[Felvtalk] re chemotherapy?
my response is too long- so I split in two- didn't want Adrienne to have to wait on moderator approval. Sorry. 1st of 2 responses from me. Adrienne:I'm sorry about the diagnosis. I have been through this myself. This is a very personal decision you have to make. I can't tell you what to do, jut my experience. My beloved Monkee was diagnosed with lymphosarcoma in April 2007. He was also a Felv+ cat (I had had him tested 3 times). He lived 4 years with me as the picture of health until I found the lump on his leg in March. He was my only cat and in short, I worshipped him. I'd lived for 4 years in fear of felv raising it's ugly head and actually started to think he was maybe a mere carrier and it would never claim him. I was desperate to save him and fight the good fight. Chemo was recommended and we began it immediately. It was very very very expensive and very hard on him. He hated it. He knew when we turned into the vet specialists clinic parking lot, even tho he was in his carrier and couldn't see-- he knew the last turn- could sense it. The problem with the chemo for a felv+ cat is manyfold: it stresses them out- which any added stress for a felv+ cat, whether symptomatic or not, is bad; chemo works by not only killing the bad cells, but the good ones too-- which will take a felv+ cat down even further than one that is felv-; also, what the doctor doesn't always tell you is that once they start the chemo, they have to monitor the white blood cell level. If the wbc count is too low, they can't admin chemo anyway. With Monkee, he had one chemo treatment and then we couldn't do another one for weeks (even tho the protocol he was to be on was once a week), b/c his wbc was so low and the vet couldn't tell if that was due to an infection (unlikely), the felv attacking his body (maybe), or the chemo itself killing off white blood cells (most likely). Monkee only had a few chemo treatments and the tumor on his leg didn't shrink- in fact, it grew. Either his leukemia was full blown by the time we even discovered the tumor, or the chemo itself hastened the leukemia's progress. That is one of the main risks with chemo that you have to consider. It can definitely have the opposite effect that you would want in that it can take the felv+ cat down so far by killing off the good cells remaining in your cats body-- white blood cells to fight infections AND red blood cells (if your cat is not yet anemic (low RBCs)), I can bet you that the chemo treatment itself will make the cat anemic due to killing off the RBCs. On that note, has the vet done a blood panel yet? I would ask for one now before you make a decision and find out what the RBC and WBC count is, among other things. You need to keep in mind that lymphosarcoma/lymphoma is the number 1 form of cancer that develops in domestic cats (felv and non felv) and dogs. I believe the vet profession automatically recommends chemo b/c of this type of cancer's prevalence in domestic cats and dogs, however, that doesn't mean that chemo should be the treatment of choice for an felv+ cat-- whereby the nature of the disease itself is an immunosuppressive disorder, and when it becomes active-- typically manifests itself as severe and life-threatening anemia. It seems a counter-intuitive treatment. _ Talk to your Yahoo! Friends via Windows Live Messenger. Find out how. http://www.windowslive.com/explore/messenger?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger_yahoo_082008 ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
[Felvtalk] re chemotherapy? 2nd part
2 of 2 from me: I always said that, with what I learned in hindsight, if I had the opportunity to do it differently, I would. At the time, I was not educated enough on the disease to make a truly informed decision about the chemo and I was frantic and not thinking clearly. AND I was obsessed with Monkee and blinded by a belief that it was most important to try everything. I have come to realize now- especially since my work fostering cats since Monkee's death- that trying everything! IS NOT the most important, or most correct thing to do. If I ever have another felv+ cat and I am faced with the same dilemma, my choice will be to forego chemo, continue prednisone (which will make the cat's day to day life more comfortable and can sometimes have an effect on tumors- stabilize them, maybe even shrink them a little), and keep him happy, COMPLETELY NON-STRESSED, and spend every freaking moment loving him. I would continue to take the cat to the vet to monitor the red blood cells, etc. But I would forego chemo, the blood transfusions that almost always come with chemo and/or severe anemia caused by felv and/or the chemo treatment itself, and in Monkee's case, his specialist wanted the leg tumor surgically removed when the chemo didn't shrink it and honestly, I think the surgery just really knocked the poor thing past the point of return. He was in so much pain for 2 days after- it was horrible. We will never know for sure if the severe anemia that eventually caused him to die in my arms late one night, was caused by the felv itself becoming active, or if the chemo and/or surgery was actually the final straw in really kicking in the anemia. Yes it's likely his felv was already full-blown by the time the tumor was discovered, but in my opinion, the chemo and surgery definitely did not prolong his life. When the vet suggests chemo for this cancer, you have to know that they are reccommending this as a life-prolonging treatment that will at best, prolong the cat's life by only a few months. And you may say what I said-- that I have to give him those few months- I owe that to him! But what did I really do for him? Rush him off to multi vets- 2 vet specialists, borrowed money from my mom to pay for his extremely expensive treatment, stressed him out with blood taking, a blood transfusion, chemo and surgery...and stressed him out with my crying and crying and crying? I really suspect that the chemo/transfusions/surgery DID NOT prolong Monkee's life and wonder now how long we could have sailed along with him having his tumor on his leg (that didn't bother him at all!), taking prednisone (and feeling like super-Monkee!), and chilling in our little house-- happily eating raw chicken livers and raw lean buffalo (for his anemia), playing, napping and loving a non-stressfull life The gamble on the other side is, can you live with yourself and the questioning of yourself for not doing the chemo? You have to weigh both sides and what is best for your cat. Not what is best for you. Caroline (and Monkee in spirit) _ Get ideas on sharing photos from people like you. Find new ways to share. http://www.windowslive.com/explore/photogallery/posts?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Photo_Gallery_082008 ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] re chemotherapy? 2nd part
Caroline, I've been considering asking the same question regarding a dear, sweet rescue kitty of ours, and want you to know how helpful your detailed reponse was. I remember reading about Monkee...thank you for all of the love you gave him. Heather On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Caroline Kaufmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2 of 2 from me: I always said that, with what I learned in hindsight, if I had the opportunity to do it differently, I would. At the time, I was not educated enough on the disease to make a truly informed decision about the chemo and I was frantic and not thinking clearly. AND I was obsessed with Monkee and blinded by a belief that it was most important to try everything. I have come to realize now- especially since my work fostering cats since Monkee's death- that trying everything! IS NOT the most important, or most correct thing to do. If I ever have another felv+ cat and I am faced with the same dilemma, my choice will be to forego chemo, continue prednisone (which will make the cat's day to day life more comfortable and can sometimes have an effect on tumors- stabilize them, maybe even shrink them a little), and keep him happy, COMPLETELY NON-STRESSED, and spend every freaking moment loving him. I would continue to take the cat to the vet to monitor the red blood cells, etc. But I would forego chemo, the blood transfusions that almost always come with chemo and/or severe anemia caused by felv and/or the chemo treatment itself, and in Monkee's case, his specialist wanted the leg tumor surgically removed when the chemo didn't shrink it and honestly, I think the surgery just really knocked the poor thing past the point of return. He was in so much pain for 2 days after- it was horrible. We will never know for sure if the severe anemia that eventually caused him to die in my arms late one night, was caused by the felv itself becoming active, or if the chemo and/or surgery was actually the final straw in really kicking in the anemia. Yes it's likely his felv was already full-blown by the time the tumor was discovered, but in my opinion, the chemo and surgery definitely did not prolong his life. When the vet suggests chemo for this cancer, you have to know that they are reccommending this as a life-prolonging treatment that will at best, prolong the cat's life by only a few months. And you may say what I said-- that I have to give him those few months- I owe that to him! But what did I really do for him? Rush him off to multi vets- 2 vet specialists, borrowed money from my mom to pay for his extremely expensive treatment, stressed him out with blood taking, a blood transfusion, chemo and surgery...and stressed him out with my crying and crying and crying? I really suspect that the chemo/transfusions/surgery DID NOT prolong Monkee's life and wonder now how long we could have sailed along with him having his tumor on his leg (that didn't bother him at all!), taking prednisone (and feeling like super-Monkee!), and chilling in our little house-- happily eating raw chicken livers and raw lean buffalo (for his anemia), playing, napping and loving a non-stressfull life The gamble on the other side is, can you live with yourself and the questioning of yourself for not doing the chemo? You have to weigh both sides and what is best for your cat. Not what is best for you. Caroline (and Monkee in spirit) _ Get ideas on sharing photos from people like you. Find new ways to share. http://www.windowslive.com/explore/photogallery/posts?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Photo_Gallery_082008 ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
[Felvtalk] RE Chemotherapy?
Adrienne:I'm sorry about the diagnosis. I have been through this myself. This is a very personal decision you have to make. I can't tell you what to do, jut my experience. My beloved Monkee was diagnosed with lymphosarcoma in April 2007. He was also a Felv+ cat (I had had him tested 3 times). He lived 4 years with me as the picture of health until I found the lump on his leg in March. He was my only cat and in short, I worshipped him. I'd lived for 4 years in fear of felv raising it's ugly head and actually started to think he was maybe a mere carrier and it would never claim him. I was desperate to save him and fight the good fight. Chemo was recommended and we began it immediately. It was very very very expensive and very hard on him. He hated it. He knew when we turned into the vet specialists clinic parking lot, even tho he was in his carrier and couldn't see-- he knew the last turn- could sense it. The problem with the chemo for a felv+ cat is manyfold: it stresses them out- which any added stress for a felv+ cat, whether symptomatic or not, is bad; chemo works by not only killing the bad cells, but the good ones too-- which will take a felv+ cat down even further than one that is felv-; also, what the doctor doesn't always tell you is that once they start the chemo, they have to monitor the white blood cell level. If the wbc count is too low, they can't admin chemo anyway. With Monkee, he had one chemo treatment and then we couldn't do another one for weeks (even tho the protocol he was to be on was once a week), b/c his wbc was so low and the vet couldn't tell if that was due to an infection (unlikely), the felv attacking his body (maybe), or the chemo itself killing off white blood cells (most likely). Monkee only had a few chemo treatments and the tumor on his leg didn't shrink- in fact, it grew. Either his leukemia was full blown by the time we even discovered the tumor, or the chemo itself hastened the leukemia's progress. That is one of the main risks with chemo that you have to consider. It can definitely have the opposite effect that you would want in that it can take the felv+ cat down so far by killing off the good cells remaining in your cats body-- white blood cells to fight infections AND red blood cells (if your cat is not yet anemic (low RBCs)), I can bet you that the chemo treatment itself will make the cat anemic due to killing off the RBCs. On that note, has the vet done a blood panel yet? I would ask for one now before you make a decision and find out what the RBC and WBC count is, among other things. You need to keep in mind that lymphosarcoma/lymphoma is the number 1 form of cancer that develops in domestic cats (felv and non felv) and dogs. I believe the vet profession automatically recommends chemo b/c of this type of cancer's prevalence in domestic cats and dogs, however, that doesn't mean that chemo should be the treatment of choice for an felv+ cat-- whereby the nature of the disease itself is an immunosuppressive disorder, and when it becomes active-- typically manifests itself as severe and life-threatening anemia. It seems a counter-intuitive treatment. I always said that, with what I learned in hindsight, if I had the opportunity to do it differently, I would. At the time, I was not educated enough on the disease to make a truly informed decision about the chemo and I was frantic and not thinking clearly. AND I was obsessed with Monkee and blinded by a belief that it was most important to try everything. I have come to realize now- especially since my work fostering cats since Monkee's death- that trying everything! IS NOT the most important, or most correct thing to do. If I ever have another felv+ cat and I am faced with the same dilemma, my choice will be to forego chemo, continue prednisone (which will make the cat's day to day life more comfortable and can sometimes have an effect on tumors- stabilize them, maybe even shrink them a little), and keep him happy, COMPLETELY NON-STRESSED, and spend every freaking moment loving him. I would continue to take the cat to the vet to monitor the red blood cells, etc. But I would forego chemo, the blood transfusions that almost always come with chemo and/or severe anemia caused by felv and/or the chemo treatment itself, and in Monkee's case, his specialist wanted the leg tumor surgically removed when the chemo didn't shrink it and honestly, I think the surgery just really knocked the poor thing past the point of return. He was in so much pain for 2 days after- it was horrible. We will never know for sure if the severe anemia that eventually caused him to die in my arms late one night, was caused by the felv itself becoming active, or if the chemo and/or surgery was actually the final straw in really kicking in the anemia. Yes it's likely his felv was already full-blown by the time the tumor was discovered, but in my opinion,
Re: [Felvtalk] re chemotherapy? 2nd part
Couple of points I disagree with: When the vet suggests chemo for this cancer, you have to know that they are reccommending this as a life-prolonging treatment that will at best, prolong the cat's life by only a few months. This is not true in more cases than not, even with FeLV+ cats, I'm on a feline lymphoma list and there have been several FeLV+ cats with cancer on there. One that comes to mind in particular is Samba, he is FeLV+ and had chemo, yes it was hard on him but he has been in remission for over 4 years, he just recently in the last month or so came out of remission and this second time around the chemo is not working as well, he is in fact quite sick this time and they don't give him much of a chance (I'm still praying for a miracle and sending healing energy). BUT for the last 4 years he has been doing great and hasn't been on chemo for 3 1/2 of those. They did stop the chemo because he became septic after 6 months but without those 6 months of chemo which for the most part he handle fairly well, he would have died long ago. Yes, chemo is hard on the body, with or without FeLV but if you find a good oncologist or internal specialist who really knows what they are doing you you can have some miraculous results. Not every internal specialist or oncologist is created equal. I personally will do everything within my power to try and save my furkids when they are sick, sometimes it pays off sometimes it doesn't, but I will never have to wonder if only I had tried this would they still be here, that for me is something I can not live with. If I had human kids it would be the same way, I would do whatever I had to to make them well, just because initially they may not feel so good, if it means they may get cured, for me it is worth it. Once they are old enough to make their own decisions then they can do what they want with their lives. I feel this way because I have seen a miracle or two and I would never give up without trying everything. And if I am ever sick, I expect whoever is taking care of me to do the same, we all have free will ... if I don't want to go on, I can make that choice and then nothing anyone does will change the out come. My grandmother years ago died of a broken heart when she lost her daughter, nothing anybody said or did was going to change that, she just didn't want to live anymore, there was nothing physically wrong with her, she had just lost the will to live and died peacefully in her sleep 3 weeks after her daughter. Every person has their own belief system and they should do what is right for them according to what their beliefs are. I personally do believe there is more after we leave here, but I'm in no hurry to go ... it'll all still be there when I get there!! *PS. * It is true that most vets will tell someone that chemo won't help and only give the patient a few months, but I know many, many cats parents on the feline lymphoma list who were told just that, and their furkids are alive, in remission and well today, years later. *P.S.S. *Some of those cats that went into remission and died years later died of something other than cancer, heart disease, kidney disease, they never did get come out of remission. Just wanted to give another side to cancer and chemo ... -- Belinda happiness is being owned by cats ... http://bemikitties.com http://BelindaSauro.com ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
