in deign, he should be using the PCM290xC (or current equivalent) which identifies the input terminal as 0x603 (Line connector) instead of the PCM290xB which identifies as microphone. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 2015-07-30 12:36 AM, TJ Campie wrote: Joe, You are correct when the input device has been enumerated as a microphone input, which is the bug. Without clearing the bug forcing windows to enumerate it as a line in device, 100 on the slider is indeed adding gain. However after clearing the bug, it's now enumerated as a line in device and 100 on the slider is 0db, even if it reads +30 (the UI and dialogue box still thinks this is a microphone input device, this is part of the bug). This was verified by feeding a reference signal of a known level into the chip and obtaining a known output level, confirming 100 on the slider is indeed 0db of gain/attenuation AFTER clearing the bug. This behaviour is confirmed by TI themselves in this whitepaper: http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sbfa020/sbfa020.pdf If you have a signal generator I highly recommend feeding a reference level signal into a device using the chip and measuring the output yourself AFTER clearing the bug. Remember, you are correct that the slider value will add gain when it's been incorrectly enumerated as a microphone device. Measure a reference input signal AFTER clearing it. Hope that helps the confusion 73 TJ W0EA __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Windows 10 Bug
This is a Windows related bug documented by Texas Instruments on their Rev B versions of the PCM29xx USB Sound CODEC. TI has fixed this issue in PCM29xxC. and later revisions. On the K3S we are using PCM2901E revision (newer than C). It does not have this problem. TI's Application Note about this: http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sbfa020/sbfa020.pdf 73, Eric /elecraft.com/ === On 7/30/2015 7:55 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: On 2015-07-30 12:36 AM, TJ Campie wrote: Joe, You are correct when the input device has been enumerated as a microphone input, which is the bug. No, enumerating the device as a microphone input is *not a bug* when the device descriptor specifically identifies the input as microphone. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Windows 10 Bug
I remember when 'the masses' were crying for a USB connection. Our great sages at Elecraft kept suggesting that compatibility issues would come along with USB et al. Guess this would have been one ( or could have been one) if the USB was a few years ago, and our designers were not as slick as they are. It appears now MS needs to accommodate some slight missteps. bill A K3 into a happy Microham , no need for usb __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Windows 10 Bug
Op 2015-07-30 06:09 schreef Joe Subich, W4TV: The individual posting this does not know what he's talking about. His instruction to set the microphone level to 100% is completely *wrong*. Joe, I have the impression he *DOES* know what he's talking about... This is a bug he's reporting in the Windows operating system in conjunction with a certain brand of devices. 73, Peter __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Windows 10 Bug
I respectfully suggest that you watch his video and listen to the explanation before making comments. In particular, when software is not executing correctly you should remember that it is not doing what it is supposed to do. He does not ask you to set the microphone level to 100% — he says to adjust the erroneous interface control to the 100% position. Not the same thing. Watch the video (and pay attention to the oscilloscope displays), then try it for yourself to see what happens. I hope this helps — Regards Andy, G8TQH On 30 Jul 2015, at 09:36, Peter Eijlander (PA0PJE) pa0...@xs4all.nl wrote: Op 2015-07-30 06:09 schreef Joe Subich, W4TV: The individual posting this does not know what he's talking about. His instruction to set the microphone level to 100% is completely *wrong*. Joe, I have the impression he *DOES* know what he's talking about... This is a bug he's reporting in the Windows operating system in conjunction with a certain brand of devices. 73, Peter __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to a...@rickham.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] Windows 10 Bug
This may be worth investigation pertaining to the K3S USB application. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guH0NMRRTAowidehd=1 It affects audio through USB when running digital modes. 73 Bob, K4TAX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Windows 10 Bug
Joe, You are correct when the input device has been enumerated as a microphone input, which is the bug. Without clearing the bug forcing windows to enumerate it as a line in device, 100 on the slider is indeed adding gain. However after clearing the bug, it's now enumerated as a line in device and 100 on the slider is 0db, even if it reads +30 (the UI and dialogue box still thinks this is a microphone input device, this is part of the bug). This was verified by feeding a reference signal of a known level into the chip and obtaining a known output level, confirming 100 on the slider is indeed 0db of gain/attenuation AFTER clearing the bug. This behaviour is confirmed by TI themselves in this whitepaper: http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sbfa020/sbfa020.pdf If you have a signal generator I highly recommend feeding a reference level signal into a device using the chip and measuring the output yourself AFTER clearing the bug. Remember, you are correct that the slider value will add gain when it's been incorrectly enumerated as a microphone device. Measure a reference input signal AFTER clearing it. Hope that helps the confusion 73 TJ W0EA __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Windows 10 Bug
The individual posting this does not know what he's talking about. His instruction to set the microphone level to 100% is completely *wrong*. Right click on the microphone slider and set the display for *dB*. In Windows 7 the microphone slider scale will range from -196.0 dB at 0 to +30 dB at 100% while in Windows 8.1 the scale will be -96.0 dB to +30.0 dB. Negative gain levels represent attenuation in the CODEC while positive gain levels represent excess gain. Sands is completely *wrong* when he says any value below 100% represents attenuation. In fact *any* dB value above 0.0 represents *GAIN* in the CODEC. The best recommendation for setting USB levels for any microphone input supported by the Windows USB Audio Class driver is: - go to Control Panel | Sound | Recording tab, double click on Microphone - USB Audio Codec device - on the Levels tab, right click on the microphone slider and set the units to *dB* - adjust the slider for 0.0 dB +/- 0.5 dB - this will typically be 3% in Windows 7 and 54% in Windows 8.1 - tune to strong carrier (S9+) - watch VU meter on Recording tab and adjust output level from the radio (typically the RX pot on the interface - Line Out in the K3/K3S) to 2 bars below full scale. If it not possible to reach 2 bars below full scale (the K3/K3S has plenty of excess drive) increase the level slider slightly until signal is no more than 2 bars below full scale. I no longer have working XP or Vista systems and do not recommend the use of obsolete operating systems. However, the same procedure (adjust for 0.0 +/- 0.5 dB) should also work with XP and Vista to prevent overdrive and clipping there. In any operating system, a 0 dB input gain setting will provide the best balance of dynamic range and sensitivity in a sound card with properly designed audio input circuits. Audio from the transceiver should be set so the no-signal sky noise is about 15 dB above the noise floor of the CODEC and the strongest signals no more than 2 bars below the top of the VU Meter to prevent clipping. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 2015-07-29 11:13 PM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX wrote: This may be worth investigation pertaining to the K3S USB application. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guH0NMRRTAowidehd=1 It affects audio through USB when running digital modes. 73 Bob, K4TAX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to li...@subich.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
