Re: lwn article on the death of Fedora Legacy
On Tuesday 24 October 2006 10:19, Mike McCarty wrote: Gene Heskett wrote: [snip] Maybe the question we should be asking is: Can we do this? We don't have the number of people that Debian Security has on supporting old releases.. and because we have fallen so far behind with everything.. can we dig ourselves out.. or do we need to completely reboot the whole thing (new people, new goals, new name) with the new people really knowing that A) we arent going to get much help from 3rd party vendors B) we arent going to get much help from the community I'd comment that for this fedora user at least, the security etc stuffs should be extended at least to the point where we each of us, has a system, old though it may be in FC years, that works and does everything WE want it to do. Hi, Gene. I haven't been around here for a while. Nice to see something from you. That's my situation, too. But I don't think that the FC project is really set up for that. I use FC2, and when I finally bite the bullet and feel it imperative to upgrade it won't be to FCx. That isn't what FC is about, it seems. For the reason you give, it doesn't really suit my needs. Throwing us to the wolves doesn't make me want to format and update at anywhere near the release cycle for FC. My email archive alone goes back into 1998 here. Yes, there are backups, and I do them rather religiously Umm, FC didn't exist in 1998. Of course not, but RH5 did. Anyway, FC is really for tinkerers, not for people who want a distro that just works. I installed it because I was asked to do so by a company which hired me for a contract. For my *own* needs, Debian would have been better. Much slower release cycle. Fewer defects. But I'm not about to do this every 6 months as planned by the FC people, I Well, that's what FC *is*. I have several friends who have started using Linux over the last few years, and we are all going through culture shock at what is called QA in the Linux World. FC, even in Linux terms, is a use at your own risk kind of distro. Not that care isn't taken, but stuff is gonna break when a new release comes out. So we've noticed, and its the really blatant breakage that irks us the most, like FC4's x crashing on probably half the boxes at the initial reboot. With no clues of course because the only way to get to the logs was to reboot from the cd in single mode. And not being fam with the mount tree, the logs are hard to find. But, that FC4 fiaso that had many of us threatening to burn someone at the stake did help in that it brought the attention of TPTB that additional checking and bodies needed to be assigned to the FC releases, and that additional effort can certainly be seen in the overall quality of the FC5 release. Unforch, now I'm reading between the lines and coming to the conclusion that fedora is again being body starved. We'll see in a couple of days I guess. If you don't want installing the OS to be a hobby, perhaps you should consider a different distro. I know I am. Yup, I have one kubuntu box now running emc2-head, and there may be a kubuntu install on this box in another few weeks. Although, after the initial fixups of FC5 on my lappy, its all working pretty well, so the coin with kubuntu 6.10 on one side, and FC6 on the other, is still up in the air. Kubuntu's main problem is the cups install is about half, like one testical didn't come down, so there's a lot of wheels to reinvent there before cups does its thing with networked printers. I made it work by copying stuff off other working systems, thank $favorite-deity for samba someone telling me howto make a real root account on a kubuntu box... Mike -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Yahoo.com and AOL/TW attorneys please note, additions to the above message by Gene Heskett are: Copyright 2006 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved. -- fedora-legacy-list mailing list fedora-legacy-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-legacy-list
Re: lwn article on the death of Fedora Legacy
On Tuesday 24 October 2006 10:23, Mike McCarty wrote: Matthew Miller wrote: [snip] Using the Chasm marketing model [*], without Legacy, Fedora is only a viable solution for Early Adopters and of dubious value to the second Pragmatist group. However, Fedora has been enough of a success that many Pragmatists are indeed using Fedora. I'm not familiar with that, but I'll look into it. I agree with your statement. I couldn't say it any better either. This results in large numbers of FC2, FC3, FC4 machines in production beyond their supported lifetime. Pragmatists, by their nature, don't wanna be upgrading all the time. Without Legacy, they're best served by CentOS and kin. That's fine, but it's a loss for Fedora, as they're then less likely to feed back into Extras, etc. And it's also a problem because it results in large numbers of potentially vulnerable machines in the wild. You have struck a very large nail upon the head with perfect orthogonality. I'm using FC2 here. Ditto, albeit with lots of stuff installed from tarballs because so much of FC2 was considerably more broken. IMO to release that without any kde testing should have been a no-no. As it was, just waving the mouse over a printing function in a kde menu brought the box down. Thats NOT good PR for fedora. Fedora people repeatedly state that the distribution is great for users beyond the tech-enthusiast Earlier Adopters. But without Legacy, it's really not true. Indeed. This is a statement which I have made on several occasions, only to be hooted down. Well, in my case I picked a distro that spoke english, then fixed what needed to be fixed. That wasn't as easy as it should have been when one can't stand the gnome's constant nagging about being root, dammit its my machine, why the heck should I put another million miles on my mouse getting rid of nag windows cause I'm root! That meant that cups, gimp, imagemajik, kino, qt and kde all got installed outside the rpm box from tarballs that FC2 would never backport even though what they had was broken. Now kino has died due to kernel changes (currently running 2.6.19-rc3), so the next vcd I make will be on my lappies teeny little 60GB partition for linux. Or on this box after I put FC6||kubuntu on it. Would the world be worse off if fedora died? Obviously yes, even for the pragmatists. We all bet on our favorite horse you know. Mike -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Yahoo.com and AOL/TW attorneys please note, additions to the above message by Gene Heskett are: Copyright 2006 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved. -- fedora-legacy-list mailing list fedora-legacy-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-legacy-list
Re: Some supporting ideas regarding fedora legacy project when FC6 is out today
On Tuesday 24 October 2006 14:52, Robinson Tiemuqinke wrote: But FC5 and FC6 are released too closely -- only three months apart. while FC4 had released over one year before FC5 appeared. Where the heck are you getting your figures? FC5 was released 3/20/2006, FC4 was released 6/13/2005, that's 9~ months. FC6 was released today, 10/24, about 7 months since FC5 was released. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) pgpZjNDJ5TZMg.pgp Description: PGP signature -- fedora-legacy-list mailing list fedora-legacy-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-legacy-list
Re: Some supporting ideas regarding fedora legacy project when FC6 is out today
On 10/24/06, Robinson Tiemuqinke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But FC5 and FC6 are released too closely -- only three months apart. while FC4 had released over one year before FC5 appeared. Huh? There has been at least 6 months between each FC release. FC1 release: Nov 5 2003 FC2 release: May 18 2004 FC3 release: Nov 8 2004 FC4 release: Jun 13 2005 FC5 release: Mar 20 2006 FC6 release: Oct 24 2006 -Dave -- fedora-legacy-list mailing list fedora-legacy-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-legacy-list
Re: Sorry for confusion -- Re: Some supporting ideas regarding fedora legacy project when FC6 is out today
Robinson Tiemuqinke wrote: Currently FC just scares aways small business users to Debian/Gentoo because the former have so short a lifespan. Without real business users play in these FC test-beds RHEL will die away shortly. Why do you think they will move to Debian or Gentoo? And why Debian or Gentoo? I really don't see the logic. If they like the Red Hat-way of running Linux they'll almost certainly prefer CentOS or RHEL if they like Fedora but want a longer life cycle. Nils Breunese. PGP.sig Description: Dit deel van het bericht is digitaal ondertekend -- fedora-legacy-list mailing list fedora-legacy-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-legacy-list
Re: Some supporting ideas regarding fedora legacy project when FC6 is out today
Quoting Robinson Tiemuqinke [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Based on the above fact, one idea will flow out naturally: based on the limited resourses of fedora legacy groups, and facing losing users because limited legacy support is flatted to each FC legacy release. Is it possible to support only some subset of releases? We can take the following strategy: Sure. We can just support one release if we want. Kind of makes the project rather pointless though if we keep changing the rules constantly. The _ONLY_ way there is a justification for Fedora Legacy is if it has, and maintains, a schedule so that people can depend on it. Otherwise, there really is no point to it. 1, for each odd-numbered release, take it as a alpha version release, and don't support it with limited fedora legacy resources. So FC5, FC7, FC9 will not go into fedora legacy. and they will be in official(redhat) support status in no more than half year, or even a quarter. And people who unkowning install one of those and then find out about FL are just out of luck? 2, for each even-numbered release, take it as a post-beta version release. these version will stay in official support for more than one year like FC4, then after its ending of official support, the release will go to fedora legacy for another one and half years or even longer based on resources. This implies that Fedora Core will support the even numbered releases for more than a year which is not something they will guarantee. So this won't work. This way we can bring FC releases back into the free RH years since RH6.0 to RH9, helpful for FC, RH and users. I don't understand what you are trying to say here. You want to reduce support, then you compare that to the fantastic support of the old RHL days? Doesn't make any sense to me. If FL is to have any trust from the users and Fedora community, it _must_ keep a support schedule, and not change it willy nilly. (Actually, it is okay to extend support for something, or even reduce support for future unreleased versions, but not to reduce or eliminate support that was already promised for a release that is already in use). -- Eric Rostetter The Department of Physics The University of Texas at Austin Go Longhorns! -- fedora-legacy-list mailing list fedora-legacy-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-legacy-list
Re: lwn article on the death of Fedora Legacy
On 10/24/06, Mike McCarty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stephen John Smoogen wrote: On 10/20/06, Matthew Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Oct 20, 2006 at 09:36:15AM -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: The problem is that we are just beat. Jesse has a kid, a release cycle, a new knee, and a lot of other stuff on his real job. The other people who have been doing stuff have also had 'stuff happen', and temporary schedule changes that have become permanent. Yes. In order to survive the project needs some real support from Red Hat. (Or some other large company who wants to do Red Hat a favor, but that seems even less likely.) Using the Chasm marketing model [*], without Legacy, Fedora is only a viable solution for Early Adopters and of dubious value to the second Pragmatist group. However, Fedora has been enough of a success that many Pragmatists are indeed using Fedora. I would argue that the pragmatists had been using it out of a trust model. They had used Red Hat Linux when it has crossed the chasm, and I don't believe that Linux in general has crossed the chasm yet. I think it's *all* still in the early adopters stage. But within the Linux community (oxymoron) FC is the early adopters of the early adopters. That would put you in the conservative column then. So far at the 3 10,000+ person companies I have worked at for the last 5 years, we have replaced 90% of our Solaris, AIX, mainframes etc with Linux. From what I have been helping with at other sites this has been the trend in the last 4 years. One site a friend works at just bought 5000 sun boxes. Although they each have a Solaris license, none of them will be using Solaris.. its just that the AMD hardware was considered better to run the clusters on. [snip] 2) I use Fedora to alpha/beta test for the next/current Red Hat Enterprise. How come when I state that FC is beta test, I get dog-piled, but you don't? Because I said I used Fedora as a beta test.. not that Fedora is a beta test. The two are not equal statements. Red Hat may not use it as such, but I as a consumer do. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. The Merchant of Venice -- fedora-legacy-list mailing list fedora-legacy-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-legacy-list
Re: lwn article on the death of Fedora Legacy
On Tuesday 24 October 2006 18:21, Mike McCarty wrote: These are interesting stats, and indicate that Linux may now be crossing the gap. I belive most offices are still firmly MS product houses, and a move to Linux would not even be considered. I know that every time I see a request for a resume, the format requested is MS Word. Use on the desktop should not be tied to use in the server room. You'll find a MUCH higher usage of linux in the server room. However since the majority of the desktops are Windows, MS Word gets used a lot. A really open cross platform format should be used, such as PDF, but that's not a here nor there question. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) pgproA3J5P4VO.pgp Description: PGP signature -- fedora-legacy-list mailing list fedora-legacy-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-legacy-list
Re: Migrating from RH9 Legacy to CentOS 3
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:33:18 -0400, Eric Rostetter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting David Eisner [EMAIL PROTECTED]: With the end of Legacy support for RH9, I'd like to migrate my Fedora Legacified RH9 box to Centos 3. Sounds reasonable. I've used these directions in the past to successfully migrate from non-legacy RH9 to Centos 3.1 using yum: http://www.owlriver.com/tips/centos-31-ex-rhl-9/ Any thoughts on whether this should also work with the .legacy packages? Should work fine. Sometimes you will find a dependency issue to work around. Often that means removing the old package. Sometimes it might mean changing yum's exactarch=1 to exactarch=0 to get around a dependency issue caused by architecture changes (from i386 to noarch or vise-versa, or from 32 bit to 64 bit, etc). Generally it runs smoothly, but occassionally some thought must be put into resolving some dependency issue... One thing I don't see mentioned much. First, do a yum update or yum upgrade on the RHL 9 repo. Then do a yum clean to free up disk space. Then do your yum upgrade to Centos. Otherwise, you will have your old RHL yum cache taking up a lot of space... Thanks in advance. -David I'm still using RedHat 9 and up2date. What would I have to do to upgrade to a fedora version? -- Ralph E. Kenyon, Jr. http://www.xenodochy.org/ralph.html 191 White Oaks Road Williamstown, MA 01267-2259 Phone: 413-458-3597 Home pages: http://www.xenodochy.org http://www.ballroomdances.org --- FIGHT SPAM http://www.xenodochy.org/diogenes/antispam.html (If you are thinking about collecting my email address, read the above page first!) -- Plain text markup: *bold*, /italic/, _underline_, LOUD Keep our semantic environments and cyberspace clean. Always report errors discovered while surfing the web. -- My favorite saying (from general semantics): It's not that seeing is believing, believing is seeing, and we're much better at believing than we are at seeing. http://www.xenodochy.org/ex/quotes/santayana.html -- fedora-legacy-list mailing list fedora-legacy-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-legacy-list
