Re: [Emc-developers] [Emc-users] Code of Conduct
Alec, there may be a misunderstanding here, I don't recall making any comments about Junteenth in any way. If you can sight the comments that I have made, then I can either take the blame or defend my integrity. My comments may have been included in someone else rant. You included the one and only comment that I have made on this subject. Any other text is not mine. On 6/30/21 1:02 AM, Alec Ari via Emc-developers wrote: Kirk said: "In my view, the LinuxCNC user list has been too toxic to be involved with for the last few years. It has been toxic long enough that the usual suspects have grown used to their habits and don't know any better. Fortunately for me, I have learned enough to fix whatever goes wrong with my machines or the software, but it hurts to see this drive away the people that have provided the foundation for this amazing project for the last twenty years. Sincerely, Kirk Wallace" That was after Kirk went on a political/racist rant about Juneteeth and how stupid and expensive it is. He's just another snowflake who's pointing the finger at everyone but himself. Cheers! Alec ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
Re: [Emc-developers] [Emc-users] Code of Conduct
Sorry to jump in again on the topic, that's exactly the why a CoC is necessary: it lets the community state what is the expected behavior, and the procedures to follow in case there is a violation. Obviously toxic behavior shouln't be admitted, even Alec's comment is contemptuous to Kirk. Human interaction can open unexpected Pandora's boxes, which put the community at risk. Avoiding this risk is the whole purpose of CoCs existence in first place, thus if we care about the project long term well-being we should welcome the institution of a CoC. I said I would not write for long time, but I have to heart this project and I feel that this issue must be resolved in a quite radical way, purifying the project's social places and development places from toxicism, so that people finds a welcoming project and is enticed to stay and contribute. Regards On Wed, 2021-06-30 at 04:53 +, Chris Morley wrote: > I don't see Kirk's message in this thread (or Seb's) > > I don't think adding a coc helps. - in fact it created negative > results. > I don't think there was much discussion before the was pushed out as > an official position. > I am a long term active developer and I saw a couple sentences in IRC > - hardly official/comprehensive discussion. > > Having a discussion of an actual problem could be helpful. > If there is a known problem - then we can and do deal with it. > > The intension may have been good but the execution missed the mark a > bit. > > Chris > > > > At the same time, it's good to be mindful of how the advice and help > we > give will be perceived; I think we should take to heart Kirk's > message > in this thread about toxic behavior. Kirk has been in this community > a > long time. How many more people simply left the community when they > arrived and got unhelpful help, likely with a dose of contempt? How > much > more vibrant could the community have been today if that is not how > it > happened? > developers mailing list > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers > > ___ > Emc-developers mailing list > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
Re: [Emc-developers] [Emc-users] Code of Conduct
Kirk said: "In my view, the LinuxCNC user list has been too toxic to be involved with for the last few years. It has been toxic long enough that the usual suspects have grown used to their habits and don't know any better. Fortunately for me, I have learned enough to fix whatever goes wrong with my machines or the software, but it hurts to see this drive away the people that have provided the foundation for this amazing project for the last twenty years. Sincerely, Kirk Wallace" That was after Kirk went on a political/racist rant about Juneteeth and how stupid and expensive it is. He's just another snowflake who's pointing the finger at everyone but himself. Cheers! Alec ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
Re: [Emc-developers] [Emc-users] Code of Conduct
I don't see Kirk's message in this thread (or Seb's) I don't think adding a coc helps. - in fact it created negative results. I don't think there was much discussion before the was pushed out as an official position. I am a long term active developer and I saw a couple sentences in IRC - hardly official/comprehensive discussion. Having a discussion of an actual problem could be helpful. If there is a known problem - then we can and do deal with it. The intension may have been good but the execution missed the mark a bit. Chris At the same time, it's good to be mindful of how the advice and help we give will be perceived; I think we should take to heart Kirk's message in this thread about toxic behavior. Kirk has been in this community a long time. How many more people simply left the community when they arrived and got unhelpful help, likely with a dose of contempt? How much more vibrant could the community have been today if that is not how it happened? developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
Re: [Emc-developers] [Emc-users] Code of Conduct
> The problem is with what is perceived as acceptable and by whom. > Different people perceive things differently based on their > background, > experiences, education, parenting, intelligence, age, environment, > country they live in, etc. etc. I'd like to add to this. If I was Kirk and someone developed a CoC while referencing me as the reason why it exists, I'd be insulted because you're treating me like I'm incapable of moving on from what someone said on the internet. Alec ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
Re: [Emc-developers] [Emc-users] Code of Conduct
On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 19:47, Jeff Epler wrote: > At the same time, it's good to be mindful of how the advice and help we > give will be perceived; I think we should take to heart Kirk's message > in this thread about toxic behavior. Kirk has been in this community a > long time. Yes, I read that, and is saddened me. But in more than just the obvious way, because that means that some of us have been acting in a way that upset Kirk, but if you asked us I would bet that not one of us would think that we had. I am not sure that a CoC is any help there, until Kirk said what he said I had always considered this mailing list to be friendly, and that I was already behaving according to the CoC. -- atp "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics." — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912 ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
Re: [Emc-developers] [Emc-users] Code of Conduct
On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 07:19:08PM +0100, andy pugh wrote: > On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 16:39, andy pugh wrote: > > > I largely agree, apart from prohibiting "answering outside the scope > > of the question" > > Thanks for reconsidering this clause, Seb. I see a number of reasonable folks here concerned about how this rule would be interpreted and applied, and I don't mind seeing it removed. I talked to one of the community moderators at Adafruit, where most of the wording was adopted from. It sounds like there was a specific need for it there, and those circumstances don't apply to LinuxCNC. At the same time, it's good to be mindful of how the advice and help we give will be perceived; I think we should take to heart Kirk's message in this thread about toxic behavior. Kirk has been in this community a long time. How many more people simply left the community when they arrived and got unhelpful help, likely with a dose of contempt? How much more vibrant could the community have been today if that is not how it happened? We've got stuff to work on, y'all. Communities are work to maintain, just like software is. Jeff ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
Re: [Emc-developers] [Emc-users] Code of Conduct
On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 16:39, andy pugh wrote: > I largely agree, apart from prohibiting "answering outside the scope > of the question" Thanks for reconsidering this clause, Seb. I have been discussing it with a friend, and he has seen it be a real problem in tabletop gaming. I could imagine it being extremely frustrating in online gaming too, for example a super-powerful character destroying all your enemies for you could "help" all the fun out of the game. I can think of similar issues in a social networking platform. But in a technical support forum, it seems out of place. -- atp "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics." — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912 ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
Re: [Emc-developers] [Emc-users] Code of Conduct
Moving this back to -devel On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 16:28, Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote: > Nothing in the Code of Conduct should be surprising to anyone here - it > really is all common sense "don't be a jerk" type stuff. I largely agree, apart from prohibiting "answering outside the scope of the question" On the forum there are frequently questions along the lines of "how do I make this random selection of [HAL] components work" and I will often answer with an explanation of how to do it with completely different [HAL] components. Is this being too helpful? Disrespecting someone's approach to the problem? Or is it giving the answer that they didn't know that they wanted? It might be all or none of those, but my _intentions_ are good. But this (and other) CoC's don't seem to consider intention, just perception. -- atp "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics." — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912 ___ Emc-developers mailing list Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
