RE: The Panic Room, was: RE: [Finale] Re: Registration codes and copyright

2003-08-14 Thread Tobias Giesen
 ... a clause which removes all liability from the 
 publisher of the product ...

In addition, if software activation is stopped after
a few years, then that is purposeful sabotage on the part
of the publisher, and no license agreement in the world
can make that legal. They are liable, sure they are!

And they know it, too. And because they know it, they 
won't dare acting that way. Besides, as long as they 
exist, they don't want a scandal.

Cheers,
Tobias

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RE: The Panic Room, was: RE: [Finale] Re: Registration codes and copyright

2003-08-14 Thread Dennis Bathory-Kitsz
At 02:19 PM 8/9/03 +0200, Tobias Giesen wrote:
 but most end-user licenses I have ever read contain 
 a clause which removes all liability from the 
 publisher of the product.

Yeah but those clauses aren't valid, they are void. At 
least in Europe, but it should be similar in the States.

Most contract law is state law in the US. You'll see that in the Finale
license, it's done under the laws of the State of Minnesota.

We don't have, what do you call them?, harmonization issues here. :)

Related story about contract law where I learned the hard way: I had a book
published in the early 1980s called The Custom TRS-80. It sold very well,
and in fact I had a year's worth of income from the royalties. It sold so
well (along with other books in the series) that the California publisher
very cagily overprinted the third printing heavily. He went bankrupt from
the expenses of doing that, and the books were sold as scrap to a company
in Nevada. The contracts to book royalites were all voided because it
crossed state lines. The point? He owned the company in Nevada, too, and
continued to sell the book at full price for a decade afterwards, paying
not a single penny in royalties to me. And the California bankruptcy meant
that only 3% of my earned royalties were paid to me in the court
distribution -- about $500 of the $17,000.

Dennis




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RE: The Panic Room, was: RE: [Finale] Re: Registration codes and copyright

2003-08-14 Thread Tobias Giesen
 but most end-user licenses I have ever read contain 
 a clause which removes all liability from the 
 publisher of the product.

Yeah but those clauses aren't valid, they are void. At 
least in Europe, but it should be similar in the States.

Cheers,
Tobias

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Re: The Panic Room, was: RE: [Finale] Re: Registration codes and copyright

2003-08-14 Thread Jari Williamsson
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz writes:

 Now, not too tangentially: Tobias, you seem certain Makemusic would have to
 support this product into the future. Why? 

The FAQ that Tyler posted here should answer this, read the section 
about the maintenance release.


Best regards,

Jari Williamsson
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Re: The Panic Room, was: RE: [Finale] Re: Registration codes and copyright

2003-08-11 Thread David H. Bailey
I can't find finale's end-user license, but most end-user licenses I 
have ever read contain a clause which removes all liability from the 
publisher of the product.  Here are some quotes from Finale 3.5 upgrade:

[bracketed words are my remarks.]

2. OWNERSHIP. [snip]  This License Agreement is NOT [their capitals] a 
sale of the SOFTWARE. [this clarifies that you have no property rights 
in anything other than the documentation and the media the program ships 
on -- you have no property rights at all in the software itself.]

SOFTWARE DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY AND LIMITED WARRANTY FOR MEDIA

[after the usual software and documentation are provided on an as is 
basis paragraph and a warranty on the media only]

Neither CODA nor anyone else involved in the creation, production, 
licensing or deliver of the SOFTWARE and documentation mateirals shall 
be liable for any indirect, incidental, consequential, or special 
damages (including damages for lost profits or the like) resulting from 
breach of warranty or any type of claim arising from the use or 
inability to use the SOFTWARE, even if CODA has been advised of the 
possibility of such damages.  In any event, CODA's responsibility for 
direct damages is never more than the purchase price and license fee you 
paid for the FINALE package.
[snip]
EXCEPT AS EXPRESSLY PROVIDED ABOVE, CODA MUSIC TECHNOLOGY MAKE SNO 
WARRANTIES REGARDING THE SOFTWARE, DOCUMENTATION MATERIALS, OR MDEIA, 
EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDED BUT NOT LIMITED TO WARRANTIES OF 
MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  No oral or 
written information or advice provided by CODA, its dealers, 
distributors, agents, or employees shall create any other warranty or 
increase in any way the scope of this warranty, and you may NOT rely on 
such information or advice.  THIS LIMITED WARRANTY GIVES YOU SPECIFIC 
LEGAL RIGHTS AND YOU MAY ALSO HAVE OTHER RIGHTS THAT VARY FROM STATE TO 
STATE.

[end quotes from license agreement.]

So basically Coda has said that it has absolutely NO obligation to 
continue to keep the software working.  It also states that anything 
that any employee says does NOT change its obligations under the 
warranty (sorry, Tyler!)

So, again, what legal basis would we have to take MakeMusic or its 
successors to court to try to force them to continue to provide 
activation codes for Finale2004 forever?

Even if they DON'T go out of business, they can still pull the plug on 
any earlier version they care to at any time, so inspite of Tyler's 
assurances (and the end-user license has told us all what it thinks of 
any employee statements) that MakeMusic won't use the activation code 
issue to force upgrades (Gee, you bought a new machine? 
Congratulations, but I am sorry we don't issue activation codes for 
Finale2004 anymore.  I can offer you a fantastic upgrade to Finale2008, 
though, for a mere $180 and we can get you activated within seconds!) 
there is nothing in the law and nothing in the only end-user license I 
could find from Coda (anybody wonder why software publishers have gone 
to electronic end-user licenses that we have to click I AGREE before the 
installation can continue?) that obligates them to continue to keep 
older versions working.

Remember also that we all own licenses to use FINALE, with no version 
number being shown.  So we don't have a license specifically to use 
Finale2004, we have a license to use Finale.  So they are within their 
rights to try to force us to upgrade to a current version of Finale if 
they choose to.  And it seems as if they have the perfect mechanism now!





Tobias Giesen wrote:

Now, not too tangentially: Tobias, you seem certain Makemusic 
would have to support this product into the future. Why? Can 
you point me to any law which requires Makemusic or its successor 
to provide license keys? ...


I don't think it would require a specific law. They sell you the software,
grant you a license that's not limited in time. So you have two contracts: a
sales contract, and a license agreement. Neither are limited to a specific
CPU; you are free to carry the software product from one PC generation to
the next.
If Coda stopped the software activation at some point in the future, they
would 

a) void the original sales contract
b) cancel the license agreement
c) violate your property rights
   etc.
This would be against all rules of trading. I don't know the specific laws
in the U.S., but they're sure there.
Cheers,
Tobias
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--
David H. Bailey
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RE: The Panic Room, was: RE: [Finale] Re: Registration codes and copyright

2003-08-10 Thread Dennis Bathory-Kitsz
At 09:31 AM 8/9/03 +0200, Tobias Giesen wrote:
If Coda stopped the software activation at some point in the future, they
would 
a) void the original sales contract
b) cancel the license agreement
c) violate your property rights
   etc.
This would be against all rules of trading.

They are indemnified to the cost of refunding your purchase price by
license agreement and force majeure, and indemnified against consequential
damages, which are rarely awarded except for some sort of reckless behavior
-- which requires significant legal maneuvering, time, and expense to
prove. Corporate misbehavior is very difficult to prove here, but from your
statements, I'm guessing it's very different in Germany. But keep in mind
that the contract is bound only by the laws of the US State of Minnesota
(unless you have a different agreement packaged with your copy).

Dennis








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