Re: [Flightgear-devel] Calculating free stick position and forces
On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 12:38 AM, Jon S. Berndt jonsber...@comcast.netwrote: Actually, Alan is correct, as Ron also mentioned in the JSBSim-devel list, where this topic is cross-posted. I think it is quite possible that we can already do this using function definitions in the aerodynamics section of an aircraft spec. file. There is no perceptible performance hit to using function definitions. The functions are implemented in C++, are fairly efficient, and calculations are cached per-frame. I'd prefer not to see possibly type-specific hard-coded calculations going into the codebase - I think we can implement this in the current codebase using existing capabilities. Jon I agree, there are already enough tools in the config file for defining the stick force. But how can we trim the stick force? Would it be possible to use the autopilot functions? or a new trim mode is needed in the code? Fabián -- Create and publish websites with WebMatrix Use the most popular FREE web apps or write code yourself; WebMatrix provides all the features you need to develop and publish your website. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ms-webmatrix-sf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Improving the elevator modeling
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 11:05 AM, cas...@mminternet.com wrote: Hi, ... The only parts lacking in the JSBSim as best as I can determine are some numbers to define the elevator aero coefficents, hinge moments as a function of tail alpha and deflection, and changes in the aspect ratio of the wing as a function of flap deflections that will be used to calculate the downwash for a specific wing configuration and flight condition Any comments?? John John, You might try posting this on the JSBSim developer list. I know that Agostino De Marco has done some modeling of hinge moments using JSBSim. I seem to recall that he wrote an AIAA paper that included hinge moment modeling, etc. Downwash can probably be calculated as a function (perhaps as a function of lift force generated), and a local alpha for the elevator can be calculated that accounts for the downwash angle. Jon I can do that ;-) Does Agostino follow/post to the JSBSim list? Would like to exchange ideas with him. Any particular reason why his work has not migrated into the JSBSim code? John The elevator hinge moment (say, elev_hinge) can be modeled with the JSBSim functions in the config file (or better in a separate system file. Then a new trim mode should be coded, which would trim not only the aircraft but also the elevator hinge moment (using the defined elev_hinge parameter). I don't see right now any other way to do this, but I hope there is an easier one. Agostino's work could bring some light. Fabián -- Create and publish websites with WebMatrix Use the most popular FREE web apps or write code yourself; WebMatrix provides all the features you need to develop and publish your website. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ms-webmatrix-sf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] NASA 3D Models
What a coincidence! I discovered those models just yesterday! I managed to open the Shuttle model in Blender, so I guess it would be possible to have them exported to Flightgear. BTW, here's the link to the site: http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/3d_resources/models.html Regards, Fabián On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Jon S. Berndt jonsber...@comcast.netwrote: Can these be converted to the format that FlightGear uses - particularly the crawler, the VAB, and the launch complex - as well as the launch vehicle models? Jon -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Optimal desktop processor/graphic card
Hi, I'm planning to buy a new desktop PC and I want to be sure I will be able to run FG smoothly (I may also be doing some video editing, but that's for another forum). Which processor/graphic card will be the optimal combination, without braking my bank account? I was thinking on an Intel i5 (dual core or quad core?) Do I need the i7 series? For the graphics I'm thinking about the ATI Radeon HD 5670 or 5770; the 5770 is $100 more expensive, do I really need it? Are cheaper cards enough? Thank you. Fabián -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Operating System
Hi, I'm planning to buy a new PC with operating system. Is there any OS that is not supported by FlightGear? I want to be sure I'll be able to compile and run FlightGear. Is Windows 7 64-bit supported? Or should I better stay with Windows 7 32-bit. Please Linux people don't laugh at me :( Thank you! Fabian -- Download Intel#174; Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airliners and Auto Pitch-Trim
Hi, I have no experience in FGFS capabilities in terms of autopilot and trimming, but I do have some in JSBSim, so I will refer only to that FDM, and I hope this will be relevant to this discussion. First, I think it would be good to have this in mind: there are two types of trim: 1. Aircraft pitching moment trim, which refers to making the aircraft pitching moment zero, and 2. stick force trim, which, obviously, refers to zeroing the pilot stick forces. As Heiko has already pointed, airliners and most business jets use the stabilizer for pitching moment trim. In JSBSim this CAN be modeled as follows: channel name=Pitch : : summer name=Stabilizer Trim Sum inputfcs/pitch-trim-cmd-norm/input !-- Note that here is the trim variable that comes from the trimming algorithm -- clipto min-1/min max 1/max /clipto /summer : : This will yield a fcs/stabilizer-trim-sum that can be mapped into a fcs/stabilizer-pos-deg (using an aerosurface_scale) which can be then used to calculate the tail angle of attack (alpha+stab-downwash) and from there the tail lift and/or pitching moment (of course this aerodynamic data is not always easy to achieve). Regarding the second type of trim (stick force), as far as I know JSBSim does not have the capability for this yet, although it may be possible to build that on the base of existing trimming options). For manually operated elevators, the elevator angle for zero force will depend on hinge moments (affected by alpha_tail, dynamic pressure, etc.), and will normally will be different from 0 degrees. For powered elevators (as in modern or high performance aircraft) zero elevator deflection will give zero stick force (by means of an artificial feeling system). For how all said above can be applied in FGFS...well, somebody familiar with that part would need to jump in. I hope this was not more confusing than helpful... Fabian On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 7:29 AM, Innis Cunningham inn...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi Guys I think you will find on all Boeing aircraft if the elevator is out of neutral for a set amount of time the horizontal stabilizer runs to return the elevator to the null position.Hence retriming the aircraft.Hence the name stabilizer trim I think also you will find that the tab on the elevator is not a trim tab but moves in the opposite direction to the elevator movement. So until we get a working FDM for the horizontal stabilizer in FG anything else will be a hack. Cheers Innis Hi, I just tried with the SenceaII and both Ti and elevator filter influence this. Great, thanks to all for the help! Cheers Heiko If you have a pid-simple-controller, try increasing Ti, it slows down the action. Hi Torsten, That sounds like it could be done without nasal just in the autopilot file. I guess the speed of the trim-pitch-channel can be changed with the filter? (The 737-300 has a speed-trim at certain situations) Kind regards Heiko Hi Heiko, the auto-pitch-trim channel moves the elevator trim to return the elevator into the neutral position while the pitch-channel moves the elevator to change attitude. Or a bit more technical: The auto-pitch-trim-channel compares the elevator-pos-norm to a reference of zero and adjusts elevator-trim The pitch-channel compares e.g. current pitch with a reference of some calculated target pitch and adjusts elevator-pos Usually the pitch-trim channel is much slower than the elevator channel. HTH, Torsten -- Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel __ Do You Yahoo!? Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. http://mail.yahoo.com -- Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Flightgear in industry use
On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 6:26 PM, Arnt Karlsen a...@c2i.net wrote: On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:50:14 -0500, Curtis wrote in message ef5fc9920910270650p21349d36x27b990b1a8ea3...@mail.gmail.com: On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 5:46 AM, Leonardo Fabian Grodek wrote: Hi, Looking for information on autopilots I've found this: http://www.cloudcaptech.com/piccolo_II.shtm#software In the list of downloadable software you can see Flightgear listed, with credits. I've also found this: http://www.cloudcaptech.com/download/Piccolo/Piccolo%20Documentation/Version%202.1.1%20Docs/Software/Piccolo%20Simulator.pdf Those more active than me in FG development (almost everybody but me indeed...) could feel proud of their work by seeing FG recommended by industry leaders. I got to see a Cloudcap Piccolo flying on big UAV earlier this fall (16' wing span, 150 lbs beast of an airplane). This was an older piccolo. I hear v2 is even better. Good stuff! (of course the uav stuff I'm working will be much better once it is finished.) :-) Curt. ..aye. One problem, they provide FG binaries, but no source??? http://www.cloudcaptech.com/download/Piccolo/FlightGear/ -- Well, under Piccolo Systems -- Downloads -- Piccolo Setup and User Guides, there's a link to this Piccolo Simulator document: http://www.cloudcaptech.com/download/Piccolo/Piccolo%20Documentation/Version%202.1.1%20Docs/Software/Piccolo%20Simulator.pdf In the Introduction of this document they mention the open source Flightgear simulator. Then, on page 40 they explain how to install Flightgear, and on page 42 they finally discover one of Flightgear's how-to pages. From here the user could get to all Flightgear information and sources. I agree they could have mentioned Flightgear's link for the sources in a more otstanding way; nevertheless, it seems they are not trying to hide the openeness of the simulator; they may have overseen something in the GPL rules, and by presenting to them this issue they would include a link to the Download Source Code page. Fabian -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Flightgear in industry use
Hi, Looking for information on autopilots I've found this: http://www.cloudcaptech.com/piccolo_II.shtm#software In the list of downloadable software you can see Flightgear listed, with credits. I've also found this: http://www.cloudcaptech.com/download/Piccolo/Piccolo%20Documentation/Version%202.1.1%20Docs/Software/Piccolo%20Simulator.pdf Those more active than me in FG development (almost everybody but me indeed...) could feel proud of their work by seeing FG recommended by industry leaders. Fabian -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear on ebay
On 10/21/09, Jon S. Berndt jonsber...@comcast.net wrote: Maybe there ought to be a continuous listing on eBay for FlightGear that we put there, that mentions all the other rebrands, and prominently displays the web site, that it can be downloaded freely. The idea behind the listing wouldn't be to make money, just to set the facts straight. Or something like that ... Jon Excellent idea. Fabian -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Another FlightGear Package for Sale: Illegal?
Interesting, if you look at the very bottom of their home page ( www.flightprosim.com) you can click on Developers; this brings you to a page where you can join the Flight Pro Sim developers !! I did not try to join yet, but would be interesting to see WHO are those developers... Fabian On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 9:20 PM, Martin Spott martin.sp...@mgras.netwrote: Alan Teeder wrote: How about naming and shaming all of these profiteers on the main website, warning newcomers that they can get an up to date version for free (and contribute should they wish). This idea is to my liking :-) Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Single engine takeoff simulation
Well, that seems to be the point: I'm using the released version of FG (1.9.0) since I had trouble in compiling from [CVS] source. I may need to make a new effort to be able to compile CVS versions indeed. Thank you. Fabian On 6/7/09, Victhor victhor.fos...@gmail.com wrote: It is avaliable in all aircraft. Maybe you don't use CVS version? That's very interesting to know John.Coping with the windmilling drag would be the next step. But first I want to be able to cut the engine. Thanks Victhor and Ron. Victhor, I've tried Method 3 but I cannot find any MTBF for the engines; maybe this is only available for a specific aircraft model? which one? In methods 1 or 2, do you refer to cockpit toggles? Ron, do you mean setting /engines/engine[*]/running to 0 in the jsbsim-set file? Fabian On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 11:22 PM, John Wojnaroski cas...@mminternet.com wrote: We've implemented that capability in our version of FG supplied to NASA/Ames as part of the 737NG project; however that requires a totally different approach to modeling the engine, fuel tanks, and engine feed systems. The code is licensed under the GPL and there is a 1.9.1 version. Plus a lot depends on the type or mode of engine failure you wish to simlate and, of course, a BIG difference between losing a piston engine with a windmilling prop versus a turbine engine. JW -- OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization. Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization. Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization. Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization. Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Single engine takeoff simulation
I use Windows XP to (try to) compile FlightGear. Sorry, but no Linux at the moment on my PC ... Now I can imagine most of you nodding ... :) Fabian On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:44 PM, francesco france...@brisa.homelinux.netwrote: Fabian Grodek ha scritto: Well, that seems to be the point: I'm using the released version of FG (1.9.0) since I had trouble in compiling from [CVS] source. I may need to make a new effort to be able to compile CVS versions indeed. Thank you. What O.S. do you use to compile FlightGear ? Fabian -- Brisa Francesco Via Gabelli 16 22077 Olgiate Comasco (CO) http://brisa.homelinux.net france...@brisa.homelinux.net __ / / / / /___ ___ / / __/ / __ / / / __ \/ __ `__ \/ __ \ / /_/ / /___ /_/ / /___/ /_/ / / / / / / /_/ / \/_/\/\/_/ /_/ /_/\/ http://www.gl-como.it My public gpg key: http://minsky.surfnet.nl:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xC67DC12DC4361693 -- OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization. Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization. Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Single engine takeoff simulation
Hello, Is it possible to simulate an engine failure during takeoff (or at any flight stage) in Flightgear? If the answer is positive, is there an aircraft model (with two or more engines, of course) ready to do that? I've tried to set set-running property to false or 0 in the property browser while in flight, but this is ignored, the property retaining its true value. Fabian. -- OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization. Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Single engine takeoff simulation
That's very interesting to know John.Coping with the windmilling drag would be the next step. But first I want to be able to cut the engine. Thanks Victhor and Ron. Victhor, I've tried Method 3 but I cannot find any MTBF for the engines; maybe this is only available for a specific aircraft model? which one? In methods 1 or 2, do you refer to cockpit toggles? Ron, do you mean setting /engines/engine[*]/running to 0 in the jsbsim-set file? Fabian On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 11:22 PM, John Wojnaroski cas...@mminternet.comwrote: We've implemented that capability in our version of FG supplied to NASA/Ames as part of the 737NG project; however that requires a totally different approach to modeling the engine, fuel tanks, and engine feed systems. The code is licensed under the GPL and there is a 1.9.1 version. Plus a lot depends on the type or mode of engine failure you wish to simlate and, of course, a BIG difference between losing a piston engine with a windmilling prop versus a turbine engine. JW -- OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization. Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization. Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Atlas download
Hello, Does anybody know what happened to the Atlas website (atlas.sourceforge.net)? All links (including the downloads) one have been inactive for a few days. Fabian -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] screenshots for v1.9
On 12/23/08, Heiko Schulz aeitsch...@yahoo.de wrote: Hi, Here are some of my screenies for the gallery! Feel free to take one or more of them. http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie/FGFS1.9.0/index.htm Merry Christmas and a happy new year to all! HHS Really stunning pics! I think the pic of the 777 over the airport must be in the screenshots list. Beautifull airplane in excellent lighting. Merry Cristmas and happy new year to you all ! Fabian -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Simgear Build - pthread.h, and alut.h
Hello, Here's a noobie question about Simgear build (in VC++ 2005 Express Edition) I get messages that the files pthread.h and alut.h cannot be found. These files are called by #include statements in sgthread.hxx (v1.9) and sample_openal.cxx (v1.32) and .hxx (v1.23). Where could I find these files (pthread.h and alut.h)? A search in my whole system found nothing. Thank you. Fabian -- SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada. The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simgear Build - pthread.h, and alut.h
Never mind, your tip to google for the libraries helped me a lot, and should help me in the future for almost anything I'll need :) I should have thought about it before. I'll change the path for the alut fil, which I already have in the OpenAl package. Thank you very much. Fabian On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 8:32 PM, Yon Uriarte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, omg, im getting senile, my apologies. Alut is from the OpenAL package. I compile it from the OpenAL SVN repos and have yet to hear a single sound from fg. But it compiles and runs. I use pthreads-2-8-0, precompiled. hth, yon On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Yon Uriarte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, google for pthreads-win32 and freealut (iirc). HTH, regards, yon -- SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada. The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] OpenSceneGraph
Hello, Is there any location other than http://www.openscenegraph.org/projects/osg/wiki/Downloads to get the OpenSceneGraph libraries? The link above is not working. Thank you. Fabian -- SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada. The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] OpenSceneGraph
On 12/8/08, Martin Spott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fabian Grodek wrote: Is there any location other than http://www.openscenegraph.org/projects/osg/wiki/Downloads to get the OpenSceneGraph libraries? The link above is not working. As a last resort you might try: ftp://ftp.ihg.uni-duisburg.de/FlightGear/OSG/ to get a source tree that works with FlightGear - even though it doesn't carry the entire development history (2.7.3 works fine), Martin. -- Thank you. The ftp worked. Fabian -- SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada. The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Tarball of bleeding edge CVS snapshot
On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Alex Buzin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fabian Grodek wrote: I'm using Tortoise. Can somebody tell me what should be the command line? Something like: :pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/var/cvs/FlightGear.. Thank you. Fabian Look at the http://www.flightgear.org/cvs/anoncvs.html Thank you Alex. I was confused by the directory name as appears on those instructions. I thought it was the previous 0-9 version; now I know I was wrong. Ah, and I finally succeeded in checking out ! Thank you again. Fabian -- SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada. The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery download
Hello, I've been trying to checkout FlightGear source code from the CVS Repository but I always get the message: Logging in to :pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:2401:/var/cvs/FlightGear cvs [login aborted]: /var/cvs/FlightGear: no such repository A similar message I get also with Tortise client. Can anybody be so kind as to tell me what am I doing wrong? Thank you very much. Fabian On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 8:50 PM, Fabian Grodek [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 6:52 PM, Martin Spott [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Fabian Grodek wrote: I've been trying to download scenery from flightgear.org since yesterday without success. Is there any problem with the server? If you're familiar with FlightGear CVS, then you might want to build the new 'terrasync' tool and download your Scenery from the pre-defined SVN service. Cheers, Martin. -- Well, I'm not really familiar with FlighGear CVS, but I think I'll get into that soon. I see it's well worth. Thank you. Fabian -- SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada. The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery download
On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 3:11 PM, gerard robin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On vendredi 05 décembre 2008, you wrote: the usual process is cvs -d :pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9 login answering guest to pasword request and cvs -d :pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9 co source to get source Did you do something else ? Though.. now it would be more modern to have an other Folder id ===FlightGear-1.9= :) -- Gérard That was going to be exactly my next question ! I was wondering why the path is to version 0.9. I understand now that it brings me to the most up-to-date source, despite the folder name. Right? BTW, your help was great. For the first time after a few weeks trying I succeeded in checking out the code !! Fabian -- SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada. The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Tarball of bleeding edge CVS snapshot
Hello, I've been unable to open the link to the tarball of the bleeding edge CVS snapshot found in the Download Souce page: http://cvs.flightgear.org/cgi-bin/viewvc/viewvc.cgi/source.tar.gz?view=tar Is something wrong with that page? Fabian - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Tarball of bleeding edge CVS snapshot
On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 5:43 PM, Frederic Bouvier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Csaba Halász a écrit : On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Fabian Grodek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I've been unable to open the link to the tarball of the bleeding edge CVS snapshot found in the Download Souce page: http://cvs.flightgear.org/cgi-bin/viewvc/viewvc.cgi/source.tar.gz?view=tar Is something wrong with that page? Tarball has been disabled for some time, maybe just an omission and not intentional. Would be nice to have it back. Curt? Anyway, the link is wrong. Now cvs is at http://cvs.flightgear.org/viewvc/ -Fred Thanks for all the answers. Unfortunatelly I still cannot download Flightgear current source from the repository. I'm using Tortoise. Can somebody tell me what should be the command line? Something like: :pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/var/cvs/FlightGear.. Thank you. Fabian - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Constant property in a JSBSim model
On 11/29/08, gerard robin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BTW: If you don't want FG with OSG (and Boost) you could try with the cvs preosg which had been kindly updated by Eric with the JSBSim last version. cvs -d :pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9 co -r PRE_OSG_PLIB_20061029 source Thank you very much Gerard. That will help a lot. Nevertheless, I'd like to be able to get the most up-to-date source code, but I'm having trouble connecting to the CVS repository (I use Tortoise, as I do with JSBSim without problems). And if I try through FG web page by clicking: Developers -- Source code -- Download a tarball of the latest Bleeding Edge CVS snapshot ( http://cvs.flightgear.org/cgi-bin/viewvc/viewvc.cgi/source.tar.gz?view=tar) I get that the page cannot be found. What's wrong? Fabian - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Constant property in a JSBSim model
Jon, you're right, again.The FG version I'm running does not support initial values in properties. Indeed, I do not get the console messages as Gérard points, and a look at the codes reveals the reason. Now I see there are more than one good motivation for me to start building my own FG binaries out of the most up-to-date FG source code. Fabian. On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 1:28 AM, gerard robin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On vendredi 28 novembre 2008, Jon S. Berndt wrote: Is this again a factor of using an older version of JSBSim? Check the file, FGFCS.cpp, compared between the latest JSBSim release and the code you are using in FlightGear. If you are using the same code, this should work. Jon And, you should get with FG cvs on your console, during the moading of JSBSim, for instance the following messages Declared properties systems/hook/tailhook-cmd-norm (initial value: 0) systems/hook/tailhook-length-ft (initial value: 4) systems/hook/tailhook-pos-min-deg (initial value: -5) systems/hook/tailhook-pos-max-deg (initial value: 50) systems/hook/tailhook-offset-x-in (initial value: 210.17) systems/hook/tailhook-offset-y-in (initial value: 0) systems/hook/tailhook-offset-z-in (initial value: -31.57) Channel Hook -- Gérard - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Scenery download
I've been trying to download scenery from flightgear.org since yesterday without success. Is there any problem with the server? With the aircraft there is no problem. Fabian - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery download
On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 6:23 PM, Ron Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The main scenery server is often too busy and won't talk to anyone else. Try a mirror, like this one: http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/pub/mirrors/flightgear/ftp/Scenery-1.0.1/ Ron Thank you Ron, the link is talking to me ! Fabian - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery download
On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 6:52 PM, Martin Spott [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Fabian Grodek wrote: I've been trying to download scenery from flightgear.org since yesterday without success. Is there any problem with the server? If you're familiar with FlightGear CVS, then you might want to build the new 'terrasync' tool and download your Scenery from the pre-defined SVN service. Cheers, Martin. -- Well, I'm not really familiar with FlighGear CVS, but I think I'll get into that soon. I see it's well worth. Thank you. Fabian - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Constant property in a JSBSim model
Hello, I have a JSBSim aircraft model in which, at the beginning of the flight_control block, I defined a constant property as follows: property value=0.80fcs/KSelev/property I need this constant to factor a number of coefficients in the aerodynamics section. Although this seems to work in standalone JSBSim simulations, in FlightGear this property gets the value of 0.0. What is the correct way of defining a constant? (seems a very stupid question, so I accept similar kind of answers :) ) Fabian - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] f16 speedbrakes
On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 11:54 PM, Erik Hofman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I also see that (I'm only looking at the speedbrakes effects). Two things are unclear for me: 1. The values of alpha in f16.xml are exactly half those in NASA's TP1538 report. 2. The values of the coefficients are close to each other, but not exactly the same. For CmDsb I'm looking on TP1538 page 58 (PDF page 64) For CLDsb I'm looking on TP1538 page 65 (PDF page 71) Off course you need to transform the data from body axes to wind axes first.. Erik Sorry I've mixed the page numbers on TP1538 paper in my former message. Erik, 1. Transformation from body to wind axes would modify the coefficient values much more than the differences I see; moreover, I see difefrences even at alpha=0 (for CmDsb, -0.0036 in f16.xml instead of -0.0038 in TP1538). 2. The alpha values are still HALF those on TP1538. No matters what our conclusion will be on these issues, I really value the great job you've done in this model, making it a great source for learning JSBSim. Thanks. Fabian - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] f16 speedbrakes
On 9/4/08, Alex Romosan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Erik Hofman writes: Alex Romosan wrote: can you give me a pointer as to where i could get this data? thanks. Search for NASA Technical Paper 1538 i've been looking at it but i can't figure out the relationship between the number in the report and the numbers in the flightgear model. if somebody could explain the magic involved i would really appreciate it. thanks. --alex-- I also see that (I'm only looking at the speedbrakes effects). Two things are unclear for me: 1. The values of alpha in f16.xml are exactly half those in NASA's TP1538 report. 2. The values of the coefficients are close to each other, but not exactly the same. For CmDsb I'm looking on TP1538 page 58 (PDF page 64) For CLDsb I'm looking on TP1538 page 65 (PDF page 71) Ron? Fabian - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] f16 speedbrakes
On 8/30/08, Erik Hofman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... But I don't see any pitching moment effect; from what I see in NASA TP 1538 http://hdl.handle.net/2002/11034 I understand there is a pitch-down effect from the speedbrakes. It looks like you don't have the latest version of the configuration file, it's defined under CmDsb I see. The current f16.xml version in JSBSim repository is 1.82, which indeed has the CmDsb effect. Nevertheless, the current f16.xml version in FlighGear is 1.44, which does not contain the CmDsb component. Since this is a FlightGear mailing list, I was looking only at the file on FG repository. Fabian - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Tutorial: adding Ambient Occlusion layer to aircraft textures
On 8/11/08, Melchior FRANZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just wrote this tutorial. Maybe some modelers have use for it: http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php/Howto:_Add_smooth_(%22Ambient_Occlusion%22)_shadows_in_Blender Note that it's not linked to from the Developer Portal ... for the simple reason that I couldn't manage to do it. Would be nice if a wiki expert can link it in. :-) m. Very interesting and instructive. Thank you for that, really. But now that I know how to make that nice effect, I'd like to be able to create the aircraft model first! I'm still quite far from that stage of aircraft modelling. Is there any newbies tutorial on how to build a simple aircraft from scratch in Blender? Fabian - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Tutorial: adding Ambient Occlusion layer to aircraft textures
On 8/12/08, Anders Gidenstam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 12 Aug 2008, Fabian Grodek wrote: Very interesting and instructive. Thank you for that, really. But now that I know how to make that nice effect, I'd like to be able to create the aircraft model first! I'm still quite far from that stage of aircraft modelling. Is there any newbies tutorial on how to build a simple aircraft from scratch in Blender? Fabian There is a very good one in French by Emmanuel Baranger: http://helijah.free.fr/flightgear/Creation/Creation-fr.htm An (auto? :) translation to English: http://helijah.free.fr/flightgear/Creation/Creation-en.htm Cheers, Anders Thank you! It looks very instructive too. I'll try that. Fabian - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] OT: AN2 in real life at Klaipeda/Lithuania
Unusual sight! Very nice. Thanks for sharing! Fabian On 7/25/08, Torsten Dreyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Here comes one more summer goodie for pleasure. I just flew into Klaipeda airfield (EYKL) where I found a precious line up of Antonov 2 aircraft. Once again, I only had my mobile phone with me to take some pictures but I think they are worth sharing with you. http://www.t3r.de/flightpics/klaipeda/ See the airport on Google Maps here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=55.71,21.242778spn=0.02,0.02 Enjoy, Torsten - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] [OT] How can I start up in air?
On 6/13/08, Holger Wirtz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, sorry, this is perhaps a little bit off topic but I haven't found any answers the last days: How can I start up at a specific position in air? I found some hints at http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php/Starting_in_the_Air but if I use the SenecaII I have the problem that the magnetos are off, the nose of the plane is turned down to earth and the simulation is in running state. I tried the following: fgfs \ --altitude=5000 \ --heading=270 \ --vc=110 \ --vor=OAK \ --offset-distance=5 \ --offset-azimuth=270 \ --aircraft=SenecaII-jsbsim \ --prop:/controls/engines/engine/throttle=0.8 \ --prop:/controls/engines/engine/magneto=true \ --prop:/controls/engines/engine/magneto[0]=true \ --prop:/controls/engines/engine[0]/magneto=true \ --prop:/controls/engines/engine[1]/magneto=true \ --prop:/controls/engines/engine[0]/magneto[0]=true \ --prop:/controls/engines/engine[1]/magneto[0]=true \ --prop:/controls/engines/engine[0]/starter=true \ --prop:/controls/engines/engine[1]/starter=true \ --enable-freeze \ --geometry=170x100 I need this for learning landings and ILS approaches towards an airport. For this it would be nice when the simulations starts at a well trimmed point... Has anyone an idea how to get this running? Thanks, Holger Holger, There have been some problems with the mailing list during the last days, so I guess that's why you had no answers. You should also add: --in-air so as the simulation starts with the aircraft trimmed in the air at the conditions you defined. I hope this helps. Fabian - Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace. It's the best place to buy or sell services for just about anything Open Source. http://sourceforge.net/services/buy/index.php___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Nasal and FGMultiplayMgr errors
Hello, I've built an aerodynamic model (JSBSim) of an aircraft and in order to test it I took the Honda Jet and changed its native FDM with my model. When I select my aircraft and try to run it in Flightgear v1.0.0, I get the following errors: 1) Nasal runtime error: No such member: runways at glide_slope_tunnel.nas line 96, called from glide_slope_tunnel.nas line 123, called from globals.nas, line 79 and then: 2) FGMultiplayMgr::MP_ProcessData: Domain error and FG halts in a loop. The first error can be worked around by flying first the original HondaJet and turning glide slope off, but I would like to understand why is this happening. The main difference between both aero models is that in my model the PITCH axis consist of a wing-body-vertical-tail + isolated horizontal tail contributions, while the native HondaJet model has a wing-body-vertical-horizontal block. In my FCS I put the fcs/pitch-trim-cmd-norm input in the stabilizer aerosurface (which I defined at the beginning of the FCS block). The original HondaJet run and flies nicelly from the same airport. Any hint on what could be wrong? Thank you. Fabian PS: The HondaJet model is a really good work of Tatsuhiro Nishioka (FDM) and Emmanuel BARANGER. I recommend flying it! - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Aircraft downloads page update
The download page contains other aircrafts with no 3D models: 1. F-15 (NOT F-15C) 2. Marchetti 3. X-24B 4. Shuttle Their FDM are present. I particularly like to have the FDM of these aircraft available, but, at least for the JSBSim models (X24B and Shuttle), they can be (and indeed are) are available from JSBSim CVS, which is a natural place to look for them. This would probably be a new discussion: whether to include or not aircraft without 3D models in the aircraft download page. I vote for NO. Fabian On 12/17/07, Maik Justus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Curt, could you please delete the as350 and the bell206 from the download page? Both have no 3D-model and a very poor FDM. The hornet and the fk9mk2 are done by Emmanuel Baranger (3D) and me (FDM). Melchior: Whats about changing the bo105 status from beta to production? Best regards, Maik Curtis Olson schrieb am 17.12.2007 21:25: Hi, I have updated the aircraft downloads page with all the lastest versions of the available (CVS) aircraft. Many of the new ones do not have a thumbnail image for the web page, and a few of them have been copied from other aircraft and are incorrect. It would be great if people could grab a quick preview image and submit/commit it for the aircraft that don't yet have one. http://www.flightgear.org/Downloads/aircraft/ Thanks, Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ http://baron.flightgear.org/%7Ecurt/ Unique text: 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d - SF.Net email is sponsored by: Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace. It's the best place to buy or sell services for just about anything Open Source. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;164216239;13503038;w?http://sf.net/marketplace ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel - SF.Net email is sponsored by: Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace. It's the best place to buy or sell services for just about anything Open Source. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;164216239;13503038;w?http://sf.net/marketplace ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel - SF.Net email is sponsored by: Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace. It's the best place to buy or sell services for just about anything Open Source. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;164216239;13503038;w?http://sf.net/marketplace___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Aircraft selection summary
In general I agree with Durk. The only issue is that if we drop the Citation we would end-up with no bussiness jet class aircraft, which are high performance machines (compared to props), easier to fly than an airliner (787), and with its own limitations (as compared to fighters - F16). Also a Very Light Jet would be popular nowadays, but I guess there is still no simulation model available yet. Fabian On 12/6/07, Durk Talsma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wasn't able to jump in yesterday, but I've been following the aircraft selection disscussion closely. Below is a first attempt at compiling a new list based on the various suggestion made by everybody, and weighted by me based on my general impression of consensus. 737-300 - 787 I think Jon Berndt suggested keeping the 737, but a few people suggested replacing it by the 787, which seems to be our most complete jetliner. I like to follow that suggestion. A-10 As far as I can see, nobody suggested replacing this aircraft. So I guess we keep it. bf109 - A6M2 (Zero) Suggested by Melchior, for ease of operations use. I think this is a good point. The release will be the first FlightGear hands-on experience for many people and we want to make sure that that first experience is as positive as possible by providing aircraft that have reasonably easy handling characteristics. Not including the bf109 for that reason is by no means a quality judgment of the aircraft itself. bo105 c172 c172p Everybody seems to agree we keep these ones. c310 - SenecaII c310u3a - Beaver I haven't been able to check whether the c310 and c310u3a are really two separate aircraft, or just two different directories with shared components. Anyhow, we unanimously agree that the c310 should be replaced by the Seneca. The suggested replacement above seems to satisfy a few additional requests to have the Beaver included as well. Citation-Bravo - B1900D This seems a reasonable replacement, in particular since the author of the Citation has indicated preferring that is is not part of the base aircraft selection. One minor concern is the ease-of-use issue. IIRC, the B1900D is fired up in cold configuration, and has quite a complicated start-up procedure (things may have changed since I last checked). Complex procedures like these may intimidate first time users. f16 - Lightning Melchior reported that the f16 is broken. I haven't been able to test recently, but seem to recall similar problems about a year ago. Jon Berndt reported finding a possible cause, so chances are the reported problems might get fixed in time. Still, I would like to replace the F16 for other reasons: We need at least an AAR ready aircraft in the base package, and a carrier ready aircraft (these are two very prominent new AI features in this release that we want to showcase). So, how about replacing the f16 with the Ligntning (for AAR scenarios)? j3cub A few people have a suggested dropping the cub, but given its various qualities, I'd like to keep it. Hunter - SeaHawk As a few people suggested, we probably need a carrier ready aircraft, and the seahawk is advertised by the wiki carrier HOWTO as the easiest to master (and I can confirm that its doable. :-) ). p51d - () We already have one other WWII fighter. Do we really want to have two, or do we want to have some other category of aircraft represented? pa28-161 - pa24-250 A few people have suggested replacing the pa28-161 with the pa24-250. I haven't tried any of those recently, but would be open to the suggestion. Rascal - Bochian (or another glider) Many people have suggested dropping the Rascal, for being too specific, and suggested we add a glider. T38 - Concorde () Even though the T38 is probably a category of its own, my general impression is that the broader class this aircraft belongs to (let's say: small high-powered jet powered and highy manouvreable) is a bit overrepresented (with the A10, [f16/lightning], and [Hunter/SeaHawk] being present. Gerard Robin suggested adding the concorde, and there are some aspects of this proposal I like, asit is an altogether different category. However, when trying the condorde yesterday, I saw some performance issues (need to check again), and also found the 3D cockpit instruments to be a bit cartoonesque. This is probably a good candidate for future inclusion, but not quite there yet. ufo Keep as a general exploration tool. Its fun as such. I think everybody agrees. :-) wrightFlyer1903 - Osprey/ DragonFly/maybe another historic aircraft. Most people suggested dropping the wright flyer. A few people suggested adding an ultralight. it would be nice to have a historic aircraft (as in a really old one). During the version number discussion, somebody suggested doing named releases. We could do this implicitly, by changing our choice of historic aircraft from release to release. So 0.9.10 would
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Seneca II tutorials - Torsten
Where can I find the tutorial? Fabian On 12/1/07, Georg Vollnhals [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Torsten, very nice you created a lot of tutorials which really increases the value of your Seneca II as more and more interested people can learn how to do it right. I just want to inform you that I recognized a technical problem with your engine-start(???) tutorial. It is asked to put the mixture and propeller levers at max. position (and I think the throttle, too). I use two knobs (axis) on my Saitek X45 joystick for propeller rpm and mixture and although the stick is calibrated the tutorial does not recognize these MAX positions. If I use the assigned keyboard-keys to assist to get the wished value all is ok and the tutorial proceeds. Visually the levers are at their maximal position (upwards)after using the joystick knobs and do not move further when I press the keys but somehow it seems that the used joystick axis (knobs at the joystick) do not indicate the asked maximal value to the tutorial. As I think that this might not only be a local problem here I would suggest that the tutorial should be a little more tolerant and uses a little reduced maximal value to fit the variations of different controller systems. Just an idea to think about. Regards Georg EDDW - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] FG-to-Matlab/Simulink transmission
I've read some correspondence about this in FlightGear forums but I have not found any clear answer: What's the best way to send data (velocities, aero parameters, forces, moments, aircraft position) to Matlab/Simulink in realtime? My idea is to define an aircraft using JSBSim FDM and fly it in FlightGear, while having the output data plotted (realtime) in Matlab. Asking too much? I know Simulink's Aerospace Blokset has only a ...unidirectional transmission link from Simulink to FlightGear using FlightGear's published net_fdm binary data exchange protocol. (from Simulink help files), but I want transmission in the oposite direction (FG to Matlab). Fabian - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FG-to-Matlab/Simulink transmission
Jon, Yes, I am running on Windows, so I would appreciate it very much if you can send to me that stripchart application. I would like to try that. Anyway, I am willing to try the Windows app you mentioned also, so I would have the chance to choose the most suitable option. (indeed, I am not too much familiar with Simulink). On 8/16/07, Jon S. Berndt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My idea is to define an aircraft using JSBSim FDM and fly it in FlightGear, while having the output data plotted (realtime) in Matlab. Asking too much? Fabian: If you are running on Windows, I could possibly send you a stripchart application that I wrote, which accepts data from JSBSim over a socket. Matlab/Simulink is a good approach, but if you can't get any satisfaction from that route, and want to try a Windows app, let me know and I'll see what I can do about getting that to you. It's not open source, but I can make it available. Jon - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Epsilon, alpha_tail and independent tail contributions
I would need: CLtail = f(alpha_tail, delta_elevator) where alpha_tail = alpha_aircraft + horizontal_stab_angle - Epsilon src/jsbsim --aircraft=c172x --catalog The --catalog option will give you a list of all the properties that JSBSim defines and knows about. That is separate from FlightGear-specific properties that are part of the *interface* between FlightGear and JSBSim. JSBSim does have its own elevator deflection property. I don't understand the issue with the 747 model, and (unfortunately) I don't have time to look into it at the moment. Jon I am not talking about the elevator property, but about the horizontal stabilizer (HS)property, which seems to be missing in JSBSim. In most airliners and bussiness jets there is an all-moving HS, together with the elevator (and maybe also a trim-tab). Then I would need to refer to the HS current deflection (which the pilot changes in order to trim the aircraft pitching moment) in order to calculate the tail angle of attack : alpha_ac + HS - Epsilon. Here is the relevant part of the 747.xml as defined in the aircraft subdirectory that ships with JSBSim package. 1. Note that: descriptionLift_due_to_stabilizer_deflection/description 2. But: propertyfcs/speedbrake-pos-rad/property 3. My question is: why it uses speedbrake? function name=aero/coefficient/CLs 1. See here --- descriptionLift_due_to_stabilizer_deflection/description product propertyaero/qbar-psf/property propertymetrics/Sw-sqft/property 2. and here --- propertyfcs/speedbrake-pos-rad/property table independentVarvelocities/mach/independentVar tableData 0.0.8190 0.20000.7850 0.65000.7390 0.90000.8590 /tableData /table /product /function Fabian - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Epsilon, alpha_tail and independent tail contributions
First, thank you all for the direct answers to my question. Now, regarding the 737 sample case, it should be checked which flaps-slats combinations are normally possible; it may be the case where let's say flaps 20 cannot come with retracted slats (if there is a problem with the slats deployment you are allowed to use only flaps 0). Regarding the tables with infinite numbers of dimensions; I do not understand why this should be needed. The buildup concept used in JSBSim lets you specify delta of each coefficient for every aerodynamic surface (flaps, elevator, stabilizer, etc.) independently; JSBSim adds all that together. For the downwash, DATCOM could be executed first for the clean configuration, obtain Epsilon vs. alpha, then for certain airfoil representing one slat-flap combination, obtain the new Epsilon vs. alpha, and finally we can build a 2D table for deltaEpsilon vs. alpha vs. flaps. If the slat is another input, then 3D tables (with tableData breakpoints) are already applicable in JSBSim. We can then have one 2D table for slats 0, then another for slats 20, etc. The elevator sweeps could be done with flaps up, and then, this elevator effects included as another contribution in the aero buildup. One important issue in generating the independent contribution of each aero surface is that sometimes there are interferences between them; this can be significant for example between flaps and airbrakes. Finally, one short question: why there is no dedicated horizontal stabilizer property available in JSBSim, and we need to use for this the speedbrake property? Just curious... Fabian A couple problems that I've been addressing lately is that Datcom doesn't produce downwash angles when you drop flaps. Also, the elevator sweeps are a function of free-stream angle of attack (i.e., AOA at the wing, not the elevator). Another important omission from Datcom is that you can't drop flaps then do elevator sweeps. To me, these are important factors, since most of the crashes happen near the ground, when you have flaps and gear down. The FAA testing is heavy on near-ground performance, because that is where you get into the most trouble, such as losing an engine during take-off or landing. One approach that I've been considering is to calculate what the airfoil looks like when you lower the flaps, and input THAT as the airfoil, then do all of the normal calculations. For something like a 737 where you have leading and trailing edge flaps, you could easily get into 20 cases, with each case generating all of the coefficient tables (Cd, CL, CM, etc.). For a twin-prop aircraft, you just have trailing edge flaps, but you really need to run power effects at each flap setting, and you really should split the aircraft in half, since you could be flying on one engine. Engine thrust should be run at several settings, such as off, idle, cruise, and max, as a minimum. Interpolation between those power settings should be fairly accurate. Let me give you a good example. Twin engine prop aircraft, drop the flaps fully, you lose the right engine, and push the left one to max in order to climb. On the right side, you just have freestream airflow over the right wing, flap, rudder and elevator. On the left side, you have a prop blast hitting the wing, part of the flap, left side of the rudder, and most of the elevator. Ignoring the engine torque issue, you are going to experience different lift (higher on the left side) which creates a rolling moment. You will also experience different elevator control effectiveness right versus left. Rudder dynamic pressure might actually be different left versus right, creating a yawing moment, which is in addition to the thrust different left versus right. Now, is this a little overkill? Maybe, since most trainers that I've seen don't go into such details. It is possible to generate data for these cases, and I think it would yield higher fidelity trainers than anything seen before, simply because that kind of data hasn't been available before. The question I'm wrestling with is whether it is worth all the headaches. After all, we could end up with 60-80 times more data than what we currently deal with now. Any thoughts? Bill - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Epsilon, alpha_tail and independent tail contributions
See my comment after quotation... 2. I think what you are saying is: epsilon = f( alpha, flap, slat ) I don't think that you were advocating using two 2-D table epsilon(slat=0) = f ( alpha, flap ) epsilon(slat=20) = f ( alpha, flap ) If you were, there would have to be an interpolation done between these two tables in order to get the effects during transitions. Yes, that is important, because the dynamics of the aircraft during a surface change like that is examined by the FAA during qualification. I'm just guessing that we could cobble something together in the existing JSBSim structure to do an interpolation between these two tables. Indeed, I was talking about two 2-D tables, wrongly guessing that JSBSim would interpolate the data in case, let's say, the current slat position is not any of the specific slat for which the tables are defined. Such an interpolation would be quite accurate, being better the more 2-D tables we define. This would be a very useful feature, and although I am not a programmer, I guess (hopefully right this time...) that it wouldn't be hard to implement (Jon?). You are right with the failure cases of the flaps/slats logics; that complicate things, but maybe interpolations could still help. Now, if you add in thrust effects, you end up with: epsilon = f( alpha, flap, slat, thrust ) We are now at a 4-D table. In this example, the thrust effects on downwash could be evaluated in DATCOM+ for a clean configuration, once with zero thrust, then with an array of thrust coefficients, and finally calculating the difference relative to the zero thrust downwash. A table of delta_epsilon vs. Thrust_coeff could then be built. What is needed is just the thrust effect, without having to worry about flaps or slats. This difference in Epsilon should be added to the overall epsilon. I understand this can be done in JSBSim by using Functions (although I am still not sure I already know how to do it); is that right? Jon, if you are still here...regarding the horizontal stabilizer property I was indeed talking about JSBSim. I know there is a property for elevator deflection, but in many cases also the stabilizer moves to different angles for trimming the aircraft. Well, meanwhile I see there are two new replies in this thread, I hope my long story is still relevant... :) Fabian Bill p.s. You really have to stop paying me by the word ;-} - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Epsilon, alpha_tail and independent tail contributions
We could probably use the existing code to do that interpolation between two or more tables. It would just be really ugly. In the case of DATOM+ output, I'd have to generate that ugly code automatically. Well, it may be ugly and inaccurate, but for some cases the phisics could probably be quite close to a linear interpolation. Other than this, if we are not concerned with the transition between flaps,there is no problem with having many 2-D tables. What is needed is just the thrust effect, without having to worry about flaps or slats. I don't think that we can do that. Think about the twin-prop aircraft, flaps down versus flaps up, idle power versus full power. Prop blast (and epsilon) on the tail is going to be different for those case. Well, I was thinking of a citation type aircraft, where the airflow arriving at the tail may have been affected by the flaps, slats, etc., but how much it is deflected now by the jet at the tail can be taken independently. But even for a twin prop, it may be possible to take a similar approach: to evaluate how much the prop blast deflects the downwash, relative to the no-thrust case. The only issue may be that with full flaps down, the prop blast may be different than with flaps up (due to the flaps obstruction), and then, the thrust effect delta would be a number of 2-D tables: dEps_Thrust (flaps 0) = f (alpha, thrust coeff) dEps_Thrust (flaps 20) = f (alpha, thrust coeff) Fabian p.s.: where do they pay by the word? :) Bill - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Epsilon, alpha_tail and independent tail contributions
No assumptions are made for the horizontal stabilizer, whether it is all-moving, or is fixed with a movable surface. There is only a deflection associated with the surface, and that is used to index into an aero table. I am not quite sure what you need, or what you are referring to here. Using properties, one could define just about anything they want to. Can you be more descriptive about exactly what you want? I would need: CLtail = f(alpha_tail, delta_elevator) where alpha_tail = alpha_aircraft + horizontal_stab_angle - Epsilon Some time ago I've been told that this can be done using the speedbrake property (indeed this is the way it is done in the 747 example) as if it were the stabilizer (only a matter of names); that's OK, but I only wonder whay there is no stabilizer property, or is it? I hope this time I was more descriptive. Thanks. - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Epsilon, alpha_tail and independent tail contributions
Curerntly, as far as I understand, JSBSim does not support the buildup of the aerodynamic characteristics by taking the wing-body alone and adding the tail contribution. This is essential for example in investigating an aircraft behaviour during ice contaminated tailplane stall, a hot subject nowadays. For example, the total pitching moment would be: CM_wing-body + CLtail * tail_volume. Of course, the aero model should then need to include the downwash (Epsilon) at the tail (as a function of alpha, flaps, etc.) and CLtail vs. alpha_tail. My questions therefore are: 1. Is it possible to introduce Epsilon tables in the aircraft properties file? 2. Is it possible to have an option to evaluate alpha_tail (alpha_aircraft + horizontal_stab – Epsilon + dynamic components) whenever an Epsilon table is present in the properties file? This would be essential to calculate the tail lift and its contribution to the overall pitching moment. Regards, Fabián - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
