Re: [Finale] Please have a look
Looks like excellent work to me, including the ties. Ray Horton Louisville Orchestra - Original Message - From: Keef [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 5:20 PM Subject: [Finale] Please have a look Hi, gang. Please critique this pdf, a piano score (albeit a strange one). All serious responses are welcomed and encouraged -- general impressions are welcome as well. It is my best candidate for modern piano score, even if the music is nearly 100 years old. Please note this is a total knockoff, about four hours worth of my work (only two mugs of coffee), intended as a break from the score I'm working on so my eyes won't go completely buggy. The biggest slowdown was Finale's weird habit of simplifying syncopations (any method of completely turning this off?) I don't consider it perfect --- the ties need help, please advise as to how you would go about resetting these -- however I do consider it about 85%-95% correct. http://mysite.verizon.net/vze22zdy/alcotts.pdf or if you have trouble accessing it from there, try the link at: http://mysite.verizon.net/vze22zdy/index.html 1. Is it in the realm of publishable? Does it say professional or wannabe (be serious please)? Is this remotely impressive? What's your initial reaction when the score pops up and you actually see what piece it is? 2. What would you do differently, and how would you go about changing it from this form (please give numerical numbers when talking about resizing if you can -- i.e. this looks like it might want to shift a XXX EVPUs, or this might want to be resized to XXX%)? Since most of this piece is unmetered, and consequently there are no measure numbers, please let me know which line you mean if you get specific, i.e, p.2/3 or what a close marking is (and there's quite a few absolutely weird ones that only occur once or twice). Oh yes ... the weird note spellings are as written -- respelling isn't an issue. That's been scrubbed to *death* considering the nature of this score. All voicings, cross staffs, beaming, directions, marking placings, etc. are as the composer intended, with the exception of two accent marks. 3. What do you think this would show were I to include it in a portfolio? What value would seeing it have to you were you considering employing me? Is it too out? Is it just out enough? Does it demonstrate that I like a good challenge? Thanks in advance. Keef. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
I am chiming in late on the overworked 8va vs. leger line fight: As a performer, I have sometimes observed other performers, good and bad, amateur and professional, ignore 8va markings when it suited their purpose. (Such as I don't like this piece, and I don't feel like working that hard by playing that high or that low). They are _much_ less likely to alter an extreme note that is written with leger lines. An 8va or 8ba marking can make the composer's intended note seem like a mere alteration of the printed pitch. Ray Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
Hey! Don't shoot the messenger! I've seen it happen, that's all. I've seen 8va markings for extreme ranges ignored, occasionally, sometimes accidentally, sometimes on purpose. They seem to be taken less seriously, sometimes, by some players, then are leger lines. A typical example: Tuba part has an isolated low A with an 8ba under it. One player I used to work with, many years ago, would tend to ignore the 8ba in a case like that and just play the low A, not the pedal A. If that note, on the other hand, was written with 6 leger lines and a space, he would have been less likely to take it up an octave. Speaking for myself (and most of the good musicians I work with), I always try very, very hard to play everything the composer writes. (The most common exception for me would be something that is commonly written for bass trombone but makes little effect: a loud, low, pedal note, flutter tongued. Usually this is more successful without the flutter.) Just this morning we got to watch our percussionists running around before dress rehearsal tuning their wine glasses. (We also decided that He's been tuning his wine glasses again is a great euphemism for a percussionist falling off the wagon.) And, sure enough, the slow movement of the piece by A. Louie ended with a beautiful, ethereal chord of wine glasses. So I'm not saying that pros don't care. I'm just trying to help others on the list avoid pitfalls. These are in-the-field observations (together with my guesses at the reasoning behind them), folks. Just read them and factor them with all the other things you've learned. Just don't jump on me for what I've heard and seen other musicians do! I've gone through this phenomenon before on this list! (Remember the scordatura argument? A pro violin section WON'T DO IT! They'll tear your piece up first! If that's what you want written in your Groves article, fine, but if you want to hear a pro orchestra play your piece NOW, then put the low F# in the VIOLAS, dammit! And it's NOT MY FAULT! ... There, there, calm down, Ray) RH - Original Message - From: Richard Huggins [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Finale List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet Ray, your statement is curious to me. First I'm not exactly certain what you mean by mere alteration of the printed pitch. What's mere about it? Are you suggesting that a ledger-line note is more respected than a note with an 8va on it? Second, are you saying that the performer might arbitrarily decide the composer didn't really mean it? Richard From: Ray Horton [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am chiming in late on the overworked 8va vs. leger line fight: As a performer, I have sometimes observed other performers, good and bad, amateur and professional, ignore 8va markings when it suited their purpose. (Such as I don't like this piece, and I don't feel like working that hard by playing that high or that low). They are _much_ less likely to alter an extreme note that is written with leger lines. An 8va or 8ba marking can make the composer's intended note seem like a mere alteration of the printed pitch. Ray Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
I'm glad you can hear every tuba pedal A that goes by in every crazy piece of new music that gets played, because our conductors haven't been able to! RH - Original Message - From: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 6:49 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet In all this discussion ... where is the conductor? What conductor would put up with this behavior, pro or not? I've conducted plenty of amateurs, and by golly they played what was written, or tried to. If there was an impossibility or poor writing or arranging, it might be time for a change. As a composer, I'm pretty staggered by this entire aspect of ignoring notation! Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
Well, my name's Ray, but gosh, Robert, we all make mistakes. I'll ease off on the medication before I hit reply next time ; ) RH - Original Message - From: Richard Huggins [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Finale List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet Geez, Roy...you took my message way wrong. When I said curious, that's exactly and only what I meant. Nothing more and most certainly nothing adversarial! ... --RH ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet
But you asked where the conductor was. Conductors simply do not hear everything! Yes, the single performer's attitude, in this one example, was a bad one, obviously. I was simply giving the list some advice on how a composer could guard against such a performer's attitude in this type of case. Which would rather do: complain about musicians, or hear your pedal A? And, although this thread went quickly toward amateurs, one specific tuba player I had in mind was a pro who could play as fine a pedal register as anyone, when he wanted to. RH - Original Message - From: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] TAN: Extension ranges on ... Bass Clarinet At 09:51 PM 10/3/03 -0400, Ray Horton wrote: I'm glad you can hear every tuba pedal A that goes by in every crazy piece of new music that gets played, because our conductors haven't been able to! It's not about the pedal A, it's about the attitude -- we'll change whatever the composer wrote / whenever it's a bother to play the note. But you knew that. ;) Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] trumpet transposition
Si b = Bb It won't matter whether the player has aC or Bb Trpt. It is a simple transposition for them. Ray Horton Bass Trombonist, LouisvilleOrchestra From: Doug Phillips Hello Dan, What is the transposition when the part calls for Si b(flat)? Pini Di Roma Buccina II The player might be playing a Bb trumpet or a C tpt. I enjoyed your article about transposition. Do you, by chance, have a chart which gives a quick view of typical transpositions and the different names they are given? That might be very helpful to readers. It seems that things differ quite a bit depending on the country/language where the music was written. Thanks, Doug ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] I could care less (was Re: Finale Digest, Vol 2, Issue 10)
I do appreciate the discussion of nuclear vs. nucular. I dislike George W. Bush as president for a long list of reasons. But I will take his pronunciation of that word off of the list. Plenty of reasons left. Thanks, Ray Horton ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] A request of Alan Fischer...
Thanks to Noel and _Allen_ and all who have mentioned this printer. I am definitely purchasing one. Ray Horton ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Academic and Theological Discounts
I think the academic/theological discount has outlived its usefulness. I think Make Music should make one price - the same as the present academic price. The academic/theological discount presently really results in a penalty enforced on anyone who cannot pull a connection with a school or church. A little history is in order. I have neither exact dates nor figures in my mind, but I recall an approximate sequence of events. I remember that Finale was, sometime in the early 80s, a $900 program. Later it was a $700 program (and this was back when that was REAL MONEY g ) . So Finale was a relatively esoteric program, and still quite expensive, at the time when DOS was just starting to be nudged about by Windows. Meanwhile Music Printer Plus, a DOS program priced much less than Finale, (I'm thinking down in the $300s?) was extremely popular with school music teachers. I believe that Finale's Academic Discount, which put it down very close to MPP, was a way for Finale to take a chunk off MPP's market share in the teacher world. This was about the time that I took advantage of the Academic discount to buy Finale (even though I couldn't get it to do much because I unknowingly had a defective copy of Windows 3.1 so I kept using Personal Composer for a couple of years, but I digress.) Even though I am a full time symphony player, my part-time status at a local university (I'm listed in the catalogue but haven't had a student, or a paycheck for that matter, in a couple of years) or my part time position as a minister of music at a local church (this is quite legit, but I didn't have it when I first bought Finale!) both now qualify me for the Finale academic/theological discount. Now, several times a year a colleague in the orchestra will ask me about notation programs in general, or Finale in particular, (or some Sibelius thing they've heard about) and I tell them to try to see if they can SOMEHOW get the academic discount. Several of them, like me, are officially affiliated with a church or school and have no trouble this way, but many aren't. I know one fiddle player recently complained he couldn't manage to get the academic discount no matter what he did. I believe he may have bootlegged, but I'm not sure. You can give me all the sob stories you want about your low college prof pay - but, with the exception of members of a few high-flying ensembles, symphony pay is lower than college pay and is heading down and out at every opportunity! Why should I get the discount just because I've got a part-time college or church gig while my colleague who only has the symphony can't get the discount The irony is that I use Finale nearly every day of my life, and I make some money with it, just like many university profs (not all, of course - I also use it in my trombone teaching and make hardly a nickel but I make better students). The symphony players who talk to me are interested in starting very small - mostly they're curious, or they want to do a few arrangements. I just read someone's comment about 'private teaching' being ok. A quick Yahoo Shopping search turns up no mention of private teaching eligibility, but rather lists requirements like these for teachers purchasing Academic versions: PLEASE NOTE! A current dated school faculty ID or student ID is required for purchase of Academic Specials! Teachers: Faculty ID card -or- Letter from school on letterhead -or- Copy of pay-stub (ink out pay amount) Eligible: Faculty: K-12; Higher Ed Change the world Ray Horton Bass Trombonist Louisville Orchestra - Original Message - From: Dr. Gordon J. Callon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review That's approximately how I feel about academic discounts. I understand the software company's motivation for offering them, of course, but it still ticks me off to know that kids who are living off their parents and/or taxpayers get a better deal than others who have to work for a living. I imagine the reduced rate is to get students using and learning the software so that is what they will choose when in professional situations, and may continue to use the rest of their life. It is only the first purchase that is cheaper; upgrades are as expensive for them as everyone else, so over their lifetime they save about $350 compared to the non-academic. Note, many students are NOT living off their parents. None I know of are living off taxpayers. Most of my students are living off loans. When they graduate they are often $40,00 to $50,000 or more in debt, after a 4-year period, or 5- or 6-year if doing a Master's degree, when they have been earning little or no income (and owning nothing, so getting no home equity, etc.), paying tuition to the tune of $5,000- $8,000 (or much more elsewhere) per year, plus paying rent, food, required books at more than $100 each, plus
Re: [Finale] Academic and Theological Discounts
I made (at least ) one thing unclear in last night's late-night ramble against the academic discount. I did not mean that one colleague in my orchestra asks me repeatedly about Finale. I meant that I am often asked by different members of the orchestra about Finale or notation programs in general, and that it seems unfair that those with part-time school or church gigs on the side get a nicer answer than those without. Ray Horton Louisville Orchestra (my head hurts) - Original Message - From: Ray Horton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 3:00 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Academic and Theological Discounts I think the academic/theological discount has outlived its usefulness. I think Make Music should make one price - the same as the present academic price. The academic/theological discount presently really results in a penalty enforced on anyone who cannot pull a connection with a school or church. A little history is in order. I have neither exact dates nor figures in my mind, but I recall an approximate sequence of events. I remember that Finale was, sometime in the early 80s, a $900 program. Later it was a $700 program (and this was back when that was REAL MONEY g ) . So Finale was a relatively esoteric program, and still quite expensive, at the time when DOS was just starting to be nudged about by Windows. Meanwhile Music Printer Plus, a DOS program priced much less than Finale, (I'm thinking down in the $300s?) was extremely popular with school music teachers. I believe that Finale's Academic Discount, which put it down very close to MPP, was a way for Finale to take a chunk off MPP's market share in the teacher world. This was about the time that I took advantage of the Academic discount to buy Finale (even though I couldn't get it to do much because I unknowingly had a defective copy of Windows 3.1 so I kept using Personal Composer for a couple of years, but I digress.) Even though I am a full time symphony player, my part-time status at a local university (I'm listed in the catalogue but haven't had a student, or a paycheck for that matter, in a couple of years) or my part time position as a minister of music at a local church (this is quite legit, but I didn't have it when I first bought Finale!) both now qualify me for the Finale academic/theological discount. Now, several times a year a colleague in the orchestra will ask me about notation programs in general, or Finale in particular, (or some Sibelius thing they've heard about) and I tell them to try to see if they can SOMEHOW get the academic discount. Several of them, like me, are officially affiliated with a church or school and have no trouble this way, but many aren't. I know one fiddle player recently complained he couldn't manage to get the academic discount no matter what he did. I believe he may have bootlegged, but I'm not sure. You can give me all the sob stories you want about your low college prof pay - but, with the exception of members of a few high-flying ensembles, symphony pay is lower than college pay and is heading down and out at every opportunity! Why should I get the discount just because I've got a part-time college or church gig while my colleague who only has the symphony can't get the discount The irony is that I use Finale nearly every day of my life, and I make some money with it, just like many university profs (not all, of course - I also use it in my trombone teaching and make hardly a nickel but I make better students). The symphony players who talk to me are interested in starting very small - mostly they're curious, or they want to do a few arrangements. I just read someone's comment about 'private teaching' being ok. A quick Yahoo Shopping search turns up no mention of private teaching eligibility, but rather lists requirements like these for teachers purchasing Academic versions: PLEASE NOTE! A current dated school faculty ID or student ID is required for purchase of Academic Specials! Teachers: Faculty ID card -or- Letter from school on letterhead -or- Copy of pay-stub (ink out pay amount) Eligible: Faculty: K-12; Higher Ed Change the world Ray Horton Bass Trombonist Louisville Orchestra - Original Message - From: Dr. Gordon J. Callon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review That's approximately how I feel about academic discounts. I understand the software company's motivation for offering them, of course, but it still ticks me off to know that kids who are living off their parents and/or taxpayers get a better deal than others who have to work for a living. I imagine the reduced rate is to get students using and learning the software so that is what they will choose when in professional situations, and may
Re: [Finale] Academic and Theological Discounts
You are absolutely correct. The academic price is aimed at the larger market branch of students, not to help some poor, struggling college profs out. (Of course, someone else had started that by stating some low salary percentages for college profs, but that's money under the bridge...) However, as others have pointed out, the initial purchase price becomes much less important than the price of regular upgrades for those who become faithful users. In my example earlier, (the orchestra member who wanted to give Finale a try, couldn't get swing the Ac discount, now I have a hunch may have obtained a bootlegged copy) I would guess he is much LESS likely to become a regular subscriber to upgrades, now, than if he had been able to legally purchase a reasonably priced version as had had wished to do originally. NOT that it is any excuse IN THE LEAST for an illegal bootleg. Perhaps I should have invited him over and showed him the program. I've done that for other colleagues, certainly. Cheaper purchase price = more initial users = more possible subjects/suckers like us hungry for upgrades. And yes: Cheaper purchase price = less money coming in at the start = why I'm glad I don't have to make these kinds of decisions. Ray Horton (who'd rather make a few bucks playing and writing music than a lot of bucks selling stuff.) - Original Message - From: Christopher BJ Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ray Horton [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Academic and Theological Discounts At 3:00 AM -0400 8/22/03, Ray Horton wrote: I think the academic/theological discount has outlived its usefulness. I think Make Music should make one price - the same as the present academic price. I think it is debatable whether lower initial pricing might attract more new users from outside schools and churches. I honestly don't have the marketing info or savvy to have a strong opinion here. You can give me all the sob stories you want about your low college prof pay - but, with the exception of members of a few high-flying ensembles, symphony pay is lower than college pay and is heading down and out at every opportunity! Why should I get the discount just because I've got a part-time college or church gig while my colleague who only has the symphony can't get the discount You are definitely on the wrong track here. Finale is not discounted for altruistic reasons, but for business reasons. The academic price was chosen in order to match the price of competing programs like Encore and (later) Sibelius, so that when new users were choosing a notation program Finale would not have a price disadvantage. Hopefully, students who start on Finale because of the academic discount will keep it up once they graduate, enlarging the Finale community. Teachers are included so that they will influence their students to choose Finale. It's all very straight-forward, and all about the bottom line, and NOT about being charitable. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Rhyming Dictionary
Thanks. I'll probably remember that quite well once FinWin 2004 arrives and has it in a different place g. In the meantime I googled up a nice one at http://www.rhymezone.com/ Ray H. - Original Message - From: Fisher, Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Finale [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 5:00 PM Subject: RE: [Finale] Rhyming Dictionary Ray, Brad, et. All-- Lyric tool Lyric Menu--Rhymer (last option in the menu) Later Allen -Original Message- From: Brad Beyenhof [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 3:49 PM To: Finale Subject: Re: [Finale] Rhyming Dictionary On Wednesday, August 20, 2003, at 10:52 AM, Ray Horton wrote: Did I have a dream in which a rhyming dictionary was present in WinFin 2003? I'm looking for it and can't find it. (Maybe I should go take a napand hope it turns up again?) If you're on a Mac, it can be found in a Rhymer folder inside the Finale 2003 folder. In Windows, I know it's there, but I'm not near one to figure out where it is right now. - Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Academic and Theological Discounts
Firstly, I've answered most of these arguments already today, and admitted my error market-wise, (pretty big of me, don't you think?). However, I will seize upon one small point: I did not say the symphony musician in question is not a teacher. In fact, the one violinist example I gave does have a number of private students (probably as many as some university profs) but could not qualify because he couldn't show a college teaching ID or whatever. Maybe he could if he had contacted a dealer who was either less scrupulous or less concerned with the letter of the law, but he didn't. I teach privately, mostly high school students, (at least when I'm not spending far too much time on the computer defending myself for jumping on somebody else's 'underpaid college prof' remark and carrying it too far). I will often, during a student's lesson, call up a file, switch something about very quickly to tailor it for him or her, and print it. Their eyes bug out the first time they see that. They are hooked, believe me. If they are computer users that's when I'll give them a link to Finale Notepad. Their band director, and (maybe) the guy who arranges the marching show gets the Fin Ac discount, too, but, (particularly in the marching arranger's case) they print hurried-looking CRAP, and I imagine said arranger isn't spending a lot of time showing kids how it works. They MAY be recruiting some Finale clients - I KNOW I am. Maybe a private studio discount is called for, for my colleagues? Minimum number of students? Per capita income per household of students? (Man - I get sarcastic when I'm tired - you wouldn't BELIEVE the day and night yesterday. I'm hoping we can drop this thread pretty soon as I'm too week to resist replying.) Ray H. - Original Message - From: David W. Fenton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Academic and Theological Discounts On 22 Aug 2003 at 8:56, Ray Horton wrote: I made (at least ) one thing unclear in last night's late-night ramble against the academic discount. I did not mean that one colleague in my orchestra asks me repeatedly about Finale. I meant that I am often asked by different members of the orchestra about Finale or notation programs in general, and that it seems unfair that those with part-time school or church gigs on the side get a nicer answer than those without. There is a real difference: teachers have students, and the idea of the academic discount for teachers is that they will get hooked on Finale and urge their students to use it as well. For a symphony musician who is not also a teacher, what is the justification for the discount? Coda is not doing it as welfare for poor people, but as a way of getting more people to chooose their product when they first encounter the need for a notation program, on the theory that people tend to stay with the one they learn first. In short, the students are poor argument is a spurious point. Not all students *are* poor, but all of them are young and possibly choosing a notation program for the first time. The logic is the same behind banks that offer no-fee or low-fee bank accounts for students, and for credit card companies that offer lower interest rates to students even though the students don't really have income and are probably much worse credit risks than fully employed people out of school who couldn't get the same interest rate. The concept is to build familiarity and loyalty with the product for a low entry price in the hopes that the user will stay with the product for the long term and produce revenues later on (higher fees for bank accounts and credit cards, upgrades for software) that will partly offset the potential revenues lost on the front end. And the theory works because if you don't forgo the initial revenue, in most cases, you won't get any of the later revenue stream. And in a competitive environment, where others are offering the student discount, it's not possible to buck the trend. And it wouldn't make good business sense, in any case. In my computer consulting, I have multiple billing rates for different clients. I have a wholesale rate (for third-party clients; i.e., a company hires me to work for one of their clients) and I have a retail rate for my direct clients which is higher. The kind and quality of the work is the same. Why is the wholesale rate lower? Because of two reasons: 1. my cost basis for those clients is lower as I don't have to do any work finding the clients, maintaining relationships with them or doing collections/billing. You'd be surprised to find out exactly how much time (i.e., ) all of those things take. 2. if I priced myself the same for both, the third-party clients would be paying scandalously higher fees for the same work as my direct clients (because the third party always has a markup). Or, I'd be cheating myself out
[Finale] Rhyming Dictionary
Did I have a dream in which a rhyming dictionary was present in WinFin 2003? I'm looking for it and can't find it. (Maybe I should go take a napand hope it turns up again?) Ray Horton ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Screen rotation?
See if you local CompUSA has the new Samsung SyncMaster 21.3 inch 213 TFT-LCD out front (maybe with a repro of the Mona Lisa showing like my local store does). It swivels, and the display switches with a quick switch. I'm in love! I can only imagine what working on that last full score of mine would have been like with that beauty! I also must admit to having an alternate mini-dream of getting one and visiting http://www.playboy.hg.pl (no staples!), but I'm too busy with music to even seriously consider that. I keep telling the rest of my family I have a birthday coming up, but I made the mistake of mentioning the price tag ($1300). Ray H. seriously ashamed of himself - Original Message - From: Darcy James Argue [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Richard Huggins [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Finale List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Screen rotation? Well, I gotta say, all the confusion on this issue is confusing to me. And Robert even has a FAQ about screen rotation on his website, where all your questions are answered and more. But since you asked: On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 02:21 PM, Richard Huggins wrote: And to be doubly clear, are we agreed that portrait means taller than wide, and landscape means wider than tall? It always has in print drivers I've used, but again--we're being doubly clear. Yes, of course. I agree with Blue that it still is not clear as to whether the references to rotation have meant: a monitor (like the old Radius line) built to be able to physically swivel, and usually coming with software that alters the image accordingly No, they don't make those anymore. a fixed-configuration monitor which one lays on its side Yes. a fixed-configuration monitor in portrait mode (taller than wide) No, they don't make those anymore. As Robert said in an earlier post, screen rotation is only feasible for people who own LCD (flat-panel) displays. CRTs (cathode ray tube, i.e., conventional monitors) mostly cannot be operating on their side, with rare exceptions like the old Radius pivot displays. LCDs don't have that limitation, so any old LCD can be operated in portrait mode instead of landscape mode. All you need is software that will tell the OS to rotate the screen image 90 degrees. (Well, that and a stand or mounting bracket that will hold the LCD on its side.) Currently, this software is only available for Windows -- apparently, it's even built-in to some video card drivers -- and OS 9. The orgasmic advantage that Robert is talking about here is the ability to see all of the instruments on an orchestral score at once. Also the ability to see an entire page of music on screen at once at a high resolution. This advantage is more orgasmic for some than others. Personally, I don't mind the vertical scrolling so much. I'd rather be able to see the maximum number of measures in scroll view, so screen rotation doesn't seem like such a big deal for me -- though I will admit that I don't have an LCD display yet so I've never tried it. I suppose if I had a mounting bracket or a stand that allowed for easy physical rotation of the screen, I might compose in Scroll View in landscape mode, then edit in Page View in portrait mode. (Incidentally, Robert, have you tried writing to ATI and/or nVidia customer support and requesting this feature from *them*? Since apparently nVidia provides support for screen rotation on Windows, perhaps they would consider doing the same for OS X? ATI might be an even better bet, though, as they sell boxed, retail products and release their own drivers, independently of Apple (whereas nVidia is only an OEM provider, and Apple does the drivers). It's worth a shot.) For example, I'm on Mac and have a Mitsubishi 21 monitor (not flat panel) capable of up to 1024 X 768 rez. Does it apply to me? No. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston MA ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] What is screen rotation?
That is super, Robert! Nice setup! Ray H. - Original Message - From: Robert Patterson Finale [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 8:28 PM Subject: [Finale] What is screen rotation? Many have answered this question quite well. It seems (in my defensive state before discovering ATI Radeon 9800 Pro VERSAVISION mumbo jumbo) I may have misinterpreted ignorance as skepticism in at least some cases, so sorry if so. Email is extremely bad at nuance. To help illustrate screen rotation, I've put up a couple of photos of my setup. Reducing it to a 3x5 72 dpi photo saps a great deal of its impact. You probably won't think these photos are at all x-rated. But for the interested... http://robertgpatterson.com/techtipsfaq.html#anchor#MPRT.5 One additional benefit of the monitor arms is that I can float the monitors in front of me without blocking access to the midi keyboard. I will admit that when the big 24 is in portrait mode, being able to see what I'm playing on the midi keyboard requires contortions. I could move the keyboard forward, but then I would have no writing area in front of me. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Great review. Thanks! Ray Horton - Original Message - From: Jari Williamsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 6:50 PM Subject: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review Hello! I've now put a Finale 2004 review with some tips on the tips site. I'll correct all the typos tomorrow... http://www.finaletips.nu/ Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ted Ross reprint]
Is that the edition with the Richard Strauss additions? - Original Message - From: David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: John Howell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:42 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Ted Ross reprint] Dover reprints it also, score size as Noel thought. John Howell wrote: On Monday, August 11, 2003, at 05:48 PM, Noel Stoutenburg wrote: And, quite related to our field, the Berlioz/Strauss Treatise on Instrumentation. Isn't that the one reprinted by Dover? If it's what I'm thinking of, it's published with big pages, so that it looks just like one of their orchestra score reprints. I'd check, but all of my books are packed up in boxes hundreds of miles away right now. mdl I think it's Kalmus--green cover--but I don't know where my copy is packed away. John -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ted Ross reprint]
Great book. I learned a lot from an old copy I checked out repeatedly from the public library while I was in high school. I can still quote passages from it. I'll have to look for it at Barnes and Noble. Ray Horton - Original Message - From: David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ray Horton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: John Howell [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Ted Ross reprint] The Dover edition is the Berlioz/Strauss edition. Ray Horton wrote: Is that the edition with the Richard Strauss additions? - Original Message - From: David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: John Howell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:42 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Ted Ross reprint] Dover reprints it also, score size as Noel thought. John Howell wrote: On Monday, August 11, 2003, at 05:48 PM, Noel Stoutenburg wrote: And, quite related to our field, the Berlioz/Strauss Treatise on Instrumentation. Isn't that the one reprinted by Dover? If it's what I'm thinking of, it's published with big pages, so that it looks just like one of their orchestra score reprints. I'd check, but all of my books are packed up in boxes hundreds of miles away right now. mdl I think it's Kalmus--green cover--but I don't know where my copy is packed away. John -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale . -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] It's here -- Finale 2004!
According to phone, Win version will ship end of August, Mac version in October. Ray Horton - Original Message - From: William Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 6:02 PM Subject: [Finale] It's here -- Finale 2004! Hi folks, Check this out: http://www.finalemusic.com/finale/f2k4/index.asp No mention of ship dates in the web tour, but it looks good. New playback (including human playback and a built-in soundfont), smarter expressions, fixes to accidental spacing in layers, automatic page turns and cue notes, and a built-in scripting language... it's a big upgrade, certainly weightier than 2k3. Let the discussion commence! Best, -WR Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail! http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005 ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Bowing in orch parts
I have found that overworked string principals LOVE it when there are good, or even pretty good, bowings already in the parts. They do change some of them (usually in rehearsal), but it makes all there work much easier. Printed bowings are quite easy to mark over in pencil (easier than erasing old pencil and remarking). And printed bowings only have to be typed in once, while penciled bowings have copied by hand into every part. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra - Original Message - From: David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: David Froom [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Finale Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 12:34 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Bowing in orch parts String players are going to change whatever bowings you put in the music anyway, so you should leave them out, unless there are a couple you really, absolutely want done a specific way (and even then, they're gonna get changed, you can count on it.) Make your phrasing clear from your slurs and other markings and leave the bowings up to the performers. David Froom wrote: Hello, I am hoping to tap collective wisdom here. I have an orchestral piece that I'm revising right now. It has had two performances (good orchestras). After the first performance, I kept the bowings put in by the string section leaders in the parts. The performers of the second piece rebowed a few places. Now that I am revising, and making a new set of parts, I am wondering if I should include the bowings in the parts? I have never done this, knowing that section leaders will do a better job than I would. However, since I have a nice set of bowings, should I include these in the string parts? I'm guessing that if I do, the section leaders would pick over them and change the ones they don't like. In that case, should I just leave the parts unbowed? Obviously, I have slurs and articulations. I'm just talking about the standard downbow/upbow markings. On a side note: I did this piece originally in 3.7.2. I have done a fair amount of the revising in 3.7.2, and I am impressed with how well the program stands up! I have done some of the work in 2003, and I am also impressed with how well the program converts the old files, and also how much has improved in the intervening years. The revisions were not extensive enough to require re-extracting the parts -- faster to simply rework each one. It seems that after converting a part, all I need do is remove the tie/dot alterations, reset the tie settings to default, remove system locks, respace and recalc -- and I am ready to go. Thanks, David Froom ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale . -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Bowing in orch parts
Whew! I should never type a reply just as a student is coming to the door for a make-up lesson. At least two dreadful mis-typings. I'll try it again: I have found that overworked string principals LOVE it when there are good, or even pretty good, bowings already in the parts. They do change some of them (usually in rehearsal), but it makes all their work much easier. Printed bowings are quite easy to mark over in pencil (easier than erasing old pencil and remarking). And printed bowings only have to be typed in once, while penciled bowings have to be copied by hand into every part. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra - Original Message - From: David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: David Froom [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Finale Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 12:34 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Bowing in orch parts String players are going to change whatever bowings you put in the music anyway, so you should leave them out, unless there are a couple you really, absolutely want done a specific way (and even then, they're gonna get changed, you can count on it.) Make your phrasing clear from your slurs and other markings and leave the bowings up to the performers. David Froom wrote: Hello, I am hoping to tap collective wisdom here. I have an orchestral piece that I'm revising right now. It has had two performances (good orchestras). After the first performance, I kept the bowings put in by the string section leaders in the parts. The performers of the second piece rebowed a few places. Now that I am revising, and making a new set of parts, I am wondering if I should include the bowings in the parts? I have never done this, knowing that section leaders will do a better job than I would. However, since I have a nice set of bowings, should I include these in the string parts? I'm guessing that if I do, the section leaders would pick over them and change the ones they don't like. In that case, should I just leave the parts unbowed? Obviously, I have slurs and articulations. I'm just talking about the standard downbow/upbow markings. On a side note: I did this piece originally in 3.7.2. I have done a fair amount of the revising in 3.7.2, and I am impressed with how well the program stands up! I have done some of the work in 2003, and I am also impressed with how well the program converts the old files, and also how much has improved in the intervening years. The revisions were not extensive enough to require re-extracting the parts -- faster to simply rework each one. It seems that after converting a part, all I need do is remove the tie/dot alterations, reset the tie settings to default, remove system locks, respace and recalc -- and I am ready to go. Thanks, David Froom ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale . -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] In-Text accidentals
Don't apologize! And don't keep us in suspense! Ray Horton - Original Message - From: Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Finale [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 7:37 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] In-Text accidentals On Friday, June 27, 2003, at 04:25 PM, Brad Beyenhof wrote: How does one globally change the font and/or size of the accidentals you can place within text? I mean like command-shift-F for a flat (as in a group name of Bb Clarinets). Thanks. Never mind, I found it after some more searching... sorry to bug the list. - Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Songs for intervals
For Maj 7th try 1st and 3rd notes of Over the Rainbow. Same for Bali Hai from South Pacific, if anybody remembers that. Ray Horton - Original Message - From: Christopher BJ Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: RockyRoad [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Finale List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 10:08 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: Songs for intervals At 10:05 PM +1000 6/27/03, RockyRoad wrote: Seeing this is the most musical list I'm on, I had a question about songs for intervals: P8: Somewhere over the Rainbow, My Sharona opening M7: m7: Theres A Place For Us Also the theme to the original Star Trek TV series M6: My Bonnie m6: Where Do I Begin (descending) Tritone: Marea, Simpsons Theme or Mars from the Planets by Holst P5: Twinkle, Superman Theme, I'm singing this in my head, and I'm not getting it. Do you mean Star Wars? Chariots of Fire Opening P4: Advance Australia Fair or the Mexican Hat Dance. M3: While shepherds washed their socks by night m3: Greensleeves M2: Frere Jacques m2: Jaws theme Does anyone have a song for the major 7th, When I was in school I used the opening arpeggio to Colour My World by Chicago, which is a major-seventh chord outline. It may be out of date by now. or an ascending song for the minor 6th? The one I used for ascending minor 6th when I was in school was a song from Little Me (because I was playing in the pit at the time) called Goodbye. I don't expect anyone except the hardest-core Broadway fan to know it, though. The classical students with me all said they had a tune by Bach that they knew, but I don't remember which one. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Re: Louisville Orchestra financial situation
Thanks for asking. We settled Friday, ending an uncertain situation that's been threatening since November. I'll refer anyone interested in the settlement to the musicians' website: http://www.savethelo.org Right now that website consists only of a one-page account of the settlement. The 4th paragraph contains a misprint, describing our new shorter season as 30 weeks instead of the correct 39. (I've notified the webmaster so he me correct it before you see it. I'll relay your compliment on the costumes to my my mom, too. Thanks! Ray Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra - Original Message - From: Daniel Dorff [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ray Horton [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] The most off-topic message I've ever posted Awesome costumes! Ray, what is new with the Louisville Orchestra? I've heard some scary news reports. - Original Message - From: Ray Horton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 8:26 PM Subject: [Finale] The most off-topic message I've ever posted My 87 year-old mother designed two prom costumes out of duct tape for a contest by the duck tape people. (Are there really duct tape people in this day and age? Is it permanent? Is it treatable?) Anyway, please help her win the contest by going to: http://www.ducktape.com/prom/entries.asp?state=page=15# and voting (once per person). Her costumes are the King Tut-type Egyptian pair (top row, 2nd from the left, if it's the same as I see it.) Write me if you want a larger version of the same picture to threaten YOUR kids with. (The two in the photo are friends of my nephew in Kent, WA). The deadline for voting is June 29th. Please vote and forward this to all your friends! Thanks! Ray Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Seeking Opinons...
That link came up empty. What kind of printer is it? Ray Horton - Original Message - From: Fisher, Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 5:43 PM Subject: [Finale] Seeking Opinons... Listers: I am looking to cut down the overhead in my engraving operation by purchasing a good large format laser (going to kinkos is a pain and it costs too much). In my search, I came across the following printer: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?sku=R50 0-1027%20P For the price, it seems like an unbeliveable deal (13x17 maximum size, 1200dpi PS3, wireless lan support). Wondering if anyone had any opinions. Thanks, Allen Allen J. Fisher MakeMusic!, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.makemusic.com Life is a series of dogs --George Carlin ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Scordatura notation and playback
Yes, I am referring to a string section in an orchestra. The original question was about orchestral writing. (If guitarists had only pegs, not machine mechanisms, they probably wouldn't want to mess with them in the middle of a piece, either!) I use D tuning on my guitar a lot, myself. And I make use of several different tunings on my bass trombone valve and/or valves, if that matters. Ray Horton - Original Message - From: Bruce K H Kau [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ray Horton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Scordatura notation and playback I assume by string players you mean violin/viola/etc. Many guitarists, as far as I know, love to detune strings. David Wilcox, Joni Mitchell, and Stephen Stills come to mind. Here in Hawai'i it is almost the norm to use non-standard tunings. See, for example, http://www.kbeamer.com/ And, yes, some guitarists have different guitars for different tunings. But, many just get really good and detuning and retuning by ear. This actually creates a rather interesting sound, as when you detune a guitar, you can achieve some sounds on a fretted instrument that are otherwise not possible. For example a very popular tuning is (low to high) D G D G B D - a purge G major chord. But, you can use just intonation instead of equal tempered, and the additional richness this offers is quite amazing. At 02:53 PM 6/2/2003 -0400, Ray Horton wrote: Notation is the least of the problem. It's been my experience that string players, especially violinists, detest this and will try to avoid messing up the tuning of their instruments just to play something the violas can do better. It's nearly impossible to get the off-tuned string in tune, and difficult to retune it back to the correct pitch. I'm not sure what you are describing, but perhaps just the firsts and violas could handle it? When I mentioned a low F-sharp to my daughter, the violinist, she said That's why God made violas. Ray Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra - Original Message - I have this niggling feeling that this has already been discussed on this list, but I'm curious about how to notate violin scordatura. In a work that I'm working on at the moment, I'd like the second violins to tune the G string down to F-sharp so that firsts, seconds and violas can play in a two-octave spread. I just want to know how I should notate this and get it to playback properly. Taris ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale - Bruce K. H. Kau[EMAIL PROTECTED] Kane'ohe, Hawai'i, USA Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning ... ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Finale] Score Order Darcy James Argue wrote: I'm working on engraving a piece with the following instrumentation: Timp Bells/Chimes Perc Harp Piano Boy Soprano SATB chorus Strings The reasons I think the above is best are two: 1) It is practical. The voices are right in the middle, where a conductor who is used to orchestral/choral scores will be used to seeing them. Just like a concerto for choir. The piano is still near the voices, even if not below. The percussion are up out of the way. 2) Any other order can be disputed. Standard orchestral order really can't be. For an example of what I mean by 2), look at brass trio scores (trp, hn, trb). Most will put the trpt above the horn, but a few (Poulenc is one, I believe) put the horn on top to follow orchestral convention. One might prefer the former, but one really cannot argue with the latter. Ray Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Scordatura notation and playback
Notation is the least of the problem. It's been my experience that string players, especially violinists, detest this and will try to avoid messing up the tuning of their instruments just to play something the violas can do better. It's nearly impossible to get the off-tuned string in tune, and difficult to retune it back to the correct pitch. I'm not sure what you are describing, but perhaps just the firsts and violas could handle it? When I mentioned a low F-sharp to my daughter, the violinist, she said That's why God made violas. Ray Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra - Original Message - I have this niggling feeling that this has already been discussed on this list, but I'm curious about how to notate violin scordatura. In a work that I'm working on at the moment, I'd like the second violins to tune the G string down to F-sharp so that firsts, seconds and violas can play in a two-octave spread. I just want to know how I should notate this and get it to playback properly. Taris ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
The traditional order is horns above trumpets. The horns got there first, and the trumpets, often playing along with timpani, followed. The order remains that way because of tradition, and because the horns play more with the WWS (esp. bssns) than do the trpts. No good reason to change it. Other than some score that use unusual instrumentation and a totally different order, I don't recall any orchestral works that put trpts above horns on the page. Can anyone name any I should know of? Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra - Original Message - From: Michael Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Finale [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 3:07 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Score Order [Ray Horton:] 2) Any other order can be disputed. Standard orchestral order really can't be. For an example of what I mean by 2), look at brass trio scores (trp, hn, trb). Most will put the trpt above the horn, but a few (Poulenc is one, I believe) put the horn on top to follow orchestral convention. One might prefer the former, but one really cannot argue with the latter. For that matter, haven't there been occasions when trumpets were put above horns in orchestral scores? Given that, within each division, instruments are listed in order of descending pitch, isn't there an argument for putting trumpets above horns? Regards, Michael Edwards. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Scordatura notation and playback
Taris said (complete message below): Doesn't strike me as a very professional attitude. Very professional, in fact. A professional will strive to play in tune at all times, and will strive to take care of his or her instrument so that it plays well at all times. For these reasons, the professional will usually seek other ways within the section to play the scordatura passages, if possible, or will use a cheaper instrument, already mis-tuned, for necessary scordatura passages. Bass is an exception - they do sometimes mistune for certain passages. It'sd easier with machine tuning than with pegs, and the instrument can take it better. My son played Koussevitsky Concerto with his youth orchestra a couple of weeks ago. He had restrung his bass with solo strings (a step higher than orchestra strings, as per Koussevitsky's invention) and played the rest of the concert on a school bass tuned normally. On the work before his solo, his G string snapped, so after his solo he went off and tuned his solo strings down to play the last piece on the program. Not the best sound, but better than not playing. The Saint-Saens and Mahler parts you mentioned are for a solo instrument. Certainly in the Mahler, (where the effect the solo player will pick up a second instrument. The soloist in the Saint-Saens will either pick up a second instrument or walk off stage to retune (or, most likely, walk off-stage to get a second instrument and to come back for a solo bow!) In neither case will they have to tune/retune onstage while the music is going on. I haven't seen my Rite of Spring score for months, and am too cheap to buy another, but I seem to recall that the cello passage mentioned (last bar) is a multiple stop, and I would be fairly certain that the passage will generally be played divisi in such a way to avoid the scordatura. Don't shoot the messenger - I'm telling you what I have observed. And, I am talking strictly about a string section in a professional symphony orchestra. I still do not understand the nature of the passage that Taris wants to write - how can you tune the seconds down to an F# and have the violas play another octave lower? Ray Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra - Original Message - From: Taris L Flashpaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ray Horton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 4:50 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Scordatura notation and playback Doesn't strike me as a very professional attitude. I mean, looking my orchestration book, they list three famous passages (one of which, I confess, isn't for violin, but 'cello, but still, the mistuned string's pitch can be played by violas). The first is the Saint-Saens Danse Macabre solo violin part. The top string is tuned down to E-flat. The second is in the Mahler Symphony #4, Second mvmt. Every string is tuned up a full tone. The one for 'cello is the final measure of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. The A-string is down a half-tone. And this is used for a whole section, not just a soloist. And it's rather hard to have the violas do it when they're playing an octave below what the seconds are playing (and that's an octave below the firsts). And it'd be hard to balance two half-sections of violas with first violins. Taris At 02:53 PM 6/2/2003 -0400, you wrote: Notation is the least of the problem. It's been my experience that string players, especially violinists, detest this and will try to avoid messing up the tuning of their instruments just to play something the violas can do better. It's nearly impossible to get the off-tuned string in tune, and difficult to retune it back to the correct pitch. I'm not sure what you are describing, but perhaps just the firsts and violas could handle it? When I mentioned a low F-sharp to my daughter, the violinist, she said That's why God made violas. Ray Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra - Original Message - I have this niggling feeling that this has already been discussed on this list, but I'm curious about how to notate violin scordatura. In a work that I'm working on at the moment, I'd like the second violins to tune the G string down to F-sharp so that firsts, seconds and violas can play in a two-octave spread. I just want to know how I should notate this and get it to playback properly. Taris ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
From: Daniel Dorff: Prokofiev is the best known of those who put the Tpts on top, and he certainly knew about orchestration. That's very interesting. I had never taken a notice of that, and I seem to have no Prokofiev scores here at home. ALL the other mid-20th century greats that I have looked at just now - including a few each by Stravinsky, Bartok, Schoenberg, Webern, Berg, Hindemith, Copland, plus all of lesser known later 20th century composers' scores I have here, keep the horns printed above the trumpets. IMHO you'd have to have an AWFULLY good reason to switch, and risk confusing conductors. (When each of us gets as well known as Prokofiev, we could give it a try, I suppose, but I don't see the need.) ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
Darcy James Argue wrote: I'm working on engraving a piece with the following instrumentation: Timp Bells/Chimes Perc Harp Piano Boy Soprano SATB chorus Strings My question is, what score order would you choose for this ensemble? The above order would be (I believe) the standard orchestral order, but -- call me biassed, but it looks odd to me to have the percussion at the top like that. I think my instinct would be to put the boy soprano and chorus at the top instead. Comments? I thought it would make sense to see what Finale's Document Setup Wizard would do for this instrumentation in the Choral score order. Here it is, read it and weep: Viola Cello Contrabass Boy Soprano SATB chorus Harp Piano Timp Bells/Chimes Perc Violin 1 Violin 2 If that's not strange enough, here's the Concert Band order: Boy Soprano SATB chorus Harp Piano Timp Bells/Chimes Perc Viola Cello Contrabass Violin 1 Violin 2 Of course, both are absurd. But, if you take the first Choral setup and flip the lower strings down below the violins, it looks fairly good: Boy Soprano SATB chorus Harp Piano Timp Bells/Chimes Perc Violin 1 Violin 2 Viola Cello Contrabass although an argument could still be made for putting all three percussion staves at the bottom. _BUT_, the more I look at it, the more I like the normal orchestral order: Timp Bells/Chimes Perc Harp Piano Boy Soprano SATB chorus Violin 1 Violin 2 Viola Cello Contrabass Which is what you started with! (The Document Wizard for orchestral does get this right, BTW.) Ray Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Do house styles override what composer wrote?
I just read the whole reply, and I'm exhausted! Let me sum up, and then bow out of any further discussion. (I will read any replies, but bite my lip.) Key sigs: If I were an editor, and Michael, or any composer made it clear to me that he really wants his new key sigs to go against the house style, I would say - they don't make a bit of difference, but OK. (Unless I missed something earlier in the discussion - I still haven't the slightest idea how they can affect performance). Notice that I never argued for any of the three styles mentioned - performers see all three and read all three successfully. They don't matter, except for those concerned with consistency. If Presser brings out a composition of mine, I would not care a twit about which style they used. Here I am ONLY talking about key signature changes, nothing else. Cautionary accidentals: if I, as an editor, I would be very glad that composer Michael carefully placed cautionary accidentals. If I, as editor, found one that Michael had missed, or suggested that one he had included was unnecessary, I would hope Michael and I could discuss it reasonably. I would go along with his wishes unless I felt it caused the publishing house's output to look less than professional or made successful performance less likely. If what the composer wanted really looked, in my, the editor's, opinion, substandard, and did not help the communication of the music, at some point I would have to decide if that composer's music was worth a possible damage to my publishing house's reputation. Difference between slurs and ties is good, but I would never assume a slight difference in slurs and ties would be easily noted by a performer, and would certainly use cautionary accidentals to make the difference between slurs and ties clear, if needed. I have no problem with Grainger's use of slow off. I just mentioned it in connection with possible pitfalls in the use of such non-standard indications. The copy I played from in the example I gave was hand copied poorly, and made the ff of off: look almost like a separate indication. (I am an excellent sight-reader. I made the mistake at the rehearsal, made a mental note of it, and then started to make the same mistake at the performance with somewhat strange results. I should have scratched it totally out at the rehearsal, as it was too oddly copied to fix.) The answer in this case was - copy clearly, or stick with rit. It's been years since I've looked at it, but I seem to recall that Grainger's Linconshire Posy score has all the louden lots type indications, but the parts have traditional Italian replacements, which is a shame. Ray Horton (checking out of this discussion). - Original Message - From: Michael Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Finale [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Do house styles override what composer wrote? [Ray Horton:] Michael Edwards wrote: (a) The use or non-use of naturals in key-signature changes should (in my opinion) be determined by the composer (especially if he or she definitely wants a particular method), and not overridden by the engraver or publisher. Ray Horton wrote: I have no problem seeing this as a publisher style, since it makes no difference to the performance. Ray, would you then, in that case, eliminate the various mannerisms I mentioned before that can be found in Ives, Debussy, Satie, Grainger, etc.? I don't like the idea at all - even though those mannerisms are not ones I would ever want to use myself. Not at all. I was speaking specifically of key sig changes. Okay; I probably wrongly generalized your remarks there a bit too much, and applied them to other things you didn't mean them to apply to, as the discussion itself broadened. Sorry for that. I have seen them handled different ways in different publications, but none of the different ways in which they were handled makes any possible difference to the performance except to prevent a note-reading error, so I would, in general, leave it to the house style. I still can't agree, and feel that, in this issue, the composer should be allowed to choose, if he or she has a clear preference. I would not assume that different styles of key sig changes would be mandated by the composer, anyway. If you were dealing with my music, your assumption would be wrong. Knowing that, would you still say to me, You must accept our house style, or we won't publish the music? Whether I would acquiesce, I don't know; it would depend on a variety of factors. But I feel you would not be justified in imposing this on me. They simply don't matter. If they don't matter, why take the trouble to impose a house style? I take pride in doing my scores well, and have certain ways of doing them, and the older style of key-signature changes is one of my ways. I'm sure I can't be the only person
Re: [Finale] Do house styles override what composer wrote?
Daniel Dorff wrote: Richard Wernick likes indicating a 5-beat note by putting a rhythmic dot *before and after* a whole note, and so on for smaller values, Crumb has used this, also. I remember seeing, in 5/8 time, a dot before and after a half note. The first dot is supposed to subtract half the value of the second dot. Michael Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (a) The use or non-use of naturals in key-signature changes should (in my opinion) be determined by the composer (especially if he or she definitely wants a particular method), and not overridden by the engraver or publisher. I have no problem seeing this as a publisher style, since it makes no difference to the performance. If we stuck to composer's ms variances on key sigs, we'd have to print J.S. Bach key sigs with flats or sharps on every possible octave as his ms's show on occasion. Ray Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Do house styles override what composer wrote?
Michael Edwards wrote: (a) The use or non-use of naturals in key-signature changes should (in my opinion) be determined by the composer (especially if he or she definitely wants a particular method), and not overridden by the engraver or publisher. Ray Horton wrote: I have no problem seeing this as a publisher style, since it makes no difference to the performance. Ray, would you then, in that case, eliminate the various mannerisms I mentioned before that can be found in Ives, Debussy, Satie, Grainger, etc.? I don't like the idea at all - even though those mannerisms are not ones I would ever want to use myself. Not at all. I was speaking specifically of key sig changes. I have seen them handled different ways in different publications, but none of the different ways in which they were handled makes any possible difference to the performance except to prevent a note-reading error, so I would, in general, leave it to the house style. I would not assume that different styles of key sig changes would be mandated by the composer, anyway. They simply don't matter. Any other mannerisims, such as unusual beaming (or Grainger's louden lots in place of a crescendo), that could more effectively communicate the composers intent to the performer, would be, in general, left in. But I see no way in which the inclusion of naturals, or not, in a key sig change, or the placement of the naturals before or after the new key sig, would affect the performance of music beyond avoiding a sight-reading mistake. For example, cautionary accidentals is a similar, but not identical, matter. I haven't spent a lot of time looking at great composer's mss, but I would imagine that, in general, cautionary accidentals don't show up a lot in those mss. It would be the editor's responsibility to place them where needed. And again, they would not affect what the the audience hears a bit unless errors were being made because of their misuse or lack of use. If the publisher has a house style in this case I suppose it would come into play, but common sense would be the better rule here. I mention cautionary accidentals because the lack of them, when needed, is a pet peave of mine - they are falling out of use as computer engraving becomes the norm. In two areas of quickly-produced music that I see a lot of, namely cheap pop charts for orchestra and church anthems, I have seen multiple examples in the last few years of a failure to cancel an accidental over a barline (Example: F Eb | E , with no natural on the E after the barline). One of the worst I've seen - on a pop arrangement piece a pro orchestra will read one time AT MOST in rehearsal: E F# | F with a tie (or slur) over the barline. Any idiot knows that the tie over the barline makes the note after the barline F#, but in this case F natural was intended and the curvy line was supposed to be a slur. This is, of course, an error, partly allowed by a software that will playback the last note correctly every time, but the human element should fill in here until the software gets smarter. (The other problem here is our silly use of am identical or nearly-identical curved line for both ties and slurs but it would take some doing to change that.) Anyway, back to the subject, I agree that composer's idiosyncracies should, in general, be left in, especially if they help the performer in interpretation. A wise editor will discuss these with the composer befroe changing anything. There can be pitfalls to individuality in notation. Once, I was playing a lyrical euphonium solo in a hand-copied Grainger piece that had his indication of slow off. As the phrase should have been tapering down, I misread the hand-copied two fs in slow off as a fortissimo - and made started to make a rather un-musical crescendo before I realized my mistake. (Shouldn't that have been above the staff? But what if the composer wanted it below... never mind.) Ray Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra It may seem like a small matter of musical grammar that doesn't affect the meaning - a bit like the way more and more writers today seem to use run-on sentences: two grammatically complete sentences joined by a comma, where a stronger stop such as a semicolon or full-stop should be used. The meaning is usually obvious and unchanged, but it is flawed grammar. If according to modern standards of grammar it is now ruled to be correct, then I beg to differ, and would not want editors changing anything I wrote like this, if I were having a book published. I tend to see the naturals in key-signature changes in a similar light. I don't correct others who use the modern convention, unless they ask my opinion or it comes up in general discussion - just I would consider it rude to criticize someone for using run-on sentences, even though my opinion that it's wrong is unchanged; and I don't want publishers imposing their house style on me and insisting I do
Re: [Finale] TAN: soundbank? (WinXP compatible!)
The Roland Virtual Sound Canvas is definitely better sounding than the MS Wavetable SW Synth. The current Win XP compatible versionis theVSC-3. You can purchase itfrom PG Music for $20if you buy it with other products, or it is included with some of their products and upgrades. Read about it at: http://www.pgmusic.com/rolandvs.htm. The latencycan be adjusted in Finale but for me it is easier toswitch the midi output back to my soundcard on those occasions whenIuse hyperscribe. Ray Horton Harrock Hall Music wrote: Hi all-- I have several files I want to make gooder-n-good -- (thas a suthern spreshun!) --- from Finale to midi format, to burn to cd. I have the current Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth as my default midi music playback device. Is there a better sounding one? Can one get them free off the Inet? And *if* there is, *how* do you load it ?! Thanks for any insights... good weekend to all-- Cecil Rigby HarrockHallMusic David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not having the Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth I can't really compare, but there is the VirtualSoundCanvas, which may be free these days if you can find it on the internet. ...___Finale mailing list[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] help.
On 20.03.2003 21:47 Uhr, Andrew Fox wrote Help. I apologize if I have missed something obvious. I am haveing trouble coordinating my tap in with hyperscribe. In a piano score I was doing, I had a right hand part for color my world that I wanted to add a bass part too. I playing while hearing the right hand part. It sounded perfect as I was playing it, yet when I looked at the result - and played it back - the result was off by one eighth. So the part I played in started with an eighth note rest. Aargh. I've had similar problems trying to just play a piece into Finale with hyperscribe. What stupid little thing have I missed? Andrew, are you, by any chance, using a software synthesizer like VSC (Virtual Sound Canvas) for playback? If you are, there is a delay when using hyperscribe. The only way I know of around it is to go into Midi setup and change the playback to your soundcard. Some other programs (Like Band-Ina-a-Box) can be configured to adjust for the delay but I have not seen ant way to do that in Finale. I use Speedy most of the time, but I will often use Hyperscribe for passages with simple rhythms (one with not many notes faster than eighth notes). Ray Horton ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] A question about cues
(I hope I have replied correctly! New email address, new email software, new list options for me, etc.) I would think any transposition of any sort in alto clef would be particularly confusing. Just put the cuein treble clef in Bb. If it is extremely lowwrite it 8va(labeled or not, depending on how exact you wantthe cue tobe). I assume that the cue is not intended to be played. If it IS intended to be played if needed, then, obviously, it should be notated so the sax player can read it (Bb treble clef). In older orchestral parts, cues not intended to be played are often leftin the cued instruments key, but, IMO, this isan excellent openingfor Murphy's Law. Ray Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra (arranger, reluctant composer) Darcy asked: Hi gang,I am currently working on transposing a part originally written for oboe to soprano sax. On the original, the viola cues are written in alto clef, but I'm not sure I should keep this in the transposed version. I definitely want to put the cues in the player's key -- so having a cue in alto clef (transposed to Bb) might be somewhat confusing. While the goal here is to be as faithful as possible to the original, I think I might be better off putting the viola cues in treble clef (i.e., the sax player's clef). Opinions, anyone?- Darcy-[EMAIL PROTECTED]Boston MA___Finale mailing list[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
