Re: [Finale] Rhythm notation preference
There are no real rules as in a system which has been agreed upon by international convention. These are simply general principles that one sees in engraved music. Many people tout them as being rules simply because that makes more people tend to follow them and lends an air of authority to them. And the main principle of music notation is that the composer's intention be made as clear as possible to the performer. Sometimes that requires showing the third beat of a 4-beat measure and sometimes that requires obscuring that third beat. But since most musicians are used to seeing that third beat, many have a hard time when it is obscured. Reading books on notation will reveal many common principles that most professional engravers and copiests have followed. Gardner Read's book and Ted Ross's book are good for traditional music and Kurt Stone's book discusses music notation in the 20th century. But in the final analysis, what the composer wants should be followed if he/she has a good reason for wanting a particular notation. The same rhythm, when notated in different ways, often receives different interpretations, so it is important that the proper interpretation be represented by the notation. Brad Beyenhof wrote: On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 08:32 AM, Christopher BJ Smith wrote: At 5:58 PM -0400 8/03/03, Darcy James Argue wrote: The same exception RE: double-dotted notes cited above is also (sometimes) used -- i.e. a double-dotted quarter followed by a sixteenth. Again, not a universally beloved exception, but you see it often enough. Strictly speaking, in that system double-dotted notes are not used, as dotted rest are not used either. They are considered archaic. Is there a name for this system to which references are being made? Is there an alternative? Basically, I've already taken to heart most of these rules as merely common engraving practice, and not thought of them as a part of some disparate system of rules. As a side note: though I follow the Rule of Four and eschew dotted rests, double-dotted notes are no problem in most jobs I've done (as long as they're college-to-professional level pieces). Usually, quarter-tied-to-eighth-tied-to-sixteenth looks really cluttered on a 20- to 30-staff wind band score and a double-dotted note is much cleaner. - Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale . -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Rhythm notation preference
At 11:25 PM -0400 8/04/03, Giz Bowe wrote: Thanks for all the input, guys -- I enjoyed reading all the replies. How formalized is the rule of 4 6? Or is it informal? Well, it's as informal as all the rules are, which are just common practice among similar-minded musicians. In a private exchanges with Los Angeles musicians, I was surprised to learn that there are coast-to-coast differences in the notation systems in the jazz-show-film-pop world (albeit minor), like where measure numbers appear, how often clef and key signatures are reiterated, boxing directions, how certain articulations are interpreted, and rhythmic notation like the question we are discussing. I gather that Montreal (where I am) practices are largely based on the New York system. I gather that in certain contexts it might not be applicable. Yes, you are right. In some modern systems beaming and beat division indicate phrase groupings, like 3+2+3 or some other odd groupings, and beaming across the barline is common. In jazz and popular notation where changing hemiola-type figures are normal, that kind of notation is rare. Even Latin music based on a clave, where you would think the regular syncopated accents would warrant odd beaming, uses standard rule-of-four grouping. I understand that in a situation which may involve a repetition of a certain rhythm, you might well wish to notate it as dotted quarter -- quarter -- dotted quarter to emphasize the repetition, and to ultimately make it easier to read extended passages using that rhythm. Like a conga cell, dotted quarter-dotted quarter-quarter? I wouldn't, unless the ground pulse was really regular and really odd, and too hard to read in standard division. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Rhythm notation preference
From: Javier Ruiz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Another example may be dotted quarter - dotted quarter - quarter It is very common too and it does not show the third beat. Mis dos centimos de euro. Javier Ruiz. I agree. - In Music Notation Gardner Read says: 'In modern practice, a consistent syncopated figure notated as 2+3+3 (quarter - dotted quarter - dotted quarter) would be entirely correct'. The conclusion must be that 3+3+2 and 3+2+3 is consistent too. Kind regards Ole Buck ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Rhythm notation preference
On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 06:54 PM, Christopher BJ Smith wrote: At 1:10 PM -0400 8/04/03, Darcy James Argue wrote: And I'm conflicted about what to do with long quarter notes on the and of one or the and of three. Obviously, if the rhythm is eighth-quarter-eighth, it's not a good idea to make it four eighths with the middle pair tied -- that's both overly fussy and harder to read. But if it's eighth *rest* - quarter - eighth, for the sake of consistency I should probably make that eighth rest - eighth tied to eighth - eighth, so that the entry on the offbeat is a flagged eighth note. But I haven't actually been doing that -- I've been going with eighth rest - quarter - eighth -- just out of force of habit, I guess. That's what I would do, as following the Rule of Four does not require you to mark the second beat by tying two eighth notes. Oh, I know. The Rule of Four is also just fine with a dotted eighth on the and of one and the and of three, as well, but I don't like those. I find they tend to be stumbling blocks for sight-reading. My theory is that players get used to seeing an entry on an offbeat as a flagged eighth -- since most of the time, that's how it shows up, and so it becomes a handy visual shorthand even though it can sometimes lead you astray. When players are tired, distracted, or otherwise not concentrating (and how often does *that* happen? [grin]), when their entrance is on a quarter (or a dotted quarter) on the and of one or the and of three, they tend to assume it's an onbeat at first glance, and some of 'em usually flub it. At least, that's my experience -- which is why I prefer to break those figures up with a tie, even though it's not strictly necessary. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston MA ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Rhythm notation preference
At 11:52 PM +0100 8/03/03, Javier Ruiz wrote: Queridos compañeros, Another example may be dotted quarter - dotted quarter - quarter It is very common too and it does not show the third beat. And yet, despite being common, in the system I am talking about it would be notated as dotted quarter, eighth tied to quarter, quarter. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Rhythm notation preference
At 5:58 PM -0400 8/03/03, Darcy James Argue wrote: The same exception RE: double-dotted notes cited above is also (sometimes) used -- i.e. a double-dotted quarter followed by a sixteenth. Again, not a universally beloved exception, but you see it often enough. Strictly speaking, in that system double-dotted notes are not used, as dotted rest are not used either. They are considered archaic. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Rhythm notation preference
At 3:51 PM -0400 8/03/03, Giz Bowe wrote: I'm editing a solo transcription for a friend, and found this rhythm: 4/4 | dotted quarter -- quarter -- dotted quarter | It adds up to four beats, but I found it threw me a bit; apparently I haven't seen it often, and wondered if it's just me. My inclination is to re-notate it, particularly as the middle quarter has a dot accent -- too many dots! I've also heard there is a rule of thumb that the arranger should notate syncopations in such a way that the 3rd beat of a 4/4 bar will be apparent. Yes, when the smallest subdivision is eighth notes, as it is in your example. (If there were sixteenth notes, you would have to be able to see EVERY beat in the bar.) If the middle note was to be played long, it would be written as dotted quarter -- eighth tied to eighth -- dotted quarter but since there is no reason to write a tied note stacatto, your example should be notated dotted quarter -- eighth -- eighth rest -- dotted quarter ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Rhythm notation preference
At 5:29 PM -0400 8/03/03, Giz Bowe wrote: Can you give me the formal, or more complete rule? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but am truly curious. Rule of Four (applies to duple metre): The eye has to be able to see 4 of whatever the smallest subdivision is. So in 4/4, if the smallest subdivision in the measure is quarter notes then you only have to show the 1st beat (which is automatic anyway!) and can obscure beat 3, as in quarter - half - quarter But as soon as you have even one eighth note in the measure, then you have to be able to see the 3rd beat, so that groupings of 4 eighth notes are apparent (both in beaming and in tying). If you have sixteenth notes, then you have to show every quarter note, and you can extrapolate to smaller subdivisions as well. In triple metre it gets more complicated, but in most cases changing the rule to the Rule Of Six makes it work for eighth notes in 3/4 or groups of triplets. In this same transcription, I just came across a dotted half-rest followed by a quarter note; it fills the measure, but I prefer half-rest quarter-rest quarter-note. Right. In this same tradition, no dotted rests are used, and rests are never syncopated (quarter rest starting on the and of one, for example, or half rest starting on beat 2). ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Rhythm notation preference
On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 12:23 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: At 11:09 AM 8/4/03 -0400, Christopher BJ Smith wrote: But as soon as you have even one eighth note in the measure, then you have to be able to see the 3rd beat, so that groupings of 4 eighth notes are apparent (both in beaming and in tying). This rule belongs with music of certain eras, roughly that Bach-to-Bartok range (along with music rooted in those styles). Many (Most? I haven't kept up.) transcriptions of earlier music into modern notation avoid the syncopatedness implicit to tied notes by using complete note values. And newer compositions, depending on the style, use conventional-looking notations merely as placekeepers. So before making a final decision on changing a rhythmic grouping, be sure to check with the composer/arranger as to the purpose of the notational indication. It was pretty clear from the context -- at least to me -- that Giz's original question involved a jazz transcription. At least, that was the underlying assumption behind what Chris and I said. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston MA ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Rhythm notation preference
On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 01:10 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Of course, if you're going to use them, you can only use them on beats one and three, so the reverse rhythm -- sixteenth - double-dotted eighth -- is a big no-no.- Darcy Well, actually, that's a big no-no as well, but the rhythm I *meant* to write is sixteenth - double-dotted quarter. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston MA ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Rhythm notation preference
At 12:56 PM 8/4/03 -0400, Darcy James Argue wrote: It was pretty clear from the context -- at least to me -- that Giz's original question involved a jazz transcription. At least, that was the underlying assumption behind what Chris and I said. I hadn't kept the original post, so I wasn't sure. I just remembered something about a transcription being edited, and didn't recall what the style was -- and after reading a few posts, that little mental bell rang that said transcription and I thought maybe early music transcription. Definitely jazz transcriptions want to know the beat and the syncopation, so I heartily endorse the rule for that work -- though not necessarily for jazz/Latin transcriptions where syncopation of an underlying, repetitive rhythm can be more simply notated without ties. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Rhythm notation preference
Oh my my! My piece for piano Foggy night on board the Potemkim uses triple dotted half notes and rests and it is in 4/4. I knew it was a bad piece but no so much ;) Javier Ruiz At 5:58 PM -0400 8/03/03, Darcy James Argue wrote: The same exception RE: double-dotted notes cited above is also (sometimes) used -- i.e. a double-dotted quarter followed by a sixteenth. Again, not a universally beloved exception, but you see it often enough. Strictly speaking, in that system double-dotted notes are not used, as dotted rest are not used either. They are considered archaic. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Rhythm notation preference
At 1:10 PM -0400 8/04/03, Darcy James Argue wrote: And I'm conflicted about what to do with long quarter notes on the and of one or the and of three. Obviously, if the rhythm is eighth-quarter-eighth, it's not a good idea to make it four eighths with the middle pair tied -- that's both overly fussy and harder to read. But if it's eighth *rest* - quarter - eighth, for the sake of consistency I should probably make that eighth rest - eighth tied to eighth - eighth, so that the entry on the offbeat is a flagged eighth note. But I haven't actually been doing that -- I've been going with eighth rest - quarter - eighth -- just out of force of habit, I guess. That's what I would do, as following the Rule of Four does not require you to mark the second beat by tying two eighth notes. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Rhythm notation preference
At 9:33 AM -0700 8/04/03, Brad Beyenhof wrote: As a side note: though I follow the Rule of Four and eschew dotted rests, double-dotted notes are no problem in most jobs I've done (as long as they're college-to-professional level pieces). Usually, quarter-tied-to-eighth-tied-to-sixteenth looks really cluttered on a 20- to 30-staff wind band score and a double-dotted note is much cleaner. The Rule of Four would make that quarter tied to dotted eighth. We only need to see the quarter beat, not the eighth beat. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Rhythm notation preference
I'm editing a solo transcription for a friend, and found this rhythm: 4/4 | dotted quarter -- quarter -- dotted quarter | It adds up to four beats, but I found it threw me a bit; apparently I haven't seen it often, and wondered if it's just me. My inclination is to re-notate it, particularly as the middle quarter has a dot accent -- too many dots! I've also heard there is a rule of thumb that the arranger should notate syncopations in such a way that the 3rd beat of a 4/4 bar will be apparent. What do y'all think? ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Rhythm notation preference
On Sunday, August 3, 2003, at 03:51 PM, Giz Bowe wrote: I'm editing a solo transcription for a friend, and found this rhythm: 4/4 | dotted quarter -- quarter -- dotted quarter | It adds up to four beats, but I found it threw me a bit; apparently I haven't seen it often, and wondered if it's just me. My inclination is to re-notate it, particularly as the middle quarter has a dot accent -- too many dots! This notation is incorrect, and just awful, to boot -- *especially* if, as you say, the middle note has a staccato accent and is meant to be played short. If that's the case, it should be dotted quarter - eighth - eighth rest - dotted quarter; or (my preference) dotted quarter - eighth - eighth rest - eighth tied to quarter (I don't like dotted offbeats -- in 4/4 I only use dotted quarters on beats one and three, never on the and of one or the and of three). If the middle note were not short, you would still need to show the middle of the bar, so you'd want quarter - eighth tied to eighth - dotted eighth; or dotted quarter - eighth tied to eighth - eighth tied to quarter. I've also heard there is a rule of thumb that the arranger should notate syncopations in such a way that the 3rd beat of a 4/4 bar will be apparent. Sort of. The rules are actually a little more complicated than that but that's not a bad generalization. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston MA ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Rhythm notation preference
At 05:14 PM 8/3/03, you wrote: If that's the case, it should be dotted quarter - eighth - eighth rest - dotted quarter; or (my preference) dotted quarter - eighth - eighth rest - eighth tied to quarter (I don't like dotted offbeats -- in 4/4 I only use dotted quarters on beats one and three, never on the and of one or the and of three). That's my preference, also, and I've already re-notated the offending rhythm that way. I've also heard there is a rule of thumb that the arranger should notate syncopations in such a way that the 3rd beat of a 4/4 bar will be apparent. Sort of. The rules are actually a little more complicated than that but that's not a bad generalization. Can you give me the formal, or more complete rule? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but am truly curious. In this same transcription, I just came across a dotted half-rest followed by a quarter note; it fills the measure, but I prefer half-rest quarter-rest quarter-note. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Rhythm notation preference
On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Giz Bowe wrote: I'm editing a solo transcription for a friend, and found this rhythm: 4/4 | dotted quarter -- quarter -- dotted quarter | It adds up to four beats, but I found it threw me a bit; If it threw you, it will probably throw others too. Re-write the rhythm! Larry ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Rhythm notation preference
Giz Bowe writes: I'm editing a solo transcription for a friend, and found this rhythm: 4/4 | dotted quarter -- quarter -- dotted quarter | It adds up to four beats, but I found it threw me a bit; apparently I haven't seen it often, and wondered if it's just me. My inclination is to re-notate it, particularly as the middle quarter has a dot accent -- too many dots! I've also heard there is a rule of thumb that the arranger should notate syncopations in such a way that the 3rd beat of a 4/4 bar will be apparent. What do y'all think? My feeling is that ordinarily the third beat should be showing in 4/4, especially in music before 1930 or so. However, if the rhythm seems to set up a 3+2+3 / 8 metrical pattern long enough, then q. q q. might be OK. Of course, if the whole piece or a really large section has that metrical division, it would be helpful to use 3+2+3 / 8 as the time signature. Hal -- Harold Owen 2830 Emerald St., Eugene, OR 97403 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit my web site at: http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~hjowen FAX: (509) 461-3608 ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Rhythm notation preference
On Sunday, August 3, 2003, at 05:29 PM, Giz Bowe wrote: Sort of. The rules are actually a little more complicated than that but that's not a bad generalization. Can you give me the formal, or more complete rule? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but am truly curious. Officially, you are supposed to break beams and/or rhythmic values in groups of four -- i.e., four consecutive eighth notes on beats one or three get beamed together, four consecutive sixteenths on any beat get beamed together, eight consecutive 32nd notes should have a secondary beam break in the middle, etc. But the same principle holds even when there are only three, two or one notes of that duration -- i.e., the smallest rhythmic value determines the beaming (and the breaking of single held notes into two tied notes). So, when there are no eighth notes in a bar, there's no need to show the third beat. Dotted half - quarter; quarter - half - quarter; and quarter - dotted quarter are all just fine. As soon as you have even one eighth note in a bar, you need to show the third beat. At least in theory. There are a couple of common exceptions that most people consider OK -- double-dotted half - eighth; or eighth - quarter - quarter - quarter - eighth. (Although I don't like that one at all, and some people don't like the double-dotted notation either.) As soon as you have even one sixteenth note in a bar, you need to show every beat *in whichever half of the bar* contains the sixteenth. In other words, four sixteenths - quarter - eighth - quarter - eighth is fine, but two sixteenths - quarter - two sixteenths - etc... is not. The same exception RE: double-dotted notes cited above is also (sometimes) used -- i.e. a double-dotted quarter followed by a sixteenth. Again, not a universally beloved exception, but you see it often enough. In this same transcription, I just came across a dotted half-rest followed by a quarter note; it fills the measure, but I prefer half-rest quarter-rest quarter-note. The dotted half rest is also incorrect. Dotted rests are only used in compound meters, like 12/8. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston MA - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston MA ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Rhythm notation preference
Dear folks, There are a few exceptions to the show the third beat in 4/4 that don't seem to throw players: quarter-half-quarter and eighth-quarter-quarter-quarter-eighth (although some would not allow the second of these). Hal -- Harold Owen 2830 Emerald St., Eugene, OR 97403 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit my web site at: http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~hjowen FAX: (509) 461-3608 ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Rhythm notation preference
Queridos compañeros, Another example may be dotted quarter - dotted quarter - quarter It is very common too and it does not show the third beat. Mis dos centimos de euro. Javier Ruiz. Dear folks, There are a few exceptions to the show the third beat in 4/4 that don't seem to throw players: quarter-half-quarter and eighth-quarter-quarter-quarter-eighth (although some would not allow the second of these). Hal ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
