Re: Consciousness/Intelligence (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

[Bruno Marchal]

On 23 Feb 2017, at 21:48, Hans Moravec wrote:




On 170223, at 3:23 PM, Brent Meeker  wrote:

John McCarthy warned many years ago that we should be careful not  
to create robots that had general intelligence, lest we  
inadvertently create conscious beings to whom we would have  
ethical obligations.


Bruno: And he warn us that we could become the pet of the machine.


No.  He warned that we could become slave owners.


The suggestion that we’d become pets was from Marvin Minsky.



You are right. My mistake.




I think he saw it as a good thing.




Yes, I think that he said something like we should be happy if they  
keep us as pets.


Bruno






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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Consciousness/Intelligence (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

[Brent Meeker]

On 2/23/2017 1:43 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:


I have long thought that I perceive, however wrongly, the birth of new 
species by combining with La Machine. For one, it beats the hell out 
of early death, that all flesh is now heir to. Secondly, it would give 
us all super powers. Think, Iron Man suit, Batman power suit, Mighty 
Morphin Power Rangers, etc, ad nauseum. For the machines, unless they 
wanted to do it non-bio, or bio, by cloning the human amygdala, we fit 
usefully, into their plans by us determining what is crap and what is 
cuddly. I am guessing some kind of suit, headcap, implanted box into 
our system, would benefit both. Nanotech, or implanted into our rear 
sinus cavity. No! in the back of the head! But, hey, whatever floats 
your boats.


It'd be like the Reese's commercials. "You got your peanut butter in 
my chocolate. Well, you got your chocolate in my peanut butter!" Or 
like the Doublemints commercials "Two, two, two mints in one!" Or like 
the absorption of the mitochondria, by a bacteria, it led to the 
development of multicellular life, which is nicely, synergistic, if 
one thinks about it.


More likely it will be wealthy humans who will have their children 
implanted with a chip that gives them direct mental access to the web 
and other such resources.  So we'll become the Borg.


Brent
Following a Doublemint gum commercial, Arthur Godfrey famously said, 
"Let's face it folks.  If we're going to double our pleasure it's not 
going to be with chewing gum."


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Re: Consciousness/Intelligence (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

I have long thought that I perceive, however wrongly, the birth of new species 
by combining with La Machine. For one, it beats the hell out of early death, 
that all flesh is now heir to. Secondly, it would give us all super powers. 
Think, Iron Man suit, Batman power suit, Mighty Morphin Power Rangers, etc, ad 
nauseum. For the machines, unless they wanted to do it non-bio, or bio, by 
cloning the human amygdala, we fit usefully, into their plans by us determining 
what is crap and what is cuddly. I am guessing some kind of suit, headcap, 
implanted box into our system, would benefit both. Nanotech, or implanted into 
our rear sinus cavity. No! in the back of the head! But, hey, whatever floats 
your boats. 


It'd be like the Reese's commercials. "You got your peanut butter in my 
chocolate. Well, you got your chocolate in my peanut butter!" Or like the 
Doublemints commercials "Two, two, two mints in one!" Or like the absorption of 
the mitochondria, by a bacteria, it led to the development of multicellular 
life, which is nicely, synergistic, if one thinks about it. 


-Original Message-
From: Brent Meeker <meeke...@verizon.net>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 23, 2017 4:01 pm
Subject: Re: Consciousness/Intelligence (was Re: From Atheism to Islam





On 2/23/2017 12:48 PM, Hans Moravec  wrote:



  

  
On 170223, at 3:23 PM, Brent Meeker <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
  
  

  

John McCarthy warned  many years ago that we should be careful 
not to create  robots that had general intelligence, lest we
  inadvertently create conscious beings to whom we would
  have ethical obligations.


Bruno: And he warn us that we could become the pet of   
 the machine.
  
  
  No. He warned that we could become slave owners.

  

  
  
  
The suggestion that we’d become pets was from MarvinMinsky.
  
I think he saw it as a good thing.
  


Yeah, he said that between lesser and greater intelligence he knewwhich 
side he'd take.

Brent
  
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Re: Consciousness/Intelligence (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

[Brent Meeker]

On 2/23/2017 12:48 PM, Hans Moravec wrote:


On 170223, at 3:23 PM, Brent Meeker > wrote:


John McCarthy warned many years ago that we should be careful not 
to create robots that had general intelligence, lest we 
inadvertently create conscious beings to whom we would have ethical 
obligations.


Bruno: And he warn us that we could become the pet of the machine.


No.  He warned that we could become slave owners.


The suggestion that we’d become pets was from Marvin Minsky.
I think he saw it as a good thing.


Yeah, he said that between lesser and greater intelligence he knew which 
side he'd take.


Brent

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Re: Consciousness/Intelligence (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

[Hans Moravec]

> On 170223, at 3:23 PM, Brent Meeker  wrote:
> 
>>> John McCarthy warned many years ago that we should be careful not to create 
>>> robots that had general intelligence, lest we inadvertently create 
>>> conscious beings to whom we would have ethical obligations.
>> 
>> Bruno: And he warn us that we could become the pet of the machine.
> 
> No.  He warned that we could become slave owners.

The suggestion that we’d become pets was from Marvin Minsky.
I think he saw it as a good thing.


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Re: Consciousness/Intelligence (was Re: From Atheism to Islam

[Brent Meeker]

On 2/23/2017 12:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 20 Feb 2017, at 20:52, Brent Meeker wrote:




On 2/20/2017 7:33 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:
On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 1:19 AM, John Clark  
wrote:

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 Telmo Menezes  wrote:




Dark Matter and Dark Energy remain complete mysteries.



As far as I can tell, what we have is a falsification of current
theories. They appear to be good enough approximations for many
things, but then they fail at predicting the expansion rate of the
universe right? Maybe it's dark matter, maybe it's something else,


They are 2 separate mysteries. Dark Matter is a mysterious 
something that
makes up 28% of the universe and holds galaxies and clusters of 
galaxies
together. Dark Energy is a even more mysterious something that 
makes up 69%
of everything and causes the expansion of the entire universe to 
accelerate.
And about 4% of the universe is made of the sort of normal matter 
and energy

that until about 20 years ago was the only type we thought existed.

There is a straightforward extension of General Relativity and Quantum
Mechanics that explains Dark Energy, however it gives a figure that is
10^120 too large, it's been called the worse mismatch between 
theory and
observation in the entire history of science. I think it's fair to 
say we
really don't have a clue about Dark Energy, and Dark Matter is 
almost as

confusing.


If science failed so far at explaining something, then it doesn't

matter?


Science has an explanation for consciousness that works beautifully,
consciousness is the way information feels when it is being processed
intelligently.

I know that your position is that information processing is
nonsensical without matter. Many times you invited Bruno to compete
with Intel, etc. So what you are saying is that "consciousness is the
way matter feels when it participates in an intelligent computation".
This "explanation" begs the question already.

Then there's the issue of defining "processed intelligently". What
does that even mean? Where do you draw the line between intelligent
and non-intelligent processing? Let me guess: intelligent processing
is the kind that generates consciousness.


No, intelligent processing it that which leads to useful activity 
toward a goal.  That's why consciousness has to be consciousness OF a 
world in which action is possible.  It only exists in a context.


I am OK, with "model" in place of "world". But those are close.






For me, the interesting question is whether there can be intelligence 
without consciousness,


When we do something intelligent (a priori) a billion times, we can do 
it without consciousness (like walking), but is it still intelligent?

Here, I would say that it depends of what we mean by "intelligent".



or more accurately can there be intelligence which is conscious in a 
different way.


different from what?


Different from the way I am conscious: A stream of narrative and images 
which mixes memories, feelings, and perceptions into a sort of coherent 
story.  I think this story is a way compressing what goes into memory so 
that it can be used for learning - at least if I were designing a robot 
and I used this technique for storing information to later be used in 
learning (i.e. reducing the information to a coherent stream) I would 
identify that part of the design as the "consciousness module".  But I 
can imagine designing the robot differently.  For example, if memory 
were very cheap and fast of access I might not try to filter experience 
into small stream of information before storing it - I might just put it 
all in and evaulate for learning later.  Or I can imagine designing the 
robot so that more than one coherent stream were produced based on 
different value weights and there were several learning modules based on 
different techniques and action decisions involved voting.







 We can see from Big Blue, Watson, and deep neural nets that there 
can be intelligence based different kinds of information processing.  
I suspect this means there would be different kinds of consciousness 
associated with them - but how could we know and what would it mean?  
John McCarthy warned many years ago that we should be careful not to 
create robots that had general intelligence, lest we inadvertently 
create conscious beings to whom we would have ethical obligations.


And he warn us that we could become the pet of the machine.


No.  He warned that we could become slave owners.

Brent

In fact if we continue to treat "corporation" as person, we will 
ultimately become the slaves of the machine, and most plausibly, a 
slave that the machine will stop to afford the price. We might 
disappear if this happens before we digitalize ourself completely. We 
are on a bad slope with respect to this, alas.


Bruno


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