Re: The limit of all computations
On 23 May 2012, at 01:22, Stephen P. King wrote: On 5/22/2012 6:01 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/5/22 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net No, Bruno, it is not Neutral monism as such cannot assume any particular as primitive, even if it is quantity itself, for to do such is to violate the very notion of neutrality itself. You might like to spend some time reading Spinoza and Bertrand Russell's discussions of this. I did not invent this line of reasoning. Neutral monism, in philosophy, is the metaphysical view that the mental and the physical are two ways of organizing or describing the same elements, which are themselves neutral, that is, neither physical nor mental. I don't see how taking N,+,* as primitive is not neutral monism. It is neither physical nor mental. If mathematical objects are not within the category of Mental then that is news to philosophers... If mathematical objects are within the category of Mental then that is news to mathematicians... And it is disastrous for those who want study the mental by defining it by the mathematical, as in computer science, cognitive science, artificial intelligence, etc; even more perplexing to me; how is it that the Integers are given such special status, Because of digital in digital mechanism. It is not so much an emphasis on numbers, than on finite. So how do you justify finiteness? I have been accused of having the everything disease whose symptom is the inability to conceive anything but infinite, ill defined ensembles, but in my defense I must state that what I am conceiving is an over-abundance of very precisely defined ensembles. My disease is the inability to properly articulate a written description. especially when we cast aside all possibility (within our ontology) of the reality of the physical world? Not at all. Only primitively physical reality is put in doubt. Not me. I already came to the conclusion that reality cannot be primitively physical. You are unclear on what you posit. You always came back to the physical reality point, so I don't know what more to say... either you agree physical reality is not ontologically primitive or you don't, there's no in between position. We have to start at the physical reality that we individually experience, it is, aside from our awareness, the most real thing we have to stand upon philosophically. The most real things might be consciousness, here and now. And this doesn't make consciousness primitive, but invite us to be methodologically skeptical on the physical, as we know since the dream argument. From there we venture out in our speculations as to our ontology. cosmogony and epistemology. is there an alternative? So you start from physics? This contradicts your neutral monism. Without the physical world to act as a selection mechanism for what is Real, This contradicts your neutral monism. No, it does not. Please see my discussion of neutral monism above. Yes it does, reading you, you posit a physical material reality as primitive, which is not neutral... No, I posit the physical and the mental as real in the sense that I am experiencing them. You can't experience the physical. The physical is inferred from theory, even if automated by years of evolution. Telescoping out to the farthest point of abstraction we have ideas like Bruno's. I guess that I need to draw some diagrams... Not ideas. Universal truth following a deduction in a theoretical frame. It is just a theorem in applied logic: if we are digital machine, then physics (whatever inferable from observable) is derivable from arithmetic. Adding anything to it, *cannot* be of any use (cf UDA step 7 and 8). You are free to use any philosophy you want to *find* a flaw in the reasoning, but a philosophical conviction does not refute it by itself. If you think there is a loophole, just show it to us. why the bias for integers? Because comp = machine, and machine are supposed to be of the type finitely describable. This is true only after the possibility of determining differences is stipulated. One cannot assume a neutral monism that stipulates a non-neutral stance, to do so it a contradiction. Computationalism is the theory that your consciousness can be emulated on a turing machine, a program is a finite object and can be described by an integer. I don't see a contradiction. I am with Penrose in claiming that consciousness is not emulable by a finite machine. This contradicts your statement that your theory is consistent with comp (as it is not, as I argue to you). You are making my point. It took time. This has been a question that I have tried to get answered to no avail. You don't listen. This has been repeated very often. When you say yes to the doctor, you accept that you
Re: The limit of all computations
On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 09:56:24AM -0500, Joseph Knight wrote: On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 7:36 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: On 5/21/2012 6:26 PM, Russell Standish wrote: Yes, that is the usual meaning. It can also be written (DP or not COMP). = = or not] Actually a implies b is defined as not a or b. Whoops! (#.#) -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Bases and other strange things
The definition is a somewhat wordy, but essentially technically correct, form of the standard definition of a basis in Linear Algebra. What is your question, exactly? Cheers On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 09:09:07AM -0400, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Folks, Lizr's resent post got me thinking again about the concept of a basis and reading the wiki article brought up a question. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basis_%28linear_algebra%29 In linear algebra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_algebra, a *basis* is a set of linearly independent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_independence vectors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_space that, in a linear combination http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_combination, can represent every vector in a given vector space http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_space or free module http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_module, or, more simply put, which define a coordinate system /_*(as long as the basis is given a definite order*_/). The reference to that phrase that I have highlighted was unavailable, so I ask the resident scholars here for any comment on it. -- Onward! Stephen Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed. ~ Francis Bacon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Bases and other strange things
On 5/23/2012 1:03 AM, Russell Standish wrote: The definition is a somewhat wordy, but essentially technically correct, form of the standard definition of a basis in Linear Algebra. What is your question, exactly? Hi Russell, Could you elaborate on the dependence of the basis being given in a definite order? Cheers On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 09:09:07AM -0400, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Folks, Lizr's resent post got me thinking again about the concept of a basis and reading the wiki article brought up a question. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basis_%28linear_algebra%29 In linear algebrahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_algebra, a *basis* is a set of linearly independent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_independence vectors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_space that, in a linear combinationhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_combination, can represent every vector in a given vector space http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_space or free module http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_module, or, more simply put, which define a coordinate system /_*(as long as the basis is given a definite order*_/). The reference to that phrase that I have highlighted was unavailable, so I ask the resident scholars here for any comment on it. -- Onward! Stephen Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed. ~ Francis Bacon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The limit of all computations
On 23 May 2012, at 07:21, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 09:56:24AM -0500, Joseph Knight wrote: On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 7:36 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: On 5/21/2012 6:26 PM, Russell Standish wrote: Yes, that is the usual meaning. It can also be written (DP or not COMP). = = or not] Actually a implies b is defined as not a or b. Whoops! (#.#) To be sure I usually use - for the material implication, that is a - b is indeed not a or b (or not(a and not b)). The IF ... THEN used in math is generally of that type. I use a = b for from a I can derive b, in the theory I am currently considering. For any theory having the modus ponens rule, we have that a - b entails (yet at another meta-level) a = b. This should be trivial. For many quite standard logics, the reciprocal is correct too, that is: a = b entails a - b. This is usually rather hard to prove (Herbrand or deduction theorem). It is typically false in modal logic or in many weak logics. For example the normal modal logics (those having Kripke semantics, like G, S4, ...) are all close for the rule a = Ba, but virtually none can prove the formula a - Ba. This is a source of many errors. Simple Exercises (for those remembering Kripke semantics): 1) find a Kripke model falsifying a - Ba. 2) explain to yourself why a = Ba is always the case in all Kripke models. I recall that a Kripke model is a set (of worlds) with a binary relation (accessibility relation). The key is that Ba is true in a world Alpha is a is true in all worlds Beta such that (Alpha, Beta) is in the accessibility relation. A beginners course in logic consists in six month of explanation of the difference between a - b and a = b, and then six month of proving them equivalent (in classical logic). a = b is often written: a _ b Like in the modus ponens rule a a - b b Bruno -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The limit of all computations
On 23 May 2012, at 02:54, meekerdb wrote: On 5/22/2012 4:22 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 5/22/2012 6:01 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/5/22 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net No, Bruno, it is not Neutral monism as such cannot assume any particular as primitive, even if it is quantity itself, for to do such is to violate the very notion of neutrality itself. You might like to spend some time reading Spinoza and Bertrand Russell's discussions of this. I did not invent this line of reasoning. Neutral monism, in philosophy, is the metaphysical view that the mental and the physical are two ways of organizing or describing the same elements, which are themselves neutral, that is, neither physical nor mental. I don't see how taking N,+,* as primitive is not neutral monism. It is neither physical nor mental. If mathematical objects are not within the category of Mental then that is news to philosophers... even more perplexing to me; how is it that the Integers are given such special status, Because of digital in digital mechanism. It is not so much an emphasis on numbers, than on finite. So how do you justify finiteness? I have been accused of having the everything disease whose symptom is the inability to conceive anything but infinite, ill defined ensembles, but in my defense I must state that what I am conceiving is an over- abundance of very precisely defined ensembles. My disease is the inability to properly articulate a written description. especially when we cast aside all possibility (within our ontology) of the reality of the physical world? Not at all. Only primitively physical reality is put in doubt. Not me. I already came to the conclusion that reality cannot be primitively physical. You are unclear on what you posit. You always came back to the physical reality point, so I don't know what more to say... either you agree physical reality is not ontologically primitive or you don't, there's no in between position. We have to start at the physical reality that we individually experience, it is, aside from our awareness, the most real thing we have to stand upon philosophically. From there we venture out in our speculations as to our ontology. cosmogony and epistemology. is there an alternative? Without the physical world to act as a selection mechanism for what is Real, This contradicts your neutral monism. No, it does not. Please see my discussion of neutral monism above. Yes it does, reading you, you posit a physical material reality as primitive, which is not neutral... No, I posit the physical and the mental as real in the sense that I am experiencing them. The physical world is a model. It's a very good model and I like it, but like any model you can't *know* whether it's really real or not. Bruno's model explains some things the physical model doesn't, but so far it doesn't seem to have the predictive power that the physical model does. Hmm... I agree with all your points in this post, except this one. The comp model (theory) has much more predictive power than physics, given that it predicts the whole of physics, and the whole of what that physics predicts (and this without mentioning that it predicts the whole qualia part too, unlike the physics model). But it does it in a very more difficult way, without copying on nature. Of course it might be false. It might be that comp leads to a different mass for the electron or to the non existence of electrons. But comp, together with some definition of knowledge, predicts physics quantitatively and qualitatively. Of course to use comp to predict an eclipse is not yet in its range, if it can ever be. To use comp for this, would be like using string theory to prepare a cup of tea. But the goal is not to do physics, just to formulate the mind-body problem, and figure out the less wrong bigger picture. Bruno Telescoping out to the farthest point of abstraction we have ideas like Bruno's. I guess that I need to draw some diagrams... why the bias for integers? Because comp = machine, and machine are supposed to be of the type finitely describable. This is true only after the possibility of determining differences is stipulated. One cannot assume a neutral monism that stipulates a non-neutral stance, to do so it a contradiction. Computationalism is the theory that your consciousness can be emulated on a turing machine, a program is a finite object and can be described by an integer. I don't see a contradiction. I am with Penrose in claiming that consciousness is not emulable by a finite machine. It's instantiated by brains which are empirically finite. Penrose's argument from Godelian incompleteness is fallacious. This has been a question that I have tried to get answered to no avail. You don't
Re: Bases and other strange things
On 5/23/2012 4:53 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 5/23/2012 1:03 AM, Russell Standish wrote: The definition is a somewhat wordy, but essentially technically correct, form of the standard definition of a basis in Linear Algebra. What is your question, exactly? Hi Russell, Could you elaborate on the dependence of the basis being given in a definite order? I don't think the order of the basis elements has any significance except notationally when a general element is expressed as an n-tuple in terms of the basis. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The limit of all computations
On 5/23/2012 8:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hmm... I agree with all your points in this post, except this one. The comp model (theory) has much more predictive power than physics, given that it predicts the whole of physics, It's easy to predict the whole of physics; just predict that everything happens. But that's not predictive power. Brent and the whole of what that physics predicts (and this without mentioning that it predicts the whole qualia part too, unlike the physics model). But it does it in a very more difficult way, without copying on nature. Of course it might be false. It might be that comp leads to a different mass for the electron or to the non existence of electrons. But comp, together with some definition of knowledge, predicts physics quantitatively and qualitatively. Of course to use comp to predict an eclipse is not yet in its range, if it can ever be. To use comp for this, would be like using string theory to prepare a cup of tea. But the goal is not to do physics, just to formulate the mind-body problem, and figure out the less wrong bigger picture. Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The limit of all computations
On 23.05.2012 10:47 Bruno Marchal said the following: On 23 May 2012, at 01:22, Stephen P. King wrote: ... If mathematical objects are not within the category of Mental then that is news to philosophers... If mathematical objects are within the category of Mental then that is news to mathematicians... Let us take terms like information, computation, etc. Are they mental or mathematical? It might be good simultaneously to extend this question by including general terms that people use to describe the word. Are mathematical objects then are different from them? Evgenii -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The limit of all computations
On 5/23/2012 4:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 May 2012, at 01:22, Stephen P. King wrote: On 5/22/2012 6:01 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/5/22 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net mailto:stephe...@charter.net No, Bruno, it is not Neutral monism as such cannot assume any particular as primitive, even if it is quantity itself, for to do such is to violate the very notion of neutrality itself. You might like to spend some time reading Spinoza http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spinoza/ and Bertrand Russell's discussions of this. I did not invent this line of reasoning. *Neutral monism*, in philosophy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy, is the metaphysical http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics view that the mental and the physical are two ways of organizing or describing the same elements, which are themselves neutral, that is, neither physical nor mental. I don't see how taking N,+,* as primitive is not neutral monism. It is neither physical nor mental. If mathematical objects are not within the category of Mental then that is news to philosophers... If mathematical objects are within the category of Mental then that is news to mathematicians... And it is disastrous for those who want study the mental by defining it by the mathematical, as in computer science, cognitive science, artificial intelligence, etc; Are we being intentionally unable to understand the obvious? Do we physically interact with mathematical objects? No. Thus they are not in the physical realm. We interact with mathematical objects with our minds, thus they are in the mental realm. Not complicated. even more perplexing to me; how is it that the Integers are given such special status, Because of digital in digital mechanism. It is not so much an emphasis on numbers, than on finite. So how do you justify finiteness? I have been accused of having the everything disease whose symptom is the inability to conceive anything but infinite, ill defined ensembles, but in my defense I must state that what I am conceiving is an over-abundance of very precisely defined ensembles. My disease is the inability to properly articulate a written description. especially when we cast aside all possibility (within our ontology) of the reality of the physical world? Not at all. Only primitively physical reality is put in doubt. Not me. I already came to the conclusion that reality cannot be primitively physical. You are unclear on what you posit. You always came back to the physical reality point, so I don't know what more to say... either you agree physical reality is not ontologically primitive or you don't, there's no in between position. We have to start at the physical reality that we individually experience, it is, aside from our awareness, the most real thing we have to stand upon philosophically. The most real things might be consciousness, here and now. And this doesn't make consciousness primitive, but invite us to be methodologically skeptical on the physical, as we know since the dream argument. The only person that is making it, albeit indirectly by implication, is you, Bruno. You think that you are safe because you believe that you have isolated mathematics from the physical and from the contingency of having to be known by particular individuals, but you have not over come the basic flaw of Platonism: if you disconnect the Forms from consciousness you forever prevent the act of apprehension. You seem to think that property definiteness is an ontological a priori. You are not the first, E. Kant had the same delusion. From there we venture out in our speculations as to our ontology. cosmogony and epistemology. is there an alternative? So you start from physics? This contradicts your neutral monism. So you do need a diagram to understand a simple idea. Without the physical world to act as a selection mechanism for what is Real, This contradicts your neutral monism. No, it does not. Please see my discussion of neutral monism above. Yes it does, reading you, you posit a physical material reality as primitive, which is not neutral... No, I posit the physical and the mental as real in the sense that I am experiencing them. You can't experience the physical. The physical is inferred from theory, even if automated by years of evolution. We cannot experience anything directly, except for our individual consciousness, all else is inferred. Telescoping out to the farthest point of abstraction we have ideas like Bruno's. I guess that I need to draw some diagrams... Not ideas. Universal truth following a deduction in a theoretical frame. It is just a theorem in applied logic: if we are digital machine, then physics (whatever inferable from observable) is
Re: The limit of all computations
2012/5/23 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net On 5/23/2012 4:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 May 2012, at 01:22, Stephen P. King wrote: On 5/22/2012 6:01 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/5/22 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net No, Bruno, it is not Neutral monism as such cannot assume any particular as primitive, even if it is quantity itself, for to do such is to violate the very notion of neutrality itself. You might like to spend some time reading Spinoza http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spinoza/and Bertrand Russell's discussions of this. I did not invent this line of reasoning. *Neutral monism*, in philosophy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy, is the metaphysical http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics view that the mental and the physical are two ways of organizing or describing the same elements, which are themselves neutral, that is, neither physical nor mental. I don't see how taking N,+,* as primitive is not neutral monism. It is neither physical nor mental. If mathematical objects are not within the category of Mental then that is news to philosophers... If mathematical objects are within the category of Mental then that is news to mathematicians... And it is disastrous for those who want study the mental by defining it by the mathematical, as in computer science, cognitive science, artificial intelligence, etc; Are we being intentionally unable to understand the obvious? Do we physically interact with mathematical objects? No. Do you physically interact with the physical ? No ! no mind, no interaction, hence the physical is mental, QED... or what you say is just plain wrong... Quentin Thus they are not in the physical realm. We interact with mathematical objects with our minds, thus they are in the mental realm. Not complicated. even more perplexing to me; how is it that the Integers are given such special status, Because of digital in digital mechanism. It is not so much an emphasis on numbers, than on finite. So how do you justify finiteness? I have been accused of having the everything disease whose symptom is the inability to conceive anything but infinite, ill defined ensembles, but in my defense I must state that what I am conceiving is an over-abundance of very precisely defined ensembles. My disease is the inability to properly articulate a written description. especially when we cast aside all possibility (within our ontology) of the reality of the physical world? Not at all. Only primitively physical reality is put in doubt. Not me. I already came to the conclusion that reality cannot be primitively physical. You are unclear on what you posit. You always came back to the physical reality point, so I don't know what more to say... either you agree physical reality is not ontologically primitive or you don't, there's no in between position. We have to start at the physical reality that we individually experience, it is, aside from our awareness, the most real thing we have to stand upon philosophically. The most real things might be consciousness, here and now. And this doesn't make consciousness primitive, but invite us to be methodologically skeptical on the physical, as we know since the dream argument. The only person that is making it, albeit indirectly by implication, is you, Bruno. You think that you are safe because you believe that you have isolated mathematics from the physical and from the contingency of having to be known by particular individuals, but you have not over come the basic flaw of Platonism: if you disconnect the Forms from consciousness you forever prevent the act of apprehension. You seem to think that property definiteness is an ontological a priori. You are not the first, E. Kant had the same delusion. From there we venture out in our speculations as to our ontology. cosmogony and epistemology. is there an alternative? So you start from physics? This contradicts your neutral monism. So you do need a diagram to understand a simple idea. Without the physical world to act as a selection mechanism for what is Real, This contradicts your neutral monism. No, it does not. Please see my discussion of neutral monism above. Yes it does, reading you, you posit a physical material reality as primitive, which is not neutral... No, I posit the physical and the mental as real in the sense that I am experiencing them. You can't experience the physical. The physical is inferred from theory, even if automated by years of evolution. We cannot experience anything directly, except for our individual consciousness, all else is inferred. Telescoping out to the farthest point of abstraction we have ideas like Bruno's. I guess that I need to draw some diagrams... Not ideas. Universal truth following a deduction in a theoretical frame.
Re: The limit of all computations
On 5/23/2012 1:19 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 23.05.2012 10:47 Bruno Marchal said the following: On 23 May 2012, at 01:22, Stephen P. King wrote: ... If mathematical objects are not within the category of Mental then that is news to philosophers... If mathematical objects are within the category of Mental then that is news to mathematicians... Let us take terms like information, computation, etc. Are they mental or mathematical? It might be good simultaneously to extend this question by including general terms that people use to describe the word. Are mathematical objects then are different from them? Evgenii Hi Evgenii, There seems to be a divergence of definitions occurring. It might be better for me to withdraw from philosophical discussions for a while and focus just on mathematical questions, like the dependence on order of a basis... -- Onward! Stephen Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed. ~ Francis Bacon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The limit of all computations
On 23.05.2012 19:43 Stephen P. King said the following: ... There seems to be a divergence of definitions occurring. It might be better for me to withdraw from philosophical discussions for a while and focus just on mathematical questions, like the dependence on order of a basis... I believe that to this end, one just needs to number basis vectors, so we must order them. If I remember correctly, depending on how you order x, y, z you obtain either a right or left-handed coordinate system. Evgenii -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Free will in MWI
On Tue, May 22, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Nominated for a reason or nominated for no reason. Wrong. I am doing the nominating. You are doing the nominating for a reason or you are doing the nominating for no reason. I have many reasons Then you are deterministic. Many reasons do not make something less deterministic, it just makes it more complex; but if there were NO reasons then things really would be different, then things would be random. I can create a new course of action And you created that new course of action for a reason (or reasons) in which case it was deterministic, OR you created that new course of action for no reason, not even one, in which case your action was random. which cannot be reduced to 'for a reason or no reason'. There is only one thing that can not be reduced to X or not X, gibberish. When you say I want to do some things and don't want to do other things how is that not free will? So, you demand to know what the reason was that caused me to write what I did. If I said I wrote that for no reason at all then I am certain you would interpret that as a admission that I had lost the argument. But you are a fan of the free will noise so I don't understand why me saying I had no reason for doing something would not satisfy you. However I personally think it's bad form to write things for no reason, and so as it happens I did have a reason for writing what I wrote. The word will is not logically contradictory because I want to do something for a reason OR I want to do something for no reason. In free will I don't want to do something for a reason AND I don't want to do something for no reason; and that's what makes the free will noise triple distilled extra virgin 100% pure GIBBERISH. So the reason that caused my writing to differentiate between will and free will is that one is gibberish and the other is not. You can argue that this feeling of wanting to do things is an illusion I honestly don't know what to make of that. In the first place illusion is a perfectly real subjective phenomena and in the second place it's true, we really do want to do some things and not do other things. but that leaves the problem of what would be the point of such a feeling to exist in the universe that is purely deterministic. If the universe determines that my life has no meaning then the universe can kiss my ass because the universe is not in the meaning conveying business, intelligence is. A cloud of hydrogen gas a billion light years away can not give meaning to me but I can give meaning to it, and if the universe doesn't like that fact the universe can lump it. We interpret and execute the law Here we go again. We interpret and execute the law for a reason or we interpret and execute the law for no reason. There are laws we are compelled to observe and preserve Then we are deterministic. but the way we choose to do that [...] We choose the way we do that (and it does not matter what that is) for a reason or we choose the way we do that for no reason. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The limit of all computations
On 23 May 2012, at 19:19, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 23.05.2012 10:47 Bruno Marchal said the following: On 23 May 2012, at 01:22, Stephen P. King wrote: ... If mathematical objects are not within the category of Mental then that is news to philosophers... If mathematical objects are within the category of Mental then that is news to mathematicians... Let us take terms like information, computation, etc. Are they mental or mathematical? Information is vague, and can be both. Computation is mathematical, by using the Church (Turing Kleene Post Markov) thesis. But humans, and any universal machine, can mentally handle and reason on mathematical notions, implementing or representing them locally. With comp, trivially, the mental is the doing of a universal numbers. It might be good simultaneously to extend this question by including general terms that people use to describe the word. Are mathematical objects then are different from them? I am not sure I understand what you are asking. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The limit of all computations
On 23.05.2012 20:01 Bruno Marchal said the following: On 23 May 2012, at 19:19, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: ... Let us take terms like information, computation, etc. Are they mental or mathematical? Information is vague, and can be both. Computation is mathematical, by using the Church (Turing Kleene Post Markov) thesis. But humans, and any universal machine, can mentally handle and reason on mathematical notions, implementing or representing them locally. With comp, trivially, the mental is the doing of a universal numbers. It might be good simultaneously to extend this question by including general terms that people use to describe the word. Are mathematical objects then are different from them? I am not sure I understand what you are asking. I am talking about language that we use to describe the Nature. Information and computation were just an example. We can however find also energy, mass, or animal, human being. I guess that Plato has not limited the Platonia to the mathematical objects rather it was about ideas. So is my question. Let me repeat about the fight between realism vs. nominalism. Realism in this context is different from the modern meaning of the word. Realism and nominalism in philosophy are related to universals. A simple example: A is a person; B is a person. Does A is equal to B? The answer is no, A and B are after all different persons. Yet the question would be if something universal and related to a term “person” exists objectively (say as an objective attribute). Realism says that universals do exist independent from the mind, nominalism that they are just notation and do not exist as such independently from the mind. To me this difference realism vs. nominalism seems to be related to the question whether mathematical objects are mental or not. Evgenii -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The limit of all computations
On 23 May 2012, at 19:23, Stephen P. King wrote: On 5/23/2012 4:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 May 2012, at 01:22, Stephen P. King wrote: On 5/22/2012 6:01 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/5/22 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net No, Bruno, it is not Neutral monism as such cannot assume any particular as primitive, even if it is quantity itself, for to do such is to violate the very notion of neutrality itself. You might like to spend some time reading Spinoza and Bertrand Russell's discussions of this. I did not invent this line of reasoning. Neutral monism, in philosophy, is the metaphysical view that the mental and the physical are two ways of organizing or describing the same elements, which are themselves neutral, that is, neither physical nor mental. I don't see how taking N,+,* as primitive is not neutral monism. It is neither physical nor mental. If mathematical objects are not within the category of Mental then that is news to philosophers... If mathematical objects are within the category of Mental then that is news to mathematicians... And it is disastrous for those who want study the mental by defining it by the mathematical, as in computer science, cognitive science, artificial intelligence, etc; Are we being intentionally unable to understand the obvious? Do we physically interact with mathematical objects? No. Thus they are not in the physical realm. I can agree, and disagree. Too much fuzzy if you don't make your assumption clear. We interact with mathematical objects with our minds, thus they are in the mental realm. Not complicated. But like programs and music, number can incarnate disks and physical memories, locally. Now you do seem dualist, of the non monist kind. even more perplexing to me; how is it that the Integers are given such special status, Because of digital in digital mechanism. It is not so much an emphasis on numbers, than on finite. So how do you justify finiteness? I have been accused of having the everything disease whose symptom is the inability to conceive anything but infinite, ill defined ensembles, but in my defense I must state that what I am conceiving is an over- abundance of very precisely defined ensembles. My disease is the inability to properly articulate a written description. especially when we cast aside all possibility (within our ontology) of the reality of the physical world? Not at all. Only primitively physical reality is put in doubt. Not me. I already came to the conclusion that reality cannot be primitively physical. You are unclear on what you posit. You always came back to the physical reality point, so I don't know what more to say... either you agree physical reality is not ontologically primitive or you don't, there's no in between position. We have to start at the physical reality that we individually experience, it is, aside from our awareness, the most real thing we have to stand upon philosophically. The most real things might be consciousness, here and now. And this doesn't make consciousness primitive, but invite us to be methodologically skeptical on the physical, as we know since the dream argument. The only person that is making it, albeit indirectly by implication, is you, Bruno. You think that you are safe ? because you believe that you have isolated mathematics from the physical and from the contingency of having to be known by particular individuals, ? but you have not over come the basic flaw of Platonism: if you disconnect the Forms from consciousness you forever prevent the act of apprehension. You seem to think that property definiteness is an ontological a priori. You are not the first, E. Kant had the same delusion. ? (I only argue, showing the consistency and inconsistency of set of beliefs, in the comp theory). From there we venture out in our speculations as to our ontology. cosmogony and epistemology. is there an alternative? So you start from physics? This contradicts your neutral monism. So you do need a diagram to understand a simple idea. Without the physical world to act as a selection mechanism for what is Real, This contradicts your neutral monism. No, it does not. Please see my discussion of neutral monism above. Yes it does, reading you, you posit a physical material reality as primitive, which is not neutral... No, I posit the physical and the mental as real in the sense that I am experiencing them. You can't experience the physical. The physical is inferred from theory, even if automated by years of evolution. We cannot experience anything directly, except for our individual consciousness, all else is inferred. OK, so we agree on this. (it contradicts your sentence above). I guess it is your dyslexia and that you were meaning: No,
Re: The limit of all computations
On 23 May 2012, at 19:08, meekerdb wrote: On 5/23/2012 8:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hmm... I agree with all your points in this post, except this one. The comp model (theory) has much more predictive power than physics, given that it predicts the whole of physics, It's easy to predict the whole of physics; just predict that everything happens. But that's not predictive power. I will take it that you are forgetting the whole argument. When I say that it predicts the whole physics, I mean it literally. And not everything happens only something like what is described by the physical theories, except that physicists derive them from direct observation, and comp derives them by the logic of universal machine observable. Physics, with comp, and arguably already with QM, is not at all everything happens, but more everything interfere leading to non trivial symmetries and symmetries breaking, etc. Bruno Brent and the whole of what that physics predicts (and this without mentioning that it predicts the whole qualia part too, unlike the physics model). But it does it in a very more difficult way, without copying on nature. Of course it might be false. It might be that comp leads to a different mass for the electron or to the non existence of electrons. But comp, together with some definition of knowledge, predicts physics quantitatively and qualitatively. Of course to use comp to predict an eclipse is not yet in its range, if it can ever be. To use comp for this, would be like using string theory to prepare a cup of tea. But the goal is not to do physics, just to formulate the mind-body problem, and figure out the less wrong bigger picture. Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The limit of all computations
On 5/23/2012 11:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 May 2012, at 19:08, meekerdb wrote: On 5/23/2012 8:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hmm... I agree with all your points in this post, except this one. The comp model (theory) has much more predictive power than physics, given that it predicts the whole of physics, It's easy to predict the whole of physics; just predict that everything happens. But that's not predictive power. I will take it that you are forgetting the whole argument. When I say that it predicts the whole physics, I mean it literally. And not everything happens only something like what is described by the physical theories, except that physicists derive them from direct observation, and comp derives them by the logic of universal machine observable. Physics, with comp, and arguably already with QM, is not at all everything happens, but more everything interfere leading to non trivial symmetries and symmetries breaking, etc. Bruno I don't see that comp has predicted anything except uncertainty. Can comp explain the reason QM is based on complex Hilbert space instead or real, or quaternion, or octonion? Can it explain where the mass gap comes from? Can it predict the dimensionality of spacetime? Can it tell whether spacetime is discrete at some level? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
RE: The limit of all computations
Hi Brent: What you appear to be asking for are predictions of the physics of a particular universe. My belief is that the best we can do is to predict the components of physics common to every evolving universe. My efforts have focused on understanding why there is a dynamic within the Everything [such as UDs] and what observers in a universe containing them are observing. In my model I have identified a dynamic driver [incompleteness] and what observers observe [TRANSITIONS between universe states]. Since I do not prohibit computations, I believe Comp [including any prediction of QM in many universes] is allowed within my model but is not the only descriptor of universe evolution. Many evolving universes may contain no such computational component. Hal Ruhl -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 3:52 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: The limit of all computations On 5/23/2012 11:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 May 2012, at 19:08, meekerdb wrote: On 5/23/2012 8:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hmm... I agree with all your points in this post, except this one. The comp model (theory) has much more predictive power than physics, given that it predicts the whole of physics, It's easy to predict the whole of physics; just predict that everything happens. But that's not predictive power. I will take it that you are forgetting the whole argument. When I say that it predicts the whole physics, I mean it literally. And not everything happens only something like what is described by the physical theories, except that physicists derive them from direct observation, and comp derives them by the logic of universal machine observable. Physics, with comp, and arguably already with QM, is not at all everything happens, but more everything interfere leading to non trivial symmetries and symmetries breaking, etc. Bruno I don't see that comp has predicted anything except uncertainty. Can comp explain the reason QM is based on complex Hilbert space instead or real, or quaternion, or octonion? Can it explain where the mass gap comes from? Can it predict the dimensionality of spacetime? Can it tell whether spacetime is discrete at some level? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The limit of all computations
On 5/23/2012 1:20 PM, Hal Ruhl wrote: Hi Brent: What you appear to be asking for are predictions of the physics of a particular universe. It's the other extreme from 'predicting' everything happens. Since we only have the one physical universe against which to test the prediction, it's the only kind of prediction that means anything. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
RE: The limit of all computations
Hi Brent: I ask if it is reasonable to propose that a theory of everything must be able to list ALL the aspects of the local physics for each one of a complete catalog of universes? Suppose ours is just number 9,876,869,345 in the catalog. Would we ever complete such a project within the observers present lifetime of our universe? My current belief is that Comp is a broad brush description of a subset of universes within my own model. If Bruno thinks his approach is more precise than that I do not have a problem with that. My model appears to answer my questions about the basis of dynamics within the everything and a response as to what observers observe. Perhaps this sort of level is all we can expect, but it is, I believe, necessary to police the results so that most individuals can eventually sign on some day. For example we sure need in my opinion a substantially increased level of comprehension of economics which is actually a result of any local physics. I can't accomplish this re most of Bruno's work since I am definitely not adequate in the relevant logic disciplines. Hal Ruhl From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 4:41 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: The limit of all computations On 5/23/2012 1:20 PM, Hal Ruhl wrote: Hi Brent: What you appear to be asking for are predictions of the physics of a particular universe. It's the other extreme from 'predicting' everything happens. Since we only have the one physical universe against which to test the prediction, it's the only kind of prediction that means anything. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The limit of all computations
On 5/23/2012 4:42 PM, Hal Ruhl wrote: Hi Brent: I ask if it is reasonable to propose that a theory of everything must be able to list ALL the aspects of the local physics for each one of a complete catalog of universes? But I wasn't asking for ALL the aspects, just a few very general ones which are questions in current research, meaning there's a chance we might be able to check the predictions. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
RE: The limit of all computations
Hi Brent: I shall try to respond tomorrow. Hal Ruhl From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 8:41 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: The limit of all computations On 5/23/2012 4:42 PM, Hal Ruhl wrote: Hi Brent: I ask if it is reasonable to propose that a theory of everything must be able to list ALL the aspects of the local physics for each one of a complete catalog of universes? But I wasn't asking for ALL the aspects, just a few very general ones which are questions in current research, meaning there's a chance we might be able to check the predictions. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Free will in MWI
On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 5:28 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: There is obviously at least a small probability that you will decide to sleep under a bush tonight. Only because of how we have defined probability and our assumptions about what it possible. There is nothing to say those definitions and assumptions relate to something real. If it is absolutely certain that you won't sleep under a bush tonight then it is impossible that you will do so and the probability is zero. My understanding is that you don't approve of this sort of certain as you believe it leaves no room for free will or even consciousness. You would have to admit that under your concept of free will, otherwise in a deterministic single universe you would be compelled to sleep in your bed, which I don't have a problem with but you do. In a deterministic multiverse, you will definitely sleep in your bed in most universes (loosely most if they are infinite in number) and definitely sleep under a bush in a few. You can't be sure in which type of universe you will end up in so the future is indeterminate. I understand the theory, and it would be interesting if we were in a theoretical universe, but ultimately it's absurd. It's Horton Hears A Who on crack. There would be a quintillion universes for every dust mite's turd's journey through the bed sheets. All it accomplishes is to find a way of arguing a way that everything in the universe is real except our own will is real. Somehow our ordinary experience is a magical exception because the idea of our decision making power makes us uncomfortable to explain. So are you saying that you don't believe in the multiverse or are you saying that the multiverse, if it were to exist, would leave no room for free will? No I understand the idea completely, I just think it's an obvious plug for the inconsistencies of QM. Like Dark matter dark energy, superposition, emergence, and entanglement. It's all phlogiston, libido, elan vital, animal magnetism, etc. It's quite nice in theory, but it sodomizes one side of Occam's Razor with the other. It's counter intuitive because it's an absurd way of explaining the universe in terms of nearly infinite nearly nonsensical universes. Every grain of sand on every planet in the cosmos having it's own set of universes customized to fit every pebble collision and sea tousled movement? Seriously? With sense as a primitive you don't need any of that. The universe is one thing with different views of itself. Each view doesn't need to be a creator of literal separate universes. Whether it's true or not is a separate question but it does allow for your future to be truly indeterminate in a deterministic multiverse. The teleportation thought experiments we often talk about here model this in a simpler way. But it does it by neutralizing any significance of one outcome over another. Why do we care about determining anything if we have no power to change it? It doesn't neutralise significance. In one universe you wake up in your bed and you tell yourself that you made a good decision, your bed is warm and comfortable and it would have been stupid to sleep under a bush. In another universe you wake up under a bush and you tell yourself that you made a good decision, even though you were cold and uncomfortable, because you have achieved your purpose of empathising better with homeless people. In each case you made your own decision, freely, with good reason and according to the laws of physics. Before you made the decision you were not completely sure which way you would go. Right now, you can say you're pretty sure you will wake up in your bed tomorrow and I would bet that that is what will happen, but you could change your mind. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Einstein and Formulas.
Einstein and Formulas. =. Einstein said, that the scientist does not think with formulas. But, dear Einstein, please see how nice to think with the help of these formulas: you can imagine the whole picture of Existence’s creation. =. § 1. Vacuum: T= 0K, E= ∞ , p = 0, t =∞ . § 2. Particles: C/D= pi=3,14, R/N=k, E/M=c^2, h=0, c=0, i^2=-1. § 3. Photon: h=E/t, h=kb, h=1, c=1. § 4. Electron: h*=h/2pi, c1, E=h*f , e^2=ach* . § 5. Gravity, Star formation: h*f = kTlogW : He II -- He I -- H -- . . . § 6. Proton: (p). § 7. The evolution of interaction between Photon / Electron and Proton: a) electromagnetic, b) nuclear, c) biological. § 8. The Physical Laws: a) Law of Conservation and Transformation Energy/ Mass, b) Pauli Exclusion Law, c) Heisenberg Uncertainty Law. § 9. Brain: Dualism of Consciousness. § 10. Test and Practice: Parapsychology. Meditation. ===. Best wishes. Israel Sadovnik Socratus . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
