Re: [Finale] syllabification
At 7:03 PM -0700 4/10/04, Mark D Lew wrote: On Apr 10, 2004, at 4:53 PM, Ryan Beard wrote: I'm working on a choir piece based on Psalm 23. I'm having trouble finding the correct syllabification of some of the King James English words like maketh, leadeth, restoreth, preparest all those -eth -est words. The dictionaries I have don't include these particular forms of the words. You can treat -eth and -est exactly as you would treat -ing or -er. Your instincts are right: split before the suffix. There is one school of thought that says always split after a long vowel, in which case you would have ma-king. I've seen that in some 19th century British editions, but I think it's pretty much rejected now. If you agree with ma-king then you should also do ma-keth to be consistent. I mention this only to be thorough, I definitely don't recommend it. By the way, am I the only one who has noticed lots of nonstandard hyphenations in _The Economist_ magazine over the past few months? Are they trying to make a statement, or is it just a crappy hyphenation program? mdl Our Roanoke Times certainly has a random hyphenation program. Certainly you have to stop sometimes and figure out what the word really is--which is a strong argument for correct syllable breaking. I should also point out that Mark's suggestion makes reading the words much quicker and intuitive. But of course a singer isn't going to actually pronounce them that way. Tacking the consonant onto the 2nd syllable is good vocal practice: may-keth, lee-deth, re-stoh-reth, pre-pa-rest. In other words, the rules are different for printing (to make the word clear) and for singing (to make the words clear!). John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] syllabification
At 2:48 PM -0700 4/11/04, Mark D Lew wrote: On Apr 11, 2004, at 1:10 PM, John Howell wrote: I should also point out that Mark's suggestion makes reading the words much quicker and intuitive. But of course a singer isn't going to actually pronounce them that way. Tacking the consonant onto the 2nd syllable is good vocal practice: may-keth, lee-deth, re-stoh-reth, pre-pa-rest. In other words, the rules are different for printing (to make the word clear) and for singing (to make the words clear!). We've been through this before. Of course the singer is going to pronounce the consonant at the beginning of the next note -- that's one of the first things any choral singer is taught -- but it doesn't follow that every consonant should be printed after the hyphen. Hey, read my message again. We're on the same side, here! I was simply making the point that there are different criteria for printing than for singing. Non-singers may not know that. And singers often get hung up trying to write down the words as they would sing them (as i've discovered teaching vocal arranging!). John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] RE: How do I do this?
At 4:44 PM -0700 4/5/04, Ryan Beard wrote: You're really prepared to write a part with 8, 9, or 10 sharps in the key signature? I realize this is an extreme example. Just curious where you draw the line. For most well-trained, experienced musicians, confusion starts to set in with the first double flat or the first double sharp. The pros don't let it bother them, but the brain activity increases to process the information faster. Less-than-pros have to work it out on their own rather than sightreading it. I always cross the barrier at 6# or 6b and keep the reading as easy as possible, but I must admit that scoring e.g. alto sax in 5 flats when the other instruments are in sharps is NOT the most intuitive thing for my brain to handle. It's like writing for A clarinet: It helps to think of a different clef to keep track of where Do is! For string players sightreading, it really does make a difference. Six flats forces their hands into half position, while six sharps gives them a normal but raised first position. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Rave Act protest scheduled
At 1:59 PM -0500 4/2/04, Andrew Stiller wrote: I have received the following communication from the Drug Policy Alliance, wh. may be of interest to US Finale listers: Congress is considering legislation that would hold bands, DJs, bartenders, promoters, venue owners, radio stations and others liable if a patron uses drugs at a nightclub or concert. If enacted, music lovers could soon be unable to see their favorite band, DJ or other entertainment live. The economic impact on the music industry could be devastating. (For more detailed information on this legislation see the link at the bottom of this alert.) Looks a lot like one more in a series of immortal urban legends. Anybody know? John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Kyle Gann's Articles on Sibelius
At 8:19 PM +0100 3/24/04, Daniel Wolf wrote: However, if we want the delayed tuplet notation, or a metre in which denominator is anything other than a power-of-two, then we are probably limited to Score or Music Press, programs that are essentially for graphics, or using Finale as a graphics program and simply ignoring the playback facility. Shouldn't be that big a deal. Mosaic has been able to do it from the very beginning. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Inquiry from a middle school teacher
With Scott's permission, I'm passing his question on to the knowledgeable folks on this list. Please reply directly to him (address below). Thanks for any help you can provide. Sounds like his tech coordinator is sold on OSS/FS based on his experience with office programs. Obviously for a middle school program he doesn't need one of the more expensive programs. John At 3:11 PM -0500 3/18/04, Scott Lounsbury wrote: Hello all, Our district's technology coordinator is exploring the possibilities of non-Windows environments (non-Mac, too-- as we're trying to cut costs not double them), and we're coming up with pros and cons. I'm writing to ask if any of you has information about music software (notation and sequencing, more than DB or Office stuff) that is designed with a Unix or Linux based code. I am also curious about Unix/Linux versions of MS-DOS programs such as Sibelius (my current notation package), and seek information about them, too. Specifically, I want to know what's out there in the OSS (Open Source Software) and FS (Free Software) world that musicians use. I want to know how it stacks up against Windows-based software, and what problems/successes you've experienced. My fear is that there's nothing, as of yet, but I am eager to be shown how wrong I am. Thanks! Scott Lounsbury Belmont Middle School Belmont, NH mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Adjusting speed of a string portamento
At 11:55 AM -0500 3/18/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So far I have been unsuccessful in adjusting the speed and accurate placement of a string portamento in human playback (Finale 2004 Windows. The effect I want is a very quick slide...the same effect as shifting position. I want to go from B to D#, second finger on the G string (violin). What I get is a SLOW portamento which is offensive. How do I delay the start and increase the speed of this shift? I used the TG Tools Smart Playback plug-in to get where I am with it. Guy Hayden, Minister of Music This won't answer your playback problem, unfortunately, but my first question would be, what kind of portamento are you looking for? Shifting from one finger to a higher note with the same finger, as you describe, is one kind. A violinist can adjust for anything from barely audible port. to slow and sloppy. A foundational shift going up the string from one finger to a higher finger is quite a different effect, with the slide being made on the lower finger and the upper finger snapping into place cleanly. That can also be infinitely adjusted. An adjacent finger shift switches fingers on the way up, and most of the slide is on the new finger, giving a minimal port. that is, again, controlable. I guess the reason I bring this up is that if you don't indicate to the player in some way, in the notation, which effect you want, you might not like what you get. This has nothing to do with MIDI playback, of course. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Italian
At 9:33 PM +0100 3/18/04, d. collins wrote: Can mai count as two syllables in Italian? I have a 17th century print that seems to give it two notes. Thanks, Dennis I believe that each vowel gets its own note, unlike languages like English which are full of diphthongs and triphthons. You often find bisyllabic Italian words on a single note, and the singer has to know to divide the note in 2. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Getting a barline at the start of ech line
At 11:23 AM +1100 3/14/04, Rocky Road wrote: I have a single treble clef stave and and each line starts open ended. I have gone into the measure attributes and chosen normal for the left barline, but it doesn't show. How can I get each stave to start with a barline on the left (to the left of the clef)? -- Rocky Road - in Oz An open end IS normal! One of our composer/arrangers for our community band uses Finale pretty much as it came out of the box, and always has a barline at the beginning of each line, so there's a way to do it, but I find that when I read his music it strikes me as a rather odd affectation. It is NOT standard in the industry except for (a) instruments which use the grand staff, and (b) Broadway copying where there is no key signature at the beginning of each line, making the barline necessary. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Feature Request: Tabbed windows
At 3:10 PM -0500 3/15/04, Darcy James Argue wrote: Eric, The two are not mutually exclusive. I believe some linkage between score and parts is eventually coming, but I'm pretty sure it's a difficult problem to solve and is probably several years off, still. In the meanwhile, tabs would at least make it easier to manually update the score and all of the parts at once. Can't be all that hard. Mosaic has done it since the beginning--around 1992? JOHN -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Is mp a redundant dynamic?
At 3:00 PM + 3/13/04, Colin Broom wrote: I've spoken to a number of musicians recently, including a noted orchestral conductor, and several composers who all seem to feel that the dynamic 'mezzo piano' is basically a meaningless dynamic, and they think it should never be used. I've even heard one go as far as to say that the same is true of 'mf' as well. I personally don't agree with this at all, and for me there is a clear distinction between p, mp and mf, but I was wondering how widespread this feeling about mp is, and how folk on the list feel about it? And if it's redundant, then why is it redundant? C. As a composer/arranger those dynamics have very definite meanings for me, and I don't understand why anyone would think otherwise. Our string orchestra is currently rehearsing Grieg and Tchaikovsky, and both use even finer gradations, like piu p in a pp passage, or meno f in an f passage. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Accidentals after transposition
At 9:37 PM -0500 3/5/04, Crystal Premo wrote: The piece I'm talking about specifically today is More from Dick Tracy. This is a piece with no guitar chords. It started out in Eb, and taking it down a minor third (which is what women usually want) by putting it in C# left only one double sharp, so that was really good. I assume that was a typo, Crystal. A minor 3rd down from Eb would be C. But choosing between C# and Db I would take Db every time. (Trivia: What key did Andrew Lloyd Webber write most of his most important songs in? Db.) John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale]
Could the listma take care of admonishing or unsubscribing this spamming idiot so we don't all have to do it individually? John At 12:18 AM +0100 3/2/04, WEDELMUSIC wrote: Sorry for any multiple reception of this message. If you do not want to receive further information about WEDELMUSIC 2004, please send back an email with REMOVE on the subject. The topics of this e-mail are: Call for Papers, submission deadline: 20th March 2004 4th International Conference on Web Delivering of Music, WEDELMUSIC 2004 Universitat Pompeu Fabra, Barcelona, Spain 13th-15th September 2004 Call for participation 3rd Open Workshop MUSICNETWORK, Munich, March 2004 MPEG AHG on Music Notation Requirements 13-14 of March 2004, Munich, Germany Announcement of co-location of 4th Open Workshop MUSICNETWORK Universitat Pompeu Fabra, Barcelona, Spain 14th-16th September 2004 Cheers, Paolo Nesi, Jaime Delgado, Kia Ng -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. Call for Papers 4th International Conference on Web Delivering of Music, WEDELMUSIC 2004 Universitat Pompeu Fabra, Barcelona, Spain 13th-15th September 2004 http://www.upf.edu/wedelmusic2004/http://www.wedelmusic.org/ Content distribution is presently not anymore limited to music and is becoming more cross media oriented. New distribution models for old and new content formats are opening new paths: i-TV, mobile phones, PDAs, etc. The development of the Internet technologies introduces strong impact on system architectures and business processes. New national and international regulations, policies and market evolution are constraining the distribution mechanisms. Novel distribution models, development and application of pervasive computing and multimedia strongly influence this multi- disciplinary field. The need of content control and monitoring is demanding effective Digital Rights Management (DRM) solutions integrated with sustainable business and transaction models. These technologies impact on the production and modelling of cross media content. WEDELMUSIC-2004 aims to explore these major topics in cross media field, to address novel approaches for distributing content to larger audiences, providing wider access and encouraging broader participation. The impact of these developments on cultural heritage is also considered, together with their availability to people with limited access to content. The conference is open to all the enabling technologies behind these problems. We are promoting discussion and interaction among researchers, practitioners, developers, final users, technology transfer experts, and project managers. Topics Topics of interest include, but are not restricted to: --Protection formats and tools for music --Transaction models for delivering music, Business models for publishers --Copyright ownership protection --Digital Rights Management --High quality Audio Coding --Watermarking techniques for various media types --Formats and models for distribution --Music manipulation and analysis, transcoding, etc.. --Music and tools for impaired people - Braille --Publishers and distributors servers --Cross media delivery on multi-channel systems, mobile, i-TV, PDAs, Internet, etc. --Automatic cross media content production --MPEG-4, MPEG-7 and MPEG-21 --Viewing and listening tools for music --Music editing and manipulation --Music education techniques --Content based retrieval --Conversion and digital adaptation aspects, techniques and tools --Music imaging, music sheet digitalisation, --Solutions for cultural heritage valorisation see for other topics the web site. Research Papers Papers should describe original and significant work in the research and practice of the main topics listed above. Research case studies, applications and experiments are particularly welcome. Papers should be limited to approx. 2000-5000 words (8 pages) in length. Of the accepted paper, 8 pages will be published in the conference proceedings. The conference proceedings book will be published by the IEEE Computer Society. Industrial Papers Proposals for papers and reports of Applications and Tools are also welcome. These may consist of experiences from actual utilisation of tools or industrial practice and models. Proposals will be reviewed by the Industrial members of the Program Committee. Papers should be limited to approx. 1000-2500 words (4 pages) in length. Of the accepted paper, 4 pages will be published in the conference proceedings. Submissions All submissions and proposals should be written in English following the IEEE format and submitted in PDF format via email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] by 20 March 2004. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. 4th Open Workshop MUSICNETWORK Universitat Pompeu Fabra, Barcelona, Spain 14th-16th September 2004 More details and the call for contribution will appear on: http://www.interactivemusicnetwork.org After the 3rd Open Workshop as
Re: [Finale] Instrumentation Description Criteria
At 12:46 PM +0100 3/5/04, Giovanni Andreani wrote: Hello, I would like to here what you think about this: I'm updating a database which contains instrumentation description and got to decide the most suitable criteria (regarding the linguistic aspect) for instrument's composite names. Which, between the following, would you find most correct: 1. Diatonic Soprano Xylophone 2. Soprano Diatonic Xylophone 3. Soprano Xylophone (Diatonic) 4. Xylophone (Soprano Diatonic) Thank you Giovanni Well, since this would presumeably only come up in reference to Orff-type instruments, I'd favor #1. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Re:WEDELMUSIC
At 12:33 PM -0600 3/5/04, Henry Howey wrote: You have no one to blame but your friendly list-owner. This was caught in the SPAM filter, and I allowed it as Nesi has an interesting product that needs some REAL input to make it work. If his work pans out, publishing will never be the same. Remember PETRUCCI? ;-) Sure. First printer of music, using triple-impression method. Lived in Venice. Had a monopoly on part-songs and lute tablature. I knew him well. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Punctuation and Word Extensions
At 4:33 PM +0100 2/27/04, Johannes Gebauer wrote: I don't often work with lyrics, so forgive me if this is common knowledge: Is there a way (in 2k4) to have punctuation (ie colon, comma or semi-colon) to appear at the end of the word extension line? Thanks, Johannes Even if there is, I would suggest that you not do it. In English, at least, it's important to keep the punctuation with the word that precedes it. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: Horns and signatures
At 4:26 PM -0600 2/22/04, Robert Patterson wrote: The second is (and this is crucial): repeat the current key signature at the beginning of every line. I don't care if this is not customary for the genre (e.g., a jazz chart). If you are writing for a horn player or any other player whose experience is mostly symphonic, put the key signature on every line no matter the genre. The whole reason for taking such care is to reduce errors. Where this is really maddening is in the books for Broadway shows. There could easily be 3 key signature changes on a single page, all made in the middle of a line, never a sig at the beginning of the line. And in most cases they'll keep using those pages, copied back in the 40s and 50s, and never invest in improved scores. What about new shows? Are they finally getting away from hand copy and producing computer-engraved parts? John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: Horns and signatures
At 6:06 PM +0100 2/23/04, Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 23.02.2004 17:21 Uhr, John Howell wrote Berlioz specifically recommended using 2 pairs of horns in 2 different keys so you could write more different notes by trading off horns. (And this is also the beginning of the tradition of having high specialists and low specialists in the horn section, with 1st and 3rd, not 1st and 2nd, being the high specialists.) Well, I am not an expert on horn parts, but the tradition of having high and low horn specialists must be older than that. You certainly have it in the 18th century. You didn't have 4 of them, but there were high and low parts, and players that specialized on one of them. We did an all-Mozart concert a year and a half ago, and when I looked at the horn parts I was amazed. He wrote up to (written) high a, b, and c, and then turned around and wrote not just low g's but lower c's in bass clef. Of course he knew the people he was writing for, which we tend to forget. Incidentally the Berlin Concertmaster Johann Gottlieb Graun produced (ie composed) some of the most difficult (ie high) horn parts in the 18th century. Haydn's Hornsignal symphony (more of a concerto grosso, actually) presupposes some darned good horn players. And I understand that some of the horn parts Mozart wrote for his buddies at Mannheim are 'way harder than the ones published in Paris. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: Horns staves
At 11:46 PM -0500 2/25/04, Raymond Horton wrote: Are you sure about that Berlioz statement? Or was that just the infamous two-horns-blown-with-bells-held-tightly-together-to-produce-a-note-not-possi ble-any-other-way effect that Berlioz wrote about (and I've never yet seen two players brave enough to try). No, I'm not 100% sure, but that's the way I remember having read it. And the orchestration class statement was fairly silly. With horns, the hi-lo pairing was 100% historical, now it is 85% utilitarian. Yes and no. There are still Hi or Lo specialists, but most well-schooled hornists can indeed play anything. I no longer play horn nor do I teach it, but I do know that at Horn Society conferences there are competitions for general players, hi players, and low players. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: Horns staves
Mea culpa! I agree. I think I was looking through the wrong end of the telescope! I meant to say what you said. And yes, I've looked at--and played from--lots of 19th century horn scores, especially in the Farkas orchestral excerpts book. John At 3:31 PM + 2/25/04, Robert Patterson wrote: Erm. I don't mean to be insulting or facetious, but have you actually *looked* at the horn staves of any 19th century scores? Everything I've stated on this subject is based neither on books nor assumptions. It is based on studying (esp.) 19th cent. scores. If you go back to when natural horns were played in pairs, it was essentially universal practice to place one pair (i.e, 12) on the top staff and 34 on the bottom staff. It is only in the waning years of the 19th cent. you begin to see any deviation at all from this. These deviations were almost always specific to a particular passage and lasted only a few pages. I don't ask you to accept my word for it. I ask you to look for yourself. John Howell wrote: I doubt that, Robert, with all respect. It's pretty standard in 19th century orchestral scores, although during the 20th century your way became standard for band scores. It simply goes back to the days when natural horns were played in pairs, sometimes one pair in one key and the other in another. That gives you a natural high-low pair for each key. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: Horns staves
At 3:48 PM + 2/25/04, Robert Patterson wrote: The second is, under no circumstances supply parts that double up with 1/3 on a part and 2/4 on a part. Doing so gains you instant disrespect from the horn section. And you risk losing your 2nd and 3rd parts entirely, depending on the amount of rehearsal time and the alertness of the players. Actually I often do that in band music, for a very sepcific reason. The horn section in our Community Band is somewhat unpredictable, so I essentially write for 2 horn parts with occasional divisi. That gives me 1 3 on horn 1, and 2 4 ON HORN 2. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: Horns staves
Tim Cates: what I was taught in an orchestration class was that the interlocked parts had more to do with the physics of having the close harmony in the player sitting next to you There's something to that. In fact, Berlioz recommended (speaking of valveless horns, of course) that the players in each pair hold their horns with the bells facing each other. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: Horns staves
At 12:19 PM -0600 2/23/04, Robert Patterson wrote: The best I can tell, the *only* reason the horn parts are ever routinely scored 1/3, 2/4 is due to misinformation in the Walter Piston orchestration book that was followed as gospel by a generation of composers and their students. I doubt that, Robert, with all respect. It's pretty standard in 19th century orchestral scores, although during the 20th century your way became standard for band scores. It simply goes back to the days when natural horns were played in pairs, sometimes one pair in one key and the other in another. That gives you a natural high-low pair for each key. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Hyphen under rest?
At 6:18 PM +0100 2/22/04, d. collins wrote: I have a word that begins with a melisma on the first syllable, followed by a rest before the second syllable. The hyphens continue to run under the rest. Is that how things should be, or should the hyphens stop after the last note, before the rest? Thanks, Dennis Don 't know any rule about this, but logic suggests that the word does continue, even though the noise doesn't. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: Horns and signatures
At 4:53 PM +0200 2/23/04, Mr. Liudas Motekaitis wrote: This is an interesting discussion, but can somebody please provide a bit of background as to why there exists literature in which only the horn parts would be written without a key signature? Liudas Coming to this thread late, after yesterday's successful concert! Not just horns. Typical for natural trumpets as well. The short answer is to suggest looking at the 17th and 18th century history of those instruments and their introduction into orchestral ensembles. Because they were natural instruments, playing only the notes of the harmonic series, the composer had to specify which key the instruments should be crooked into. And that automatically put the PARTS they were reading from into C major. (This goes back even further to late 16th century notation for trumpet corps, which I won't get into.) Now it's clear from Mozart's use of notes outside the harmonic series that horn players, if not trumpeters, were quite capable of lipping a lot of additional notes, but the notes of the harmonic series were still the best sounding notes on the instrument. (And please don't bring up the Haydn and Hummel trumpet concertos, because those were written for a keyed trumpet. Think of a saxophone played with a trumpet mouthpiece. Or, if you have a weak stomach, DON'T think of it!) And there's also the fact that instruments crooked in different keys had remarkably different sounds. Even when played on F horns, the tessitura of the horns in A in Beethoven's 7th give a brilliance to the music that horns in D or Eb would never have. By the end of Beethoven's life, valved instruments were being produced, but they didn't catch on real fast, and composers were still writing for natural instruments. Berlioz specifically recommended using 2 pairs of horns in 2 different keys so you could write more different notes by trading off horns. (And this is also the beginning of the tradition of having high specialists and low specialists in the horn section, with 1st and 3rd, not 1st and 2nd, being the high specialists.) After that it simply became a matter of tradition. Brahms wrote for horn in B natural in one of his symphonies--a tritone transposition on F horn!--even though the part is only playable on a valved horn. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] TAN: binding oversize pages
Lee Actor wrote: For parts, the only reason I can imagine for not making them as booklets with staples down the middle, is if they are too long to be practical in that form (opera?). A 32-page part printed on 28 lb. paper is quite doable in booklet form. For anything bigger I would use wire coil binding. One other consideration for parts is that comb binding (or wire coil binding, for that matter) doesn't fit well in orchestra folders. I always use booklet format IF there are good page turns. Sometimes there are not, and it's necessary to have 3 pages visible on the stand. In that case, accordion binding, with only one side printed, has long been the professional preference. Many of the Nashville arrangers--you know, the ones who use Finale right out of the box--pay absolutely no attention to page turns. Good Broadway copyists pay lots of attention, and even skip pages to help the players. Some of the Broadway show materials we get use an even older, pre-staple technique. The books for King I, which we did last summer, ran about 100 pages, and the booklets were sewn together! I suspect the same is true of opera parts, certainly pre-computer ones. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: binding oversize pages
This may be a stupid question, but when creating center-stapled parts, what do you do when you have a single middle page, like for instance in a five-page or six-page part? Since it can't be stapled, how do you attach it? Do you just leave it loose? Do you only create parts that are multiples of four pages, and leave the last pages blank? - Darcy I spend the extra blank pages. We've played published music with a loose center page, and it isn't all that hard to use, but I prefer to fix anything questionable before the musicians get the scores! I've also played band music in which, to save one sheet of paper, they've put pages 1 2 on one side of a double sheet and then you have to make a complete flip of the part to get to pages 3 4 on the other, always awkward, often noisy, and utterly impossible if you're outside and using wind clips! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN Being prescriptive
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz and I appear to agree on the following points ... I did not suggest notation provides everything. But the information it *does* provide (such as 8va, which is the genesis of this discussion) needs to be used. Music has evolved dramatically in the past century and, as we've already neither notation nor performance practice kept up (the latter is catching up). *But* 25-year-olds are finally able to play the music written in the decade or two before they were born For the scoring composer, unlike the improvising composer, the instructions are simply not collaborative. They *are* prescriptive. But the notation of a performable 8va passage is not one of these optional, interpretive, collaborative moments. New nonpop notation is pretty doggone prescriptive. Of course it can! I can find the passion in a score without having to use plumbing or scratchboxes or 19th century contraptions. A conductor has to! For me, playing correctly what's written is just the *starting* point for the communication, the soul, and the touching of heart and mind. What was in question here was whether performers could willy-nilly ignore composers' instructions when they wouldn't or couldn't cut it. That's *not* the composer's fault. I won't fix what you can't cut, but if something is wrong, I'll fix it. Show me my mistakes, and I'll shamefacedly patch them up. And for amateurs, I'm happy to make changes (though this discussion has moved away from that) or suggest a different piece or create a new one just for them. ... and to disagree on these: These instructions individually have nothing do with style, unless they are specifically stylistic I would suggest that there is nothing in music or in notation that is NOT stylistic, as your reference to the swing discussion points out. Music always has been and always will be a collaboration between composer and performer (often with an arranger standing between the two, and with a large ensemble always with a conductor standing between them). That is not true, and your examples from the past are really not helpful. That time is over, No, many of us are very active in the music of that time, and want to understand how it was performed not as an academic exercise but as dedicated performers. One of the interesting things about the present state of music is that there are so many different styles available to pick from, some new, some traditional, and others historical. -- though I have to keep in mind here that you are one of those who don't believe turntablists are composers. ;) Right, not my thing at all, although I'm willing to be convinced. The trotting out of this tautology was about due. ;) ?? Yours is just an exaggerated sideways argument against playing correctly what's written. Not at all what I said, just that what's written is only part of the equation. [composers of the past] they were ALWAYS writing for singers and players whom they already knew well and trusted implicitly. Mmmm. Like those concerti for whatsisname Brandenburg? :) Which were almost certainly written for his band at Coethen, whose players and capabilities he knew intimately, and recopied into a nice presentation copy. What I'd like to know is what other masterpieces were sitting on those shelves, that are now lost to us. Old music speaks to me less and less. It's just no longer interesting. I haven't listened to a piece of music in my home more than 20 years old for months and months. Nor am I rock roll nostalgic (please! those TV ads! rgh!). Old music just sounds, well, old. Your choice and your taste. I am becoming more discriminating in that recordings of old music made as the first hints of performance practice were being discovered and applied appeal much less than those made more recently by early music specialists who take the music seriously. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Being prescriptive.
Michael Edwards: It seems to me that some of the debate here is arising from what I would see as a false assumption: that you have an all-or-nothing situation where *either* you have total precision of notation, and performers are obliged to follow it absolutely, in robotic fashion; *or* you have notation serving as a very rough guide, and performers must be allowed, even encouraged, to take freedoms with the music, and freely use the conventions of their era to embellish or modify the music - whereas I would see these as two opposite extremes of a continuous spectrum, and composers would, by natural temperament, fall into different positions on this spectrum. But those who tend more towards one end seem to be denying the validity of the other end, or even the possibility of it existing, and seem to be a touch suspicious of the middle, too. (If many people occupy the middle - it seems a very divisive topic, on the whole.) Precisely what I was trying to convey. Of course it's a continuous spectrum, and of course the balance changes depending on the place, the time period, and the mandates of the style involved. What does cut time mean in a Richard Rodgers song? Most of the time nothing even resembling a march tempo. How does Schoenberg's notation instruct the singer exactly how to perform Sprechstimme? The whole point is that it doesn't. What tells you how to interpret the 8th and quarter notes on the page? Your knowledge of jazz phrasing on the one hand, of traditional classical phrasing on the other, or your knowledge of French Baroque notes inegales on the other. (If Tevya can have more than two hands, so can I!) Rather than arguing that the performer should take any liberties s/he want to with the composer's notation, I would simply suggest that the performer not only should but must interpret that notation. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] A practical question about prolation
Noel Stoutenburg: I want to transcribe a late Renaissance choral piece for small brass ensemble of advanced beginner to early intermediate level. This piece starts with duple prolation and continues that way for about half the piece, at which oint it changes to triple prolation for about a quarter of the piece, and then returns to duple prolation for the last quarter. The character of the piece suggests that two beats of the duple prolation and three beats of the triple prolation should have the same duration I'm mildly confused by your use of the word prolation. It has a very precise technical meaning regarding the relationship between the semibreve and the minim in late 13th-early 14th century mensural notation, but you seem to be using it as a synonym for meter. The use of prolation mensuration signs died out long before the late Renaissance. Be that as it may, I would certainly try your solution first. If we had the exact way the proportion sign was written originally, it might solve the problem. If we don't, the ratio of 2:3 is very often more convincing than the faster-moving 1:3. Of course the one proportion that is ALWAYS wrong is let's keep the quarter note constant! I'm having a problem, though, where the change from 2/2 to 3/2 happens. The cadence in the duple prolation section just before the change ends with a whole measure--two beats, but the triple prolation section has an upbeat, so that where S and W are strong and weak beats in double prolation, and s and w are strong and weak beats in triple prolation, the pattern is OK, I see your problem. First, recognize the fact that this music was probably written without barlines in the first place. That means that while a duple meter can prevail in a section of music, there can also be non-duple meter insertions, and it didn't bother them a bit. If I am reading your example correctly, it looks as if it goes into triple meter one bar earlier. Now, does the scansion of the text support that? If so, that should solve your problem. You may actually have suggested that in your example, but where your barlines come depends on the screen font your reader uses. Andrew may have some cogent thoughts on this as well. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Percussion boxes
Hi all, I am looking for a good source for the kind of boxes that percussionists use to transport mallets and some instruments -- reinforced black cardboard (or sturdier), with straps to keep it closed and a carrying handle. Does anybody know of any good places on the web to look for these? Thanks, Aaron. See if you can find Lone Star Percussion in Texas. Or Humes Berg. Any music store can order them, but you might find better prices. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Robert Dorough info?
This is a long shot, but does anyone know anything about Robert Dorough, who was commissioned to compose Eons Ago Blue for recorder quartet in jazz style for the 1962 recording, Sweet Pipes, by Bernard Krainis and the Krainis Consort. I'm preparing it for a concert, and need at least his date(s) for the program. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz writes: My comments are not about either perfection or 'strict adherence to the printed score', they're about playing -- or being committed to play -- what's written down without excuses or slovenliness, and for the conductor to (a) notice and (b) point it out. [snip] It's also not made clear from the start that the players are expected to do their best to perform what's shown on the page, and not willy-nilly think of notational indications as optional niceties that their compositional judgment, however immature, may override. It really *is* staggering, and an example of a point I've made before on this list: that many performers (and, it seems, conductors) don't ultimately care about the music they're playing -- and so composers are wise to insist on detailed notation rather than leave judgments in the hands of players they don't already know well and trust implicitly. David has ably set out the problems faced by amateur ensembles and their conductors. I would like to comment on another aspect of Dennis' remarks. Dennis, you are indeed arguing for strict adherence to the printed socre. The problem is that musical notation never has, does not today, and never will give the performer absolutely all the information needed for a performance. There are always assumptions, often never even thought about. That's called style. Music always has been and always will be a collaboration between composer and performer (often with an arranger standing between the two, and with a large ensemble always with a conductor standing between them). The responsibility is shared. In the Baroque era that was understood by composer and performer alike. In the Renaissance it was an absolute necessity, since the band leader or head chorister always had to make performance decisions on something as simple as the distribution of parts among singers and instrumentalists. The musical notations developed in the 11th century by Guido, added to in the late 12th century at Notre Dame de Paris, and further developed by Franco, Petrus de Cruce, and Phillipe de Vitry in the 13th and early 14th centuries gave the minimum amount of information needed by the performers. Notation changed when music changed, and new ways of indicating new melodic or rhythmic concepts had to be newly invented, just as happened during the 20th century. It was a blueprint, albeit a crude one in some ways (but very exact in others), from which the performer was expected to create a performance, and it was understood that probably no two performances of the same music would ever be identical. That's just as true (or should be) of every Baroque piece using figured bass, and every jazz piece using chord symbols. It's fine to be prescriptive, if that is your mindset, and to say I want everything that's on the page and nothing that isn't on the page, but music isn't one damn note after another. Music must communicate, must have soul, and must touch the heart and mind of the listener, and markings on a page cannot do that. A skilled, musical, artistic performer can, taking the notes as the blueprint they still are today, and finding the music that is hidden in those markings. In a very real sense, music is phrasing, and phrasing has too many variables to be completely rendered in notation. To draw a crude analogy, a carpenter may follow a blueprint exactly, but he has to decide where to put the nails. And if his blueprint contains an error--equivalent to a composer specifying a tempo that sounds like crap--he has the responsibility of fixing that error. One difference between today and previous centuries is that the old guys weren't composing for publication, for glory, or for self-expression. They were composing for next week's concert, for the week after's church service, for the Duke's garden party, or for themselves and their own students. And yes, they were ALWAYS writing for singers and players whom they already knew well and trusted implicitly. And they were such fine craftsmen that their music still speaks to us, even though we may have lost the instictive way of interpreting that music that both the composers and the performers took for granted. When you write for publication, you lose the right to pick and choose your performers, and you face the reality of having your music played by fallible human beings whom you do NOT know and trust implicitly. I'm not foolishly saying that a composer's wishes aren't very important, but with rare exceptions the composer isn't the performer, and has responsibility to provide as detailed a blueprint as possible, to make sure that it is playable AND sounds good as written, and to answer in advance any questions that may arise. On that we agree. And the performer's responsibility is to take that blueprint and turn it into music, using the tools that are available. Barring mental telepathy, that isn't going to change. John --
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
Ray Horton wrote: Hey! Don't shoot the messenger! I've seen it happen, that's all. I've seen 8va markings for extreme ranges ignored, occasionally, sometimes accidentally, sometimes on purpose. They seem to be taken less seriously, sometimes, by some players, then are leger lines. I have to agree with Ray's very practical observation. I happen to be playing tuba in our Community Band. (Bass trombone is my band axe, but we have a full trombone section and needed tubas.) The tuba I was able to borrow is a 3-valve Eb, so it lacks the low range. (Yes, I've finally figured out how to get the half-wavelength notes, but the instrument is a nice English Besson and what I would have considered logical fingerings didn't work, so I had to experiement.) Some composers and some arrangers assume that every tuba in every band is a BBb, and write accordingly. When we play that music, I have to make continuous choices and basically rewrite the part to fit my instrument. The opening to the John Williams theme from Saving Private Ryan, for instance, sits down on an Ab, piano, for a real long time, and my half-wavelength low Ab isn't all that pretty, but the note's needed so I try to produce it. If the note were fast, I'd automatically play it an octave higher than written. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Beam
Hi! How can I do to make this looking nicer? I have different lengths on beams depending on what note that's there. Also I can't get any of music spacing work nice. I just simply want's all notes be just the same distance, not like the to last eight notes into the bar line. Is there an automatic option that works nicely for this? Mike. Please don't send attachments to the list, or embed them in your messages, folks. I spend time every day clearing out phony messages and virus attachments, and it's an insult to your friends to add to the work load. Protocol is to mount your graphic on your website and send the URL to the list so those interested can find it with a click or two. Thanks! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
On the senza misura question, I know from personal experience that many performers want to know exactly when to play, and don't do well with approximate rhythmic notation. But as soon as one makes the notation more specific, then the freeness is hopelessly lost. Tim I do some of my Renaissance choral editions without barlines, which may not be entirely what you're thinking of. The originals almost never had barlines, so the singer could see the shape of his part and--having been brought up singing chant in groupings of 2s and 3s--find the proper phrasing for each part. That is completely destroyed by accurate modern notation with barlines, whether through the staves or between them. But about half of my singers end up marking in the bar lines anyhow. I do put in bar numbers for rehearsal purposes, and I do put the parts in score, not separately as in the originals. What I would not call this is approximate rhythmic notation. It is very exact notation, but the singer has to sing the individual note lengths accurately without the crutch of bar lines. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
On Tuesday, September 30, 2003, at 09:52 AM, Daniel Dorff wrote (in part): A flutist associates high high C above the 5th line with a certain fingering and seeing that note up there sets up automatic muscle memory in fingers and embouchure that isn't true for the visual experience of the C on the 2nd ledger line. Yes, and another way to think about this is to realize that beginning instrumentalists do not first learn to identify, label and play notes, but fingerings. They learn, in other words, a tablature that applies to their instrument, with each line or space denoting a specific fingering. Labeling those lines and spaces with note names is a lot more intellectual, and generally comes later in the learning process. When I first added viola to my violin playing, I didn't know what notes I was playing for a long time, but I did know how to finger them! On the matter of ledger lines, I've enjoyed reading this thread, but it's really a non-argument. Instrumentalists learn to read the ledger lines that are typically used for their own instrument, and are uncomfortable reading ledger lines that are not. It's a matter of learning, like learning tenor or alto clef if it is not native to your instrument, and anyone can do it. Therefore I would second the suggestions that extended bass clarinet parts remain in treble clef with a 9th transposition. What I would NOT do is expect an orchestral player (and certainly not a band player) to have a low C bass clarinet or even have access to one at any level below fully-professional, full-time orchestral specialists. Which comes down to the basic question of whom your music is intended for, and how willing you are to limit its playability by writing in ranges that are not, in fact, universal. There's a big difference between writing for publication and writing for immediate performance by people whose capabilities you are familiar with, like the old guys did. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: leger lines (was: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet)
Robert Patterson wrote: I, too, have heard that many instrumentalists (specifically violinists) prefer leger lines to 8va symbols. I can accept this up to 5-leger-line (and a half) c4. Do players really prefer leger lines even higher? I don't feel strongly about this, but yes, I think we do. When you get that high what matters is not the relationship between the ledger lines and the staff, but the relationships among the notes themselves, and if the ledger lines are engraved accurately those relationships are still very clear. (That's why some Broadway show books are very difficult to read. Sloppy hand copying does not keep the ledger lines where they belong above (or below) the staff.) Using 8va instead puts another intellectual barrier between your instincts and your playing; you actually have to mentally transpose. And there is the fact that string players--outside the recording gods who can sightread anything--are trained to prepare music ahead of time, not to sightread in rehearsal. Joe Gingold (former concertmaster of the Cleveland Orchestra) used to coach the violinists at Indiana to go to the first rehearsal with the music completely learned, unless you were the concertmaster. In that case, you go to the first rehearsal with the music memorized, so your eyes never leave the conductor. Isaav Asimov used to say the human mind can only distinguish up to five items as a unit. Above that, we slow down and count sub-groups. One of my very favorite writers and philosophers, and the acknowledged master of the simple declarative sentence! But that's exactly what string players (and I assume other players) do when reading not only high passages but all passages: read subgroups. That's why passagework by someone like Dvorak, who was a string player, reads easier than passagework by someone who was a pianist, because the subgroups are logical to a string player and fall well under the fingers. Are there fiddle players here who would rather see 6 leger lines for e4? Consistency is more important. There's nothing more confusing than jumping to 8va for just a few notes, because then you completely lose the note patterns. Same thing for lazy engraving of viola parts, jumping into treble clef for just a few notes, or carrying treble clef down too far. And the worst engraving sins seem to come out of the Contemporary Christian folks in Nashville. You know, the ones who use Finale just as it comes out of the box. On the other hand, their music is quite likely to be performed with only one rehearsal. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Nukey-ler mus-kulls
However, I also say TROMbone sometimes, even though I play one, and also every now and then, UMbrella, both of which induce spousal laughter. Maybe millions DO say TROMbone, and we should call your daughter on that one. But in any case, she should continue to laugh at robutt without a doubt. Stu In America, at least, it's the pronunciation of place names that is constantly surprising. I grew up in Washington state, where a good portion of the town names are native American in origin. In the years when I was constantly on the road, I learned how the natives pronounce Louisville (LOO-uh-vl), Norfolk (NOR-fuck), and a lot of other variations. When we moved to SW Virginia we learned that Appalachian is properly pronounced ap-uh-LATCH-un rather than ap-uh-LAY-chn, and we also have nearby towns called Buena Vista (BIEW-na VIS-ta) and Pulaski (piew-LAS-ki). And of course there's Cairo (KAY-ro) Illinois. Others may disagree, but IMHO the proper pronunciation of place names is the pronunciation used by the natives, not what it looks like on paper. Thus, Worchestershire can be WOO-ster and I'm perfectly happy. And no non-native can figure out how to pronouce Polish or Welsh words from the way they look (like the Duke University basketball coach)! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] examination copies
At 04:19 PM 9/13/2003, Andrew Stiller wrote: A question for publishers: What is your policy when a conductor asks for an examination copy of a score? b) hand it over, but nag for its return or purchase after a month or two. I'd appreciate conductors' thoughts on this, too. Okay -- I've seen mostly variations on (b). Most of the perusal scores I have requested have been from Schirmer, and they send it no charge for 30 days, with a notice that I will be billed for full replacement cost if I have not returned it by then. These have also generally (but not exclusively) been scores that are rental-only. I also requested a perusal copy of a regularly available score from Kalmus. They also made it available for 30 days at no charge, but they took my credit card number when they shipped it. I wound up deciding to purchase this score, so they just ran the charge through when the 30 days were up. Aaron. Luck's Music Library has a similar policy. When you request perusal scores, they are invoiced and billed. If you return them, they un-bill you. (I guess credit would be the correct word!) John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
What is the correct order for this group? Also, what is a good general range for a mezzo-soprano? If you're writing for a specific singer, ask her! And avoid the trap of typical or general ranges for voice types. If it's generic, I wouldn't go higher than G2 or lower than small a, but more important is the tessitura--where the voice spends most of the song--and not the extremes. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
OK, you're notating a blues in D -- that's D mixolydian. What's your key signature, the standard 2 sharps with an accidental for every C, or 1 sharp to reflect the mode? Don't know any rule (I never do!), but I'd use 2 sharps because 1 sharp implies a tonic on G and would introduce confusion. Bartok got away with using non-standard key signatures, but most people don't attempt them. This is, of course, quite a different thing from the minor key baroque pieces which lacked a flat in the key signature that we would think should be there. Some modern editors add that flat, others do not. And it was, indeed, the result of modal dorian practice carrying over into the baroque period. But it strikes me that this would not carry over into neo-modal practice. I look forward to the definitive answers. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
On Wednesday, Aug 20, 2003, at 21:40 Europe/London, Mark D Lew wrote: That's approximately how I feel about academic discounts. I understand the software company's motivation for offering them, of course, but it still ticks me off to know that kids who are living off their parents and/or taxpayers get a better deal than others who have to work for a living. Your poor thing. For goodness' sake. The majority of students I know (and I know a few) struggle to attend lectures because they have to work to pay the rent, and those few who receive government grants have to survive on about half the minimum wage -- the rest end up with a debt that takes decades to pay off. Moreover, they are required to present work that has been word-processed, or in the case of music students, typeset in Finale or similar. Or are you of the opinion that access to education should be dependent on daddy's income? Did it ever occur to you that whole societies benefit from education? They will all pay full price for software when they have proper jobs like your righteous self. I realise that you inhabit a culture which has difficulty with anything that can't be reduced to money, but some people have other motives for being educated, and simply cannot afford to buy hundreds of pounds worth of software at full price. Maybe your ire should be reserved for the executives who make enough in a month to provide fresh water to several million for a year. Dr John Croft Lecturer in Music University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9RQ Taxpayers, Mark? Perhaps you are referring to scholarships or other financial aid. But what, really, are scholarships but discounts on the cost of an education, awarded hopefully because of proven academic excellence, musical achievement, or (sigh) athletic prowess. Not, in other words, available to everyone, but to a chosen few. Perhaps Dr Croft could confirm that in the English system of higher education scholarships were originally awarded on merit to scholars who could not live off daddy's money becuase daddy didn't have enough to send them to college! And John is quite correct in that most financial aid packages emphasize student loans, guaranteeing a heavy load of debt on graduation. Here in Virginia and in quite a few other states the state budgets are in crisis, and one of the first things to get cut is support for higher education. We've been hit with millions in reductions, and we're losing top faculty because of it. So I'll take those academic discounts and be thankful for them! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Slurs and accents
Situation: two-part choral line, written in four16ths and an eighth, stems down, each with an accent above it. A slur is necessary, due to all the notes being over just one word. Using only one slur on the beam side is not an option. How would you draw the slur with respect to the presence of those accents? Richard I assume you mean one syllable rather than one word. My first choice would be to place the slur on the beam side. If that isn't possible (why isn't it?) I would probably place the accents over the noteheads and the slur over the accents. (I'm just picturing it in my mind, and that seems the clearest placement. There's probably a rule, for those who like rules.) John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: What maketh a musician?
A co-worker insists that a deejay is a musician. I say that is a load, that at most he is perhaps an editer or producer. Can a legitimate case be made in his defense? Absolutelyl not! He does not create or recreate music, he uses other people's music. And for the anal, the true test is whether a DJ must join the AFofM. I suspect that the union would have him shot for taking work away from live musicians. On the other hand, I've come to accept that rappers ARE musicians, and that the spoken word can be considered music. Hey, there are Grammies for rappers, but not, as far as I can remember, for DJs. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] It's here -- Finale 2004!
Let the discussion commence! Best, -WR Well, I pointed out a year ago the our music department dropped Finale because last year's Freshman class arrived with OS X computers. And once again, the marketing department seems determined to ignore the educational market that should be so important to them. The Mac version isn't shipping until October 20, much too late for any college I know of. We still wouldn't go back to Finale for that one, simple reason. New features do look good promotionally, though. Finally some things for professional users. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: What maketh a musician?
On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 04:27 PM, John Howell wrote: A co-worker insists that a deejay is a musician. I say that is a load, that at most he is perhaps an editer or producer. Can a legitimate case be made in his defense? Absolutelyl not! He does not create or recreate music, he uses other people's music. John, I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. We're not talking about Clear Channel radio DJs and such, we're talking about serious turntablists like DJ Olive and Q-Bert and Kid Koala. I'm happy to accept Darcy's correction, given that I've never heard the term turntablist, don't recognize a single one of those names, and am very unlikely ever to be in a location where I would run into one of them. I know, ignorance is no excuse, but in this case it may be closer to bliss! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ted Ross reprint]
On Monday, August 11, 2003, at 05:48 PM, Noel Stoutenburg wrote: And, quite related to our field, the Berlioz/Strauss Treatise on Instrumentation. Isn't that the one reprinted by Dover? If it's what I'm thinking of, it's published with big pages, so that it looks just like one of their orchestra score reprints. I'd check, but all of my books are packed up in boxes hundreds of miles away right now. mdl I think it's Kalmus--green cover--but I don't know where my copy is packed away. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Strategy for scores
Craig wrote: So far so good. Right now I'm working on an orchestration for full symphony orchestra + jazz combo + several other instruments not normally in an orchestral score. I set this up as usual, with each instrument having its own staff. I did that so I could easily do an extraction where each player gets his or her own music without any confusing divisi bits. As a musician, I absolutely abhor those combined parts, and I vow never to put any other musicians through that unless the divisi is a very small percentage of the part. As an orchestral string player, I would have to disagree rather strongly. Do you really mean that if, at one point, the violas divide in 3, you would provide parts for Viola 1, Viola 2 and Viola 3? If I were the section leader I would take one look and tell the conductor that your piece is more trouble than it's worth. We know how to handle divisi, and standard engraving practice is just fine. I wrote a band piece in which the euphoniums divide a2, a3, and a4. All the divisi parts appear on the extracted page, each on a separate line, and there is no ambiguity or potential for confusion. If you're just talking about orchestral wind parts, then I agree with you in MOST cases, but possibly not all. If you're talking about percussion parts, I don't agree at all. The parts have to be such that the section leader can distribute them no matter what the size of the section is. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Tacet or 2x only
Christopher BJ Smith wrote: In addition, I'm serious about doubting markings. If a chart shows up with unusual registers, articulations, or instructions, one tends to pay a little closer attention to them. If something is patently illogical or unplayable, then that throws everything else into doubt as well, and I tend to examine every marking more closely and question it, checking against the score or asking if I am in doubt. Another case in point: A few summers ago we did The Wizard of Oz, and when I learned that there was a part for recorder I couldn't wait to see what it was like. Well, the orchestrator had written it as if it were to be played on piccolo (which is what we actually did because it wasn't worth having someone--probably me--play the passage on recorder). The orchestrator, not knowing beans about recorders or their notation, did not specify which size to use (probably had never seen anything but a soprano) and did not notate it in the correct octave. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004
Wouldn'd it have been great if the Finale 2004 advertisement on MakeMusic's website could be made so they can be viewed by a macintosh computer. All the sound samples with soundfonts and musical playback are not compatible with macs. They have a particular talent for annoying mac people, have they? Éric Dussault My QuickTime seems to play them without any problem. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Library management
I won't even get started on the copyright implications of this exchange, except to note that they are there. John At 5:55 PM -0400 8/03/03, Eden - Lawrence D. wrote: May I call on the collective wisdom of you all? My brass quintet has stayed active since 1978. Our library of tunes has grown over the years to the tune of over 400 arrangements. We keep track of all the arrangements with a Letter/Number system. For example: A1, A2, A3...through the alphabet. Tunes are sorted by composer. I am concerned about the possibility of accidental loss of any of the folders, so we make copies of the tunes for each concert and bring only those tunes to the job. We have a group policy that originals and copies not be kept in the same place. The problem is I am getting less than 100% cooperation from the quintet membersoriginals and copies get mixed together on jobs. When an accident happens, it is my job to reprint music and this is often a time consuming task. How do other group librarians maintain the music? How do you protect against loss and still have all the tunes on hand for rehearsals? What kind of filing system do you use? In my brass quintet we only ever hand out copies of music, and the originals stay with the librarian (in our case, the horn player. I wonder if there is a built-in affinity for this in hornists, like politics in trombonists?). In his library at home, tunes are given a sequential library number (first tune to be added is 1, then 2, 3, etc. We are in the 100's by now). He used to make two index cards, one to be filed by composer in a box, the other to be filed by title in another box, alphabetically. This is a reproduction of the title and author card files in old libraries. He recently changed this to a spreadsheet-based (Excel) system with columns for index number, title, composer (last name first), arranger, style, additional instruments, source (from Porgy and Bess for example), and comments. He can search the spreadsheet instantly for any word, or sort it by composer, arranger, style or any other criteria that he thinks might be useful. He sends updated copies by email to other members of the quintet from time to time so that we can participate intelligently in discussions about repertoire and programming. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Bowing in orch parts
David Froom asked: Now that I am revising, and making a new set of parts, I am wondering if I should include the bowings in the parts? I have never done this, knowing that section leaders will do a better job than I would. However, since I have a nice set of bowings, should I include these in the string parts? You have a set of bowings courtesy of experienced string players. Use them. That a different orchestra might change them is irrelevent. However, the question of courtesy does come up. Do you need to ask permission of the orchestra (the Board, the conductor, the section leaders?) in order to use them? I don't know, but the question is worth considering. In any case, it would be a nice gesture to include a note that the bowings were done by the orchestra, or the sections leaders of the orchestra. Obviously, I have slurs and articulations. I'm just talking about the standard downbow/upbow markings. But some of those up and down marking may have broken your slurs. It's worth taking a closer look to see whether that's the case. If they do, rest assured that there was a reason for it. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Copyright for the engraving
I'm afraid, David, that in the real world any secretary who claimed such a right would be in the unemployment office the next day. A secretary is hired to do a job involving a range of services, probably with a job description that may or may not accurately reflect his/her actual duties, and likely with a set of objective standards (hah!) to measure his/her effeciency. Some of ours are worded like this: Forwards mail and telephone contacts to the correct person 90% of the time within 24 hours. Burocrats think like that! How would you like a measure like that of your skill in engraving with Finale? A secretary is not hired to produce printed output, but to perform all needed services covered by the job description. A secretary has no ownership of his/her work product, and I doubt that any lawyer would make such a claim. OK, I take that back; any lawyer will make any claim for money. This is yet another situation which is not just like engraving music. John David H. Bailey replied: Well, a secretary hired to provide correctly typed and printed output can very well claim that the Word files are her property. The files themselves are merely one aspect of the process, and if she isn't hired to provide the steps of her process, then they remain outside the realm of the contract. Her contract would be to return the originals and the printed final copy, and that is all she could legally be required to provide. Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 12.07.2003 19:45 Uhr, Christopher BJ Smith wrote Yes. The composer already has the MUSIC; what he is asking for is the Finale date, which is work that the engraver has done, kind of like asking a typist for the proofs. He can't have the file unless he pays for it. Well, a secretary asked to type a Word Document couldn't claim that the Word documents itself were here property, could she? Granted, if it involved graphic work that is more than just typing texts, that may be a different situation, but in this case all that's asked for is the music data, not the art work. Johannes -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Band Publishers and fixing parts
Richard Huggins wrote: Well, actually...if the song is a copyrighted song an arrangement of it cannot be copyrighted by anyone other than the owner of the copyright. Not quite true, as far as I know. The copyright owner may, indeed grant permission to the arranger to copyright the arrangement in his own name. It would, of course, be subject to negotiation and to financial arrangments, but in fact it appears to be done all the time. So if a song says something like Arr. (c) Copyright 2003 by Acme Publishing it is likely the song was public domain. Doesn't follow, although of course it is possible. It could be that the original copyright owner did grant permission but did not insist that the original copyright information be included. That is where searching the performing rights databases, while necessary, can get very frustrating. Thus Acme Publishing is, in fact, the owner of the copyright as it pertains to that *arrangement.* The song itself remains PD and anyone else can arrange it, too, and copyright their own arrangement. Quite true, if in fact the original IS in the public domain. Publishers do it differently as regards copyright notices of arrangements of copyrighted material. When it's a publisher publishing an arrangement of a song he does not own, but has reprint permission for, in most, if not all, cases, said publisher adheres to whatever copyright wording the owner of the copyright specifies when the owner grants reprint permission. Often there is no mention of Arr. at all. Right. And in a number of the band medleys our Community Band plays, there is such a proliferation of very specifically worded copyright notices for each and every song that they take up to half or even more of the first page in the parts. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Copyright for the engraving
Johannes Gebauer wrote: This is a question which may be one of opinion more than of law, but I am still curious as to what other people think: When I do a contracted job where I engrave something for a publisher, how much do I own of it? I think most would probably agree that if I engrave with my own settings, those settings are in fact my property, and the publisher cannot make me give them away unless this was specifically contracted. I think you will get rather opposite opinions on this, Johannes, and of course those of us in the U.S. are most familiar with U.S. copyright law, although we realize that there are differences in other countries' laws. Under U.S. law, I think the answer to your question turns on what the contract actually says. Was the contracted job to provide engraved pages ready for publication, or to provide Finale files? If it was not specified, then the matter will probably have to be settled in court. If the contract was to provide camera-ready pages, that is all the publisher is entitled to get, and from your story it appears that the pages have not and will not be provided per contract. Therefore the engraver is not entitled to payment. If the contract was to provide Finale files ready to produce camera-ready copy, the engraver has the obligation to produce them. Under U.S. copyright law, the engraver would have no claim on the original music in any case. The work was (or should have been) done For Hire. And U.S. law does not create any copyright whatsoever in page layout. When you say if I engrave with my own settings, the meaning is confusing. If you mean that you have arranged the music and not just engraved it, then under U.S. law you would still have no claim because the work is still being done For Hire, and the ownership of any derivative work based on the original copyrighted work remains the property of the original copyright owner unless the contract specifies otherwise. If you mean by with my own settings the Finale choices you have made in order to produce a specific appearance on the page, my opinion is still that under U.S. law you would have no rights to claim ownership of the product because, again, it was done For Hire and page appearance cannot be copyrighted. Two comments on my opinion, however, First, this may be quite different under EU or German copyright law, since at least some European laws DO confer copyright on page layout. Second, there are those on this list who will disagree strongly with my opinion and who believe, although I have not been convinced by any arguments as yet, that the Finale files belong strictly to the engraver, just as a photographer's negatives belong strictly to the photographer. The problem with that logic is that the situations are quite different. Arguing that engraving music is just like a photographer's negatives, or just like the rights inherent in a computer program, or just like anything else is unconvincing unless it can be backed up by reference to actual law and court interpretations of law. In the legal profession, as in politics, your files would be considered work product, necessary to your doing the job you were actually contracted to do, and we all know how tightly some politicians stonewall any attempt to produce their work product. Same thing with legal matters, although in that case there is actual protection for the lawyer-client relationship, which is NOT the case with politicians. There are cases even now working their way through the appelate process that may settle parts of this question, but even that will not necessarily end up being just like Finale files. How about the data of the music? Ie, can the publisher ask for a Finale file, which is stripped of settings (ie by copying the music into a new document without libraries)? Or asked the other way round, can the engraver refuse to give such a file? If this was not covered in the contract, it may need to be taken to court. My (strictly personal) opinion is that the data of the music is, in fact the music rendered into a different kind of data storage from pen on paper, and as such is a copy of the original which, following my own logic, is still the property of the original copyright owner unless the contract specifies otherwise. Here is the story in short: Composer asked engraver to engrave some of his music to be published by the composer. Half-way through the project the two fell out badly. Engraver refuses to continue with the project, composer refuses to pay. The engraver emailed PDFs, but these PDFs are not ready for publishing. Composer agreed to pay only if the Finale files were sent. Again, the contract should have specified each side's obligations. Hissy fits belong in arbitration or in court. They're both trying to rewrite the original agreement on the fly, and in their own favor. Can't be done! Engraver thinks this hurts [h]is intellectual property. What intellectual
Re: [Finale] Band Publishers and fixing parts
Christopher BJ Smith wrote: Really, I don't think any publisher cares if some band director makes his own arrangement to play with his own band. In fact, since any additional performance of a work makes them more money through performance rights, they LIKE people making arrangements. Just two small caveats. (1) They probably wouldn't sue for relatively minor adjustments (permitted under Fair Use, as I have pointed out), as long as you do own legally purchased copies of their music, although state MENC contest rules might be less forgiving. (2) The Fair Use Guidelines specifically allow performance without payment of performance royalties by non-profit educational institutions when the performances are in the normal course of instruction, so school concerts would NOT generate performance income. However, the publishers agreed to that exemption when they signed off on Fair Use. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Band Publishers and fixing parts
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is sometimes difficult to find out who the copyright owner is. When you come right down to it, it's the copyright owner's responsibility to provide that specific information at least in the form of a copyright notice. No, it's not legally required since January 1, 1978, but it's a foolish owner who fails to provide it or to require its inclusion in the copyright notice of any arrangement. Sometimes all you can do is make a good-faith effort to comply, document what you have done, and see whether the copyright owner pops out of the woodwork. Failure to provide you with that information would make your defence much easier in case of an infringement suit. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Pedal markings
Michael Edwards wrote, as part of a well-presented opinion: I use pedalling to a degree of precision that I feel will exclude those styles of pedalling that I don't consider suit the type of music I'm writing. I would probably count proper pedalling on piano as being in a category along with detailed bowing for strings, detailed registrations for organ, and writing for harp: provide the detail if you have the knowledge and background to to do, but don't try to do it yourself if you don't! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Band Publishers and fixing parts
Tom Jordan wrote: What are publishers doing to address the creation of parts to match student band personnel? Depends entirely on the publisher. But if you have a particular situation, you can always call or write for permission to do what you need to do, given that you do own legally-purchased music. This has come as a personal alarm to me. Do the publishers actually grant any license to that junior high band with 12 tenor saxes and 1 trombone to duplicate or manufacture a transposed part for these always wacky combinations in student groups? These ensembles are supposed to have original parts for contests. State MEA's have those provisions in their regulations. Again, get a letter of permission from the publisher. However, there is a provision in the U. S. Fair Use Guidelines that specifically says that it is all right to simplify or edit legally purchased music, and that is precisely what you would be doing. You might want to discuss this with your state's MENC officers. (I can't tell from your email address whether you are in the U.S., and the rules will be different in other countries.) And at the same time, I am reading about band directors acknowledging the necessity of Finale for fixing their music! Copyright guidelines rears its ugly head once again. I want the copyrights protected. But should a publisher be granting a license, like software manufacturers do, so performance groups can legally prepare the necessary parts for performance? The copyright owner--most often a publisher--may grant any request you make, or may not. But you have to ask. And the Fair Use Guidelines give you leeway, but may or may not be enough for the folks who run your contests. Best of luck! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Bowed string instrument
Hi all, I'm working on a contrabass part. In several slurred passages, I have to input bowing indications, slurs, articulations and fingerings on down stem notes. 1 Do you think that the right vertical input above the note is at first articulation then fingering inside slurs and bowing outside ? 2 How can I proceed with accent articulation on the first note of a slurred passage ? 3 On just one down stem note, I have marcato sign, harmonic (circle), fingering and fermata ?? Thanks in advance for your responses. Pierre. I admit to not knowing the rules, but as a player I'd like to see: Articulation closest to the note or stem; Fingering next, either above or below but consistently above is better, and the harmonic sign is a fingering, ususally above the finger number; Fingering can go inside slurs, yes, if there's room; Bowing, always above the staff if possible and above slurs; Fermata farthest away, above or below, but above if possible. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Auto-Hyphenation?
At 7:04 PM -0400 6/17/03, timothy price wrote: [...] And inevitably (oops, in- ev- it- a- bly) you will ... Actually, it's in-ev-i-ta-bly (:) --Richard But a singer would sing, I-ne-vi-ta-bly Christopher BJ Smith replied: Irrelevant, IMHO. Singers who read English will know how to pronounce it properly, and the choral director will help in the ambiguous cases, and it will be sung somewhat differently by choruses than by soloists in any case. In the interests of preserving a literate English population, I exhort you to use correct hyphenation. More to the point, I would not recognize the word so hyphenized, and since pronunciation depends on recognition (as pointed out in reference to a word broken at a page turn) I would not automatically pronounce it correctly. I've done rather a lot of transcribing from recordings, and guided arranging classes through the same process, and the notation of language is not language itself, just as the notation of music is not the music itself. The map is not the territory. There are layers and layers of subtle differences that cannot be notated, and trying to jury-rig such a notation (which students often do) ends up giving you garbage that no longer communicates. Try transcribing a Sinatra tune, if this doesn't make sense to you! Sometimes a consonant clearly falls on one beat and the vowel following it on another. It's called style. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Alan Pollack's Beatles Page
On Sunday, June 15, 2003, at 08:30 AM, David H. Bailey wrote: Very interesting! I happened to see what he had to say about You Know My Name, Look Up The Number and I wonder what any of the Beatles themselves would think of his analysis -- I know that it certainly was way more involved than I ever considered when I heard the song. But in typical musicologist manner, he does find some interesting links that I wonder whether the Beatles had in mind when they recorded the song. Hey, David, let's not insult the musicologists! This is music theorist mumbo-jumbo, and we let them do it because it keeps them happy and off the streets! A musicologist would be much more interested in the Beatles' influence on their culture and vice versa, and there's probably a dissertation waiting to be written on the unexpected longevity of their work and the question of quality that implies. Musicologists tend to be interested in music as it fits into its particular culture, theorists in music as isolated artifacts. And yes, both kinds of scholar tend to find things in music that the composers might not have thought about at all, but they're still there. You can easily create structures that have all kinds of inner and outer relationships even if you don't know the terminology to name them. Country songwriters do it all the time. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Tunes no-one plays:was Doubling
Brad Beyenhof wrote: This can be traced back to the days of plainchant, in which a device called hocket (French for hiccup) was essentially a melody passed around between lines. Right idea, but it was used in polyphonic music, not plainchant. (The term and practice in plainchant would be antiphonal chanting, which is rather different.) It was described by Wlater Odington (c. 1316). The main difference between, e.g., this and Tchaikovsky is that in hocket when voice one passes the melody to voice two, voice one remains silent instead of continuing in its own counterpoint. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Doubling for Pops Orchestra Wind Players
Tim Thompson wrote: Yeah, that too! And then there is the fraction of a percent who enjoy the Eb alto...:-) [meaning clarinet] There's been past discussion of this on the Bandchat list, and a good many directors don't think the instrument is worth the trouble. My feeling is otherwise. Those who don't like the instrument probably have never assigned it to one of their best players, or to a player who works hard enough to master the instrument properly. In a band situation I feel it is a necessary component of the extended clarinet choir. But to say the instrument itself is inferior is simply silly. Of course we have an alto player in our community band, and she does just fine. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Doubling for Pops Orchestra Wind Players
Extreme doubling is becoming increasingly common in the jazz world. I know several first-rate saxophone players in New York who have not just the standard doubles (flute and clarinet) but oboe and English horn as well. No, Charles Pillow wouldn't win the audition for the English Horn chair in the Met Orchestra, but he certainly doesn't embarrass himself, either. He's the best double-reed doubler in the jazz world right now, but there are lots of others who have been getting their double-reed chops up to par. I must admit it was somewhat surreal to go to my first BMI Jazz Composers Worskshop reading session and see the sax players breaking out all of these double reed instruments -- and playing them well! - Darcy As long ago as the '70s, Indiana offered a degree in woodwind doubling. Someone on that degree studied one instrument with a faculty big name each semester, and the other instruments with grad assistants. The fastest-moving recorder class my wife ever taught there was 4 or 5 doubling majors who discovered an entire woodwind family that they couldn't play yet! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale to Powerpoint?
From PowerPoint, just go to Insert Picture From File... and find the TIFF you've exported. I'm not certain that that's the correct path to insert, but I'm sure you can figure it out if it's not. Brad Beyenhof Two things to be aware of. Once you've imported it, it can be resized on the screen (unless TIFF is fundamentally different from the JPEG and GIFF files I mostly use). The drawback is that the screen is set up for landscape, like a computer monitor, while the page of music will be portrait. You'll have to experiment to see whether it will be readable. And of course the room needs to be dark, while the pianist needs to be lit. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Doubling for Pops Orchestra Wind Players
Okay, In the pops orchestra project I'm currently working on, there's a piece I'm arranging where I'd like to use a lot of low wind instruments. I mean, a lot. The winds are 3/3/3/3. If I could get away with it, I would probably want three contrabassoons and three contrabass clarinets. Or maybe a contrabass clarinet, a contra-alto clarinet, and a bass clarinet. (Don't ask why, it's just right for this particular piece.) Yeah, I know this is almost certainly not a realistic request for this sort of situation. But what would be a reasonable request? I know that (for instance) it says right in the timpanist's contract that he plays *only* timpani, and cannot be asked to play any other percussion instruments. I am told this is usual. So is it usual for the first (and second of three?) bassoonist(s), and/or the first (and second of three?) clarinetist(s) to have written into their contracts that they can't be forced to play the low winds? I can, of course, ask the contractor about this (and I will), but I don't want to bother asking for something totally impossible. What about this: 2 bass clarinets/1 contrabass clarinet/1 bassoon/2 contrabassons? Still ridiculous/unreasonable? - Darcy There are actually 3 considerations here. The first is the contract issue you mention--which would not have occurred to me because I deal mostly with college and community ensembles. But yes, in the best orchestras the principal wind players do not like to double any other instrument, and that may very well be written into their contracts. Not that they couldn't double, mind you, but they are specialists. The second is a question of availability. I'm sure there are plenty of places where simply finding 3 contrabassoons would be impossible. Heck, you can write for 12 English horns if you want to, but would anyone consider performing it? And the contra clarinets that may be available are likely to be plastic band instruments, not the high quality instruments played by most orchestra musicians. The third is the question of expense. In theory any clarinetist should be able to play any size in the clarinet family, same with saxes, same with flutists, oboists and bassoonists. But don't fool yourself. The parts may all be fingered alike, but every instrument in a family is a different instrument, and it will only be played WELL by someone who has put considerable time and effort into mastering it. Bass clarinet is NOT just a big soprano clarinet, and a soprano clarinetist holding a bass clarinet will NOT sound like an accomplished bass clarinetist. Same thing with Eb clarinet. Which means that the orchestra will likely have to hire additional players who do own and specialize in the bass instruments. At the very least, if the normal players do agree to double and can find the instruments to do it with, they will have to be paid for those doubles under any union contract. That's the long answer. The short answer is that sure, you can ask for what you want, but I'd suggest exploring the potential problems carefully before you commit yourself to doing so. You mentioned the contractor. That suggests that this is not a regularly organized orchestra, but will be a pickup orchestra. That actually simplifies things, because there will be no no-doubling clauses to worry about, but coming up with the instruments and the players good enough to play them then becomes the contractor's problem. Then again, I cracked up, reading through Henry Mancini's orchestration book, when he was working his way through the flute section. He said something like, The bass flute is a wonderful instrument, but it is very rare and not always available. Here's an example where I used four. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: Backwards compatibility
On Friday, Jun 6, 2003, at 18:10 America/Vancouver, David H. Bailey wrote: Randy Stokes, senior developer, IS a musician. I have no idea about any of the rest. Now where did that page of jokes about trombonists go... Philip Aker Must have been stolen by a violist. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New Finale release
Perhaps, given the tardiness in making Finale fully OSX compliant, it is the Mac market which is the drag these days. I'm sure! I know I skipped the 2003 upgrade for that very reason. The only reason we upgraded at my institution last year was that we converted to a site license, added a few seats, and got the upgrade out of the deal. We have about a 60/40 split Windows to Mac, and we're definitely buying the 2004 upgrade because Finale is the last thing keeping us from going to X completely. And of course, I will make the upgrade myself. My sense is that many Mac users held off this last time, and will make up for it with 2004. I would be surprised if any mac users don't do this upgrade. Of course, there's no telling how many jumped ship over the whole thing. Tim Well, every situation is probably different. In our case, (1) all university students are required to have computers meeting certain minimum standards and a basic, useful suite of software, and (2) the music and art departments require that they be Macs (and Music pushes very hard recommending notebooks so they will come to class with the students). We were all-Finale from about 1998, when new Freshmen were required to have Finale and we started to phase out Mosaic. Fast forward to last summer. Since Macs were required, all our incoming Freshmen were going to have OS X. Since Finale dropped the ball on this, we had to make a decision, fast, and the decision was to require last year's Freshmen to have Sibelius. That means that Finale is now being phased out. Our hand was forced by Coda's decision to wait on OS X compatibility, but we are NOT going to go back to Finale for the foreseeable future. They missed their window of opportunity big time. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
Richard Huggins asked: In the end, does any conductor see enough of a given order that he or she is thrown by a new one, or is it merely a matter of reorienting one's mind and soon no longer an issue? I'm not asking that rhetorically; I don't know enough about classical scores to know if there's such a thing as a score order that is seen far more than any other. Yes, there is, and it developed for historical reasons. (I'm partly imagining this, but it makes sense to me.) The Pre-Classical orchestra was either strings alone or strings plus a pair of oboes and a pair of horns. They were scored with winds on top and strings below. Every 18th century addition was an addition to that layout. One or two flutes played generally higher than the oboes, and were notated above them. One or two bassoons played lower than the oboes, and were notated below them. When clarinets were added in Mozart's time, they were placed in the intermediate range between oboes and bassoons. Similarly, when trumpets (almost always with timpani serving as the bass of the trumpets, as it had at least as far back as the 16th century), they were placed below the horns, probably because of the inclusion of the timpani. I don't believe I've seen a Classical score with trumpets above horns, although some may exist. That's the score order a conductor expects to see because it was used by Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, and everybody else as instruments were added. The placement of trombones and tuba, ophiclied, or cimbasso below the trumpets was perfectly logical, and placing them above the timpani was, too, because the timps were no longer considered part of the trumpet section. When Turkish percussion was added for special effect, it was logical to place it with the timpani. When double-stave instruments like harp, piano, or organ were added, they were generally placed just above the strings (although there is a single-line organ part with figured bass for the Brahms Requiem, and it is placed at the bottom). Solo instruments were almost always placed above the strings. So were chorus or vocal solo lines. That's what you find in Bach and in opera scores for the most part. That's what a conductor expects to see, because s/he has studied these scores a lot and is used to seeing it. Certainly you can use some other order if you want, just as you can print the score non-transposed, but if you do either you will not be giving the average conductor what is expected. (Yes, I know some folks really REALLY want their scores in concert pitch, and I'm not saying you're wrong, but it would throw me for a loop. When I look at a horn or clarinet or sax part I know what that note sounds like on the instrument, as notated.) Where score order has loosened up and started forming new acceptable score orders is in the band and wind ensemble world. There's confusion about where to put the bassoons in relation to the other woodwinds, and I've seen several different plans in use. Horns are almost always below the trumpets for all the logical reasons that have been mentioned. The score order I've fallen into the habit of using basically groups instruments in families: Piccolo Flutes Oboe Bassoon (treated as the bass of this orchestral grouping) Eb clarinet Bb clarinets Alto Clarinet Bass Clarinet EEb Contra Clarinet BBb Contra Clarinet (well, I can dream, can't I?) Alto Saxes Tenor Sax Bari Sax Bass Sax (yes, our community band has one!) Trumpets (not cornets because our band has only one cornet player) Horns Trombones and Bass Trombone Euphonium Tuba Mallet Percussion Other Percussion and Toys Other schemes are also used, of course. Now, if I were adding Chorus, Vocal Soloists, Keyboard, or Strings, where would I put them? Probably in the middle, between the woodwinds and the brass. Full string section could go at the bottom, as in an orchestral score. Just celli and basses probably just below the euphonium and tubas. Big band jazz scores use the same general layout, with saxes/woodwinds on top, trumpets in the middle, trombones on the bottom, and the pre-printed score pages I've used generally have the rhythm section below the brass. Add tuba and it should probably go below the trombones. Add horn or mellophonium, between the trumpets and trombones. Bottom line: People will be happiest with your work if you give them what they expect, or in some cases, what makes logical sense if you have an unusual instrumentation. In fact that's what started this thread, a score with non-standard instrumentation. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Dancer tempos (previously: Notational conventions innew and old music)
Recordings of Broadway shows almost always have extensive cuts in the dance numbers -- they leave just enough to be tasty and to handle any needed modulations. Oftentimes, the composer of a show doesn't even write the dance numbers -- they're worked out by an arranger as the choreography progresses. What you get in the rental parts is probably whatever the dance numbers wound up being at the first production of the show. Aaron. All quite true, and for a very simple reason. All the classic shows (at least after WW II) were recorded for release on LP. A 12 LP holds 15 minutes per side comfortably, up to perhaps 30 minutes if an engineer monitors the mastering very carefully. That's a MAXIMUM of 60 minutes of recorded sound from a show that lasts maybe 2 1/2 to 3 hours. The dialog isn't recorded, of course, but beyond that the first things to be cut were the dance numbers or dance breaks within numbers. King I runs just a bit over 3 hours, but the movie runs about 2:20. To accomplish that, they omitted at least 4 very important character-building numbers from the movie. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Dancer tempos (previously: Notational conventions innew and old music)
At 07:05 PM 6/3/2003, John Howell wrote: All quite true, and for a very simple reason. All the classic shows (at least after WW II) were recorded for release on LP. A 12 LP holds 15 minutes per side comfortably, up to perhaps 30 minutes if an engineer monitors the mastering very carefully. That's a MAXIMUM of 60 minutes of recorded sound from a show that lasts maybe 2 1/2 to 3 hours. The dialog isn't recorded, of course, but beyond that the first things to be cut were the dance numbers or dance breaks within numbers. I hadn't thought of it this way -- I agree that this is most likely true in terms of *why* the numbers are cut or omitted, but I think it's also true that the dance numbers were thought of as more mutable, less intrinsic to the show. As I mentioned before, they were written to fit the needs of the choreographer, and often not by the composer of the show. Aaron. I wonder if anyone has published a study of how this was done. From the level of detail in the script, I would say that Rodgers and Hammerstein were very heavily involved in almost every aspect of their shows--as they should have been as highly competent professionals. I instictively doubt that they simply told their choreographers to put something good in here, whatever you feel like. After all, while Rodgers may not have done his own orchestrations, I suspect that he wrote the piano score in very great detail. Robert Russell Bennett is credited for orchestrations, not arrangements. Of course it's also quite true that there was often an additional credit in the Playbill to someone for Additional dance orchestrations. I suspect that dances were worked out in rather close collaboration between RH and their choreographers--whom they had picked in the first place as creative people who were capable of creating what they wanted in their shows. As to performances being done today, more than half a century later, of course we all know that stage directors and choreographers and musical directors are going to make changes or cuts for any number of reasons. That's theater. And in community theater you have to take into consideration the training and ability of your dancers and of your choreographer. But every community production really is a revival in the sense that you're sent the original script, the original orchestrations (probably still being printed from the same onionskins and with the same copyists' errors that were copied 50 years ago), and most importantly your audience comes and fills your seats because they are familiar with the shows and love them. Set King I in the 1960s Soviet Union and you've lost the entire point of the show, aside from the fact that you're breaking copyright because so much would have to be rewritten. You could do it and write a new show, as Lenny did in turning Romeo and Juliet into West Side Story, but then it's a new show. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ooooo.... Shiny new G4.
Are you sure you're not trying to put it into a FireWire (IEEE 1394) port? They look remarkably similar to USB ports except are slightly different in shape. You are absolutely right, Brad. You must be psychic. It fits quite nicely when you put it in the right place. Crystal Premo I just checked. The icon for the USB port is like Neptune's trident. The icon for firewire is like a vibrating cymbal. I assume that these are universal. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notational conventions in new and old music (previously: Do house styles...).
David H. Bailey wrote (re: dialects in spoken language): Did it matter how he decided? Could you tell if he were correct or not? Did the speech you got from the IPA really sound like fluid conversational speech? Could you turn it into fluid conversational speech without hearing native speakers? Would anybody who didn't hear the original speakers be able to tell whether you were right or wrong? [snip] One thing I am fairly certain of regarding Daniel Day Lewis -- the dialogue was written using modern English and carrying some sort of descriptive terms like mock 19th-century Irish immigrant accent. I am sure it wasn't written out using diacritical phonetic IPA pronunciation guidelines. No, of course not. But the analogy with musical style falls down in one way. Dialects are something that are taken very seriously by serious actors and studied carefully (and listed on their resumes). It's a skill they need and a skill they develop. The average guy on the street who tries to imitate a dialect that's unfamiliar produces a parody, but for actors it's part of their bag of tricks. My father-in-law was a super salesman with a musical ear who did pick up on local language patterns as he traveled around. He didn't exactly make a study of them, but it was part of HIS bag of tricks. The musical analog would be someone who seriously studies many different styles and becomes fluent in them all. And there are people who do exactly that. But those people might not end up in our bands, orchestras, or other ensembles that attract classical players. We have more than a few students at this school who do explore jazz playing or singing or improv if they are clasically trained, or legit style if they are jazz trained, and they are at least starting this learning process, which I find very healthy. Doesn't this suggest that we're making some pretty large mistakes in our system of music education? John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Bowings and slurs and staccato dots...
On 30 May 2003 at 18:02, John Howell wrote: David W. Fenton wrote (much snipped): Slurring, or hooking (i.e., two separate bows going in the same direction)? Dance movements are *certainly* a place where you definitely need lots of compensating bow. I wrote: Good distinction between slurring and hooking, two of an almost infinite number of ways the bow can be used for subtle articulation. David: Isn't hooking standard string terminology? My viol teacher has always used it, and I could swear I've heard it elsewhere. Yes, it's standard. I suspect that any string player except a beginner would know what you mean. Well, my undergrad degree is in piano performance. I play the viola da gamba. Would you trust my bowings for modern strings? I'll trust anyone's as long as they make sense, both in terms of string technique and common practice and in terms of complementing the music. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notational conventions in new and old music(previously: Do house styles...).
Darcy wrote: I suppose this would depend on whether you wanted a parody of how jazz musicians play eighth notes (which is what you would get with 12/8 or [worse] dotted eighth-sixteenth notation), or wanted some actual reasonable facsimile of idiomatic swing. (The former may well be what you want, given what you write below -- I just thought I ought to point out that a genuine swing feel is *nothing like* 12/8.) I have to agree completely. It isn't just the length of the notes, it's how the anticipations are accented, which notes are hit hard and which are lightened, which notes are played short and which long. That's all part of swing feel and style, and traditional musicians just don't have that style internalized. The same thing is true of French baroque notes inegals, and the lilt a good traditional or Irish band puts into the music. You either feel the style or you don't, and trying to fake it through notational tricks won't make you feel it, so it can come out as a parody unless you're willing to spend major time reeducating your performers. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Do house styles override what composer wrote?
On 30 May 2003 at 2:12, Michael Edwards wrote: [David W. Fenton:] On 29 May 2003 at 8:10, Michael Edwards wrote: I guess the situation is a bit difficult for older music, where notation has changed sufficiently that older music might be difficult for modern people to read. I suppose we have to accept standardizing there. I have to chuckle, because in my line of work Bach and Mozart are late! Actually, I would entirely disagree with that assertion. If you're going to play older music, you really need to learn to read the older notation. And this I would entirely agree with, but in our musical culture it doesn't happen in normal teaching. Late 13th-early 14th century mensural notation is quite easy to read, but only if you've studied it in pretty fine detail. It provided the basis for common practice notation, but it doesn't look anything like it. And any singer can learn to read chant notation in about 10 minutes flat. Well, the question here is: Does the changed notation convey exactly the same things? In regards to clefs, it certainly does. Not in early music. One of the reasons for choosing particular clefs, going back to Guido in the 11th century and his movable use of the letters C and F, is to keep the range of the piece within the confines of the staff. And because that is true, a glance at the clef at least through the end of the 16th century gives you a quick and almost always accurate idea of the range of that part. When an editor substitutes a modern clef, that information is no longer given. Which is why an incipit is always a good idea when transcribing early music. Now, choosing clefs is important, as it can have an effect on how easy things are to read. In a viola or cello part, you'll use C clefs and G clefs and F clefs appropriate to the circumstances, and the editor had better do a good job of choosing exactly when the switches between clefs occur. For a modern player, absolutely. And you have to make your editorial choices while keeping in mind the level of players you are writing for. Most high school cellist, bassoonists, and trombonists, unless they have studied pretty advance stuff privately, have never seen a tenor clef and will simply stop playing if you use one. But my own pet peave is viola parts that switch into treble clef when there's no real need to, or that switch back and forth between treble and alto until you can't keep track of where you are. Played some Dvorak like that recently. However, in cases where the music is pre-tonal and the accidentals are *not* repeated, you need to be careful what you convey in your edition! I'm not necessarily advocating using the old notation, but you definitely need to indicate to the performer that something else may be going on. Take that back to the 15th, 16th, and early 17th century and you find another problem. Much music was copied either in separate partbooks or as separate parts on facing pages, and it did not use barlines. Putting this music into score notation and imposing barlines on it destroys the independence of the individual lines in this kind of music, and obscures rather than illuminates the differences between the phrasing in the different parts, exactly what makes this music come to life. And in this same music it is often unclear when accidentals, written or ficta, should be repeated. In fact, it isn't unusual to find a written accidental as the penultimate note in a cadence but discover that that accidental needs to be anticipated in the ornamental figuration approaching the cadence. Yes, it would probably require a note to explain that you want it interpreted as an on-beat appoggiatura, instead of a before-the-beat grace note (grace notes as we conceive of them did not even exist in Mozart's music, BTW, though there were before-the-beat ornamental notes in some cases), In the case of Mozart's use of appogiaturas in what will be played properly as 4 16th notes, his use of the appoggiatura does convey information that writing it out would destroy. An appoggiatura not only comes on the beat, but it is STRESSED more than the beat would normally be. Yes, the modern player has to be taught that, but once taught he can get usefull information from that appoggiatura. And that makes the larger point: the notation serves the musical style and if you don't understand the musical style, seemingly neutral notational changes may very well misrepresent the music the composer was attempting to convey. Amen, brother! That's why 19th century musicians thought Palestrina's music was slow and draggy; they couldn't imagine using whole notes and breves to notate lively tempos, but that's exactly what they did. Nobody said transcription is easy, or at least nobody who has ever tried it seriously! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL
Re: [Finale] Bowings and slurs and staccato dots...
David W. Fenton asked: Do modern string players recognize phrasing at any level but bowings? Of course, but I would choose different wording. Any musical player who has learned to do it will recognize and play phrasing without a roadmap. More capable players will recognize it at several levels at once. That's called musicianship, and it's something I try very hard to develop in my students. But it does not require the use of slurs to indicate those phrasings; in fact that would so clutter the music that it would be unreadable. Slurs are bowing instructions. I also play viola da gamba, and I understand exactly what you mean about both the bow and the musical style, but I've NEVER been aware of any tendency in 19th century music to make a fetish out of slurring everything. I will admit that when I ask my (modern) string players to follow the kinds of bowings specifically described in 17th and 18th century string manuals, like taking care to start every bar with a downbow in a dancelike movement (which does require some slurring, actually), they are uncomfortable doing it, but that isn't because they want to slur everything. It's because they've been (badly) trained to take the bowing as it comes rather than using it to shape phrases. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Double-dotted notes
On Sun, 25 May 2003, Mark D. Lew wrote: I'm curious to know which terminology is used in Canada. Does it match the United States or Britain? We use half, quarter, etc., but will stoop to crotchets if obliged to work with visitors who subscribe to arcane nomenclatures. Philip Aker This is not the only area where different systems exist, of course. My wife is well trained in Kodaly methodology and uses movable Do in the classroom, but she's had at least a couple of students who grew up in places where fixed Do was taught--one from Argentina, I think, and another from Israel. Once she figures out the reason for the communication problem, she can speak their language and translate for them. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Changing key sigs without courtesy naturals - a goodidea?
At 1:12 AM -0800 5/27/03, Mark D. Lew wrote: At 9:01 AM 05/25/03, Christopher BJ Smith wrote: It's my understanding that cancelling outgoing key signatures with naturals is archaic, kind of like separate beaming of eighths on each syllable was popular a century ago. I never do it. It is my understanding, too, that canceling outgoing key signatures is an older standard, and the modern standard is to not cancel them -- but I wouldn't go so far as to use the word archaic, which to me suggests several centuries old. I would guess that the new tradition is not much more than onea century old, if even that. I could be wrong, but the change I think I've seen between late 19th century orchestral engraving and 20th century engraving is not a change in whether to cancel accidentals, but in where to put the cancelation. Cancelling before the bar line gives a warning; cancelling after the barline sometimes makes a real mess that the eye can't grasp intuitively. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] diamond breve notehead?
Does anyone know of a font that includes a breve diamond notehead? (ie a diamond hugged by 2 short vertical lines either side) Dorothy Ker Interesting request. I've never come across that combination in either historical use or modern use. Historically the breve was notated as a simple square note, black through the 14th century, becoming white (outlined) during the 15th. Flanking an oval semibreve (modern whole note) with little vertical lines is a modern convention for a breve (double whole note) value. Never have I seen both a diamond note AND the little lines. John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT. Strauss Horn Concerto
Keith in OZ asked: Any of you hornists- (or others) know if the Strauss Horn Concerto (#1) in Eb Opus 11. is arranged for Concert Band? (Good arrg't please!) If so, where do I get it? If not- how would I be with copyright in arranging it myself? Well, it was composed in 1883, but Richard did not die until 1949. Under U.S. law, it would be public domain. I don't know about Australian law. In a country with life-plus-50-years instead of a set copyright period it would have entered the public domain in 1999. But under life-plus-70-years it would be under copyright until 2019. (And yes, it could be PD in one country and under copyright in another with different laws. I don't believe that the laws of the original copyrighting country apply, except in that country.) In other words, it depends! John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] OT. Strauss Horn Concerto
I had understood the opposite to be true -- that as long as a work remains under copyright in the country in which the original copyright was registered, it remains under copyright in all countries who are signatories to the Berne Convention. If I'm mistaken, I hope someone can point us toward documentation that will clarify this always thorny issue! Jim O'Briant Yeah, that's what I don't know enough about to comment. I do know that in the past, there have been plenty of times when U.S. copyright had a shorter term than copyright in another country, and music entered the PD in the U.S. while it remained copyrighted in other countries. What I don't know is whether Berne or another treaty changed that situation. I trust that the expertise on this list will straighten us out on the question. John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Arabic (was TAN: Czech)
At 8:07 PM 03/13/03, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: This is a lot of fun to talk about, especially when considering how hard it is to transcribe material for singing. I have some choral scores that used some bizarre vocalization scheme in parallel with the actual English words ... I forget what it was called, but I believe it has mercifully died out... Anybody remember it? Those are the tone syllables developed and used by Fred Waring. I learned them from my mother, who learned them from Fred. He saw no reason to allow the words in choral singing to be less than crystal clear, so his goal was to have his singers pronounce every sound in every syllable and do it simultaneously. That's a goal that all singers and choral conductors should share, but obviously all do not. Fred simply worked out a phonetic way of coaching singers who had not worked directly with him. The tone syllables do the exact job they were intended to do, and do it very well, although they do look rather strange to the uninitiated. I still use the principles with my singers, although not the tone syllables themselves. Robert Shaw insisted on the same degree of accuracy, although he did not use the tone syllables either, and Shaw started as an assistant to Waring. John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN Blessing or Curse in disguise?
Andrew Stiller wrote: My concern is with revivals of classic musicals (the only ones worth attending, in my recent experience) which were written for full string sections that are just not to be heard on Broadway anymore. I went to see _On the Town_ when it was revived a while back, and was shocked to hear Bernstein's string parts handled by a synth. I felt, and still feel, seriously abused by the experience, and in hindsight feel I should have demanded my money back. There's no excuse for the synthesizers, but supply and demand, profit and loss rule theater just like any other business. The AFofM may be fighting a losing battle, and we'll all feel the loss. However, I'd take issue with the full string sections idea, even though every show has different imperatives. We're preparing for our annual summer musical production, The King I this summer. The Rodgers Hammerstein Library website has an awful lot of good information, but one notation about the instrumentation really gave me pause. There are 5 violin parts: Violin A with divisi, Violin B with divisi, Violin C without divisi. And in the orchestra for the original Broadway production there were precisely 5 violins! In effect, one on a part, with unison always an option, of course. There were also 2 violas and 2 cellos, with divisi in each part. Again, one on a part. Perhaps we're too used to the lush sound of the Hollywood orchestras in the film versions of these shows, and perhaps they hired a few more players for the Original Cast recordings, but I'm now wondering whether one on a part was the standard in Broadway pits. John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: Swing indication
Darcy wrote: Depending on the player, the accents may fool you into thinking that the rhythm is more triplety than it really is, but if you really listen carefully, you will realize that Chuck ain't lying when he tells you that rhythmically, continuous eighth notes in jazz are played very much like Bach. Actually more like Rameau or Marais. There's the same interpretive problem in baroque, and especially French baroque, music. We know they used inegality when it was appropriate to the tempo and style. But the usual approach is exactly what Darcy argues against, turning each duplet into a triplet feel. There are LOTS of other ways to make two notes inegal, and sometimes the most musically effective way is to lighten and shorten the second note in each duplet, making them inegal in weight rather than in time. And I suspect that this is more what good jazz players do, playing eighths in time but not with equal weight. Richard Rodgers, in the Rodgers and Hart days, wrote a lot of dotted 8th-16th figures, and so did other popular songwriters. He may have intended them to be sung accurately but square. But when the songs became jazz standards the players softened those figures to a smoother triplet feel. But it has to fit the song. What Darcy describes is more a later, be-bop stylization. Polka Dots isn't meant to swing and can't, unless the original style is completely replaced and the original feel distorted. John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Vibrato (was Problems with Smart Shapes)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mark D. Lew) wrote: For what it's worth, in my world we like to distinguish between wobble and vibrato. Of course I realize that wobble is hardly a technical term, but it's not the same as vibrato either. Actually it may be a technical term. From undergrad psychology courses many years ago, I seem to remember that there is a transition point at around 7 cycles per second. A variation faster than that is percieved as a vibrato, while a variation slower than that is percieved as individual pulses or wobble. I also seem to remember that 7 per second is a frequency that sets off a seisure (sp?) in some epileptics, as portrayed by the petit mal blackouts of the doctor in The Andromeda Strain. Of course in the movie they didn't actually have the lights flashing at 7 per second, for obvious reasons! John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Vibrato (was Problems with Smart Shapes)
Which of the two words do you consider to be connected with amplitude modulation? I'm used to both terms being connected with frequency, vibrato being a small regular fluctuation in pitch (= frequency), and wobble being an excessive or uncontrolled vibrato. Michael Cook Off the top of my head, I'd say that almost all woodwind and the better vocal vibrato are AM rather than PM. Good brass vibrato can be either, but on the classical side it's more AM. All these vibratos are produced by the diaphragm, not the throat. All string vibrato, of course, is PM. So a vocal wobble can be the result of either excessive and slow AM from the diaphragm or excessive and slow PM in the throat. Virtually all voice teachers preach that a vibrato is an inevitable result of good vocal production. Translated, that means the it's an inevitable result of the kind of vocal production they teach, which is operatically inclined. An increasing number of early music singers are finding that the lighter, unforced technique appropriate to early music allows much more flexibility and much more controlable vibrato, including real trills rather than forced vibrato trills. Good jazz singers never thought otherwise! John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Fwd: RE: [Finale] Mirror, mirror, on the wall!
David H. Bailey wrote: You should only put the fingerings in for those places where you actually are demanding a very specific sound, such as third-space C played up high on the D string. Otherwise, string players are going to go for whatever fingerings work best for them and ignore your fingerings. So it is usually best not to include them except for rare instances, and then you don't need to give the fingerings, only the location with an expression such as Sul D. There may be confusion here between tab and staff notation. No violinist reads tab! (And no generalization is true, including this one!) But, I would caution against making blanket statements about string (bowed) players. Yes, some players will ignore your fingerings because (a) they're better at making fingering choices than you are; (b) they don't have the chops to manage your fingerings; or (c) you've fingered for beginners and the results would be poor with more adept players. BUT, if your fingerings do make sense, and if the effect you want is obvious and the fingerings produce it, a lot of players WILL follow them. And exactly the same is true for your bowings, which have been sufficiently discussed in the past, I would think. Go ahead and put in your suggestions, knowing full well that they may be changed. None of which has anything to do with tab, so I may be answering entirely the wrong question! From: Steve Schow [EMAIL PROTECTED] I for one am wondering the following.. When I work on a string arrangment, part of the job is checking out the fingering to make sure the players are going to be able to play the parts the way I want them to. I don't know you, Steve, so please forgive the question. Are you a string player? Are you qualified to make those decisions? There's a huge difference between being able to play the parts your way and being able to play them effectively and artistically. John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Selling music on line
ns suggested: Copyright 1725 by J.S. Bach For the exclusive use of the choir of the Elector or Saxony or Copyright 1770, by W. A. Mozart For the exclusive private use of Empress Maria Theresa. As I see it, if the Empress Josephine heard of it, and wanted her own copy, it wiill take just a moment or two to call up the file, change Maria Theresa to Josephine, and provide Josephine, whether by e-mailed ~.pdf, or snail mailed original, her very own copy. Also, by this method, it would be immediately obvious when the choirmaster from Saxony moved on to Prussia, took copies with him, and reproduced them. I'm certainly no lawyer, but that sounds like whistling in the dark. There is no provision in the copyright law (u.s.) for any such announcement of exclusivity, so no way to enforce it. Of course if you entered into a binding legal contract that says the same thing, then the notice would be valid. Anybody know how the Contemprary Christian publishers that license various uses of their music handle the problem? John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Selling music on line
David H. Bailey, among other cogent thoughts, wrote: I believe I might also offer a printed version for an extra cost, on heavy-stock paper, for those who don't want to print their own. But even then I will include the right for that person to create necessary copies for the use of the group which purchases the music. This is not a trivial matter. Office Max paper is less than ideal for music, both in its light weight and its lack of opacity, and most people lack access to anything more professional. So I'd guess that quite a few people (including me!) would be willing to pay extra for more sturdy parts on better quality paper that would be likely to last a lot longer. I will be joining either ASCAP or BMI and would like to ask the list if anybody has any suggestions either way, along with any reasons why. If anybody would prefer to respond to me off-list, that will be fine, since I realize ascap/bmi is really outside the scope of the list. Way back when, I did join BMI, but never composed enough for it to come into play. The talk at the time was that the ASCAP formulas were heavily weighted to favor the old guys, so a newcomer was better off with BMI. It would be interesting to hear from current members. John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: French Horn question
I agree with Robert - if the parts are obviously meant to be played by a horn in G, then supply parts written out for horn in G. All the best, Lawrence Maybe I'm missing something important here. If you mean for the parts to be played by a (natural) horn in G, I would agree. But if you mean for them to be played on a modern valve horn in F, you should write them for horn in F. There's a good reason why Luck's and others are producing orchestral parts transposed for modern instruments in their normal keys. John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: French Horn question
John Howell wrote: But if you mean for them to be played on a modern valve horn in F, you should write them for horn in F. Nope. For most professionals, at least, it is better to provide them in the key of the natural horn parts. Some publishers provide both original key and F parts. I'd guess about 90% of professionals use the original key parts, given a choice. -- Robert Patterson Robert (and others who posted similar thoughts): As a former horn player who has NOT played in over 40 years, I have no quarrel with this concept, but the key word is professionals. Some students learn to transpose parts at some point in their development, but not all do. Band players would by and large stare in incomprehension at a part for horn in G, while orchestral players learn to handle it as a matter of course. In fact I doubt that a majority of band players today are capable of reading from an Eb horn part. In Jr. High and High School I made a point of being able to play from original notation (helped enormously by Phil Farkas' orchestral exerpts book), but most non-professional non-orchestral players do not. (The worst I can ever remember trying to play was a Brahms symphony--No. 4?--with the part in B! For valve horn!! Lord save us from tritone transpositions!!!) John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what should I charge (UK)
Apologies for raising a subject which I know has been covered before but, as has been said so often on this list, when it last appeared it wasn't relevant to me - now it is. I have been asked to transpose some songs for a singer who can no longer hit the high notes. He has the original copies and needs the piano parts transposing to lower keys. What would be a reasonable fee to charge for this? (I am in UK) Are there any copyright implications? If so, should they be his problem or mine? Thanks, All the best, Lawrence All I know is US law, so this may not be helpful. I'd say there are no copyright implications. Under US Fair Use it's permitted to edit or simplify music as long as you have legal copies. And in any case you would be doing work for hire, which would make any copyright implications his responsibility. Can't help on the fee question. Since it's something that any college music student could do, probably between $20 and $50 US for the transposition, plus whatever you feel your time is worth for the engraving. John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 4'33
I was listening to a quiz on BBC Radio recently and one of the questions revolved around a composer using silence in a work and being sued by the Cage estate. Apparently he had to pay up - is that true? I'll try to find the link if anyone's interested. Nick True, according to discussion on another list, though it may have been the publisher rather than the estate, depending on who actually owns the copyright. The problem was that he didn't just use silence, which I suspect is in the public domain. He specifically attributed the silence he used to Cage. Great idea, if what you want is publicity and/or notoriety. Not so great if you have to pay the judgement for infringement! John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: royalties for 4'33?
At 10:16 +0100 30/12/2002, Johannes Gebauer wrote: Given that you get permission I wonder whether you could make an arrangement of the piece for other instruments and get arranger's royalties...? I have a copy of the Peter's edition of 4'33. In the introductory note, John Cage writes: ... the work may be performed by any instrumentalist(s) and the movements may last any lengths of time. So the original piece contains all possible arrangements for all combinations of instruments. Michael Cook Actually no, if that's what it says. The question of vocal arrangements is not touched upon. John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: 4'33: can anyone confirm that it isn't [only]music?
a friend recently brought up an interesting point: as far as he knew, no staging of 4'33 has ever been produced in the realm of dance or theatre. jef Piece of cake. But remember, if you use Cage's composition, you have to pay performance royalties. John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] RE: Plug-in question/request/idea
Yes, I would find that interesting. It would come in gooed use in Renaissance transcriptions. Barbara Agreed, but you can get accurate range information from the original clefs in most situations. John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 8va, 8va, loco
Denniswrote: Is there an accepted way to indicate that most of a piece is played 8va except for certain areas played 15ma and other areas played loco? (Or, maybe, is there just a better 8va treble clef available in somebody's font?) Can't quote any rules, but as a practical matter, 1. I would never, EVER use an 8va clef, especially for a pianist who almost certainly will never have seen it before, will not realize it's even there, and will not know what it means. 2. In your specific case perhaps the best thing to do would be to write the entire piece 15va in order to avoid possibly confusing jumps. That way, once the player figures out where to start, the rest follows predictably. John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
