Re: [EM] Question about complete clone independence

2000-05-07 Thread DEMOREP1

Source of clones--

Simple example--

N1 AB
N2 BA

Clone C comes along.

N1.1  CAB  C 1st
N1.2  ACB  C 2nd
N1.3  ABC  C 3rd
N1  Total

N2.1  CBA C 1st
N2.2  BCA C 2nd
N2.3  BAC C 3rd
N2 Total

If the clone is not in last place, then it generates some confusion.

If there are 3 or more choices, the question becomes who is the bigger clone ?

That is, a starting ABC example can go backwards to an original AB/BA  or 
AC/CA or BC/CB combination with C, B or A being respectively added as greater 
or lesser clones.

How many of the clones can get YES majority votes (regardless of the other 
choices being present) ?

Can a clone defeat each other choice head to head ?  Sometimes YES, sometimes 
NO.

If a first place vote does not elect a choice (by getting a majority of all 
first place votes), only then is it necessary to look at second (or later) 
place votes.

If the voters like clones, then so what ?




Re: [EM] Question about complete clone independence

2000-05-04 Thread Markus Schulze

By the way, I have to agree with Steve Eppley that _every_
criterion (e.g. Monotonicity, Participation) should be
defined in the probabilistic context so that it is not
possible to circumvent the corresponding problems simply
by saying that "some random mechanisms" should be used in
these problematic situations. Criteria should always be
defined in such a manner that (1) those who support random
election methods are urged to say explicitely which random
mechanism should be used and that (2) it can be checked
whether this strategical problem is really removed by the
proposed random mechanism.

Markus Schulze
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Re: [EM] Question about complete clone independence

2000-05-03 Thread Markus Schulze

Dear Steve,

you wrote (3 May 2000):
 I haven't managed to read every message in EM, and my memory of 
 those I've read isn't perfect, so I'm unsure whether the 
 definitions in EM of clones and independence from clones have 
 changed significantly since the following was posted by Markus 
 in 1997:

Definition:  A[1],...,A[m] are a set of m twins
if  only if for each pair (A[i],A[j]) of two
candidates of the set of m twins, for each voter V,
and for each candidate C outside the set of m twins,
the following statements are true:

V prefers A[i] to C if  only if V prefers A[j] to C.
V prefers C to A[i] if  only if V prefers C to A[j].

Definition:  A voting method meets the "Generalized
Independence from Twins Criterion" (GITC) if  only if
additional twins cannot change the result of the elections.
(If one twin is elected instead of another twin, then
this is not regarded as a change of the result.)

 Consider the following scenario:  There are three candidates 
 x, y, and z, exactly one must be elected, and every voter is 
 indifferent between every candidate.  As I understand the 
 definition of clones (a.k.a. twins), there are 4 sets of clones 
 which contain at least two alternatives:

   {x,y,z}, {x,y}, {y,z}, {x,z}

 The first set is "trivial" since all alternatives are in the 
 set.  Consider one of the non-trivial clone sets, say {x,y}:  
 If only x and z compete, then z has a 1/2 chance of winning, 
 given a single-winner voting procedure which satisfies anonymity 
 and neutrality.  Adding y (which is a clone of x) decreases z's 
 chance of winning to 1/3.  So unless the definition of clones is 
 modified, the completeness of the independence is questionable.  
 Perhaps there are other scenarios exhibiting this problem which 
 do not depend on massive indifference.

This problem has been discussed in August 1998. The definition of
clones was changed as follows (28 Aug 1998):
 Definition ("clones"):

A[1],...,A[m] are a set of m clones if  only if the following
two statements are valid:

(1) For every pair (A[i],A[j]) of two candidates of this set,

for every voter V, and

for every candidate C outside this set

the following two statements are valid:

(a) V strictly prefers A[i] to C,
if  only if V strictly prefers A[j] to C.
(b) V strictly prefers C to A[i],
if  only if V strictly prefers C to A[j].

(2) For every candidate A[k] of this set and
for every candidate D outside this set
there is at least one voter W, who either
strictly prefers A[k] to D or strictly prefers D to A[k].

The aim of statement (2) is to exclude explicitely those situations
where every voter is indifferent.

**

You wrote (3 May 2000):
 I'd also like to suggest that the definition of independence be 
 rephrased, if it has not already been, so that it requires the 
 *probability* of election of a non-clone remain unchanged when 
 clones are added.  Otherwise, it's hard to say whether voting 
 procedures which are not completely deterministic can rigorously 
 satisfy the criterion; outcomes cannot be directly compared when 
 randomness is involved, but probabilities of outcomes can be 
 directly compared.

I agree with you. That's also the reason why I am talking so
vaguely about the "result of the elections" and not about the
"winner." Those who promote random election methods usually
consider the random distribution and not the winner to be the
"result of the elections."

Markus Schulze
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