Speaking of language support...
When I install fedora, the final group of packages in the installation customization is language support. I never select any additional languages in there. Despite that, as we see in another thread, firefox has a gazillion languages anyway, my font selection menus are cluttered with thousands of fonts supporting glyphs I can't recognize, my /usr/share/locale/ directory is filled with millions of entries, etc. Which leads to the question: What the heck does the language support group in anaconda actually install? For a system with no additional languages installed on it, I sure seem to have an awful lot of different language related stuff on my system. (And fonts are the most irritating - I wish apps came with better font selection interfaces that could filter out things for languages I'm not looking for so I could maybe see the thing I am looking for in the smaller haystack left over :-). -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Speaking of language support...
Tom Horsley wrote: Despite that, as we see in another thread, firefox has a gazillion languages anyway, my font selection menus are cluttered with thousands of fonts supporting glyphs I can't recognize, my /usr/share/locale/ directory is filled with millions of entries, etc. Which leads to the question: What the heck does the language support group in anaconda actually install? For a system with no additional languages installed on it, I sure seem to have an awful lot of different I think it will install the user interface in that selected language. I for example like very much my interface to be in English, but be able to see correctly Japanese, Chinese and Finnish web pages. For that I need the fonts. I don't need the user interface pack. What's wrong with you people? Is it so dangerous to be influenced with foreing language on operating system which started on Finland where people speak language which has maybe 6million people speaking it worldwide? I understand need to cut down packages when installing to small space (Like really limited netboot) But most of the time it really doesn't matter and makes system more usables for us who need to be able to see world outside of english speaking world. -vpk -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Speaking of language support...
Tom Horsley wrote: On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 16:22:42 +0300 Veli-Pekka Kestilä wrote: What's wrong with you people? I don't think it is dangerous, I just wonder what the heck the anaconda installer is asking about languages for when it seems to install a gazillion language related things anyway. It is setting the default language. The user has the option of changing it for his/her login. I am not sure if it changes the language the logs are in - I have never checked. Mikkel -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Speaking of language support...
Tom Horsley wrote: On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 16:22:42 +0300 Veli-Pekka Kestilä wrote: What's wrong with you people? I don't think it is dangerous, I just wonder what the heck the anaconda installer is asking about languages for when it seems to install a gazillion language related things anyway. It seems kind of like not checking the software development group, but then finding eclipse, g++, fortran, and gnat on my system :-). Well, you do get for example python without asking it, so it kind of happens for programmin tools too, maybe there is some more examples of getting dev stuff without asking. I remember that atleast perl came by default in RH(x) distributions before. :-) And I don't think those are really slimmed down versions for just running stuff as people have better things to do than making multiple packages for same program. I think it's better for software and linux especially if language support get's better. And for that you sometimes need to have things like fonts which have more letters than just 7-bit ASCII . It's actually really annoying that still I end up finding websites, and software which doesn't work well with anything that is more diverse than 7-bit ASCII, for example I have many times had to try to get around stupid name checkers which don't allow '-' and 'ä' in peoples or places names and so on. So it's really annoying when someone wants less language compability by default. -vpk -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Speaking of language support...
On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 18:04 +0300, Veli-Pekka Kestilä wrote: It's actually really annoying that still I end up finding websites, and software which doesn't work well with anything that is more diverse than 7-bit ASCII, for example I have many times had to try to get around stupid name checkers which don't allow '-' and 'ä' in peoples or places names and so on. So it's really annoying when someone wants less language compability by default. Amen to that, but I have problems because of my surname (O'Callaghan) and it's not even caused by language issues. Some web forms (mostly Microsoft-based it seems) interpret the ' as a string terminator and break horribly. It's an anti-Irish consiracy :-) poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Speaking of language support...
Veli-Pekka Kestilä wrote: What's wrong with you people? Is it so dangerous to be influenced with foreing language on operating system which started on Finland where people speak language which has maybe 6million people speaking it worldwide? I speak three languages and I find it irritating to have to install a gazillion other languages that I don't use, and especially irritating to have to install by default all of those fonts not used by my languages. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Speaking of language support...
On 03/08/09 17:48, Petrus de Calguarium wrote: Veli-Pekka Kestilä wrote: What's wrong with you people? Is it so dangerous to be influenced with foreing language on operating system which started on Finland where people speak language which has maybe 6million people speaking it worldwide? I speak three languages and I find it irritating to have to install a gazillion other languages that I don't use, and especially irritating to have to install by default all of those fonts not used by my languages. yumex will help remove language fonts -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Speaking of language support...
В Пнд, 03/08/2009 в 09:03 -0400, Tom Horsley пишет: When I install fedora, the final group of packages in the installation customization is language support. I never select any additional languages in there. Despite that, as we see in another thread, firefox has a gazillion languages anyway, my font selection menus are cluttered with thousands of fonts supporting glyphs I can't recognize, my /usr/share/locale/ directory is filled with millions of entries, etc. Which leads to the question: What the heck does the language support group in anaconda actually install? For a system with no additional languages installed on it, I sure seem to have an awful lot of different language related stuff on my system. (And fonts are the most irritating - I wish apps came with better font selection interfaces that could filter out things for languages I'm not looking for so I could maybe see the thing I am looking for in the smaller haystack left over :-). I like all the languages support in Fedora because I can see a website in whatever language without having to google forums or to read manuals and find suitable packages before that. :) -- Misha Shnurapet °v° I ♥ Linux /(_)\ Download the free operating system here: ^ ^ http://fedoraproject.org signature.asc Description: Эта часть сообщения подписана цифровой подписью -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Speaking of language support...
Veli-Pekka Kestilä wrote: I for example like very much my interface to be in English, but be able to see correctly Japanese, Chinese and Finnish web pages. For that I need the fonts. You do raise an important point here: yes, foreign language pages should be displayed correctly, and not just with those empty boxes. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Speaking of language support...
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 09:18:57 -0500 From: Mikkel L. Ellertson mik...@infinity-ltd.com Subject: Re: Speaking of language support... To: Community assistance, encouragement, and advice for using Fedora. fedora-list@redhat.com Message-ID: 4a76f1d1.60...@infinity-ltd.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 It is setting the default language. The user has the option of changing it for his/her login. I am not sure if it changes the language the logs are in - I have never checked. Mikkel -- No, it won't. I'm running finnish interface. CUPS logs are in pure english. But many other things in terminal or in boot stage are in finnsh. -- Hiisi. Registered Linux User #487982. Be counted at: http://counter.li.org/ -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Speaking of language support...
On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 01:53:05 +0900 Misha Shnurapet wrote: I like all the languages support in Fedora because I can see a website in whatever language without having to google forums or to read manuals and find suitable packages before that. :) Odd, I couldn't care less if I can see the correct rendering of something I can't understand anyway :-). -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Speaking of language support...
Hiisi wrote: No, it won't. I'm running finnish interface. CUPS logs are in pure english. But many other things in terminal or in boot stage are in finnsh. Maybe you should file a request for enhancement to get log messages messages in the system language instead of English. It is something that needs to be done, but if nobody asks for it, it will not get done... There is also a need for people to translate messages into other languages. Mikkel -- Registered Linux User #16148 (http://counter.li.org/) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Speaking of language support...
Maybe you should file a request for enhancement to get log messages messages in the system language instead of English. It is something that needs to be done, but if nobody asks for it, it will not get done... There is also a need for people to translate messages into other languages. Mikkel -- Registered Linux User #16148 (http://counter.li.org/) No. I'm not complaining. On the contrary, I'm happy with log files in english. Otherwise I would have to translate them before seeking for help on this list ;-) -- Hiisi. Registered Linux User #487982. Be counted at: http://counter.li.org/ -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Speaking of language support...
On Monday 03 August 2009 18:49:06 Tom Horsley wrote: On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 01:53:05 +0900 Misha Shnurapet wrote: I like all the languages support in Fedora because I can see a website in whatever language without having to google forums or to read manuals and find suitable packages before that. :) Odd, I couldn't care less if I can see the correct rendering of something I can't understand anyway :-). But what if you *do* understand the language, but are unable to read it because it's not rendered well by default? I would call that poor language support, and ask for it to be corrected in the next version of Fedora by inclusion of appropriate fonts and language support packages. I also believe the majority of users find it useful, at least those who have spent enough time in school to learn more than one language. So language support should be opt-out rather than opt-in. Be happy that at least foreign languages are not patent encumbered... ;-) Best, :-) Marko -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Speaking of language support...
Tom Horsley wrote: On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 01:53:05 +0900 Misha Shnurapet wrote: I like all the languages support in Fedora because I can see a website in whatever language without having to google forums or to read manuals and find suitable packages before that. :) Odd, I couldn't care less if I can see the correct rendering of something I can't understand anyway :-). That is exactly why something like Google Translate is valuable. I can't begin to count the number of times I've used it to translate recipes. Ummm, Ummm, good :-) -- You possess a mind not merely twisted, but actually sprained. mei-mei.gres...@greshko.com http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=cCSz_koUhSg signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Speaking of language support...
On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 13:08 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote: Hiisi wrote: No, it won't. I'm running finnish interface. CUPS logs are in pure english. But many other things in terminal or in boot stage are in finnsh. Maybe you should file a request for enhancement to get log messages messages in the system language instead of English. It is something that needs to be done, but if nobody asks for it, it will not get done... There is also a need for people to translate messages into other languages. I work almost entirely in a Spanish-speaking environment, but I've actually found that most computer professionals are much happier with system messages and logs in English and many prefer even menus to be in English. Maybe that varies according to which part of the world we're talking about, but the fact that the English-language messages are standardized is a huge factor (e.g. you can look them up in Google). Another factor is the wildly variant translations one finds for the same terminology across different apps and translators. Having the option is probably good, but it's interesting that localizing these kinds of messages can actually impede comprehension. insert comparison with medieval Latin or diplomatic French here poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Speaking of language support...
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 13:08 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote: Hiisi wrote: No, it won't. I'm running finnish interface. CUPS logs are in pure english. But many other things in terminal or in boot stage are in finnsh. Maybe you should file a request for enhancement to get log messages messages in the system language instead of English. It is something that needs to be done, but if nobody asks for it, it will not get done... There is also a need for people to translate messages into other languages. I work almost entirely in a Spanish-speaking environment, but I've actually found that most computer professionals are much happier with system messages and logs in English and many prefer even menus to be in English. Maybe that varies according to which part of the world we're talking about, but the fact that the English-language messages are standardized is a huge factor (e.g. you can look them up in Google). Another factor is the wildly variant translations one finds for the same terminology across different apps and translators. Having the option is probably good, but it's interesting that localizing these kinds of messages can actually impede comprehension. insert comparison with medieval Latin or diplomatic French here poc I stand corrected. You have reminded me of some of the strange translations of tech manuals written in other languages into English. I especially like the earth wire. (Ground wire.) I have to admit being limited to English. I have forgotten the French and German I learned years ago... Mikkel -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Speaking of language support...
Around 12:10am on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 (UK time), Mikkel L. Ellertson scrawled: I stand corrected. You have reminded me of some of the strange translations of tech manuals written in other languages into English. I especially like the earth wire. (Ground wire.) What's wrong with earth wire? Steve -- Play Champions - my free football predictions game at: http://www.stevesearle.com/champs/about.html 00:12:58 up 18 days, 3:23, 1 user, load average: 0.23, 0.14, 0.07 pgpA8y91TuN7Z.pgp Description: PGP signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Speaking of language support...
On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 18:10 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote: I stand corrected. You have reminded me of some of the strange translations of tech manuals written in other languages into English. I especially like the earth wire. (Ground wire.) That's not a translation problem. It's a difference of usage between US and the UK English (like lift-elevator, tap-faucet, crisps-chips, and so on ad nauseam). Two countries divided by a common language. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Speaking of language support...
On 08/03/2009 08:32 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 18:04 +0300, Veli-Pekka Kestilä wrote: It's actually really annoying that still I end up finding websites, and software which doesn't work well with anything that is more diverse than 7-bit ASCII, for example I have many times had to try to get around stupid name checkers which don't allow '-' and 'ä' in peoples or places names and so on. So it's really annoying when someone wants less language compability by default. Amen to that, but I have problems because of my surname (O'Callaghan) and it's not even caused by language issues. Some web forms (mostly Microsoft-based it seems) interpret the ' as a string terminator and break horribly. It's an anti-Irish consiracy :-) poc Well, us 'mericans has enough trouble wid English. We don't need no foreign languages to confuse us more. John -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
