Re: [fonc] Macros, JSON
Hey John, If you don't mind me asking, what's the higher level goal of this tool you're making? Are you interested in transforming JSON? Querying JSON? If you're interested in queries, Freebase has a very nice graph query system (called MQL) where the user gives it a JSON structure as a query template, and the database does some graph traversal and returns a collection of JSON structures that match the template. I think it's a really nice system; you can see some examples here: http://www.freebase.com/query The basic idea is that your JSON query template has some key/values for it to match (eg: artist: The Police), and whatever values are left blank (eg: album: []) gets populated with results. It has the littany of standard database query features as well, like ordering and limits and ranges and whatnot: http://mql.freebaseapps.com Hope this helps! -- Chris On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 4:45 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: Or numbers for pointers... On Jul 21, 2013 3:43 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: I think what would be more difficult would be identifying what is persistent and what is runtime values. Also, JSON doesn't contain pointers, so one would have to use strings for pointers. On Jul 21, 2013 3:22 PM, James McCartney asy...@gmail.com wrote: I thought about this briefly. One issue is how to distinguish literal strings from identifiers. On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 10:28 AM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.comwrote: Hmm. I've been thinking about creating a macro language written in JSON that operates on JSON structures. Has someone done similar work? Should I just create a JavaScript AST in JSON? Or should I create an AST specifically for JSON manipulation? Thanks, John ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- --- james mccartney ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Macros, JSON
I was introduced to freebase by James Burke's (of Connections fame--highly recommended TV series) k-web project and played with it some. I am more interested in transforming JSON with macro-JSON, with the possibility of macro-JSON transforming itself. However if freebase has implemented some kind of historical gazetteer (including temporal information), that would interest me a lot. I imagine showing a globe collapsing as the speed of communication between points is reduced. What I mean by persistent below is things that remain constant between runs of a macro program. For example, in comparing a value to null, the null is made persistent in the macro, but not necessarily in the thing the macro is processing. Another thing that might be considered constant is the number of predicates in a conditional branch. My hope with macro-macro-JSON is to make those things more flexible. Perhaps even bordering on genetic algorithms. I am hoping to find a multiuser JSON editor with an excellent API. If EDN already has such an editor, I will consider using it. Pointers anyone? On Jul 22, 2013 6:14 PM, Chris Gahan ch...@ill-logic.com wrote: Hey John, If you don't mind me asking, what's the higher level goal of this tool you're making? Are you interested in transforming JSON? Querying JSON? If you're interested in queries, Freebase has a very nice graph query system (called MQL) where the user gives it a JSON structure as a query template, and the database does some graph traversal and returns a collection of JSON structures that match the template. I think it's a really nice system; you can see some examples here: http://www.freebase.com/query The basic idea is that your JSON query template has some key/values for it to match (eg: artist: The Police), and whatever values are left blank (eg: album: []) gets populated with results. It has the littany of standard database query features as well, like ordering and limits and ranges and whatnot: http://mql.freebaseapps.com Hope this helps! -- Chris On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 4:45 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: Or numbers for pointers... On Jul 21, 2013 3:43 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: I think what would be more difficult would be identifying what is persistent and what is runtime values. Also, JSON doesn't contain pointers, so one would have to use strings for pointers. On Jul 21, 2013 3:22 PM, James McCartney asy...@gmail.com wrote: I thought about this briefly. One issue is how to distinguish literal strings from identifiers. On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 10:28 AM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.comwrote: Hmm. I've been thinking about creating a macro language written in JSON that operates on JSON structures. Has someone done similar work? Should I just create a JavaScript AST in JSON? Or should I create an AST specifically for JSON manipulation? Thanks, John ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- --- james mccartney ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Macros, JSON
Well, I also think querying is a good idea. I think I will need the equivalent of XPath or perhaps XQuery for indexing stuff in JSON. I think I'm targetting my stuff to replace XSLT, if that is possible. I'd like it to be done with end-user programming inside and between editors. Something more concrete than XSLT. On Jul 22, 2013 6:14 PM, Chris Gahan ch...@ill-logic.com wrote: Hey John, If you don't mind me asking, what's the higher level goal of this tool you're making? Are you interested in transforming JSON? Querying JSON? If you're interested in queries, Freebase has a very nice graph query system (called MQL) where the user gives it a JSON structure as a query template, and the database does some graph traversal and returns a collection of JSON structures that match the template. I think it's a really nice system; you can see some examples here: http://www.freebase.com/query The basic idea is that your JSON query template has some key/values for it to match (eg: artist: The Police), and whatever values are left blank (eg: album: []) gets populated with results. It has the littany of standard database query features as well, like ordering and limits and ranges and whatnot: http://mql.freebaseapps.com Hope this helps! -- Chris On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 4:45 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: Or numbers for pointers... On Jul 21, 2013 3:43 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: I think what would be more difficult would be identifying what is persistent and what is runtime values. Also, JSON doesn't contain pointers, so one would have to use strings for pointers. On Jul 21, 2013 3:22 PM, James McCartney asy...@gmail.com wrote: I thought about this briefly. One issue is how to distinguish literal strings from identifiers. On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 10:28 AM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.comwrote: Hmm. I've been thinking about creating a macro language written in JSON that operates on JSON structures. Has someone done similar work? Should I just create a JavaScript AST in JSON? Or should I create an AST specifically for JSON manipulation? Thanks, John ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- --- james mccartney ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Macros, JSON
I thought about this briefly. One issue is how to distinguish literal strings from identifiers. On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 10:28 AM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: Hmm. I've been thinking about creating a macro language written in JSON that operates on JSON structures. Has someone done similar work? Should I just create a JavaScript AST in JSON? Or should I create an AST specifically for JSON manipulation? Thanks, John ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- --- james mccartney ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Macros, JSON
As an alternative to JSON you might consider EDN: https://github.com/edn-format/edn Alan On Jul 21, 2013, at 11:46 AM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: Hmm. I've been thinking about creating a macro language written in JSON that operates on JSON structures. Has someone done similar work? Should I just create a JavaScript AST in JSON? Or should I create an AST specifically for JSON manipulation? Thanks, John ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Macros, JSON
JSON is all well and good as far as lowest common denominators go. However, you might want to consider EDN: https://github.com/edn-format/edn On the other hand, if you are doing that then you might as well go *all* the way and re-invent half of Common Lisp :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun%27s_tenth_rule Alan Moore On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 10:28 AM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: Hmm. I've been thinking about creating a macro language written in JSON that operates on JSON structures. Has someone done similar work? Should I just create a JavaScript AST in JSON? Or should I create an AST specifically for JSON manipulation? Thanks, John ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Macros, JSON
You would have to create a JSON object which would have key (identifier), value pairs. On Jul 21, 2013 3:22 PM, James McCartney asy...@gmail.com wrote: I thought about this briefly. One issue is how to distinguish literal strings from identifiers. On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 10:28 AM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: Hmm. I've been thinking about creating a macro language written in JSON that operates on JSON structures. Has someone done similar work? Should I just create a JavaScript AST in JSON? Or should I create an AST specifically for JSON manipulation? Thanks, John ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- --- james mccartney ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Macros, JSON
I think what would be more difficult would be identifying what is persistent and what is runtime values. Also, JSON doesn't contain pointers, so one would have to use strings for pointers. On Jul 21, 2013 3:22 PM, James McCartney asy...@gmail.com wrote: I thought about this briefly. One issue is how to distinguish literal strings from identifiers. On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 10:28 AM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: Hmm. I've been thinking about creating a macro language written in JSON that operates on JSON structures. Has someone done similar work? Should I just create a JavaScript AST in JSON? Or should I create an AST specifically for JSON manipulation? Thanks, John ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- --- james mccartney ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Macros, JSON
Or numbers for pointers... On Jul 21, 2013 3:43 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: I think what would be more difficult would be identifying what is persistent and what is runtime values. Also, JSON doesn't contain pointers, so one would have to use strings for pointers. On Jul 21, 2013 3:22 PM, James McCartney asy...@gmail.com wrote: I thought about this briefly. One issue is how to distinguish literal strings from identifiers. On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 10:28 AM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.comwrote: Hmm. I've been thinking about creating a macro language written in JSON that operates on JSON structures. Has someone done similar work? Should I just create a JavaScript AST in JSON? Or should I create an AST specifically for JSON manipulation? Thanks, John ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- --- james mccartney ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Macros, JSON
What makes this important is whether your running in stateless or stateful mode. If you only run the macro once no big deal. If you try to run on a server, you may find that you need to reset items like cursors to their original values. On Jul 21, 2013 3:43 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: I think what would be more difficult would be identifying what is persistent and what is runtime values. Also, JSON doesn't contain pointers, so one would have to use strings for pointers. On Jul 21, 2013 3:22 PM, James McCartney asy...@gmail.com wrote: I thought about this briefly. One issue is how to distinguish literal strings from identifiers. On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 10:28 AM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.comwrote: Hmm. I've been thinking about creating a macro language written in JSON that operates on JSON structures. Has someone done similar work? Should I just create a JavaScript AST in JSON? Or should I create an AST specifically for JSON manipulation? Thanks, John ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- --- james mccartney ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Macros, JSON
Hmm. Seems like someone has already done XMLisp. I thought s-expressions were the lowest common denominator. JSON is all well and good as far as lowest common denominators go. However, you might want to consider EDN: https://github.com/edn-format/edn On the other hand, if you are doing that then you might as well go *all* the way and re-invent half of Common Lisp :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun%27s_tenth_rule Alan Moore On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 10:28 AM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: Hmm. I've been thinking about creating a macro language written in JSON that operates on JSON structures. Has someone done similar work? Should I just create a JavaScript AST in JSON? Or should I create an AST specifically for JSON manipulation? Thanks, John ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Macros, JSON
Lisp is such a joy to implement. FORTH is fun too.
I'm working on a scheme-alike on and off. The idea is to take the message
passing and delegation from Self, expose it in Lisp, and then map all of that
to JavaScript.
One idea I had when I was messing around with OMetaJS was that it might have
some kind of escape syntax like
(let ((x 1))
#{x++; }#
)
Would basically mean
(let ((x 1))
(+ x 1))
...which would make doing primitives feel pretty smooth, and also give you
the nice JSON syntax.
The rule is simple too, '#{' followed by anything:a up until '}#' - eval(a)
Only problem is relating environment context between the two languages, which I
haven't bothered to figure out yet. The JS eval() in this case is insufficient.
(Sorry about the pseudocode, on a phone and don't keep OMeta syntax in my
head...)
On Jul 21, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Alan Moore kahunamo...@closedsource.com wrote:
JSON is all well and good as far as lowest common denominators go. However,
you might want to consider EDN:
https://github.com/edn-format/edn
On the other hand, if you are doing that then you might as well go *all* the
way and re-invent half of Common Lisp :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun%27s_tenth_rule
Alan Moore
On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 10:28 AM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote:
Hmm. I've been thinking about creating a macro language written in JSON that
operates on JSON structures. Has someone done similar work? Should I just
create a JavaScript AST in JSON? Or should I create an AST specifically for
JSON manipulation?
Thanks,
John
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Re: [fonc] Macros, JSON
Probably a more usable language would be arrived upon via some extensions to JSON. May I recommend OMetaJS? :) The lack of a unique atomic symbolic literal as distinct from a string is one of the things I'm grappling with right now. To get that I'd need to intern the atoms. Jury's out whether it's a good idea to try to used JS typed arrays to implement the symbol interning or to use an under the hood tag on the string at the intermediate level to distinguish them (hidden from the programmer who just sees a Lisp alike.) On Jul 21, 2013, at 1:45 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: Or numbers for pointers... On Jul 21, 2013 3:43 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: I think what would be more difficult would be identifying what is persistent and what is runtime values. Also, JSON doesn't contain pointers, so one would have to use strings for pointers. On Jul 21, 2013 3:22 PM, James McCartney asy...@gmail.com wrote: I thought about this briefly. One issue is how to distinguish literal strings from identifiers. On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 10:28 AM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: Hmm. I've been thinking about creating a macro language written in JSON that operates on JSON structures. Has someone done similar work? Should I just create a JavaScript AST in JSON? Or should I create an AST specifically for JSON manipulation? Thanks, John ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- --- james mccartney ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Macros, JSON
All this talk of macros and quotes reminds me that there is Kernel language
where they are extraneous (if I understand it correctly). Operative and
applicative combiners are used explicitly:
http://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/ETD/Available/etd-090110-124904/unrestricted/jshutt.pdf
On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 5:06 PM, Casey Ransberger
casey.obrie...@gmail.comwrote:
Lisp is such a joy to implement. FORTH is fun too.
I'm working on a scheme-alike on and off. The idea is to take the message
passing and delegation from Self, expose it in Lisp, and then map all of
that to JavaScript.
One idea I had when I was messing around with OMetaJS was that it might
have some kind of escape syntax like
(let ((x 1))
#{x++; }#
)
Would basically mean
(let ((x 1))
(+ x 1))
...which would make doing primitives feel pretty smooth, and also give
you the nice JSON syntax.
The rule is simple too, '#{' followed by anything:a up until '}#' -
eval(a)
Only problem is relating environment context between the two languages,
which I haven't bothered to figure out yet. The JS eval() in this case is
insufficient.
(Sorry about the pseudocode, on a phone and don't keep OMeta syntax in my
head...)
On Jul 21, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Alan Moore kahunamo...@closedsource.com
wrote:
JSON is all well and good as far as lowest common denominators go.
However, you might want to consider EDN:
https://github.com/edn-format/edn
On the other hand, if you are doing that then you might as well go *all*
the way and re-invent half of Common Lisp :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun%27s_tenth_rule
Alan Moore
On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 10:28 AM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote:
Hmm. I've been thinking about creating a macro language written in JSON
that operates on JSON structures. Has someone done similar work? Should I
just create a JavaScript AST in JSON? Or should I create an AST
specifically for JSON manipulation?
Thanks,
John
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Re: [fonc] Macros, JSON
On 7/21/2013 12:28 PM, John Carlson wrote: Hmm. I've been thinking about creating a macro language written in JSON that operates on JSON structures. Has someone done similar work? Should I just create a JavaScript AST in JSON? Or should I create an AST specifically for JSON manipulation? my scripting language mostly uses S-Expressions for its AST format. my C frontend mostly used an XML variant. I had a few times considered a hybrid, essentially like XML with a more compact syntax (*1). in the future, most likely I would just use S-Expressions. while S-Exps are slightly more effort in some cases to extend, they are generally faster than manipulating XML, and are easier to work with. JSON could work, but its syntax is slightly more than what is needed for something like this, and its data representation isn't necessarily ideal. EDN looks ok. *1: node := '' tag (key'='value)* node* '' tag key=value tag2 key2=val2 tag3 where value was a literal value with one of several types, IIRC: integer type; floating-point type; string. note that there were no free-floating raw values. a free-floating value would instead be wrapped in a node. had also considered using square braces: [array [int val=1234] [real val=3.14] [string val=string] [symbol val=symbol]] the allowed forms would otherwise have been fairly constrained. the constrained structure would be mostly for sake of performance and similar. note: the XML variant used by my C frontend also ended up (quietly) adding support for raw numeric values, mostly because of the added overhead of converting between strings and numbers. Thanks, John ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
